Joe , I just wanted to drop this compliment. Your videos are interesting and seem to generate a lot a comments , you have built a little community here and it has grown naturally, Way to be man. I feel like I alway learn something and find your viewers informed and eloquent. Great Job 👍
Thanks very much, Jason! I think that cyclists, and recumbent riders in particular, are usually informed and eloquent (and you can include yourself in that group). :)
I really enjoy your videos and I have learned a lot from them. I hate the drag from my flags but I feel it is necessary, but then I also have some lights on also.
Thanks for the kind words, David! Yep, flags are really needed on the open road. Sometimes I go with lights only when I'm on sleepy residential streets, but even then I'd be better off with the flag and lights. :)
Joe, sitting on the flag and the way he talks, remembered an episode of the novel, The Old Man and the Sea, from Ernest Hemingway, when the old man returns from the sea, his sails resembled a battered flag, a broken army …😂
@@toshaveornottoshave-4804 The movie was unusual. It was images, with mostly narration (lines from the book) read over the images with the actors only saying a few lines. But with most movies made from books, can only approximate the book.
Nice video, would love to see you with a spoke cover , disc or Trispoke , for me the addtion of a disc on back was very significant. Enough so that I purchased a 20 inch 406 carbon fiber trispoke. I plan to run it tubeless. Love the Aero D stuff and I believe your right about the bags .
Was going to comment same about wheel covers being the next test comparison. I could imagine that same downhill used to aero test sidebags, top boxes, etc. some pannier bags might even improve speed!
I had really mixed results with tubeless in the 406 size. $88/each. The best mileage for one pair was 1300 miles. Another only 500. Nothing varied. Same pressure, alignment perfect…worn through to inner layer. I use a tubeless on the rear 700c (Goodyear Eagle 1) which has held up fine. Shows almost no wear in 1000 miles. I’m of the impression that Schwalbe has some work to do on quality control. The 406 have been out of stock for months. I love the feel and puncture resistance but that’s where the love ends. Not worth the money and short life span.
@@markrobinson891 Thanks for the feedback Mark . I will probably be a hard head and try anyway , my intention is just for the rear wheel as it is already tubeless optimal due to there being no spoke holes , its interesting about the tire wear , I've had similar things happen where everything seemed to be same conditions but greatly different wear life, right now I'm using Continental Contact Speed tires , they are narrow , light weight and supple , they feel much faster and supple than the Marathon racers I had on previously, I noticed the basket ball tread was gone after just 100 miles but after that have no other signs of tire wear , being completely honest I have had one puncture so far . I like these tires so much I purchased a second set of 3 for when these wear out .
@@jasonnealey8325 You sound like me ie hard head. Yes, no spoke holes will be one variable. Taping is an exact science. I used the Conti on a Lighting P38 and liked it. A bit hard to find. I have Kojaks on the fronts currently. They look like balloons compared to the tubeless but they work pretty well. Wear is good. I use sealant in the tubes too. I miss the supple ride of tubeless. I ran about 50 psi. The Kojaks feel sluggish at lower than 80.
What is the weight difference of the riders. My wife and I ride Catrike 559's. She weighs 102 pounds, I weigh 185 pounds. Her trike is lighter than mine due to the different types of electric drives and batteries. With no assist being used on either trike, I will always catch and pass her on a downhill due to my trike and body weight being heavier. It's a matter of physics.
Ok, I didn’t watch yet but am commenting on your initial statement. If you switch the flag to the other trike you are testing for multiple dependents. Simply run the flag on one trike and compare it to the same trike without the flag.
Hi Matt! That would be the most efficient and scientific way to do it, but there would be no visuals for a video. :) In the video, the flag falls off the trike and it's pretty obvious what kind of drag the flag is having.
I have a T-cycle bottle mount for two bottle cages which places them directly between my knees. I love how easy it is to grab the bottles but I’ve wondered about the extra wind drag compared with the cages under the hard shell saddle. I’m sure I’ll continue to wonder. Everything only seems to matter at higher speeds. My flag sits about six feet in the air. It has never fallen out even during a couple of steep descents at close to 50mph. My saddle is slightly more inclined which may be the variable. I was on a recent ride and met up with my wife and daughter. On the way home she took cell phone video from behind. I was very interested to find that the red blinking light (Cygolight hotshot pro 200) on the back of my neck rest was far more visible from a greater distance than the flag. I’m also on a search for wheel covers. So far no luck.
Yep, when we were testing the LARGE fairings on the Gold Rush and the Rocket they only seemed to help once we really got up to speed. Heck, your water bottles might be working to smooth the air out in front of you and make you faster! Those Cygolights seem to get brighter the farther away you get from them!
@@bikestrikesrazors I just bought a large fairing. I care more about extending my season as it gets cold in Utah than any hopes for increased speeds. Mostly all bets are off since no two days match.
I think the flag is more useful for being seen by vehicles stopped at cross streets, who may not see an approaching trike at ground level but will see an undulating flag or flashing light on a mast.
Hey, Tim! Didn't measure (would have been an good idea) but as I recall, there wasn't enough wind to notice it. Of course, that doesn't mean that it wasn't effecting outcomes!
Hey, David! As I said, it really depends on what you're doing. You don't carry a spare tire in a race car. For regular use, yes, it would be highly advisable. :)
True, Ian! Most of us that ride (trikes or bikes) aren't trying to break any land speed records. :) The headwinds on my rides are usually so bad, the flag wouldn't matter anyway!
I think one great point is we all have different trikes different reasons for riding recumbents , I certainly don't look down on anyone , you want e- assist ? I say more power to you , you want 2 flags ? Go man Go . You want to be Aero D as possible? Wear a skin suit ? Put on a disc , study your position? Go man Go . I know when I see another triker I always acknowledge them even the hand crank trikers . I used to be a road bike racer , I was best at time trial , and find myself sort of obsessed with Aero Dynamics. So one day you Guys might all be laughing at me being out of touch , I was thinking of building a rear fairing out of flag poles and rubberized Spandex . Make a frame out of fiberglass poles like they used to build airplanes out of wood and cloth . Best wishes
Great video. Lots of variables to consider in such a comparison test.where I ride on Cape Cod and many seaside and mountain New England trails the winds are extraordinary. I always try to ride the outward half into the wind so I can rip it on the return. Sometimes Mother Nature messes with me and the expected prevailing wind is reversed and uh oh! When I ride segregated designated trails without traffic interaction I never use flags. When I am going to enter traffic I always use two flags with bright colors and I have no concern about speed. Just want to return safely.
@@markfeldman6509 Hey, Mark! Yep, doesn't matter how fast you ride if you don't make it home! :) I thought I was the only one that was able to find a head wind on the way out and the way back!
Tadpoles sit so low - the height of both your flags - suggests you have them more for 'looks' - than safety? If you are riding off-road / trails / bike paths - no problem. If you are riding in traffic, the 'safety' aspect has been compromised, almost to the point of being useless.
Hi Randy! I ride at high speeds and the long flag poles were whipping all over the place. I originally cut my pole down to try and stop that, but eventually, the flag just ripped off the pole, then kept flying out of the holder. I mostly ride on trails with no flag these days, but when I'm out on the streets, I often have to go back and look for my flag that fell off somewhere along the way. I also have another, very large flag I take when I really need to be visible. You can see that flag in some of my earlier videos.
@@bikestrikesrazors Might I recommend a thicker pole (that won't bend), plus NOT going back at an angle - but fastened so it sticks up. VISIBILITY is Job One and you are losing 12 to 18 inches in height the faster you go. Riding a Delta, I am continually amazed at how much lower the Tadpoles I see, are.
@@randysmitchell4810 Thanks, Randy. The angle of the pole and the thickness is limited by the flag holder attached to the seat. I'd really need to rig something special up to put a thicker and straighter pole on. Something to look into. But, like I said, I really do most of my trike riding on trails these days. Too many close calls with car folks not looking (at all) where they are going. Thanks again for the comment!
Your experiment is meaningless because it includes too many variables that are not controlled for. Here's how to do it: 1) Select a downhill course on which to conduct the test. 2) Define a fixed start line and end line. 3) Use only one rider on the same trike with the same flag on the same course. 4) Set the trike with its front wheels on the start line. Simultaneously release the brakes and start a timer. Do not pedal. 5) Stop the timer when the trike crosses the end line. 6) Run the test 10 times alternating five times with a flag and five times without a flag. 7) Calculate the average times with and without a flag. 8) Compare the averages to determine if there's a significant difference between the flagged and unflagged runs. While there may be some minor variables that are not controlled for, these results should be far more telling.
Joe , I just wanted to drop this compliment.
Your videos are interesting and seem to generate a lot a comments , you have built a little community here and it has grown naturally, Way to be man. I feel like I alway learn something and find your viewers informed and eloquent.
Great Job 👍
Thanks very much, Jason! I think that cyclists, and recumbent riders in particular, are usually informed and eloquent (and you can include yourself in that group). :)
Thanks again! It really shows that the distance gained from reduced drag without the flag is pretty minimal unless it was a long haul upwind.
Best recumbent site ever!
Always enjoyable, as well as educational.
Thanks very much, Gary, and thanks for watching!
Very insightful! Looking at flags now. 😊
Thanks for watching, Gandy!
Great observation. Thank you.
Thanks for watching, SC!
Somewhat fair,
I really enjoy your videos and I have learned a lot from them. I hate the drag from my flags but I feel it is necessary, but then I also have some lights on also.
Thanks for the kind words, David! Yep, flags are really needed on the open road. Sometimes I go with lights only when I'm on sleepy residential streets, but even then I'd be better off with the flag and lights. :)
Joe, sitting on the flag and the way he talks, remembered an episode of the novel, The Old Man and the Sea, from Ernest Hemingway, when the old man returns from the sea, his sails resembled a battered flag, a broken army …😂
Just watched the film with Spencer Tracy! Great movie! :)
@@bikestrikesrazors If there is a book or search on the Internet, this plot, then as Hemingway describes it, no director will be able to convey…
@@toshaveornottoshave-4804 The movie was unusual. It was images, with mostly narration (lines from the book) read over the images with the actors only saying a few lines. But with most movies made from books, can only approximate the book.
Super!!!
Thank you! Cheers!
Nice video, would love to see you with a spoke cover , disc or Trispoke , for me the addtion of a disc on back was very significant.
Enough so that I purchased a 20 inch 406 carbon fiber trispoke. I plan to run it tubeless.
Love the Aero D stuff and I believe your right about the bags .
Was going to comment same about wheel covers being the next test comparison. I could imagine that same downhill used to aero test sidebags, top boxes, etc. some pannier bags might even improve speed!
Thanks for the ideas, guys! I'd love to give wheel covers or a disc wheel a try!
I had really mixed results with tubeless in the 406 size. $88/each. The best mileage for one pair was 1300 miles. Another only 500. Nothing varied. Same pressure, alignment perfect…worn through to inner layer. I use a tubeless on the rear 700c (Goodyear Eagle 1) which has held up fine. Shows almost no wear in 1000 miles. I’m of the impression that Schwalbe has some work to do on quality control. The 406 have been out of stock for months. I love the feel and puncture resistance but that’s where the love ends. Not worth the money and short life span.
@@markrobinson891 Thanks for the feedback Mark .
I will probably be a hard head and try anyway , my intention is just for the rear wheel as it is already tubeless optimal due to there being no spoke holes , its interesting about the tire wear , I've had similar things happen where everything seemed to be same conditions but greatly different wear life, right now I'm using Continental Contact Speed tires , they are narrow , light weight and supple , they feel much faster and supple than the Marathon racers I had on previously, I noticed the basket ball tread was gone after just 100 miles but after that have no other signs of tire wear , being completely honest I have had one puncture so far .
I like these tires so much I purchased a second set of 3 for when these wear out .
@@jasonnealey8325 You sound like me ie hard head. Yes, no spoke holes will be one variable. Taping is an exact science. I used the Conti on a Lighting P38 and liked it. A bit hard to find. I have Kojaks on the fronts currently. They look like balloons compared to the tubeless but they work pretty well. Wear is good. I use sealant in the tubes too. I miss the supple ride of tubeless. I ran about 50 psi. The Kojaks feel sluggish at lower than 80.
What is the weight difference of the riders. My wife and I ride Catrike 559's. She weighs 102 pounds, I weigh 185 pounds. Her trike is lighter than mine due to the different types of electric drives and batteries. With no assist being used on either trike, I will always catch and pass her on a downhill due to my trike and body weight being heavier. It's a matter of physics.
Hey, Tanker! At that point in time, Rich and I were very close in weight. One of the advantages of being twin brothers. :)
Your videos are entertaining and very helpful. Have you tried a streamer style flag, such as the Saratoga Sun Creations flag?
Hi Eric and thanks for watching! I haven't tried a streamer type flag yet. I've had the small ICE flag and a large, triangular American flag.
Ok, I didn’t watch yet but am commenting on your initial statement. If you switch the flag to the other trike you are testing for multiple dependents. Simply run the flag on one trike and compare it to the same trike without the flag.
Hi Matt! That would be the most efficient and scientific way to do it, but there would be no visuals for a video. :) In the video, the flag falls off the trike and it's pretty obvious what kind of drag the flag is having.
I have a T-cycle bottle mount for two bottle cages which places them directly between my knees. I love how easy it is to grab the bottles but I’ve wondered about the extra wind drag compared with the cages under the hard shell saddle. I’m sure I’ll continue to wonder. Everything only seems to matter at higher speeds. My flag sits about six feet in the air. It has never fallen out even during a couple of steep descents at close to 50mph. My saddle is slightly more inclined which may be the variable. I was on a recent ride and met up with my wife and daughter. On the way home she took cell phone video from behind. I was very interested to find that the red blinking light (Cygolight hotshot pro 200) on the back of my neck rest was far more visible from a greater distance than the flag. I’m also on a search for wheel covers. So far no luck.
Yep, when we were testing the LARGE fairings on the Gold Rush and the Rocket they only seemed to help once we really got up to speed. Heck, your water bottles might be working to smooth the air out in front of you and make you faster!
Those Cygolights seem to get brighter the farther away you get from them!
@@bikestrikesrazors I just bought a large fairing. I care more about extending my season as it gets cold in Utah than any hopes for increased speeds. Mostly all bets are off since no two days match.
I think the flag is more useful for being seen by vehicles stopped at cross streets, who may not see an approaching trike at ground level but will see an undulating flag or flashing light on a mast.
Were the weight of each trike with accessories, the position of accessories, and the weight of each rider determined prior to each run?
With everything taken into account, my trike (Joe's) with me on it, was likely about ten pounds heavier than Rich's.
Wind speed & direction?
Hey, Tim! Didn't measure (would have been an good idea) but as I recall, there wasn't enough wind to notice it. Of course, that doesn't mean that it wasn't effecting outcomes!
Really? Like taking the spare tire out of your car to save weight. You only need a roof when it rains.
Hey, David! As I said, it really depends on what you're doing. You don't carry a spare tire in a race car. For regular use, yes, it would be highly advisable. :)
Yeap the flags is definitely slowing you down
That's certainly the way it looks, Haha! Thanks for watching!
I don’t care if it slows me down. I ride for exercise not olympic medals. I just want to be as visible as possible. I actually have two flags.
True, Ian! Most of us that ride (trikes or bikes) aren't trying to break any land speed records. :) The headwinds on my rides are usually so bad, the flag wouldn't matter anyway!
I think one great point is we all have different trikes different reasons for riding recumbents , I certainly don't look down on anyone , you want e- assist ? I say more power to you , you want 2 flags ? Go man Go .
You want to be Aero D as possible?
Wear a skin suit ? Put on a disc , study your position? Go man Go .
I know when I see another triker I always acknowledge them even the hand crank trikers .
I used to be a road bike racer , I was best at time trial , and find myself sort of obsessed with Aero Dynamics.
So one day you Guys might all be laughing at me being out of touch , I was thinking of building a rear fairing out of flag poles and rubberized Spandex .
Make a frame out of fiberglass poles like they used to build airplanes out of wood and cloth .
Best wishes
Great video. Lots of variables to consider in such a comparison test.where I ride on Cape Cod and many seaside and mountain New England trails the winds are extraordinary. I always try to ride the outward half into the wind so I can rip it on the return. Sometimes Mother Nature messes with me and the expected prevailing wind is reversed and uh oh! When I ride segregated designated trails without traffic interaction I never use flags. When I am going to enter traffic I always use two flags with bright colors and I have no concern about speed. Just want to return safely.
@@jasonnealey8325 Exactly, Jason!
@@markfeldman6509 Hey, Mark! Yep, doesn't matter how fast you ride if you don't make it home! :) I thought I was the only one that was able to find a head wind on the way out and the way back!
Tadpoles sit so low - the height of both your flags - suggests you have them more for 'looks' - than safety? If you are riding off-road / trails / bike paths - no problem. If you are riding in traffic, the 'safety' aspect has been compromised, almost to the point of being useless.
Hi Randy! I ride at high speeds and the long flag poles were whipping all over the place. I originally cut my pole down to try and stop that, but eventually, the flag just ripped off the pole, then kept flying out of the holder. I mostly ride on trails with no flag these days, but when I'm out on the streets, I often have to go back and look for my flag that fell off somewhere along the way. I also have another, very large flag I take when I really need to be visible. You can see that flag in some of my earlier videos.
@@bikestrikesrazors Might I recommend a thicker pole (that won't bend), plus NOT going back at an angle - but fastened so it sticks up. VISIBILITY is Job One and you are losing 12 to 18 inches in height the faster you go. Riding a Delta, I am continually amazed at how much lower the Tadpoles I see, are.
@@randysmitchell4810 Thanks, Randy. The angle of the pole and the thickness is limited by the flag holder attached to the seat. I'd really need to rig something special up to put a thicker and straighter pole on. Something to look into. But, like I said, I really do most of my trike riding on trails these days. Too many close calls with car folks not looking (at all) where they are going. Thanks again for the comment!
Your experiment is meaningless because it includes too many variables that are not controlled for. Here's how to do it:
1) Select a downhill course on which to conduct the test.
2) Define a fixed start line and end line.
3) Use only one rider on the same trike with the same flag on the same course.
4) Set the trike with its front wheels on the start line. Simultaneously release the brakes and start a timer. Do not pedal.
5) Stop the timer when the trike crosses the end line.
6) Run the test 10 times alternating five times with a flag and five times without a flag.
7) Calculate the average times with and without a flag.
8) Compare the averages to determine if there's a significant difference between the flagged and unflagged runs.
While there may be some minor variables that are not controlled for, these results should be far more telling.
Thanks very much for the suggestions, Patrick!