Can't help but think that Ezio was behind the transition from peace to freedom considering the events of brotherhood and revelations involving the liberation of rome and constantinopolis from the borgia/byzantines
It seems that Haythem genuinely wanted Connor to come around to his way of thinking he had plenty of chances to get the drop on Conner but chose not to
Me too! He and Shay are my favorites, cause they both showed there are two sides for every story and they are not the bad guys at all, it's all about relativity. As you said, his words fit perfectly today either, that's amazing. His vision of world, way ahead his time! I simply love him!
Rafael Cerquetani That's why they made you play with him at the beggining. You didn't even noticed he was a Templar until he said it, and here he described every corrupt democracy in the world and Revolution.
And the amount of corrupted individuals in Templar is ridiculous merely because they must be the bad guys. Many of them didn't even try to up hold the ideal itself, merely spouting it as justification for whatever they desire.
Haytham is the embodiment of his exact words. Templars want purpose. He seeks and delivers it, unlike all the other templars who just went on a power trip. We need more villains like Haytham.
I wish they got more into *what* purpose the templars seek. Haytham sounds like he is speaking for those who were not represented, then again he could be just as callous in his goal for power.
@@breakingboundaries3950 His goals are ambitious, but not his quest for power, he wanted to unite all the best in Assassins and Templars, America is the land of opportunity and he wanted to create something new, something that could end the eternal conflict. An idea cannot be defeated simply by killing its followers, he wanted to offer an alternative.
@@Andriy_Sklyar But Haytham was ignorant. The Templars Connor killed didn't share his goal for the new world. They would have been corrupted and turn America into a world order that would have been oppressive.
Kind of. Long story short he was kind of forced and had no choice to join the Templars, so he started having doubts around this time but I think since Connor entered the image he tried to convince himself once more it was true. It was just before his death that he admitted the Templars were flawed, and even then he never said he wished for the path of an Assassin, but rather a road in between the two. This is why he tried so hard to convince Connor the Templars were right, and in Connor's deleted epilogue he also admits that he wanted to have a peace between them. Jennifer, his half-sister, also wanted a peace between the two Orders and gave the letters, I believe it may have been Haytham's letters to her, actually, to Elise with the hopes that the Templar would take in Haytham's words and try to unite the Templars and Assassins.
And who will give the Templar's direction and guidance. Who is to stop people like the Borgias from abusing absolute power? The templar logic is flawed on a fundamental level. They are no better than any other organisation and suffers from the same weaknesses everyone else is. Are you so quick to throw away you freedom and democracy because of some fancy words?
iam afraid not the fancy words that lure us into templar. its the meaning behind that word. freedom is peace? connor said. perhaps, but freedom without tolerance and responsiblity only cause chaos and criminality as in a step one for an invitation to chaos. what im trying to say is freedom is good and nice and also a core for every single individual in order to reach happiness but then again if everything is permitted, none is safe
can you blame shay he followed orders and a whole city filled with thousands of people got destroyed and all of them died yet he was the only one that cared not all assassin bossess would let something like that happen but his just fucked up horribly and shay was the karma he deserved.
AC3 was horribly underrated. I’ve honestly understood where The Templars are coming from on more than one occasion but I’m an Assassin through and through.
@@unicorntomboy9736 Westworld season 3 is centered around the theme of peace and order through control vs freedom no matter what, and thus feels like it is what the AC movie should've been like. I heavily recommend you check it out.
In reality no, he's not. When the revolution ends many of those in Congress, our founding fathers, end up losing their fortunes as well as their lives trying win the war. The more well known ones go on to create the constitution that has stood the test of time. Washington of course was the greatest because he gave up his power time again despite everyone calling for him to be king. The affection for the people to have freedom and rule themselves was absolutely genuine and we know it is because of their actions.
Literally this words should be add to the fact of the ending of AC3 Connor only gets "affection" from the Brotherhood, the Village he made and his family if you read the comics U.S.A dont care about the Connors
I really miss these type of meaningful dialogues AC used to have…Ever since odyssey it feels like the characters are reading off a script written by ChatGPT. It’s so uninteresting and corny… Especially since they hardly use actual cutscenes anymore everything looks so stiff. SMH ubisoft man
More than meaningful. This game’s characters, acting, and plot made it the only reason I finished it. Every time I saw Haytham or Achilles on the screen I just wanted more of them and couldn’t stop playing
And it was at this moment I realized both the Templars and Assassins goal will never be met. They each want peace with opposing ideologies. Neither are good or bad and I have decided that the Templars and Assassins will continue to play this game and I will not choose a side because either way I will be wrong. There is no such thing as true freedom or true order. In freedom there will be chaos and in order there will be tyranny. Order means government control over everything and freedom means lawlessness. There either has to be balance or a new way to unite people. You preach peace yet all you do is fight a war against each other. I am no knight and I don't need a creed. But I will fight for a better world without your silly feud and your flawed ideas of how things should be.
Agree. They are really no different from each other. They both want the world for themselves. They only dress it up by saying for the greater good. To free humanity. Who are they to put themselves above others? To decide what is best for every individual.
Assassins Templars. They're both extremists. Assassins want freedom without control because of that there is war, crime, inequality. Because Assassins fail to understand the weakness of humanity. Templars want peace through control and because of that the people's urge for freedom causes them to revolt. Which eventually leads to war. But if I have to choose, I'd rather be a Templar I understand the importance of freedom but because the frailty of human nature their freedom must be regulated. Haytham was right in my opinion. Yes, Birch lied to him but he chose to stay because maybe he saw what Birch did wrong and he wanted to do what he thought was right as a Templar. And yeah I guess you're right about Connor cutting ties with Haytham. But in the end Connor understood his father and even regretted killing him after reading his journal.
I think the biggest mistake everyone makes is thinking that absolute piece is possible. It's human nature to fight, while we can do things to bring more peace and make things better we can never bring it absolutely. Anger, hate, corruption etc these things will always exist.
This scene defines a turning point in what you think is right, are the templars that bad after all? The story really plays with your mind from here on.
its the first game that shows the Templars as actual human beings and not just "the bad guy". There was plenty of grey area and in all honesty Haytham was the best character up there with Ezio, he not only made sense in his statements and intentions for the order but also had noble goals and i'd argue connor, the assassin, for the first time was actually in the wrong for what he was up to by killing off Templars. Im looking forward to Haythams appearance in Assassins Creed Rogue.
@@imortalizer50k wrong the first game to show the templars arent evil was ac 1 sure what they were doing was bad but if you pay attention to the white room confessions each templar target you kill thought what they were doing was the right thing
Of course they’re still bad. They’re fascists. Haytham makes good points about the founding fathers and their true motives, but he admitted the only difference between them is he doesn’t feign affection, that doesn’t make haytham good, just more honest. The templars seek order through control, tyranny, the assassins are still the best out of all the groups, even if their ideology is a bit unrealistic, freedom is the most admirable goal of theirs
They started ww2 and with the apple of eden control everyone the why to make things the way they want it just cause millions dead, the holocaust, and the horror of unit 731.
0:19 I love the turn around from Haytham, right before that he was still being somewhat distant and dickish to Connor. However when Connor asks him more about the templars his tone shifts and his demeanor changes, he was thinking “if there was a chance to change his mind, it’s now”. It really sold me on him truly wanting to change Connor’s perspective and be a family
There’s a second meaning to the A in Assassin and the T in Templar: Anarchist and Tyrant. Haytham is living proof that you don’t need to be a tyrant to be a Templar, that you don’t need to own and manipulate people to give them safe and happy lives.
@@GhostInPajamas Except that he also further makes the point that the Founders were privileged cucks, oligarchs with silver spoons in their mouths, who made the decision to "represent the wishes of the people" in private. This is something that is both historically referenced as well as in-game. His statement on freedom being misguided isn't wrong with that context in mind, because they, as he said, dressed up the "freedom" that they were giving with pretty words.
@@NagandEmerald when you think about how many historical figures just died from their antics Like people that without the world wouldn’t function with, or how much of information has been censored some of which could just advance technology to the space age was stumped by them
There are two types of Templars. Those who are only interested in personal power, and then those like Haytham who believe in their original 'ideals'. These are the more dangerous Templars, for while those who seek power can be satiated, those with a cause will NEVER stop. And that is what gives the Assassins their strength. They fight only for a cause. Such is the purpose of the Creed.
True. The Borgias were just power hungry tyrants. Hell, Rodrigo was going to leave the assassins alone after AC2 and just keep whatever power he had. Ezio was going to leave things as is as well, but Cesare decided to antagonize the assassins, which caused the Borgia's downfall.
@7zilly Al Mualim was a Templar before he created the Brotherhood and his true motive was to kill the other Templars so he could have the Apple of Eden for himself. So really, the Brotherhood had different motives to begin with rather than being completely corrupt.
@@ViolentGenius Al Mualim didn't create the Brotherhood. Apparently he was initially an Assaasin but was swayed by the Templars and brought over to their side. But by that point Al Mualim was already the leader of the Assassins. Which is why he manipulated Altair to do his dirty work because he couldn't have afforded to betray them directly. Though obviously they learnt of his treachery by the time Altair had assassinated his first target. Correct me if I'm wrong. Al Mualim was just an Assassin that defected to the Templars. Or maybe he was a Templar acting undercover as an Assassin and managed to rise to the rank of Mentor, but decided to use the Brotherhood for his own selfish goals until Altair caught on and defeated him.
The colonial brotherhood, what made Achilles a good mentor? It was seeing that his own hubris would lead to the death and destruction of the world. Claiming the assassins had the responsibility to maintain peace in the world was just an excuse to do whatever was necessary to get pieces of Eden. If shay hadn’t defected or had died when he fell of the cliff. Achilles and his brotherhood would have destroyed the world
“The only difference Connor, the ONLY difference between myself and those you aid is I do not feign affection!” I love how open to interpretation this is On one hand this could be read as “the people you aid don’t care, atleast I outwardly tell you I don’t care! Or “the people you aid don’t care, where I ACTUALLY do!” From the perspective of the Connor it’s the first, from the perspective of Haytham it’s the second. Connor is stoic and traumatized yet young and optimistic, haytham is cold and calculating and also traumatized yet still has a sense of greater good and love for his son.
The tricky part about Templars is distinguishing between members who truly believe in the ideals like Haytham, and members who are just in it for the benefits like Cesare. Humans being humans, I think people like Haytham are quite rare in their ranks.
Well, Grand Master Torres, for instance, boosted Cuba's economy, created charities for hospitals and such, built up Havana's defenses to protect the citizens, and opposed piracy and also slavery, uttering his disgust for the latter towards Prins and scolding Woods Rogers for not getting rid of his slave ships. He also wanted to find the Observatory for the purpose of ultimate truth, to snuff out lies and ensure justice. Doesn't sound like a monster to me. George Monroe's vision was to protect the people and make sure they can prosper. He shared that vision with Shay Cormac, and encouraged him to defeat the gangs that were terrorizing citizens (with the support of the Assassin, one might add) and help them renovate their homes/business. While they are corrupt Templars, Haytham Kenway is certainly not the only one with good intentions. And there are a lot of Templars with good intentions whose actions are merly misunderstood (perhaps on purpose) to be acts of tyranny. Like William Johnson wanting to purchase land of the Iroquois in order to protect them, as the Templars realized that the colonists would turn against the natives.
This has got to be one of my favorite scenes of the whole franchise it really makes me think and side with both factions despite their differences they both want the same thing peace and justice
As a young teen I thought the assassin's were the 'good guys' at least in the first. But haytham shattered that view when he calls out what the brotherhood became. He had said that the templar want order and I believe him, control through order whilst using brutal exacting actions to maintain it. Is why no matter how many templar the assassins kill they can't ever be fully defeated, hence why there are still so many AC games still being released (other than continuing sales)
I was teen when i played this, during that time i played to this arc in the story, i was on Conner’s side and denied Haytham’s view - i saw his view as cynical. But 9yrs later and rewatching this scene i can’t stop to agree with Haytham’s point. I mistaken his realistic view for cynicism. Just damn. I need to replay this.
Ironically in most games the Assassin protagonists - with exception of Altair and Ezio, the later Ezio - were seeking personal goals, while the Templar counterparts were all focused on their cause. Like look at the difference between Arno and Elise, he's aaaall about her, while she's all about the order's goals. The Templars REALLY deserve more Haytham-Style representation instead of being thrown around for "final boss" missions.
I mean, it heavily depends on what you consider to be a cause. There is a reason why most people didn't really think much of the Templars in previous titles, because they weren't actually that complex. The templars in AC1 had a few moments where you could stop and think, if they weren't too over the top, but the Ezio trilogy templars weren't really that interesting. Rodrigo was only interested in becoming the prophet without even knowing what this is supposed to be. For someone who should seek order, he based a lot of his reasoning on a prophecy. Cesare was just simply looking for power. And the same goes for whatever the name of the templar in Revelations was, because at no point was it shown why he was trying to get into power. There wasn't a mission where he reformed the city so that it was now peaceful but without freedom. So at the end of the day, we can think he wanted to achieve that in the future, but it was never shown, so we can't even be sure about it.
@@musiqueaccount2344 initially yes but look at Brotherhood and Revelation Ezio, a guy looking beyond himself to something bigger, and even after the games he still kept that till the moment he died, he tried hard to let it go at the end of Revelations but he always felt he's gotta. That's selfless dedication
@@Modie well I agree earlier games didn't have the best Templar leaders out there but setting them aside the "minor bosses" if you wanna felt more "thinkable" as you mentioned, often I found myself respecting the target after listening to their prospective in the memory corridor, wouldn't agree with them for sure, absolutely would stop them by force if needed...nonetheless you can't question their motives and that it wasn't for self-gain with the exception for the main ones who get usually corrupted by power influence like Caesar and the Pope, even Al-Mualim though he thought he's "doing the right thing" he was obviously power-hungry. But at least my personal experience with smaller Templar masters they always seemed to be working towards something not just pursuing their personal goals.
@@Mu7ammad0Almenshawy brotherhood and revelations are different games and they weren't even planned, ac2 ezio was motivated by revenge first and foremost for nearly all of the game
0:12 I like how Connor looks down at his feet like a kid asking their parents a question that might get them in trouble. But it's makes sense considering he's with his father and he naturally be curious about him but at the same time knows that they are on opposite sides and Haytham can kill him in a blink of an eye
What that line means is that he’s calling his father a cynic. Connor is a naive optimist, Haytham is a cynical realist. Connor’s ultimate journey in AC3 is losing his naïveté (realizing the revolutionaries are not totally good and that the world and it’s conflicts are complex), while not giving up his optimism and faith in humanity.
@TheUzumakiSpiral wow you’ve been literally arguing with people about this video for over 4 years and you’ve been calling people idiots for not reading the book. Honestly get a life dude
@@lephantomchickn3676 , absolute freedom leads to chaos, anarchy, and lawlessness whereas absolute order leads to authoritarianism, dictatorships, and fascism, so both extremes are equally terrible as one another, and to achieve true peace you’d need a mixture of both governing principles.
I think this is one of the best scenes on all of AC games, if not the best entirely. Not only is the dialog very accurate even for these days and it explains the conflict and ideals of both assassins and templars, but the music fits this scene perfectly, the actors are doing an incredible job and even the body language is flawless. I mean, even those who hate this game (which I still don´t understand, for me it is the best one) must admit, that this scene is basically perfect.
The thing with Connor, is that he truly believed in freedom of America and what it represents. Haythem, being who he is and what he has seen, knows that a lot of this noise was meant just to get ahead of everyone else in the New colonies. And that's the beauty of it. In present day, Connor represents us, wanting to see that our country truly is a place of freedom and Haythem represents those that knows what it means to have "freedom" and know what it requires. So, it would seem that this scene represents more than just a father and son talking about people and life.
TheMegaUzumaki If you go by that logic, then Haytham did have a right for revenge because didn't Birch take his sister and kill off his family? if that's the case both had justifiable cause to kill each other.
TheMegaUzumaki Edward was a disgrace himself, he only cared about it when he literally lost all he had. And the Templar and assassin's are both parts of the same coin, Achilles became a disgrace when he foolishly refused to listen to Shay about the Temples, It didn't matter if he was grieving there was no sense in his decisions. Hell, the assassin's in Syndicate were worse, they didn't want to free London, they wanted control over all the gangs not to get rid of them. They wanted to control territory just like the Templars. Bellec from Unity said he saw Templars burn entire villages for the chance to kill 1 assassin, but later says to save the brotherhood, he will see France burn. He was no. better the people he fought. In rouge the Assassin's used gangs to control the city and they went after the family of a dead Templar way after he was killed. Ezio would kill all men and women if they worked for the templars, he even said it to chistina, in the memory of brotherhood, even the families that had no part in his family's murder were disgraced because of his actions. At least Connor showed mercy to the workers once in a while, trying to not shed needless blood.
TheMegaUzumaki Yeah they are the same as each other, some of the so called Templars may have had a higher toll all together but both organizations are fighting for the virtually the same thing, they just have different approachs. For all intensive purposes, the assassin's are not the good guys, neither are the templars both are too extreme in what they do and fighting amongst themselves just escalates more problems for innocent people. Edward was a selfish pirate who only cared about himself until he woke up. Ezio only cared about revenge and wasted a majority of his life just to get it, but he learned his lesson in brotherhood. Jacob was an asshole who didn't take anything seriously, Evie took everything way too seriously, both were incompetent and ignorant. Both parties are at fault for some of the worse tragedies that have happened, Both are responsible for innocent blood shed. Even the modern day assassin's are hypocritical and controversial, just as are the templars. Both are too engrossed in fighting each other then actually solving real problems. Too say the assassin's and templars are not the same, is a very biased opinion, but what's true and what is are two very different things. The same with principal and practice.
Haytham is the better character. Such a shame Connor didn’t stay on his side and didn’t spare him. Maybe the world in AC wouldn’t be such a mess in the present world. Haytham was one of the few templars who saw the real truth of the world and wanted to make it peaceful and free. Deep down he was a true saint and a true hero
TheMegaUzumaki- I respect Haytham, because despite his harsh actions, he did it in the name of something greater than himself. Grandmasters like the Borgias and Birch were self interested monsters, and the Templar Order is better off without them.
TheMegaUzumaki- Wasn't Washington's guys responsible for Ziio's death, not Lee? I never got why Connor didn't just turn on Wash after that. The Assassins aren't squeaky clean either. Rouge taught us there are extremes they are willing to go to, even if it means the deaths of entire cities. That's one of the good things about Creed. Whether they be Templar or Assassin, both have good and bad reasons for what they do.
TheMegaUzumaki- You seem to be a pretty hardcore assassin fan, and I guess that's cool. I still prefer the Templars. Just the way I am I suppose. Rather control than chaos. By the way, out of curiosity, what is an "Uzumaki"?
@TheUzumakiSpiral What do you mean Birch was in Templar ideals??? Lmao, all Templar Ideals mainly suggest that peace could be brought upon by order, and control...I think you're seeing it in White and Black 😂
@TheUzumakiSpiral I need references lol....And btw, it still didn't prove that all templars are villains! It seems you haven't played Rogue at all ✌🏻... Assassins are the villains there!
It’s scenes like this that prove that AC3 was one of the most cinematic/dramatic AC titles that’s ever released! The conflict between order and freedom, both are right, both are wrong. The relationship between an estranged father, and his bitter son. The birth of a new nation, and the power struggle between two hidden factions within. There’s hope, betrayal, loss, acceptance, growth, and maturity… all wrapped in a beautiful setting, and told from the perspective of a unique and compelling individual. This is why AC3 is my favorite AC game in the franchise. IMO It’s so good, I wish they had made a movie about it back in the day. These days I’m not so sure they’d be able to understand and deliver a balanced well thought out narrative.
@@cia2293 How is Haytham a communist? Communism = no state, people share everything with eachother, money doesn't exist Haytham = wants a state/templar order ruling over people in order to give them a good life. Completely different
@@ocean7849 Some would argue communism needs a state to "work", afterall it does need power over the people to impose itself on them, not much diferent from Haytham. In order for it to work, everyone would need to be in agreement, and people usually tend to have diferent opinions which would lead to disagreements and conflicts, then comes the state to force everyone into communism. Both Haytham's ideals and Communism breed authoritarism.
@@Raketoer I know it has been over a yea, but whatever. This that you described is called socialism. Socialism means the maximum state. IT's communism, but the state does the job of dividing everything. Communism in it's "true form" has no state, the people work, the people manage the resourses for themselves.
The Templars would have succeeded in their goal but due to Haytham discovering the shocking truth that his own son was an assassin trying to stop him the emotional weakness got him killed.
To be fair it was Charles Lee that started it all by disobeying Haytham's orders and went on burning Connor's village, which then started out his journey into becoming an Assassin I would've thought Haytham would show resentment to Charles for going after the First Civ when Haytham knew it was pointless
@@Cruddy129 You're incorrect. It was George Washington himself who burned down Connor's village during the Seven Year War. Lee merely wanted to talk to the village elders (to get them to move elsewhere so that the Templars could protect the precusor sites) but he ran into Connor and decided to bully him instead. Lee and his entourage went to the village after this event but found GW and his men raze it to the ground and simply left as there was nothing else they could've done to prevent it. Connor saw Lee before the attack and thus assumed that it was Lee who was behind it. Connor became obsessed with Lee because of this and the fact that he was a Templar just like his father. He didn't go after GW even though he knew that he was the one who did it because he believed that they fought for the same goal, no matter how gladly he wanted to off him. Connor's naivete led him to fight a war of attrition and his people's exile and Connor even acknowledged that he saw the truth in his father's words in the deleted epilogue, but he decided to carry on and continue to fight for the Assassins, no matter what. That, was his compromise.
Haytham was 100 percent correct. The colonial templars were far better than other templars and the colonial assassin's brotherhood like Achilles. It's why shay and haytham are one of my favorites
In AC 3 I understood where the Templars come from where they get their ideas (or maybe just Haytham) because the Borgias were just power hungry but Haytham was not, first with Johnson he spoke perfect reson imo, pitcairn as well, Hickey? well he made a point that connor's hand's would always be empty, I was starting to doubt the Assassin's and this scene right here, this badass scene made me a templar more than an assassin
Haytham could have mentioned shay in his journal but there is a gap where Rogue should have happened so the pages could have been removed for whatever reason.
Hands down my favorite scene in probably the entire series, that and Ezio's speech towards the end of AC2. Haytham is what an antagonist should be: not evil but correct in his own way. Even though AC3 is probably my least favorite game in the series, scenes like this made it playable and even enjoyable.
This is, in my opinion, the best scene in the series. The interactions between Connor and Haytham were amazing because they showed how fundamentally similar the Assassins and the Templars were. This level of depth is probably the only time this series went close to the dialogues of the first game.
The thing is that Haytham is equally as naive as Connor. He doesn't seem to realize that anyone who wants power as a Templar will never rule fairly or use their power for good.
haythem kinda has a point about how assassins used to strive for peace rather than freedom as even Altair once said that their creed demands not for freedom to do as you please but to for wisdom with how you set about the world
Haytham is saying how he liked the Assassins if they just stuck with fighting corruption and peace rather than being more political over time which actually caused the Assassins to be more stagnant and corrupt over time until the Modern Day. This is why I favor the Hidden Ones over the Assassins.
This moment is like when Bartolomew Roberts from Black Flag asked you "is it the templars or the assassins this time?" That really shifted the paradigms for me
Rodrigo Borgia: Evil grand master Templar Haytham Kenway: Good grand master Templar Got to give props to Haytham for showing Templars are not all heartless killers obsessed with controlling humanity.
This dialogue between Connor and Haytham is freaking oscar material for a movie. Seriously, picture for a second a drama movie starring Al Pacino and Daniel Radcliffe debating about world peace...
Freedom allows women to murder their own children. Democracy allows idiots to vote in representatives that don’t act in their interests. It’s all a scam.
Haytham’s wisdom holds greater weight even today. He would of been a hell of a great Assassin if the Colonial and British Assassin Brotherhoods weren’t horses taints.
I love hearing Haytham actually respect the Assassins in a way, at least in Altairs time. Haytham couldve done some real good in any other time period besides the one he was born in
A lot of people say this is where the series jumped the shark. Did it? I honestly think the more morally grey direction is where the series REALLY got interesting. Up until this game the story has been super black and white, but hundreds of years has caused the paradigm to shift dramatically. This is arguably the best incarnation of the Templars as they have learned from their past mistakes and are trying a new approach and the Assassin's can't comprehend it. That's brilliant.
This is one of the very best scenes in all of gaming. What an amazing performance, and a BRILlitantly written, meaningful argument accompanied perfectly by the music written. Just WOW.
Haytham was a very interesting character. He's harsh, but sympathetic. He's straight-forward and tells it like it is. He's goal-driven, but can be convinced to a different path if given a reasonable argument. Just one of the ways that this game helped to provide more gray into what had been a very straightforward black and white story.
The funny thing is that had Haytham and his allies succeeded, the Native Americans would NOT have been wiped out. The actions of the Assassins in general and Connor in particular pretty much sealed the fate of the Native Americans.
I agree with Haytham, though we are a species that values freedom, there can't be any freedom without leashes and some sort of control that will ensure order.
I believe that society can have plenty of freedom of opportunity and choice whilst also keeping to the principles of order and discipline. The Assassins and the Templars could truly make a wonderful society if only they'd not stick to the extremes of their ideologies.
The point of Haytham was that he was very good at sophistry, able to spin whatever situation was at hand to his own rhetorical advantage. People get that, right? Connor absolutely has his number when he says that for all his fancy talk, he’s just upset that the man he thinks he can control (Lee) wasn’t able to secure power. Like, the entire point of his character is that he has zero genuine convictions. The closest thing he has to a guiding principle for his life’s work of endless power grabbing is wanting to prevent war, and by that measure he’s a total failure. Connor isn’t classically educated, so he can’t eloquently refute Haytham in an argument. His actions talk for him, though: Haytham’s Templar order wiped out the Brotherhood in the colonies, then spent the ensuing years failing to consolidate more concrete political power or genuinely help anyone. Connor’s rebuilt new world Assassins goes on to become a massively successful force for liberation throughout America once it becomes clear the states are too reluctant to give up slavery. For all that Haytham pretends to be someone able to see through the Assassin/Templar conflict, he regularly chooses loyalty to the Templars over any genuine principles, while Connor’s work after the revolution to free slaves in direct opposition to the country he helped found shows far more dedication to being open-minded and willing to admit he was wrong.
I like how Haytham looks into Connor's eyes when he asks about the Templars instead of killing them listenning only to Achilles. Haytham would have wanted Connor to be like him.
Well, I must say, I am truly happy to see political and moral conversations that spawned out of a videogame. It truly shows how the medium has matured over the years... Now, in matters of the conflicting ideologies.... As far as I have understood, the Templars' goal is order, and they are prepared to sacrifice freedom for it. Assassins want freedom, and they are prepared to sacrifice order for it. Both order and freedom are important, but I have to go with freedom for a number of reasons. First, order, especially forced order is not only temporary, but also dangerous. Second, it is our free will that separates us from animals. A wolf pack, for example, has order inside it, since everyone follows the leader without questions. But it is our ability to choose our own path, that makes us human, to quote from Ezio. It is true that, when everyone does what he wants without thought, the only outcome is chaos. But that is not freedom's fault. That happens because humans haven't yet matured enough to build a society with both freedom and peace. That is what the Assassins strive for. The motto "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" should not be decoded as "Do as you please and don't give a fuck", it should be decoded as "Exactly BECAUSE nothing is true and everything is permitted, society must find its OWN path, forge its OWN morals, without following someone's words blindly." It doesn't say, don't believe in anything, it says, forge your own judgement and believe in what YOU think is right, not what someone else does.......... As proof for it, in Assassin's creed Secret Crusade, Altair says "The creed does not command us to be free. It commands us to be wise" And to finish this, just consider that in a Templar world, governed by order, we wouldn't be able to express our believes in this comment section, because conflicting comments would be considered a threat to peace and order. Absolute order exists only when ALL people believe the same, and my believes are not something I am prepared to sacrifice
Wow, this is very beautifully put. I wholeheartedly agree with your argument, and honestly, more people should read this. I think we the player should think about why we are playing assassins instead of the Templars, and I think you perfectly answered that. It is not explicitly stated by the makers of the game why we play the assassin, and it's so that we can figure it out for ourselves. When Templars like Haytham make reasonable points, it makes us question whether or not the intentions of the Templars are truly that bad, but we need to reiterate to ourselves why we are really playing the assassins - and you've done just that. I think you've written a very well-educated comprehensive, frankly stunning passage. Thank you.
You're right and i agree. But the reason why the Templars are justified in their existence is because they realized that a lot of people can't handle freedom (either because the people are too stupid or don't want responsibility and freedom of thought, out of comfort or laziness. They apparently want to be slaves). If only people were intelligent enough to be free, then the part of your argument where you say we're immature would be true. Maybe i am wrong though, maybe it's not stupidity of the people but immaturity, but i don't believe that. I don't have hope in most people and from my own experience i believe that these people are limited in their already inferior being. Correct me if i'm wrong but as far as i know i'm right. Back to topic though, both the Assassins and the Templars are right. It should be like this. The Geniuses with a decent soul (no Psychopaths) should be free, while the ones that are below them ( the slaves, the inferior, the stupid ones who don't want or can't handle responsibility etc.) should be confined to order, so they don't do anything stupid and plunge into unnecessary and unhealthy chaos. So what do you think?
@@PoleHaus man everyone should be free to an extent and not controlled. (exceptions with legality exist etc) but order is merely control. giving people the power to control your freedom for one reason or another typically because of money and power. they will be rich and kill the controlled for their amusement while the controlled suffer for eternity with the inability to make a decision on their own. freedom is better than control. otherwise all we are is slaves to the white man who’s great ancestor raped and murdered their way through to the highest rankings of power. freedom to do as one pleases while following moral understandings and legal understandings that coincide with morals while not being ignorant or oppressive is needed for a great soceity.
*I confess that Haytham and Shay made me think and understand the Templars better. They want peace, but with order, dogmas... but the "freedom" the Assassins wanted was too exaggerated, as was order. In the end, neither side is wrong, they just have different ways of desiring peace.*
@TheMegaUzumaki He has the potential to be the Father. He isn't the true Father. The Father of Understanding can also be a guiding force or a wise deity. I choose the guiding force. In the end, they're all right. May the Father of Understanding guide you. Also, may the Great Spirit give you purpose And Karma give you direction.
@TheMegaUzumaki I'm an omnist. I take all beliefs into consideration. I, in a way, believe in them all. I try to find the truth with in each religion and grow as a person. Not one belief is right yet not one is wrong.
The existence of templars and assassins are pretty balanced if you ask me. Templars wanted control and Assassins wanted freedom. Everything would be better if they form an alliance but with the templars wanting too much control and the assassins wanting too much freedom, it's never gonna happen.
So, essentially the entire fight between the Assassins and Templars are completely pointless and they both want the same thing but go through it in different ways. Resulting in the the groups wasting the Earths time in a petty squabble.
(SPOILER ALERT) This is a awesome cutscene, not just because of the dialogue but it also portrays the Templar as a sensible enemy rather than a cartoony villain. I haven’t played AC Rogue yet but I know it expands on this concept. There’s actually a cut cutscene at the end of the game where Connor realizes Haytham was right all along. That his so called “friends” used him and were the same people who displaced his people at the end of the game. I’ve played AC3 for the first time recently and I love and adore everything about the story. Haytham and Connor were such good characters, their chemistry was great. I was very upset when Connor had to kill Haytham, I knew teaming up with Haytham was too good to be true, but I was holding on to that chance until it became clear. Connor is filled with so much tragedy, from beginning to end, Haytham too.
Gods such a great story. And then the next game was just "ey I'm a pirate-oh now I'm sad-ey my daughter is visiting. Let's reminisce about men who betrayed me after I knew them for one week"
![Ezio Auditore Meets Altair Ibn La Ahad [Full Scene]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hw86GANf8mw/mqdefault.jpg)
![Ezio Auditore Meets Altair Ibn La Ahad [Full Scene]](/img/tr.png)
![The Wall Song ร้องข้ามกำแพง | EP.213 | กรีน อัษฎาพร | 3 ต.ค. 67 [1/5]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3KrlLbCsadI/mqdefault.jpg)
I love that Connor actually asks and wants to understand the WHY of things between the assassins and templars
Yes this game changed my perspective on life
Me too
@@Freethinker_94 how so to understand why good and bad exist?
Bad can not exist with out good
Ulysses moment
Discipline without freedom is tyranny, but freedom without discipline is chaos.
Well-said!
The assassins and Templar’s represent both extremes
In these days, that cannot be more true
@@Cruddy129 irl it's even more complex than ever as each sides found tyranny and chaos of each others
@@namekiz3199 No side is the winner, and one side will never be completely gone whether we like it or not
Its like one cannot exist without the other
"The Assassins professed a far more sensible goal, that of peace"
That was literally what the Assassins seeked in AC1
They did but Altair reformed the Order.
Vidic echoed the same sentiments, but added that the Assassins didn't go far enough.
When they were secretly under the control of a templar
How do people who have the job of killing people seek peace? (I didn't play the whole first assassins creed, just the beginning)
Can't help but think that Ezio was behind the transition from peace to freedom considering the events of brotherhood and revelations involving the liberation of rome and constantinopolis from the borgia/byzantines
Connor: "You could have killed me when we first met - what stayed your hand?"
Haytham: "Curiosity." (translation: You are my son.)
MassEffectFan113 Pretty much lol
It seems that Haythem genuinely wanted Connor to come around to his way of thinking he had plenty of chances to get the drop on Conner but chose not to
*I am your father*
@@godspeed6684 "Join me, and together we can rule the Colonies as father and son!"
@@godspeed6684 NOO! NOOO! It's not true! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!!
Haytham: *Gives a clever, well-worded and thought out argument*
Connor: Yeah, but sour grapes.
😂
Connor is Victorious! Freedom has Won! 😎
Thr standard reddit response
You don't get it right?
@@RankaZer0 Ahh wine drunk?
Haythem was right. It's amazing how, even today, you can see how his words show the world as it is. I love everything about his character.
Me too! He and Shay are my favorites, cause they both showed there are two sides for every story and they are not the bad guys at all, it's all about relativity. As you said, his words fit perfectly today either, that's amazing. His vision of world, way ahead his time! I simply love him!
which life been ruined by haytham's word? he made his point. but i do see many lifes been ruined over fanboyism and i already see one for today
Rafael Cerquetani That's why they made you play with him at the beggining. You didn't even noticed he was a Templar until he said it, and here he described every corrupt democracy in the world and Revolution.
Andrew Charles it’s so unfortunate how true it is
And the amount of corrupted individuals in Templar is ridiculous merely because they must be the bad guys.
Many of them didn't even try to up hold the ideal itself, merely spouting it as justification for whatever they desire.
Haytham is the embodiment of his exact words. Templars want purpose. He seeks and delivers it, unlike all the other templars who just went on a power trip. We need more villains like Haytham.
more like an antihero
@@lelouchs look like my hero
I wish they got more into *what* purpose the templars seek. Haytham sounds like he is speaking for those who were not represented, then again he could be just as callous in his goal for power.
@@breakingboundaries3950 His goals are ambitious, but not his quest for power, he wanted to unite all the best in Assassins and Templars, America is the land of opportunity and he wanted to create something new, something that could end the eternal conflict. An idea cannot be defeated simply by killing its followers, he wanted to offer an alternative.
@@Andriy_Sklyar But Haytham was ignorant. The Templars Connor killed didn't share his goal for the new world. They would have been corrupted and turn America into a world order that would have been oppressive.
this is when haytham converted me to a templar.
+Rafael Ulloa
THIS is when I understood the way of a templar, and when I started to look at the other side of the coin. AND converted me to a templar!
really?
Kind of. Long story short he was kind of forced and had no choice to join the Templars, so he started having doubts around this time but I think since Connor entered the image he tried to convince himself once more it was true. It was just before his death that he admitted the Templars were flawed, and even then he never said he wished for the path of an Assassin, but rather a road in between the two. This is why he tried so hard to convince Connor the Templars were right, and in Connor's deleted epilogue he also admits that he wanted to have a peace between them. Jennifer, his half-sister, also wanted a peace between the two Orders and gave the letters, I believe it may have been Haytham's letters to her, actually, to Elise with the hopes that the Templar would take in Haytham's words and try to unite the Templars and Assassins.
And who will give the Templar's direction and guidance. Who is to stop people like the Borgias from abusing absolute power? The templar logic is flawed on a fundamental level. They are no better than any other organisation and suffers from the same weaknesses everyone else is. Are you so quick to throw away you freedom and democracy because of some fancy words?
iam afraid not the fancy words that lure us into templar. its the meaning behind that word. freedom is peace? connor said. perhaps, but freedom without tolerance and responsiblity only cause chaos and criminality as in a step one for an invitation to chaos. what im trying to say is freedom is good and nice and also a core for every single individual in order to reach happiness but then again if everything is permitted, none is safe
We need more templars like Haytham. All the other ones are power hungry and assholes.
And Assassins who betray the Brotherhood for the Templars like Shay.
Serpent Night Dragon In a way I saw it which seems weird both happened.
Maybe Johnson and Pitcairn would be better.
can you blame shay he followed orders and a whole city filled with thousands of people got destroyed and all of them died yet he was the only one that cared not all assassin bossess would let something like that happen but his just fucked up horribly and shay was the karma he deserved.
Shay Cormac? De la Serre family? George Monro? Laureano De Torres?
Whoever wrote the dialogues for Haytham deserves an oscar.
Fun fact - Haytham is Cliff Hanger (Rescue Heroes)
The one time I actually agree with a Templar..... Well, Shay too...
Shay didn't deserve what happened to him.
See, Templars nor Assassins are evil nor good. Perspective is interesting, ain't it?
@TheUzumakiSpiral connor had mercy
@@legohunter1020 yep subjective
@TheUzumakiSpiral yep
AC3 was horribly underrated. I’ve honestly understood where The Templars are coming from on more than one occasion but I’m an Assassin through and through.
This game should be adapted into a TV series
@@unicorntomboy9736
Westworld season 3 is centered around the theme of peace and order through control vs freedom no matter what, and thus feels like it is what the AC movie should've been like.
I heavily recommend you check it out.
I’m not an assassin or Templar, I’m an Assassin’s Creed fan. Both sides are worth choosing.
@@H.K.5exactly. But for me in this game th templars like Haytham and Johnson were way more convincing
I can't get bored of that scene. Haytham was spot on in every word he said
In reality no, he's not. When the revolution ends many of those in Congress, our founding fathers, end up losing their fortunes as well as their lives trying win the war. The more well known ones go on to create the constitution that has stood the test of time. Washington of course was the greatest because he gave up his power time again despite everyone calling for him to be king.
The affection for the people to have freedom and rule themselves was absolutely genuine and we know it is because of their actions.
Cuz he was talking to his SON
all I heard were sour grapes
Literally this words should be add to the fact of the ending of AC3
Connor only gets "affection" from the Brotherhood, the Village he made and his family if you read the comics
U.S.A dont care about the Connors
"i do not feign affection"
what a love from a father to his son even their path was crossed
🎉
Haythem never lied to connor. That's a very important part of fatherhood lmao
Back when assassin creed have decent cutscenes and well written dialogue scenes that you would want to go back and rewatch again😢
I really miss these type of meaningful dialogues AC used to have…Ever since odyssey it feels like the characters are reading off a script written by ChatGPT. It’s so uninteresting and corny… Especially since they hardly use actual cutscenes anymore everything looks so stiff. SMH ubisoft man
before it turned into a skyrim.ripoff yeah
More than meaningful. This game’s characters, acting, and plot made it the only reason I finished it. Every time I saw Haytham or Achilles on the screen I just wanted more of them and couldn’t stop playing
And it was at this moment I realized both the Templars and Assassins goal will never be met. They each want peace with opposing ideologies. Neither are good or bad and I have decided that the Templars and Assassins will continue to play this game and I will not choose a side because either way I will be wrong. There is no such thing as true freedom or true order. In freedom there will be chaos and in order there will be tyranny. Order means government control over everything and freedom means lawlessness. There either has to be balance or a new way to unite people. You preach peace yet all you do is fight a war against each other. I am no knight and I don't need a creed. But I will fight for a better world without your silly feud and your flawed ideas of how things should be.
Agree.
They are really no different from each other. They both want the world for themselves. They only dress it up by saying for the greater good. To free humanity. Who are they to put themselves above others? To decide what is best for every individual.
Assassins Templars. They're both extremists. Assassins want freedom without control because of that there is war, crime, inequality. Because Assassins fail to understand the weakness of humanity. Templars want peace through control and because of that the people's urge for freedom causes them to revolt. Which eventually leads to war. But if I have to choose, I'd rather be a Templar I understand the importance of freedom but because the frailty of human nature their freedom must be regulated. Haytham was right in my opinion. Yes, Birch lied to him but he chose to stay because maybe he saw what Birch did wrong and he wanted to do what he thought was right as a Templar. And yeah I guess you're right about Connor cutting ties with Haytham. But in the end Connor understood his father and even regretted killing him after reading his journal.
Better than the speech on Independence day
I think the biggest mistake everyone makes is thinking that absolute piece is possible. It's human nature to fight, while we can do things to bring more peace and make things better we can never bring it absolutely. Anger, hate, corruption etc these things will always exist.
and yet at this point, the creed of the assassins was right and wrongat the same time, that nothing is true but everything CAN'T be trully permitted
This scene defines a turning point in what you think is right, are the templars that bad after all? The story really plays with your mind from here on.
its the first game that shows the Templars as actual human beings and not just "the bad guy". There was plenty of grey area and in all honesty Haytham was the best character up there with Ezio, he not only made sense in his statements and intentions for the order but also had noble goals and i'd argue connor, the assassin, for the first time was actually in the wrong for what he was up to by killing off Templars. Im looking forward to Haythams appearance in Assassins Creed Rogue.
Templar are communism
@@imortalizer50k wrong the first game to show the templars arent evil was ac 1 sure what they were doing was bad but if you pay attention to the white room confessions each templar target you kill thought what they were doing was the right thing
Of course they’re still bad. They’re fascists. Haytham makes good points about the founding fathers and their true motives, but he admitted the only difference between them is he doesn’t feign affection, that doesn’t make haytham good, just more honest. The templars seek order through control, tyranny, the assassins are still the best out of all the groups, even if their ideology is a bit unrealistic, freedom is the most admirable goal of theirs
They started ww2 and with the apple of eden control everyone the why to make things the way they want it just cause millions dead, the holocaust, and the horror of unit 731.
0:19 I love the turn around from Haytham, right before that he was still being somewhat distant and dickish to Connor. However when Connor asks him more about the templars his tone shifts and his demeanor changes, he was thinking “if there was a chance to change his mind, it’s now”. It really sold me on him truly wanting to change Connor’s perspective and be a family
This.
There’s a second meaning to the A in Assassin and the T in Templar: Anarchist and Tyrant. Haytham is living proof that you don’t need to be a tyrant to be a Templar, that you don’t need to own and manipulate people to give them safe and happy lives.
But that’s exactly what they’re doing... haytham admits that freedom is misguided
@@GhostInPajamas Except that he also further makes the point that the Founders were privileged cucks, oligarchs with silver spoons in their mouths, who made the decision to "represent the wishes of the people" in private. This is something that is both historically referenced as well as in-game. His statement on freedom being misguided isn't wrong with that context in mind, because they, as he said, dressed up the "freedom" that they were giving with pretty words.
I think the big joke is both groups are just making up reasons to play god when everyone would be happy without either of them
@@nathanielgarza9198 You're not wrong.
@@NagandEmerald when you think about how many historical figures just died from their antics
Like people that without the world wouldn’t function with, or how much of information has been censored some of which could just advance technology to the space age was stumped by them
and this is where i switch to The Templar
lol. i just commented the same thing right now! this is a very powerful scene. this is where haytham made a templar out of me.
SPCG Good job. so did i
SPCG Yup me too. That's also another reason why I love AC: Rogue.
Lol
+SPCG may the Father of Understanding guide us :D
There are two types of Templars. Those who are only interested in personal power, and then those like Haytham who believe in their original 'ideals'. These are the more dangerous Templars, for while those who seek power can be satiated, those with a cause will NEVER stop.
And that is what gives the Assassins their strength. They fight only for a cause. Such is the purpose of the Creed.
True. The Borgias were just power hungry tyrants. Hell, Rodrigo was going to leave the assassins alone after AC2 and just keep whatever power he had. Ezio was going to leave things as is as well, but Cesare decided to antagonize the assassins, which caused the Borgia's downfall.
@7zilly Al Mualim was a Templar before he created the Brotherhood and his true motive was to kill the other Templars so he could have the Apple of Eden for himself. So really, the Brotherhood had different motives to begin with rather than being completely corrupt.
@@ViolentGenius Al Mualim didn't create the Brotherhood.
Apparently he was initially an Assaasin but was swayed by the Templars and brought over to their side. But by that point Al Mualim was already the leader of the Assassins. Which is why he manipulated Altair to do his dirty work because he couldn't have afforded to betray them directly. Though obviously they learnt of his treachery by the time Altair had assassinated his first target.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Al Mualim was just an Assassin that defected to the Templars.
Or maybe he was a Templar acting undercover as an Assassin and managed to rise to the rank of Mentor, but decided to use the Brotherhood for his own selfish goals until Altair caught on and defeated him.
The colonial brotherhood, what made Achilles a good mentor? It was seeing that his own hubris would lead to the death and destruction of the world. Claiming the assassins had the responsibility to maintain peace in the world was just an excuse to do whatever was necessary to get pieces of Eden. If shay hadn’t defected or had died when he fell of the cliff. Achilles and his brotherhood would have destroyed the world
@@Xeno574 Al Mualim never defected. He worked with the Templars but never was one.
“The only difference Connor, the ONLY difference between myself and those you aid is I do not feign affection!”
I love how open to interpretation this is
On one hand this could be read as “the people you aid don’t care, atleast I outwardly tell you I don’t care!
Or “the people you aid don’t care, where I ACTUALLY do!”
From the perspective of the Connor it’s the first, from the perspective of Haytham it’s the second. Connor is stoic and traumatized yet young and optimistic, haytham is cold and calculating and also traumatized yet still has a sense of greater good and love for his son.
The tricky part about Templars is distinguishing between members who truly believe in the ideals like Haytham, and members who are just in it for the benefits like Cesare.
Humans being humans, I think people like Haytham are quite rare in their ranks.
Well, Grand Master Torres, for instance, boosted Cuba's economy, created charities for hospitals and such, built up Havana's defenses to protect the citizens, and opposed piracy and also slavery, uttering his disgust for the latter towards Prins and scolding Woods Rogers for not getting rid of his slave ships. He also wanted to find the Observatory for the purpose of ultimate truth, to snuff out lies and ensure justice. Doesn't sound like a monster to me.
George Monroe's vision was to protect the people and make sure they can prosper. He shared that vision with Shay Cormac, and encouraged him to defeat the gangs that were terrorizing citizens (with the support of the Assassin, one might add) and help them renovate their homes/business.
While they are corrupt Templars, Haytham Kenway is certainly not the only one with good intentions. And there are a lot of Templars with good intentions whose actions are merly misunderstood (perhaps on purpose) to be acts of tyranny. Like William Johnson wanting to purchase land of the Iroquois in order to protect them, as the Templars realized that the colonists would turn against the natives.
This has got to be one of my favorite scenes of the whole franchise it really makes me think and side with both factions despite their differences they both want the same thing peace and justice
Haytham's outfit should've been an option for later games.
I don’t remember which ac it was but I think there is ac4 if I’m not mistaken
@@diegoangulo370 no
As a young teen I thought the assassin's were the 'good guys' at least in the first. But haytham shattered that view when he calls out what the brotherhood became.
He had said that the templar want order and I believe him, control through order whilst using brutal exacting actions to maintain it.
Is why no matter how many templar the assassins kill they can't ever be fully defeated, hence why there are still so many AC games still being released (other than continuing sales)
I was teen when i played this, during that time i played to this arc in the story, i was on Conner’s side and denied Haytham’s view - i saw his view as cynical. But 9yrs later and rewatching this scene i can’t stop to agree with Haytham’s point. I mistaken his realistic view for cynicism. Just damn. I need to replay this.
Ironically in most games the Assassin protagonists - with exception of Altair and Ezio, the later Ezio - were seeking personal goals, while the Templar counterparts were all focused on their cause. Like look at the difference between Arno and Elise, he's aaaall about her, while she's all about the order's goals. The Templars REALLY deserve more Haytham-Style representation instead of being thrown around for "final boss" missions.
ezio wanted revenge
I mean, it heavily depends on what you consider to be a cause. There is a reason why most people didn't really think much of the Templars in previous titles, because they weren't actually that complex. The templars in AC1 had a few moments where you could stop and think, if they weren't too over the top, but the Ezio trilogy templars weren't really that interesting. Rodrigo was only interested in becoming the prophet without even knowing what this is supposed to be. For someone who should seek order, he based a lot of his reasoning on a prophecy. Cesare was just simply looking for power. And the same goes for whatever the name of the templar in Revelations was, because at no point was it shown why he was trying to get into power. There wasn't a mission where he reformed the city so that it was now peaceful but without freedom. So at the end of the day, we can think he wanted to achieve that in the future, but it was never shown, so we can't even be sure about it.
@@musiqueaccount2344 initially yes but look at Brotherhood and Revelation Ezio, a guy looking beyond himself to something bigger, and even after the games he still kept that till the moment he died, he tried hard to let it go at the end of Revelations but he always felt he's gotta. That's selfless dedication
@@Modie well I agree earlier games didn't have the best Templar leaders out there but setting them aside the "minor bosses" if you wanna felt more "thinkable" as you mentioned, often I found myself respecting the target after listening to their prospective in the memory corridor, wouldn't agree with them for sure, absolutely would stop them by force if needed...nonetheless you can't question their motives and that it wasn't for self-gain with the exception for the main ones who get usually corrupted by power influence like Caesar and the Pope, even Al-Mualim though he thought he's "doing the right thing" he was obviously power-hungry. But at least my personal experience with smaller Templar masters they always seemed to be working towards something not just pursuing their personal goals.
@@Mu7ammad0Almenshawy brotherhood and revelations are different games and they weren't even planned, ac2 ezio was motivated by revenge first and foremost for nearly all of the game
0:12 I like how Connor looks down at his feet like a kid asking their parents a question that might get them in trouble. But it's makes sense considering he's with his father and he naturally be curious about him but at the same time knows that they are on opposite sides and Haytham can kill him in a blink of an eye
Order, purpose, direction.
Freedom is an invitation to chaos.
The people chose nothing.
I. Do. Not. Feign. Affection.
I couldn't said it better.
TheMegaUzumaki which book is that from
@TheUzumakiSpiral whatever.
It's lines like this that make Assassins Creed 3 so great. The franchise has fallen so far but Ubi knew great dialogue back in the day.
@@TheHufflepuffSaint AC 1-4 were the best
Now I dont even know which side I'm on...also A+ for Haytham's voice actor, damn!
I think the only time the Templar order had a just mission was when Haytham was in command, it even made me support the Templars more.
The moment when you realize Haytham had an excellent argument
Haytham: *talks with true words"
Connor: It SeEmS yOuR tOnGuE hAs TaStEd SoUr GrApEs.
What that line means is that he’s calling his father a cynic. Connor is a naive optimist, Haytham is a cynical realist. Connor’s ultimate journey in AC3 is losing his naïveté (realizing the revolutionaries are not totally good and that the world and it’s conflicts are complex), while not giving up his optimism and faith in humanity.
@TheUzumakiSpiral wow you’ve been literally arguing with people about this video for over 4 years and you’ve been calling people idiots for not reading the book. Honestly get a life dude
Connor sounds like a soy boy that moment
what did you expect him to say ?
tHe PeOpLe MaDe ThEiR cHoIcE, aNd It WaS wAsHiNgToN
Haytham: *Talking*
Game: Skip Cinematic?
Me: No, I don't think i will.
Never skip when Haytham is talking
Love how he points out that the assassins ideology went from peace to freedom in the course of time.
While peace is a more noble goal, freedom is what Assassins should truly strive for i believe.
@@lephantomchickn3676 , absolute freedom leads to chaos, anarchy, and lawlessness whereas absolute order leads to authoritarianism, dictatorships, and fascism, so both extremes are equally terrible as one another, and to achieve true peace you’d need a mixture of both governing principles.
Connor: ''But why you didn't kill me though?''
Haytham: ''Bitch, i don't know. Because you came out of me?''
I think this is one of the best scenes on all of AC games, if not the best entirely. Not only is the dialog very accurate even for these days and it explains the conflict and ideals of both assassins and templars, but the music fits this scene perfectly, the actors are doing an incredible job and even the body language is flawless. I mean, even those who hate this game (which I still don´t understand, for me it is the best one) must admit, that this scene is basically perfect.
I love everything about the game except the game itself. I honestly just do t have fun when I play it, but I love watching the story play out
Yeah absolutely, the only other contender i can think of is the scene in brotherhood where Cesare is talking to his father near the end
The thing with Connor, is that he truly believed in freedom of America and what it represents. Haythem, being who he is and what he has seen, knows that a lot of this noise was meant just to get ahead of everyone else in the New colonies. And that's the beauty of it. In present day, Connor represents us, wanting to see that our country truly is a place of freedom and Haythem represents those that knows what it means to have "freedom" and know what it requires. So, it would seem that this scene represents more than just a father and son talking about people and life.
Given what we see today in 2022 haytham wasn't really wrong.
Haytham has an excellent point his words hopefully will save the assassin supporters from their ignorance. May the father of understanding guide us.
***** Birch killed his father. That's why. Revenge. Actually it was Haytham and his sister who killed Birch.
TheMegaUzumaki If you go by that logic, then Haytham did have a right for revenge because didn't Birch take his sister and kill off his family? if that's the case both had justifiable cause to kill each other.
TheMegaUzumaki Edward was a disgrace himself, he only cared about it when he literally lost all he had.
And the Templar and assassin's are both parts of the same coin, Achilles became a disgrace when he foolishly refused to listen to Shay about the Temples, It didn't matter if he was grieving there was no sense in his decisions.
Hell, the assassin's in Syndicate were worse, they didn't want to free London, they wanted control over all the gangs not to get rid of them. They wanted to control territory just like the Templars. Bellec from Unity said he saw Templars burn entire villages for the chance to kill 1 assassin, but later says to save the brotherhood, he will see France burn. He was no. better the people he fought.
In rouge the Assassin's used gangs to control the city and they went after the family of a dead Templar way after he was killed.
Ezio would kill all men and women if they worked for the templars, he even said it to chistina, in the memory of brotherhood, even the families that had no part in his family's murder were disgraced because of his actions. At least Connor showed mercy to the workers once in a while, trying to not shed needless blood.
TheMegaUzumaki Yeah they are the same as each other, some of the so called Templars may have had a higher toll all together but both organizations are fighting for the virtually the same thing, they just have different approachs. For all intensive purposes, the assassin's are not the good guys, neither are the templars both are too extreme in what they do and fighting amongst themselves just escalates more problems for innocent people.
Edward was a selfish pirate who only cared about himself until he woke up. Ezio only cared about revenge and wasted a majority of his life just to get it, but he learned his lesson in brotherhood. Jacob was an asshole who didn't take anything seriously, Evie took everything way too seriously, both were incompetent and ignorant.
Both parties are at fault for some of the worse tragedies that have happened, Both are responsible for innocent blood shed.
Even the modern day assassin's are hypocritical and controversial, just as are the templars.
Both are too engrossed in fighting each other then actually solving real problems.
Too say the assassin's and templars are not the same, is a very biased opinion, but what's true and what is are two very different things. The same with principal and practice.
yep fanboyism. no more than that.
Haytham is the better character. Such a shame Connor didn’t stay on his side and didn’t spare him. Maybe the world in AC wouldn’t be such a mess in the present world. Haytham was one of the few templars who saw the real truth of the world and wanted to make it peaceful and free. Deep down he was a true saint and a true hero
you know, haythem does have a point
Jake Will- I miss Haytham. A good man who tried to bring order to a chaotic situation.
TheMegaUzumaki- I don't miss Birch. Far too self-centred and cruel. Haytham was a man I could respect. Harsh, but pragmatic.
TheMegaUzumaki- I respect Haytham, because despite his harsh actions, he did it in the name of something greater than himself. Grandmasters like the Borgias and Birch were self interested monsters, and the Templar Order is better off without them.
TheMegaUzumaki- Wasn't Washington's guys responsible for Ziio's death, not Lee? I never got why Connor didn't just turn on Wash after that.
The Assassins aren't squeaky clean either. Rouge taught us there are extremes they are willing to go to, even if it means the deaths of entire cities. That's one of the good things about Creed. Whether they be Templar or Assassin, both have good and bad reasons for what they do.
TheMegaUzumaki- You seem to be a pretty hardcore assassin fan, and I guess that's cool. I still prefer the Templars. Just the way I am I suppose. Rather control than chaos.
By the way, out of curiosity, what is an "Uzumaki"?
Shay and Haythem made me reconsider what I thought of the Templars
@TheUzumakiSpiral he does Believe! It doesn't say anything about him not falling in line with Templar ideals!
@TheUzumakiSpiral What do you mean Birch was in Templar ideals??? Lmao, all Templar Ideals mainly suggest that peace could be brought upon by order, and control...I think you're seeing it in White and Black 😂
@TheUzumakiSpiral I need references lol....And btw, it still didn't prove that all templars are villains! It seems you haven't played Rogue at all ✌🏻... Assassins are the villains there!
It’s scenes like this that prove that AC3 was one of the most cinematic/dramatic AC titles that’s ever released!
The conflict between order and freedom, both are right, both are wrong. The relationship between an estranged father, and his bitter son. The birth of a new nation, and the power struggle between two hidden factions within. There’s hope, betrayal, loss, acceptance, growth, and maturity… all wrapped in a beautiful setting, and told from the perspective of a unique and compelling individual.
This is why AC3 is my favorite AC game in the franchise. IMO It’s so good, I wish they had made a movie about it back in the day. These days I’m not so sure they’d be able to understand and deliver a balanced well thought out narrative.
Haytam: *do a really good speach and shows that he have a valid point*
Connor: IT SeEMs yoUr TOngUe HaS TAstED SoUR GrAPes
Hes a communist haytham
@@cia2293 How is Haytham a communist? Communism = no state, people share everything with eachother, money doesn't exist
Haytham = wants a state/templar order ruling over people in order to give them a good life. Completely different
@@ocean7849 Some would argue communism needs a state to "work", afterall it does need power over the people to impose itself on them, not much diferent from Haytham. In order for it to work, everyone would need to be in agreement, and people usually tend to have diferent opinions which would lead to disagreements and conflicts, then comes the state to force everyone into communism. Both Haytham's ideals and Communism breed authoritarism.
manuel : calls out ezio for endangering innocents
ezio : AaH tHeRe He Is ThE mOnStEr I wAs LoOkInG fOr
@@Raketoer I know it has been over a yea, but whatever. This that you described is called socialism. Socialism means the maximum state. IT's communism, but the state does the job of dividing everything. Communism in it's "true form" has no state, the people work, the people manage the resourses for themselves.
This scene really makes you wonder who’s and who’s wrong and the answer is they both are. They both have a valid point
The Templars would have succeeded in their goal but due to Haytham discovering the shocking truth that his own son was an assassin trying to stop him the emotional weakness got him killed.
Not even had Haytham not had a kid then the Templar’s won’t have had as many issues.
To be fair it was Charles Lee that started it all by disobeying Haytham's orders and went on burning Connor's village, which then started out his journey into becoming an Assassin
I would've thought Haytham would show resentment to Charles for going after the First Civ when Haytham knew it was pointless
@@Cruddy129 You're incorrect. It was George Washington himself who burned down Connor's village during the Seven Year War. Lee merely wanted to talk to the village elders (to get them to move elsewhere so that the Templars could protect the precusor sites) but he ran into Connor and decided to bully him instead. Lee and his entourage went to the village after this event but found GW and his men raze it to the ground and simply left as there was nothing else they could've done to prevent it. Connor saw Lee before the attack and thus assumed that it was Lee who was behind it.
Connor became obsessed with Lee because of this and the fact that he was a Templar just like his father. He didn't go after GW even though he knew that he was the one who did it because he believed that they fought for the same goal, no matter how gladly he wanted to off him. Connor's naivete led him to fight a war of attrition and his people's exile and Connor even acknowledged that he saw the truth in his father's words in the deleted epilogue, but he decided to carry on and continue to fight for the Assassins, no matter what. That, was his compromise.
Haytham was 100 percent correct. The colonial templars were far better than other templars and the colonial assassin's brotherhood like Achilles. It's why shay and haytham are one of my favorites
I honestly can't argue with a single thing haythem is saying here.
In AC 3 I understood where the Templars come from where they get their ideas (or maybe just Haytham) because the Borgias were just power hungry but Haytham was not, first with Johnson he spoke perfect reson imo, pitcairn as well, Hickey? well he made a point that connor's hand's would always be empty, I was starting to doubt the Assassin's and this scene right here, this badass scene made me a templar more than an assassin
+Koen van lokeren ps: Haytham is totally right
Rogue, iii and black flag the templars have a good point ant the assassins are actually quite dangerous to mankind
Haytham could have mentioned shay in his journal but there is a gap where Rogue should have happened so the pages could have been removed for whatever reason.
***** Haytham didn't mention the Boston massacre either
Haytham didn't mention Monroe, Gist, Weeks, Wardrop, or Smith either
Hands down my favorite scene in probably the entire series, that and Ezio's speech towards the end of AC2. Haytham is what an antagonist should be: not evil but correct in his own way. Even though AC3 is probably my least favorite game in the series, scenes like this made it playable and even enjoyable.
You took the words out of my mouth.
*Haytham talking some philosophical shit*
Connor: "You should have eaten ripe grapes, pal."
This is, in my opinion, the best scene in the series.
The interactions between Connor and Haytham were amazing because they showed how fundamentally similar the Assassins and the Templars were.
This level of depth is probably the only time this series went close to the dialogues of the first game.
When you play rouge you can absolute agree with haytham and even altair and ezio would agree after what the colonial assassin have done
The thing is that Haytham is equally as naive as Connor. He doesn't seem to realize that anyone who wants power as a Templar will never rule fairly or use their power for good.
The exact reason I now side with templars
haythem kinda has a point about how assassins used to strive for peace rather than freedom as even Altair once said that their creed demands not for freedom to do as you please but to for wisdom with how you set about the world
Haytham is the greatest Templar ever. It's not even a debate.
Damn Haytham was written well, still disagree with his philosophy, but damn is he well written
Yep
Haytham is saying how he liked the Assassins if they just stuck with fighting corruption and peace rather than being more political over time which actually caused the Assassins to be more stagnant and corrupt over time until the Modern Day. This is why I favor the Hidden Ones over the Assassins.
This moment is like when Bartolomew Roberts from Black Flag asked you "is it the templars or the assassins this time?"
That really shifted the paradigms for me
Rodrigo Borgia: Evil grand master Templar
Haytham Kenway: Good grand master Templar
Got to give props to Haytham for showing Templars are not all heartless killers obsessed with controlling humanity.
This dialogue between Connor and Haytham is freaking oscar material for a movie. Seriously, picture for a second a drama movie starring Al Pacino and Daniel Radcliffe debating about world peace...
What movie is that? AL and Daniel?
Funny thing is that he’s right.
Freedom allows women to murder their own children. Democracy allows idiots to vote in representatives that don’t act in their interests. It’s all a scam.
Haytham "why you want freedom"
Connor "because I am a fan of eren yeager."
This part alone is better than Origins, Odyssee and Valhalla together
Haytham’s wisdom holds greater weight even today.
He would of been a hell of a great Assassin if the Colonial and British Assassin Brotherhoods weren’t horses taints.
I love hearing Haytham actually respect the Assassins in a way, at least in Altairs time. Haytham couldve done some real good in any other time period besides the one he was born in
The epitome of “I was born in the wrong generation” so to speak
A lot of people say this is where the series jumped the shark. Did it? I honestly think the more morally grey direction is where the series REALLY got interesting. Up until this game the story has been super black and white, but hundreds of years has caused the paradigm to shift dramatically. This is arguably the best incarnation of the Templars as they have learned from their past mistakes and are trying a new approach and the Assassin's can't comprehend it. That's brilliant.
Haytham made a good point for the Templars the same way Edward made a good point the Assassins while talking to Torres
Actually Haytham is right, freedom IS an invitation to chaos. That's why we should not give humans freedom fullfilled.
Haythem is in my eyes the best templar, strong smart and even for a templar reasonable and good
This is one of the very best scenes in all of gaming. What an amazing performance, and a BRILlitantly written, meaningful argument accompanied perfectly by the music written. Just WOW.
Well said
“Freedom IS not peace, it’s an invitation to chaos.” - Haytham Kenway
Never have more false disingenuous words been spoken. 🤷♂️
Loki was all same
Too much freedom and you have chaos, anarchy. Too much order and you have tyranny.
Haytham was a very interesting character. He's harsh, but sympathetic. He's straight-forward and tells it like it is. He's goal-driven, but can be convinced to a different path if given a reasonable argument. Just one of the ways that this game helped to provide more gray into what had been a very straightforward black and white story.
God that scene alone is worth the whole Odyssey + all its dlcs.
The funny thing is that had Haytham and his allies succeeded, the Native Americans would NOT have been wiped out. The actions of the Assassins in general and Connor in particular pretty much sealed the fate of the Native Americans.
@TheUzumakiSpiral In the AC universe, the Templars were going to PREVENT the ethnic expansion of Europeans into Native American territories.
I agree with Haytham, though we are a species that values freedom, there can't be any freedom without leashes and some sort of control that will ensure order.
Haytham is such an underrated character he deserved his own game.
Rogue should have been that game, Instead we got Shay...
I believe that society can have plenty of freedom of opportunity and choice whilst also keeping to the principles of order and discipline. The Assassins and the Templars could truly make a wonderful society if only they'd not stick to the extremes of their ideologies.
pretty funny. A guy with an assassin dad, becomes the Templar, and then he becomes a father, who has a son who becomes an Assassin.
The point of Haytham was that he was very good at sophistry, able to spin whatever situation was at hand to his own rhetorical advantage. People get that, right? Connor absolutely has his number when he says that for all his fancy talk, he’s just upset that the man he thinks he can control (Lee) wasn’t able to secure power.
Like, the entire point of his character is that he has zero genuine convictions. The closest thing he has to a guiding principle for his life’s work of endless power grabbing is wanting to prevent war, and by that measure he’s a total failure.
Connor isn’t classically educated, so he can’t eloquently refute Haytham in an argument. His actions talk for him, though: Haytham’s Templar order wiped out the Brotherhood in the colonies, then spent the ensuing years failing to consolidate more concrete political power or genuinely help anyone. Connor’s rebuilt new world Assassins goes on to become a massively successful force for liberation throughout America once it becomes clear the states are too reluctant to give up slavery. For all that Haytham pretends to be someone able to see through the Assassin/Templar conflict, he regularly chooses loyalty to the Templars over any genuine principles, while Connor’s work after the revolution to free slaves in direct opposition to the country he helped found shows far more dedication to being open-minded and willing to admit he was wrong.
I like how Haytham looks into Connor's eyes when he asks about the Templars instead of killing them listenning only to Achilles. Haytham would have wanted Connor to be like him.
"Freedom without discipline is chaos"
Haytham one of my favorite templars in the assassin's creed games
Well, I must say, I am truly happy to see political and moral conversations that spawned out of a videogame. It truly shows how the medium has matured over the years... Now, in matters of the conflicting ideologies.... As far as I have understood, the Templars' goal is order, and they are prepared to sacrifice freedom for it. Assassins want freedom, and they are prepared to sacrifice order for it. Both order and freedom are important, but I have to go with freedom for a number of reasons. First, order, especially forced order is not only temporary, but also dangerous. Second, it is our free will that separates us from animals. A wolf pack, for example, has order inside it, since everyone follows the leader without questions. But it is our ability to choose our own path, that makes us human, to quote from Ezio. It is true that, when everyone does what he wants without thought, the only outcome is chaos. But that is not freedom's fault. That happens because humans haven't yet matured enough to build a society with both freedom and peace. That is what the Assassins strive for. The motto "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" should not be decoded as "Do as you please and don't give a fuck", it should be decoded as "Exactly BECAUSE nothing is true and everything is permitted, society must find its OWN path, forge its OWN morals, without following someone's words blindly." It doesn't say, don't believe in anything, it says, forge your own judgement and believe in what YOU think is right, not what someone else does.......... As proof for it, in Assassin's creed Secret Crusade, Altair says "The creed does not command us to be free. It commands us to be wise" And to finish this, just consider that in a Templar world, governed by order, we wouldn't be able to express our believes in this comment section, because conflicting comments would be considered a threat to peace and order. Absolute order exists only when ALL people believe the same, and my believes are not something I am prepared to sacrifice
Wow, this is very beautifully put. I wholeheartedly agree with your argument, and honestly, more people should read this. I think we the player should think about why we are playing assassins instead of the Templars, and I think you perfectly answered that. It is not explicitly stated by the makers of the game why we play the assassin, and it's so that we can figure it out for ourselves. When Templars like Haytham make reasonable points, it makes us question whether or not the intentions of the Templars are truly that bad, but we need to reiterate to ourselves why we are really playing the assassins - and you've done just that. I think you've written a very well-educated comprehensive, frankly stunning passage. Thank you.
Damn man you should have been the man arguing with haytham instead of connor
You're right and i agree. But the reason why the Templars are justified in their existence is because they realized that a lot of people can't handle freedom (either because the people are too stupid or don't want responsibility and freedom of thought, out of comfort or laziness. They apparently want to be slaves). If only people were intelligent enough to be free, then the part of your argument where you say we're immature would be true. Maybe i am wrong though, maybe it's not stupidity of the people but immaturity, but i don't believe that. I don't have hope in most people and from my own experience i believe that these people are limited in their already inferior being. Correct me if i'm wrong but as far as i know i'm right. Back to topic though, both the Assassins and the Templars are right. It should be like this. The Geniuses with a decent soul (no Psychopaths) should be free, while the ones that are below them ( the slaves, the inferior, the stupid ones who don't want or can't handle responsibility etc.) should be confined to order, so they don't do anything stupid and plunge into unnecessary and unhealthy chaos. So what do you think?
thanks for the essay nerd
@@PoleHaus man everyone should be free to an extent and not controlled. (exceptions with legality exist etc) but order is merely control. giving people the power to control your freedom for one reason or another typically because of money and power. they will be rich and kill the controlled for their amusement while the controlled suffer for eternity with the inability to make a decision on their own. freedom is better than control. otherwise all we are is slaves to the white man who’s great ancestor raped and murdered their way through to the highest rankings of power. freedom to do as one pleases while following moral understandings and legal understandings that coincide with morals while not being ignorant or oppressive is needed for a great soceity.
*I confess that Haytham and Shay made me think and understand the Templars better. They want peace, but with order, dogmas... but the "freedom" the Assassins wanted was too exaggerated, as was order. In the end, neither side is wrong, they just have different ways of desiring peace.*
There isn’t anything in the recent AC games that’s this good.
"Order. Purpose. Direction. No more than that. It's your lot that means to confound with this nonsense talk of freedom."
- Haytham Kenway
may the father of understanding guide us
Bharath JS You here? How marvellous!
Literal father that understands.
May the father of understanding guide us all
@TheMegaUzumaki He has the potential to be the Father. He isn't the true Father. The Father of Understanding can also be a guiding force or a wise deity. I choose the guiding force.
In the end, they're all right.
May the Father of Understanding guide you.
Also, may the Great Spirit give you purpose
And Karma give you direction.
@TheMegaUzumaki I'm an omnist. I take all beliefs into consideration. I, in a way, believe in them all. I try to find the truth with in each religion and grow as a person. Not one belief is right yet not one is wrong.
The existence of templars and assassins are pretty balanced if you ask me. Templars wanted control and Assassins wanted freedom. Everything would be better if they form an alliance but with the templars wanting too much control and the assassins wanting too much freedom, it's never gonna happen.
Yep
Two ideologies that are this extreme cannot work together for long.
So, essentially the entire fight between the Assassins and Templars are completely pointless and they both want the same thing but go through it in different ways. Resulting in the the groups wasting the Earths time in a petty squabble.
I love how haythem already planned to get Connor into templar
Haythem Is Right Especially Nowadays!
When you realize that Haytham is more interesting character than the protagonist himself, Connor
Yep.
I chose my path you chose the way of the hero. And they found you amusing for a while.
Oh wait wrong rooftop
(SPOILER ALERT)
This is a awesome cutscene, not just because of the dialogue but it also portrays the Templar as a sensible enemy rather than a cartoony villain. I haven’t played AC Rogue yet but I know it expands on this concept.
There’s actually a cut cutscene at the end of the game where Connor realizes Haytham was right all along. That his so called “friends” used him and were the same people who displaced his people at the end of the game.
I’ve played AC3 for the first time recently and I love and adore everything about the story. Haytham and Connor were such good characters, their chemistry was great. I was very upset when Connor had to kill Haytham, I knew teaming up with Haytham was too good to be true, but I was holding on to that chance until it became clear. Connor is filled with so much tragedy, from beginning to end, Haytham too.
Gods such a great story. And then the next game was just "ey I'm a pirate-oh now I'm sad-ey my daughter is visiting. Let's reminisce about men who betrayed me after I knew them for one week"
XD