My high school drama teacher wouldn't allow us to use cockney accents in our production of Les Mis because it was a pet peeve of hers that it took place in France. Boy, I really wish I could see her reaction to this.
I can’t speak for your drama teacher, but as a fellow pedant with a soft spot for French, I don’t find myself entirely convinced by the case that was made here for Les Mis in particular, even if I enjoyed the video as a whole. It was still a French musical adapting a French work. Unfortunately, only bringing up the musical’s origins at the end once the case has already been made, just doesn’t sit right with me. It really downplays the original writers and artists who made it and their contributions to the work, in my view. I think the video makes a very compelling case for inspiration going both ways across the Channel, but the video’s conclusions go too far by claiming it as fundamentally part of a British tradition. On some level, this feels like apologetics for cultural erasure.
@christophertaylor8166 while the book is french the musical is british even the french version is so far separated from the book it could be considered a translation
I know you couldn't mention *every* cockney musical, but I feel disappointed you didn't mention chitty chitty bang bang. It will always rank in that genre for me
I thought of that while I was watching the video but forgot all about it by the end, her analysis was that compelling. Maybe she’s never seen it? It might not be that familiar to her generation.
I feel like it's interesting that Eponine never seems to inherit the. cockney accents of her parents (and her brother) even though she is living in the same environment as them, since cockney accents codify them as lower class, unglamorous and kind of caricatures, while she is a tragic, romantic figure. It would be cool to see an On my Own attempted with a cockney accent
Yeah there's it's really kind of gross when you think about it. Almost like saying women with that accent can be pitied, evil, mocked, or strong. But they can't be attractive, empathetic, or a romantic interest. Notably this seems to be only a Les Mis thing. Though My Fair Lady comes uncomfortably close to it.
@@LC-sc3en this is an actual representation of the actual view the world has on class, nationality and race in relation to femininity(and much more). Poor people are deemed to have less complex emotions due to their lack of intelligence and ed, they cant be delicate or sentimental
Wow thank you so much for explaining why i love this very specific style of musical. I couldnt put it into words or even categorize it. I was in a production of Oliver! when I was super young but my dad’s homophobia pulled me away from the theatre. But now youre making me wish I’d stick with it even more than I already do
Theory: Hello Dolly is an "American cockney" musical. Your statement about not having a New York musical made me think of this. Sure it goes to glamorous places with Dolly being an old socialite, but even in restaurant the focus is on the waiters and kitchen staff. The romantics are lower class, pretending to be wealthy, the emotional focus is a feed store owner, and Dolly herself is mainly a matchmaker. While there are a few solos, the main songs turn into big dancing choruses with very singable refrains... Yeah, the more I think about this, the more it fits, if you count the Muppets without the accent, then i think that Hello Dolly only lacks the accent and the location. It whistful about the past, it's about the working classes, glorifying love over money, and has very sly critique's of wealth culture, with Dolly finding friendship in a life that she didn't have with her previous husband
2. … and suggest that some historical precedent may also be found in characters of Gilbert and Sullivan operettas. “The Pirates of Penzance” in particular has a history of productions in which Cockney underbelly takes center stage, or ship.
This is virtually a scholarly work. It’s so wide-ranging, and I learned so much from it! I was particularly interested in the connection between the cockney musical and the Royal Shakespeare Company’s production of Nicholas Nickleby. I remember also Marat/Sade, another RSC production from the 1960s. Some of the same revolutionary-political- working class backdrop, complete with choruses and cockney accents. Your dissection here is really brilliant.
OM Goodness!! I'm so enthralled with your contact! Now I have to come to England. On my list of to-dos, will be one or more of your tours. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us! 🙋🏾♀️❤️🎉
Thanks, this was a great video! I think your commentary on the cockney musical is very insightful, but I think there is another reason that Les Miz uses English accents: English accents, broadly, convey social class to native English speakers better than any other accent. We aren't going to understand upper-class versus lower-class French accents. Even when the show moved to Broadway, I think that the cockney and R.P. accents convey social class much more easily to the American ear than equivalent American accents. Of course, the reason that we understand the class implications of those accents is because we grew up watching Mary Poppins and Oliver Twist and My Fair Lady, so I suppose that circles us back to the cockney musical.
This is correct and why I was taught, as an actor, simply not to use them. Because if you cannot perform an accent accurately, you'll just sound insulting. If a Cockney accent is something you can perform with accuracy or you naturally speak with a Cockney accent, you're welcome and encouraged to use it. Otherwise you are being very insulting to people who have and consistently do struggle. You're a privileged person who is "playing" at being poor for the entertainment for a lot of rich people. It's not very nice. Do it right and understand the weight of what you do or don't do it at all. If an audience member can't understand where that character comes from with the exposition you're giving, then you never were going to have them. If the risk of breaking the immersion of the audience is greater than satisfying one little philistine... Don't do it.
I disagree that social class isn't conveyed (to Americans) by American accents... My counterexample is Newsies... the original film. Here you have Hearst and Roosevelt, and the finance guy at the World speaking very clear Midatlantic accents, with Pulitzer having an immigrant version of it, signifying upper class. You have Denton, Snyder, David's family, the police, nuns, and other bourgeois characters speaking with a general American accent, and the newsboys and street characters of the working poor all speaking with New York accents. An American gets it instinctively. If we accept the premise that there is such a thing as a cockney musical, then Newsies clearly fits, but as a distinctively American one that nonetheless conveys all the class distinctions clearly and unambiguously. I think you're right about other native English Speakers though.
This is a fabulous analysis, thank you so much for sharing it with us. I believe that your delineation of Cockney Musical should absolutely become a recognised genre!
Well done indeed! That was a most detailed and, dare I say erudite explanation. I'm an Aussie living in Australia but should I ever get to the UK again ('75 was the first and last time) I'll certainly book you for a private tour!
This was a fabulous video! Thank you for providing such a thorough overview of the Cockney musical! Even though it's set in Wallsend, The Last Ship follows a lot of the conventions that you mentioned. I wonder if Sting and his theatrical team were inspired by the Cockney musicals?
Great video, and interesting thesis. I certainly think you can see a "genealogy" of cockney musicals as you put it, but I think there's certainly more at play here. I think any musical about class structure and struggles, especially playing to an English audience the cockney accent is a shortcut to explain who a character is an what they represent, Oliver! is certainly an influence here, but there is a wider social phenomenon at play. The thing I have always found interesting about this, is in English speaking productions (especially movies) of any period piece the standard accent will be an English accent. Just look at the 2012 film 'Anna Karenina', set in 19th century Russia but all the accents (and many of the actors) are very British. I think, particularly for Americans the past in general speaks with an English accent. And as noted, when you want to have characters of various social classes, the variety and how well known they are, means you can take many shortcuts by using different English accents.
I want to also say I was reminded of (a very visual format) essay of yours in this video Jenny. Thankyou for taking the time for such an informative piece! Particularly the link directly quoted of having just seen Oliver at during adapting the musical version of Les Miserables. So glad TH-cam did a throw-back suggestion to me for this
Fedora, I agree that 'there's certainly more at play here'... but that actually was the consistent arguement being made throughout the video, of that a set of features groups these musicals together.I I think you were hyperfocused on the word Cockney, and the arguement that use of that accent was one aspect of this set of musicals, but not the defining feature. Really the big chorus and social setting are what stands out from the "big numbers": that remain playing over in your head long after leaving the show( or taking eyes off the screen).
Adored this❣️🎶🎼🎹🪕 The books I read as a child were set in London or New York.( I'm 70, in Txxzz😡😢) Sunday nights on the radio in the mid 60s were 4 British half-hour shows:The lives of Harry Lyme (from The Third Man, Secrets of Scotland Yard, The Black Museum (weapons in Scotland Yard) and Theatre Royale, radio dramas of all sorts. I'd wake up Mondays with British accents, mixed! I started in theatre at 4 yrs old, have ALWAYS loved Broadway musicals (til weber and rice Disneyfied them) Was in a regional production of Oliver! as a kid. My Fair Lady is a longtime fave, have seen 3 movie versions and 2 of Pygmalion, and the study of regional accents fascinates me still. Les Mis overwhelmed me, have never gotten through it all~ I think because there are So many voices in the songs I can't hear the words, and I understand Lyrics better than music. Learning it's ties to Oliver, and your breakdown of its tropes makes me want to give it a go again👍🏽😃 I've studied Cockney rhyming slang, and its codes for underworld antics. Cockney is like Brooklyn, especially in the late 1800s. Horatio Alger books about young lads who lived on the streets, as newsboys, bootblacks, etc, often mention going to the Bowery for cheap entertainment, music hall singalongs, melodramas, Very similar to street kids in London. And I'm learning about Panto, Punch and Judy etc. I just found your channel and have watched several hours of you today 😄 I've been mostly homeless for years, multiple disabilities and trying to survive til I can find a room to rent that's less than my whole Soc Sec check, so can't do Patreon til I get outta here🤷🏽♀️ I Will share your vids and tout your channel though ❣️❣️❣️🎶👍🏽👏🏾✌🏾🤘🏾😘
I have recently been exploring the works of Richard Leveridge (1670-1758), a notable historic theater singer and prolific composer of popular English music. The material I have been looking at was originally published during the 18th century in periodical form, being intended as musical accompaniment for singing, dancing and games at social gatherings. Often printed in a “pocket size” format, each volume would contain an evening’s worth of portable music, much like a playlist today. The reason I am sharing this is to do with the discussion in the video about the “sing along chorus” aspect of the cockney musical. This was a standard feature in many of Leveridges most popular tunes, The Roast Beef of Old England being the most well known today. It wasn’t until recently that I realized how old the cockney sing along chorus format really is. While I had not yet recognized the form in those terms, I did recognize it as a style that I knew. Reading through and playing these tunes evoked images of a setting much like those we see in Oliver etc. Your video was very timely. Not only did it reinforce a notion I was already forming, it helped me bring a very obscure curiosity about the past forward into a relevant present day context. It underscores the ongoing realization that our theater practices are all very old. Even the most recent forms are actually based in deep historical traditions. Thanks for sharing this video. I quite enjoyed it, as I do with all your presentations.
I noticed you flashed up a few clips from "Scrooge" with Albert Finney, but I'm not sure you mentioned it directly like you mentioned "A Muppet Christmas Carol," but I feel like it definitely adds to the list of Cockney musicals. Editing to add: Your mention of "Mary Poppins" made me think of "Me Ol' Bamboo" from "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang." The Sherman Brothers wrote both it and "Step in Time"--both inspired by "Knees Up Mother Brown." While Chitty might not make the Cockney musical list, it's a great little musical hall inspired number.
Congratulations and best of luck on your transition to independent work!!! I am super bummed as we've just returned from a trip to the UK. Would have loved touring London with you. However, I wasnt aware of you until our return.😢 Hope it's going well!!!
Opera isn't for the upper classes today. Not in continental Europe at least. Lots of students in their 20s go regularly and most people just dress casually, coming straight from work or uni often times. Opera is actually a lot cheaper than musicals. Opera tickets start at 10 Euros in Germany, whilst musicals start at 40 Euros or so. Opera is really better value for money, especially considering the superb >100 person orchestras in the pit... And the singers tend to be of a much higher caliber too, in the major houses. Really, there is no going back to overpriced revivals of Cats or Lion King, once you get into classical music!
Wonderful video! It is so great to know the influence “Oliver!” had. I saw the movie in 1968 when I was 11 and loved it. That is when I started crushing on Jack Wild. I followed his career until he was no longer on the US scene. Image my surprise when he ended up in “Robin Hood Prince of Thieves”. It is so sad how life turned out for him.
Great video essay! Related is the work of Anthony Newley and Leslie Bricusse - Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory and Dr. Doolittle seem to fall in the genre neatly.
I'm going to watch this video, because I've watched other videos of yours and they were great, but before we start, I'm going to say this: of course they have English accents, the musical's in English! The original French-language production didn't have English accents, but the English-language translation on West End naturally had English accents. (The real question is, why do they still use British English accents when on tour in the States? And the answer there is that we know your accents, and we love them.)
Well, this is still basically the answer, an answer that you gave almost at the very beginning, but it was very enjoyable half hour of you saying ‹But there's a bit more to it than just that›!
@@Blazingstoke : To be honest, the only British accents that I've heard in American productions are from the Thénardiers[*] and Gavroche (and not consistently between productions even for them). But they're the relevant ones for a Cockney musical! [*] Gavroche is also a Thénardier according to the book, although you wouldn't know that from the musical. On the other hand, I don't think that I've heard any particular accent from Éponine, who is a Thénardier as well. So by ‘the Thénardiers’ I just mean Monsieur and Madame.
I agree those sentiments are present in Threepenny Opera, but the line "What crime is robbing a bank compared to owning one" technically comes from another Brecht/Weill piece, Happy End (a kind of proto Guys and Dolls, with its storyline of a mission woman falling in love with a gangster.)
I always thought of it as just an easy way to class-code characters when the fourth wall is translating them into English anyway. RP=this character is posh, cockney=this character is working class It isn’t just musicals, it has its own page on TV Tropes, “The Queens Latin”
As a non native English speaker in a world where globally successful movies are almost always in English, I actually hate the trend wherein movies taking place "actually" in another language, are transposed into English with the original language's accent. Speaking English with, say, a French accent, may give the viewers a general feeling that the original language was French, but it also inevitably gives the impression that the characters are speaking in a language that is foreign to their won, which is not what you're trying to portray. It makes no sense to me.
I always thought it made perfect sense: If they spoke in French accents, it would be silly, because we, the audience, are supposed to be hearing THEIR NATIVE TONGUE. But in London, who's going to watch a play presenting in French? Not many. But, make them speak and sing in English, and it's fine. It's just like dubbing an anime. You don't give the characters Japanese accents. You just give them the accents of the country, where the dubbing is happening. You want the audience to feel like it's real. I mean, how many French people go around speaking French with a put-upon accent, just to emphasize taht they are French? Or would ALL the ENTIRE CAST be speaking English, but with French accents, because they are French? NO! They'd be speaking FRENCH. So, putting English accents on the characters is just "dubbing" the play from "the original French" (even though it was written by an Englishman, in English), and when you dub, you don't confuse the audience with foreign accents. As for some people using RP, and others Cockney, that's to indicate their class and level of education (or in the case of Jean Valjean, his level of putting on an act to blend in with the upper class/educated crowd). If it were first performed in America, I'd expect to hear the Newscaster accent (it's a sort of blend of midwest, apparently), along with some South and New York or Jersey. People have a tendency to portray lower class as "rednecks," for example, so they'd probably go South for the poor people. And probably Jersey or New York for the Thenardiers. And possibly East Coast for the students. And if it were first performed in Germany, I'd expect everyone to be singing and speaking in German.
Normally, I don’t have a problem understanding British accents, but at 30:02 I was sure you had said “Becoming Nazi”, and for a few seconds I was wondering what German fascists had to do with Cockney musicals.
Even if someone somehow hasn’t been exposed to dickens, it still provides some great shorthand that English speakers around the world understand: “these characters sound like they’re wealthy and educated. These characters sound like they’re working class”
This is always the reason I attributed it to. It's like watching dubbed anime and getting inexplicable Christopher Walken and Peter Lorre impressions, or characters having rural southern American accents- it's about translating cultural touchstones across cultures.
The film Chocolat (based on the book of the same name) is also set in France... Johnny Depps character is a traveler/gypsy/nomad character...a french one... So they give him an Irish accent...😶 I assume for the reason you mentioned. I sure wouldn't be able to tell a posh french accent from any other. Especially not one done dubiously by an entirely British cast.
It depends on what you’ve been exposed to. If you’ve consumed a decent amount of English (or sometimes American) media, then yes, you’ll have this association. But it isn’t automatic.
I’d argue that Newsies is the American contribution to this genre of musical. The New York accents are notoriously and comically thick and I really don’t think they come across as glamorous, perhaps just a little less influenced by pantomime. It’s working class, nostalgic, and it certainly has some big dance numbers as well as social commentary.
Really true and it even stars a Brit in the movie lmao Also the movie is much more gritty and keeps with the genre more closely than the new stage adaptation
Heck, I’d say the Music Man has contributed to it as well. Rock Island, Ya Got Trouble, Pickalittle, and Shipoopi are influenced by the dialect of 1900s hucksters. Harold Hill isn’t a picture of morality, but he’s trying his best to make a living. The Pajama Game also has some similarities, since you’ve got Racing with the Clock, Once a Year Day, There Once Was a Man, Steam Heat, and 7 1/2 Cents on top of a working class cast. They’re more glamorous, though.
I'd argue America's best answer to the cockney musical is The Cradle Will Rock. Big cast (though no specific "chorus"), working class protagonists, biting social commentary, and like Threepenny Opera and Sweeney Todd, it's in the Brechtian style. The biggest difference is that it was set in the time it was originally written and produced, so there is not veneer of nostalgia to protect the audience.
I wonder why they didn't translate this to the Dutch version. In most English language musicals, RP gets translated to Algemeen Nederlands (General Dutch, what they speak on TV), but Cockney, NYC, or other working class accents turn into Jordaans, Amsterdam local speak. Bert in Mary Poppins or Eliza in My Fair Lady, for example, speak like this. African accents also often get translated into Caribbean Dutch and get an Antillian or Suriname twist to it (if appropriate). Often, even if there's regional accents they'll do smth with that (Scottish often becomes Frisian, and in American originals with specific British ppl, they'll often be Flemish). But in Les Mis they do speak more slurily or properly, but they did not apply class based accents, though they could have easily. Interesting!
They didn't even translate this to the _Broadway_ version, really. The script was the same as the London production, Briticisms and all, but it was all sung with a pretty neutral American accent.
"...and the Beadle and Javert have the same hat" 🤣I am LOVING this! I hadn't thought about musical characters in the US being glam, but that may be a selective bias...and Newsies weren't! Anyway, LOVE this idea--thanks for pointing me to it from the clock app :)
Yeah I don't think that's a fair assessment after WWII. Before, yes, American plays were huge glamorous reviews, but that all shifted with Oklahoma in 1943. And you definitely can't say it about theater now. By some of these definitions, you could say In the Heights is a cockney musical just set in modern New York.
I must note that Oliver the novel was published in 1837 and that the June rebellion of 1832 is the big historic highlight of Les Misérables (published 1862). The time periods are almost contemporary.
I got my hands on the French concept album years before I heard the Broadway cast album or saw the show in person. I appreciate your digging into Boublil's own desire to replicate Oliver. My gripe about the English lyrics is that the music is written for the French lyrics, which does the French thing of compressing way more syllables into a beat than normally happens in English. And as much as the English lyrics try and often succeed in meeting the music at least half way, there are bits where it sounds awkward when compared to the same passage in French. Also mildly annoyed that Gavroche's English lyrics are toned down in the criticism of the system.
The French lyrics are actually not that good. And you can feel that instead of having the music written for them, it is actually the contrary, the French text is sometimes painfully adjusted to fit the songs. Which leads to unsatisfying parts such as "A la volonté du peuple", a song that is supposed to become a popular hymn during Lamarque's funeral procession, when the French text actually suggests that Enjolras sings it for his friends around a bottle of wine in the ABC café. The English version really captures the bravado of the demonstrators, the challenge that is flung in the face of the establishment, and the hope of the oppressed classes. Thénardier's monologue "La devise du cabaretier" is likewise terribly awkward, using pedantic formulations that do not establish the real nature of Thénardier, and sound pretty ridiculous (why that reference to Switzerland?). The English text "Master of the house" is miles above. Other parts are actually very good in French, and likewise, efficiently translated in English ("La journée est finie - Another day over", for example). Gavroche's song is not a very good song in French, but it was considered to be the best of the lot and was released as a single that hit the charts. I peronnally think it does not fit into the ensemble, as it really feels like it has been written just of that purpose.
@@Bodhran67 Problem is there are two french versions : the one that was produced as a concept album then on stage was the very original one. When they produced the English version, they wildly made a lot of changes with the story and the songs. For example, the moving "Air de la misère" sung by Fantine (Beautifully performed by Rose Laurens) became "On my own" for Eponine. A long prologue was also added for the non-french audience less familiar with Hugo's novel. "A la volonté du peuple" was not meant to be a people song but a oath taken by the students : only the changes made it a song for public confrontation in English. Then the English production was re-adapted in French and there came most of the lyrics issues where there was none at first. As far as I love the original french production, (Gavroche's parts included : his song uses a lot of lyrics by Victor Hugo himself as written in the novel) I agree the second version is not as great as it could have been and I prefer the "original" English by far.
I think one major reason for the death of cockney musicals (and showtune-based musicals in general) is Hair, which essentially invented the rock musical. It also inspired Andrew Lloyd Webber’s early works and his success subsequently lent itself to set-piece-heavy pop/rock musicals. I would argue that most musicals today aren’t comprised of show-tunes, but rather a genre of choice blended with narrative lyrics. Hadestown is folk, Six is diva pop, etc. It is a shame that the pop/rock musical has led to so many jukebox musicals. They’re not bad on principle but half of Broadway right now is jukebox and it’s exhausting. Edit: fixed some misspellings
I agree with your assessment completely. I was going to say that jukebox musicals killed off the cockney style musicals but your analysis is more thorough and I agree completely. Let's not forget that the Golden age of American musical theater too was very much jazz based and even those style musicals are still viable today than a cockney style. I also agree that jukebox musicals are stale and old. But...Shucked has given me hope for more original music.
seemingly all new musicals have to be adaptations/based on stories people know, or jukebox musicals (so based on music people know) (or both! looking at you Back To The Future (at least partly)) to get enough people through the doors to make their investment back
I think it's partly because jukebox musicals are easy to create. You're not writing brand new songs, you're taking Abba's greatest hits. Heck sometimes they have songs with names so you can use that to create your characters even. Then you just write a silly storyline that incorporates the songs based on their meaning, or not, who cares. And the recognition of that singer, band, genre of music, etc. will get butts in seats and ensure you're making back your investment. A new concept takes a lot of writing and rewriting and reworking and still might never catch on.
Cool info. I never thought about Les Mis from its theater roots, and once you've explained the background of the producers this reason for the accents is the strongest. But as a big fan of the novel, I would say I think Victor Hugo would like what the Brits have done. I've read that he intentionally added a lot more slang dialogue and intentionally incorrect grammar in the dialog of characters like Thenardier than any other French authors were doing at the time. Apparently it was much commented on at the time, with some people disapproving, and other people getting all excited about the dialects of the Parisian underclass, kind of like how (coincidentally) all my friends in the 90's in America learned about Cockney rhyming slang from Guy Ritchie movies. So dialect was a big part of the novel too. With only high school French to guide me I'd never pick up on the cultural context of 1800's Parisian argot. And if one was to try to stage a musical in English, and then try to have people sing English in different French accents, I don't think anyone anywhere would understand. So when they translated the French prose to English lyrics, it totally makes sense to translate the accents and dialogue along the lines of the roughly equivalent British social classes. British people will pick up on the meaning automatically, and even if Americans don't know every distinction of it, most of us are pretty aware of the general implication of Cockney vs "posh". So I always assumed that was why the musical was like that. But either way it came about, the novel is very, very much about social commentary, and the musicals translate the spirit of it pretty well.
Angela Lansbury is playing the heck out of the role of Mrs. Lovett in that scene, that's what she's doing. 🥰 Sweeney Todd is my all time favorite musical.
What Angela Lansbury is doing there at about 18:30 is letting Mrs. Lovett's soul rejoice that she's not only hit upon a scheme that may finally help her out of crushing poverty, she's also looped in an accomplice who is the perfect source for fresh supplies who also happens to be the man for whom she's had a long standing desire.
Good video but found it disappointing that name Herbert Kretzmer- who only wrote pretty much all the English lyrics for Les Miserables!- got zero mention. In addition, the culture of the Jewish East End had a influence in several of the "minor key" songs in Oliver (Pick a Pocket or Two, Reviewing the Situation, That's Your Funeral, Be Back Soon) and that also influenced songs like Master of the House.
Is "Hello Dolly" a cockney musical set in the US? You mention that "newsies" is different, but I think it fits the bill pretty well too, especially the musical (not movie) version. I think "working-class musicals with a 19th century setting" would a bit more accurate.
I love that you used Feuilly as an example of characters! He’s one of my absolute favourites, but he’s not usually who you first think of when you talk about Les Mis.
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang springs to mind too even though there are no proper Cockneys in the film/musical… they do have a great chorus number, ‘Toot Sweet’. I wonder what sort of accent Caractucus Potts would have if he wasn’t played by Dick van Dyke. I guess he’d be on he RP side of things… being that Jeremy and Jemima had posh accents and he ends up with Truly Scrumptious. Though, “Grandpa” (surely, Grandad??) was more Cockney…
For an American equivalent, working-class London is like working-class Brooklyn. Think Bugs Bunny, or "Eyyy, I'm walkin' 'ere!" Cockney is more akin to South Boston. Which I don't feel comfortable writing out on youtube bc they might ban me, because the sound and lack of rhyming slang may be different, but they both do love their four-letter words starting with c and f, and manage to make entire sentences out of variations on those two words in traffic, or at least those are the only two words the non-native object of their ire would understand.
Local idioms are often so obscure for non-natives that they are difficult to clearly identify and tell apart from others. Idiomatic english is exactly like Walloon (a dialect spoken in the French speaking South of Belgium). Walloon has many regional variants and huge pronunciation and vocabulary differences, but a non-Walloon speaker will not be able to tell them apart, and most of the time it is the swear words (which we are very partial to ;-) ) that stick out like sore thumbs.
Excellent observation, but for the sake of accuracy, Bugs Bunny had a “New Joisey” accent rather than a New York accent. Mel Blanc himself confirmed this.
It’s interesting working at a retirement village because a lot of activities are focused on nostalgia for the residents and a lot of the songs they play during these activities are from cockney musicals (there’s a lot from Oliver)
Mind blown about Les Mis. I say that having worked on the show as a lighting tech on an off since the 90's and lost count of how many times I've seen it (the10th year cast of casts is still the best ever) I never knew about its relationship with Oliver!
As an America, I grew up believing Oliver was a cat until I joined the theater in high school. Now I freaking love all those songs, I don't even care if they get stuck in my head years later
Haha, I'm British and I might be the only person in the UK who remembers Disney's Oliver and Company. I had sticker book of it. Hadn't thought about it in a while but Street Savoire Faire is gonna be playing in my head for a few days now I bet!
This is fantastic! The clarity and sheer delivery in how you present the information, how you balance the scope with thoroughness; you go into such precise detail without it feeling like an academic essay. Even your audio/video editing is top notch. Kicking myself to have moved out of London before discovering your tours!
Loved this! I had just showed my partner Les Mis and he asked why they have london accents if it’s set in france, and my answer was nowhere near this thorough. Thank you!!!
I've always contextualized it as "native France French speakers have an accent (compared to Quebec, etc), so when translated into English, and taking place in England, the characters should have English accents.
Dearest Jenny, I found your channel one day last week and have fallen down a rabbit hole of your content for the past 2 hours. I love it! I am learning so much and adore your content. Thank you ❤ ~ Rose
I miss your full length videos!! 😭😭 I enjoy the shorts too but you're so interesting! I legit don't even like musicals but I LOVE history! So Im fascinated this whole videos!
My high school drama teacher wouldn't allow us to use cockney accents in our production of Les Mis because it was a pet peeve of hers that it took place in France. Boy, I really wish I could see her reaction to this.
I can’t speak for your drama teacher, but as a fellow pedant with a soft spot for French, I don’t find myself entirely convinced by the case that was made here for Les Mis in particular, even if I enjoyed the video as a whole.
It was still a French musical adapting a French work. Unfortunately, only bringing up the musical’s origins at the end once the case has already been made, just doesn’t sit right with me. It really downplays the original writers and artists who made it and their contributions to the work, in my view. I think the video makes a very compelling case for inspiration going both ways across the Channel, but the video’s conclusions go too far by claiming it as fundamentally part of a British tradition. On some level, this feels like apologetics for cultural erasure.
Probably grumbly.
@christophertaylor8166 while the book is french the musical is british even the french version is so far separated from the book it could be considered a translation
@@bisneytm1511 the musical is french too ;) The original version 1980 is in French and way less separated from the book than english version
@@christophertaylor8166all of Shakespeare's works were originally performed with contemporary clothes and English accents...
I know you couldn't mention *every* cockney musical, but I feel disappointed you didn't mention chitty chitty bang bang. It will always rank in that genre for me
I was thinking of that as well!
I thought of that while I was watching the video but forgot all about it by the end, her analysis was that compelling. Maybe she’s never seen it? It might not be that familiar to her generation.
@@shinyshinythings you say that, but I'm under 30 (just about!)
I had the same thought. There should be at least a hat tip to The Ol' Bamboo,
It's Truly Scrumptious! ❤
I feel like it's interesting that Eponine never seems to inherit the. cockney accents of her parents (and her brother) even though she is living in the same environment as them, since cockney accents codify them as lower class, unglamorous and kind of caricatures, while she is a tragic, romantic figure. It would be cool to see an On my Own attempted with a cockney accent
I'd love to see it, but it wouldn't get the point across as much as Éponine's current accent
imagine, if you will, a very Australian Eponine. "Ivrey wuhrd thet he siz is a degga in mayyyyyy!"
Yeah there's it's really kind of gross when you think about it. Almost like saying women with that accent can be pitied, evil, mocked, or strong. But they can't be attractive, empathetic, or a romantic interest. Notably this seems to be only a Les Mis thing. Though My Fair Lady comes uncomfortably close to it.
@@LC-sc3en this is an actual representation of the actual view the world has on class, nationality and race in relation to femininity(and much more). Poor people are deemed to have less complex emotions due to their lack of intelligence and ed, they cant be delicate or sentimental
On My Own in the style of As Long as He Needs Me. I’d see that.
Wow thank you so much for explaining why i love this very specific style of musical. I couldnt put it into words or even categorize it. I was in a production of Oliver! when I was super young but my dad’s homophobia pulled me away from the theatre. But now youre making me wish I’d stick with it even more than I already do
Yo I'm so sorry that happened to you. That is absolutely horrible
Snap, though when I came out my parents were uber supportive.
Theory: Hello Dolly is an "American cockney" musical. Your statement about not having a New York musical made me think of this. Sure it goes to glamorous places with Dolly being an old socialite, but even in restaurant the focus is on the waiters and kitchen staff. The romantics are lower class, pretending to be wealthy, the emotional focus is a feed store owner, and Dolly herself is mainly a matchmaker. While there are a few solos, the main songs turn into big dancing choruses with very singable refrains...
Yeah, the more I think about this, the more it fits, if you count the Muppets without the accent, then i think that Hello Dolly only lacks the accent and the location.
It whistful about the past, it's about the working classes, glorifying love over money, and has very sly critique's of wealth culture, with Dolly finding friendship in a life that she didn't have with her previous husband
I’d also offer up The Unsinkable Molly Brown for the same reasons!
@@mikaylaeager7942 good point
The one difference I'd say is cockney musicals have roots in music hall sound whereas American standards like Dolly and Molly are American jazz based
2. … and suggest that some historical precedent may also be found in characters of Gilbert and Sullivan operettas. “The Pirates of Penzance” in particular has a history of productions in which Cockney underbelly takes center stage, or ship.
not sure if Gilbert and Sullivan influenced the rest of early Victorian burlesque/musical comedy/light opera these things or the other way around
This is a fantastic video, I hope the algorithm is showing it to more people. It deserves to be watched more.
I'm off to watch Oliver now.
This is virtually a scholarly work. It’s so wide-ranging, and I learned so much from it! I was particularly interested in the connection between the cockney musical and the Royal Shakespeare Company’s production of Nicholas Nickleby. I remember also Marat/Sade, another RSC production from the 1960s. Some of the same revolutionary-political- working class backdrop, complete with choruses and cockney accents. Your dissection here is really brilliant.
Thank you for satisfying my Englishness. I'm Visually Impaired and I love your videos.
OM Goodness!! I'm so enthralled with your contact! Now I have to come to England. On my list of to-dos, will be one or more of your tours. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us! 🙋🏾♀️❤️🎉
You have inspired me. If I write a musical I will honor the Cockney musical genre 🙏
This was so interesting! I've often wondered about the class elements of using different accents in musicals, particularly in Les Mis! Thanks :D
STANDING OVATION for this video!! I didn't come to this channel until after I found you on TikTok as a tour guide, so this is kind of cool!
Thanks, this was a great video! I think your commentary on the cockney musical is very insightful, but I think there is another reason that Les Miz uses English accents: English accents, broadly, convey social class to native English speakers better than any other accent. We aren't going to understand upper-class versus lower-class French accents. Even when the show moved to Broadway, I think that the cockney and R.P. accents convey social class much more easily to the American ear than equivalent American accents. Of course, the reason that we understand the class implications of those accents is because we grew up watching Mary Poppins and Oliver Twist and My Fair Lady, so I suppose that circles us back to the cockney musical.
I said the same! Glad I’m not alone in this observation.
This is correct and why I was taught, as an actor, simply not to use them. Because if you cannot perform an accent accurately, you'll just sound insulting. If a Cockney accent is something you can perform with accuracy or you naturally speak with a Cockney accent, you're welcome and encouraged to use it.
Otherwise you are being very insulting to people who have and consistently do struggle. You're a privileged person who is "playing" at being poor for the entertainment for a lot of rich people. It's not very nice. Do it right and understand the weight of what you do or don't do it at all. If an audience member can't understand where that character comes from with the exposition you're giving, then you never were going to have them.
If the risk of breaking the immersion of the audience is greater than satisfying one little philistine... Don't do it.
I disagree that social class isn't conveyed (to Americans) by American accents... My counterexample is Newsies... the original film. Here you have Hearst and Roosevelt, and the finance guy at the World speaking very clear Midatlantic accents, with Pulitzer having an immigrant version of it, signifying upper class. You have Denton, Snyder, David's family, the police, nuns, and other bourgeois characters speaking with a general American accent, and the newsboys and street characters of the working poor all speaking with New York accents. An American gets it instinctively.
If we accept the premise that there is such a thing as a cockney musical, then Newsies clearly fits, but as a distinctively American one that nonetheless conveys all the class distinctions clearly and unambiguously.
I think you're right about other native English Speakers though.
This is a fabulous analysis, thank you so much for sharing it with us. I believe that your delineation of Cockney Musical should absolutely become a recognised genre!
Well done indeed! That was a most detailed and, dare I say erudite explanation. I'm an Aussie living in Australia but should I ever get to the UK again ('75 was the first and last time) I'll certainly book you for a private tour!
This was a fabulous video! Thank you for providing such a thorough overview of the Cockney musical! Even though it's set in Wallsend, The Last Ship follows a lot of the conventions that you mentioned. I wonder if Sting and his theatrical team were inspired by the Cockney musicals?
Great video, and interesting thesis. I certainly think you can see a "genealogy" of cockney musicals as you put it, but I think there's certainly more at play here. I think any musical about class structure and struggles, especially playing to an English audience the cockney accent is a shortcut to explain who a character is an what they represent, Oliver! is certainly an influence here, but there is a wider social phenomenon at play.
The thing I have always found interesting about this, is in English speaking productions (especially movies) of any period piece the standard accent will be an English accent. Just look at the 2012 film 'Anna Karenina', set in 19th century Russia but all the accents (and many of the actors) are very British. I think, particularly for Americans the past in general speaks with an English accent. And as noted, when you want to have characters of various social classes, the variety and how well known they are, means you can take many shortcuts by using different English accents.
I want to also say I was reminded of (a very visual format) essay of yours in this video Jenny. Thankyou for taking the time for such an informative piece!
Particularly the link directly quoted of having just seen Oliver at during adapting the musical version of Les Miserables.
So glad TH-cam did a throw-back suggestion to me for this
Fedora, I agree that 'there's certainly more at play here'... but that actually was the consistent arguement being made throughout the video, of that a set of features groups these musicals together.I I think you were hyperfocused on the word Cockney, and the arguement that use of that accent was one aspect of this set of musicals, but not the defining feature. Really the big chorus and social setting are what stands out from the "big numbers": that remain playing over in your head long after leaving the show( or taking eyes off the screen).
Adored this❣️🎶🎼🎹🪕
The books I read as a child were set in London or New York.( I'm 70, in Txxzz😡😢)
Sunday nights on the radio in the mid 60s were 4 British half-hour shows:The lives of Harry Lyme (from The Third Man, Secrets of Scotland Yard, The Black Museum (weapons in Scotland Yard) and Theatre Royale, radio dramas of all sorts. I'd wake up Mondays with British accents, mixed! I started in theatre at 4 yrs old, have ALWAYS loved Broadway musicals (til weber and rice Disneyfied them)
Was in a regional production of Oliver! as a kid. My Fair Lady is a longtime fave, have seen 3 movie versions and 2 of Pygmalion, and the study of regional accents fascinates me still.
Les Mis overwhelmed me, have never gotten through it all~ I think because there are So many voices in the songs I can't hear the words, and I understand Lyrics better than music. Learning it's ties to Oliver, and your breakdown of its tropes makes me want to give it a go again👍🏽😃
I've studied Cockney rhyming slang, and its codes for underworld antics.
Cockney is like Brooklyn, especially in the late 1800s. Horatio Alger books about young lads who lived on the streets, as newsboys, bootblacks, etc, often mention going to the Bowery for cheap entertainment, music hall singalongs, melodramas, Very similar to street kids in London.
And I'm learning about Panto, Punch and Judy etc. I just found your channel and have watched several hours of you today 😄
I've been mostly homeless for years, multiple disabilities and trying to survive til I can find a room to rent that's less than my whole Soc Sec check, so can't do Patreon til I get outta here🤷🏽♀️
I Will share your vids and tout your channel though ❣️❣️❣️🎶👍🏽👏🏾✌🏾🤘🏾😘
I have recently been exploring the works of Richard Leveridge (1670-1758), a notable historic theater singer and prolific composer of popular English music. The material I have been looking at was originally published during the 18th century in periodical form, being intended as musical accompaniment for singing, dancing and games at social gatherings. Often printed in a “pocket size” format, each volume would contain an evening’s worth of portable music, much like a playlist today.
The reason I am sharing this is to do with the discussion in the video about the “sing along chorus” aspect of the cockney musical. This was a standard feature in many of Leveridges most popular tunes, The Roast Beef of Old England being the most well known today.
It wasn’t until recently that I realized how old the cockney sing along chorus format really is. While I had not yet recognized the form in those terms, I did recognize it as a style that I knew. Reading through and playing these tunes evoked images of a setting much like those we see in Oliver etc. Your video was very timely. Not only did it reinforce a notion I was already forming, it helped me bring a very obscure curiosity about the past forward into a relevant present day context. It underscores the ongoing realization that our theater practices are all very old. Even the most recent forms are actually based in deep historical traditions.
Thanks for sharing this video. I quite enjoyed it, as I do with all your presentations.
I noticed you flashed up a few clips from "Scrooge" with Albert Finney, but I'm not sure you mentioned it directly like you mentioned "A Muppet Christmas Carol," but I feel like it definitely adds to the list of Cockney musicals. Editing to add: Your mention of "Mary Poppins" made me think of "Me Ol' Bamboo" from "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang." The Sherman Brothers wrote both it and "Step in Time"--both inspired by "Knees Up Mother Brown." While Chitty might not make the Cockney musical list, it's a great little musical hall inspired number.
I stumbled upon this creator on youtube shorts. I absolutely love this channel!
As far as I know most americans know oliver twist exists and its the thing that poor boy goes "please sir can I have another" and that's about it.
Your channel is the BEST! Hope you continue to post material on … any platform.
Congratulations and best of luck on your transition to independent work!!! I am super bummed as we've just returned from a trip to the UK. Would have loved touring London with you. However, I wasnt aware of you until our return.😢 Hope it's going well!!!
This was so wonderfully interesting! Thank you loads!
What you described as multicultural london English and showed a clip of reminds me of Bromwell high, I used to love that show when I was a teen
Fantastic documentary J.D.
One of my favourite Youtub channels. Don't go changing...
Opera isn't for the upper classes today.
Not in continental Europe at least. Lots of students in their 20s go regularly and most people just dress casually, coming straight from work or uni often times. Opera is actually a lot cheaper than musicals.
Opera tickets start at 10 Euros in Germany, whilst musicals start at 40 Euros or so.
Opera is really better value for money, especially considering the superb >100 person orchestras in the pit... And the singers tend to be of a much higher caliber too, in the major houses. Really, there is no going back to overpriced revivals of Cats or Lion King, once you get into classical music!
shes talking about it in britian though. In which it still very much is
Great series of videos, much appreciated for all of your efforts
Wonderful video! It is so great to know the influence “Oliver!” had. I saw the movie in 1968 when I was 11 and loved it. That is when I started crushing on Jack Wild. I followed his career until he was no longer on the US scene. Image my surprise when he ended up in “Robin Hood Prince of Thieves”. It is so sad how life turned out for him.
Oh cool! So next time I go to London I can book a tour with you? What a treat!
10th anniversary in albert hall best ive seen ...i enjoyed this i love your french 😅and explanation
LOVE 💓 that you brought up Feuilly. He is one of those unsung Amis de l'ABC who are so often given short shrift...
This video had made me want to watch all of the cockney musicals mentioned for the umpteenth time 😅
Great video essay! Related is the work of Anthony Newley and Leslie Bricusse - Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory and Dr. Doolittle seem to fall in the genre neatly.
This is a great explanation to a question, I have asked my mom for years, and a question my daughters ask me.
I'm going to watch this video, because I've watched other videos of yours and they were great, but before we start, I'm going to say this: of course they have English accents, the musical's in English! The original French-language production didn't have English accents, but the English-language translation on West End naturally had English accents. (The real question is, why do they still use British English accents when on tour in the States? And the answer there is that we know your accents, and we love them.)
Well, this is still basically the answer, an answer that you gave almost at the very beginning, but it was very enjoyable half hour of you saying ‹But there's a bit more to it than just that›!
They do? I've seen two separate touring productions in the US, and neither one of them used British accents. When did this start up?
@@Blazingstoke : To be honest, the only British accents that I've heard in American productions are from the Thénardiers[*] and Gavroche (and not consistently between productions even for them). But they're the relevant ones for a Cockney musical!
[*] Gavroche is also a Thénardier according to the book, although you wouldn't know that from the musical. On the other hand, I don't think that I've heard any particular accent from Éponine, who is a Thénardier as well. So by ‘the Thénardiers’ I just mean Monsieur and Madame.
@@Blazingstoke I just have to compliment you on your username, which I assume is a reference to my beloved hometown!
muppets Christmas Carol is already iconic imagine how much funnier it would've been if they had cockney accents
Well this was absolutely fucking brilliant thanks, so well researched!
There is Cable Street at the Southwark Theatre in 2024. A musical about the battle of Cable Street
I just wanna say, fantastic choice using the 2020 concert. Really underrated, it’s my favorite version of Les Mis
Love this channel
So the Beggar's Opera was the original Jukebox Musical?
Lol they have the same hat, you made me giggle
I wonder how In The Heights would compare to the Cockney Musical format.
When i was in high school we took a trip to LA and saw Me and My Girl.
The musical version of Scrooge? Thank You very Much seems like a Cockney number.
My Yorkshire mother considered everyone from south of the Wash a Cockney! Said with scorn :)
This is excellent!
Next trip to london... im definitely going to see if you are available. And I'll put money on you ending up on TV at some point.
Fantastic video, want more like this!
10:25 o no now i’m trying to imagine muppets voices but with a cockney accent :]
I agree those sentiments are present in Threepenny Opera, but the line "What crime is robbing a bank compared to owning one" technically comes from another Brecht/Weill piece, Happy End (a kind of proto Guys and Dolls, with its storyline of a mission woman falling in love with a gangster.)
Based upon this, I would offer that "Newsies" is an American equivalent of a Cockney musical.
Id like to see a Les Mis done in Scots Gaelic
Greatest French novel? Madame Bovary would like a word with you. Proust would too.
As a Liverpudlian I find this VERY hard to watch! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
OMG mack the knife came from a musical!? I only know it from old jazz
Fascinating, thanks so much!
Terrific treat.
I was going to say Kinky Boots but realised that’s Harvey Fierstein and Cyndi Lauper! Also Matilda ig
I always thought of it as just an easy way to class-code characters when the fourth wall is translating them into English anyway. RP=this character is posh, cockney=this character is working class
It isn’t just musicals, it has its own page on TV Tropes, “The Queens Latin”
As a non native English speaker in a world where globally successful movies are almost always in English, I actually hate the trend wherein movies taking place "actually" in another language, are transposed into English with the original language's accent. Speaking English with, say, a French accent, may give the viewers a general feeling that the original language was French, but it also inevitably gives the impression that the characters are speaking in a language that is foreign to their won, which is not what you're trying to portray. It makes no sense to me.
id LOVE a version of 300 entirely in ancient greek XD
I always thought it made perfect sense: If they spoke in French accents, it would be silly, because we, the audience, are supposed to be hearing THEIR NATIVE TONGUE. But in London, who's going to watch a play presenting in French? Not many. But, make them speak and sing in English, and it's fine. It's just like dubbing an anime. You don't give the characters Japanese accents. You just give them the accents of the country, where the dubbing is happening.
You want the audience to feel like it's real.
I mean, how many French people go around speaking French with a put-upon accent, just to emphasize taht they are French? Or would ALL the ENTIRE CAST be speaking English, but with French accents, because they are French? NO! They'd be speaking FRENCH.
So, putting English accents on the characters is just "dubbing" the play from "the original French" (even though it was written by an Englishman, in English), and when you dub, you don't confuse the audience with foreign accents.
As for some people using RP, and others Cockney, that's to indicate their class and level of education (or in the case of Jean Valjean, his level of putting on an act to blend in with the upper class/educated crowd).
If it were first performed in America, I'd expect to hear the Newscaster accent (it's a sort of blend of midwest, apparently), along with some South and New York or Jersey. People have a tendency to portray lower class as "rednecks," for example, so they'd probably go South for the poor people. And probably Jersey or New York for the Thenardiers. And possibly East Coast for the students.
And if it were first performed in Germany, I'd expect everyone to be singing and speaking in German.
Genuine question: why was I crying through about 60% of this video???
Jellied eel guvnor?
Normally, I don’t have a problem understanding British accents, but at 30:02 I was sure you had said “Becoming Nazi”, and for a few seconds I was wondering what German fascists had to do with Cockney musicals.
Les Mis is the Greatest musical ever made.
Es más creativo el doblaje que el diálogo original
“Wait, it’s all Cockney?”
“Always ‘as been, guv’nor”
Even if someone somehow hasn’t been exposed to dickens, it still provides some great shorthand that English speakers around the world understand: “these characters sound like they’re wealthy and educated. These characters sound like they’re working class”
This is always the reason I attributed it to. It's like watching dubbed anime and getting inexplicable Christopher Walken and Peter Lorre impressions, or characters having rural southern American accents- it's about translating cultural touchstones across cultures.
I didnt know the accent that sounded bad or sound was for poor people/it sounds like it.
@@soccerandtrack10 okay
The film Chocolat (based on the book of the same name) is also set in France... Johnny Depps character is a traveler/gypsy/nomad character...a french one... So they give him an Irish accent...😶 I assume for the reason you mentioned.
I sure wouldn't be able to tell a posh french accent from any other. Especially not one done dubiously by an entirely British cast.
It depends on what you’ve been exposed to. If you’ve consumed a decent amount of English (or sometimes American) media, then yes, you’ll have this association. But it isn’t automatic.
I’d argue that Newsies is the American contribution to this genre of musical. The New York accents are notoriously and comically thick and I really don’t think they come across as glamorous, perhaps just a little less influenced by pantomime. It’s working class, nostalgic, and it certainly has some big dance numbers as well as social commentary.
Medda’s big number feels like a direct parallel to Oom Pa Pa.
Really true and it even stars a Brit in the movie lmao
Also the movie is much more gritty and keeps with the genre more closely than the new stage adaptation
Heck, I’d say the Music Man has contributed to it as well. Rock Island, Ya Got Trouble, Pickalittle, and Shipoopi are influenced by the dialect of 1900s hucksters. Harold Hill isn’t a picture of morality, but he’s trying his best to make a living.
The Pajama Game also has some similarities, since you’ve got Racing with the Clock, Once a Year Day, There Once Was a Man, Steam Heat, and 7 1/2 Cents on top of a working class cast. They’re more glamorous, though.
I'd argue America's best answer to the cockney musical is The Cradle Will Rock. Big cast (though no specific "chorus"), working class protagonists, biting social commentary, and like Threepenny Opera and Sweeney Todd, it's in the Brechtian style. The biggest difference is that it was set in the time it was originally written and produced, so there is not veneer of nostalgia to protect the audience.
@@kellyburds2991 Isn’t nostalgia one of the stated qualifications?
I wonder why they didn't translate this to the Dutch version. In most English language musicals, RP gets translated to Algemeen Nederlands (General Dutch, what they speak on TV), but Cockney, NYC, or other working class accents turn into Jordaans, Amsterdam local speak. Bert in Mary Poppins or Eliza in My Fair Lady, for example, speak like this. African accents also often get translated into Caribbean Dutch and get an Antillian or Suriname twist to it (if appropriate). Often, even if there's regional accents they'll do smth with that (Scottish often becomes Frisian, and in American originals with specific British ppl, they'll often be Flemish). But in Les Mis they do speak more slurily or properly, but they did not apply class based accents, though they could have easily. Interesting!
Oh man how terrific would if all the Cockney characters sounded like Rotterdammers?
This is canon in the theatre of my mind now.
@@LikeTheProphet Fantine wat loop jij nou te lopen te zitten te zeggen? Dromen doe je maar thuis hè meissie, hup aan 't werk mè jou.
They did. The Thenardiers are heavily class accented.
@@ellenmarch3095 welke versie heb jij gezien? Want de Nederlandse castrecording uit 2008 heeft niet echt heftige, herkenbare accenten (Jordaans oid).
They didn't even translate this to the _Broadway_ version, really. The script was the same as the London production, Briticisms and all, but it was all sung with a pretty neutral American accent.
"...and the Beadle and Javert have the same hat" 🤣I am LOVING this! I hadn't thought about musical characters in the US being glam, but that may be a selective bias...and Newsies weren't! Anyway, LOVE this idea--thanks for pointing me to it from the clock app :)
Yeah I don't think that's a fair assessment after WWII. Before, yes, American plays were huge glamorous reviews, but that all shifted with Oklahoma in 1943. And you definitely can't say it about theater now. By some of these definitions, you could say In the Heights is a cockney musical just set in modern New York.
I must note that Oliver the novel was published in 1837 and that the June rebellion of 1832 is the big historic highlight of Les Misérables (published 1862). The time periods are almost contemporary.
I got my hands on the French concept album years before I heard the Broadway cast album or saw the show in person. I appreciate your digging into Boublil's own desire to replicate Oliver. My gripe about the English lyrics is that the music is written for the French lyrics, which does the French thing of compressing way more syllables into a beat than normally happens in English. And as much as the English lyrics try and often succeed in meeting the music at least half way, there are bits where it sounds awkward when compared to the same passage in French. Also mildly annoyed that Gavroche's English lyrics are toned down in the criticism of the system.
The French lyrics are actually not that good. And you can feel that instead of having the music written for them, it is actually the contrary, the French text is sometimes painfully adjusted to fit the songs. Which leads to unsatisfying parts such as "A la volonté du peuple", a song that is supposed to become a popular hymn during Lamarque's funeral procession, when the French text actually suggests that Enjolras sings it for his friends around a bottle of wine in the ABC café. The English version really captures the bravado of the demonstrators, the challenge that is flung in the face of the establishment, and the hope of the oppressed classes.
Thénardier's monologue "La devise du cabaretier" is likewise terribly awkward, using pedantic formulations that do not establish the real nature of Thénardier, and sound pretty ridiculous (why that reference to Switzerland?). The English text "Master of the house" is miles above.
Other parts are actually very good in French, and likewise, efficiently translated in English ("La journée est finie - Another day over", for example).
Gavroche's song is not a very good song in French, but it was considered to be the best of the lot and was released as a single that hit the charts. I peronnally think it does not fit into the ensemble, as it really feels like it has been written just of that purpose.
@@Bodhran67 Problem is there are two french versions : the one that was produced as a concept album then on stage was the very original one. When they produced the English version, they wildly made a lot of changes with the story and the songs. For example, the moving "Air de la misère" sung by Fantine (Beautifully performed by Rose Laurens) became "On my own" for Eponine. A long prologue was also added for the non-french audience less familiar with Hugo's novel. "A la volonté du peuple" was not meant to be a people song but a oath taken by the students : only the changes made it a song for public confrontation in English.
Then the English production was re-adapted in French and there came most of the lyrics issues where there was none at first.
As far as I love the original french production, (Gavroche's parts included : his song uses a lot of lyrics by Victor Hugo himself as written in the novel) I agree the second version is not as great as it could have been and I prefer the "original" English by far.
I think one major reason for the death of cockney musicals (and showtune-based musicals in general) is Hair, which essentially invented the rock musical. It also inspired Andrew Lloyd Webber’s early works and his success subsequently lent itself to set-piece-heavy pop/rock musicals.
I would argue that most musicals today aren’t comprised of show-tunes, but rather a genre of choice blended with narrative lyrics. Hadestown is folk, Six is diva pop, etc. It is a shame that the pop/rock musical has led to so many jukebox musicals. They’re not bad on principle but half of Broadway right now is jukebox and it’s exhausting.
Edit: fixed some misspellings
I agree with your assessment completely.
I was going to say that jukebox musicals killed off the cockney style musicals but your analysis is more thorough and I agree completely. Let's not forget that the Golden age of American musical theater too was very much jazz based and even those style musicals are still viable today than a cockney style.
I also agree that jukebox musicals are stale and old. But...Shucked has given me hope for more original music.
@@anaihilator I am so tired of jukebox musicals. I get why people make them, I get why people see them, but boy are they generally terrible.
seemingly all new musicals have to be adaptations/based on stories people know, or jukebox musicals (so based on music people know) (or both! looking at you Back To The Future (at least partly)) to get enough people through the doors to make their investment back
I think it's partly because jukebox musicals are easy to create. You're not writing brand new songs, you're taking Abba's greatest hits. Heck sometimes they have songs with names so you can use that to create your characters even. Then you just write a silly storyline that incorporates the songs based on their meaning, or not, who cares. And the recognition of that singer, band, genre of music, etc. will get butts in seats and ensure you're making back your investment. A new concept takes a lot of writing and rewriting and reworking and still might never catch on.
Cool info. I never thought about Les Mis from its theater roots, and once you've explained the background of the producers this reason for the accents is the strongest. But as a big fan of the novel, I would say I think Victor Hugo would like what the Brits have done. I've read that he intentionally added a lot more slang dialogue and intentionally incorrect grammar in the dialog of characters like Thenardier than any other French authors were doing at the time. Apparently it was much commented on at the time, with some people disapproving, and other people getting all excited about the dialects of the Parisian underclass, kind of like how (coincidentally) all my friends in the 90's in America learned about Cockney rhyming slang from Guy Ritchie movies. So dialect was a big part of the novel too. With only high school French to guide me I'd never pick up on the cultural context of 1800's Parisian argot. And if one was to try to stage a musical in English, and then try to have people sing English in different French accents, I don't think anyone anywhere would understand. So when they translated the French prose to English lyrics, it totally makes sense to translate the accents and dialogue along the lines of the roughly equivalent British social classes. British people will pick up on the meaning automatically, and even if Americans don't know every distinction of it, most of us are pretty aware of the general implication of Cockney vs "posh". So I always assumed that was why the musical was like that. But either way it came about, the novel is very, very much about social commentary, and the musicals translate the spirit of it pretty well.
Angela Lansbury is playing the heck out of the role of Mrs. Lovett in that scene, that's what she's doing. 🥰 Sweeney Todd is my all time favorite musical.
Not only that, she, unlike many other actors in these musicals, was a really cockney, born within hearing distance of St.Mary le Bow
That's an amazing recording of that show too. I think I rented it on Prime video.
What Angela Lansbury is doing there at about 18:30 is letting Mrs. Lovett's soul rejoice that she's not only hit upon a scheme that may finally help her out of crushing poverty, she's also looped in an accomplice who is the perfect source for fresh supplies who also happens to be the man for whom she's had a long standing desire.
Good video but found it disappointing that name Herbert Kretzmer- who only wrote pretty much all the English lyrics for Les Miserables!- got zero mention. In addition, the culture of the Jewish East End had a influence in several of the "minor key" songs in Oliver (Pick a Pocket or Two, Reviewing the Situation, That's Your Funeral, Be Back Soon) and that also influenced songs like Master of the House.
Is "Hello Dolly" a cockney musical set in the US? You mention that "newsies" is different, but I think it fits the bill pretty well too, especially the musical (not movie) version. I think "working-class musicals with a 19th century setting" would a bit more accurate.
Do we include Oklahoma?
I would totally include Oklahoma
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I love that you used Feuilly as an example of characters! He’s one of my absolute favourites, but he’s not usually who you first think of when you talk about Les Mis.
I LOVE that too. He's one of those second-tier Amis who are most often forgotten.
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang springs to mind too even though there are no proper Cockneys in the film/musical… they do have a great chorus number, ‘Toot Sweet’. I wonder what sort of accent Caractucus Potts would have if he wasn’t played by Dick van Dyke. I guess he’d be on he RP side of things… being that Jeremy and Jemima had posh accents and he ends up with Truly Scrumptious. Though, “Grandpa” (surely, Grandad??) was more Cockney…
For an American equivalent, working-class London is like working-class Brooklyn. Think Bugs Bunny, or "Eyyy, I'm walkin' 'ere!" Cockney is more akin to South Boston. Which I don't feel comfortable writing out on youtube bc they might ban me, because the sound and lack of rhyming slang may be different, but they both do love their four-letter words starting with c and f, and manage to make entire sentences out of variations on those two words in traffic, or at least those are the only two words the non-native object of their ire would understand.
This was explained very well, and yes, in london we like to use swear words like scrabble pieces to make as many different phrases as possible
Local idioms are often so obscure for non-natives that they are difficult to clearly identify and tell apart from others. Idiomatic english is exactly like Walloon (a dialect spoken in the French speaking South of Belgium). Walloon has many regional variants and huge pronunciation and vocabulary differences, but a non-Walloon speaker will not be able to tell them apart, and most of the time it is the swear words (which we are very partial to ;-) ) that stick out like sore thumbs.
Excellent observation, but for the sake of accuracy, Bugs Bunny had a “New Joisey” accent rather than a New York accent. Mel Blanc himself confirmed this.
It’s interesting working at a retirement village because a lot of activities are focused on nostalgia for the residents and a lot of the songs they play during these activities are from cockney musicals (there’s a lot from Oliver)
Mind blown about Les Mis. I say that having worked on the show as a lighting tech on an off since the 90's and lost count of how many times I've seen it (the10th year cast of casts is still the best ever) I never knew about its relationship with Oliver!
Definitely never would have guessed that connection!
As an America, I grew up believing Oliver was a cat until I joined the theater in high school. Now I freaking love all those songs, I don't even care if they get stuck in my head years later
Haha, I'm British and I might be the only person in the UK who remembers Disney's Oliver and Company. I had sticker book of it. Hadn't thought about it in a while but Street Savoire Faire is gonna be playing in my head for a few days now I bet!
@@TP111111 These are streets of gold! 🎶
Great video! That smash edit to Phantom of the Opera @ 27:12 had me laughing out loud.
This is fantastic! The clarity and sheer delivery in how you present the information, how you balance the scope with thoroughness; you go into such precise detail without it feeling like an academic essay. Even your audio/video editing is top notch. Kicking myself to have moved out of London before discovering your tours!
I agree! So so talented.... Following from Denmark, should I be revisiting, a tour around London with this funny lady would be top priority, for sure.
the Gene Wilder version of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is a cockney musical
Loved this! I had just showed my partner Les Mis and he asked why they have london accents if it’s set in france, and my answer was nowhere near this thorough. Thank you!!!
I've always contextualized it as "native France French speakers have an accent (compared to Quebec, etc), so when translated into English, and taking place in England, the characters should have English accents.
Seeing Angela Lansbury dance that weird little jig seriously made my day.
She's everything
Dearest Jenny, I found your channel one day last week and have fallen down a rabbit hole of your content for the past 2 hours. I love it! I am learning so much and adore your content. Thank you ❤ ~ Rose
I miss your full length videos!! 😭😭 I enjoy the shorts too but you're so interesting! I legit don't even like musicals but I LOVE history! So Im fascinated this whole videos!
Oh my god... I never knew Les Mis was inspired so divinely by Oliver Twist. 🥰😍