Thanks for all the support. We are just a team of 3, two Hmong and one non-Hmong with full-time jobs. We just wanted to make fun and educational videos for those that want to learn Hmong History at a deeper level. Although we've moved on to our careers, we felt we could dig back into our hobbies of art and Southeast Asian History, especially as the Hmong 50 Years Anniversary of coming to America is this year, 2025. One of us has worked for another Channel as a writer (actually paid), and we were less than thrilled to see some of the comments. Do we really need a ph.d to do a "youtube video" (though one of us does have a Ph.D . and another is working towards one)? For all the other "youtube" channels like HistoryMarche, The Rest is History, Epic History, and Kings and General, when talking about their history, there is not even a peep about sources or credentials (from our resident writer). But we get it, Hmong History is not well documented and it is sometime scary to learn new things, so just ask nicely, and we'll make extra efforts in our future videos and blogs to cite and give credentials (as long as it doesn't ruin the flow of our videos). Or you can write to us directly in our email, no need for profanity, seriously. Also, it is OUR own decision for the flow and aesthetics of our videos that we decided to not barrage viewers with page citations and allocations of timestamps, and NOT the fault of HMONG historians and scholars out there working hard on their craft. As one of the Hmong elders we interviewed said, "when a people has been treated unworthy for long enough, they start to accept that as fact", and we see too many comments here and elsewhere of Hmong folks tearing down other Hmong folks. And, here we take that seriously, even though this is a fun and friendly channel. We ask for basic respect for folks in our channel community. We are proud of the long beautiful Hmong History that has gone unknown for too long, and the names that will forever be lost to history if somebody don't start to say their names. For the sources, we appreciated every single one of them, but they too have their flaws. There are cultural and language barriers from our non-Hmong sources, and there are obvious biases that are gleamed from each of them and who they got their sources from. Some favor one side or another as Hmong History, like any other History, was one not without conflict. We caution and advise for the best judgment among interested readers and respect all opinions. Sources: Jane Hamilton-Merritt, Tragic Mountains: The Hmong, the Americans, and the Secret War for Laos, 1942-1992 (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1993). Mai Na Lee, "Dreams of the Hmong Kingdom: The Quest for Legitimation in French Indochina, 1850-1960) (The University of Wisconsin Press, 2015). Mai Na Lee, "The Women of Dragon Capital (Long Cheng: Marriage Alliances and the Rise of Vang Pao," in Claiming Place: Hmong Women, Power, and Knowledge Production, ed. Chia Vang, Faith Nibbs, and Ma Vang (Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, forthcoming). Jean Larteguy and Yang Dao, La Fabuleuse Aventure du Peuple de l'Opium (Paris: Presses de la Cite, 1979). Geoffrey C. Gunn, Rebellion in Laos: Peasants and Politics in a Colonial Backwater (Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1990). Christian Culas, Le Messianism Hmong aux XIXe et XXe Siecles: La Dynamique Religieuse comme Instrument Politique (Paris: Editions du Centre National de le Recherche Scientifique, 2005). F.M. Savina, Histoire des Miao (Hong Kong: Imprimerie de la Societe des Missions-Etrangeres, 1924). Yuepheng Xiong, Taug Txoj Lw Ntshav: Keeb Kwm Hmoob Nyob Suav Teb (Saint Paul, MN: Hmong ABC, 2000). Yves Bertrais [Txiv Plig Nyiav Pov], Haiv Hmoob Liv Xwm [Hmong History] (Quezon City, Philippines: Patrimonie Culturel Hmong, 1997). Nicolas Tapp, Sovereignty and Rebellion: The White Hmong of Northern Thailand (Singapore: Oxford University Press, 1989). Touxa Lyfoung, Tub Npis Lisfoom Tej Lus Tseg Cia (Minneapolis, MN: Burgess Publishing, 1996). William R. Geddes, Migrants of the Mountains: The Cultural Ecology of the Blue Miao (Hmong Njua) of Thailand (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1976). Michael Adas, Prophets of Rebellion: Millenarian Protest Movements against the European Colonial Order (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1979). James C. Scott, The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2009). Long Yu-xiao, "The Origin of the Hmong in China," talk given at Concordia University, Saint Paul, Minnesota, December 18, 2009. (Our team member Niles attended). Yang Dao, Hmong at the Turning Point, ed. Jeanne L. Blake (Minneapolis: WorldBridge Associates, 1993). Kao-Ly Yang, "Problems in the Interpretation of Hmong Clan Surnames," in Hmong/Miao in Asia, ed. Nicholas Tapp, Jean Michaud, Christian Culas, and Gary Yia Lee (Chiangmai, Thailand: Silkworm Books, 2004). Nicolas Tapp, The Hmong of China: Context, Agency, and the Imaginary (Leiden: Brill, 2001). Jennifer Took, A Native Chieftaincy in Southwest China: Franchising a Tai Chieftaincy under the Tusi System of Late Imperial China (Leiden: Brill, 2005). Philippe Le Failler, "The Deo Family of Lai Chau: Traditional Power and Unconventional Practices," Journal of Vietnamese Studies 6, no. 2 (Summer 2011). A Culture in Search of Survival: The Phuan of Thailand and Laos (New Haven, CT: Council on Southeast Asia Studies, Yale University, 1988). Grant Evans, The Last Century of Lao Royalty: A Documentary History (Chiangmai, Thailand: Silkworm Books, 2009). Geoffrey G. Gunn, "Shamans and Rebels: The Batchai (Meo) Rebellion of Northern Laos and North-West Vietnam (1918-1921)," Journal of Siam Society 74 (1986). Keith Quincy, Hmong: History of a People, 2nd ed. (Cheney: Eastern Washington University, 1995). Alfred W. McCoy, Cathleen B. Read, and Leonard P. Adams, The Politics of Heroin (New York: Harper and Row, 1972), 80. Also: Interviews with members of various Hmong family elders.
Very excellent piece of history on the origin of these leadership titles. Very informative. I wish I had this information when I wrote my dissertation in 1998. Back then, history on the Hmong was limited. Continue to do more research and produce more of videos like this one. Well done!
Wow, what an unexpected video so near to home. Hmong people are never shown in our history books, few knew about their history. Keep making these interesting videos! Love from Thailand
The reason why Hmong was not in your History books because you people deleted our Hmong name in your history books but in Hmong history books said that Hmong was in Xieng Khouang since Hmong came from China , Xieng Khounag was Hmong territory
, Appreciated Great Film....Thank you, Yes, this was seen in history Bailan's history....My grand father was originally escaped from Sipsong_Phanna in late 1893.. LPB was a French Protectorated (Not colony)....
These three are a MUST read for any serious Hmong history enthusiast. 1. William R. Geddes, Migrants of the Mountains: The Cultural Ecology of the Blue Miao (Hmong Njua) of Thailand (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1976). 2. Kao-Ly Yang, "Problems in the Interpretation of Hmong Clan Surnames," in Hmong/Miao in Asia, ed. Nicholas Tapp, Jean Michaud, Christian Culas, and Gary Yia Lee (Chiangmai, Thailand: Silkworm Books, 2004). 3. Nicolas Tapp, The Hmong of China: Context, Agency, and the Imaginary (Leiden: Brill, 2001). I only mention this book because of its politically charged and antagonistic perspective and the turmoil at the time. Some of the narrative I found to be very offensive and narrowminded. You can draw your own conclusion. Yang Dao, Hmong at the Turning Point, ed. Jeanne L. Blake (Minneapolis: WorldBridge Associates, 1993).
Dreams of the Hmong Kingdom by Dr. Mai Na Lee would be our recommendation for getting started, it's well researched and also in collaboration with some of the best editors in Southeast Asian Studies like Alfred W. McCoy. The rest of our research is in our pinned comment.
@@TigerBite-SizedHistory-ds8kb A W McCoy bias and limited research is controversial in the academic community. Dr. Mai Na Lee is only one of many researchers where Hmong history can be drawn from. These titles were mainly used in SE Asia with the advent of the Lor and Lee clan but the political titles and designations actually originated from China. This is where Dr Lee's research is lacking. Truth be told as asserted by other well known researchers such as Lamond, Betrais, Geddes, Tapp, Hamilton-Merrit, G Yang, and others including Miao scholars the political titles were nothing but a means to subjugate the Hmong/Miao under Hmong/Miao pretense. These individuals were no better than puppets which I do not care to detail. Anyone truly interested in facts versus fiction can do their own research.
@@aliasdoe007 Great discussion - but the point of the video is that the title was not just limited to Lee and Lor clans, but many different clans had the title too. And there are Hmong chieftains in China who did not have that title, and Tai chieftains in North Vietnam with that title. It is true, the Lys of Kaitong Ly Nhiavu told Tapp that they brought it from China, but Mai Na Lee sheds light to this point -- that their ancestor in China was indeed a chief. However, she points out, he was akin to a Tusi chief instead, whom the Chinese Imperial government tried to replace with an ethnic Han, leading to their war with the Chinese. This resulted in the exodus of the 5 Ly brothers (the soon to be Kaitong Ly Nhiavue included) out of China into the Nong Het Region - where they received the Kaitong title from the Muong Phuan King, in a ceremony where they offered a rhinoceros horn. All this is important to learn as we believe, the more you know, the better it is for our understanding of ourselves and our history, even if we like it or not.
@@TigerBite-SizedHistory-ds8kb The story about the rhino horn is exclusively rooted in SE Asia. It never originated nor is it an aftermath or event stemming from China. That is most likely a Lee tale to try and legitimize whatever aspirations and claim to nobility they conceptualized to try and impose their rule or dominance over the general Hmong populous as if they were ordained. This is a very common theme (tale) among dominant Hmong clans -- Lee, Lor, Yang, Xiong, Vue and Vang etc.) People tend to neglect this inherent Hmong mindset of self-glorification. And from many first hand accounts and testimonies of that time period the rhino horn presentation was the Lee's last ditch effort to bribe the Muong Phuan King to give them that title to in essence legitimize them to subjugate the Hmong in their province. Again it never originated from China. It did not work and the title was dissolved or redesignated with GVP's ascension. I do not recall the details. I wish I had recorded all those interviews back then but I was too young naive carefree and passive to know any better nor their relevancy today. Fyi - I raised similar disparities with Dr Lee many years ago. After several exchange I questioned her research, don't forget her research is fairly recent meaning when all accounts and testimonies who would have some insight had passed away, she refused to have and continue any more discussions with me. I was disappointed but not surprise. As a researcher anyone who is genuinely interested in facts versus fiction should always keep an open mind. This is why I try to gather as much information from as many resources as possible versus limited or time specific pieces.
Hi, could you list the sources you used to make this video? Really interesting stuff, but I just wanted to point out as a Vietnamese speaker that "kaitong" does not mean "little king" so I'm super curious to see what the original word was to help fact check. :)
As far as the sources provide, we have four contenders, one: the Ly's of Kaitong Ly Nhiavue shared with author Nicolas Tapp that they brought it from China (so Chinese?); second: Hmong government officials from the earliest times like Touby Lyoung and Tougeu Lyfoung (childhood friends of Muong Phuan Royal Family) said it came from Vietnamese influences (Vietnam); third: There were Highland Tai in North Vietnam (Sipsong Chu Tai) that also had similar titles, but don't know if Lao/Thai kings gave to them or Vietnamese kings gave to them (Lao/Thai?); In interview with member of Chao Sai Kham (Muong Phuan Prince) descendants, they say it was from Vietnam (so Vietnam). Dr. Mai Na Lee stated that it is probably an archaic Vietnamese title comparable to English Duke (which came from Latin and other languages), which meant "Little King", but little with meaning closer to 'petty', not exactly 'small'.
Very informative and educational video. I applaud you guy's effort in making this short history of the governance of the Hmong people back in Laos. Another good source book I've read long times ago is a book by Keith Quincy. His book is titled "Hmong: History of a people". On a different subject matter, would you guys be able to verify or disprove that General Vang Pao has Moob leeg ancestry? This is a touchy subject matter to some Hmong folks but facts are facts and some of us really like to know and understand the truth. Can you guys dig into this question and let the truth spill out please.
Quincy's book "Hmong: History of a people" is nothing more than abridged versions of other researchers' work. His other book "Harvesting Pa Chay's Wheat: The Hmong and America's Secret War in Laos" is a better read. I have both books and have read them among many other scholars' work over the past decade when I was heavily researching Hmong history. I likely did enough work to warrant a degree - Masters at minimum 🤣 On that note I would highly recommend Yves Bertrais (known as Txiv Plig Nyiaj Pov Yaj who arguably is the most endowed when it comes to Hmong SE Asia), Jacque Lamond, N Tapp, W Geddes, G Yang, J Hamilton-Merrit etc if you truly want to fully understand Hmong history -- from Chinese antiquities to present. These focused or time specific research is only a fraction of the entirety. And this is where and what causes a lot of people to have various opinions and bias mainly due to their limited or focused research and information. I would not recommend that approach so your knowledge and information is more well rounded. So to answer your question about GVP please note that there has always been an inherent polarity between Moob Leeg and Hmoob Dawb. On top of that there has always been to this day an inherent egotistical mindset among Moob Leeg and Hmoob Dawb and among every clan especially within the dominant ones such as the Lee, Lor, Yang, and Vang. Bottom line what most have said fact or fiction about GVP falls into one of these categories: pride, jealousy, antagonism, misinformation, and tales. Pick your poison. That said I have personally met GVP on several occasion and he has never once talked about his ancestry. He has always said, "He is Hmong." Hmong regardless of whether one is Green or White seriously needs to quit segregating its people in these meaningless unprogressive irrelevant and pointless technicalities. It is just my opinion but throughout my research one thing that I noticed is that most Moob Leeg tend to always be the "naysayers". Interpret that however you want. And draw your own conclusions from your own research. Good luck!
@@aliasdoe007 I applaud you for your lengthy response. However, I must respectfully disagree with some of your opinions and supposedly observations in regards to Moob Leeg being the “naysayers”. I would say the opposite is true from my own personal experience. I’ve watched Gary Vue and the Hmong ABC store owner’s research into Hmong history and both are very bias against Moob Leeg. More recently Dao Thao and some of his supporters showed immerse prejudice against Moob Leeg dialect. In this respect, I cannot agree with your opinion that Moob Leeg as a whole are more prone to being “naysayers “. The research of Gary Vue and Hmong ABC owner was to validate their assumptions whether the original dialect of the Hmong in China was the White dialect or not. Their conclusion was that it was. Not to get into any unproductive arguments but to assert an intellectual debate to this subject is both interesting and educational. One fact I’ve learned from my readings of those books mentioned above is that the White dialect derived from the fact that the Whites are cooked or assimilated into the Han Chinese society. Their conclusion green dialect on the other hand are uncooked or wild, thus cannot be assimilated. In this regard, my personal opinion is that the green dialect is the more original of the two spoken dialects.
@@tonycaine5930 I will be the first to admit that whatever Gary Vue, Dao Thao, and Chue Pheng Xiong (Hmong ABC owner) has to offer in spite of whatever research they did or did not do I always took it with a grant of salt because I can do my own research and draw my own conclusions. Chue Pheng Xiong specifically truth be told was primarily spoon fed by Miao scholars during a Miao/Hmong symposium in the late 90s early 2000s. His research or lack of arguably is mostly hearsay or what he was spoon fed. I seriously doubt he researched any of the material he incessantly rants about. Why? Because I not only researched Hmong history but Miao history for many years and to my knowledge there literally is no English translated books regarding Miao history to be found practically nonexistent. So unless Chue Pheng can read and comprehend traditional Chinese not Pinyin then there is absolutely no way he would know anything factual about Miao history. Even accomplished Chinese and Miao scholars have to intimately study traditional Chinese before they can read translate and accurately interpret Chinese Antiquities - that is Chinese history pre Mao Zedong/Chinese Counter Revolution. That said as I had mentioned everyone is entitled to their own opinion and conclusions -- hopefully based on some scholarships. It is a fact that when it comes to Moob Leeg and Hmoob Dawb it has always been a very sensitive (prideful) and even heated debate. Without mentioning names there are historical incidents from which I had based my opinion on and about Moob Leeg being 'naysayers' like you did with your examples. Not only that but a more recent Moob Leeg intervention is the 'honorary stone marker' at the St Paul capitol. That ordeal was spearheaded by Moob Leeg from what has been reported in the media. As for the dialect debate I did my own research and have drawn my own conclusion. You may want to read Nicolas Tapp, The Hmong of China: Context, Agency, and the Imaginary (Leiden: Brill, 2001) as it does touch on the "raw" and "cooked" perspective. So if the White dialect is "cooked" and the Green dialect is "raw" then shouldn't the Hmong/Miao who historically and currently live throughout China primarily speak the White dialect -- a dialect that they apparently have little to no knowledge about nor can speak fluently. Yet ask any fluent Hmoob Dawb and Moob Leeg and they will tell you the Hmong/Miao throughout China speaks a dialect very similar to the Green dialect not only in pronunciation but words and word meaning as well. Additionally Moob Leeg can more easily understand and know between 50-70% of the Hmong/Miao dialect whereas Hmoob Dawb struggles to not only understand but knows less than 30-40% of the Hmong/Miao dialect. What dialect then is "raw" or "cooked" in this regard?
@@aliasdoe007 What's weird is there are White dialect speaking clan groups today that have made the switch from White to Green way back in the days in Laos. There are some Moua and Khang clans that did this. For what reason? Not sure.
Please! We all have heard this or that. No one has facts period. My great great grandfather is supposedly from royalty - the Ming dynasty as a matter of fact. All fairy tales. Hmong people, specifically those of the West and SE Asia, whether they want to believe it or not were nothing more than subjugated peasants throughout history. The Lor and Lee clan of SE Asia were nothing more than political puppets at the heels of their Chinese, Viet, French, and Lao overlords. That is fact! It is a shame many as in ALL elders who has and had firsthand accounts and knowledge of Hmong SE Asia are all gone. They all will tell you emphatically that before GVP's ascension during the Lor and Lee era as Hmong dignitaries the Hmong people were no better than a dog -- beaten killed and discriminated against without prejudice.
During the Kaitong Rebellion of 1893, the Moua Kaitong or Kiabtoom was the lead negotiator for the Hmong forces with the French at Cha Pha Ngoi (don't know if it was the battle site or the mountain the Hmong were fortified above). He was youngest and most linguistically fluent out of all the 3 Kaitongs that led their troops to attack the French at Ban Ban. He was chosen as the Hmong representative for all the Hmong in the Nong Het Region until he passed it on to Kaitong Lo Bliayao when the French came and demanded Hmong corvee labor and scouts for the construction of Colonial Route 7 (He relinquished his role as he was already an old man by this time). We didn't give a name because different sources gave different names, so we did not want to offend or incorrectly name someone's ancestor and his contributions to Hmong History.
@@TigerBite-SizedHistory-ds8kb These stories are nothing but fairy tales because you said it yourself you do not have or can name actual individuals to provide any proof -- preferably well known and recognized ones by the Hmong populous not just family or clan-centric based created ones real or fictional. Without names or facts they are nothing more than tall tales derived by family and clan purely for self glorification. And a name plus its title is a Hmong person's or its people's biggest brightest and most coveted claim and proclamation to any esteemed perceived notion of grandeur leadership or nobility. Perfect examples besides General VP are over a dozen Colonels and presently easily over 100 plus Pha Thas that is President of this and that mumbo-jumbo Hmong wanna be organization. Point is the only universally known names titles and leaders in Hmong history specifically and rooted solely in Laos because that is what is most well known accepted and acknowledged by most if not all Hmong is just Lauj Kiab Toom (Lor Kia Tong) then Tub Npis Lis Foom (Touby Lee Fong) concluding with General VP. Any Hmong leader or political dignitary outside of Laos and of that time period is purely conjecture whether that is in Vietnam, Burma, Thailand or China. And quite honestly no one Hmong person at any or all levels of society during and at that time I have ever spoken with and interviewed has ever said or known any other Hmong leaders other than the three mentioned. Any and all new revelation if minutely factual whatsoever are late 20th to early 21st century Hmong Western constructs and recreation by said Hmong clan and family enthusiast. Again trying to legitimize their name or whatever title they had perceived conception of and about. This is a reminder of the tale of which there is absolutely no proof whatsoever in suggesting that Dr Yang Dao was nobility since his father was a Hmong King in Northern Vietnam. Well the sad irony is that the more popular better known and first hand accounts and testimony is that Dr Yang Dao is in fact a non-Hmong orphan of warfare adopted and raised by a Hmong -- Xaiv Nus Yaj pretty sure that's the man's name. Bottom line fact checking can be cumbersome when it comes to Hmong history but let us not open the flood gates to tales hearsay and conjecture to rewrite its already murky history.
@@kalords5967 🤣👍 -- have had the displeasure of meeting and speaking with supposedly Hmong PhD recipients and was utterly dumbfounded with a bad taste in my mouth. As for Hmong history specifically they are probably just as clueless as their non-Hmong neighbor.
Thanks for all the support. We are just a team of 3, two Hmong and one non-Hmong with full-time jobs. We just wanted to make fun and educational videos for those that want to learn Hmong History at a deeper level. Although we've moved on to our careers, we felt we could dig back into our hobbies of art and Southeast Asian History, especially as the Hmong 50 Years Anniversary of coming to America is this year, 2025.
One of us has worked for another Channel as a writer (actually paid), and we were less than thrilled to see some of the comments. Do we really need a ph.d to do a "youtube video" (though one of us does have a Ph.D . and another is working towards one)? For all the other "youtube" channels like HistoryMarche, The Rest is History, Epic History, and Kings and General, when talking about their history, there is not even a peep about sources or credentials (from our resident writer). But we get it, Hmong History is not well documented and it is sometime scary to learn new things, so just ask nicely, and we'll make extra efforts in our future videos and blogs to cite and give credentials (as long as it doesn't ruin the flow of our videos). Or you can write to us directly in our email, no need for profanity, seriously. Also, it is OUR own decision for the flow and aesthetics of our videos that we decided to not barrage viewers with page citations and allocations of timestamps, and NOT the fault of HMONG historians and scholars out there working hard on their craft.
As one of the Hmong elders we interviewed said, "when a people has been treated unworthy for long enough, they start to accept that as fact", and we see too many comments here and elsewhere of Hmong folks tearing down other Hmong folks. And, here we take that seriously, even though this is a fun and friendly channel. We ask for basic respect for folks in our channel community. We are proud of the long beautiful Hmong History that has gone unknown for too long, and the names that will forever be lost to history if somebody don't start to say their names.
For the sources, we appreciated every single one of them, but they too have their flaws. There are cultural and language barriers from our non-Hmong sources, and there are obvious biases that are gleamed from each of them and who they got their sources from. Some favor one side or another as Hmong History, like any other History, was one not without conflict. We caution and advise for the best judgment among interested readers and respect all opinions.
Sources:
Jane Hamilton-Merritt, Tragic Mountains: The Hmong, the Americans, and the Secret War for Laos, 1942-1992 (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1993).
Mai Na Lee, "Dreams of the Hmong Kingdom: The Quest for Legitimation in French Indochina, 1850-1960) (The University of Wisconsin Press, 2015).
Mai Na Lee, "The Women of Dragon Capital (Long Cheng: Marriage Alliances and the Rise of Vang Pao," in Claiming Place: Hmong Women, Power, and Knowledge Production, ed. Chia Vang, Faith Nibbs, and Ma Vang (Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, forthcoming).
Jean Larteguy and Yang Dao, La Fabuleuse Aventure du Peuple de l'Opium (Paris: Presses de la Cite, 1979).
Geoffrey C. Gunn, Rebellion in Laos: Peasants and Politics in a Colonial Backwater (Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1990).
Christian Culas, Le Messianism Hmong aux XIXe et XXe Siecles: La Dynamique Religieuse comme Instrument Politique (Paris: Editions du Centre National de le Recherche Scientifique, 2005).
F.M. Savina, Histoire des Miao (Hong Kong: Imprimerie de la Societe des Missions-Etrangeres, 1924).
Yuepheng Xiong, Taug Txoj Lw Ntshav: Keeb Kwm Hmoob Nyob Suav Teb (Saint Paul, MN: Hmong ABC, 2000).
Yves Bertrais [Txiv Plig Nyiav Pov], Haiv Hmoob Liv Xwm [Hmong History] (Quezon City, Philippines: Patrimonie Culturel Hmong, 1997).
Nicolas Tapp, Sovereignty and Rebellion: The White Hmong of Northern Thailand (Singapore: Oxford University Press, 1989).
Touxa Lyfoung, Tub Npis Lisfoom Tej Lus Tseg Cia (Minneapolis, MN: Burgess Publishing, 1996).
William R. Geddes, Migrants of the Mountains: The Cultural Ecology of the Blue Miao (Hmong Njua) of Thailand (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1976).
Michael Adas, Prophets of Rebellion: Millenarian Protest Movements against the European Colonial Order (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1979).
James C. Scott, The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2009).
Long Yu-xiao, "The Origin of the Hmong in China," talk given at Concordia University, Saint Paul, Minnesota, December 18, 2009. (Our team member Niles attended).
Yang Dao, Hmong at the Turning Point, ed. Jeanne L. Blake (Minneapolis: WorldBridge Associates, 1993).
Kao-Ly Yang, "Problems in the Interpretation of Hmong Clan Surnames," in Hmong/Miao in Asia, ed. Nicholas Tapp, Jean Michaud, Christian Culas, and Gary Yia Lee (Chiangmai, Thailand: Silkworm Books, 2004).
Nicolas Tapp, The Hmong of China: Context, Agency, and the Imaginary (Leiden: Brill, 2001).
Jennifer Took, A Native Chieftaincy in Southwest China: Franchising a Tai Chieftaincy under the Tusi System of Late Imperial China (Leiden: Brill, 2005).
Philippe Le Failler, "The Deo Family of Lai Chau: Traditional Power and Unconventional Practices," Journal of Vietnamese Studies 6, no. 2 (Summer 2011).
A Culture in Search of Survival: The Phuan of Thailand and Laos (New Haven, CT: Council on Southeast Asia Studies, Yale University, 1988).
Grant Evans, The Last Century of Lao Royalty: A Documentary History (Chiangmai, Thailand: Silkworm Books, 2009).
Geoffrey G. Gunn, "Shamans and Rebels: The Batchai (Meo) Rebellion of Northern Laos and North-West Vietnam (1918-1921)," Journal of Siam Society 74 (1986).
Keith Quincy, Hmong: History of a People, 2nd ed. (Cheney: Eastern Washington University, 1995).
Alfred W. McCoy, Cathleen B. Read, and Leonard P. Adams, The Politics of Heroin (New York: Harper and Row, 1972), 80.
Also:
Interviews with members of various Hmong family elders.
Very informative... keeping our history alive is very important.
Very excellent piece of history on the origin of these leadership titles. Very informative. I wish I had this information when I wrote my dissertation in 1998. Back then, history on the Hmong was limited. Continue to do more research and produce more of videos like this one. Well done!
Wow, what an unexpected video so near to home. Hmong people are never shown in our history books, few knew about their history. Keep making these interesting videos!
Love from Thailand
The reason why Hmong was not in your History books because you people deleted our Hmong name in your history books but in Hmong history books said that Hmong was in Xieng Khouang since Hmong came from China , Xieng Khounag was Hmong territory
@ Well I wouldn’t say we deleted Hmong people from history books. We don’t have anything against Hmong people in particular…
This is great! Thanks!
You have a great understanding of the history, politics of the areas where the hmong settled in XK, Laos.
How do you know that?
, Appreciated Great Film....Thank you, Yes, this was seen in history Bailan's history....My grand father was originally escaped from Sipsong_Phanna in late 1893..
LPB was a French Protectorated (Not colony)....
Awesome stuff! Love the animation and well articulated message. Subscribed!
I appreciate this HX lesson brother.
Good to see another brother of culture
Wonderfully details!!!
These three are a MUST read for any serious Hmong history enthusiast.
1. William R. Geddes, Migrants of the Mountains: The Cultural Ecology of the Blue Miao (Hmong Njua) of Thailand (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1976).
2. Kao-Ly Yang, "Problems in the Interpretation of Hmong Clan Surnames," in Hmong/Miao in Asia, ed. Nicholas Tapp, Jean Michaud, Christian Culas, and Gary Yia Lee (Chiangmai, Thailand: Silkworm Books, 2004).
3. Nicolas Tapp, The Hmong of China: Context, Agency, and the Imaginary (Leiden: Brill, 2001).
I only mention this book because of its politically charged and antagonistic perspective and the turmoil at the time. Some of the narrative I found to be very offensive and narrowminded. You can draw your own conclusion.
Yang Dao, Hmong at the Turning Point, ed. Jeanne L. Blake (Minneapolis: WorldBridge Associates, 1993).
Interesting video but What are your sources 🤔?
Dreams of the Hmong Kingdom by Dr. Mai Na Lee would be our recommendation for getting started, it's well researched and also in collaboration with some of the best editors in Southeast Asian Studies like Alfred W. McCoy. The rest of our research is in our pinned comment.
@@TigerBite-SizedHistory-ds8kb A W McCoy bias and limited research is controversial in the academic community. Dr. Mai Na Lee is only one of many researchers where Hmong history can be drawn from. These titles were mainly used in SE Asia with the advent of the Lor and Lee clan but the political titles and designations actually originated from China. This is where Dr Lee's research is lacking.
Truth be told as asserted by other well known researchers such as Lamond, Betrais, Geddes, Tapp, Hamilton-Merrit, G Yang, and others including Miao scholars the political titles were nothing but a means to subjugate the Hmong/Miao under Hmong/Miao pretense. These individuals were no better than puppets which I do not care to detail. Anyone truly interested in facts versus fiction can do their own research.
@@aliasdoe007 Great discussion - but the point of the video is that the title was not just limited to Lee and Lor clans, but many different clans had the title too. And there are Hmong chieftains in China who did not have that title, and Tai chieftains in North Vietnam with that title. It is true, the Lys of Kaitong Ly Nhiavu told Tapp that they brought it from China, but Mai Na Lee sheds light to this point -- that their ancestor in China was indeed a chief. However, she points out, he was akin to a Tusi chief instead, whom the Chinese Imperial government tried to replace with an ethnic Han, leading to their war with the Chinese. This resulted in the exodus of the 5 Ly brothers (the soon to be Kaitong Ly Nhiavue included) out of China into the Nong Het Region - where they received the Kaitong title from the Muong Phuan King, in a ceremony where they offered a rhinoceros horn. All this is important to learn as we believe, the more you know, the better it is for our understanding of ourselves and our history, even if we like it or not.
@@TigerBite-SizedHistory-ds8kb The story about the rhino horn is exclusively rooted in SE Asia. It never originated nor is it an aftermath or event stemming from China. That is most likely a Lee tale to try and legitimize whatever aspirations and claim to nobility they conceptualized to try and impose their rule or dominance over the general Hmong populous as if they were ordained. This is a very common theme (tale) among dominant Hmong clans -- Lee, Lor, Yang, Xiong, Vue and Vang etc.) People tend to neglect this inherent Hmong mindset of self-glorification.
And from many first hand accounts and testimonies of that time period the rhino horn presentation was the Lee's last ditch effort to bribe the Muong Phuan King to give them that title to in essence legitimize them to subjugate the Hmong in their province. Again it never originated from China. It did not work and the title was dissolved or redesignated with GVP's ascension. I do not recall the details. I wish I had recorded all those interviews back then but I was too young naive carefree and passive to know any better nor their relevancy today.
Fyi - I raised similar disparities with Dr Lee many years ago. After several exchange I questioned her research, don't forget her research is fairly recent meaning when all accounts and testimonies who would have some insight had passed away, she refused to have and continue any more discussions with me. I was disappointed but not surprise. As a researcher anyone who is genuinely interested in facts versus fiction should always keep an open mind. This is why I try to gather as much information from as many resources as possible versus limited or time specific pieces.
Hi, could you list the sources you used to make this video? Really interesting stuff, but I just wanted to point out as a Vietnamese speaker that "kaitong" does not mean "little king" so I'm super curious to see what the original word was to help fact check. :)
I'm hmong and i wish these hmong historians cite their damn sources too!
As far as the sources provide, we have four contenders, one: the Ly's of Kaitong Ly Nhiavue shared with author Nicolas Tapp that they brought it from China (so Chinese?); second: Hmong government officials from the earliest times like Touby Lyoung and Tougeu Lyfoung (childhood friends of Muong Phuan Royal Family) said it came from Vietnamese influences (Vietnam); third: There were Highland Tai in North Vietnam (Sipsong Chu Tai) that also had similar titles, but don't know if Lao/Thai kings gave to them or Vietnamese kings gave to them (Lao/Thai?); In interview with member of Chao Sai Kham (Muong Phuan Prince) descendants, they say it was from Vietnam (so Vietnam). Dr. Mai Na Lee stated that it is probably an archaic Vietnamese title comparable to English Duke (which came from Latin and other languages), which meant "Little King", but little with meaning closer to 'petty', not exactly 'small'.
just subscribe to your channel. you got my 100% support.
Very informative and educational video. I applaud you guy's effort in making this short history of the governance of the Hmong people back in Laos. Another good source book I've read long times ago is a book by Keith Quincy. His book is titled "Hmong: History of a people". On a different subject matter, would you guys be able to verify or disprove that General Vang Pao has Moob leeg ancestry? This is a touchy subject matter to some Hmong folks but facts are facts and some of us really like to know and understand the truth. Can you guys dig into this question and let the truth spill out please.
Quincy's book "Hmong: History of a people" is nothing more than abridged versions of other researchers' work. His other book "Harvesting Pa Chay's Wheat: The Hmong and America's Secret War in Laos" is a better read. I have both books and have read them among many other scholars' work over the past decade when I was heavily researching Hmong history. I likely did enough work to warrant a degree - Masters at minimum 🤣 On that note I would highly recommend Yves Bertrais (known as Txiv Plig Nyiaj Pov Yaj who arguably is the most endowed when it comes to Hmong SE Asia), Jacque Lamond, N Tapp, W Geddes, G Yang, J Hamilton-Merrit etc if you truly want to fully understand Hmong history -- from Chinese antiquities to present.
These focused or time specific research is only a fraction of the entirety. And this is where and what causes a lot of people to have various opinions and bias mainly due to their limited or focused research and information. I would not recommend that approach so your knowledge and information is more well rounded. So to answer your question about GVP please note that there has always been an inherent polarity between Moob Leeg and Hmoob Dawb. On top of that there has always been to this day an inherent egotistical mindset among Moob Leeg and Hmoob Dawb and among every clan especially within the dominant ones such as the Lee, Lor, Yang, and Vang. Bottom line what most have said fact or fiction about GVP falls into one of these categories: pride, jealousy, antagonism, misinformation, and tales. Pick your poison.
That said I have personally met GVP on several occasion and he has never once talked about his ancestry. He has always said, "He is Hmong." Hmong regardless of whether one is Green or White seriously needs to quit segregating its people in these meaningless unprogressive irrelevant and pointless technicalities. It is just my opinion but throughout my research one thing that I noticed is that most Moob Leeg tend to always be the "naysayers". Interpret that however you want. And draw your own conclusions from your own research. Good luck!
@@aliasdoe007 I applaud you for your lengthy response. However, I must respectfully disagree with some of your opinions and supposedly observations in regards to Moob Leeg being the “naysayers”. I would say the opposite is true from my own personal experience. I’ve watched Gary Vue and the Hmong ABC store owner’s research into Hmong history and both are very bias against Moob Leeg. More recently Dao Thao and some of his supporters showed immerse prejudice against Moob Leeg dialect. In this respect, I cannot agree with your opinion that Moob Leeg as a whole are more prone to being “naysayers “. The research of Gary Vue and Hmong ABC owner was to validate their assumptions whether the original dialect of the Hmong in China was the White dialect or not. Their conclusion was that it was. Not to get into any unproductive arguments but to assert an intellectual debate to this subject is both interesting and educational. One fact I’ve learned from my readings of those books mentioned above is that the White dialect derived from the fact that the Whites are cooked or assimilated into the Han Chinese society. Their conclusion green dialect on the other hand are uncooked or wild, thus cannot be assimilated. In this regard, my personal opinion is that the green dialect is the more original of the two spoken dialects.
@@tonycaine5930 I will be the first to admit that whatever Gary Vue, Dao Thao, and Chue Pheng Xiong (Hmong ABC owner) has to offer in spite of whatever research they did or did not do I always took it with a grant of salt because I can do my own research and draw my own conclusions. Chue Pheng Xiong specifically truth be told was primarily spoon fed by Miao scholars during a Miao/Hmong symposium in the late 90s early 2000s. His research or lack of arguably is mostly hearsay or what he was spoon fed. I seriously doubt he researched any of the material he incessantly rants about. Why? Because I not only researched Hmong history but Miao history for many years and to my knowledge there literally is no English translated books regarding Miao history to be found practically nonexistent. So unless Chue Pheng can read and comprehend traditional Chinese not Pinyin then there is absolutely no way he would know anything factual about Miao history. Even accomplished Chinese and Miao scholars have to intimately study traditional Chinese before they can read translate and accurately interpret Chinese Antiquities - that is Chinese history pre Mao Zedong/Chinese Counter Revolution.
That said as I had mentioned everyone is entitled to their own opinion and conclusions -- hopefully based on some scholarships. It is a fact that when it comes to Moob Leeg and Hmoob Dawb it has always been a very sensitive (prideful) and even heated debate. Without mentioning names there are historical incidents from which I had based my opinion on and about Moob Leeg being 'naysayers' like you did with your examples. Not only that but a more recent Moob Leeg intervention is the 'honorary stone marker' at the St Paul capitol. That ordeal was spearheaded by Moob Leeg from what has been reported in the media.
As for the dialect debate I did my own research and have drawn my own conclusion. You may want to read Nicolas Tapp, The Hmong of China: Context, Agency, and the Imaginary (Leiden: Brill, 2001) as it does touch on the "raw" and "cooked" perspective. So if the White dialect is "cooked" and the Green dialect is "raw" then shouldn't the Hmong/Miao who historically and currently live throughout China primarily speak the White dialect -- a dialect that they apparently have little to no knowledge about nor can speak fluently. Yet ask any fluent Hmoob Dawb and Moob Leeg and they will tell you the Hmong/Miao throughout China speaks a dialect very similar to the Green dialect not only in pronunciation but words and word meaning as well. Additionally Moob Leeg can more easily understand and know between 50-70% of the Hmong/Miao dialect whereas Hmoob Dawb struggles to not only understand but knows less than 30-40% of the Hmong/Miao dialect. What dialect then is "raw" or "cooked" in this regard?
@@aliasdoe007 What's weird is there are White dialect speaking clan groups today that have made the switch from White to Green way back in the days in Laos. There are some Moua and Khang clans that did this. For what reason? Not sure.
More!
Correction: It is not Kaitong, rather it is correctly called: Kiatong
Indeed in Hmong it is Kiabtoom (as pointed out in video), but the Vietnamese, Highland Tai, Lao and French refer to it as Kaitong.
My bff is the great great grand daught of pa chay vue. Her brothers and cousins look like pa chay.
Where are they from?
@heretolearn5084 california east bay area
Please! We all have heard this or that. No one has facts period. My great great grandfather is supposedly from royalty - the Ming dynasty as a matter of fact. All fairy tales.
Hmong people, specifically those of the West and SE Asia, whether they want to believe it or not were nothing more than subjugated peasants throughout history. The Lor and Lee clan of SE Asia were nothing more than political puppets at the heels of their Chinese, Viet, French, and Lao overlords. That is fact!
It is a shame many as in ALL elders who has and had firsthand accounts and knowledge of Hmong SE Asia are all gone. They all will tell you emphatically that before GVP's ascension during the Lor and Lee era as Hmong dignitaries the Hmong people were no better than a dog -- beaten killed and discriminated against without prejudice.
What about hmong naikong?...Never heard of muas kiabtoom..
During the Kaitong Rebellion of 1893, the Moua Kaitong or Kiabtoom was the lead negotiator for the Hmong forces with the French at Cha Pha Ngoi (don't know if it was the battle site or the mountain the Hmong were fortified above). He was youngest and most linguistically fluent out of all the 3 Kaitongs that led their troops to attack the French at Ban Ban. He was chosen as the Hmong representative for all the Hmong in the Nong Het Region until he passed it on to Kaitong Lo Bliayao when the French came and demanded Hmong corvee labor and scouts for the construction of Colonial Route 7 (He relinquished his role as he was already an old man by this time). We didn't give a name because different sources gave different names, so we did not want to offend or incorrectly name someone's ancestor and his contributions to Hmong History.
@TigerBite-SizedHistory-ds8kb ..thanks
@@TigerBite-SizedHistory-ds8kb These stories are nothing but fairy tales because you said it yourself you do not have or can name actual individuals to provide any proof -- preferably well known and recognized ones by the Hmong populous not just family or clan-centric based created ones real or fictional. Without names or facts they are nothing more than tall tales derived by family and clan purely for self glorification. And a name plus its title is a Hmong person's or its people's biggest brightest and most coveted claim and proclamation to any esteemed perceived notion of grandeur leadership or nobility.
Perfect examples besides General VP are over a dozen Colonels and presently easily over 100 plus Pha Thas that is President of this and that mumbo-jumbo Hmong wanna be organization.
Point is the only universally known names titles and leaders in Hmong history specifically and rooted solely in Laos because that is what is most well known accepted and acknowledged by most if not all Hmong is just Lauj Kiab Toom (Lor Kia Tong) then Tub Npis Lis Foom (Touby Lee Fong) concluding with General VP.
Any Hmong leader or political dignitary outside of Laos and of that time period is purely conjecture whether that is in Vietnam, Burma, Thailand or China.
And quite honestly no one Hmong person at any or all levels of society during and at that time I have ever spoken with and interviewed has ever said or known any other Hmong leaders other than the three mentioned.
Any and all new revelation if minutely factual whatsoever are late 20th to early 21st century Hmong Western constructs and recreation by said Hmong clan and family enthusiast. Again trying to legitimize their name or whatever title they had perceived conception of and about. This is a reminder of the tale of which there is absolutely no proof whatsoever in suggesting that Dr Yang Dao was nobility since his father was a Hmong King in Northern Vietnam. Well the sad irony is that the more popular better known and first hand accounts and testimony is that Dr Yang Dao is in fact a non-Hmong orphan of warfare adopted and raised by a Hmong -- Xaiv Nus Yaj pretty sure that's the man's name.
Bottom line fact checking can be cumbersome when it comes to Hmong history but let us not open the flood gates to tales hearsay and conjecture to rewrite its already murky history.
Xieng Khouang was Hmong original territory after Hmong came from China to Landlocked
if you don't hold a phd, i call this video bull.... Need more hmong scholars not fake wanna beess
My thoughts exactly all Hmong history is juts what some guys grandpa said. 😂😂😂
PhD means nothing if you don't have a scholarship in Hmong history 😂😂😂.
@@kalords5967 🤣👍 -- have had the displeasure of meeting and speaking with supposedly Hmong PhD recipients and was utterly dumbfounded with a bad taste in my mouth.
As for Hmong history specifically they are probably just as clueless as their non-Hmong neighbor.