WHEN and WHERE to Use Void Knight Armor
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.ย. 2022
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19 minute video... "Raids, learning zulrah, budget barrows, anywhere salve works"
lmao, was looking for a summed up answer. Thanks for this.
Yall donr appreciate shit. Lol
Go read the wiki if you want to the point answers
You should be wearing void at all times after acquired because once you join the order of the void knights you can only leave on death and it's the coolest armour there is nerds
Lmao 😂
My boys never touched a piece of torva
This is true. Don't forsake the creed
Just to clarify, I wouldn't recommend void on aberrant or deviant spectres because you will want a nosepeg or slayer helmet or get bodied by their special attack. Asuka didn't specifically say spectres but because they are in the pic for undead it might get assumed.
That would go for banshees in the picture as well, seeing as without earmuffs/slayer helm they drain your stats heavily... I mean, I guess you could power through the task, but I don't see the point.
Let those noobs find out the hard way tf are you doing
@@Camelotsmoon nope.... you cannot power through the task. they'll drain you quickly it's basically impossible
So in short: it isn't really worth it except for Vorkath.
Nice information here! Really didn't even bother getting Melle helm yet @ combat lvl 111 guess it can still be helpful on a few slayer tasks I'm going to check it out !
I don't have void but I don't remember the helm counting as earmuffs or nosepeg for those slayer monsters pictured.
Void helm definitely doesn’t
Yeah doesn't work well for lotta slayer tasks need helm
Was wondering whether I should get void armour yesterday then you upload this video, excellent timing sir.
Very happy with this one stoked to grind it out on the uim :)
in your comparisons of void vs bandos and torva against tekton you had the void set still using pegasian boots while using primordials on the bandos and torva armour sets. So your void stats would actually have been slightly higher if you had switched the boots over to the melee ones as well
Legend! Was just thinking why I haven't seen good video explaining all of this. Very helpful! Now to get the melee and mage helms......
Void at banshees and aberrant spectres over slayer helm? I think we are forgetting the basics on what the helm provides. ie slayer head slot protections.
Also your dps calcs seem to be a bit mismatched - void melee with pegasian boots?
I think the other goal of the original question is simply - I can't afford/don't have access to masori/ancestral/torva. Does it make sense to use void over blessed d'hide? Use void when not on a slayer task? Use void for multi combat styles are needed to save on inventory space? Etc...
The easy answer is void is generally sub par to BIS, but as a mid game player how can it be useful?
If someone could use masori I don’t think they’d be worrying about void.. should’ve been on topic w the hides and armor under 50m
100% agreed, and also with not maxed combat, like 85 ranged/magic
It's sadly a must for the wdr discord which i find to be dumb
Maybe I missed it but..... how do you use void helm at aberrant specters?? Needs a nose peg no?
For the void melee setup. You forgot to change pegs to prims. Not much of a dif though
Yep. Prims and Pegs are some of the last upgrades you should make. D Boots and Blessed D Hide boots can carry you through anything. The best-in-slot boots make literally a fraction of a percent of difference. Not worth the gp unless you have literally nothing else to spend it on.
This is the exact damn video I needed
Going for elite void rn crazy
Great video! Not just giving us a fish but teaching us how to fish as well
When I do the dragon slayer 2 final boss, with 84 ranged. Is Karils better than void?
I use void almost anything myself. Mostly ofcourse goes for vorkath but the set is useful all around for everything except slayer beacuse slayer helm will be superior in most cases except like let say undead enemy slay tasks or wilderness slayer elite set along with certain amulet to be strong against undead is imobetter in most undead enemies.
Did void have specific level requirement like dharok? Dharok need 92+ HP to be effective
Finally a vid on this THANK YOU
Whether you're pet hunting, getting torso, or level 5s, void is bis at Barbarian Assault, and you will be judged heavily if you're wearing Armadyl. And you only bring a melee switch if you know what you're doing and have claws. With the exception of leech runs with more spec weapons.
BA is the one thing I have never had courage to try. The guides make me feel like a donkey lol
@@TheATOMICGOBLIN all the roles are super easy, I'd say defender is the only with with a "curve" but even then you can just cheese it by dropping all the food in a line to the traps lol
It's not. You just got a healer using two dose instead of one. It's not the healer, it's you in void. Lv 5 in all roles btw.
@@skyd6692 if you're actually saying void isn't bis for attacking at ba you, it definitely sounds like you just got lvl 5s and likely struggled to do it. Don't even understand what you mean though, in real games with good players the healer doesn't heal anyone once, just kills penance healers. 👀 1200 gc btw. And even if you aren't with good players you should still be using void and msb.
@@TheATOMICGOBLIN I remember years ago my mate trying to get me to play it and was explaining it to me. I swear, i thought he was deliberately making it confusing as possible to troll me (turns out he was just bad at explaining it) did it enough to get fighter torso and diaries, but haven't been back. 😏
Overkill dps is far more important than just using regular dps calc, Bitterkoeje's calc also shows overkill dps on the bottom right of the sheet if you select it from the drop down.
but is it more important for this? no
@@ricky5369 buddy’s comment helped me. Did your comment help? No.
@@TheRobJob huh?
@@ricky5369 youre right overkill damage is wasted damage it doesn't matter for this kind of test
@@tvdvd8661 omfg I'm so pissed I just wrote out a whole reply and then accidently exited out. I am furious. This happens to me all the time.
Basically, I felt he was nitpicking. I have a math degree and looking back I guess there is no harm in doing it. I don't remember exactly what I was thinking at the time, I just felt he was nitpicking. But it makes very little difference.
Another thing is the message is to show how they compare based on monster stats. This allows us to extrapolate to other monsters of similar stats, which might have different hitpoints values. The main message is to show that void is better for low defense monsters, so in a way calculating for overkill is actually worse for what we are trying to show.
Also I forgot to add when I rewrote this post, the reason why it doesn't matter is because we are comparing the armor not the weapons, so the max hits are going to be very similar. Combined with the idea that getting a general dps calc instead of one specific to a monster, makes calculating without overkill just as valid if not better than doing it with overkill.
When your comparing torva you had pegasian boots set on melee void.
I think if you're going to compare melee void at tekton, you then need to do olm hand too, since you can't switch gear in the raid. You generally don't need high accuracy for the olm hand so melee void is probably significantly worse than a fighter torso/nezzy & barrows gloves.... I don't know that for sure but that would be my guess.
Can you do this for Bowfa? I always see ACB/DHCB/Blowpipe/tbow and bowfa always 3rd BiS on the wiki for most things, so where can we use it that justifies its price?
It's really good at Soul Wars, still bis at KQ unless you have full Masori and BP with dragon darts, good at ToA until you have Tbow/Shadow, outright bis for solo ranged setups at Bandos (and only worse than Shadow in solos overall), and usable as a zero-risk weapon in the Wilderness for antipking. The crystal armor itself is also really good anywhere you value prayer over a few extra accuracy, like Sara and Hydra.
A note on ToA: DPS calculators won't tell you this, but Bowfa is better on normal mode Baba than anything except the Fang. Baba's ranged defense is quite high, but the overall accuracy difference is around 5%. Meanwhile, the Bowfa can be used while you are running away from the boss, so you get more ticks actually attacking with it than with a melee weapon, and it always 1-shots the boulders unless you're at like 500+ points, making you far less likely to die to random misclicks. Bowfa also shreds the obelisk at Wardens, especially if you haven't hit any BGS specs.
For questing it's decent for Sins of the Father as you can get a melee bonus while having magic defense.
Thanks for that, not that the quest is particularly hard but that's a great point to make since the final boss can be tricky with the mechanics for mid-lvl accounts. Thanks!
I regret not getting this sooner honestly I prolly lost 50m on bandos buying and reselling over time and another 20 to 50 mill on armardyl gear over time buying and reselling could saved a shit ton just on those items
essentially the higher level the content is the more it falls off due to higher defenses and damage from mobs, but honestly holds up ok so if in mid game def prioritize void then accessory items & weapons rather than upgraded armour sets
upgraded armor sets are better for mid game than void still, seriously where would u use it almost any alternative is better
I can't seem to find the link to the DPS calculator, does someone know if its worth it to use Elite void at Vorkath if you are killing Vorkath with a blowpipe and not a DHCB? I presume not as the multiplier is going off a much lower number
It’s in the top of the description. I’m able to see it.
@@AsukaYenOSRS I can also see it now, not sure if I was just dumb earlier or something was messed up. ty
What were the results with the blowpipe?
can i get the ladies wearing full void ?
When explaining tekton with the elder maul you have pegs on the void setup and prims on Torva setup
I blame jamflex. Two BIS boots that have names starting with P’s.
This was the exact comment I came to make.
Still a great vid like always
Okay so other than vorkath it was kinda useless to get?
Finished elite void last week and the last day I was grinding points we failed atleast 5 times in a row. People need to learn how to work doors 😂
There’s too many trolls that purposely open them or refuse to close them.
yooo I can use void over a slayer helmet on abberant spectres now?
can you do one one the bow foa with crystal armor and one with masori armor
So when u did ur tekton comparison at 13:20 roughly. And u said the void was better for dwh vs the Torva, ur graphic had bandos chestplate/tassets, instead of torva gear, but otherwise great vid, love the content
also he had pegs on for the void side
7:40 i feel ya, its hilarious truth of most of us to pronounce things, some of us give up and just call that thingimibob or the jiggymathin
You can't use void melee against undead creatures such as banshees or aberrant spectres like you have in the final image, you'll need the slayer helm or nose peg/ear muffs for the protection.
Void is like slayer helm isnt it?. I'm in free to play and I got iron gold I'm rich I think
@@northeastpyro8796 No.
Ive used elite void in over 1000 zulrah kills just for easy switches.
Imo there shouldn't be any situation where Masori is outclassed by void in terms of DPS but idc that much either way. I'm just saying that Masori isn't like Torva where you get DPS and defense. You really only buy Masori for the DPS increase because the defense is negligible compared to arma. No wonder the set is so cheap already along with the fact that it's the most farmed raid on release by far. Maybe that's a hot take but it's weird to me.
Because Nex isn’t farmed hard or anything😂
@@TheLeftReallyWeird I've thought about that before too. There has to be far more Torva in the game than Masori and Masori is already way cheaper. I just don't think it has the same "WOW" factor that Torva has unfortunately.
@@SB-SB the masori is actually incredible. Along with the defense it gives you’re also gaining a good amount of max hit. Tbow max hit is up by 4 now. 5 with zaryte vambraces.
@@AsukaYenOSRS you right, I really can't argue with that but it doesn't make me feel better about void being better in some scenarios. It's like saying the Fighter Torso should be better than a Torva plate in some scenarios. It just sounds like lunacy, the only reason it doesn't sound that way with void is because we're like 15 years into it being better than Arma so we just accept its the way it is.
I think melee is used much more widely than ranged so demand for melee gear is higher
Why use pegasians at tekton with void and prims with bandos and not both prims ?
That was an accident.
I do CMs and TOB in my Elite Void. It allows me to do less switches, bring more supplies, and overall exert less effort than any other sets. It's BIS because of this imo
Arma or dhides fully outclasses void in cox
yea ty4r that sounds like a much slower raid, u sound poor or a venny lol
As soon as you throw on a tormented, mystics is already better than void mage
The only places I can actually think void is worth using is at Barbarian Assault, and Chompy Bird Hunting.
Chompy Bird Hunting? never thought of that, TBH you could hunt chompys with nothing but the bow and ammo and still pwn them.😆
am I the only one that thinks hybrid armour sets would be cool in OSRS? some Vanguard/battle-mage types sets like they had pre-eoc but just with top and bottoms to fill in some nice convenient niche uses instead of more new BiS/power creep gear.
it would be nice but they wouldn't be used by anyone but pvmers. Pvpers are to good at switching to bother with hybrid sets unless the hybrid sets power krept everything.
The hard part is making it balanced. Most hybrid sets will most likely be much worse for either combat style so most won't use them.
They tried stuff like that with splitbark amour for battle mages and it's just meh.
Id like some hybrid but balance must always be kept, praise be guthix
Issue is dps trumps all. More dps means less times you get hit.
This was polled and failed. Just like the super sick armor that the NPC's in the new PVP Arena are wearing. I would've loved to have that in the game. It was going to be in game, then only in the arena, and then just failed completely.
for tekton the boot slot on the void set is not on primordial and loosing dps for that slot.
Yeah that’s my bad. Two P names I didn’t notice. Fack.
You do realize in chambers people take inquisitor over torva for the dwh hits and for tekton. The accuracy will be alot higher than the void melee
The inquisitors set will be 1.9% better accuracy than void if using the inquisitors helm as well, which isn't really viable to take for the whole raid. If using the faceguard, which is more efficient for the whole raid, it will be 0.56% more accurate, which is negligible due to the 157M price tag of the inquisitors plate and skirt. Unless you have 150+ to blow on half a percent of accuracy, it's not really worth it.
I think a key point missing in this video is that I believe the majority of players looking to get full void aren't going to be maxed. Your comparisons were made against mostly BIS / 2nd BIS items. I think a more relevant question would be how does full void compare to blue, maybe black d'hide for someone with mid-tier stats. Is it worth for that lvl 80 cb to spend the time to get full void or go for something else? For an Ironman for example, a 6% DPS difference between full void and Masori is irrelevant because they aren't going to be able to get full Masori off the GE anyways, so might as well get full void as a very close comparison. The reason I got full void was because I am playing an Ironman and didn't have great gear to begin with. So spending the time to get full void for all three styles was great, because now I have gear I can use pretty much anywhere and have it even occasionally be BIS.
Was thinking of using void at vetion
Can u do a new tob gear progression
Idk where to use the bowfa I bought 😭
My void is broken. I have elite, but at vorkath my kills take 20-30 seconds longer using void?
If you're using blowpipe and not DHCB, red d'hide is better dps than void at vorkath lmao
@@nopurpd not using either of those lol. DHL and only kill him on slayer task so slayer helm.
I didn't think I needed to mention void melee near useless at vorky, who on earth told you to bring that?
There we go we found the idiot that wears void with slayer helm
" I have elite, but at vorkath my kills take 20-30 seconds longer using void"
🤔Strange......
"DHL and only kill him on slayer task so slayer helm"
🤨So void melee?.........😮💨
😏😏
For chambers, just use void range if there are no Mystics or Vespula in your raid. The other sets are just not worth it. Most viewers do trio anyway so stats will change and you're not using maul/hammer as main hand in that scale. Any hammer not hit still reduces defence on Tekton slightly. Rest of the raid the void just doesn't compare to a setup that is essentially 40m, which is already super cheap.
And if you have masori then you don't need void range for cox
I'm sorry I'm confused, what is your point? I don't get it. I'm not trying to be sarcastic but I honestly am confused.
I'm just so damn confused man, I have no idea what you're saying. I don't know what you mean the other sets are not worth it, like don't bring the melee or mage helm? Or don't get them all? If you mean don't bring the switch ok, I was confused because I didn't know that came up. Then you said any hammer spec reduces Tekton's defense which is does by 5% I think. I just don't see the connection with the void stuff, how it relates. The last sentence I can make sense of a bit, you're saying you shouldn't use void because a 40mil gear setup is better. Yea that's true, but the sky is blue. Like, why are you bringing that up? Everyone knows void isn't best in slot and no one was saying otherwise. If void was so bad then teams wouldn't let people use it. Clearly, there is a minority of players that is worth it to use if void is allowed by teams. If that's the best gear they have, then that's it. What's your point?
Finally, why would you specify trios? A true dps nerd would never specify something like that, it sounds like you do trios and that's all your knowledge extends to.
I remember I watched this video about a person shooting an arrow in the air to calculate the maximum range. There was an argument in the comments about the best angle for maximum range. People were saying 45 degrees, and then the most upvoted comments said it's 45 degrees in a vaccuum. I have a bachelor's degree in Physics and you first learn this problem with no air resistance in high school, and then with air resistance when going for a bachelor's using differential equations. With no air resistance the theoretical number is 45 degrees, but that's just to teach people. Doing the problem properly with air resistance comes out to around 40-42 degrees depending on variables.
Many of them wanted to share that they knew how to do the simplified problem they learned in high school, but they don't know enough to solve it correctly. My spanish teacher used to tell me this, I would try to use my the tenses that I learned to say other things, but it does not come out correctly. She always told us not to try to extend what we know.
Is it just me that noticed the pegasian boots at 15:06 on void setup?
mate is talking about void melee being good against some undead slayer tasks with a picture of abby spectres and banshees, but you literally cant use void because u need either a nose peg or ear muffs/ or just a slayer helm. 16:20
"Void is better DPS against some undead creatures that you can slay!"
Shows picture of multiple creatures that require a different headgear slot in order to kill.
Only one was Spectres. You can safe spot them if you attack from 6 spots away, since that is their attack range, and stay in void. Hope that helps.
For the record, void mage is better DPS than ahrims at most places (including zulrah) if you dont have a tormented bracelet
Yes if not on slayer task for sure 👍 just about to hit 1800 skilltotal on my group ironman oorah!
This is only barely true (at Zulrah) if you've got eternals and mage's book, but if you can afford ahrims, a mage's book, and eternals, you can afford a tormented bracelet by downgrading. But yeah, void mage is actually not bad if you have good boots, ammy, cape, off hand, and ring. Too bad you're forced to not use seers at zulrah or it would be better.
i feels like people sleep on the elite mage set. maybe its more an ironman ting. if you factor in the time to get ahrims or infinity theres almost 0 cases where its worth. just go mystics -> elite mage -> ancestral.....
Can I used void for cannoning green drags in Wild or is this a bad idea
Bad idea. Void doesn’t affect the accuracy or damage of a cannon.
@@AsukaYenOSRS yea I get that but if I’m using it to kill green drags and I’m not skulled in the wild what happens. Does it get lost or is it kept on my +4
If you would've changed pegs to prims void might've been better than torva
You can't use void at specters cause you need a nose Peg
Yes that’s true. That was an oversight by me to put them in the graphic. The point want just to consider undead creatures.
I killed specters with void, was my whole thing as an ironman I got everything ready, but at the end of the day it's just too hard cause they will attack you eventually without a nose peg equipped and ruins the whole scenerio.
What’s the reason for the bolt switch at vorkath?
Dragon Ruby Bolts (e) provide more DPS due to their special effect until Vorkath has around 270 HP left. From 270-0 HP, Dragon Diamond Bolts (e) then take over as better DPS.
15:20 pegasian boots - primordial boots
On your tekton example, you used pegs instead of prims on the void side btw
Also elder maul gives max hits on str (agressive) instead of accurate. (atk)
So use void till u get masori
I wouldn't use void at abby spectres as you're going to get absolutely wrecked by the stat reducing attacks. Need a nosepeg so slayer helm is a necessity there.
You can actually safespot and range them from 7 tiles away. Range void works decent here.
@@AsukaYenOSRS True, just the graphic made it seem like void melee would work. Might have to try safespotting them though, ty for the tip :)
@@OnionManSteve yeah I’ll admit I threw the graphic together hastily. It was more just to get the point across that it can be better than slayer helm on certain tasks. Assuming you’re using the proper salve amulet.
Can you wear a slater helmet with void. On a slayer task
You cannot. You wouldn’t get the bonus from void. Only the slayer helmet.
@@AsukaYenOSRS thanks man. I have muspah task and wanted to know if I could. Keep up the good videos :)
i got void a month ago and ive been looking for this EXACT VIDEO. Thanks bro!
Also, i got Sirachnis at 63kc. Vid is on my channel if the clip is worth using!!
where is the dps claculator link?
Sorry about that. I thought I put it in. It’s there now.
Mage void is for tanking bandos or zammy.
DEBATE ME
void is better than blessed dhide at zulrah. also there are tons of weps that are better than blowpipe with void (blowpipe only bis with full max range) Ahrims isnt even better, BUT if you have tormented bracelet it barely beats void. and if your going to spend all that gold on ahrims and tormented bracelet, might as well keep using void and upgrade to elidinis ward
void is alot better than most people think.
No it really isn't you're just poor
Theres nothing wrong with using void at zulrah but lets not delude ourselves. Dhide gives much better accuracy bonus and so does ahrims - which is preferred to have at Zulrah and speeds up the kills. Ahrims + tormented is so much better than elite void - thats just a plain fact.
Sure void does more damage than blessed dhide with a blowpipe. But your mage setup is dogshit and thats 2/3 of the phases.
You have no prayer bonus without elite void and your defense is dogshit.
So, you are bringing a setup that is only better for 1/3 of the fight.
That’s without even mentioning that you are going to take 4x-5x the damage I would take in range gear with more defense from the snakelings. The majority of snakelings despawn before they hit me and kill themselves with suffering, that won’t be the case with void.
Now for the other 2/3 of the fight, Zulrah has low magic defense especially in range form, increasing your accuracy by 45% at the cost of losing a shitload of percent bonus damage for a boss with low defenses is just very silly.
If void is the best you have, yes it is doable.
Is it good? No it’s dogshit for everything except TOB and vorkath.
*sighs in pure*
I'm impressed.. bitterkoekje is indeed dutch , you have no idea how many people ask us : are you / do you speak german ? 😂
I translated it to mean "Bitter cookie" 🤷♀Im from New Zealand and don't know any Dutch, but i did have a Dutch GF a long time ago, and picked up little bits.😄
VENEZOLANOS PRESENTES!!!!
VENEZUELAN ARMY ASSEMBLE!
but if u use void on slayer tasks that meed nose peg or ear muff u might get shreded
You can actually safe spot from 7 tiles away and use void.
@@AsukaYenOSRS oh cool, did not know that one
cant use void at abby spectres
...
You can actually range them from 7 tiles away if they’re safe spotted. The point was that it can be used for some stuff. It was just a quick graphic I made to accompany the point.
I use void for everything from bandos to zulrah. Yes there is better but who cares. I just throw on a twisted buckler and a dragon cbow and start killing.
Exactly, I can't believe how much snobbery has crept into RS over the years.
My guy really put 2/3 monsters where void could not be used because Earmuffs and nosepeg needed when talking about salve/void combo 🤣 great video nonetheless
The graphic was really just accompanying the point. However, you can use void ranged on both of those when they’re safespotted.
Asookahh!
So.. dumping my 300 pts into ranged right now to get 70 would be stupid .. just save for the void armor first
this is some 0 IQ gaming, don’t use void it’s next to useless for anything other than entry level pvm and even then the defense from other armor sets is better than the minimal accuracy increase u see as a result
Would void be good on Jad?
If you have decent defense to tank the healers it will do okay. I’ve done fire capes in void but I do have a lot of experience.
@@AsukaYenOSRS I currently have 80 defense. I also customized my prayer tab which makes it easier.
@@AsukaYenOSRS any recommendations on which bolts are best? I’m not using blowpipe.
@@Rockstarr_nV dragon diamond bolts (e) are fine to use.
@@AsukaYenOSRS thoughts on diamond and ruby?
Can you do a video on bank value crashing in price. My bank crashed from 1.6b down to 350m and I’m so depressed. I don’t know whether I should hold on to my items to sell them. I bought 3 scythes for 700m each now they’re like 250m each
You lose if you sell don’t sell bros and hold it down should bounce back after the hype
Sounds like you got played you don't need a video explaining that. You had 1.6b trying to flip-up high margin items. What'd you think was gonna happen?
@@LMFYB are you sure about that? I should probably just hold on to them and play the game as is. I can always make the money back
so essentially for the time investment it's useless...
19 minutes for like 3.5 locations lets goooooooooooooooooooo
Elite void is great for barrows.
I prefer graceful, but I’m also max combat
Max combat at Barrows? You collection log people are crazy.
@@nopurpd hahahah true
Only elite void is good, and that's even questionable. It only has a few niche uses like raids 1 and 2, if you're a brokie. It's bis at Vorkath, and pretty decent for money snake, if you don't have ahrims or a t bow.
Timestamps please
Void is good at barb assualt
Definitely not in Expert masses at TOA, especially when Quiet prayers are on. 🤣 this guy was insistent, so we allowed him along to prove it. He died every room and at Wardens, 5 deaths, single-handedly sinking our purple chance. 😂
Oof 😆
whish there was a list of places where void is best ...
1. Vorkath
2. Barbarian Assault
3. …
Thank you for viewing my list.
Imo the video was too long, with too much talking and not much meaningful information
only elite void is good
I've never had close to a billion gp so void will be best in slot since I don't have access to the other gear
.. don't have access to the other gear _yet._ You can easily do all three raids in void, and if you do I suggest wearing a ring of suffering i because void is very squishy armor.
"where all" this dude has to be from pittsburgh
Video starts at 2:00 lmao
Im not convinced.
by BitterCooky hahaa!!!
I think evey item in PC should be reduced by 100 points. Making it quicker to get base void. And increase the elite void by 100 points so its even more prestigious to have and takes more grinding.
terrible clicbait video he doesnt do anything useful in the game!
vid needs better research
first
@Cuntycunterson Damn, you so sassy.
So they're basically useless