How are the "D&D killers" doing?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 มิ.ย. 2024
- 🚀 Dive into the Future of RPGs! 🎲✨ In this video, we discuss three upcoming RPGs: MCDM's tactical epic, Tales of the Valiant's 5e evolution, and the innovative DC20 system.
🔍💡 Which game will be the engine to your future tabletop adventures? Join us on this thrilling journey and share your thoughts in the comments below!
Tales of the Valiant
Website | www.talesofthevaliant.com/
DC20
Dungeon Coach Channel | / @thedungeoncoach
Treantmonk's Temple Video | • 6th Edition D&D is bei...
DC Kickstarter | kickstarter.com/projects/thedungeoncoach/dc20
DC20 Actual Play | • DC20 + The Dungeon Coach
MCDM
Crowdfunding video | • The MCDM RPG Crowd Fun...
BackerKit| mcdm.gg/RPG - เกม
Nice to see 5e enthusiasts have a Hasbro free option.
@Paizo is working to provide an option to tables out there also.
There have always been Hasbro-free options. You can even download the PDFs if you like 5e but don't want to give Hasbro your money. What is anyone going to do about that? Copyright infringement is not a crime, even if the EU pretends that it is. Intellectual property doesn't even exist. Just do what you want and tell the big corporations to go to hell where they belong.
That's the power of Tales that I think will become more and more important in the next year when everything is finalized and 1.0 for dnd 2024 (or 5.2 as I call it ) , TotV & DC20 come out. they have KP , who is well liker , doing basically 5.x allowing anyone who is interested in 5e continue without supporting WotC. DC20 out for those who want a truly different version of the d20 system and they can wait and or jump into the play test of MCDM for a different system using the writing people know ahd love.
@@michaelgunn9883but the core system is still mostly WotC owned and copyrighted , due to the creative commons now we'll now have more games that are the typical fantasy system using the 3.x based d20 system without the WotC name attached at all except for a little blurb about creative commons
@@michaelgunn9883 oh, I’m not a 5e [or even a dnd] player anyway. It is just interesting to keep an eye on what’s happening with it. After all, dnd is still so big it has ripple effects on the wider ttrpg community.
Here for the DC20 love! Very excited for the Kickstarter. Should be in 4 months or so.
Can't wait for the final version of DC20. I have been watching dungeon coach wince he first started his channel. One of the best D&D TH-camrs
Absolutely!
I agree. I’ve been a fan of his now for nearly 3 years.
DC20 is the one I'm most excited for.
Shadowdark and Olde Swords Reign are really nice D&D 5e alternatives
This is incomplete without a review of SHADOWDARK. Matt Coleville himself said that if he wanted to play a gritty version of 5e focusing on dungeon exploration and resource management, he would play Shadowdark!
id just play d&d. shadowdarks another game that wont be around in 2 years.
@@KhobaiI highly doubt that. It has a pretty active community and other people are making content, so I'd say it will last. Akin to OSE, we'll see more from shadowdark.
@@DudeUrNuts probably not. i doubt anyone will even remember it in 2 years. the biggest probelms with these heartbreaker rpgs is getting players to actually play them. if you go to your local gamestore and ask people if they wanna play shadowdark theyre like wtf is that lets just play D&D and the gamestore doesnt really want you playing it either because its not D&D and wont help them sell products.
@@Khobai Haven't played shadowdark but just a brief look at the quickstart rules and an advantage to it might be that it seems like it's basically AD&D with some 5E bits stolen. You could probably just tell people you're running an AD&D game with simplifying house rules.
On the other hand... you could just run an AD&D game with house rules.
Lol - it is a rules system and a concept. It does not matter if it is printed once or a hundred times. What matters is that the concepts are now available for the community. Just as the 1st edition D&D concepts are available for everyone. A new approach exists and the community can chose how to approach and play in their campaigns.@@Khobai
DC20 is simply a game that seems to get a lot of mechanics right compared to dnd. Also, the guy made a paid option for the Alpha because otherwise he wouldn’t have the fund to continue doing it.
Yeah. And many requested this. Cause people were planning to hop on the Patreon just to get the Alpha.
Was a nice move from the guy.
The DC20 RPG looks awesome, but paying for an alpha without getting the full game too seems very strange. Maybe there will be a discount or some other bonus later on?
The alpha once bought is regularly updated no extra cost so you’re getting more and more of the game as it is developed. Dungeon Coach has been pretty transparent (needed the funds from the alpha sales to fund development) and where he can be generous. I know it’s weird, but it’s also worth it, and I’ve actually gotten more play out of this alpha than I have a lot of completed games.
What Glen said ^ Alan is a father trying to support his family too. He's a super cool guy. If you want a great system and are able to spend the $15, I highly recommend. If even only for helping support him achieve his goals and dreams while supporting a family
I would like to look into MCDM's more, but at first blush, it seems crunchier than I'd want. ToV wasn't revolutionary enough for me to switch. DC20 is the one I'm most intrigued about. And frankly, it's mostly just the spells. Consolidating all the spells into a limited number that you can upgrade in multiple ways consistently. Just that is a HUGE improvement for me. I'm iffier about determining multiple advantages vs disadvantages though. As much as it makes sense stacking advantages vs disadvantages, I feel like we'd move back to previous D&D's where you scoured manuals to find additional bonuses.
MCDM products have always been a little on the crunchy side so I would expect their RPG to be as well. As for DC20 I am also concerned about the tracking of adv but I am open to seeing how it works in play, I am sure Dungeon Coach is aware of the potential issues!
Truthfully what little I've seen of the MCDM RPG project makes me very excited. It takes some of the concepts from 4th Ed I care about and focuses on making sure the player is always involved. If I had to honestly compare crunchiness between current 5E and what this project appears to be, 5E is definitely higher on the crunch
from play tracking advantages doesn't seem to be an issue, since it is a per turn basis. I hope it will be simpler than PF2e when it is finished, so far it looks that way
I can see that as a potential concern for dc20. You can get a lot of advantages on one check. One of the benefits of advantages though is that they progressively become less and less useful. The first one adds an effective 3.8ish to your tool the second adds 2. Something on average, and past that it doesn’t add much. So i don’t think there’d be too value in scoyring for bonus due to significantly diminishing returns. (Plus it’s still bounded, no matter how many d20’s you roll you can never get higher than 20).
In my playtest advantages typically come from character abilities that are easy to track, but people sometimes forget advantages for things like prone.
not sure if you know, but do you know of a system (doesn't need to be d20) where each instance of a modifier (either more dice or stacking +1s) gets you progressively better results? (2dX at low chances have this, but I want a base chance of around 65%) Thanks@@RedsByrd
I am supporting all three is these. But I’ve been huge on my DC20 support since conception.
I'm super into DC20, excited for the MCDM RPG, but I haven't looked into TOV yet. I'll have to check that one out. Especially since it's so like 5e...
Thanks for the update.
Im skeptical about MCDM as not having a way to fail an attack feels like it removes the point of having armor.
@@InnerMedium
You make a good point.
Do you think that the armor will reduce the amount of damage instead???
@@Jason-96 they have discussed in their Patreon posts as well as videos on the topic that heavier armor increases hit point- something taken from wargames (or in my experience, Final Fantasy Tactics!)- while coming with a penalty to movement speed (though, looking at the mock-ups on the Backerkit page, that seems to now come in the form of a decreased move speed bonus compared to lighter armor).
As Matt Colville explained it, if armor in a system like D&D caused an attack that would deal an average of ten damage to miss an average of three times in a combat, then mathematically, giving the target of the attack an extra 30 hit points and making it impossible to miss them is functionally equivalent.
IIRC, they did prototype systems for armor being damage reduction, but they weren't happy with how those systems felt at the table.
@@InnerMediumthats a funny reversal actually. I feel like new players first being exposed to armor class often have trouble processing that armor causes miss chance to go up rather than making you more resilient to damage.
Now we got people like you saying they dont understand how armor could work without miss chance being in the game haha.
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Idk, I just think thats very funny to see the 180 in game design expectations.
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To be clear, no judgment though. If you've only ever been exposed to armor class and never been exposed to damage reduction or max hp bonuses as ways to represent armor, then its probably going take getting used to, but I assure you that the idea is well tested and not at all revolutionary.
@@tonysladky8925 _is functionally equivalent._
As someone who is old enough to remember when these were actual wargames, that's so untrue, it makes me angry to read. Miss factors and HP are NOT interchangeable. Consider death effects, or artillery, or magic, and how the inability to miss massively changes their nature. Imagine being on a hewn battlefield where everyone gets shot at multiple times a turn by screening fire. That extra HP is worthless, multiplicative or additive. Doesn't matter.
If your RPG system is designed to make sure Timmy is never disappointed by his turn _first,_ Its going to be crap. It has to be a legitimate strategy and tactics game first, and then you can put your story into that system, and trying to do it backwards is just that, backward.
Drama nerds need to leave the RPG systems to the math nerds and and fire their marketting teams, because those people keep telling you you're better at the job than you are, and for people like me, this entire situation went beyond obnoxious a long, long time ago.
Some that might also be worth mentioning for fantasy “D&D killers”!
• Vagabond
• BREAK!!
• Quest
• Pathfinder 2E Remastered
Thank you so much!
The MCDM rpg is the only one I am really excited about. Because it radically changes many staples that i have an issue with. But if someone wanted ro really play d&d i would suggest DC 20 like a good 6e. Sticking with the basics of the design but with clear improvements on it.
I bought the Alpha for DC20 because I love the system and really want to play it more. 0.5 Alpha will be out tomorrow which I am looking forward to. Te MCDM RPG sounds awesome and I just bought the core books on their crowdfunding campaign. Tales of the Valiant doesn't intrigue me all that much since it seems like more of the same, but I hope they succeed.
I doubt any of these will be D&D killers, but they are welcome changes to the core D&D players who feel betrayed by WOTC.
Pretty much how I feel. If anything is going to kill D&D it's going to be Hasbro, at least if Roll for Combat is to be trusted.
I custom built an action-oriented monster MCDM style for my group's Ravnica campaign and I found the monster much easier to run since I didn't have to think about which cool thing it was doing on a given turn. If their bestiary is even half as intuitive as that system, it will be a treat to run.
I have a lot of hope for DC20. It’s getting a lot of support and live plays from influential people in the space.
Me and my group gave DC20 a try and liked it so much we have fully switched to it from 5e, even as a 0.5 Alpha/Beta it offers so much.
So basically, buying the Alpha is because of funding short comings in early development, if you buy the alpha you get all updates sent to you with it.
I had the chance to play Tales of the Valiant at Gen Con. It was fine, it was pretty much 5e with a handful of little tweaks. It is too similar to 5e which is my problem, because 5e has lots of issues and ToV doesn't really solve any of them.
I really like Matt Colville and he inspired me in lots of ways but what little I've seen of MCDM RPG, I can't see why I would ever play it. It doesn't solve any of the pain points I have with 5e, and it does weird things that I take issue with, so if I had a choice I would keep with 5e over MCDM.
The Dungeon Coach and I both have some of the same issues with 5e and he actually manages to solve like over 50% of the problems that 5e has, and if I weren't developing my own more narrative and straightforward TTRPG, I would definitely switch to DC20. I can't see any downsides to DC20 when compared to 5e, even the upcoming 2024 system update.
Really look forward to trying all of these! Great point that Tales of the Valiant could be a hasbro free 5e option, I've been quite excited about that one!
They seem nice i think €15 isnt that much especially when you consider you get a 100 plus page document as well as the promise too get every update untill the kickstarter is live it will take some time but from what is looks like dc20 will release about 70% of the full game with those 15 dolars not bat at all as of now lvl 1 and 2 are released and its genuanly fun too play i havent had the chance too test mcdm yet but that seems cool tails of the vailiant i dont know how too feel about if
agreed, especially because dungeon coach started the project by himself so money is needed to start and advance a project like this. I had a one shot with some friends last night, and they had some pretty awesome moments even as lvl 1 characters, I think it would feel kinda bad to go back to start a new campain in 5e now
I'm honestly super happy a lot of people are fine with the 15 price tag!
Level Up is another 5e Variant. Interesting but very much 5e.
It is awesome to see all the love and excitement for DC20. I was on the alpha review team and play a small part in development now, and let me just say there has already been a 0.5 update to alpha and it is huge the way that Alan is non-stop grinding to make this literally the best TTRPG he possibly can. Love y'all and keep your eye on DC20.
Couldn't agree more!
Alan (dungeon coach) said that they needed funds to continue the project to the point of being ready for the Kickstarter. I think their idea is to have the beta by the time the Kickstarter releases. I'm not sure exactly, but I will trust that the price is a necessary evil until proven otherwise.
MCDM and DC20 seem so cool. I'm also looking forward to play Daggerheart
Honestly, the DC20 Alpha costing $15 isn't a big deal. Dungeon Coach looks like it's a one man operation. If he's dedicating the correct amount of time to the creation of a whole new game system, then he needs more funding than what his die-hard patrons are giving him. He's essentially taking on another full-time job.
Also of note are the two separate games Critical Role is developing. Candela Obscura and Daggerheart.
I generally prefer Cypher System over 5e, so I'm looking at Daggerheart and MCDM's THCF the closest. I swear every third point Colville made in his videos introducing his new game's goals reminded me of Cypher System.
Candela is out now but has some negative reviews as a clone/poor design. I personally haven’t played it just what I have heard
@madwithjacob Yes, I've heard all the "Blades in the Dark clone" arguments. The fact remains the differences between blades and candela are greater than the differences between 5e and 3e.
Before watching the video I thought the 3 killers would be MCDM's game, DC20, and DAGGERHEART (Didn't even remember the koboldpress one existed, lol)
Disagree on your point about paying for Alpha. It seems to me like a way to support the project, get an early look, plus the dev has a strong filter for people who are invested who are now testing.
All good reasons! People do tend to be more invested in something after they pay for it.
I can see that as a solid alternative or precursor to crowdfunding.
ToVs Alpha had too much copy and pasted (literally word for word) from the SRD to be charging for it.
I appreciate ToV as a 5e replacement for people who want to continue playing what is basically 5e without giving Hasbro/Wizards anything, but I am one of those people that bounced hard off it for being too much like 5e. Happy playing Pathfinder for now, and have high hopes for MCDM's system.
I've been running the Alpha of DC20 for a few months now. Honestly feels like this will be the game system I use for the next 20 years! The possibilities are massive just in the Alpha stage, and casters aren't even at full power yet as the spells haven't been fleshed out. As it stands now, just playing levels 1 and 2, my players are having a blast!
That's excellent! I see some folks are worried about the stacking and canceling of and disadvantage advantage. How are you finding that sub-system?
@@Wiz_and_Pippy It's very intuitive and not broken. The Help Die mechanic is more powerful, for sure.
This is a very well written script. Awesome job!
Thank you so much 😀
I backed TOV as I run 5e most of the time and if I can continue to play the system with smart revisions and not support WotC, that's what I would prefer. I'm PUMPED for DC20 and will most likely be backing the kickstarter next year. The $15 Alpha IS in fact an alternative to getting access through Patreon. I think it's a fairly low barrier to entry, as you have to be willing to support it to get this early access and are more likely to provide feedback. But honestly it's worth it as the system is more fully developed than Wizard's own playtest rules. I'm definitely curious about MCDM, but it's the 3rd tier interest out of these three for me.
I am surprised that Indestuctoboy's Vagabond didn't make this list.
That one flew under my radar for too long for me to feel comfortable including it in this one. But I think I'll have to make a follow up judging from the comments!
DC 20 is probably my favorite of these, I don't know as much about TOV but I know DC 20 is actually fantastic and fixes a ton of problems
Finally someone that understands what tales of the valiant is all about
Yes more of this as this is my first video of yours! Which thanks for covering the big 3 as I bounced off all of them due to poor choices they made mostly unrelated to the games... Which instead of MCDM's Kickstarter I'll be backing OKest's SAGAS one instead as they have been more friendly to me and the game is great! Pretty much a modular approach to a universal TTRPG.
What did they do that put you off the systems?
What did they do that caused you to abandon their games?
I am getting TOV and am intrigued by MCDM RPG.
thanks for making this update
Some other ones that are in development or released you could look into:
The Fifth Season Roleplaying Game, by Green Ronin Publishing
Cool Name RPG, by Mechanical Muse
Cypher System by Monte Cook Games
Also, Black Flag Roleplaying Game is the community version for Kobold Press Tales of the Valiant. Kinda like the SRD is to the WotC published books.
My players never wanted to switch from 5e, but a few months ago I came across 5B by Dank Dungeons. That was the D&D killer for me. The math works just like 5e, but it gives an awesome BX/BECMI vibe without the race as class and, in my opinion, a much neater magic system.
MCDM is probably going the best of them by far. Great design, from scrats, and clear gameplay goals. The rest seem like a collection of ideas, which some are good and some are ok, but they feel a bit like "my version of 5e". Also, I miss the inclusion of Shadow of the Weird Wizard, which is an amazing game.
You made a video about D&D Killers, but didn't list Hasbro 😉
Ah yes the bane of good games. The mighty Hasbro
@@sishfun for context, Hasbro is the reason the OGL fiasco happened (which was arguably the main catalyst for the creation of the games mentioned in the video, and others like them). To my perspective, it's been clear that the heads of WOTC (i.e. the people appointed by Hasbro) are more concerned with the D&D "brand" than they are in giving good support to the game and its playerbase.
Touché!
@@thecurlylockes4069 sorry if I sounded sarcastic. I was merely using dramatic language. I have a strong hatred for Hasbro. They are also most likely responsible for the recent decline in MTG
👏👏👏
Great Video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
In term of 5e alternative, I am looking forward to C7D20 from cubicle 7 rather than Tales of the Valiant. I will still likely check out ToV.
MCDM look interesting, makes me think of 13th Age a little. Kind of D&D but not exactly.
You're not the first person I've seen compare MCDM RPG to 13th Age. I haven't had the pleasure to play 13th Age. I tried to get my group to play it a long time ago but they preferred to just play 5e 😂
Wait, Cubicle 7 is doing a 5e competitor? That's awesome
Honestly got you in my recommended feed as I was watching another update about a certain company. I plan on watching your vids but keep it up, I like your content.
I appreciate that!
It's a weird omission (though not that weird since, AFAIK, we haven't gotten much news about it since its initial announcement during the OGL crisis) that Darrigton Press's Daggerheart isn't on the list. Back in the OGL Crisis, that was one of the big ones to watch because Critical Role, and then… nothing.
From Bob World Builder's video on the playtest he attended at PAX Unplugged they're still fine-tuning (or maybe gross-tuning) the game mechanics. The use of cards to represent ancestries, classes, and features seems to have changed between that one sneak peak and BWB's game.
These were simply the ones I had followed the most closely and wanted to talk more about. But you are right, though the title is mostly tongue-in-cheek, Hasbro probably is the most worried about Daggerheart.
Shadow Of The Weird Wizard is another one that's currently in the works.
No mention of Shadow Dark?
I'm watching TotV. I'm already familiar and have investment in 5e. So migrating to this would be easy. Furthermore, any additional 5e ecosystem material that exist because of the OGL would also be available with little or no additional work. That's a pretty strong ecosystem without the ongoing risk of Hasbro dropping another shoe.
These other systems sound cool. They have my attention too. But history suggests they're doomed. The OGL comes from a dieing industry of little, incompatible bubbles around games (almost) all trying to be a better D&D. The bubbles would spawn around a new rule set... then die out taking their user base with them and leaving a weaker industry. Enter the OGL which attempted to create a common ecosystem around a common rule base. An experiment that... largely... succeeded. Despite WotC attempting to create a better D&D not under the OGL (4e) and failing at it where Pathfinder prospered by... doing D&D under the OGL.
I wouldn't mind being wrong here. But my bet would be on TotV being low friction following a historical path to success.
5:19 Most TTgames Dev builds are free these days if not all the core/quick rules so that rubs me the wrong way as Press who has shown hundreds of dev builds both TT and video games. We stopped as a industry charging for each major version a long time ago if it was ever a thing to begin with.
Here are another two options for those who like 5th Edition and want something that doesn't give money to WotC.
"Level Up 5e" published by EnWorld is basically AD&D 5E, it sports one of the best Monster books out there, and does a solid job of adding meat to the bones of 5E. Some players I know want more in depth rules without quite hitting the complexity of Pathfinder 2e or 3.5e based games, and this is a solid choice. That said, I've not put these rules into practice myself.
The next one I'm partial to as I've been following them for a while. As such there's more information provided.
"FateForge" is made by the French developer Studio Agate, creators of the Dark Fantasy Horror RPG Shadows of Esterenn. It features a modular system where, depending on the theme you want, you can apply certain rules listed in the book. Want combat to be a little more brutal? Use the "Gritty" rules and add the "Wounds" option. Want a campaign focused on intrigue and mystery? Or perhaps one with a more Dark Fantasy bent? Or maybe one that's even more heroic than typical 5e gameplay? they have options for those and more. Magic is entwined in its setting a bit more than most D&D settings, enough that it merited its own core book called "Grimoire" which includes things like alternate spell components and how they might change a spell, Geomagical regions, and more.
Also, with the OGL fiasco, Studio Agate went and made their core book PDF's 'pay what you want' on Drive Thru RPG. These are beautiful books too with stunning art direction. So, highly recommend.
Any thoughts on EN Publishing’s Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition? It’s my personal favorite!
I'm expecting Tales of the Valiant to be a smaller change from D&D 5e than Pathfinder 1e was from D&D 3.5e. Kind of a D&D 5.1. I wonder whether One D&D will be more or less different from 5e than Tales of the Valiant. DC20 feels more similar to Pathfinder 2e than D&D 4e so far (aside from the skill challenges). The upcoming game that I would personally compare to D&D 4e in terms of combat mechanics is MCDM.
I disagree. DC20 look a lot with 4e.
Almost all the designs from Pathfinder2e came from 4e too.
I'm playing AD&D 2nd edition
I'm glad to see 5e alternatives popping up, but I truly wish game designers would start getting experimental with their designs. I'm tired of DnD clones, I want to see more original spins on ideas. Less Tales of The Valiant, more DC20
The Stormlight Archives rpg is the one with the potential to end 2024 with the biggest Bang.
I had just learned about that on the Roll for Combat show from last week. Those folks seem to think it's going to make a boat load of cash!
I’d love to hear about Critical Roles systems if we know anything yet!
check daggerheart
IndestructoBoy released a video on Candela, tho is not a positive one. Still recommend the watch.
Candela Obscura is already out I think. Or it's in late beta. Not sure.
Daggerheart is in alpha and was crash tested at Gen Con this year.
For comparison I'd say MCDM THCF is in pre alpha, and Tales of the Valiant is in post alpha pre beta.
@@LeRodz Saw the video thumbnail, didn't watch. Other reviews have been faintly positive. Criticisms include that it seems geared for short campaigns than long-term play and that it borrows _Blades in the Dark_ basic mechanics but doesn't include the interesting ones.
(BTW, I have seen Candela Obscura in stores, so it's definitely out.)
Candela Obscura is out and its ok at best. Kind of slapped together.
Daggerheart has been tested at a couple of conventions, still a long way off. Has a card game element from what I've read, but its still a long way off.
Eorth looking at ruins of symbaroum
Nah, better get the original Symbaroum. Better rules.
Am building a game with a similar focus to mcdm. With the main mechanic being a lack of turns, allowing everyone to be doing something all the time.
It has come along great but I would say the biggest problem right now is the gm has a lot to manage
ToV: if you love DnD to the bones but hates wotc
DC20: if you love DnD hate Pf2e but like the 3 actions system
MCDM: if you miss DnD4e and like an follow up from it.
I'm following only DC20 out of those and it seems to me like an attempt (hopefully successful) to take the best from 5e (simplicity especially to start, advantage/disadvantage system, class progressions), 4e (martial/caster split, combat maneuvers, "once per combat" tricksies), Pf2e (3/4 action system, talents for character specialization, "bat the DC by 5") and the White Wolf Storytelling-type games (skill challenge system applicable to combat scenarios where full combat is impractical, dots of mastery).
I think once it's "finished enough", it will become my favorite system for campaign-style games (because for one-shots, it's the simple, action-based and cinematic Wu-Shu system).
The comparison between MCDM's game and DnD4e seems a bit weak. Yes, it's 'tactical' and intended to be played on a grid... but lots of people played 3e and 5e that way too. I'd guess a determined group could manage to 'theater of the mind' MCDM if they really hated grid play. The biggest complaints about 4e were that the class mechanics were all identical, and their effort to not include default setting left the class and race descriptions feeling very dry and mechanical. They were certainly the least 'fun to read' D&D books in some time. MCDM's game, tho, has different resources and abilities for each of their very flavorful classes, and their samples for Kickstarter included very nice inspiring text to make you want to play a dwarf or a tactician.
I wouldn't call MCDM a D&D like system it is not a D20 system.
2d6 is pretty odnd tho, and the always hit mechanic has been seen in many an osr system as well.
Also, it is explicitly a replacement for your other d20 system, so that seems fair.
Thanks for commenting! You can certainly define it that way but I think they're going for the same crowd and type of experience, so I would personally group them as similar.
Using a D20 is not what makes a game a D&D like system. It is a game where you roleplay a character in a fantasy setting that makes it like D&D. They are targeting exactly the same audience.
With Hasbro flushing out the talent from WotC, I think you can expect to see several more innovative products being developed.
The key is not to be "D&D: The Sequel," but something that stands as a separate game that has the same appeal
If I wanted to play 5e, I'd just play 5e. TftV seems pretty lame, and like a *somehow* less developed version of that.
The other RPGs are at least trying to be their own thing and I have a LOT of time for that. Worth mentioning Daggerheart as well in my opinion!
the dungeon coach explained that he ran out of money to develop DC20
I was worried that was the case. Are you able to link me that?
@@Wiz_and_Pippy it was in one of his many Tuesdays livestreams, so sorry but I can't.
Orko!
As much as I love seeing 3rd parties achieve any level of success, MCDM made ~ 3 million. ToTV made less than half that. WOTC purchased DNDB alone for $146 million. We need to understand that nothing is going to top WOTC, and no one should be trying to. It would be like trying to replace Amazon, you just won't. However, you can still achieve a measure of success by showing people that D&D is not the only option available when it comes to fun RPGs.
Correct, for better or for worse.
I find it hard to believe that TotV will have any legs after the Kickstarter, especially when it will be competing with One DnD. Most of these games are described to new players as “It’s like Dungeons and Dragons… etc,” because of the huge brand power that DnD holds. The DnD movie and the huge success of BG3 only reinforces that.
I'm very curious about MCDM and DC20.
ToV leaves a bad taste in my mouth. For all the talk about WotC, KP's business practices seem worse, but since they are smaller no one cares. I never went fishing for anything about them, but would run into staff members at GenCon who would tell me how toxic the workplace its. I'd see a marketing position posted that pays less than half the national average. Picking up a 3rd Party Content book, I was excited for the spell options and ideas, just to the same Guidance-styled spell written 6 different times but with a different modifier. But they count all of them for the "100 New Spells!"
So to see their push into their own system just being 5e with the numbers filed off is disappointing and massively on-brand.
Only feels worse when they admit that is the plan.
Crown and skull?
Personally I am excited for TOV. Most of the people I run games for want to play 5e but they are pissed at WoTC and no longer want to support them. ToV is perfect for this. Its 5e with some cool changes and I can support my favorite 3rd party publisher.
TBH there aren't any dnd killers. No matter what you feel about WotC or dnd, realize the majority of people who play dnd aren't even paying attention to controversies, they're just playing the game and will continue to play it, and aren't considering switching. DND is now the Taco Bell of TTRPGs. Everybody buys it because it's everywhere, they know what it is and there's no reason to take a chance on a corner taco stand.
WotC will never get another nickel from me, but there aren't enough of us to put the last nail in WotC's coffin because the majority of players - even the ones paying lip service to switching - will ither forget any controversies once a new edition comes out, or they never cared (or know) about controversy to start with.
I just picked up the alpha for $0.50. He must have lowered the price. Glad he did cause no way im spending 15 for an alpha lol
I think it’s really too soon to say anything about these systems. We can’t really judge their viability until we get a full release. I also feel we simply need to see more rules for most of these systems. If these systems require the same amount of homebrew as 5e does to function, I don’t see them as compelling variants.
I worry that the market for “DnD alternatives” will be saturated, if it isn’t already. How many DnD alternatives can the market support, and how will the number of new systems affect the ability of players and DMs to find games? Realistically, I think it’s unlikely all (or even most) of these projects will succeed, but perhaps 1-2 will. I’m cautiously optimistic, certainly we’re seeing some innovative designs stem from all this.
Ironically, people moving away from 5e and upcoming 5.5 may hurt small creators the most. If you have professionals, funding, and clout, you can afford to launch your own system. If you’re a small team, your audience is being fragmented.
Well thought out! There is a lot of nuanced discussion to be had about the games that seem to be coming out in the wake of the OGL. As far as I know, most of the folks making their own games have an understanding that they are going to be trying to take a tiny bite out of the overall TTRPG market - but if they do get enough of a fraction of a percent, they actually can stay afloat! Not necessarily rolling in riches per se, but afloat.
To me it seems like TTRPGs do benefit from people centralizing to a small amount of system(s) as then there are plenty of players and discussions sharing a common experience. But there has to be some sort of critical point where it invests too much of the market in one company. This is also a different but related discussion as to why D&D beyond opening up for 3rd party creators is a mixed bag in my eyes.
The splintering of the market is potentially a negative thing for 3PP. They benefited from publishing material under the OGL for a game (5E) that has a near monopoly on the TTRPG market.
KP for example, used to be a PF1 producer, but when 5E became a juggernaut, they moved to 5E, because that is where the players (and therefore $) were. Wasn’t Paizo even planning to begin a 5E compatible line?
By producing their own games, these 3PP may generate an audience of their own, but we’ll see. In the meantime, smaller 3PP will find smaller market segments to sell into.
DC20 is going to be the best of the three from what I have been seeing. Cannot wait for the kickstarter to drop next summer.
People keep trying to make a better D&D by reinventing the wheel instead of, you know, just fixing what's wrong with 5e.
PF2e or bust
Hey there's certainly room for PF2e, but I didn't comment on it in this one as I was focusing on ones that we learned about in the wake of the OGL debacle!
@@Wiz_and_Pippy understandable. That said, paizo has gone out of their way to remaster pf2e since the OGL event to remove all OGL reliant wording. Pf2e is also technically a free option since everything, from rules to character creation is online for free if people don't want to sink money into something new out of fear of it being bad.
To be fair, MCDM isn't trying to be D&D. Only time will tell how it's supported. These companies don't have hasbrobux so it's a mix of market share and community reception. There's space for lots of different RPGs but D&D is the coke of TRPGs. Cokes great, but there are lots of other options out there for whatever flavour your prefer.
I think lots of people love 5e because they haven't experienced a good session in other systems. It's not bad, but I have played many different games like this, 5e seems basic and slow and clones are boring.
Mcdm isn't the most consumer friendly tbh
I'm in the market for a new game. I tried pathfinder and didn't liked it.
Judging from these comments, I'll have to look at a whole bunch of other systems and make a follow up so hopefully you'll find your favorite future game soon!
I think Pathfinder 2e Remaster would have been another good comparison
I nearly did but I felt PF2e was well established and the remaster was a whole different beast that it needed to be its own video.
so DC20 is just taking stuff from Nimble like action points? Nimble speeds up 5e and addresses the problems so you don't have to buy a load of new books
None of these games is even coming close to "trying to 'kill' D&D"! Fuck, at least one of them isn't even using the same dice system!!! I am REALLY fucking tired of hearing the term "(insert thing here) Killer".
I don't homebrew, so these systems are all useless to me. I would need them to come out with prepublished campaign books. If they did that, then I would become interested.
They are all class/level games which is kind of disappointing. Class/level was the reason I left D&D in the first place after playing RPG's for 40+ years. Well, I wish them well.
I was on board with DC20 until they mentioned the Advantage system. Advantage is easily one of the worst aspects of 5e for me personally, and making it stack won't fix my issues with it. I think it was Treantmonk who said that you can keep spending AP to give yourself multiple instances of Advantage and guarantee a success, which is wrong. Each roll is still as likely to fail, it's just that you do more rolls. So stacking Advantage is not a fix for the Null State during combat encounters, it can make it worse in some cases.
I'll say the advantage design is meant to encourage the player to do more than just move and attack- such as working together or using an ability. The fix for the null state is something else, which is essentially combining the attack roll and damage roll, removing the null and creating degrees of success. I hope that makes sense! Both the MCDM RPG and DC20 are trying a similar approach on this as of now.
"Cinematic" isn't exactly something I find appealing. Sounds like Marvel capeshit.
For me, DC20 and ToV are so derivative of 5e that there isn't anything really new that they offer that you couldn't just homebrew into your existing 5e game.
MCDM RPG, however, is something new. It's basically a modern D&D4e game that sheds all of the unnecessary vestigial elements and clearly has a very well-defined game direction. If it's what it promises to be, it will appeal to players looking for a fast yet mechanically crunchy combat-focused TTRPG.
Honestly MCDM if it delivers is literally everything I want in a game
@sunfish5938 100% the same. I was working on designing my own TTRPG, but I think I can take a break.
Olde Swords Rule. Totally free, with all the good things from 5E but without the superhero nonsense. Easy to play and great for Old and new school guys that don't like MMORPG simulators like 5E, MCMD, etc.
Ah yes, because you have to play an mmorpg style game to be as cool as say, King Arthur or one of the knights of the round table, Heracles, Chu Chu Lain, or any number of martially adept heroes from mythology.
@@jeromeace1282 No, you don't need to. But in 4E, 5E and Featfinder you "start" as those heroes, in real D&D you become One. That's a key difference. Also Arthur was inferior to Lancelot and many knights of the round table were not superhéroes. Heracless was a Demi God, like Chu Chu Lain. Most greek mythology heroe's were Demi gods, the equivalent of moderno day superheroes. And they don't shoot unlimited "lásers" or radiation spheres from their fingers.
If you want to Talk about Conan, Fafhrd, Grey Mouser, Moongloom, Elric or Corum, they become great héroes but they are not there from the begining. In Featfinder, 5E, MCDM, 4E and similar Games you start as a "Teen Titan" before becoming a full member of the Justice League. For that I play old Marvel Superhéroes, Champions, better suited for the superhero genre and without MMORPG mechanics (passive perception, second wind, short rest, long rest, multiple death saves for snowflskes, etc.)
@@ricardojuanlopeznaranjo6651 not really. Only casters get to be as cool as their mythological counterparts naturally.
Martial DnD characters have to rely on borrowed power from magic items to reach such a level. And sure not all the knights were super completely gonzo, but at least one has stories involving him straight up ripping trees out of the ground and throwing them like javelins.
But you put that in dnd and people like you complain about how it's too anime.
Besides, "real" DnD isn't about playing king Arthur. It's about retiring to the stronghold you built and playing his heir/squire/vassal once you get to that point.
Its also kind of funny how the idea of not wanting to play a dirt eating peasant means you want to play an mmo.
@@jeromeace1282 false. Arthur was not great without Excalibur, Achilles needed to be invulnerable to beat others, Heracles wore Nemea's Lion pelt to protect himself, Perseus used 3 magical items, etc.
Also with multi Attacks, weapon masteries and other powers (Paladins and Rangers have their own skills) martial characters can be tougher than any spellcaster, as they have a límites number of spells (or a chance to fail casting, depending on the rules) and cant even use those powers if they are hit before casting them. Something not so rare, as swinging a Sword or thrusting a spear is faster than casting a spell.
@@jeromeace1282 5E, 4E and Featfinder are MMORPG emulators. Its not good or Bad, its just It. And Critical Scripted Roll and Vox Machina are superhero shows, where everyone is playing a human, with or without Cosplay. As gnomes, elves, half elves, goliaths and humans, all behave the same. With a gnome being a "womanizer" even with his very small dick LOL.
Literally everyone I know has left 5e for C&C...I don't think the revised books will bring them back.
I didn't know about DC20 and honestly it doesn't sound appealing. The Dungeon Coach (in my opinion of having run 5e for years) has shown a pathetic lack of system mastery for 5e which he seems intent on offering "solutions" to. And arranging a paid alpha, which could be described as a scam, doesn't make me more confident in his ability to deliver. MCDM and Kobold Press both have decades of industry experience, expansive and knowledgable staff, what does DC20 have?
My understanding of them is that they are basically just 5E "recentclones" - different enough to escape legal problems, but they bring nothing really new to the hobby.
I think there's similarities between 4th edition D&D and the MCDM rpg, but it's almost completely different from 5e in philosophy. It's more similar to something like recent Xcom games. They also want combat to get more exciting the longer your day goes instead of starting with cool powers and then resting after every fight to get spell slots back. I honestly don't know about the other two, but writing them off without knowing anything seems short sighted.
@@edwintaylor6891 Not sure if you're saying I'm being short sighted, or that you would be by writing them off. All I'll say is, as for me, nothing I've seen so far has sold me. Your mileage may vary.
I think you can say that about ToV, but not so sure about the other two. We'll have to see, nothing wrong with building on good ideas!
I Mean
1) BG3 is a over-rated game with clearly having massive issues and flaws something i doubt anyone of its fans disprove, Released unfinished lied about 17k endings the story realy isnt all the good drop content like the evil playthough and such
2) Pathfinder and a number of other game companys are doing FAR better then the D&D Fan boys care to admit
so yeah there doing good / well
D&D These days pretty much suck ass with a toxic biased incompetent community good luck proving me wrong.
Thanks for commenting! The dramatic irony that you complain about a toxic community while being toxic yourself isn't lost on me lol!
Ah Yes Gotta turn it around and be toxic right back, I Mean Manipulate lie some more? You ask how are these communitys doing I pointed out some simple statements you respond with OMFG YOUR A TROLL! Go Figure thats what D&D 5E Fans do claim victim when faced with FACTS
seems legit hyprocrit@@Wiz_and_Pippy
Lets face it the fact you gotta respond and taunt / troll just shows how immature of a statement you made You ask questions get answers get butt hurt over it make up random statements / manipulate / troll
thus pretty much proving my point that fan boys like you do tend to just rage at anyone/eveyone who points out any flaws in said statement what so ever and tuant/troll in respond
I didnt originaly insult you or any one in specific just named a generazation but with your comments yeah no you deserve to be called a hyprocrit, Let me guess your a BG3 Die hard fan boy mad upset coz you know that game is a over-rated pos? 17k endings please prove it? Faithful to BG1-2? Released unfinished with cut story elements and what knock? Na Fuck it taunt troll more insult? Coz thats all you can do? Na Lets see block mute ignore harass or something like that? Na you wont ever admit you where wrong at all not even REMOTELY
Heck lets take it one step lets say I Legit insulted you personaly in my opening post and claim Wiz_And_Pippy your a fool your a w.e insult you thought i made towerds you! Kool, Your responce is to reply being toxic and a troll right back at it then? ROFLMAO! Hyprocrit :D and thats a FACT br0 thanks for proving me wrong now if you dont mind dont got time to waste on immature kids like you who have to manipulate/troll/insult/intimidate to get what you want, best you just delete coz thats all you got going for you.@@Wiz_and_Pippy
sounds like all a matter of taste. sorry you cant enjoy something because the mainstream does
you do know thats super vague? Coz more people are enjoying Diablo 4 then BG3, i guess by your logic that makes D4 a better game?
Soft locks? Hard Locks? Save File curroption memory leaks? Na ignore all that just be toxic and troll? K :D
@@logickedmazimoon6001
D&D will outlast all of these. Its hardly the first time someones tried to make a better version of D&D and people are still playing D&D...
This. Games that are like D&D 'but different' are called Fantasy Heartbreakers.
There have been many, there will be more. D&D endures.
@@simonfernandes6809a heartbreaker is a d20 fantasy game that fails because it never gets off the ground and finds no audience. Games raising, let’s look at MCDM for an example, millions in two days are not a heartbreaker.
It’s not about killing d&d, it’s about creating a healthier ttrpg ecology with a large number of diverse games so that people can have all kinds of fun experience instead of everyone being beholden to hasbro shareholders and the 70’s game’s weird mash of legacy and modern design.
I love d&d and have had many amazing times playing it, but I’m also really excited about being able to play other games that do different stuff. The world is not black and white you can have one or the other and nothing in between.
D&D is not a perfect game or eternal. Even with all its legacy status and history, D&D has come close to dying out multiple times.
Late Era TSR almost killed the game by fracturing the market with competing settings and subsystems with zero play testing or editing. The only thing that saved D&D was WotC swooping in, buying TSR as it was dying, and using Magic the Gathering money to fund the creation of 3e, 3.5, and an endless number of splat books.
Then WotC almost killed D&D with 4e. They cut all the ties they had with the company that was pumping out 3.5 accessories and magazine content, and that company turned around and made Pathfinder. A 3.5 clone that killed 4e. To this day, you'll find some 4e defenders, but never a significant number of them. Hell, the number of Pathfinder simps who spam "You should try Pathfinder!" in literally every D&D video is a testament to how close D&D came to death.
5e production itself was a series of minor miracles and dumb luck. The D&D team at WotC was whittled down to about a half dozen people in the final days of 4e. Crawford, Perkins, and Merles got the chance to develop one final trio of core rulebooks. A legacy set that WotC could close the D&D door on. They made a simplified version of the game full of their favorite elements taken from older editions. It sold surprisingly well for a dying brand.
Then Critical Role and Stranger things happened, and D&D was back on the map. The 5e books started selling well enough that WotC started developing adventures in-house instead of sub contracting out to Green Ronin and others. In all honesty, if Matt Mercer had decided to stick with Pathfinder or try a better D20 system like Numenera/Cypher System instead of switching to 5e for their first stream on Geek and Sundry then no one would be talking about D&D today.
@@CitanulsPumpkin then what chance do any of these clones have? ill stick to d&d thanks
None of these are even close to what D&D was about or how it was played. 3e all the way up through 5e are completely different games with the D&D label slapped on them. These alternative ttrpgs are even further.
Well yeah? Games change and evolve. The original versions have their virtues, but are bogged down by the fact that it was the first game of its kind ever and was basically a bunch of ad hoc rules put together, making for a lot of clunky design.
Modern games like Shadowdark can deliver on the feel of particular aspects (in that case, old school dungeon delving) while also just being more smoothly designed games.
To actually answer your question though, the vast majority of D&D players started with 5e, so why wouldn't the focus of this sort of thing be aimed at them? To them this is what the game is.
There are already plenty of forks of old school D&D anyways (OSE, DCC, etc)
@jeromeace1282 ose is an exact replica of B/X. D&D. It is a good system and plays exactly like D&D was meant to be played. It is a word for word replica. I have that system and love it. Evolving is fine but completely changing a game like wotc did isn't cool. 5e isn't anything like TSR D&D. It isnt what made D&D great. Its a skewed and narrow version that was inspired by D&D.They should have left it alone and not labeled they're versions D&D. The majority of D&D players started with TSR and continue to play. 5e isn't capable of delivering the experience of playing the original versions, it's a totally different game. I've added all the nice modern mechanics that modern systems use, ascending armour and the like to TSR D&D. It is easier to learn and play than 5e. I like 5e for what it is, but calling it D&D wasnt the answer. Plenty of companies have taken ownership over games and kept them the same. Didn't drastically change them like wotc did. Nothing in the TSR versions bog it down. THAC0 was an option. Also adding ascending armour class makes it run just as smooth as any modern ttrpg. Plus all versions of TSR were completely compatible and interchangeable. Also written so that a 10 year old could learn it.
@@pewprofessional3181 I'm going to preface it by saying there's nothing wrong with continuing to play the game you fell in love with. But games changing and evolving on any meaningful level (as opposed to just adding on house rules to the same game) 100% means changing fundamental aspects thereof.
As for WotC changing the game, keep in mind, designers want to design things. The TSR devs wanted to change the game for 2e (as in, design an actual system from the ground up and not the kluged together mess that original dnd was) but it was the money people in charge not wanting to rock the boat that resulted in 2e being basically the same game.
So when WotC bought TSR, the designers finally had their chance.
Also, if THAC0 was only an option, what did you use if you didn't want to use it?
And hard disagree. Everything about any version (except maybe 4e's but I don't know much about it) of dnd's spellcasting is anything but smooth to use. Given the video games I play, I don't mind weird, obtuse, esoteric design, so I honestly don't mind dealing with vancian casting that much, but it sure isn't easy to explain to others and isn't nearly as easy to keep track of your spells as something like warhammer fantasy's roll to cast system.
@jeromeace1282 i totally respect your view. I started D&D with 5e btw. Then discovered TSR. The spell system in TSR is so much simpler. 1st level= 1st level spells and how many you could cast. Too easy. That's it. Im still confused by 5e spell system lol. ThAC0 ws an option in all editions. They used a hit chart layed out on everyone's character sheet. Roll d20 and that is the AC you can hit. Way too easy. I just ordered 2e core books and am amazed at how simple the system works. No homebrewing necessary other than just switching to ascending AC, which is also very simple. 5e challenges your character sheet. TSR challenged the players themselves. You weren't stuck looking at your character sheet like 5e players do. Also, there weren't all these skill checks like I 5e. Everything you can do in 5e, you can do in TSR D&D. You had your ability scores. And if you wanted to do something that required a roll, the DM would determine what ability that would fall under. There was no going into a room and saying "I want to do a perception check". You described what you were doing and if you did it well you may not need to roll a dice. It was very much more engaging as if you were there. You weren't looking t your character sheet. Lots more Role play. Plus you weren't superheros like in 5e. 1st level 5e fighter is still more powerful than a 5th level TSR fighter, which required 16,000 xp to attain that level, and 3,000,000xp just to get to 20th level. Other editions went higher in levels.
@pewprofessional3181 I'm currently playing with a group of older guys who never played any version of the WotC D&D games only original and advanced D&D. I told them about some of the recent changes and updates and they got excited and wanted to try 5th edition. We've been playing for a year now and they've never suggested going back once. Just saying.
Long before the DC20 game began development I felt uneasy about dungeon coach and some greedy financially-focused tendencies. I was an early subscriber and really enjoyed his early youtube videos but unsubscribed after a while. It is disheartening but not surprising to see him monetize his game testing. I hope the game is great and that he gets successful enough that he can look past the dollars and cents.
They are just DnD, but with character specific resource, and shitty rules that miss crucial parts of stuff you need to know, like what happens when you die/get injured, or how carrying things or whatever works.
Honestly just home brew your game, it will be the same or better cause this shit ain't worth your time, especially how poorly designed/located the rules are. You can't find shit.
Not sure if you are speaking on all of them or a specific one but at least for DC20 it is still in Alpha. It is expected that it will need updating.
DC20 also has death and dying rules. It is called deaths door and the Dungeon Coach has made a whole video about. I don't think any encumbrance rules have been made as he wants to get the core of how the player characters work before designing other things. Of course that is part of being an alpha and encumbrance rules, economy/gear prices, and other things will probably be developed based on how the characters are designed so everything can mesh together smoothly.
Thank you for commenting! Unsure if you mean a specific one of the three or all of them, but I know not everyone cares about stuff like carrying or lingering injuries. Not every RPG is for everyone nor for every type of game, and that's okay!
Wow none of these games sound interesting in the slightest a shame.
What kind of game are you looking for?
@@Wiz_and_Pippy a resource based game with lots of rules for exploration when it comes to dungeon diving. It should be kind of like a combination of AD&D when it comes to exploration and mapping and dungeon diving and 5e's intended design of limited resources that are used throughout the day. You know the 6-8 random encounters a day that, when actually done, makes players actually feel endangered.
@@lordmew5 You want a survival game. There's a fair few of those out there, mostly under the 'OSR' banner. Dungeon Crawl Classics and Five Torches Down might appeal to you.