I paid $12 in '93 to ride up in a DC-3 carrying skydivers up to see if I wanted to try diving myself. Also for the fact that I knew how historical the DC-3 was. I think the pilot cruised about 120 knots and then slowed to about 90 when they jumped from the plane. After they jumped the pilot invited me to sit in the co-pilot seat and when I went into the cockpit he was flying with his arm out the window like a farmer driving his truck down the road so I did the same, lol. That particular skydiving place had several accidents and rarely flew the DC-3 after that so I was very fortunate to get a chance to not only ride in one but, sit in the 2nd seat. I'm not a pilot but, love the channel and your explanations.
A few observations (from a couple of thousand hours, captain C47s) This was not so much a rudder problem (although that can bite severely), this was a premature unstick problem. As you say, the control column is held full forward, until a flying speed is reached - to pin the aircraft to the runway. You cannot allow a premature lift-off, as you saw from this accident. (In other words, you get the tail up to STOP the wing flying. You cannot have the wing flying, before she is ready to lift.) Regards comment from the captain that the co-pilot was applying forward pressure too early. Utter nonsense. The control column should be held hard against the instrument panel from the first application of power. That tail ain’t going to lift unless you have a 40 kt headwind, and even it it does, the C47 cannot tip on its nose. I did see a C47 ding the pitot tubes and the propeller-tips in a nose-tip, but that was due too much braking. Also, you do not achieve engine-out flying speed at take-off. This is a Performance-X aircraft. - not Performance-A - the V2 decision is only achieved once the gear is up, because at max wt you are going nowhere if the gear will not retract. So the normal solution is if an engine quits prior to gear-retract, you have to put it down again. Also, on landing as soon as the main wheels touch, you push the control column forward onto the instrument panel, as you saw with the South African C47 landing. This stops any bounce, and you cannot tip her over - not possible. And even if you wanted to hold off (which would be highly inadvisable) you cannot 3-point a C47. Simply not enough elevator authority, especially when fully laden. Note: the C47 can be a real beast to the unwary. Most new pilots cannot even taxi the thing. It is always interesting to see pilots transition from complete inexperience-incompetence, to landing safely in a 25 kt crosswind, in approx three to four months of commercial flying. P
Fantastic info. After landing, do you keep the column forward until the tail comes down on its own, or do you bring it down gently before it stalls down?
@@mytech6779 As the plane slows, it'll stall. The lift of the tail is the only thing keeping it in the air, and the airflow over it is the only thing creating that lift. The question is, will it come down nice and smoothly, like on most little planes, or will it come down fast and bounce?
Max Take-off weight take-off calls for max power against brakes (column in your stomach). The moment the brakes are released the column must go into the instrument panel to get the tail off the ground as soon as possible. Anyway that was the way we were taught in the South African Air Force many years ago. It worked for me.
Greetings ! I was trained in Bloem in 82 . Flew the DAK until 85 ( lots of border duties ) then left the SAAF for an airline career ( B747 ) and retired in 2020. I loved that aircraft and I feel the SAAF gave us the best training in the world !
I Flew the DC-3 (C-47) in Vietnam. One CAN encounter a problem on landing (or even takeoff, for that matter,) IF there is a strong quartering tail wind (i.e. wind from the rear). When that happens the big vertical tail surface, in that back, acts like a rudder with REVERSE command. In other words, during the landing rollout, normally when the pilot pushes the right rudder pedal down, the aircraft will turn right and vice-versa for the left. BUT....In a left quartering tail wind, if the pilot, pushes the right rudder pedal down...the aircraft turns LEFT! Explanation: The BIG vertical tail presents a larger surface, when the right pedal is depressed, to a left quartering tail wind,. As a result there is more force placed on the tail, from the wind, and that force tends to act as a torque to rotate the aircraft to the LEFT (instead of what the pilot THINKS should happen)OR... In other words, the tail acts like a big weather vain and rotates the aircraft in the OPPOSITE direction from the rudder pedal depression! Scary, if one does not anticipate that response. The pilot doesn't know "WHAT the hell" is going on. The fix: When the aircraft is in the landing rollout, or even still on the ground, during takeoff) the yoke must be brought back all the way, almost into the pilot's stomach. He then has to "bicycle pedal" the rudders to determine WHICH pedal depression will give him the response he's looking for. Don't know if the description above was a factor in this accident...but it may be one thing to consider. A lost engine, on takeoff, just makes the situation WORSE!
Tough life Juan-- Ride your motorcycle to the airport , fly the Luscombe, meet some flyin friends ,play music , fly your 777 to Narita and eat fresh SUSHI , and get paid 😳🤴
Juan - as a newly minted CFII I will be saving your walk around of the Mighty Luscombe/DC3 video in my bag of tricks to help explain AOA and stalls. This was so great. Thanks so much!
Juan - it's not correct to state the the rudder is 'blanked out' in a tail low condition. The DC-3 rudder is effective as soon as you release the brakes. There is plenty of airflow from the engines at all times. The main reason to raise the tail on take-off is to prevent the aircraft getting airborne at too low a speed. The DC-3 will get airborne well below Vmc if the tail is not raised. This is what happened here - airborne at too low a speed and excessive control inputs caused what looks like an aileron stall.
Some more background info. Depending on how it's loaded - the DC-3 may require a lot of forward pressure on the yoke to get the tail up. I recall needing to push hard with both hands to get the tail up. We had a rule that if the tail wasn't up by 60 knots we had to abort the take-off. There is a lot of P factor as the tail comes up/down. Aircraft will want to go left on take-off as the tail comes up and right on landing as the tail comes down.
@@ericjanson2328 Loving the information! I have a question, if I may. What causes that left pull on take off and right on landing? Is it a characteristic of the airframe design or a slight difference in power between the two engines (unlikely) ? I am quite curious of this. Thank you in advance! 😎
@@digitalchaos1980 @Super Hiro Since no one has answered you yet: P-Factor is the tendency for an aircraft to yaw to the left due to the descending propeller blade on the right producing more thrust than the ascending blade on the left. This occurs when the aircraft's longitudinal axis is in a climbing attitude in relation to the relative wind. "This can occur in climbs, during the landing flare (and in power-on landings), in slow flight, or in tail-dragger airplanes." - Airplane Academy "Taildraggers or planes with “conventional” landing gear will experience P-factor during the takeoff roll, unlike most tricycle gear airplanes." - Airplane Academy "This is because the propeller is naturally tilted up due to the low tail wheel." - Airplane Academy "Remember to make good rudder inputs during your takeoff roll in taildraggers. Luckily, taildraggers usually have large, effective rudders which can counteract strong left turning tendencies, even at low airspeeds." -Airplane Academy However, from what I've learned, it will cause the aircraft to Yaw to the left even on the landing because the blades will pitch back to where the right side is creating more thrust than the left as the tail comes down (high angle of attack). What eric was referring to sounds like "Negative P-Factor" and is usually only felt during descent or Negative AOA. I am not rated for any aircraft yet but am going through ground school for my PPC. Source: airplaneacademy.com/aircraft-p-factor-explained-with-pictures-and-video/
Blancolirio, you are good. The DC-3 is an incredibly forgiving aircraft. That the C-47 recovered from that spin with a single revolution does not surprise me. The skydivers were negligent. When you line up, particularly if putting people out on the skin,, you don't snooze. You get it done and you get out of there. Also the congregation around the door. No, you line up with face on the guy's rig in front of you, everyone ,usually, with left foot forward to begin a synchronized exit, stretching up the center line of the aircraft. I blame the skydivers for that milling cow situation. I have spotted dozens of times,, exited DC-3s and C-47s hundreds of times, sat the right seat once (for just a few minutes, pilot had to take a leak). Your footage of the Springbok pilot was a thing of beauty. And your description was far beyond my knowledge. I learned something today. Thank you. You have taught me so much and so many times. I appreciate your knowledge. I hope I am so fortunate to be your passenger some day.
@@markthompson4885 yeah that's not how skydivers work in the civilian world - what you saw in the DC3 footage is completely standard ops for them regardless of aircraft type
Even though it sounds like they didn't really break any rules, it does seem like caution was not taken when it came to how the pilot had no seat time with a dc3 let alone a heavy dc3. Thanks again for your excellent coverage of aviation news Juan.
Agreed, it seems like an odd choice of timing to let the less experienced pilot handle a take off, which he was unfamiliar with, while hauling passengers. If it wasn't a training flight, (which it wasn't), without passengers, he should not have been pic, (bad call by the crew.)
jep, this tiny little remark made my day! (And the performance actually wasn't that bad BTW) -> reminds me of the "who watches til the end" contests...
Watch the beatles sing ticket to ride, on ed sullivan....real music...from a real decade. Music was cool...cars were cool...and even the cops were cool, I know, cause I was 9 years old in 1965, and the 60s can't be beat....🎶"I think I'm gonna be sad...I think it'd todayyyy yeahhh🎶" anyway thanks for the tail dragger schooling, never flew one, but good insight.
I made my license on taildragger TMG with tandem landing gear and I remember how difficult was for me to learn propper rudder handling as I made very heavy inputs at beginning and not adjust them after tail wheel comes from the ground. It takes a lot of time and my instructor nerves to teach me this. And this was at light low power airplane, cant imagine the heavy and powerfull DC3. Thanks Juan for nice explanation.
I don’t understand the hypocrisy in demonetizing this channel when plenty there is content with air crash investigation and break downs with information including many incidents where no passengers survive. Informal and educational videos with content creators such as Juan Brown who has the credentials to speak on these matters in ways others can’t.
It seems that the guy was signed off on before he was ready as suggested by the check ride comments. I don't hear anyone taking responsibility for that. To me, that's more concerning than the crash itself.
You make a great point. Let's not forget safety first, not training revenue.. This guy had no business in the left seat. Thank God everyone survived, beautiful plane destroyed.
What I heard was that the weight and weight distribution of the accident flight was far different that any configuration that the PF had experienced in training.
When the FO said he had not flown at gross weight, the PIC should not have asked him to to the take off at all. and most training does not cover gross wt and/or aft CG actual experience in training regardless of the FARs or Check ride.
@@raybankes7668 Then there is something lacking here by the checker or required "standards" for being checked on the type. Being type rated shouldn't just mean a bare level of proficiency in some phases of operation, it should mean demonstrating proficiency in all aspects of operating the aircraft. Signing this guy off without even demonstrating competency to take off within normal operating limits of the aircraft lead to a major accident and hull loss. I'm amazed the bloke at the end of the video just casually dismisses any involvement in this outcome, citing that the FAA "doesn't require it". Speaks volumes.
@@MrRem7600 The instructor's attitude also shocked me. I would have expected him to say something to indicate that he recognized the training he gave was incomplete and he is working to do better in the future. Instead, he just passed the buck. Surely an instructor has a responsibility to ensure that they really believe the student is safe to fly the aircraft, rather than just ticking a bunch of boxes for required items. It doesn't sound like he learned anything from his mistake.
Thank You for taking the time to explain the technical aspects of "wash out and wash in". I now get the picture of stall characteristics much more clearly and the why as to how the stall occurs and where the buffet comes from. GREAT info for me as I am still a student pilot and feel the more I understand aerodynamics the better I can understand how to fly and why we do what we do when we fly and train. Many thanks.
Just wanted to thank you, man. You keep all of us at United/LAXMM informed. We always start the shift checking out what is new on your channel. Oh yea, and always remember...do all your cabin write ups AFTER takeoff! Namaste, Brother
I had a friend who was a pilot for Northeast Airlines, flying DC-3's. He had the right temperament for the job. Calm, meticulous, attentive. He went on to work as an air traffic controller in the Boston center. I flew in DC-3's on Northeast Airlines, and also on United Airlines, between Salt Lake and Elko. I always enjoyed my flights in the DC-3, but I can see that you really have to know what you're doing, to handle the characteristics of the type. If you lose focus, the DC-3 will fly you.
That bass strum. ❤. Defeating cancer. Teaching, showing and encouraging aeronatutical saftey. Even before Petey get's in a plane... that little chap has extremely complex training and awareness thanks to Juan. The vids of motor trail across US, the camera work, the time just sharing and putting together the knowlege in an age/world where 30 seconds waiting for a coffee is an offence! Does Juan even have any weakness? Blancolirio doesn't. Keep doing what you do sir.
To think that guy had 4,000 hours in the DC-3 and still said that to a noob. The interviewee at the end of the recording is right, this endangers the FAA exemption for ridehoppers. - I was in the cockpit of that aircraft one day in the hangar about a year before the crash. I was surprised how little they knew about it when I asked a relatively simple question. OK, the pilot wasn't there that day, but it doesn't inspire confidence about how much they know about these war birds. The DC-3 is said to be a dream in the air, but like any plane its characteristics during takeoff and landing are critical. The FAA should require takeoffs at full load before type-certifying a pilot.
The co-pilot should have never been signed off. Tail draggers are beasts if you don't have a lot of experience. "Good attitude" means nothing. One must know how to fly the aircraft in all configurations--or at least the one they are flying. The pilot who signed him off is responsible for this great loss. RIP Blue Bonnet Belle.
Back in the 70s there was a bad Lodestar stall / crash with skydivers...too many at the back trying to exit out a small door...long fuselage didn't help. Great report Juan!
My sweetheart is a thirty-three-year-old Medevac pilot, here in the US. He's type-rated on the Embraer 145. He currently flies a Pilatus pc-12 and a Beechcraft King Air. I met him about six months ago and I am officially obsessed with aircraft. I knew nothing about planes or flying before. I just found your videos and I love the expertise!!! You seem like a pretty awesome guy. Thanks for making your channel ♡♡♡
The crash is tragic, hope everyone recovers ok, and Juan your coverage is spot on as usual. We need to get better at this, or these old planes won't be flying anymore. Completely agree of course about getting that tail up early. It's not intuitive, but it's so much better than trying to fly the plane off the deck 3 point. Watching the video, I kept asking myself "why isn't the tail up?". One thing I'd add, though, was the lack of coordination between pilots. I think the left seat guy is at fault here, too. From the description, the right seat guy was unsure of his skills. If I'm left seat, and I hear that, I'm going to either say "why don't I fly this one, and you follow me on the controls", or "you fly it, but I'll be with you on the controls and if things get weird I'll take over". Because during takeoff is a really tricky time to do a control handoff, especially tailwheel. The left seat guy let the plane get to a point where he couldn't recover it, or his recovery was incorrect, clearly. I'm not saying this to beat anyone up, just to suggest that CRM requires some coordination beforehand. Like most, this crash didn't have to happen.
Something that is apparently no longer taught is the use of differential power to help with longitudinal control at slower speeds in the DC-3. That was taught during WWII, with higher powered light bombers, and is effective in the DC3 as well as the C-46. I successfully employed the technique once in a DC-3 take off in 1983. I’ve seen it successfully employed by a C46 takeoff in Laredo as well. We often flew at really high gross weights and aft CG, 26000, lbs +. We never pinned the yoke immediately on takeoff, to avoid unnecessary drag and protect the elevator from damage on unimproved runways. Unlike a 777, that airplane requires a degree of feel, vs purely by the numbers. 50 kts was the go/no go for the tail to fly. If it didn’t you would abort because of too aft CG, or too heavy, over 31,000 lbs. That happened to me once, in 1982. Training on DC-3’s these days is too much like training in a Champ or a Luscombe. You must stay ahead of the mass, with the controls. Asymmetric thrust can be your friend, if managed properly, from brake release on the ramp, until parking again.
Great ending. That video of the DC - 3 doing a power-on stall was scary. That pilot must have had all the heavy handed counter moves. I spun a Cessna 150 once (major stupidity). All the reflexive control inputs had no effect until I realized what had happened. Then I remembered the spin recovery technique from the training manual. OK- forward yoke, neutral aileron, opposite rudder - problem solved. At that point I called it a day and flew directly back to the airport. I learned about flying from that. I never did it again. I notice that spins are "prohibited by owner" in the Cessna 152. I am currently grounded - medical. I fly right seat with friends on rare occasions. You're never too old to learn. Right ? That was an outstanding video, Juan.
@@timjones7547 At the FBO where I flew there was an instructor called Paul The Stall. Oddly, I never had him for an instructor. I had the base hothead. Sometimes a bit of reading can make a difference - trust me. Glad you lived to tell your story another day. I hope your CFI debriefed about that incident. Happy landings !
UPDATE-This video has been De-Monetized by the staff at TH-cam. Thank you for your support on Patreon for making this content possible. www.patreon.com/user?u=5295000&fan_landing=true Without your support on Patreon I would not have the patience to put up with the children who run TH-cam who continue to run Ads on MY De-Monetized content and take ALL the proceeds! Juan UPDATE: De-Monetized by TH-cam- "Edited video gameplay with some clips that focus on graphic violence; moderate violence that shows blood; dead bodies prepared for burial or shown in historical events like wars, as part of a non-educational video" "This video is running limited or no ads due to content identified as not suitable for most advertisers. It remains fully playable and is eligible to earn subscription revenue from TH-cam Premium." "After review, this video has been confirmed by manual review as not suitable for most advertisers. It remains fully playable and is eligible to earn subscription revenue from TH-cam Premium."
It might help if you made it more clear that everyone escaped without major injury, both in the title/description and earlier in the video. TH-cam reviewers probably only have time for a quick skimming overview.
YT certainly employs a lot of oversized children, but I also agree with mytech that the order of the video edit should put the "nobody died" and technical/educational discussion more upfront to help mitigate those of lesser cognitive strength.
I have never flown a more docile twin than the DC3. It's slow forgiving and lumbering. He must have worked hard to crash this AC. Then again it was a CAF. Great report on the check pilot. 100% correct.
@@aquaticllamas28 Was thinking same. Same as if you can afford a yacht or a super car but can't afford the mechanic and maintenance, you can't afford the car. Or the house or the plane or being a pilot or the trophy wife. Basically the cost of anything is generally more than the initially perceived cost. If you only have a million dollars and the car of your dreams costs a million dollars, don't buy the car.
Absolutely! I don't think ANYONE who doesn't get the training and the reinforcement from continuous flight experience...can be allowed or can afford to fly.
The same can be said for so many government capital projects. It's easy to get the money to build something and have the politicians with the big smile for the ribbon cutting, but try to get a nickle to maintain it. I'm a mechanical engineer on the shop floor. Every project has to consider the "life cycle " cost before it's approved. That's the up front capital. That's the labour to run it. The maintenance. And the utilities and other parts
It's all covered in the tailwheel training, but it must feel a little weird to push the stick/column forward to get the tail up,and then back to actually take off.
It is weird. The first time you do it, single engine plane of course, you're worried about a prop strike. But in most planes a prop strike is impossible, the tail just won't come up high enough. And a potential problem is that in some tailwheel planes you can safely take off in a three point stance. Just let the plane fly up. Some people teach it that way, but I always found it uncomfortable. Instead, I learned "tail up" as soon as possible, to improve control and visibility, as Juan showed on the video. Granted, my flights are all on little planes, but it's the same procedure.
Maybe better to say it feels weird initially, because it's counter-intuitive. As is pushing forward as a reaction to lack of lift. Both are counter-intuitive, but both become, or should become automatic responses. It is standard procedure to bring the tail up. But some pilots do bring the tailwheel up, but low, putting the wing at an AOA suitable for takeoff and let the plane fly up on it's own, or maybe more accurately keeping the controls neutral and letting the tail come up on it's own. That's not great technique, and it's dangerous in cross wind, but I've seen pilots do it, and even teach it. My point is that I agree with dance, that a lot of tailwheel flying, and flying in general, isn't intuitive, seems weird, and requires training. Bad habits that you can get away with in some aircraft can bite you in others.
@@k9killer221 Tail lift isn't an indication that you're close to minimum take-off speed. You can lift the tail on many aircraft in 20 feet or less, as the tail stall speed is normally much lower than the wings. The main reason to get the tail up, besides visibility, in the planes I fly is that it keeps the plane on the ground before it's ready to fly. Having one wing start flying while the other is still stalled, because of a cross wind, is a fairly lousy situation. I'm not advocating keeping the tail down! Quite the opposite. I'm just saying that there are people flying tailwheel out there that do it, and it's a bad habit. (I'm glad this discussion didn't devolve into the wheel/3-point landing thing...) :)
I have 800 hours in Beech 18s. That is a really short coupled light twin airplane with a max gross weight of 12,500 pounds, as I recall (37 years ago for me). The rudder dance necessary to keep it from ground looping, especially with a crosswind landing, exactly matches Juan's description of using a boxing rhythm. For me, it was kind of a twitchy experience, because you were never quite sure what it would do next. You needed really fast reflexes. It wasn't hard, once you figured it out. The trick was to NEVER let it get much out of alignment with the runway, once on the ground. If you let it go too far, it was an automatic ground loop. I never ground looped one, but I was in the cockpit for a couple of scary close calls with another pilot flying. In the Beech 18, the gear were very wide for the length of the airplane. 16 feet apart. Another pilot did loop one, going off the runway. He reported that he wound up sideways, skidding to a stop in the sand, off the runway. The wide gear preventing the wing from contacting the ground. Sand was thrown up in the air, showering the airplane. The DC-3 is much bigger and longer, and as I understand it, far less prone to ground looping. Still, I'm sure with that airplane, too, if it goes too far one way or the other, you'll loop it (on the ground).
What he have here folks is a takeoff stall followed by a spin to the right and then a “Secondary Spin” to the left which was aggravated by the “P-factor”, Torque, spiraling slipstream, and I’m guessing the pilot might have relaxed his RH rudder pressure when the plane started spinning to the right. All in all, you guys are correct and I believe both pilots failed by lack of ADM skills, piloting skills, and the Captain should’ve performed the takeoff rather than let the “new guy” try it while barking out commands. What a circus! They should have never let the plane get so close to stalling or even flying speed or V-1 speed without the tail up and flying in the clean air. What a lesson to be learned here. Anyone arguing this or not understanding this has absolutely no business flying a DC-3. There’s way too many pilots emphasizing trimming for “hands free flight” and then letting the plane fly them! I can see that from the beginning of the takeoff, both the PF (pilot flying) and the PM (pilot monitoring ie: the guy who suggested not trying to get tail up too early), were both riding as passengers, all the way to the crash. Also, I do believe that during an aft CG takeoff in a DC-3, if you aren’t able to get the tail off/up, early in the takeoff roll, it will become increasingly difficult to raise the tail as the main wing starts making lift and is taking weight off the mains. I don’t think they even had a chance in preventing a stall at that point. And yes, I just watched the video again and at the point just before liftoff and even up until the brief spin to the right and then left, there was not even a single attempt to get the tail up and flying. There was only neutral and/or up elevator deflections, and no down commands. It’s as if the PF was either completely dumbfounded or was thinking he wanted some kind of “3 point” takeoff. Maybe these planes should not be flown by volunteers if this is what we get? Can easily tell that they lifted off well below Vmc speed. Had they lost either engine, the roll (spin) would’ve been worse and probably would’ve been no one but witnesses to tell the story. :-(
Those skydivers got a hell of a thrill ride out of that ride. It's surreal even on 90s' tape to see the aircraft falling below the skydivers, I can't imagine what that was like in person. That and being sucked out of the plane lol, really lucky no one smacked the tail on their way out.
Though putting people and rare airplanes in danger is unacceptable, you don’t really get the experience of a vintage aircraft by looking at it in a museum. I hope they continue to fly, but more safely.
The analogy of a boxing match is great. My instructor told me to kick the rudder like riding a bicycle. That was in a Cub, so it didn't need large inputs, but they should be crisp.
Many years ago I made several sport jumps from a DC-3. All the seats were removed, the aft door removed and then loaded with about 40 skydivers (can't remember the exact number). We flew to 15,000 feet where we all stood up and started marching toward the door trying to get as many out the door as fast as we could. I remember that as we marched toward the door at the tail of the aircraft it felt like walking on a trampoline as the tail bounced up and down with all the weight of the jumpers shifting about. I can imagine it must have felt very unsettling in the cockpit.
Heartbreaking incident. Excellent report. Gotta pop the tail wheel. The Commemorative Air Force crew when I flew on That's All Brother in March of 2019 really knew what they were doing. I could follow the takeoff roll: Roll, tail wheel goes up, roll on main gear, and liftoff. The reverse upon landing. Perfect! The best part: The characteristic drone of those Pratt & Whitney 1830s. Beautiful sound!
The CAF has had a long and sad history of destroying historic classic aircraft (B-26, A-20, CASA HE-111, etc.) Glad that everyone got out. Wonder what was learned here?
Juan, you and Dan are right the problem is inadequate training. During WW2 Thousands of relatively young and inexperienced pilots were trained to fly this air plane by the military and most of their flights were with very heavily loaded air planes. If this was an air plane issue it would have been discovered right away.
There was good reason in days gone by that airports had tri-runways. I can still hear my instructor in the 8KCAB yelling in the intercom "ALL the stick, ALL the stick". LOVE the music add on.
Juan, over on Twit.tv they were talking about the TH-cam de-monetization issue and I saw at least 3 ads in less than 4 minutes at the end [I watched the ending separately this morning, the last 5 inutes] . I always look forward to your videos, thank you.
Fascinating stuff for a lifelong warbird fan who first flew in a DC-3 before he was ten. What a sad loss of airframe but so relieved everyone got out. “Our hero Dan Gryder” - hasn’t aged terribly well!
Juan, I picked up your channel here during the Camp fire series. My office is at McClellan Park so I see much of the traffic coming in an out as out loading dock backs up to the tarmac within 50 fee by the tower. Not only do I appreciate your knowledge but your passion is conveyed to your viewers, for some of us in real time as Blancolirio world headquarters is about 30 miles north of my location. Keep on keeping on good sir. Merry Christmas and happy landings!
Well luckily there are plenty of them in museums for you. Operation of these aircraft is incredibly complex and while maintaining a perfect safety record is every operators goal, there will always be risks when you’ve got big engines, tail draggers, etc
My local airplane museum is constantly getting calls from "flying museums" trying to either buy their warbirds, or buy all the spare parts they can get their hands on. So too many more crashes, and they probably won't be in museums any more either.
The "Surprise Ending" of the year: Podcasts, 2020. Wonderful explanations & footage, all around- to include that skydiving section- no idea how I missed that one. Special hat-tip to Paul Spencer, for clarifying a couple points that confused me.
Well covered, Juan. I felt like I was watching an NTSB report that was just the highlights. But, 3 to 4 hours is a little tough to just watch in one sitting. Thanks for the Readers Digest report and the silly Ticket to Ride cover! HA!
10:50 Beech Barons, have a very similar wing design (Long, tapered, constant-cord wing) and similar power-on stall characteristics. Also the Baron like the old Cessna 401s looses a lot of vertical stab effectiveness at high-angle of attack. I ended up doing an stall-spin in a B-55 Baron during VMC training once when I could not apply full right-rudder due to the heel of my right foot being restricted by a sheet metal cover below the rudder peddles. My instructor barked "FULL RUDDER!" and abruptly planted his #12 boot on the right rudder, and the induced yaw caused the right wingtip to instantly stall, and the what ever airflow remained over the vertical stab to separate, and with full power on the right engine, even with abrupt full-down elevator the aircraft yawed violently left and rolled inverted. We did just what the DC-3 did in the video but and managed a similar recovery, but with only a few hundred feet to spare. Much appreciation on this one Juan as the content here is life-saving.
There is a fascinating BBC program about an RAF fast jet pilot learning to fly a spitfire. The first thing they did was put him in a DC3 because it is a tail drager. He found it very different and the training pilot was hilarious yelling at him to fly it properly. He flew the spitfire beautifully due to his DC3 flights, superb training and RAF background. Here in the UK airshow flying has been seriously curtailed after one idiot decided to fly an old hawker hunter into the ground killing several people but not himself! The restrictions will be permanent because quite rightly our Civil Aviation Authority cannot risk another incident. You will have the same problem in the US if you are not careful.
Loved the show. After watching the entire 7 months or so with, Plane Savers, I feel a whole new appreciation for the DC3. My first real interaction was with Shawnee Airlines in the mid 70's when I started working at PBI. Ironically, when getting my A&P, my practical was with the jug of the DC3-1800. AND, haven't touched one since!!! So I enjoy watching anything on this AC. This was a sad deal. Sure have to wonder just how heavy that ass end was!!! Keep it up, another great vlog. BTW, neither of you should quit the day job... But loved the ending, it's fun.
This was very informative. I saw a DC3/C47 ground loop at Oshkosh a few years back. It's very unnerving when a plane that big turns off the runway an points in your direction (fortunately, it was stopped by a ditch). Maybe this was an issue there too. Fortunately, since they didn't lift off like this they didn't crash. That was a good explanation of wash out too, interesting how Luscombe used compression strut adjustments for that on wood wings. If TH-cam demonitizes you, why is it OK for them to run ads on your videos?
This is a bit like getting your drivers license without any night driving, without wet weather driving, without a big trailer going down a steep hill....etc etc. Inadequate training is all around us. Like Dan said.... it's just not required...but it should be!
I’m glad everyone got out, I wish the entire crew a speedy recovery. The loss of this DC3 breaks my heart. I was lucky enough to have taken a 30 minute flight on one over the Superstition Mountains in Arizona. It was the most pleasent flights I’ve ever had before! The video of the DC3 landing is incredible in how long it keeps the tail flying. This is one well designed plane!
Thanks again Juan for your in-depth yet completely understandable commentary. I learned a bunch!!!! But I had forgotten what a studied bass fiddle player you were.. ;-) Awesome video ending to a tragic aviation accident.
Apologies to Lennon/McCartney... I love it! Wasn't that bad actually as an old muso myself. Great detailed update as usual. Subbed to Dan's channel. Cheers!!!
Glad everyone made it out alive! Great video Juan. Really liked the Ticket to ride at the end. Good times sitting around with a buddy picking out some tunes. Time to get my old Gibson out and do some picking myself. 😊
The lesson being that a checkride isn't representative of airmanship or ability in a wide variety of situations, weights, conditions, etc. Airmanship and judgment require experience that no training program in and of itself can provide.
@@hackerf15e A training program isn't able to give students experience in every possible situation. However it should be required to give students experience in situations that are known to occur, situations like flying the plane with its normal load and flying it from the right seat. Sounds like the type rating in this case is woefully inadequate. To my way of thinking it seems like this pilot was only qualified to conduct ferry flights of a pretty empty airplane...
There's a large difference between performing to minimum standards on the checkride, and being able to safely perform under a variety of much more challenging conditions of real world operations. Given the experience level of the mishap FO, and his difficulties with directional control during his first two rides with the unit, what I see is the PIC having made an error to disregard well the established practice of having the freshly minted crewmember perform as pilot flying for the first leg or two. Give him an opportunity to see what a heavy takeoff actually looks like. Overestimating both your proficiency as a check pilot, while underestimating the speed at which the other guy can screw things up, has destroyed a lot of airplanes. There's a time and a place for generosity. The first flight outside of training and checking, in a previously unseen environment (Heavy) isn't the place.
I had friends that were on this skydiving DC-3 incident at Salado, TX. Lots of rivets popped on that flight. Needless to say, they were flying it again that afternoon. Took both pilots to get it out of the developed spin and subsequent dive. Still had many skydivers onboard for the descent. They couldn't get out due to the forces.
Did anyone else notice that Dan’s shirt was inside out? I want to mentally reach a state where I could leave the house (and be in a TH-cam video!) and not give two $hits about which way my clothes are on. Well done, sir.
Took off in ground effect and immediately stalled! I think of those WWII Gooney-Birds towing gliders. That took some flying skill! Glad everyone survived this accident!
30 years later, I can still hear my instructor tell me "Fly the airplane, dont let it fly you"... Just like it was yesterday. These guys were just along for the ride....
I paid $12 in '93 to ride up in a DC-3 carrying skydivers up to see if I wanted to try diving myself. Also for the fact that I knew how historical the DC-3 was. I think the pilot cruised about 120 knots and then slowed to about 90 when they jumped from the plane. After they jumped the pilot invited me to sit in the co-pilot seat and when I went into the cockpit he was flying with his arm out the window like a farmer driving his truck down the road so I did the same, lol. That particular skydiving place had several accidents and rarely flew the DC-3 after that so I was very fortunate to get a chance to not only ride in one but, sit in the 2nd seat. I'm not a pilot but, love the channel and your explanations.
I absolutely LOVE the "Apologies" to Lennon and McCartney!!!
Glad everyone came out if the accident alive.
With the initial chord progression on guitar,
I thought they were gonna break into "Gloria".
i approve this message,
A few observations (from a couple of thousand hours, captain C47s)
This was not so much a rudder problem (although that can bite severely), this was a premature unstick problem. As you say, the control column is held full forward, until a flying speed is reached - to pin the aircraft to the runway. You cannot allow a premature lift-off, as you saw from this accident. (In other words, you get the tail up to STOP the wing flying. You cannot have the wing flying, before she is ready to lift.)
Regards comment from the captain that the co-pilot was applying forward pressure too early. Utter nonsense. The control column should be held hard against the instrument panel from the first application of power. That tail ain’t going to lift unless you have a 40 kt headwind, and even it it does, the C47 cannot tip on its nose. I did see a C47 ding the pitot tubes and the propeller-tips in a nose-tip, but that was due too much braking.
Also, you do not achieve engine-out flying speed at take-off. This is a Performance-X aircraft. - not Performance-A - the V2 decision is only achieved once the gear is up, because at max wt you are going nowhere if the gear will not retract. So the normal solution is if an engine quits prior to gear-retract, you have to put it down again.
Also, on landing as soon as the main wheels touch, you push the control column forward onto the instrument panel, as you saw with the South African C47 landing. This stops any bounce, and you cannot tip her over - not possible. And even if you wanted to hold off (which would be highly inadvisable) you cannot 3-point a C47. Simply not enough elevator authority, especially when fully laden.
Note: the C47 can be a real beast to the unwary. Most new pilots cannot even taxi the thing. It is always interesting to see pilots transition from complete inexperience-incompetence, to landing safely in a 25 kt crosswind, in approx three to four months of commercial flying.
P
Very happy to read the real take on this from someone that has experience.
Fantastic info. After landing, do you keep the column forward until the tail comes down on its own, or do you bring it down gently before it stalls down?
@@tomsmith3045 I don't think the tail could stall down as it is basically at zero AoA when the tail is up.
At what point after touchdown do you pull back to counter braking moment or is normal braking force only dependent on the main gear to cg moment?
@@mytech6779 As the plane slows, it'll stall. The lift of the tail is the only thing keeping it in the air, and the airflow over it is the only thing creating that lift. The question is, will it come down nice and smoothly, like on most little planes, or will it come down fast and bounce?
That DC-3 spin was the most fascinating thing I’ve seen.
Max Take-off weight take-off calls for max power against brakes (column in your stomach). The moment the brakes are released the column must go into the instrument panel to get the tail off the ground as soon as possible. Anyway that was the way we were taught in the South African Air Force many years ago. It worked for me.
Greetings ! I was trained in Bloem in 82 . Flew the DAK until 85 ( lots of border duties ) then left the SAAF for an airline career ( B747 ) and retired in 2020. I loved that aircraft and I feel the SAAF gave us the best training in the world !
I Flew the DC-3 (C-47) in Vietnam. One CAN encounter a problem on landing (or even takeoff, for that matter,) IF there is a strong quartering tail wind (i.e. wind from the rear). When that happens the big vertical tail surface, in that back, acts like a rudder with REVERSE command. In other words, during the landing rollout, normally when the pilot pushes the right rudder pedal down, the aircraft will turn right and vice-versa for the left. BUT....In a left quartering tail wind, if the pilot, pushes the right rudder pedal down...the aircraft turns LEFT! Explanation: The BIG vertical tail presents a larger surface, when the right pedal is depressed, to a left quartering tail wind,. As a result there is more force placed on the tail, from the wind, and that force tends to act as a torque to rotate the aircraft to the LEFT (instead of what the pilot THINKS should happen)OR... In other words, the tail acts like a big weather vain and rotates the aircraft in the OPPOSITE direction from the rudder pedal depression!
Scary, if one does not anticipate that response. The pilot doesn't know "WHAT the hell" is going on. The fix: When the aircraft is in the landing rollout, or even still on the ground, during takeoff) the yoke must be brought back all the way, almost into the pilot's stomach. He then has to "bicycle pedal" the rudders to determine WHICH pedal depression will give him the response he's looking for. Don't know if the description above was a factor in this accident...but it may be one thing to consider. A lost engine, on takeoff, just makes the situation WORSE!
Tough life Juan--
Ride your motorcycle to the airport , fly the Luscombe, meet some flyin friends ,play music , fly your 777 to Narita and eat fresh SUSHI , and get paid 😳🤴
Its quite literally what I dream of, amazing isn't it?
Apart from the flying bit
Sign me up too
Juan - as a newly minted CFII I will be saving your walk around of the Mighty Luscombe/DC3 video in my bag of tricks to help explain AOA and stalls. This was so great. Thanks so much!
Juan - it's not correct to state the the rudder is 'blanked out' in a tail low condition. The DC-3 rudder is effective as soon as you release the brakes. There is plenty of airflow from the engines at all times. The main reason to raise the tail on take-off is to prevent the aircraft getting airborne at too low a speed. The DC-3 will get airborne well below Vmc if the tail is not raised. This is what happened here - airborne at too low a speed and excessive control inputs caused what looks like an aileron stall.
Great info.
Some more background info. Depending on how it's loaded - the DC-3 may require a lot of forward pressure on the yoke to get the tail up. I recall needing to push hard with both hands to get the tail up. We had a rule that if the tail wasn't up by 60 knots we had to abort the take-off.
There is a lot of P factor as the tail comes up/down. Aircraft will want to go left on take-off as the tail comes up and right on landing as the tail comes down.
@@ericjanson2328 Loving the information! I have a question, if I may. What causes that left pull on take off and right on landing? Is it a characteristic of the airframe design or a slight difference in power between the two engines (unlikely) ? I am quite curious of this. Thank you in advance! 😎
@@ericjanson2328 what causes the torque steering?
@@digitalchaos1980 @Super Hiro
Since no one has answered you yet:
P-Factor is the tendency for an aircraft to yaw to the left due to the descending propeller blade on the right producing more thrust than the ascending blade on the left. This occurs when the aircraft's longitudinal axis is in a climbing attitude in relation to the relative wind.
"This can occur in climbs, during the landing flare (and in power-on landings), in slow flight, or in tail-dragger airplanes." - Airplane Academy
"Taildraggers or planes with “conventional” landing gear will experience P-factor during the takeoff roll, unlike most tricycle gear airplanes." - Airplane Academy
"This is because the propeller is naturally tilted up due to the low tail wheel." - Airplane Academy
"Remember to make good rudder inputs during your takeoff roll in taildraggers. Luckily, taildraggers usually have large, effective rudders which can counteract strong left turning tendencies, even at low airspeeds." -Airplane Academy
However, from what I've learned, it will cause the aircraft to Yaw to the left even on the landing because the blades will pitch back to where the right side is creating more thrust than the left as the tail comes down (high angle of attack). What eric was referring to sounds like "Negative P-Factor" and is usually only felt during descent or Negative AOA.
I am not rated for any aircraft yet but am going through ground school for my PPC.
Source: airplaneacademy.com/aircraft-p-factor-explained-with-pictures-and-video/
Blancolirio, you are good. The DC-3 is an incredibly forgiving aircraft. That the C-47 recovered from that spin with a single revolution does not surprise me. The skydivers were negligent. When you line up, particularly if putting people out on the skin,, you don't snooze. You get it done and you get out of there. Also the congregation around the door. No, you line up with face on the guy's rig in front of you, everyone ,usually, with left foot forward to begin a synchronized exit, stretching up the center line of the aircraft. I blame the skydivers for that milling cow situation. I have spotted dozens of times,, exited DC-3s and C-47s hundreds of times, sat the right seat once (for just a few minutes, pilot had to take a leak). Your footage of the Springbok pilot was a thing of beauty. And your description was far beyond my knowledge. I learned something today. Thank you. You have taught me so much and so many times. I appreciate your knowledge. I hope I am so fortunate to be your passenger some day.
As a former paratrooper you are right about the chinese fire drill at the door. the last two jumpers didn't make it out until after spin recovery.
@@markthompson4885 yeah that's not how skydivers work in the civilian world - what you saw in the DC3 footage is completely standard ops for them regardless of aircraft type
So many nuggets of wisdom about the DC3 here, I think I'll watch it again.
OMG! That cornball over the hill gang "Ticket to Ride" bit was just the tension reliever I needed for my 2020 bad news syndrome depression.
Sometimes ya just gotta have an out.
Even though it sounds like they didn't really break any rules, it does seem like caution was not taken when it came to how the pilot had no seat time with a dc3 let alone a heavy dc3. Thanks again for your excellent coverage of aviation news Juan.
Agreed, it seems like an odd choice of timing to let the less experienced pilot handle a take off, which he was unfamiliar with, while hauling passengers.
If it wasn't a training flight, (which it wasn't), without passengers, he should not have been pic, (bad call by the crew.)
@@siamsamblue30041 Ye olde "common sense" vs "what's required"
I hate to be "that guy", but it seems like the safety culture at the Commemorative Air Force is "Meh, load the paying customers, we'll fix it later".
"Ticket to Ride".
Hilarious.
Thank you Juan
Apologies to🤣
"Apologies to McCartney/Lennon".....cracked me up! LOL!
Totally agree!!
But it was actually pretty good!!
jep, this tiny little remark made my day! (And the performance actually wasn't that bad BTW)
-> reminds me of the "who watches til the end" contests...
Thanks for the ending treat guys!!, Y'all really knew how too make em laugh😂..."not bad"
Watch the beatles sing ticket to ride, on ed sullivan....real music...from a real decade. Music was cool...cars were cool...and even the cops were cool, I know, cause I was 9 years old in 1965, and the 60s can't be beat....🎶"I think I'm gonna be sad...I think it'd todayyyy yeahhh🎶" anyway thanks for the tail dragger schooling, never flew one, but good insight.
I made my license on taildragger TMG with tandem landing gear and I remember how difficult was for me to learn propper rudder handling as I made very heavy inputs at beginning and not adjust them after tail wheel comes from the ground. It takes a lot of time and my instructor nerves to teach me this. And this was at light low power airplane, cant imagine the heavy and powerfull DC3. Thanks Juan for nice explanation.
The end of this video are two friends living their best life. Love it
I don’t understand the hypocrisy in demonetizing this channel when plenty there is content with air crash investigation and break downs with information including many incidents where no passengers survive.
Informal and educational videos with content creators such as Juan Brown who has the credentials to speak on these matters in ways others can’t.
Yes regrettably TH-cam is a rather horrible platform that way
It seems that the guy was signed off on before he was ready as suggested by the check ride comments. I don't hear anyone taking responsibility for that. To me, that's more concerning than the crash itself.
You make a great point. Let's not forget safety first, not training revenue.. This guy had no business in the left seat. Thank God everyone survived, beautiful plane destroyed.
What I heard was that the weight and weight distribution of the accident flight was far different that any configuration that the PF had experienced in training.
When the FO said he had not flown at gross weight, the PIC should not have asked him to to the take off at all. and most training does not cover gross wt and/or aft CG actual experience in training regardless of the FARs or Check ride.
@@raybankes7668 Then there is something lacking here by the checker or required "standards" for being checked on the type. Being type rated shouldn't just mean a bare level of proficiency in some phases of operation, it should mean demonstrating proficiency in all aspects of operating the aircraft. Signing this guy off without even demonstrating competency to take off within normal operating limits of the aircraft lead to a major accident and hull loss. I'm amazed the bloke at the end of the video just casually dismisses any involvement in this outcome, citing that the FAA "doesn't require it". Speaks volumes.
@@MrRem7600 The instructor's attitude also shocked me. I would have expected him to say something to indicate that he recognized the training he gave was incomplete and he is working to do better in the future. Instead, he just passed the buck. Surely an instructor has a responsibility to ensure that they really believe the student is safe to fly the aircraft, rather than just ticking a bunch of boxes for required items. It doesn't sound like he learned anything from his mistake.
Thank You for taking the time to explain the technical aspects of "wash out and wash in". I now get the picture of stall characteristics much more clearly and the why as to how the stall occurs and where the buffet comes from. GREAT info for me as I am still a student pilot and feel the more I understand aerodynamics the better I can understand how to fly and why we do what we do when we fly and train. Many thanks.
Just wanted to thank you, man. You keep all of us at United/LAXMM informed. We always start the shift checking out what is new on your channel. Oh yea, and always remember...do all your cabin write ups AFTER takeoff! Namaste, Brother
I had a friend who was a pilot for Northeast Airlines, flying DC-3's. He had the right temperament for the job. Calm, meticulous, attentive. He went on to work as an air traffic controller in the Boston center. I flew in DC-3's on Northeast Airlines, and also on United Airlines, between Salt Lake and Elko. I always enjoyed my flights in the DC-3, but I can see that you really have to know what you're doing, to handle the characteristics of the type. If you
lose focus, the DC-3 will fly you.
Excellent commentary, sad to lose another historic aircraft. Thanks for the insight & Ticket to Ride!
That bass strum. ❤. Defeating cancer. Teaching, showing and encouraging aeronatutical saftey. Even before Petey get's in a plane... that little chap has extremely complex training and awareness thanks to Juan.
The vids of motor trail across US, the camera work, the time just sharing and putting together the knowlege in an age/world where 30 seconds waiting for a coffee is an offence!
Does Juan even have any weakness? Blancolirio doesn't. Keep doing what you do sir.
Very lucky!
Juan, your aviation knowledge never ceases to amaze me. I would fly with you any time.
"If you ca.n taxi it; you can fly it". Well, not really.
Yet the pilot did the Taxi, then handed it over to the Co Pilot.
Perhaps, this is more of a guideline than an actual rule...?
To think that guy had 4,000 hours in the DC-3 and still said that to a noob. The interviewee at the end of the recording is right, this endangers the FAA exemption for ridehoppers.
-
I was in the cockpit of that aircraft one day in the hangar about a year before the crash. I was surprised how little they knew about it when I asked a relatively simple question. OK, the pilot wasn't there that day, but it doesn't inspire confidence about how much they know about these war birds. The DC-3 is said to be a dream in the air, but like any plane its characteristics during takeoff and landing are critical. The FAA should require takeoffs at full load before type-certifying a pilot.
The co-pilot should have never been signed off. Tail draggers are beasts if you don't have a lot of experience. "Good attitude" means nothing. One must know how to fly the aircraft in all configurations--or at least the one they are flying. The pilot who signed him off is responsible for this great loss. RIP Blue Bonnet Belle.
@@markuswx1322 got that right can't say it any better,.
Back in the 70s there was a bad Lodestar stall / crash with skydivers...too many at the back trying to exit out a small door...long fuselage didn't help. Great report Juan!
My sweetheart is a thirty-three-year-old Medevac pilot, here in the US. He's type-rated on the Embraer 145. He currently flies a Pilatus pc-12 and a Beechcraft King Air. I met him about six months ago and I am officially obsessed with aircraft. I knew nothing about planes or flying before. I just found your videos and I love the expertise!!! You seem like a pretty awesome guy. Thanks for making your channel ♡♡♡
We have a saying in the texas hill country. "It's called Burnet durnit." Its pronounced burn it.
Burnet , durnit, ... learn it !
The crash is tragic, hope everyone recovers ok, and Juan your coverage is spot on as usual. We need to get better at this, or these old planes won't be flying anymore. Completely agree of course about getting that tail up early. It's not intuitive, but it's so much better than trying to fly the plane off the deck 3 point. Watching the video, I kept asking myself "why isn't the tail up?".
One thing I'd add, though, was the lack of coordination between pilots. I think the left seat guy is at fault here, too. From the description, the right seat guy was unsure of his skills. If I'm left seat, and I hear that, I'm going to either say "why don't I fly this one, and you follow me on the controls", or "you fly it, but I'll be with you on the controls and if things get weird I'll take over". Because during takeoff is a really tricky time to do a control handoff, especially tailwheel. The left seat guy let the plane get to a point where he couldn't recover it, or his recovery was incorrect, clearly. I'm not saying this to beat anyone up, just to suggest that CRM requires some coordination beforehand. Like most, this crash didn't have to happen.
Something that is apparently no longer taught is the use of differential power to help with longitudinal control at slower speeds in the DC-3. That was taught during WWII, with higher powered light bombers, and is effective in the DC3 as well as the C-46. I successfully employed the technique once in a DC-3 take off in 1983. I’ve seen it successfully employed by a C46 takeoff in Laredo as well.
We often flew at really high gross weights and aft CG, 26000, lbs +. We never pinned the yoke immediately on takeoff, to avoid unnecessary drag and protect the elevator from damage on unimproved runways. Unlike a 777, that airplane requires a degree of feel, vs purely by the numbers.
50 kts was the go/no go for the tail to fly. If it didn’t you would abort because of too aft CG, or too heavy, over 31,000 lbs. That happened to me once, in 1982.
Training on DC-3’s these days is too much like training in a Champ or a Luscombe. You must stay ahead of the mass, with the controls. Asymmetric thrust can be your friend, if managed properly, from brake release on the ramp, until parking again.
The crew of the DC 10 that landed or crashed in Iowa sure knew thank goodness
Great ending. That video of the DC - 3 doing a power-on stall was scary. That pilot must have had all the heavy handed counter moves. I spun a Cessna 150 once (major stupidity). All the reflexive control inputs had no effect until I realized what had happened. Then I remembered the spin recovery technique from the training manual. OK- forward yoke, neutral aileron, opposite rudder - problem solved. At that point I called it a day and flew directly back to the airport. I learned about flying from that. I never did it again. I notice that spins are "prohibited by owner" in the Cessna 152. I am currently grounded - medical. I fly right seat with friends on rare occasions. You're never too old to learn. Right ? That was an outstanding video, Juan.
Spun a Cherokee 140 doing power-on stalls. My instincts to recover all wrong. Glad the instructor was with me.
@@timjones7547 At the FBO where I flew there was an instructor called Paul The Stall. Oddly, I never had him for an instructor. I had the base hothead. Sometimes a bit of reading can make a difference - trust me. Glad you lived to tell your story another day. I hope your CFI debriefed about that incident. Happy landings !
When I learned to fly spins were just part of the curriculum. Glad to have the experience, but probably a good thing it isn’t required today.
Dear Lord I pray that Juan Browne never says my tail number on a TH-cam video. Great learning experience & surprise guest, also! Well done.
I was humming that tune to my wife the moment I heard the phrase.....then at the end you broke out the duet, well done! 👍
It was Juan's idea - he is always talking me into that stuff...
UPDATE-This video has been De-Monetized by the staff at TH-cam.
Thank you for your support on Patreon for making this content possible.
www.patreon.com/user?u=5295000&fan_landing=true
Without your support on Patreon I would not have the patience to put up with the children who run TH-cam who continue to run Ads on MY De-Monetized content and take ALL the proceeds!
Juan
UPDATE: De-Monetized by TH-cam-
"Edited video gameplay with some clips that focus on graphic violence; moderate violence that shows blood; dead bodies prepared for burial or shown in historical events like wars, as part of a non-educational video"
"This video is running limited or no ads due to content identified as not suitable for most advertisers.
It remains fully playable and is eligible to earn subscription revenue from TH-cam Premium."
"After review, this video has been confirmed by manual review as not suitable for most advertisers.
It remains fully playable and is eligible to earn subscription revenue from TH-cam Premium."
It might help if you made it more clear that everyone escaped without major injury, both in the title/description and earlier in the video. TH-cam reviewers probably only have time for a quick skimming overview.
YT certainly employs a lot of oversized children, but I also agree with mytech that the order of the video edit should put the "nobody died" and technical/educational discussion more upfront to help mitigate those of lesser cognitive strength.
Sad ending for a historic Gooney Bird. Thanks, Juan, for all the insights.
Wow, I appreciate your work into these videos
I have never flown a more docile twin than the DC3. It's slow forgiving and lumbering. He must have worked hard to crash this AC. Then again it was a CAF. Great report on the check pilot. 100% correct.
It sounds like you're saying, "If you can't afford training, you really can't afford to fly."
Kinda yeah, it’s sad. There are things you can do though.
@@aquaticllamas28 Was thinking same. Same as if you can afford a yacht or a super car but can't afford the mechanic and maintenance, you can't afford the car. Or the house or the plane or being a pilot or the trophy wife. Basically the cost of anything is generally more than the initially perceived cost. If you only have a million dollars and the car of your dreams costs a million dollars, don't buy the car.
Absolutely! I don't think ANYONE who doesn't get the training and the reinforcement from continuous flight experience...can be allowed or can afford to fly.
The same can be said for so many government capital projects. It's easy to get the money to build something and have the politicians with the big smile for the ribbon cutting, but try to get a nickle to maintain it.
I'm a mechanical engineer on the shop floor. Every project has to consider the "life cycle " cost before it's approved. That's the up front capital. That's the labour to run it. The maintenance. And the utilities and other parts
Yup, I realized very soon that I have to fly often to maintain my skills. There's no mistake forgiving in an aircraft.
Love the rolling shutter effect on that big ol' double bass Juan!
It's all covered in the tailwheel training, but it must feel a little weird to push the stick/column forward to get the tail up,and then back to actually take off.
It is weird. The first time you do it, single engine plane of course, you're worried about a prop strike. But in most planes a prop strike is impossible, the tail just won't come up high enough. And a potential problem is that in some tailwheel planes you can safely take off in a three point stance. Just let the plane fly up. Some people teach it that way, but I always found it uncomfortable. Instead, I learned "tail up" as soon as possible, to improve control and visibility, as Juan showed on the video. Granted, my flights are all on little planes, but it's the same procedure.
Standard procedure
If it feels weird to somebody that person isn't ready to fly the plane in anything other than more training.
Maybe better to say it feels weird initially, because it's counter-intuitive. As is pushing forward as a reaction to lack of lift. Both are counter-intuitive, but both become, or should become automatic responses.
It is standard procedure to bring the tail up. But some pilots do bring the tailwheel up, but low, putting the wing at an AOA suitable for takeoff and let the plane fly up on it's own, or maybe more accurately keeping the controls neutral and letting the tail come up on it's own. That's not great technique, and it's dangerous in cross wind, but I've seen pilots do it, and even teach it. My point is that I agree with dance, that a lot of tailwheel flying, and flying in general, isn't intuitive, seems weird, and requires training. Bad habits that you can get away with in some aircraft can bite you in others.
@@k9killer221 Tail lift isn't an indication that you're close to minimum take-off speed. You can lift the tail on many aircraft in 20 feet or less, as the tail stall speed is normally much lower than the wings. The main reason to get the tail up, besides visibility, in the planes I fly is that it keeps the plane on the ground before it's ready to fly. Having one wing start flying while the other is still stalled, because of a cross wind, is a fairly lousy situation.
I'm not advocating keeping the tail down! Quite the opposite. I'm just saying that there are people flying tailwheel out there that do it, and it's a bad habit.
(I'm glad this discussion didn't devolve into the wheel/3-point landing thing...) :)
I have 800 hours in Beech 18s. That is a really short coupled light twin airplane with a max gross weight of 12,500 pounds, as I recall (37 years ago for me). The rudder dance necessary to keep it from ground looping, especially with a crosswind landing, exactly matches Juan's description of using a boxing rhythm. For me, it was kind of a twitchy experience, because you were never quite sure what it would do next. You needed really fast reflexes. It wasn't hard, once you figured it out. The trick was to NEVER let it get much out of alignment with the runway, once on the ground. If you let it go too far, it was an automatic ground loop. I never ground looped one, but I was in the cockpit for a couple of scary close calls with another pilot flying. In the Beech 18, the gear were very wide for the length of the airplane. 16 feet apart. Another pilot did loop one, going off the runway. He reported that he wound up sideways, skidding to a stop in the sand, off the runway. The wide gear preventing the wing from contacting the ground. Sand was thrown up in the air, showering the airplane. The DC-3 is much bigger and longer, and as I understand it, far less prone to ground looping. Still, I'm sure with that airplane, too, if it goes too far one way or the other, you'll loop it (on the ground).
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Thanks Juan. As a non-pilot, I learned a lot about the DC3.
Dan is a great instructor; seen quite a few videos of him. Good to have him in this video.
What he have here folks is a takeoff stall followed by a spin to the right and then a “Secondary Spin” to the left which was aggravated by the “P-factor”, Torque, spiraling slipstream, and I’m guessing the pilot might have relaxed his RH rudder pressure when the plane started spinning to the right. All in all, you guys are correct and I believe both pilots failed by lack of ADM skills, piloting skills, and the Captain should’ve performed the takeoff rather than let the “new guy” try it while barking out commands. What a circus! They should have never let the plane get so close to stalling or even flying speed or V-1 speed without the tail up and flying in the clean air. What a lesson to be learned here. Anyone arguing this or not understanding this has absolutely no business flying a DC-3. There’s way too many pilots emphasizing trimming for “hands free flight” and then letting the plane fly them! I can see that from the beginning of the takeoff, both the PF (pilot flying) and the PM (pilot monitoring ie: the guy who suggested not trying to get tail up too early), were both riding as passengers, all the way to the crash. Also, I do believe that during an aft CG takeoff in a DC-3, if you aren’t able to get the tail off/up, early in the takeoff roll, it will become increasingly difficult to raise the tail as the main wing starts making lift and is taking weight off the mains. I don’t think they even had a chance in preventing a stall at that point. And yes, I just watched the video again and at the point just before liftoff and even up until the brief spin to the right and then left, there was not even a single attempt to get the tail up and flying. There was only neutral and/or up elevator deflections, and no down commands. It’s as if the PF was either completely dumbfounded or was thinking he wanted some kind of “3 point” takeoff. Maybe these planes should not be flown by volunteers if this is what we get? Can easily tell that they lifted off well below Vmc speed. Had they lost either engine, the roll (spin) would’ve been worse and probably would’ve been no one but witnesses to tell the story. :-(
Oh the sound of those P&W's during take-off! The only aircraft with the roar to give me goose bumps
Those skydivers got a hell of a thrill ride out of that ride. It's surreal even on 90s' tape to see the aircraft falling below the skydivers, I can't imagine what that was like in person. That and being sucked out of the plane lol, really lucky no one smacked the tail on their way out.
Juan your broadcasts are amazing. I learn things from you I didn't even know I didn't know. Keep it up my friend, you are helping us all.
Great presentation Juan. As usual, I learned some today thanks to your immense efforts and thank you for the opportunity.
Though putting people and rare airplanes in danger is unacceptable, you don’t really get the experience of a vintage aircraft by looking at it in a museum. I hope they continue to fly, but more safely.
The analogy of a boxing match is great. My instructor told me to kick the rudder like riding a bicycle. That was in a Cub, so it didn't need large inputs, but they should be crisp.
From a non-pilot fan/follower of your page, I enjoyed the tag. I didn't know that you played bass... great job!
I mean, I feel like a broken record but...spectacular stuff, Juan.
Many years ago I made several sport jumps from a DC-3. All the seats were removed, the aft door removed and then loaded with about 40 skydivers (can't remember the exact number). We flew to 15,000 feet where we all stood up and started marching toward the door trying to get as many out the door as fast as we could. I remember that as we marched toward the door at the tail of the aircraft it felt like walking on a trampoline as the tail bounced up and down with all the weight of the jumpers shifting about. I can imagine it must have felt very unsettling in the cockpit.
Good a recent updated video so thank you again.
Excellent interview with Dan on the camera also.
Heartbreaking incident. Excellent report. Gotta pop the tail wheel. The Commemorative Air Force crew when I flew on That's All Brother in March of 2019 really knew what they were doing. I could follow the takeoff roll: Roll, tail wheel goes up, roll on main gear, and liftoff. The reverse upon landing. Perfect! The best part: The characteristic drone of those Pratt & Whitney 1830s. Beautiful sound!
The CAF has had a long and sad history of destroying historic classic aircraft (B-26, A-20, CASA HE-111, etc.)
Glad that everyone got out.
Wonder what was learned here?
@Guy Incognito Ugh. Then perhaps granting exemptions to allow their use for LHFE work wasn't such a good idea?
Juan, you and Dan are right the problem is inadequate training. During WW2 Thousands of relatively young and inexperienced pilots were trained to fly this air plane by the military and most of their flights were with very heavily loaded air planes. If this was an air plane issue it would have been discovered right away.
But Dan signed is Type Cert!
There was good reason in days gone by that airports had tri-runways. I can still hear my instructor in the 8KCAB yelling in the intercom "ALL the stick, ALL the stick". LOVE the music add on.
Juan, over on Twit.tv they were talking about the TH-cam de-monetization issue and I saw at least 3 ads in less than 4 minutes at the end [I watched the ending separately this morning, the last 5 inutes] . I always look forward to your videos, thank you.
Too funny with so much going on you found a way to get me to laugh with your impromptu unplugged "Ticket to Ride" tarmack session. Good work Brownie!
Fascinating stuff for a lifelong warbird fan who first flew in a DC-3 before he was ten. What a sad loss of airframe but so relieved everyone got out.
“Our hero Dan Gryder” - hasn’t aged terribly well!
Juan, I picked up your channel here during the Camp fire series. My office is at McClellan Park so I see much of the traffic coming in an out as out loading dock backs up to the tarmac within 50 fee by the tower. Not only do I appreciate your knowledge but your passion is conveyed to your viewers, for some of us in real time as Blancolirio world headquarters is about 30 miles north of my location. Keep on keeping on good sir. Merry Christmas and happy landings!
The number of air incidents on the way to Oshkosh would be an interesting bit of data
Love that blancolirio Unplugged moment at the end. Awesome!
Great input re DC3/dakota. Loving the musical stylings at the end. Contrabass v guitar. Lush.
Destruction is a hell of a way to preserve them.
Well luckily there are plenty of them in museums for you.
Operation of these aircraft is incredibly complex and while maintaining a perfect safety record is every operators goal, there will always be risks when you’ve got big engines, tail draggers, etc
What's the point of life Mr. Geezer, no one ever gets out alive . . . enjoy your eggs.
My local airplane museum is constantly getting calls from "flying museums" trying to either buy their warbirds, or buy all the spare parts they can get their hands on. So too many more crashes, and they probably won't be in museums any more either.
thank god everyone survived. sad to see such a gorgeous plane go but at least we can be thankful there were zero casualties.
The "Surprise Ending" of the year: Podcasts, 2020. Wonderful explanations & footage, all around- to include that skydiving section- no idea how I missed that one.
Special hat-tip to Paul Spencer, for clarifying a couple points that confused me.
That was very informative gentlemen. I got a few hours in a C120 and Aeronca Champ. I've always admired the DC3. Merry Christmas guys.
Another great informative video. Jam session at the end was cool too. Hope to see more of that.
Well covered, Juan. I felt like I was watching an NTSB report that was just the highlights. But, 3 to 4 hours is a little tough to just watch in one sitting. Thanks for the Readers Digest report and the silly Ticket to Ride cover! HA!
"Ticket to ride" Don't give up your day job. LOL Keep up the great work you do here.
Welp didn’t read before I commented. You beat me to that!!!!
10:50 Beech Barons, have a very similar wing design (Long, tapered, constant-cord wing) and similar power-on stall characteristics. Also the Baron like the old Cessna 401s looses a lot of vertical stab effectiveness at high-angle of attack.
I ended up doing an stall-spin in a B-55 Baron during VMC training once when I could not apply full right-rudder due to the heel of my right foot being restricted by a sheet metal cover below the rudder peddles. My instructor barked "FULL RUDDER!" and abruptly planted his #12 boot on the right rudder, and the induced yaw caused the right wingtip to instantly stall, and the what ever airflow remained over the vertical stab to separate, and with full power on the right engine, even with abrupt full-down elevator the aircraft yawed violently left and rolled inverted. We did just what the DC-3 did in the video but and managed a similar recovery, but with only a few hundred feet to spare.
Much appreciation on this one Juan as the content here is life-saving.
There is a fascinating BBC program about an RAF fast jet pilot learning to fly a spitfire. The first thing they did was put him in a DC3 because it is a tail drager. He found it very different and the training pilot was hilarious yelling at him to fly it properly. He flew the spitfire beautifully due to his DC3 flights, superb training and RAF background. Here in the UK airshow flying has been seriously curtailed after one idiot decided to fly an old hawker hunter into the ground killing several people but not himself! The restrictions will be permanent because quite rightly our Civil Aviation Authority cannot risk another incident. You will have the same problem in the US if you are not careful.
Loved the show.
After watching the entire 7 months or so with, Plane Savers, I feel a whole new appreciation for the DC3. My first real interaction was with Shawnee Airlines in the mid 70's when I started working at PBI.
Ironically, when getting my A&P, my practical was with the jug of the DC3-1800. AND, haven't touched one since!!!
So I enjoy watching anything on this AC. This was a sad deal. Sure have to wonder just how heavy that ass end was!!!
Keep it up, another great vlog.
BTW, neither of you should quit the day job... But loved the ending, it's fun.
Thank You, Juan. Very informative. The ending was amazing!
I am so very glad to see the crew escaped unharmed it must have been an absolutely terrifying moment for them all
That's a shame. The copilot was inexperienced and overwhelmed.
Hey dude I like your Videos could you please try to explain the Switzerland Ju52 Disaster
I am asking to rule out any doubt, the accident from August, 2018?
This was very informative. I saw a DC3/C47 ground loop at Oshkosh a few years back. It's very unnerving when a plane that big turns off the runway an points in your direction (fortunately, it was stopped by a ditch). Maybe this was an issue there too. Fortunately, since they didn't lift off like this they didn't crash. That was a good explanation of wash out too, interesting how Luscombe used compression strut adjustments for that on wood wings.
If TH-cam demonitizes you, why is it OK for them to run ads on your videos?
Wow! An acoustic bass player, too. Juan's talents continue to surprise.
Very interesting from a highly trained pilot . Well done . From a fan in Qld Australia
Juan! Dan has my very same guitar! Yamaha F-335. Thank You both so much. Shiny side up. Greetings from 36S.
WARNING...."Adult language will be heard in the background..!?" Tap Dancing on the rudder pedals was clearly missing.
This is a bit like getting your drivers license without any night driving, without wet weather driving, without a big trailer going down a steep hill....etc etc. Inadequate training is all around us. Like Dan said.... it's just not required...but it should be!
I’m glad everyone got out, I wish the entire crew a speedy recovery. The loss of this DC3 breaks my heart. I was lucky enough to have taken a 30 minute flight on one over the Superstition Mountains in Arizona. It was the most pleasent flights I’ve ever had before!
The video of the DC3 landing is incredible in how long it keeps the tail flying. This is one well designed plane!
Thanks again Juan for your in-depth yet completely understandable commentary. I learned a bunch!!!! But I had forgotten what a studied bass fiddle player you were.. ;-) Awesome video ending to a tragic aviation accident.
Apologies to Lennon/McCartney... I love it! Wasn't that bad actually as an old muso myself. Great detailed update as usual. Subbed to Dan's channel. Cheers!!!
Glad you guys are pilots; If you had to make a living singing........... You'd starve! Great information as always. Thank you!
Juan, I'm a new subscriber and very afraid to fly. But, I really like your channel.
go flying asap, please.
I fly DA40s. Extremely docile, strong, very safe. Recommended.
Welcome aboard!
@@blancolirio : Hey, thanks!
Glad everyone made it out alive! Great video Juan. Really liked the Ticket to ride at the end. Good times sitting around with a buddy picking out some tunes. Time to get my old Gibson out and do some picking myself. 😊
"We need to police ourselves better."
"Yeah, I type rated the guy 2 months earlier."
Hopefully lesson learned.
The lesson being that a checkride isn't representative of airmanship or ability in a wide variety of situations, weights, conditions, etc. Airmanship and judgment require experience that no training program in and of itself can provide.
Dan didn't write the requirements to get the type rating. He just followed the requirements...
@@hackerf15e
A training program isn't able to give students experience in every possible situation. However it should be required to give students experience in situations that are known to occur, situations like flying the plane with its normal load and flying it from the right seat. Sounds like the type rating in this case is woefully inadequate.
To my way of thinking it seems like this pilot was only qualified to conduct ferry flights of a pretty empty airplane...
There's a large difference between performing to minimum standards on the checkride, and being able to safely perform under a variety of much more challenging conditions of real world operations. Given the experience level of the mishap FO, and his difficulties with directional control during his first two rides with the unit, what I see is the PIC having made an error to disregard well the established practice of having the freshly minted crewmember perform as pilot flying for the first leg or two. Give him an opportunity to see what a heavy takeoff actually looks like. Overestimating both your proficiency as a check pilot, while underestimating the speed at which the other guy can screw things up, has destroyed a lot of airplanes. There's a time and a place for generosity. The first flight outside of training and checking, in a previously unseen environment (Heavy) isn't the place.
That is a very cheap and undeserved shot. Mr. Gryder didn't make up the list of requirements!
I had friends that were on this skydiving DC-3 incident at Salado, TX. Lots of rivets popped on that flight. Needless to say, they were flying it again that afternoon. Took both pilots to get it out of the developed spin and subsequent dive. Still had many skydivers onboard for the descent. They couldn't get out due to the forces.
My mom helped build these during the war...
That is very cool. I bet your mom had some wonderful stories. These ladies made such a huge contribution to the war effort. You should be proud!
You must be very proud of your mom. I bet she has some wonderful stories. These ladies made a huge contribution to the war effort. Very cool!
Your mother should be over 90 years old if she built them...
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 she has been gone for awhile...
Did anyone else notice that Dan’s shirt was inside out? I want to mentally reach a state where I could leave the house (and be in a TH-cam video!) and not give two $hits about which way my clothes are on. Well done, sir.
8:36 Juan "they all go, they gotta go" me thinking to myself..there goin whether they want to or not just sucked them right out..😆
Took off in ground effect and immediately stalled! I think of those WWII Gooney-Birds towing gliders. That took some flying skill! Glad everyone survived this accident!
I hear my instructor, Don't horse it off - fly the airplane
30 years later, I can still hear my instructor tell me "Fly the airplane, dont let it fly you"... Just like it was yesterday.
These guys were just along for the ride....