Ned keeps coming on strong! Very nicely done pal. And LOVE the positivity that you and your guests bring to the table. No name calling, no insults, no personal attacks, no mocking people. That is what the community needs.
Thanks, Ned, for bringing Mr. Butterfield to the show. I really wonder why he didn’t get up and walk out when it became plain in the doc interview that the filmmakers schtick was that there was no single Zodiac killer. Why allow himself to be in it?
Ah, yes, the Al Capone vault fiasco with Geraldo. I remember watching it back in the 80s, and the show was the big topic of conversation in school the next day. Everyone felt ripped off.
Oddly, I watched it earlier this spring. In April actually. At the end Geraldo was like , okay I said if there is nothing there I would sing. Then, he chanted "Chicago. Chicago! Ah whatever...." And walked off. Then, Geraldo said that he felt better the next day when he learned that it was the highest rated special (of its kind) in the history of television.
Butterfield, if you like math, look into the Hill cipher method to see if the 18 characters letters left over from Harden's Key were re-encrypted by the Hill cipher. This method uses algebraic block equations to code and decode short messages, even down to one or two words. Could be one method to consider for short ciphers.
Great show!! Michael Butterfield was the first Zodiac researcher I found and I read his site and listened to his great A-Z podcast. I completely agree with him that Lake Herman Road was NOT the first time the man who called himself The Zodiac killed , he was just too damned efficient & ruthless a killer for that to be his first time. I think Zodiac goes back, infact I think he may go way back more than 99.9% of people would ever conceive.
Probably some of the best observations I have heard. It's dissapointing, but the fact is that we know so little and unless the police have some information that could clear up some confusion and rule in or out some of the "evidence" we will most likely never know who the Zodiac was and if he did other murders than the ones that's for the most part agreed upon.
@@RayGrantTZMS I'd just like to know why Butterfield knowingly read misinformation during his (hopefully) last TV appearance. I thought doing such things was what others did? I thought Butterfield was the only honest researcher? Anything for a buck, I guess.
Here's Mike Butterfield on Tom Voigt's Original Archived Message Board. The post is dated October 30, 2000 at 10:09PM: CHASING THE RADIAN: X Marks the Spot In December of 1980, Gareth Penn used a protracter, a piece of acetaite, a map of the Bay Area, and a pen to create what has become known as the "radian theory". According to Penn, 3 points on a map -- the scene of the Blue Rock Springs shooting, the scene of the Stine Murder at Washington and Cherry streets, and Mt. Diablo -- form a radian angel (valued at approximately 54.3 degrees). Penn constructed an elaboraite theory surounding this discovery, and eventually declared that one Michael Henry O'Haire was the Zodiac. Articles for a Mensa journal led to Penn's book TIMES 17, and, some 20 years later, Penn continues to present complicated and convoluted mathematical analisys of the Zodiac's letters which he claims implicate O'Hare in the Zodiac's crimes. Almost ten years ago, I learned of Penns' work, and I was intrigued by the radian theory. As time passed, I believed that Penn's suspect was not the Zodiac, but that Penn had made a valueable contribution by discovering the radian. Along with others, I consistantly sited Penn's discovery, at times going so far as to insult those who question this theory. To me, it all seemed so simple. Of course, I was wrong. The debate concerning the radian theory made me determined to settle the issue once and for all. To begin with, I threw out everything I had ever done in my previous map analisys, and started a new with the map sent by the Zodiac in June of 1970. The Zodiac had drawed a crossed-circle over Mt. Diablo, however, the lines of this cross did not meet at the center. Rather, the Zodiac apparantly wanted the peak of Mt. Diablo to be seen through the center of his symbol. If the Zodiac was creating a radian, this point would serve as its ape-x. Next, I located the scene of Paul Stine's murder at the corner of Washington and Cherry streets in San Francisco. Using several other SF Street maps, I was able to pin point the scene on Zodiac's map by noteing its relationship to the visable landmarks, such as the border of the Presidio base, the coast line, Geary Street, and the Golden Gate bridge, among others. Unfortunately, the border of the Zodiac's map lies between the two Vallejo murder scenes, at the point where Lake Herman Road meets Columbus Parkway, and it was clear that the BRS scene was not visible. Since the radian suggestion pertained to the map, and Penn's theory included Blue Rock Springs, the Zodiac (or anyone else) could only measure a radian which included this scene by estimating where Blue Rock Springs Park might appear if it was visible on the map. At this point, I knew I needed more information if I was going to accurately locate the Lake Herman Road and Blue Rock Springs scenes. I called upon Ed N. and Jake Wark to provide their analysis. I mailed Jake and Ed copies of the Zodiac's map, a USGS map of the Bay area, and a map of Vallejo and environs, asking that they locate and mark all the relevant Zodiac scenes. I also asked the pair to estimate the location of the Blue Rock Springs scene on the Zodiac's map and mark that spot. Jake dutifully participated in what he dubbed "the Zodiac Olympics," and soon returned the annotated maps. Ed took advantage of geography, using a video camera to gather footage of the two Vallejo crime scenes and the drive in-between. He also filmed himself charting the scenes on a map of Vallejo, and returned this video tape with his annotated maps. I used the 6 maps provided by Jake and Ed, several other maps of the Bay area, Ed's videotape, a similar videotape I had made on an earlier visit to Vallejo, several Internet maps, and ariel photographs in my attempts to accurately locate these sites. Accounting for the fact that my analysis was inaccurate until Ed corrected me, the results of the Zodiac Olympics are as follows: 1) Jake Wark, Gold 2) Ed N., Silver 3) Buterfield, Bronze Jake's estimation of the Blue Rock Springs seen on the Zodiac's map was too far to the west of the actual site, but he was able to accurately locate all the sites which were visible on the map. My approximation of the Washington and Cherry scene was accute, but I was wrong on both the Lake Herman Road and Blue Rock Springs scenes. It would seem that had a shoehorn been entered in these Olympics, I may have come in fourth. Ed was accurate on those two scenes, but placed the Washington and Cherry site to the North and many blocks to the East of the actual scene, inside the Presidio. The location is actually nearer the middle and south of the base. It should be noted that the copy of the Zodiac's map which Ed was given to work with was a low resolution copy of a very small phonograph. Ed also stated that he had marked this scene in haste. This "guesstimate" serves to illustrate the precision necessary to locate the sites, as well as the difficulty and margin for error in doing so. Once I was able to accurately locate all the scenes on the other maps, I marked them on my copy of the Zodiac's map. I placed another X where I believed the Blue Rock Springs scene would appear were it visible on that map. I did this to the best of my ability, using all the available information from Graysmith's excellent book. To put the radian theory to the test, I used a protractor and a sharpened pencil to measure an angle valued between 574 and 58.1 degrees, with the Washington and Cherry site serving as the 0 point and Mt. Diablo as the apex. The Blue Rock Springs site lay somewhere between 58 and 59 degrees; the Lake Herman Road scene, somewhere between 59 and 60 degrees. As estimates, the margin for error would comprise a distance of at least one (1) (Uno) degree or more. The line of a sharpened pencil is extremely fine, unlike the blunted felttip pen the Zodiac used to anno-tate his map. When this same radian is drawn on the Zodiac's map using such a pen (creating a line approximating the width of the Zodiac's crossed-circle), the lines fall directly through the Washington and Cherry Street sight, and the X approximating the location of the scene at Blue Rock Springs Park. Thus, if the Zodiac had used the same map to estimate such a radian, and had also used such a pen to mark the location of the Blue Rock Springs site on some sort of traceing, he may well have believed that this site fell between 54 and 58.1 degrees. Also, the difficulty in the estimating the Blue Rock Springs scene on the Zodiac's map may have caused the Zodiac to make a simple mistake while measuring, thereby incorrectly marking the site by one degree. Arguements refuting the radian theory often mention the fact that the Zodiac's map does not show the Blue Rock Springs scene, and therefore, the Zodiac would not attempt to imply a radian which included this site. I believe there is a simple explanation for this perceived discrepancy, although I readily admit that my theory is only speculation. The map sent by the Zodiac is what is generaly referred to as an "inset map," or, a small map featuring an area of the larger map which it accompanies. The Zodiac had apparantly cut the inset map from the larger map before sending it along with his letter of June 26, 1970. The larger, or primary map most likely illustrated an area spanning an extensive view of both Mt. Diablo and the Blue Rock Springs scene, if not the areas further north of Vallejo as well. Undoubtadly, this map would not show as much detail as the inset map, and therefore, it would be even more difficult to accurately locate the crime scene with absolute precision. Yet, that map would probably show all of the relavant scenes, and it is possible that the Zodiac may have used that map to measure his radian. If so, the minor error in that measurement on that map may explain the discrepancy, especially if the Zodiac also used the same felttip pen which he had used to an-notate the inset map. In short, the Zodiac may have believed that he had accurately constructed a radian, in spite of the tiny fraction of error created by the same difficulties which, Ed, Jake, Bill Nelson and I all encountered. The Zodiac may also have believed that the police would like wise consult a larger map which did include the Blue Rock Springs scene. After all, most police departments routinely consult large maps of their jurisdictions and outer areas in order to accurately locate pertinent sites. Assuming that his crime scenes did form a radian with Mt. Diablo, it is logical that he would also assume that the police would reach a similiar conclusion. This analisys is not offered as a complete explanation of the Zodiac's map, or his radian suggestions. Rather, this analisys demonstrates that the "radian theory" is a plausible and credible interpretation of the material, despite minor discrepancies in measurements. Just as it is impossible to know that the Zodiac desired or intended such interpretations, it is equally impossible to prove that he did. The radian theory may remain the subject of debate, and some may choose to dismiss its impotance or rule it to be the result of coincidence. Yet, this analisys of the Zodiac's map and the relevent scenes proves that this theory is by no means inviladated. Others are welcome to repeat or improve upon my methods and offer the results of their own analysis. Thanks to Jake and Ed and Bill Nelson for all their help. If I have made any errors, please bring them to my attention. Thank you.
Michael Butterfield is one of the best people to listen to when it comes to the Zodiac Killer. His research and analysis on the case is top notch and it’s great to hear you talk to him again Ned. Keep up the great work and have a great rest of your day, take care!
*Ooh I love BBOR* ... haven't been here in a few months but always love the channel!! I'm very familiar/interested with the case myself and personally find the ALA / DON Cheney "combo" theory the most INTERESTING (not necessarily the most valid) but yeah I feel like ALA is the best suspect still and possibly could be explained further by having help from a close friend like a don Cheney. It seems like all those guys (rob spenelli, Ala, don, etc) were into crime in some form or fashion. They're telling on each other (spenelli on ala) and theyre supposedly offering hit man jobs to each other (again if you believe Spanelli) and the whole ABC murders modus operandi, if you will.. all that stuff.. idk to me it seems like SOMETHING is there that is related to the case I just can't put it all together. I find Drew Beason's theory very interesting of course.
Mr. Butterfield is saying that the producer of the lousy doc told him that his appearance in it was terrific because it was the voice of reason. And this is perplexing to Butterfield because the whole jist of the doc goes against what he believes. The producer is just your average basic film producer. He doesn’t care about reality, not even the reality of someone’s statement. He made the film because its premise will make people’s watch it. That’s all.
Butterfield says he was in Las Vegas in 1991 when a book store employee suggested he read Gareth Penn's TIMES 17. He called the publisher's phone number and talked to Gareth Penn personally and ordered TIMES 17 and came away convinced by it. 42:07 "So I think that I had this moment where I accepted what Gareth was saying and then that sort of colored my beliefs from there. Now, it didn't last very long." Well, yes it did. Butterfield appeared on the Case Reopened TV program in March 1999, around eight years after getting Gareth's book, and demonstrated not only the radian theory but also the idea that the Xs on the crosshairs symbol at the end of the November 9, 1969 letter could be protracted on a map to intersect with each of the Zodiac crime scenes. That second point doesn't have anything directly to do with the radian theory, and yet Butterfield still demonstrated it on television (a fact he conveniently ignores whenever he discusses his take on the radian theory). If you don't believe me, you can Google Case Reopened and look at the program yourself. 45:06 "So I tried to find ways to explain the problems with it. And I wrote that up in an article years ago. And I think I was just you know I was stuck in this pattern with that. And after some years passed, I had a theory about something and I decided to sort of look into it again but this time more thoroughly, trying to get the most accurate maps I could, you know U.S. Geological Survey maps and things like that. And I have to say that after a short period of time it just became clear to me that it wasn't adding up. That the reasons that I had come up with to try to justify why it could still be true just weren't holding up any more. So I was forced to concede that, first of all, the angle formed by those crime scenes was not a radian angle, and even if you wanted to argue like I had done previously that there could be reasons why the Zodiac could have made that mistake and still intended to make a radian and things like that, they just didn't, they just didn't hold up. And so I finally just said, you know what, I'm wrong about this." Apparently Butterfield has by now seen my video series on the Crackpot Files, where I go back over his message board post from Monday, October 30, 2000 at 10:09PM (almost exactly 24 years ago) in which he defends the radian theory at great length and even gets into arguments with the late Glen Claston about it (this can be found on the Original Archived Message Board on Tom's website on the Wayback Machine). I have posted that article to this message board so everyone can read it. First, note that Butterfield AGAIN says nothing about his demonstration of the protractions through the Xs at the end of the November 9, 1969 letter, which has nothing directly to do with the radian theory. This is apparently a case of *targeted* memory loss. Butterfield also says nothing about the demonstration, immediately after his own radian demonstration on the TV show, of the BRSP crime scene-Springs & Tuolumne phone booth-LHR crime scene angle, which is a precise 57.3 degree radian. I explain in my video, at my usual length, why the angle apexed on Mt. Diablo could not, for practical reasons, be a precise radian (mainly because the two crime scenes had to be at notorious lover's lanes, and to draw a precise radian, the victims would have had to have been murdered in the middle of roads or in fields, where the "lover's lane" angle would have been lost). Considering what they had to work with, it's amazing that the Zodiacs came within 2-3 degrees of drawing a radian. The second fabrication in Butterfield's account here is that he realized the radian was wrong when he consulted more accurate maps. As you can see from the article, he not only went to great lengths to ensure his own accuracy in 2000, he even pressganged Jake Wark and Ed Neil into performing their analyses of the radian theory alongside his own. There was never any doubt that the Mt. Diablo radian wasn't a precise 57.3 degrees; the question was, could the Zodiac, using a thick felt-tip pen similar to the ones he wrote his letters with, believe that the angle was a radian? And the answer, to his own satisfaction, was Yes. The problem was that nine years later, in September 2009, Butterfield had lost his book contract and his agent (Peter Miller), and he had started up his own website to compensate for those losses. But, since Tom's website was getting even more hits than his, more than a million per month in the wake of the Fincher movie, Butterfield needed something that would set his own website apart, and he decided to make it your DEBUNKING website. The problem was, he needed something really big to DEBUNK. And he knew that the Mt. Diablo-apexed angle wasn't a precise radian. PRESTO CHANGO! The radian theory, which Butterfield had backed for a decade, was tossed over the side. And anyone who still believed it was a CRACKPOT! Never mind that Butterfield himself had demonstrated it on TV! And never mind that phone booth radian or the Xs on the Zodiac symbol from 11/9/69. Move along, nothing to see here! Ned, if Butterfield wants to debate me on any of this, let me know. Needless to say, I'm not holding my breath.
@@BlackBoxOnlineRadio I forgot that I originally offered Butterfield $1,000 to debate me. In other words, not $1,000 to the winner of the debate; I offered Butterfield $1,000 up front, free and clear, if he’d debate me on Ned’s channel. There was a guy on Ross’s message board who said Butterfield would destroy me in a debate; apparently Butterfield himself doesn’t share that opinion. I likewise offer Dave Oranchak $500, which I assume he’d just donate to his favorite charity, to debate me on Ned’s channel. It’s less money because Dave’s scalp isn’t worth as much on the open market.
@@tomvoigtWhat is it called when someone stalks? “Stalking is a pattern of repeated and unwanted attention, harassment, contact, or any other course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to feel fear,” according to the Department of Justice.
In listening to this episode. About Riverside. And the eventual comings of a hoaxer admitting to writing the letters, but Sherwood Morill (not sure of spelling) saying that the typed “the confession” letter(s). With its hand written envelope was definitely the handwriting of the Zodiac. Thar Sherwood is wrong, if the hoaxer admitted to writing the other mailings. Fine but I think the hoaxer should really be questioned, etc. And see if he isn’t admitting to it, for attention. They also could, and I think should have had other hand writing examiners look at those papers. Off topic, but Zodiac related, when the cops had cause to go search ALA’s home, that the pipe bombs, varied and some different builds. Who is this convict that ALA says stored them there. He had no idea what was put away, by this convict. Have the police questioned him about that? It may be possible they do not want to release this “ convicts” name, but I would like to know how far they dug into that. What if this “convict” was an alter ego to ALA’s persona? And strangely I knew of 18 yr olds in my town who made pipe bombs, etc. The cops caught them, and their names were all over the papers. And I assume this convict was not a minor. Does anyone have info into those statements
pretty sure zodiac was 💯 cointelpro just like Manson. they just took a bunch of random murders and wrote a fictional spin on it with operation mockingbird
Ned if you had the chance to punch one zodiac expert in the face, who would it be? For me it would be Arthur Leigh Allen, or the guy with the really big nose I forget his name.
I'm looking forward to reading Michael's book. It will provide me with a thorough cleansing from the nonsense put forth (e.g., 2 books, Zodiac movie) by true crime grifter Robert Graysmith.
The interview is a welcome thing but I think both of you spent too much precious time discussing junk productions, whether dad was the killer books or what not. Since your guest is renowned I wanted to hear more ideas he has on the case.
For Quick Reference:
00:00 The Zodiac Killer Investigation
01:09:00 The Myth of the Zodiac Killer on Peacock
01:44:00 Supporter ShoutOuts
Great interview Ned 👍🏼👌🏼✅💯
Butterfield is hands down the best contributor to listen to regarding the zodiac case.
That 100%
MB ~ total OG
Ok so you 😮
Ned keeps coming on strong! Very nicely done pal.
And LOVE the positivity that you and your guests bring to the table. No name calling, no insults, no personal attacks, no mocking people. That is what the community needs.
You’re killing it Ned.
🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
Thank you so much
Butterfield !! Thanks Ned
Thanks!
Thank you so much.
Thanks, Ned, for bringing Mr. Butterfield to the show. I really wonder why he didn’t get up and walk out when it became plain in the doc interview that the filmmakers schtick was that there was no single Zodiac killer. Why allow himself to be in it?
He got the part because I turned it down . And he participated because Butterfield is a raging hypocrite.
@@tomvoigtcan’t you guys just get along😂😢
@@GeoChad I get along great.
Good stuff as always Ned. Some great insights from Michael Butterfield too.
@@TheCliffsEdge2024 Thanks. I liked your podcast on Jack the Ripper btw.
Ah, yes, the Al Capone vault fiasco with Geraldo. I remember watching it back in the 80s, and the show was the big topic of conversation in school the next day. Everyone felt ripped off.
Oddly, I watched it earlier this spring. In April actually. At the end Geraldo was like , okay I said if there is nothing there I would sing. Then, he chanted "Chicago. Chicago! Ah whatever...." And walked off. Then, Geraldo said that he felt better the next day when he learned that it was the highest rated special (of its kind) in the history of television.
@@BlackBoxOnlineRadio
Butterfield, if you like math, look into the Hill cipher method to see if the 18 characters letters left over from Harden's Key were re-encrypted by the Hill cipher. This method uses algebraic block equations to code and decode short messages, even down to one or two words. Could be one method to consider for short ciphers.
Great show!! Michael Butterfield was the first Zodiac researcher I found and I read his site and listened to his great A-Z podcast. I completely agree with him that Lake Herman Road was NOT the first time the man who called himself The Zodiac killed , he was just too damned efficient & ruthless a killer for that to be his first time. I think Zodiac goes back, infact I think he may go way back more than 99.9% of people would ever conceive.
Miss ya JJ 😜
@tregeraaron I am still in the game Michael 👻👻
Good Morning
West Virrrggggiiinyaaa. Dont ever change ur intro please
I agree! I was born in Huntington, Cabell County, but I live in NC. My family were military and I never really got a chance to see West Virginia. L/R
Michael is the man. A very credible and sincere individual, and critical thinker
Probably some of the best observations I have heard. It's dissapointing, but the fact is that we know so little and unless the police have some information that could clear up some confusion and rule in or out some of the "evidence" we will most likely never know who the Zodiac was and if he did other murders than the ones that's for the most part agreed upon.
And that ladies and gentlemen is why Mr Butterfield is my preferred source for zodiac information
You must be a big fan of dead air.
@@RayGrantTZMS I'd just like to know why Butterfield knowingly read misinformation during his (hopefully) last TV appearance. I thought doing such things was what others did? I thought Butterfield was the only honest researcher? Anything for a buck, I guess.
@@tomvoigt Woody Allen made a movie about Mike Butterfield’s career on TV-Take The Money And Run.
@tomvoigt why can't we all just get along. I mean he'll I've got your book Tom it's a great resource cause I want just the facts.
@@nkbguy2193 Ok, well if you want the facts, Butterfield got paid to read misinformation on a TV show about the Zodiac. And that's a fact.
Here's Mike Butterfield on Tom Voigt's Original Archived Message Board.
The post is dated October 30, 2000 at 10:09PM:
CHASING THE RADIAN: X Marks the Spot
In December of 1980, Gareth Penn used a protracter, a piece of acetaite, a map of the Bay Area, and a pen to create what has become known as the "radian theory". According to Penn, 3 points on a map -- the scene of the Blue Rock Springs shooting, the scene of the Stine Murder at Washington and Cherry streets, and Mt. Diablo -- form a radian angel (valued at approximately 54.3 degrees).
Penn constructed an elaboraite theory surounding this discovery, and eventually declared that one Michael Henry O'Haire was the Zodiac. Articles for a Mensa journal led to Penn's book TIMES 17, and, some 20 years later, Penn continues to present complicated and convoluted mathematical analisys of the Zodiac's letters which he claims implicate O'Hare in the Zodiac's crimes.
Almost ten years ago, I learned of Penns' work, and I was intrigued by the radian theory. As time passed, I believed that Penn's suspect was not the Zodiac, but that Penn had made a valueable contribution by discovering the radian. Along with others, I consistantly sited Penn's discovery, at times going so far as to insult those who question this theory. To me, it all seemed so simple.
Of course, I was wrong.
The debate concerning the radian theory made me determined to settle the issue once and for all. To begin with, I threw out everything I had ever done in my previous map analisys, and started a new with the map sent by the Zodiac in June of 1970.
The Zodiac had drawed a crossed-circle over Mt. Diablo, however, the lines of this cross did not meet at the center. Rather, the Zodiac apparantly wanted the peak of Mt. Diablo to be seen through the center of his symbol. If the Zodiac was creating a radian, this point would serve as its ape-x.
Next, I located the scene of Paul Stine's murder at the corner of Washington and Cherry streets in San Francisco. Using several other SF Street maps, I was able to pin point the scene on Zodiac's map by noteing its relationship to the visable landmarks, such as the border of the Presidio base, the coast line, Geary Street, and the Golden Gate bridge, among others.
Unfortunately, the border of the Zodiac's map lies between the two Vallejo murder scenes, at the point where Lake Herman Road meets Columbus Parkway, and it was clear that the BRS scene was not visible. Since the radian suggestion pertained to the map, and Penn's theory included Blue Rock Springs, the Zodiac (or anyone else) could only measure a radian which included this scene by estimating where Blue Rock Springs Park might appear if it was visible on the map.
At this point, I knew I needed more information if I was going to accurately locate the Lake Herman Road and Blue Rock Springs scenes. I called upon Ed N. and Jake Wark to provide their analysis.
I mailed Jake and Ed copies of the Zodiac's map, a USGS map of the Bay area, and a map of Vallejo and environs, asking that they locate and mark all the relevant Zodiac scenes. I also asked the pair to estimate the location of the Blue Rock Springs scene on the Zodiac's map and mark that spot.
Jake dutifully participated in what he dubbed "the Zodiac Olympics," and soon returned the annotated maps. Ed took advantage of geography, using a video camera to gather footage of the two Vallejo crime scenes and the drive in-between. He also filmed himself charting the scenes on a map of Vallejo, and returned this video tape with his annotated maps.
I used the 6 maps provided by Jake and Ed, several other maps of the Bay area, Ed's videotape, a similar videotape I had made on an earlier visit to Vallejo, several Internet maps, and ariel photographs in my attempts to accurately locate these sites.
Accounting for the fact that my analysis was inaccurate until Ed corrected me, the results of the Zodiac Olympics are as follows:
1) Jake Wark, Gold
2) Ed N., Silver
3) Buterfield, Bronze
Jake's estimation of the Blue Rock Springs seen on the Zodiac's map was too far to the west of the actual site, but he was able to accurately locate all the sites which were visible on the map.
My approximation of the Washington and Cherry scene was accute, but I was wrong on both the Lake Herman Road and Blue Rock Springs scenes. It would seem that had a shoehorn been entered in these Olympics, I may have come in fourth.
Ed was accurate on those two scenes, but placed the Washington and Cherry site to the North and many blocks to the East of the actual scene, inside the Presidio. The location is actually nearer the middle and south of the base. It should be noted that the copy of the Zodiac's map which Ed was given to work with was a low resolution copy of a very small phonograph. Ed also stated that he had marked this scene in haste. This "guesstimate" serves to illustrate the precision necessary to locate the sites, as well as the difficulty and margin for error in doing so.
Once I was able to accurately locate all the scenes on the other maps, I marked them on my copy of the Zodiac's map. I placed another X where I believed the Blue Rock Springs scene would appear were it visible on that map. I did this to the best of my ability, using all the available information from Graysmith's excellent book.
To put the radian theory to the test, I used a protractor and a sharpened pencil to measure an angle valued between 574 and 58.1 degrees, with the Washington and Cherry site serving as the 0 point and Mt. Diablo as the apex. The Blue Rock Springs site lay somewhere between 58 and 59 degrees; the Lake Herman Road scene, somewhere between 59 and 60 degrees. As estimates, the margin for error would comprise a distance of at least one (1) (Uno) degree or more.
The line of a sharpened pencil is extremely fine, unlike the blunted felttip pen the Zodiac used to anno-tate his map. When this same radian is drawn on the Zodiac's map using such a pen (creating a line approximating the width of the Zodiac's crossed-circle), the lines fall directly through the Washington and Cherry Street sight, and the X approximating the location of the scene at Blue Rock Springs Park. Thus, if the Zodiac had used the same map to estimate such a radian, and had also used such a pen to mark the location of the Blue Rock Springs site on some sort of traceing, he may well have believed that this site fell between 54 and 58.1 degrees. Also, the difficulty in the estimating the Blue Rock Springs scene on the Zodiac's map may have caused the Zodiac to make a simple mistake while measuring, thereby incorrectly marking the site by one degree.
Arguements refuting the radian theory often mention the fact that the Zodiac's map does not show the Blue Rock Springs scene, and therefore, the Zodiac would not attempt to imply a radian which included this site. I believe there is a simple explanation for this perceived discrepancy, although I readily admit that my theory is only speculation.
The map sent by the Zodiac is what is generaly referred to as an "inset map," or, a small map featuring an area of the larger map which it accompanies. The Zodiac had apparantly cut the inset map from the larger map before sending it along with his letter of June 26, 1970.
The larger, or primary map most likely illustrated an area spanning an extensive view of both Mt. Diablo and the Blue Rock Springs scene, if not the areas further north of Vallejo as well. Undoubtadly, this map would not show as much detail as the inset map, and therefore, it would be even more difficult to accurately locate the crime scene with absolute precision. Yet, that map would probably show all of the relavant scenes, and it is possible that the Zodiac may have used that map to measure his radian. If so, the minor error in that measurement on that map may explain the discrepancy, especially if the Zodiac also used the same felttip pen which he had used to an-notate the inset map.
In short, the Zodiac may have believed that he had accurately constructed a radian, in spite of the tiny fraction of error created by the same difficulties which, Ed, Jake, Bill Nelson and I all encountered. The Zodiac may also have believed that the police would like wise consult a larger map which did include the Blue Rock Springs scene. After all, most police departments routinely consult large maps of their jurisdictions and outer areas in order to accurately locate pertinent sites. Assuming that his crime scenes did form a radian with Mt. Diablo, it is logical that he would also assume that the police would reach a similiar conclusion.
This analisys is not offered as a complete explanation of the Zodiac's map, or his radian suggestions. Rather, this analisys demonstrates that the "radian theory" is a plausible and credible interpretation of the material, despite minor discrepancies in measurements. Just as it is impossible to know that the Zodiac desired or intended such interpretations, it is equally impossible to prove that he did.
The radian theory may remain the subject of debate, and some may choose to dismiss its impotance or rule it to be the result of coincidence. Yet, this analisys of the Zodiac's map and the relevent scenes proves that this theory is by no means inviladated.
Others are welcome to repeat or improve upon my methods and offer the results of their own analysis. Thanks to Jake and Ed and Bill Nelson for all their help. If I have made any errors, please bring them to my attention. Thank you.
Nice post, Ray; hopefully it won't get deleted.
@@tomvoigt I don’t think it will, if it got past the dreaded spam bot. Don’t look now, but I’m about to post a follow-up.
Butter fields. Mistake was calling ray a crackpot lol.
Hey where can I purchase one of your Stine Stein's ? Real class act dude! @@tomvoigt
@@bhiggins66 Thanks for helping make my show #1 on NetFlix!
Michael Butterfield is one of the best people to listen to when it comes to the Zodiac Killer. His research and analysis on the case is top notch and it’s great to hear you talk to him again Ned. Keep up the great work and have a great rest of your day, take care!
*Ooh I love BBOR* ... haven't been here in a few months but always love the channel!! I'm very familiar/interested with the case myself and personally find the ALA / DON Cheney "combo" theory the most INTERESTING (not necessarily the most valid) but yeah I feel like ALA is the best suspect still and possibly could be explained further by having help from a close friend like a don Cheney. It seems like all those guys (rob spenelli, Ala, don, etc) were into crime in some form or fashion. They're telling on each other (spenelli on ala) and theyre supposedly offering hit man jobs to each other (again if you believe Spanelli) and the whole ABC murders modus operandi, if you will.. all that stuff.. idk to me it seems like SOMETHING is there that is related to the case I just can't put it all together. I find Drew Beason's theory very interesting of course.
Gotta sing it like manic Monday 😂😮
Wish it were Sunday.. just a manic Monday
Gotta watch those filmmakers. Grimace. Ronald McDonald no less.
I really enjoy this guy. He's very level headed. I too tire of the wild preposterous theories.
Just a zodiac Monday. 😮😂 scary as all bad things.
Mr. Butterfield is saying that the producer of the lousy doc told him that his appearance in it was terrific because it was the voice of reason. And this is perplexing to Butterfield because the whole jist of the doc goes against what he believes. The producer is just your average basic film producer. He doesn’t care about reality, not even the reality of someone’s statement. He made the film because its premise will make people’s watch it. That’s all.
Butterfield says he was in Las Vegas in 1991 when a book store employee suggested he read Gareth Penn's TIMES 17. He called the publisher's phone number and talked to Gareth Penn personally and ordered TIMES 17 and came away convinced by it.
42:07 "So I think that I had this moment where I accepted what Gareth was saying and then that sort of colored my beliefs from there. Now, it didn't last very long."
Well, yes it did. Butterfield appeared on the Case Reopened TV program in March 1999, around eight years after getting Gareth's book, and demonstrated not only the radian theory but also the idea that the Xs on the crosshairs symbol at the end of the November 9, 1969 letter could be protracted on a map to intersect with each of the Zodiac crime scenes. That second point doesn't have anything directly to do with the radian theory, and yet Butterfield still demonstrated it on television (a fact he conveniently ignores whenever he discusses his take on the radian theory). If you don't believe me, you can Google Case Reopened and look at the program yourself.
45:06 "So I tried to find ways to explain the problems with it. And I wrote that up in an article years ago. And I think I was just you know I was stuck in this pattern with that. And after some years passed, I had a theory about something and I decided to sort of look into it again but this time more thoroughly, trying to get the most accurate maps I could, you know U.S. Geological Survey maps and things like that. And I have to say that after a short period of time it just became clear to me that it wasn't adding up. That the reasons that I had come up with to try to justify why it could still be true just weren't holding up any more. So I was forced to concede that, first of all, the angle formed by those crime scenes was not a radian angle, and even if you wanted to argue like I had done previously that there could be reasons why the Zodiac could have made that mistake and still intended to make a radian and things like that, they just didn't, they just didn't hold up. And so I finally just said, you know what, I'm wrong about this."
Apparently Butterfield has by now seen my video series on the Crackpot Files, where I go back over his message board post from Monday, October 30, 2000 at 10:09PM (almost exactly 24 years ago) in which he defends the radian theory at great length and even gets into arguments with the late Glen Claston about it (this can be found on the Original Archived Message Board on Tom's website on the Wayback Machine). I have posted that article to this message board so everyone can read it.
First, note that Butterfield AGAIN says nothing about his demonstration of the protractions through the Xs at the end of the November 9, 1969 letter, which has nothing directly to do with the radian theory. This is apparently a case of *targeted* memory loss.
Butterfield also says nothing about the demonstration, immediately after his own radian demonstration on the TV show, of the BRSP crime scene-Springs & Tuolumne phone booth-LHR crime scene angle, which is a precise 57.3 degree radian.
I explain in my video, at my usual length, why the angle apexed on Mt. Diablo could not, for practical reasons, be a precise radian (mainly because the two crime scenes had to be at notorious lover's lanes, and to draw a precise radian, the victims would have had to have been murdered in the middle of roads or in fields, where the "lover's lane" angle would have been lost). Considering what they had to work with, it's amazing that the Zodiacs came within 2-3 degrees of drawing a radian.
The second fabrication in Butterfield's account here is that he realized the radian was wrong when he consulted more accurate maps. As you can see from the article, he not only went to great lengths to ensure his own accuracy in 2000, he even pressganged Jake Wark and Ed Neil into performing their analyses of the radian theory alongside his own. There was never any doubt that the Mt. Diablo radian wasn't a precise 57.3 degrees; the question was, could the Zodiac, using a thick felt-tip pen similar to the ones he wrote his letters with, believe that the angle was a radian? And the answer, to his own satisfaction, was Yes.
The problem was that nine years later, in September 2009, Butterfield had lost his book contract and his agent (Peter Miller), and he had started up his own website to compensate for those losses. But, since Tom's website was getting even more hits than his, more than a million per month in the wake of the Fincher movie, Butterfield needed something that would set his own website apart, and he decided to make it your DEBUNKING website.
The problem was, he needed something really big to DEBUNK.
And he knew that the Mt. Diablo-apexed angle wasn't a precise radian.
PRESTO CHANGO!
The radian theory, which Butterfield had backed for a decade, was tossed over the side.
And anyone who still believed it was a CRACKPOT!
Never mind that Butterfield himself had demonstrated it on TV!
And never mind that phone booth radian or the Xs on the Zodiac symbol from 11/9/69.
Move along, nothing to see here!
Ned, if Butterfield wants to debate me on any of this, let me know.
Needless to say, I'm not holding my breath.
Ray. I sent you an email. Did you get it ?
Great post, Ray.
I’d pay to watch that debate.
@@BlackBoxOnlineRadio I forgot that I originally offered Butterfield $1,000 to debate me. In other words, not $1,000 to the winner of the debate; I offered Butterfield $1,000 up front, free and clear, if he’d debate me on Ned’s channel. There was a guy on Ross’s message board who said Butterfield would destroy me in a debate; apparently Butterfield himself doesn’t share that opinion.
I likewise offer Dave Oranchak $500, which I assume he’d just donate to his favorite charity, to debate me on Ned’s channel. It’s less money because Dave’s scalp isn’t worth as much on the open market.
@@tomvoigtWhat is it called when someone stalks?
“Stalking is a pattern of repeated and unwanted attention, harassment, contact, or any other course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to feel fear,” according to the Department of Justice.
In listening to this episode. About Riverside. And the eventual comings of a hoaxer admitting to writing the letters, but Sherwood Morill (not sure of spelling) saying that the typed “the confession” letter(s). With its hand written envelope was definitely the handwriting of the Zodiac. Thar Sherwood is wrong, if the hoaxer admitted to writing the other mailings. Fine but I think the hoaxer should really be questioned, etc. And see if he isn’t admitting to it, for attention. They also could, and I think should have had other hand writing examiners look at those papers.
Off topic, but Zodiac related, when the cops had cause to go search ALA’s home, that the pipe bombs, varied and some different builds. Who is this convict that ALA says stored them there. He had no idea what was put away, by this convict. Have the police questioned him about that? It may be possible they do not want to release this “ convicts” name, but I would like to know how far they dug into that. What if this “convict” was an alter ego to ALA’s persona? And strangely I knew of 18 yr olds in my town who made pipe bombs, etc. The cops caught them, and their names were all over the papers. And I assume this convict was not a minor. Does anyone have info into those statements
I've followed the Zodiac mystery since I was kid in 1968. Nothing new here...time to give Z a rest.
56:22 goes silent no audio
pretty sure zodiac was 💯 cointelpro just like Manson. they just took a bunch of random murders and wrote a fictional spin on it with operation mockingbird
Ned Ned Ned Ned Ned 🌅🍁 BBOR BBOR BBOR BBOR 📻
Haha so the literal Riverside PD said the letter isn't authentic and they tracked down the one who wrote it but you STILL think it was the Zodiac? 🤡
Ned if you had the chance to punch one zodiac expert in the face, who would it be? For me it would be Arthur Leigh Allen, or the guy with the really big nose I forget his name.
I'm looking forward to reading Michael's book. It will provide me with a thorough cleansing from the nonsense put forth (e.g., 2 books, Zodiac movie) by true crime grifter Robert Graysmith.
He has been promising this book since 1995. I am not kidding.
@@tomvoigt Tom, send this guy a copy of Zodiac Death Machine by Michael Butterfield (2007), with a foreword by his former agent Peter Miller. Oh wait.
@@RayGrantTZMS The best part is, I helped him write the thing. Or attempted to, at his request. That said, I'll believe it when I see it.
I feeling it was all 3 Arthur Allen Richard Gaikowski and Don Cheney all friends that where in on it after spending time at the paint party
The #1 suspect is still Arthur Leigh Allen.
It was ALA but he wouldn't have been convicted with the evidence they had.
The interview is a welcome thing but I think both of you spent too much precious time discussing junk productions, whether dad was the killer books or what not.
Since your guest is renowned I wanted to hear more ideas he has on the case.
⬛