The funny thing about your warning about macrofamilies is that Austronesian and Tai-Kadai experts are pretty much agreed on them being related, even if the tree isn't quite worked out yet.
The nomrinative singular of aruant in Indo-Aryan is arwãʔ. A nasalized w woudl be very easy to hear as m. This gives us *rmaʔ, which may in fact be the OC form.
Interesting to note that the noun Bear in Anal and Lamkang (Old Kuki) dialects is also Tom just like in Mru. 👍👍👍 In most Kuki-Chin languages, it is either Savom, ivom, Kavom, Vompi, Vompui, Vong etc. 🙏
If you study newari numbers it’s also similar to Burmese if you omit gu from newari numbers pronunciation .compared to yi newari has more words similar to Burmese than yi . Yi words are more close to modern Chinese.
Burmese is quite Similar to old Chinese : it is dated that old Chinese is in 1250 BC . It means Burmese are already been distant from Chinese since 1250 BC . It may indirectly applied to migration of Burmese people to arrawaddy valley. Compare with yi people of nanzhao . Although their numbers are similar to tibetoburman , other words are much similar to modern Chinese . .
The standard hypothesis at the moment is that once upon a time the Burmo-Qiangic speakers were in Western Sichuan. The Gyalrongs stayed home, and other people moved and some stayed at each stage, Qiangic, Loloish, Burmish. The closets languages to Burmese are Maru, Lashi, Pela, spoken in Kachin state.
@@NathanWHill Iby comparing numbers most of tibetoburman languages differ in 678 numbers and lashi and Maru in Kachin differ to Burmese in 7and 8 not much more similar to Burmese than other tibetoburman languages.besides , other usage words in lahu and Maru sounds not similar to Burmese. Burmese numbers quite similar to newari and Himalayan branch similarities in many others words also seen . iit is said old grouping based on places rather than language similarity grades and need to reconsider grouping of tibetoburman languages. Burmese ancestors Pyu might have come from base of Himalaya around Nepal like Burmese traditionally claimed:
@@msnmorningglory1290 I never mentioned Lahu, by the way. I would encourage you to make your observations here much more concrete and perhaps try to write them up as an article. Not enough work is being done on either Newari or Burmese.
See Pyu numbers are prounnced similar to Burmese number.( Pyu = Burmese) ; 123 all similar , for 4 omit pa it’s all the same as Burmese . 5 7 10 same as Burmese . 9 omit ta , same as Burmese. Pyu civilization is 2nd century BCE to 9th century CE) according to latest excavation results.
@@NathanWHill In comparison between old Chinese , Middle Chinese,modern Chinese : by comparing between old Burmese ( pyu ) and old Burmese (Bagan) and Middle Burmese modern Burmese ; Old Chinese numbers to modern Chinese 70 % difference and even grammar of old Chinese totally changed to SOV to SVO in modern Chinese. As for Pyu ( old Burmese ) and Burmese difference only 20% and the word and vowel combination we called ကမချ table) all the same with modern Burmese not much difference. So it is highly possible Pyu I s old Burmese . Adding others historical evidence and facts into this , it is sure Pyu is Burmese. Han Lin Pyu inscription is also a proof of Pyu is burmese.
@@msnmorningglory1290 I would like to know more about your methodological assumptions. How similar to two things have to be in order to be considered 'the same'? How do we measure the similarity of two things? I would also be very curious to see your precise calculations for 70% and 20%. About word order, I don't see that this is a big deal. Irish is verb initial. The word order of Welsh has changed three times in its hisory.
@@NathanWHill so you can learn yourself old Chinese numbers differfrom now : old Chinese numbers more similar to tibetoburman . And you said changes in grammar not important for a language ; so Pyu not difference to Burmese both words and grammar Still you say not the same to Burmese . Chinese not similar to old Chinese is Chinese but Pyu similar to Burmese is not Burmese. You can’t escape from old prejudice preview of colonial historian. And I’m not insulting you but I want to advice you to learn Burmese and Tibetan and Chinese to a level to see a clear view . As for me I’m not a historian and there are many Burmese historians prove that Pyu are Burmese. Though I’m not a linguist like you I can see the obvious similarities and difference in a languge how a linguists skip the obvious points .you may like a Burmese saying ဆင်ကြီးမြင်နေတာတောင် ဆင်ခြေရာ လိုက်ရှာနေတာလား
@@NathanWHill what I say 70% , 20% is pointing out to guess similarities not doing mathematics : why is mathematics and calculation iimportant if someone don’t read a language right ? You don’t need to frighten someone with technical terms all times . . Language first technique assumption later . Technical first no language all wrong ; like CO Bladin, who decode pyu, got wrong in the first place because he didn’t know Burmese a bit . But still he is honest and say he would name temporary name as Pyu and it is a language quite similar to burmese. And correct his assumption if something more find out. And burmese historians point out many smilars words CO Bledin left out to decipher.But mon paradigm followers afraid of burmese becoming Pyu. And follow Luce step : don’t know why .
The Burmese word for "house" is "အိမ်," which today in Rangoon and Mandalay at least is pronounced as "eain", but we can see from the spelling that at one time it was pronounced im. အ (a) - This is the inherent vowel sound /a/ or the syllable "a" when it stands alone, but here indicates that there is no consonant initial. ိ (i) - This is a diacritic that modifies the inherent vowel sound to /i/. မ် (m) - This is the final consonant "m". So, /im/ is the Old Burmeese pronuncaiton.
@@NathanWHill Burmese usually don’t pronounce final consonant N or M in eain or eaim အိန် or အိမ် they pronunce the same not different: english words pronounced final consonant Eg once an English man pronunce the Burmese sentence “ ဟိုဘက်ကမ်းကလူတစ်ယောက်မျက်စိကန်းနေတယ် “ as “ ho Bat kammm ka Lu ta Yaut myat si kannnn nay dad: burmese pronunce ကန်း and ကမ်း the same with no final consonant sound. And you did pronunce အိမ် as yim with y sound and the word your pronounced become ရင်( chest) or ယင် ( fly (insect) ) and အိမ် pronunce as rain (အိမ် eain’ without final n sound) not as inn or yim as you pronunced
@@msnmorningglory1290 I know how Burmese is pronounced in Yangon today. The question is, how was Burmese pronounced 900 years ago. Every other language I know of has seen very large changes in its pronunciation over 900 years. Do you have any positive reason to think that -n and -m have always been pronounced the same. Why would works that are pronounced the same have been spelled differently in the first place?
You said Pyu used Kay as I .it is Not key : I searched in books about pyu old Burmese to modern Burmese and found this ဂိ ga gi in pyu pronunciation and ga gi and nga is not far away not totally different besides, u didn’t read that inscription continue as ဂိသး လေ သား is Burmese word “son “thar the same as Pyu and lay is the particles used in Burmese till now and we in Burmese တို့ ဒို့ Can be seen the same as Pyu and Burmese . Pyu page used mixed Pali and some Sanskrit words and finding Pyu proper is tidious. But I share some findings of Burmese historians about Pyu old Burmese and Bagan Burmese modern burmses similarity as an example Burmese words in so called Pyu pages သး (သား ) မယး(မယား ) မလိံ (မြေး )တိုင်းပြည် ကျေးဇူး ရောရွာ ဂေါ့(ဂူ) Burmese verbs ပြုသည် ပံး (ပံပိုးသည်)ဗီးသည်( ပြီးသည် ပီးသည်) လှောကိ(လှူသည် ) ဟည်းဆိက (ညင်းဆဲသည်) မတားငူဗူး ( မတားငဲ့ဘူး): Burmese verbs particles in Pyu page ; ဂ( ကား) ပံဆေနးတိံ ( ပေးစေနည်းတိုင်း) မပံဆေးဆော ( မပေးစေသော) တမူ ( တမူ ) မတလု ( မတော့လု) သရော( သရောအခါ)
In this article www.persee.fr/doc/befeo_0336-1519_2017_num_103_1_6247 the first person pronoun is given as gay·ṁḥ and indeed you are right that it is also sometimes gi. I think for me the final -y is an important obstacle to identifying this with the usual Sino-Tibetan first person pronoun nga. Also, I don't think that Pyu has a general change of ṅ > to g. For example, the Pyu word for 'five' (according to this same article) is ṅa.
@@NathanWHill Na and nga sounds are not far away try to pronounce it : it may be far away from English ear . Chinese pronunciation change to totally different sound :
@@msnmorningglory1290 Indo-European *duo changed to Armenian erku, famously. How similar words are is not relevant, what matters is that there are regular patterns. If you think Tibeto-Burman ng- changed regularly to g- in Pyu, this is possible, but the evidence of 'five' points against it.
There are many different ways to pronounce Tibetan 'correctly', since there are over 20 dialects. The presenter here was intentionally pronouncing all the letters. This is a historical pronunciation, similar to how Classical Greek is read (as opposed to Modern Greek). If you are interested in Tibetan historical phonology you may be interested in this article -- Hill, Nathan W. (2010) 'An overview of Old Tibetan synchronic phonology.' Transactions of the Philological Society, 108 (2). pp. 110-125.
@@NathanWHill I see, if you were intentionally pronouncing the silent letters, then that's different. It's just that it could be misleading to those who don't know the pronunciation. You could at least include the pronunciation according to the Central Tibetan/U-Tsang dialect (which is more or less the standard) to give people a better idea. The problem is that the way you are saying it (with all the letters) is not according to any of the dialects, let alone the main ones. However I understand the general idea you're proposing in terms of historical linguistics, and that the silent letters are important in that respect.
The funny thing about your warning about macrofamilies is that Austronesian and Tai-Kadai experts are pretty much agreed on them being related, even if the tree isn't quite worked out yet.
There’s also Pyu and Burmese used same Pali byat word ပါဠိပျက် eg . ယံ ( ယင်း ) means ‘ that’
37:22 Indic \*cakra to OC 車 looks like it makes sense, but what changes happened to borrow 馬? I don't see how \*aruant becomes \*mˁraʔ
The nomrinative singular of aruant in Indo-Aryan is arwãʔ. A nasalized w woudl be very easy to hear as m. This gives us *rmaʔ, which may in fact be the OC form.
Interesting to note that the noun Bear in Anal and Lamkang (Old Kuki) dialects is also Tom just like in Mru. 👍👍👍
In most Kuki-Chin languages, it is either Savom, ivom, Kavom, Vompi, Vompui, Vong etc. 🙏
If you study newari numbers it’s also similar to Burmese if you omit gu from newari numbers pronunciation .compared to yi newari has more words similar to Burmese than yi . Yi words are more close to modern Chinese.
車 has another common (not so rare at least) pronunciation ju1 (九魚切 kjo). Is there any theory on where that pronunciation came about?
I think it arose from paronomastic glosses. But I don't know of any research on this.
Burmese is quite Similar to old Chinese : it is dated that old Chinese is in 1250 BC . It means Burmese are already been distant from Chinese since 1250 BC . It may indirectly applied to migration of Burmese people to arrawaddy valley.
Compare with yi people of nanzhao . Although their numbers are similar to tibetoburman , other words are much similar to modern Chinese .
.
The standard hypothesis at the moment is that once upon a time the Burmo-Qiangic speakers were in Western Sichuan. The Gyalrongs stayed home, and other people moved and some stayed at each stage, Qiangic, Loloish, Burmish. The closets languages to Burmese are Maru, Lashi, Pela, spoken in Kachin state.
@@NathanWHill Iby comparing numbers most of tibetoburman languages differ in 678 numbers and lashi and Maru in Kachin differ to Burmese in 7and 8 not much more similar to Burmese than other tibetoburman languages.besides , other usage words in lahu and Maru sounds not similar to Burmese.
Burmese numbers quite similar to newari and Himalayan branch similarities in many others words also seen . iit is said old grouping based on places rather than language similarity grades and need to reconsider grouping of tibetoburman languages.
Burmese ancestors Pyu might have come from base of Himalaya around Nepal like Burmese traditionally claimed:
@@msnmorningglory1290 I never mentioned Lahu, by the way. I would encourage you to make your observations here much more concrete and perhaps try to write them up as an article. Not enough work is being done on either Newari or Burmese.
7:26 Hmong-Mien
24:40 but not holp
See Pyu numbers are prounnced similar to Burmese number.( Pyu = Burmese) ; 123 all similar , for 4 omit pa it’s all the same as Burmese . 5 7 10 same as Burmese . 9 omit ta , same as Burmese.
Pyu civilization is 2nd century BCE to 9th century CE) according to latest excavation results.
Yes, Pyu numbers are very similar to Burmese, but Chinese and Tibetan numbers are also similar to Burmese.
@@NathanWHill In comparison between old Chinese , Middle Chinese,modern Chinese : by comparing between old Burmese ( pyu ) and old Burmese (Bagan) and Middle Burmese modern Burmese ;
Old Chinese numbers to modern Chinese 70 % difference and even grammar of old Chinese totally changed to SOV to SVO in modern Chinese.
As for Pyu ( old Burmese ) and Burmese difference only 20% and the word and vowel combination we called ကမချ table) all the same with modern Burmese not much difference.
So it is highly possible Pyu I s old Burmese . Adding others historical evidence and facts into this , it is sure Pyu is Burmese.
Han Lin Pyu inscription is also a proof of Pyu is burmese.
@@msnmorningglory1290 I would like to know more about your methodological assumptions. How similar to two things have to be in order to be considered 'the same'? How do we measure the similarity of two things? I would also be very curious to see your precise calculations for 70% and 20%. About word order, I don't see that this is a big deal. Irish is verb initial. The word order of Welsh has changed three times in its hisory.
@@NathanWHill so you can learn yourself old Chinese numbers differfrom now : old Chinese numbers more similar to tibetoburman .
And you said changes in grammar not important for a language ; so Pyu not difference to Burmese both words and grammar
Still you say not the same to Burmese . Chinese not similar to old Chinese is Chinese but Pyu similar to Burmese is not Burmese. You can’t escape from old prejudice preview of colonial historian.
And I’m not insulting you but I want to advice you to learn Burmese and Tibetan and Chinese to a level to see a clear view .
As for me I’m not a historian and there are many Burmese historians prove that Pyu are Burmese.
Though I’m not a linguist like you I can see the obvious similarities and difference in a languge how a linguists skip the obvious points .you may like a Burmese saying ဆင်ကြီးမြင်နေတာတောင် ဆင်ခြေရာ လိုက်ရှာနေတာလား
@@NathanWHill what I say 70% , 20% is pointing out to guess similarities not doing mathematics : why is mathematics and calculation iimportant if someone don’t read a language right ? You don’t need to frighten someone with technical terms all times .
. Language first technique assumption later . Technical first no language all wrong ; like CO Bladin, who decode pyu, got wrong in the first place because he didn’t know Burmese a bit . But still he is honest and say he would name temporary name as Pyu and it is a language quite similar to burmese. And correct his assumption if something more find out. And burmese historians point out many smilars words CO Bledin left out to decipher.But mon paradigm followers afraid of burmese becoming Pyu. And follow Luce step : don’t know why .
Burmese word for home is not yim it’s eain
The Burmese word for "house" is "အိမ်," which today in Rangoon and Mandalay at least is pronounced as "eain", but we can see from the spelling that at one time it was pronounced im.
အ (a) - This is the inherent vowel sound /a/ or the syllable "a" when it stands alone, but here indicates that there is no consonant initial.
ိ (i) - This is a diacritic that modifies the inherent vowel sound to /i/.
မ် (m) - This is the final consonant "m".
So, /im/ is the Old Burmeese pronuncaiton.
@@NathanWHill Burmese usually don’t pronounce final consonant N or M in eain or eaim အိန် or အိမ် they pronunce the same not different: english words pronounced final consonant
Eg once an English man pronunce the Burmese sentence “ ဟိုဘက်ကမ်းကလူတစ်ယောက်မျက်စိကန်းနေတယ် “ as “ ho Bat kammm ka Lu ta Yaut myat si kannnn nay dad: burmese pronunce ကန်း and ကမ်း the same with no final consonant sound.
And you did pronunce အိမ် as yim with y sound and the word your pronounced become ရင်( chest) or ယင် ( fly (insect) ) and အိမ် pronunce as rain (အိမ် eain’ without final n sound) not as inn or yim as you pronunced
@@msnmorningglory1290 I know how Burmese is pronounced in Yangon today. The question is, how was Burmese pronounced 900 years ago. Every other language I know of has seen very large changes in its pronunciation over 900 years. Do you have any positive reason to think that -n and -m have always been pronounced the same. Why would works that are pronounced the same have been spelled differently in the first place?
@@NathanWHillin 900 year ago I’m sure Burmese wouldn’t pronunce home အိမ် to fly ယင်
@@NathanWHilland you even add y into the sound and become ယင် fly never heard of old Burmese pronunciation home as yim( insect fly)
You said Pyu used Kay as I .it is Not key : I searched in books about pyu old Burmese to modern Burmese and found this ဂိ ga gi in pyu pronunciation and ga gi and nga is not far away not totally different besides, u didn’t read that inscription continue as ဂိသး လေ သား is Burmese word “son “thar the same as Pyu and lay is the particles used in Burmese till now
and we in Burmese တို့ ဒို့ Can be seen the same as Pyu and Burmese .
Pyu page used mixed Pali and some Sanskrit words and finding Pyu proper is tidious.
But I share some findings of Burmese historians about Pyu old Burmese and Bagan Burmese modern burmses similarity as an example
Burmese words in so called Pyu pages သး (သား ) မယး(မယား ) မလိံ (မြေး )တိုင်းပြည် ကျေးဇူး ရောရွာ ဂေါ့(ဂူ)
Burmese verbs ပြုသည် ပံး (ပံပိုးသည်)ဗီးသည်( ပြီးသည် ပီးသည်) လှောကိ(လှူသည် ) ဟည်းဆိက (ညင်းဆဲသည်) မတားငူဗူး ( မတားငဲ့ဘူး):
Burmese verbs particles in Pyu page ; ဂ( ကား) ပံဆေနးတိံ ( ပေးစေနည်းတိုင်း) မပံဆေးဆော ( မပေးစေသော) တမူ ( တမူ ) မတလု ( မတော့လု) သရော( သရောအခါ)
In this article www.persee.fr/doc/befeo_0336-1519_2017_num_103_1_6247 the first person pronoun is given as gay·ṁḥ and indeed you are right that it is also sometimes gi. I think for me the final -y is an important obstacle to identifying this with the usual Sino-Tibetan first person pronoun nga. Also, I don't think that Pyu has a general change of ṅ > to g. For example, the Pyu word for 'five' (according to this same article) is ṅa.
@@NathanWHill Chinese changed from tit to yi : and hint to Er it is possible the words can change at time
@@msnmorningglory1290 Yes indeed, but such changes must be rule governeed and excptionless.
@@NathanWHill Na and nga sounds are not far away try to pronounce it : it may be far away from English ear
. Chinese pronunciation change to totally different sound :
@@msnmorningglory1290 Indo-European *duo changed to Armenian erku, famously. How similar words are is not relevant, what matters is that there are regular patterns. If you think Tibeto-Burman ng- changed regularly to g- in Pyu, this is possible, but the evidence of 'five' points against it.
Great, but the presenter apparently doesn't know how to pronounce Tibetan words, even to a basic level. He is pronouncing all the silent letters.
There are many different ways to pronounce Tibetan 'correctly', since there are over 20 dialects. The presenter here was intentionally pronouncing all the letters. This is a historical pronunciation, similar to how Classical Greek is read (as opposed to Modern Greek). If you are interested in Tibetan historical phonology you may be interested in this article -- Hill, Nathan W. (2010) 'An overview of Old Tibetan synchronic phonology.' Transactions of the Philological Society, 108 (2). pp. 110-125.
@@NathanWHill Thanks for the additional resource!
@@NathanWHill I see, if you were intentionally pronouncing the silent letters, then that's different. It's just that it could be misleading to those who don't know the pronunciation. You could at least include the pronunciation according to the Central Tibetan/U-Tsang dialect (which is more or less the standard) to give people a better idea. The problem is that the way you are saying it (with all the letters) is not according to any of the dialects, let alone the main ones. However I understand the general idea you're proposing in terms of historical linguistics, and that the silent letters are important in that respect.