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Ford has new EV production and battery factories starting to come online next year. They have a lot of catching up to do from a decade of messing around with compliance cars no one wanted, but they're on the right track.
We will see, hard to come back from losing $30k to $50k loss per vehicle .. 😢 they have to swing the right way to cut $40k to $60k just to be making a profit in their EVs. It costs $40k to $60k to make some of their ice .. f-150s It's like they are giving away an f-150 away with every EV they sell today .. 😂😂
@@bobwallace9753 Ironic isn't it that the only reason Ford is keeping from going under is due to their profitable ICE division. They've produced so many EVs that are piling up in yards that they can't sell at a profit and that not too many people want to buy.
They see that Tesla's big advantage is the factories.The machine that makes the machine.Never stopping from making better parts and cutting those you don,t need,Controlling your COG's
Not that the personality of a CEO must be the determining factor, but Farley seems to be a genuinely nice guy and also very switched on as to the EV revolution. If Ford went down on his watch, it wouldn’t be because he was blind to what’s happening in China and Tesla. He’s in charge of a massive sailing ship company after steam ships are already sailing the seas.
He seems lovely man now he's struggling to catch up and cannot fault Tesla or BYD. I bet he hasn't always been this way. He's got no choice but to be nice really. I do genuinely like him ❤
Unfortunately for him understanding the problem and fixing the problem requires the skills and time to do so. The big 3 are racing against time to avoid a business extinction event caused primary by greed and a lack of vision. Beyond that Ford has two other massive problems: Price and Quality. In the 1990's Ford stood for Fix Or Repair Daily - I'm not sure that perception has changed much. Add to that no lack of $80K truck offerings - its not rocket science knowing what the issue is here.
And he is a proper ‘petrol head’ - he races historic vehicles, it’s nice to see a leader of an automotive company have that kind of passion for the product.
“As the CEO believes”? I can’t envision Farley stepping up to a microphone at an investor event, tapping on the mic, and stating to the audience: ladies and gents: we are fracked!!!
Great analysis. Thank you. Ford and VW are at least trying to survive, while carmakers from my country Japan still refuse to face the reality. Lame. The past summer will be remembered as the turning point of auto industry hegemony.
Because deep down Akiyo Toyoda already knows Japan’s auto industry has lost the EV wars, now they are trying to look for alternatives that China still hasn’t an edge on.
A lot of Ford's recalls are due to their procurement dept buying cheap parts rather than more expensive, better quality, parts. Save a penny, pay a dollar.
Sam, buying "huge amounts" at a discount works only if they can be sold. Or else you have inventory bloat, storage costs and depreciation. Business 101...
Tesla has only two high volume models, but not only that, they also share 70% of the parts. Ford has Mach-E, F-150 Lightning, e-Transit, Explorer and Capri. The only two with anything in common are based on VW's platform, so the volume gains probably mostly go to VW.
I can help Ford a bit just watching this video .. The machine doing whatever it's doing at 7:28 looks like it's in slow motion.. Turn up the speed on that thing and pretty much every other machine....😂 That should save some bucks . 😂
I thought it was your solar panels and home battery that kept the lights on. I doubt Ford truly makes those losses per car. Profits get taxed. Thus they must always report losses so they can evade tax.
You could do that once. But the accounting rule will cause the number to shake out in the end. Or are you claiming they a Hige criminal activity like Enron ?
Obviously Tesla from the beginning was about how to get costs down. That meant sparse interiors, few parts, and gigacasting. Until mainstream automakers start doing the same they are forever going to have high priced EVs. So building a lot is not going to solve anything.
The Ford brand has always been a staple in the US. They have their following just like Tesla. Their PU trucks and delivery vans are everywhere so if they can keep that market they should be fine. They also have enough legacy models like the Mustang, Bronco, and the SUVs to compete as long as they can become more efficient building them. As to software, they should just license Tesla FSD or something equivalent rather than build their own. That ship has sailed and will likely be narrowed down to a select few platforms, like with Android and IOS. Or it could go the route of smart TV brands with a variety of clunky proprietary platforms
Volumes, horizontal integration, higher assembly output/hr, and rationalized assembly car concept...., those are keys to success of TESLA. What Ford did for mass producing cheapers cars TESLA did for EV s
Elon is right. Tesla makes decent profits on EVs and BYD makes slim ones. The Chinese companies are trying to establish economies of scale while haemorrhaging cash. Basically buying market share today in the hopes that they make a profit tomorrow. Tesla squeezed out all the costs at the design stage and not only scale but time has lowered costs.
Why? With all the reviews I've seen , I haven't really been impressed with the shark. The only thing that all the reviewers are going gaga over it is that they are best at price and value. That is extremely important if all you care about is price, but I am hoping the new ranger EV is a way better truck and I am sure it will be? Can they keep the price down so it's competitive? That will be the key. If we can get a better EV truck for a competitive price, why in the world would you ever choose a shark. Hopefully the BYD shark is not the new standard of trucks because I am not willing to settle for that.
@darpompie4354 We will see, the Ranger EV might be competitive in the US because of the tariffs. In Australia and China, like for like, probably going tobe double the price. Don't forhet these are meant to be workhorses, value is extremely important in that segment. If one buys it in the city to compensate his size, then it's the EV Raptor I guess...
Legacy auto continues to shoot themselves in the foot pushing extreme EV Fear Uncertainty Doubt. Why would a dealer sell an EV, something that is different and scary. Boo! An EV sale is a lost Internal Combustion Engine sale. Short term profits rule while the marketshare collapse accelerates (just as the Oracle that used to be from Melbourne) has predicted for three years. My legacy auto stock shorts paid off earlier for Ford and GM, Stelantis now and Toyota and Honda are next. Thanks to The Electric Vikings analytical gifts. Thanks, mate.
Dealers typically don't make much money from new car sales. They make their money from parts and service. EVs don't need the sort of parts and service that would keep dealers in business.
I love Ford too. In America and European care makers need to copy to fight it together. There has to be some sort of alliance on battery manufacturing and supply chain.Unless they control it, they can not compete with Chinese manufacturers.Once they have battery supply in control they can compete on brand and design. USA manufacturers can only compete if they join forces. No USA manufacturer (other than Tesla) has the capacity or capability to compete with Chinese manufacturing prowess.
He, Farley, was talking to Robert from everything electric, and he still thinks EV's with lithium batteries catch fire a lot. Unless he's changed the plan to make a fiesta EV, at £16-18K, he may as well look for a new job
Does Tesla’s profit include their carbon credits? (around $10 Billion over last 6 years). Be interesting to see what their core profit is without carbon credits and local govt incentives.
Average cost to produce their EV is $35k, COGS. Selling price is $45k. What does your math say about more car sold 6 years from now? Tesla sells 1.8M x $10k in profit = $18B in profit. What other states incentive? Instead of buy zev credits why don't others make more EV or pay the fine? Oh right, Tesla is actually helping them to meet the regulation standard because they have not been competent. Without ZEV credits from Tesla, the other manufacturers would be up to their neck on fines.
Yes, Tesla's bottom line profits includes ZEV credits. But Tesla is profitable without those credits. Tesla receives no incentives from governments with the exception of some property tax breaks which states provide so that they can make more tax money from employees.
In a few years, the ONLY vehicles Ford will be selling are pickup trucks and even then, ONLY in the North American market. This is sad for me because Ford was the first two vehicles I drove after getting my license: the Mustang and the Probe. Sentimentality.
Ford is losing less money than you think. The Ford CEO said the electric division is paying the ICE division to make the cars for them. This allows Ford to overcharge the electric division to move money around internally to move profits where they want. Then there are the fines that Ford does not need to pay because of the emission laws. These fines are big, over a billion.
Interesting especially since Ford have recently been handed billions of dollars from the US federal government to build a massive EV and battery plant in Tennessee. China currently produces around double US battery manufacturing output.
Chinese car breaks record and drives 2,200 km without refueling or charging. The D7 DMH, plug-in hybrid sedan from Chinese manufacturer Roewe, has set a world record for range by driving 2,208 km without having to refuel or charge, according to the Guinness Book.
@@doriangray6985 In Australia EV sales have slumped, only 8% of the new car market since January 2023. Hybrids are doing well and ICE car sales have increased.
Seems like the only hope for ford is to come up with many new revolutionary systems and manufacturing processes to stay in the game ' I've always been a believer in the keepin it simple method like musks motto ' if its not needed then delete it altogether
Ford's problem, like GM and Chrysler.. batteries. If they don't have batteries that can compete with BYD and CATL's best 6C EV in range, price, and charge times, their EVs aren't attractive to most American consumers.
thats just a mantra. Americans dont want to pay over price anymore, much like the rest of the world has been doing for years. At the right price, most americans would be outright dumb not to embrace EVs. As EVs get cheaper and ICE cars get expensive, the hip pocket will rule.
@@andyfreeze4072 I included price of batteries as part of equation. If Americans are getting too short a range, pay too high a price and have to wait around for the car to charge most won't buy an EV. As soon as batteries can compete with leading Chinese ones adoption will be swift. Even most of the dummies that deny global warming and EV haters because of it would buy one.
I wonder, if Tesla only produced the model Y, how many Model 3 customers would buy a Model Y instead, and how many customers they would they actually lose.
Less parts less employees less stock on shelves less machines ...EV profits will blow away ICE auto manufacturing...by 2027 to 2030 by a factor of ten ..
Ford has a chance of surviving in a greatly diminished state, but it must start buying deals with Tesla and not just on FSD. Of all the legacy OEMs, Ford is ahead but it is far behind Tesla, China, and Korea.
I liked Ford, I had so many Cortinas mk1 to 5 inclusive, escorts, Capris etc. Yes they WERE great cars but so was my vhs VIDEO recorder and my Cannon cameras. Time to move over as Ford just held back as long as they could. Now it's time to say goodbye. Shame but 💩 happens, we want better, cheaper, fast
You can't simply make more if the products is not selling. Mach E is aging. It is an EV based on an ICE platform. Not SDV. Lightning was doing pretty well and looks like it is crushed by the gawd awful Cybertruck. How is that possible being a variant of the most successful pick-up in history. I am rooting for Ford. Hope it can turn around, but it has to come up with good EV products.
I don't really blame people who panic. Lack of information can be a big hurdle. I've been making more than $200k passively by just investing through an advisor, and I don't have to do much work. Inflation or no inflation, my finances remain secure. So I really don't blame people who panic
hello from norway I'm retired at 47, went from Grass to Grace. This here reminds me of my transformation from a nobody to good home, honest wife,$35k biweekly and a good daughter full of ❤ I’m forever grateful harriet dixson
Legacy car makers are preprogrammed to fail. None of them can pivot to EVs profitably, just not possible. The only thing they can do is to slow down the inevitable but the end game is the same.
EV division will likely lose money because initial investment and depreciation of that will be there for a while. Without fixed cost, their margin on EV positive. Ford needs scale then they should be fine. I have problem that Ford use this excuse to jack up the price which drove away potential customer
In an EV the battery is about 40% of the cost of the vehicle I gather. China holds the contracts for the resources used to make the batteries. Everyone needs to buy the batteries from China. How can they compete with Chinese manufacturers? The future of automobiles, yet most manufacturers can't make a profit and most motorists don't care for the technology. I don't think it adds up. It's sad the vehicles aren't even more environmentally friendly or less lethal. Personally, I prefer simple technology that is reliable and dies what I expect of it, especially while moving 70 mph. I guess I'm old fashioned.
Ford seemed to lose it's edge a long time ago, when they were into rally sport and giving the working man a great car at an affordable price which appealed to young and not so young alike, then for no reason I could understand they exited from car sport and started giving us also ran products, they still made fast cars that appealed to a certain type but not your average joe
Ford is anything but transparent about their EV earnings. What they are doing is building a case for government relief and a slowdown in the transition to electric transportation by making their loses artificially large. If you calculate the cost of building a car, the difference between ICE and EV is the powertrain and battery. Batteries should cost around $100/kWh which means $10,000 for a 100kWh battery. That is not very far from the price of an ICE. Ford is including massive amounts of engineering work to tip the balance for their own reasons.
Sam, Ford cannot automate its factories to the extent that Tesla has... the UAW won't let them. Therefore Ford must make a lot more EVs on the same assembly lines in order to become profitable than Tesla does. Let's say that Tesla became profitable after making 250K of a particular model of car per year. All else (including COGS) being equal, Ford might have to make over 350K of a single model EV to break into profitability... maybe more. This is due to the UAW fighting more automation taking away their jobs. This means that Ford will always be at a significant cost disadvantage to potential competitors that do not have the UAW in their factories.
I asked Google. "No, the United Auto Workers (UAW) has accepted automation in exchange for job security and other benefits. The UAW has said that automation can improve the quality of cars, which can lead to stronger sales and better jobs for remaining autoworkers."
@ Nice on paper but the UAW fights for every position they have a worker in. I know some members. They will accept automation only when forced and only if the job is hard and/or dangerous. For example even in the Ford Lightning factory (that was touted as being their most automated), they still have a person installing the wheels on the EV truck. Sure the worker has a lift and auto-lugnut fastener machine but the person is the one that guides the wheel to sit on the lugs. Why when this same job so is completely automated in so many non-UAW factories?? BTW.... don't trust Google or AI to be thorough. They only gather what the media puts out there.... not necessarily what is real.
Sam, One thing we learned from US dock worker strike is American unions are anti-productivity gains. So having more volume does not necessarily translate to more savings because these assembly or supplier factories won't be investing tech to be more productive with same or less workers, they will actually be paying more for wages and overtime getting more workers (family and friends of existing UAW members) to deepen their problems. Tesla is the only one who can make it work (in the US) because its production environment is de-humanized meaning it's always trying to reduce/eliminate human interventions, mistakes and meddling, so once the machines are dialed in they just churn out product after product and making them better and cheaper. Only way Ford or any US automakers can have a surviving chance is to make their products away from thse anti-productivity unions.
Workers all around the world are resisting automation. In a world of abundance, made possible by automation, what do people do when they are no longer needed to do jobs? If we can hold it together without killing each other, that's where we are headed and we need to be thinking about how all of that is going to work.
@@rassabossa4554 exactly......who will look after all those displaced people before they start a revolution? Who would have thought that having no income would allow so much relaxation and enjoyment of life. Unions are fighting back because they know what the consequences are..............an indifferent employer and an indifferent government. I believe changes will be forced upon us because we are too stupid to anticipate them.
Sam, the design of the EVs Ford has isn't cost-effective (on the manufacturing side ) enough to offset if they make mass quality. It may take 2 more generations before they nail that down.
Tesla is selling its cars at cost or below, Ford is doing the same with its EV’s, the Europeans as well, and so are all the myriads of Chinese EV manufacturers, BYD, MG, etc, they’re all losing money on every EV to remain in the market. Anybody that can count from one to ten can see this is totally bonkers and unsustainable and there’s going to be some huge “gamechanging” (Sam’s favourite word 😮) corporate collapses at some point in the future that will change the EV scene forever.
@andyfreeze4072 Go back through Sam's posts. A while back he said Tesla was either losing money on every car they sold, or sold at cost. He showed the numbers. There was an article in the AFR (Australian Financial Review) mid year about it as well. And the AFR also quoted the New York Times. Forbes magazine also had a similar article focusing on Tesla accepting bitcoin for new cars. And Musk is trying to sort the bitcoin collapse out, you surely would have read about that. Tesla may well still be in the green as Musk has other income sources (those mega size industrial batteries for example) but the car side of the business is locked in mortal combat with the Chinese.
make more yes, but dont have 3 or 4 trim levels, it just dilutes the power of scale. Look at simplifying the manufacturing process. Tesla did it, just follow what they do. License technology from tesla, like 48v system. The need to stop doing shit different because they can........see what best practice is and follow. The Lightning has been an unmitigated disaster. It was rushed to market with a "same as always" approach to building them.
Ford may have to do a Phoenix. The "regular" Ford company may crash and burn. But Ford has this separate EV project that is run outside the normal Ford structure. Jim Farley has talked about it and it's isolated that even he, Ford's CEO, doesn't have access to the project grounds. Post bankruptcy we might see an EV company that operates more like Tesla emerging under the Ford brand name. If Ford can financially and legally keep their EV company from going down with their ICEV operations we could have Ford EVs and post-bankruptcy we might see a very much smaller Ford making large pickups and SUVs for a dwindling market. Or the market might have shrunk too much to support those activities. Tech transitions are brutal.
Here in the Netherlands Ford is almost dead already. Throughout the ' 80, '90, '00 Ford consistently sold between 35k and 50k cars per year here. Afterwards the decline came gradually. With 2024 being the lowest so far, with sales up to October of only 10k units. Ford just doesn’t have an appealing offering for the European market. For comparison Tesla is now at 21k units, Hyundai at 16k and Kia at 30k. Total market 33% BEV, 46% Hybrids (Plugin and others) and only 19% ordinary petrol.
Just let china produce all the EVs, Europe and the us should send money to them to invest and make their manufacturing even cheaper. Everything we buy in the shops is made in china anyway. No one complains when they buy their big TVs or trainers from a local store, made in china. The UK made a big effort to travel half way round the globe in wooden ships to develop the Chinese trade.
US unemployment is under 5% which is considered full employment. There are always some people between jobs due to layoffs, company failures, etc. and some small part of the population is made up by people no one wants as an employee.
Always liked Fords.. good cars, cheap parts, inventor of the production line 100 years ago. The astute move would be for the US govt to seek partnering with the best Chinese car co.s to import the technology Ford et al need to be competitive and have a good product. Not tarriffs! Just like the Chinese did with the Germans and US 20 years ago, if you remember. Or just reverse engineer them...
they already reverse engineer "them". Its just that americans are so far behind already, where to start ......oh i know, design easy and low cost into manufacture......
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Ford has new EV production and battery factories starting to come online next year. They have a lot of catching up to do from a decade of messing around with compliance cars no one wanted, but they're on the right track.
But could they possible make profitable EVs in large enough numbers to cover their debts?
We will see,
hard to come back from losing $30k to $50k loss per vehicle ..
😢
they have to swing the right way to cut $40k to $60k just to be making a profit in their EVs.
It costs $40k to $60k to make some of their ice ..
f-150s
It's like they are giving away an f-150 away with every EV they sell today .. 😂😂
Cars that people don’t want is the wrong track. They should have skipped mass production of loser EVs until they got it right
@@bobwallace9753 Ironic isn't it that the only reason Ford is keeping from going under is due to their profitable ICE division. They've produced so many EVs that are piling up in yards that they can't sell at a profit and that not too many people want to buy.
😂❤ great work everyone involved with your show 🎉
They see that Tesla's big advantage is the factories.The machine that makes the machine.Never stopping from making better parts and cutting those you don,t need,Controlling your COG's
Not that the personality of a CEO must be the determining factor, but Farley seems to be a genuinely nice guy and also very switched on as to the EV revolution. If Ford went down on his watch, it wouldn’t be because he was blind to what’s happening in China and Tesla. He’s in charge of a massive sailing ship company after steam ships are already sailing the seas.
He seems lovely man now he's struggling to catch up and cannot fault Tesla or BYD. I bet he hasn't always been this way. He's got no choice but to be nice really. I do genuinely like him ❤
Unfortunately for him understanding the problem and fixing the problem requires the skills and time to do so. The big 3 are racing against time to avoid a business extinction event caused primary by greed and a lack of vision. Beyond that Ford has two other massive problems: Price and Quality. In the 1990's Ford stood for Fix Or Repair Daily - I'm not sure that perception has changed much. Add to that no lack of $80K truck offerings - its not rocket science knowing what the issue is here.
And he is a proper ‘petrol head’ - he races historic vehicles, it’s nice to see a leader of an automotive company have that kind of passion for the product.
@TheLDunn1 Yes, but he's also a big fan of EVs too.
I think he was given the reins and the goahead too late. The Titanic could have been saved had an order to change course happened early enough.
“As the CEO believes”? I can’t envision Farley stepping up to a microphone at an investor event, tapping on the mic, and stating to the audience: ladies and gents: we are fracked!!!
Great analysis. Thank you. Ford and VW are at least trying to survive, while carmakers from my country Japan still refuse to face the reality. Lame. The past summer will be remembered as the turning point of auto industry hegemony.
Mazda, would be the worse !
Trying = not succeeding. Tesla simply succeeds.
@@mixalis6168Subaru would be the worst hit.
Because deep down Akiyo Toyoda already knows Japan’s auto industry has lost the EV wars, now they are trying to look for alternatives that China still hasn’t an edge on.
I guess first time in a while Japan is dead last in new technology
A lot of Ford's recalls are due to their procurement dept buying cheap parts rather than more expensive, better quality, parts. Save a penny, pay a dollar.
Good on Ford, it looks like they might survive. GM seems to survive by lying.
Government motors
@ No more bailouts !
@@andrewsaint6581 should be renamed to Gorki Avtomoticiski Zavod, not much difference in essence
I could not get to test drive or see a Mach E in my area and there are two dealerships in the area. Sales people didn’t care to follow up.
Ford works extremely hard to retain its crown as Recall King.
All legacy car makers will be smaller for the two reasons of more EV competitors and a lower overall demand for car ownership.
Sam, buying "huge amounts" at a discount works only if they can be sold. Or else you have inventory bloat, storage costs and depreciation. Business 101...
Sam…Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity….I don’t care how much revenue a company makes, if it’s not making profits, it’s going bust sooner or later!
I would agree with you but Ford got the guy who help design the model y and well there platform at some point we break cover.....
I'm sure these results for the EV Division also have some built-in tax-write off elements.
Still a better strategy than not participating in the race and expecting EVs to go away
Tesla has only two high volume models, but not only that, they also share 70% of the parts. Ford has Mach-E, F-150 Lightning, e-Transit, Explorer and Capri. The only two with anything in common are based on VW's platform, so the volume gains probably mostly go to VW.
Gudday mate praying w/faith
Good, clear, logical thinking. Thank you, Sam.
Very welcome
How long did it take for Tesla to show a profit, come on!!
Ouch! Not a surprise though
It takes time to pay down new equipment cost robotics etc ..once paid down profits sore...
Afternoon bro
I can help Ford a bit just watching this video ..
The machine doing whatever it's doing at 7:28 looks like it's in slow motion..
Turn up the speed on that thing and pretty much every other machine....😂
That should save some bucks . 😂
I thought it was your solar panels and home battery that kept the lights on. I doubt Ford truly makes those losses per car. Profits get taxed. Thus they must always report losses so they can evade tax.
You could do that once. But the accounting rule will cause the number to shake out in the end. Or are you claiming they a Hige criminal activity like Enron ?
We are in the End Game now.... That is the ICE end game!
Yes god gave you a direct msg call and told you, brilliant
Obviously Tesla from the beginning was about how to get costs down. That meant sparse interiors, few parts, and gigacasting. Until mainstream automakers start doing the same they are forever going to have high priced EVs. So building a lot is not going to solve anything.
Cheers bro
The Ford brand has always been a staple in the US. They have their following just like Tesla. Their PU trucks and delivery vans are everywhere so if they can keep that market they should be fine. They also have enough legacy models like the Mustang, Bronco, and the SUVs to compete as long as they can become more efficient building them. As to software, they should just license Tesla FSD or something equivalent rather than build their own. That ship has sailed and will likely be narrowed down to a select few platforms, like with Android and IOS. Or it could go the route of smart TV brands with a variety of clunky proprietary platforms
Volumes, horizontal integration, higher assembly output/hr, and rationalized assembly car concept...., those are keys to success of TESLA. What Ford did for mass producing cheapers cars TESLA did for EV s
Not true. Volume does not equate to profits necessarily. When you have a product that is inefficient and full of complexity, your problems grow.
Elon is right. Tesla makes decent profits on EVs and BYD makes slim ones. The Chinese companies are trying to establish economies of scale while haemorrhaging cash. Basically buying market share today in the hopes that they make a profit tomorrow. Tesla squeezed out all the costs at the design stage and not only scale but time has lowered costs.
Tesla lost money for a decade. Economies of scale are enjoyed only when a product reaches scale.
@@bobwallace9753 both go together bro.....a double approach thats working
Ford’s seems to be selling good in Laos, but yet to see any Ford EV’s at their dealership…
BYD shark please
Why? With all the reviews I've seen , I haven't really been impressed with the shark. The only thing that all the reviewers are going gaga over it is that they are best at price and value. That is extremely important if all you care about is price, but I am hoping the new ranger EV is a way better truck and I am sure it will be? Can they keep the price down so it's competitive? That will be the key. If we can get a better EV truck for a competitive price, why in the world would you ever choose a shark. Hopefully the BYD shark is not the new standard of trucks because I am not willing to settle for that.
@darpompie4354 We will see, the Ranger EV might be competitive in the US because of the tariffs. In Australia and China, like for like, probably going tobe double the price.
Don't forhet these are meant to be workhorses, value is extremely important in that segment.
If one buys it in the city to compensate his size, then it's the EV Raptor I guess...
Great video Sam-clear and well reasoned!!!
Legacy auto continues to shoot themselves in the foot pushing extreme EV Fear Uncertainty Doubt. Why would a dealer sell an EV, something that is different and scary. Boo! An EV sale is a lost Internal Combustion Engine sale.
Short term profits rule while the marketshare collapse accelerates (just as the Oracle that used to be from Melbourne) has predicted for three years. My legacy auto stock shorts paid off earlier for Ford and GM, Stelantis now and Toyota and Honda are next. Thanks to The Electric Vikings analytical gifts. Thanks, mate.
Dealers typically don't make much money from new car sales. They make their money from parts and service. EVs don't need the sort of parts and service that would keep dealers in business.
I love Ford too. In America and European care makers need to copy to fight it together. There has to be some sort of alliance on battery manufacturing and supply chain.Unless they control it, they can not compete with Chinese manufacturers.Once they have battery supply in control they can compete on brand and design. USA manufacturers can only compete if they join forces. No USA manufacturer (other than Tesla) has the capacity or capability to compete with Chinese manufacturing prowess.
The loss gives Ford space to spin out the EV division to a separate company. Guess which will survive?
That is the plan from the bringing of Ford Blue. Down with the dealer model !!🎉
He, Farley, was talking to Robert from everything electric, and he still thinks EV's with lithium batteries catch fire a lot. Unless he's changed the plan to make a fiesta EV, at £16-18K, he may as well look for a new job
Does Tesla’s profit include their carbon credits? (around $10 Billion over last 6 years). Be interesting to see what their core profit is without carbon credits and local govt incentives.
Average cost to produce their EV is $35k, COGS. Selling price is $45k. What does your math say about more car sold 6 years from now? Tesla sells 1.8M x $10k in profit = $18B in profit. What other states incentive? Instead of buy zev credits why don't others make more EV or pay the fine? Oh right, Tesla is actually helping them to meet the regulation standard because they have not been competent. Without ZEV credits from Tesla, the other manufacturers would be up to their neck on fines.
Yes, Tesla's bottom line profits includes ZEV credits. But Tesla is profitable without those credits. Tesla receives no incentives from governments with the exception of some property tax breaks which states provide so that they can make more tax money from employees.
The best plan is to shut the whole boondoggle down before they go bankrupt.
Just because Ford was paying the most on warrantee claims does not mean they had the lowest quality.
Rather than most problems needed fixing, what metric would you use?
hahahahaha, thats double speak with no self awareness....classic....
In a few years, the ONLY vehicles Ford will be selling are pickup trucks and even then, ONLY in the North American market.
This is sad for me because Ford was the first two vehicles I drove after getting my license: the Mustang and the Probe. Sentimentality.
I predict that people will start living in vans in record numbers and the Ford Promaster EV sales will skyrocket and the company will be ok.
this is farley. so, they'll be living in a van down by the river
Ford is losing less money than you think. The Ford CEO said the electric division is paying the ICE division to make the cars for them. This allows Ford to overcharge the electric division to move money around internally to move profits where they want. Then there are the fines that Ford does not need to pay because of the emission laws. These fines are big, over a billion.
Interesting especially since Ford have recently been handed billions of dollars from the US federal government to build a massive EV and battery plant in Tennessee.
China currently produces around double US battery manufacturing output.
Chinese car breaks record and drives 2,200 km without refueling or charging.
The D7 DMH, plug-in hybrid sedan from Chinese manufacturer Roewe, has set a world record for range by driving 2,208 km without having to refuel or charge, according to the Guinness Book.
I thought EV sales were going through the roof?
EV sales are doing ok for Tesla.
1.3 million Teslas sold at a profit in 2022.
1.8 million sold at a profit in 2023.
They are, just not for legacy auto.
@@doriangray6985 In Australia EV sales have slumped, only 8% of the new car market since January 2023. Hybrids are doing well and ICE car sales have increased.
Ford needs to bring back something simple and basic Ford Escort Ford Pinto 90s style F-150s more delete options on vehicles
Good luck with Ford
Seems like the only hope for ford is to come up with many new revolutionary systems and manufacturing processes to stay in the game ' I've always been a believer in the keepin it simple method like musks motto ' if its not needed then delete it altogether
Ford's problem, like GM and Chrysler.. batteries. If they don't have batteries that can compete with BYD and CATL's best 6C EV in range, price, and charge times, their EVs aren't attractive to most American consumers.
thats just a mantra. Americans dont want to pay over price anymore, much like the rest of the world has been doing for years. At the right price, most americans would be outright dumb not to embrace EVs. As EVs get cheaper and ICE cars get expensive, the hip pocket will rule.
@@andyfreeze4072 I included price of batteries as part of equation. If Americans are getting too short a range, pay too high a price and have to wait around for the car to charge most won't buy an EV. As soon as batteries can compete with leading Chinese ones adoption will be swift. Even most of the dummies that deny global warming and EV haters because of it would buy one.
No, not make more. SELL more!
Cough, cough...Mary...
Ford needs a software platform and to be a vertically oriented manufacturer rather than an assembler.
I wonder, if Tesla only produced the model Y, how many Model 3 customers would buy a Model Y instead, and how many customers they would they actually lose.
Less parts less employees less stock on shelves less machines ...EV profits will blow away ICE auto manufacturing...by 2027 to 2030 by a factor of ten ..
Yes, indeed. Less employees, less parts, less maintenance, and evs are double the price of a thermic car. GENIUS 😂
Ford has a chance of surviving in a greatly diminished state, but it must start buying deals with Tesla and not just on FSD. Of all the legacy OEMs, Ford is ahead but it is far behind Tesla, China, and Korea.
Ford Ranger PHEV or EV need to be priced competitively as Chinese EVs are going to take over
I liked Ford, I had so many Cortinas mk1 to 5 inclusive, escorts, Capris etc. Yes they WERE great cars but so was my vhs VIDEO recorder and my Cannon cameras. Time to move over as Ford just held back as long as they could. Now it's time to say goodbye. Shame but 💩 happens, we want better, cheaper, fast
Jim Farley is going to be living in a van down by the river
You can't simply make more if the products is not selling. Mach E is aging. It is an EV based on an ICE platform. Not SDV. Lightning was doing pretty well and looks like it is crushed by the gawd awful Cybertruck. How is that possible being a variant of the most successful pick-up in history. I am rooting for Ford. Hope it can turn around, but it has to come up with good EV products.
Elon has told them, its about the factory stupid. Yet everyone designs a new car/truck and thinks that will fix things
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its obvious what Ford, VW and Stellantis has to do they have to sign up to Teslas FSD and get as much of Tesla in there vehicles
What is Ford these days?
I have no idea what they are trying to do
Legacy car makers are preprogrammed to fail. None of them can pivot to EVs profitably, just not possible. The only thing they can do is to slow down the inevitable but the end game is the same.
What car he is driving ?
A Tesla cause he KNOWS TH FUTURE
Sure hope Ford motor company has regulatory credit money
There are dumped n destroyed
The new Ford Ranger EV will only sell well in the US where they artificially don't have Chinese competition.
Can you say "Chicken?"
Sounds like all legacy auto in 5-10 years. 😂
EV division will likely lose money because initial investment and depreciation of that will be there for a while. Without fixed cost, their margin on EV positive. Ford needs scale then they should be fine. I have problem that Ford use this excuse to jack up the price which drove away potential customer
In an EV the battery is about 40% of the cost of the vehicle I gather. China holds the contracts for the resources used to make the batteries. Everyone needs to buy the batteries from China. How can they compete with Chinese manufacturers? The future of automobiles, yet most manufacturers can't make a profit and most motorists don't care for the technology. I don't think it adds up. It's sad the vehicles aren't even more environmentally friendly or less lethal.
Personally, I prefer simple technology that is reliable and dies what I expect of it, especially while moving 70 mph. I guess I'm old fashioned.
Tesla lost money at their beginning. It is the growing pain for every manufacturers including Ford.
My suggested solution is to gove the CEO a 50% raise AND a bonus for staying on the job.
Ford seemed to lose it's edge a long time ago, when they were into rally sport and giving the working man a great car at an affordable price which appealed to young and not so young alike, then for no reason I could understand they exited from car sport and started giving us also ran products, they still made fast cars that appealed to a certain type but not your average joe
Ford is anything but transparent about their EV earnings. What they are doing is building a case for government relief and a slowdown in the transition to electric transportation by making their loses artificially large. If you calculate the cost of building a car, the difference between ICE and EV is the powertrain and battery. Batteries should cost around $100/kWh which means $10,000 for a 100kWh battery. That is not very far from the price of an ICE. Ford is including massive amounts of engineering work to tip the balance for their own reasons.
Ford is headed towards not selling cars at all, they are headed towards being a truck company exclusively
So when will the Ford CEO sleep at the factory making sure they get it right? Oh, never mind
Ford should close down or sell off. 🎉
Sam, Ford cannot automate its factories to the extent that Tesla has... the UAW won't let them.
Therefore Ford must make a lot more EVs on the same assembly lines in order to become profitable than Tesla does.
Let's say that Tesla became profitable after making 250K of a particular model of car per year. All else (including COGS) being equal, Ford might have to make over 350K of a single model EV to break into profitability... maybe more. This is due to the UAW fighting more automation taking away their jobs.
This means that Ford will always be at a significant cost disadvantage to potential competitors that do not have the UAW in their factories.
I asked Google. "No, the United Auto Workers (UAW) has accepted automation in exchange for job security and other benefits. The UAW has said that automation can improve the quality of cars, which can lead to stronger sales and better jobs for remaining autoworkers."
@ Nice on paper but the UAW fights for every position they have a worker in. I know some members. They will accept automation only when forced and only if the job is hard and/or dangerous.
For example even in the Ford Lightning factory (that was touted as being their most automated), they still have a person installing the wheels on the EV truck. Sure the worker has a lift and auto-lugnut fastener machine but the person is the one that guides the wheel to sit on the lugs.
Why when this same job so is completely automated in so many non-UAW factories??
BTW.... don't trust Google or AI to be thorough. They only gather what the media puts out there.... not necessarily what is real.
Sam, One thing we learned from US dock worker strike is American unions are anti-productivity gains. So having more volume does not necessarily translate to more savings because these assembly or supplier factories won't be investing tech to be more productive with same or less workers, they will actually be paying more for wages and overtime getting more workers (family and friends of existing UAW members) to deepen their problems. Tesla is the only one who can make it work (in the US) because its production environment is de-humanized meaning it's always trying to reduce/eliminate human interventions, mistakes and meddling, so once the machines are dialed in they just churn out product after product and making them better and cheaper. Only way Ford or any US automakers can have a surviving chance is to make their products away from thse anti-productivity unions.
Workers all around the world are resisting automation. In a world of abundance, made possible by automation, what do people do when they are no longer needed to do jobs?
If we can hold it together without killing each other, that's where we are headed and we need to be thinking about how all of that is going to work.
@@rassabossa4554 exactly......who will look after all those displaced people before they start a revolution? Who would have thought that having no income would allow so much relaxation and enjoyment of life. Unions are fighting back because they know what the consequences are..............an indifferent employer and an indifferent government. I believe changes will be forced upon us because we are too stupid to anticipate them.
Sam, the design of the EVs Ford has isn't cost-effective (on the manufacturing side ) enough to offset if they make mass quality. It may take 2 more generations before they nail that down.
Tesla is in big trouble!
Tesla is selling its cars at cost or below, Ford is doing the same with its EV’s, the Europeans as well, and so are all the myriads of Chinese EV manufacturers, BYD, MG, etc, they’re all losing money on every EV to remain in the market. Anybody that can count from one to ten can see this is totally bonkers and unsustainable and there’s going to be some huge “gamechanging” (Sam’s favourite word 😮) corporate collapses at some point in the future that will change the EV scene forever.
are you nuts? the profit figures clearly show Tesla have a high margin on all cars they sell.
@andyfreeze4072 Go back through Sam's posts. A while back he said Tesla was either losing money on every car they sold, or sold at cost. He showed the numbers. There was an article in the AFR (Australian Financial Review) mid year about it as well. And the AFR also quoted the New York Times. Forbes magazine also had a similar article focusing on Tesla accepting bitcoin for new cars. And Musk is trying to sort the bitcoin collapse out, you surely would have read about that. Tesla may well still be in the green as Musk has other income sources (those mega size industrial batteries for example) but the car side of the business is locked in mortal combat with the Chinese.
make more yes, but dont have 3 or 4 trim levels, it just dilutes the power of scale. Look at simplifying the manufacturing process. Tesla did it, just follow what they do. License technology from tesla, like 48v system. The need to stop doing shit different because they can........see what best practice is and follow. The Lightning has been an unmitigated disaster. It was rushed to market with a "same as always" approach to building them.
ford put buggy whip manufacturers out of biz. now its ford's turn to face the music
Tesla's competition is coming All over them self 😂😂
If FORD wants to make money, become a Xiaomi SU7 cars dealer in the US.
Ford may have to do a Phoenix. The "regular" Ford company may crash and burn. But Ford has this separate EV project that is run outside the normal Ford structure. Jim Farley has talked about it and it's isolated that even he, Ford's CEO, doesn't have access to the project grounds. Post bankruptcy we might see an EV company that operates more like Tesla emerging under the Ford brand name.
If Ford can financially and legally keep their EV company from going down with their ICEV operations we could have Ford EVs and post-bankruptcy we might see a very much smaller Ford making large pickups and SUVs for a dwindling market. Or the market might have shrunk too much to support those activities. Tech transitions are brutal.
Ford USA battery facilities will save Ford, period.
Here in the Netherlands Ford is almost dead already. Throughout the ' 80, '90, '00 Ford consistently sold between 35k and 50k cars per year here. Afterwards the decline came gradually. With 2024 being the lowest so far, with sales up to October of only 10k units. Ford just doesn’t have an appealing offering for the European market.
For comparison Tesla is now at 21k units, Hyundai at 16k and Kia at 30k.
Total market 33% BEV, 46% Hybrids (Plugin and others) and only 19% ordinary petrol.
The Farley Fool continues the slide. Dump this dope. Set up a new EV division, new boss. Let FF push ICE stuff.
If they survive and bring out a 2025 Mach-E, I'd buy one next year.
Just let china produce all the EVs, Europe and the us should send money to them to invest and make their manufacturing even cheaper. Everything we buy in the shops is made in china anyway. No one complains when they buy their big TVs or trainers from a local store, made in china. The UK made a big effort to travel half way round the globe in wooden ships to develop the Chinese trade.
VW profits -42%
Ford revenues -42%
US unemployment +42%
Hitchhiker's Guide turns out the question was: how does the West collapse? 😅
US unemployment is under 5% which is considered full employment. There are always some people between jobs due to layoffs, company failures, etc. and some small part of the population is made up by people no one wants as an employee.
Always liked Fords.. good cars, cheap parts, inventor of the production line 100 years ago. The astute move would be for the US govt to seek partnering with the best Chinese car co.s to import the technology Ford et al need to be competitive and have a good product. Not tarriffs! Just like the Chinese did with the Germans and US 20 years ago, if you remember. Or just reverse engineer them...
they already reverse engineer "them". Its just that americans are so far behind already, where to start ......oh i know, design easy and low cost into manufacture......