I obtained an old Winter and Company piano a few months ago. The amount of work I've been able to do on it to get it working nicely, from tuning to repairs to the action are all thanks to the magic of youtube. Thank you for making videos like this.
👍Awsome! With your explanation that uses a real example associated with the spring tension of a key, (minute 16:30), I finally managed to solve my problem. At first I thought it was humidity. But the fact that the problem was only within one key, led me to investigate a little more. And in fact you were the only person who presented a concrete situation of malfunction and with the corresponding corrective action. Congratulations
So many critics of this wonderful video (even deriding the background music) but I suppose this is to be expected from a bunch of RPTs known for their fanatical perfectionism (said with respect and a wink). Such wonderful close-up images, great action shots of the process, and the truly remarkable narration explaining, in rare detail, each component's function and how all these parts interact. You've provided a great service and splendid learning tool for us non-professional Piano Technician wana-be types who wisely let you folks handle the serious work.
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 finally a video that explained some of the mechanics of things and how to adjust them in depth. Perfect for an amateur like me who’s been tasked with maintaining the old upright in our living room now that my daughter is playing in earnest. I do plenty of guitar repair, but pianos have been like a foreign language!
Well done. A nice refresher on doing all the things that ought to be done to a piano that most people don't want to pay to have done and so therefore a lot of us don't get to do it that often. Thank you for putting that together.
One of the best videos I've come across, crystal clear, concise but not hurried and every step explained. I just wish you would do another video on the final stages. I have a 120 year old Broadwood overstrung semi which I am slowly reconditioning after a previous owner messed about with it. Very challenging but immensely rewarding. It was this video that made me think I could take it on and at least make it playable. Thanks so much.
This is the single most fantastic tech work video I have ever seen! thank you! may I ask the measurements of your regulation table? I love everything about this video!
I own a 1910 era Bluthner and since 1996 timeframe. Sitting idle since 2005, 50% of the 80+ key wippen action is sluggish. A novice, I look to TH-cam for suggestions and always amazed at the tips I can get but frown when someone takes the time to produce a decent video, makes comments about how to do something yet doesn't reveal the products used and this is down to what sandpaper is used to clean up the hammers also. I agree that the video doesn't need music in the background but hey, glad it isn't rap. Now 1/3/2023 I have several wippins to repair and one where the hammer end is broken off. Whether a Bluthner, Steinway, Baldwin, etc. the key thing is learning something new and that includes sources to buy equipment from. Philosophy has always been...if someone else can build it or repair it, with patience I can also. How nice it would be to not just have a tutorial like this but where in the world is best to buy repair tools, solvent, etc. from.
loved the video. i am going to try some o0f the stuff on my 1910 grand. I know the design is a bit different... still I think I can many things that I learnt from this video
Wow, I really enjoyed this video about action regulations. Thank you so much for placing the video. What is the name of the lubricant you used after polishing the front rail pins?
After the hammers have had the grooves removed, does that change the voicing that the hammers had to start with? Would it change the quality of sound that the piano had prior to groove removal? Thanks, Gary
After seeing some of these videos, I'm having trouble seeing how these companies even can make money. My parents bought a new Yamaha C3 back in 2001 for $22,000. After materials, labor, shipping to the showroom, they can't be making more than a few hundred dollars per grand piano. It's not hard to understand why only two companies are still making pianos in the US.
@@joslinnick There were 1000+ manufacturers in America at the peak (1910). My Krakhaur grand (Louis XVI style case) cost $650 new in 1935 at a furniture store in Los Angeles. Little money was ever made in pianos.
@@fnersch3367 I think it was 3000.I heard 500 in Chicago alone. Of course, then, the piano was the ONLY household entertainment, it was, for them, the TV and the radio and the phonograph and you weren't having pianos shipped from foreign countries.
That McLube product you were spraying around goes hard. I use it too. Doesn't it make the balance rail felt & front touch felt go rock hard? Not to mention the set off buttons?
stemart1641 You are correct. It is a mold release solution for tool and die making. It is slick, but wears off in layers (as several coats were applied) and can make BR pins squeak with repeated use. (Had it happen on a concert hall piano) Protek Prolube is much better as a key pin lubricant and will never build up layers like MacLube can.
J Buzz. Sorry, I didn't realise you'd responded. The stuff I use is called Sailkote by McLube. I'm fairly certain it's what they're using. I use it in it's liquid form. I pour it into a finger nail polish bottle. And I wouldn't be putting it on jack tips either - it's excellent for the toes though. I also use it on rep spring crooks, speshly when there's very little or no repetition. It came as a real shock to me, just how excellent this stuff is, a few years ago when I was told about it. I'd like to look into Protek Prolube though. Yeah, good vid, I agree.
Please help, are you using McLube 444 or 1728 (from Pianotek for instance) ore one with same name , made by Harken, and used on sailing boats ? In the video I seem to see the Harken McLube ... THank you so much (difficult for us being in Europe to buy some products) . Best regards
Hello , nice resume of maintenance operations thanks for making that It is instructive. Comments : I noticed that only mc lube (the red spray can) works fine on key pins. We are approaching wd 40 in terms of philosophy, but it dries better. I do not find it easily so I am back to old deer grease . I also do not clean totally the balance hole as the grasy gunk stabilise the hole. Other dry lubes tend to loose efficiency too soon, and even get sticky (or even abrasive, as a grey one used in 5ge 70 80 in Germany) Knuckles, they can be filed depending of the "leather " quality old leathers are often good and you change the 10 mm knuckle for a +-9.5 one doing so on worn knuckles. (100 grit) in standard wear 329 or 220 grit open the nap for talc or teflon. Ironing good leather works fine . It allows to keep original knuckles on some old light actions mounted with good quality leather. Best regards from France and good luck for next times
Hello Dave, I am reconditioning a grand baldwin. There is a tape underneath the shank flange where they get screwed on. What can I use if I want to replace it? Unfortunately taking off the flange peals off that tape in pieces. Thank you very much
There's a lot to be said for adjustable repetition springs, without the bending procedure. The Schwander single-spring wippen has been in use for years, including some top-rate concert grands, Also, the Schimmel patent screw adjustment for the top half of the butterfly spring is available if you know where to look. Of course the two companies that adhere to the old system are Steinway and Yamaha, Go figure.
I was in the piano business for many years....I enjoyed the video...I never liked the bend to adjust rep lever springs..Renner actions has the right idea with screw adjustment...also note that the spring and loop arrangement has the added benefit of increasing tension on the jack when hammer is in the back check to get the jack back under the knuckle quickly for superb repetition.
What does a job like this cost? I'm sure it varies depending on how much needs to be replaced or adjusted. Where does the pricing usually start, ballpark?
Some of my keys emit a CLICKING sound during the DROP, and I can't locate why? I'll try using the nylon powder and buffing the leather to see if that works. I didn't know each key has ANOTHER metal spring WIPPIN at the bottom (an anit-tension to the regular-tension spring) that is difficult to get to. That's probably why I have WEAK keys. I once tried to fix a cracked bottom contact-claw by gluing wooden TOOTHPICKS together like a splint, but it didn't hold because I didn't realize the tremendous spring pressures involved. 🎹
A comment on : "why do we use talcum powder or fine teflon on knuckles ?" OF course it is a lube, but one of the main advantage is that no graphite will transfer on the knuckles leather because of that intermediary media (when Graphite was used on the whippens)
Seongtaek Kwon This is not DIY! You can do expensive permanent damage to a piano and its action by doing things like this without proper training and experience. Don't try this at home.
Perhaps this is a dumb question, or more to the point it shows my lack of knowledge, but the key pins on my 1921 Christman Studio Grand are not round. They measure .210 front to back but .156 (or so) side to side. I realize the pianos age makes for strange problems, but could 100 years of use actually have made the side-to-side measurement that much smaller than front to back of the key pins? bTw... love your video, and your narration is excellent.
Front rail key pins are never round, only balance rail pins. That being said, I have seen older Chickerings that often had oval shaped balance rail pins. And much smaller than the average (.146) . It’s not likely from heavy use.
The front pins are oval so you can turn them a few degrees to make up for the wear of the bushings. There is a special tool to do this. For the balance pins this is not possible because they are not accessible from underneath.
@@christianwouters6764 Thanks. My next challenge is going to be trying to replace 100-year-old wippens. Christman has been out of business since about 1940 and nobody I've contacted can supply a suitable replacement. Renner is about the closest but will still require modification. W.N.&G. made the original action (if that's the right term) and can supply a vintage style wippen but manufactured with modern composite material instead of wood. I don't want to use composite wippens (black) in a 1921 Christman. It would be kind of hard to refer to it as a 1921 when it has composite wippens. I've gone to great lengths to repair and restore the original soundboard; it would be a shame to denigrate the esthetics of the piano by using wippens that so clearly do not belong.
@@edluna5224 piano action is indeed the right word. If you take out a front key pin you can see that the part in the wood is perfectly round so the entire pin can be turned without being twisted.
The only 5hinh to keep in mind when using lubricants is "will I need to glue something there some day" particularly when it comes to center pins, teflon is a hassle if one want to change the cloth. Rinc8ng with isopropanol 99.9 % is the only method I find to help me
You're easing the bottom hole of the keys incorrectly. You should be using the tool from the bottom of the key and have the tool turned so as to only ease the sides of the hole when you are first inserting the tool. Then when you think you have eased it enough, just barely turn the tool as you are at the same time pulling it out so as to just barely ease the front and back of the hole. The way you are doing it, by coming in from the top, you are easing only the front and back of the hole which is what you are to avoid. That is why the tool has the flat sides on it so you will NOT ease the front and back of the hole. It is NOT made that way so you can come in from the top. You can actually damage the key and end up with key-pully or key slop by easing the front and back of the hole.
Just to clarify, I'm not inserting the tool far enough in the key hole to allow the non-round part of the tool to affect the key hole. The useful part of the tool tip is completely round. The flat sided section of the tool is just for allowing the tool to enter from the top through the bushing.
I am truly VERY SORRY, but, I couldn’t get anything other than that of audio? I’m on an Apple iPadPro and absolutely NO pictures. If my IP address has shown up, please! do contact me. Yours truly, ross
A good video but I would much prefer not to hear that awefully boring piano music in the background. it is a distracting nuisance! Please don't do that again.
I obtained an old Winter and Company piano a few months ago. The amount of work I've been able to do on it to get it working nicely, from tuning to repairs to the action are all thanks to the magic of youtube. Thank you for making videos like this.
Thank you for taking the time to produce this video. It is one of the most comprehensive I have seen on TH-cam.
👍Awsome! With your explanation that uses a real example associated with the spring tension of a key, (minute 16:30), I finally managed to solve my problem. At first I thought it was humidity. But the fact that the problem was only within one key, led me to investigate a little more. And in fact you were the only person who presented a concrete situation of malfunction and with the corresponding corrective action. Congratulations
So many critics of this wonderful video (even deriding the background music) but I suppose this is to be expected from a bunch of RPTs known for their fanatical perfectionism (said with respect and a wink). Such wonderful close-up images, great action shots of the process, and the truly remarkable narration explaining, in rare detail, each component's function and how all these parts interact. You've provided a great service and splendid learning tool for us non-professional Piano Technician wana-be types who wisely let you folks handle the serious work.
Agreed!
The music is rather ugly to say the least. I’d rather just listen to his voice.
Very Easy to understand-Thank you for taking time to produce this video!
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 finally a video that explained some of the mechanics of things and how to adjust them in depth. Perfect for an amateur like me who’s been tasked with maintaining the old upright in our living room now that my daughter is playing in earnest. I do plenty of guitar repair, but pianos have been like a foreign language!
Well done. A nice refresher on doing all the things that ought to be done to a piano that most people don't want to pay to have done and so therefore a lot of us don't get to do it that often. Thank you for putting that together.
Outstanding video! Thanks❤
Fabulous video on the process! Thank you so much for sharing this.
You did an excellent job taking us through action reconditioning and adjustments. Thank you.
This is a great video. I like the level of detail you provided. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
One of the best videos I've come across, crystal clear, concise but not hurried and every step explained. I just wish you would do another video on the final stages. I have a 120 year old Broadwood overstrung semi which I am slowly reconditioning after a previous owner messed about with it.
Very challenging but immensely rewarding. It was this video that made me think I could take it on and at least make it playable. Thanks so much.
I'm so glad you guys made this video! I have often appreciated your craft but honestly don't know much of anything about it...
Well done!
Wow. Who knew? Didn’t realize all involved. That must be an exceptional piano.
Thanks for sharing this video. Can see how much work goes into reconditioning.
E'UN PIACERE VEDERVI ALL'OPERA.....SIETE MAGNIFICI,GRAZIE.
I would love to see a video like this for upright pianos !
This is the single most fantastic tech work video I have ever seen! thank you! may I ask the measurements of your regulation table? I love everything about this video!
I own a 1910 era Bluthner and since 1996 timeframe. Sitting idle since 2005, 50% of the 80+ key wippen action is sluggish. A novice, I look to TH-cam for suggestions and always amazed at the tips I can get but frown when someone takes the time to produce a decent video, makes comments about how to do something yet doesn't reveal the products used and this is down to what sandpaper is used to clean up the hammers also. I agree that the video doesn't need music in the background but hey, glad it isn't rap. Now 1/3/2023 I have several wippins to repair and one where the hammer end is broken off. Whether a Bluthner, Steinway, Baldwin, etc. the key thing is learning something new and that includes sources to buy equipment from. Philosophy has always been...if someone else can build it or repair it, with patience I can also. How nice it would be to not just have a tutorial like this but where in the world is best to buy repair tools, solvent, etc. from.
Thank you, Jeff/David! One more less-dumb pianist about their instrument in the world, thanks to YOU!
EXACTLY what I needed. Thank you! 🙏
Excellent preparatory work--cleaning lubricating alignments. I can do that!
Excellent job!!!!!!
0:52 What substance do you use? " well apply this pro felt material to the felt and it" can you let me know, thank you
VS Profelt, I’ve seen it at Howard Piano Industries.
I've also used a key bushing tightener tool that you might be familiar with which is suited for bushings that still have enough mileage on them.
loved the video. i am going to try some o0f the stuff on my 1910 grand. I know the design is a bit different... still I think I can many things that I learnt from this video
Why not remove the punchings to polish the key frame pins, and replace them for proper regulation.
May I know the chemical you are using for the softening of the felt :)
Wow, I really enjoyed this video about action regulations. Thank you so much for placing the video. What is the name of the lubricant you used after polishing the front rail pins?
I love this video.
hello very good videos!! greetings from Argentina!! what do you put on the keys? with the syringe
After the hammers have had the grooves removed, does that change the voicing that the hammers had to start with? Would it change the quality of sound that the piano had prior to groove removal? Thanks, Gary
yes
What a great video!
What grit paper for sanding the hammer felts?
Now I understand why pianos cost so much to refurbish
After seeing some of these videos, I'm having trouble seeing how these companies even can make money. My parents bought a new Yamaha C3 back in 2001 for $22,000. After materials, labor, shipping to the showroom, they can't be making more than a few hundred dollars per grand piano. It's not hard to understand why only two companies are still making pianos in the US.
@@joslinnick There were 1000+ manufacturers in America at the peak (1910). My Krakhaur grand (Louis XVI style case) cost $650 new in 1935 at a furniture store in Los Angeles. Little money was ever made in pianos.
@@fnersch3367 I think it was 3000.I heard 500 in Chicago alone. Of course, then, the piano was the ONLY household entertainment, it was, for them, the TV and the radio and the phonograph and you weren't having pianos shipped from foreign countries.
That McLube product you were spraying around goes hard. I use it too. Doesn't it make the balance rail felt & front touch felt go rock hard? Not to mention the set off buttons?
stemart1641 You are correct. It is a mold release solution for tool and die making. It is slick, but wears off in layers (as several coats were applied) and can make BR pins squeak with repeated use. (Had it happen on a concert hall piano) Protek Prolube is much better as a key pin lubricant and will never build up layers like MacLube can.
Very good video though.
J Buzz. Sorry, I didn't realise you'd responded. The stuff I use is called Sailkote by McLube. I'm fairly certain it's what they're using. I use it in it's liquid form. I pour it into a finger nail polish bottle. And I wouldn't be putting it on jack tips either - it's excellent for the toes though. I also use it on rep spring crooks, speshly when there's very little or no repetition. It came as a real shock to me, just how excellent this stuff is, a few years ago when I was told about it. I'd like to look into Protek Prolube though. Yeah, good vid, I agree.
sailer/pianist. Mclube is good shit.
Very Helpful.Many Thanks!
Please help, are you using McLube 444 or 1728 (from Pianotek for instance) ore one with same name , made by Harken, and used on sailing boats ? In the video I seem to see the Harken McLube ... THank you so much (difficult for us being in Europe to buy some products) . Best regards
Is this more work items that is typical for a "regulation" ?
This is an excellent video that helps one understand the restoration process. What is the going rate for this type of service?
Hello , nice resume of maintenance operations thanks for making that
It is instructive.
Comments : I noticed that only mc lube (the red spray can) works fine on key pins. We are approaching wd 40 in terms of philosophy, but it dries better.
I do not find it easily so I am back to old deer grease . I also do not clean totally the balance hole as the grasy gunk stabilise the hole.
Other dry lubes tend to loose efficiency too soon, and even get sticky (or even abrasive, as a grey one used in 5ge 70 80 in Germany)
Knuckles, they can be filed depending of the "leather " quality old leathers are often good and you change the 10 mm knuckle for a +-9.5 one doing so on worn knuckles. (100 grit) in standard wear 329 or 220 grit open the nap for talc or teflon.
Ironing good leather works fine . It allows to keep original knuckles on some old light actions mounted with good quality leather.
Best regards from France and good luck for next times
Hello Dave,
I am reconditioning a grand baldwin. There is a tape underneath the shank flange where they get screwed on. What can I use if I want to replace it? Unfortunately taking off the flange peals off that tape in pieces.
Thank you very much
I just inherited a Baldwin grand. How's you project going?
Hello Steve,
I got the project done a while ago, and now retuning a few keys, it is a different weather now.
Thanks for asking.
Moh
There's a lot to be said for adjustable repetition springs, without the bending procedure. The Schwander single-spring wippen has been in use for years, including some top-rate concert grands, Also, the Schimmel patent screw adjustment for the top half of the butterfly spring is available if you know where to look. Of course the two companies that adhere to the old system are Steinway and Yamaha, Go figure.
I was in the piano business for many years....I enjoyed the video...I never liked the bend to adjust rep lever springs..Renner actions has the right idea with screw adjustment...also note that the spring and loop arrangement has the added benefit of increasing tension on the jack when hammer is in the back check to get the jack back under the knuckle quickly for superb repetition.
Best tutorial on youtube! Great teacher. So easy to grasp. Do you have any dvd's with more tutorials?
I would like to know it all hehe.
Very helpful,Thanks!
What does a job like this cost? I'm sure it varies depending on how much needs to be replaced or adjusted. Where does the pricing usually start, ballpark?
Depends on the technician.
Mainly 100 to 300 bucks (for a full on action regulation)
Wat lubrication type do you use?
Hi, how much do you charge for this service? Thank you.
Some of my keys emit a CLICKING sound during the DROP, and I can't locate why? I'll try using the nylon powder and buffing the leather to see if that works. I didn't know each key has ANOTHER metal spring WIPPIN at the bottom (an anit-tension to the regular-tension spring) that is difficult to get to. That's probably why I have WEAK keys. I once tried to fix a cracked bottom contact-claw by gluing wooden TOOTHPICKS together like a splint, but it didn't hold because I didn't realize the tremendous spring pressures involved. 🎹
A comment on : "why do we use talcum powder or fine teflon on knuckles ?" OF course it is a lube, but one of the main advantage is that no graphite will transfer on the knuckles leather because of that intermediary media (when Graphite was used on the whippens)
What Substance do you Use 50 sek.
Interesting. That liquid applicant is called "pro felt"? Did you get from one of the piano supply places like Schaff or Pianotek?
Yep!
What's the dogs name?
Fantastic video! Thank you so much for making this helpful DIY video!
Seongtaek Kwon This is not DIY! You can do expensive permanent damage to a piano and its action by doing things like this without proper training and experience. Don't try this at home.
Where are you located please?
About how many hours of work typically go into action reconditioning?
Perhaps this is a dumb question, or more to the point it shows my lack of knowledge, but the key pins on my 1921 Christman Studio Grand are not round. They measure .210 front to back but .156 (or so) side to side. I realize the pianos age makes for strange problems, but could 100 years of use actually have made the side-to-side measurement that much smaller than front to back of the key pins? bTw... love your video, and your narration is excellent.
Front rail key pins are never round, only balance rail pins. That being said, I have seen older Chickerings that often had oval shaped balance rail pins. And much smaller than the average (.146) . It’s not likely from heavy use.
@@gretchenfarris1625 Thanks. I feel much better now. I thought that might be the case but then again, you can never know what you don't know.
The front pins are oval so you can turn them a few degrees to make up for the wear of the bushings. There is a special tool to do this. For the balance pins this is not possible because they are not accessible from underneath.
@@christianwouters6764 Thanks. My next challenge is going to be trying to replace 100-year-old wippens. Christman has been out of business since about 1940 and nobody I've contacted can supply a suitable replacement. Renner is about the closest but will still require modification. W.N.&G. made the original action (if that's the right term) and can supply a vintage style wippen but manufactured with modern composite material instead of wood. I don't want to use composite wippens (black) in a 1921 Christman. It would be kind of hard to refer to it as a 1921 when it has composite wippens. I've gone to great lengths to repair and restore the original soundboard; it would be a shame to denigrate the esthetics of the piano by using wippens that so clearly do not belong.
@@edluna5224 piano action is indeed the right word. If you take out a front key pin you can see that the part in the wood is perfectly round so the entire pin can be turned without being twisted.
What do you charge for this service?
Would you have any suggestions to stiffing up key action that is too light to the touch?
I would raise key height 2 to 3 mm to stiffen the action. More if necessary to get a stiffer touch.
Spraying lubricant on the felt and the wooden rails, yikes
The only 5hinh to keep in mind when using lubricants is "will I need to glue something there some day" particularly when it comes to center pins, teflon is a hassle if one want to change the cloth. Rinc8ng with isopropanol 99.9 % is the only method I find to help me
Cool video! Thumbs up and thank you for it. May I ask how much that type of extensive service costs on average for a baby grand? Thank you.
Great Job love You boyes
Thanx!
how often should I do this action maitnence to my piano
Depends on how are action is worn.
Where can I purchase the plastic CAULS?
Erwin's Piano Restoration.
Hey David,
I have a Yamaha C3. How much would it cost to send my action to your company and have it reconditioned?
Thanks
Good
Have you use facebook ?
You're easing the bottom hole of the keys incorrectly. You should be using the tool from the bottom of the key and have the tool turned so as to only ease the sides of the hole when you are first inserting the tool. Then when you think you have eased it enough, just barely turn the tool as you are at the same time pulling it out so as to just barely ease the front and back of the hole. The way you are doing it, by coming in from the top, you are easing only the front and back of the hole which is what you are to avoid. That is why the tool has the flat sides on it so you will NOT ease the front and back of the hole. It is NOT made that way so you can come in from the top. You can actually damage the key and end up with key-pully or key slop by easing the front and back of the hole.
You're correct about the sides of the hole, but you come in from the top. This will keep the tool inline with the center of the hole.
I agree with Chuck.
Just to clarify, I'm not inserting the tool far enough in the key hole to allow the non-round part of the tool to affect the key hole. The useful part of the tool tip is completely round. The flat sided section of the tool is just for allowing the tool to enter from the top through the bushing.
I keep watching thinking I could do that. And the the vid keeps on going lok
Wow so complex
No spray lube should be necessary
피아노를 생각하면 어렵고 어렵도다. 가격이 비싸서 새것을 사야 하지 고쳐야 할지.
I am truly VERY SORRY, but, I couldn’t get anything other than that of audio?
I’m on an Apple iPadPro and absolutely NO pictures.
If my IP address has shown up, please! do contact me.
Yours truly,
ross
Wonderful video- but music 😢 spoils it
At this point would just buy new electronic keyboard....
Instead of a 7-foot acoustic grand piano, like a C7? Surely you jest.
A good video but I would much prefer not to hear that awefully boring piano music in the background. it is a distracting nuisance! Please don't do that again.