Do We Have Free Will? with Robert Sapolsky & Neil deGrasse Tyson
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ค. 2024
- Is there a quantum reason we could have free will? Neil deGrasse Tyson and comedian Chuck Nice explore the concept of free will and predetermination with neuroscientist, biologist, and author of Determined: The Science of Life Without Free Will, Robert Sapolsky.
A special thanks from our editors to Robert Sapolsky’s dog.
Could we put an end to the question of whether or not we have free will? Discover “The Hungry Judge Effect” and how little bits of biology affect our actions. We break down a physicist's perspective of free will, The Big Bang, and chaos theory. Is it enough to just feel like we have free will? Why is it an issue to think you have free will if you don’t?
We discuss the difference between free will in big decisions versus everyday decisions. How do you turn out to be the type of person who chooses vanilla ice cream over strawberry? We explore how quantum physics and virtual particles factor into predetermination. Could quantum randomness change the actions of an atom? How can society best account for a lack of free will? Are people still responsible for their actions?
What would Chuck do if he could do anything he wanted? We also discuss the benefits of a society that acknowledges powers outside of our control and scientific advancements made. How is meritocracy impacted by free will? Plus, can you change if people believe in free will if they have no free will in believing so?
Thanks to our Patrons Pro Handyman, Brad K. Daniels, Starman, Stephen Somers, Nina Kane, Paul Applegate, and David Goldberg for supporting us this week.
A special thanks from our editors to Robert Sapolsky’s dog.
NOTE: StarTalk+ Patrons can listen to this entire episode commercial-free.
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00:00 - Introduction: Free Will
3:45 - The Impacts of Biology & The Hungry Judge Effect
9:26 - The Physicist Perspective on Free Will & Chaos Theory
12:15 - Is It Good To Think We Have Free Will?
14:35 - Free Will in Big Decisions vs. Small Decisions
19:43 - Quantum Physics & Randomness
25:25 - Does Lack of Free Will Explain Everything?
29:22 - How Does Society Need to Change?
34:10 - What If You Could Do Anything You Want?
35:00 - How Do Change a Culture If There’s No Free Will?
42:16 - Giving Up Meritocracy
45:17 - Factoring in Accountability
49:12 - Do We Have Free Will To Determine Whether We Believe in Free Will? - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Like this comment when you meet the extra special guest of this episode... 🐶
Thanks for the verity of content on StarTalk, excited with every upload. Thanks to everyone who makes this happen! Lets goooo ( PS- love the puppy
Um, "meet" him?
Neil. I'll tell you my biggest fear is that if someone is a determinist they are almost definitely an atheist, a democrat, and a technocrat. Surely you can realize how such underlying ideas can lead to a George Orwell book. Me, personally, I think the brain is a tool-- just like your hands, a drill, or a hammer. If you mess with any of those tools then the self will not be as able to effectively achieve the goals that the self wishes to achieve. Meaning both can be true: making a bad decision to take drugs is sawing off the tip of a pick axe. And, yes, bad decisions are more common among people of lower socio-economic status-- but the lower socio-economic status also correlates strongly with not having two parents in the home. Not having two parents in the home correlates with the parents not taking responsibility for their actions.
I tend to lean toward prima facie arguments because they tend to be true. I think it violates Occum's Razor to undermine every decision you've ever made by insisting on determinism.
Special guest is Star Talk+ @@michaelccopelandsr7120
I always liked Christopher Hitchens answer to the question of whether or not we have free will. "Of course we do, we have no choice."
What kind of illogical statement is that by Christopher. It's like saying do we have a squared circle? Yes we do! we just don't know how to draw it.
@@ythjkl2881I mean, you can draw a circle that would appear to us as squared, if you choose a space with rectilinear norm L1.
@@Darth_Niki4what's next? A bachelor who isn't married?
They couldn't put the fourth dimension at 90 degrees and came up with a tesseract in an attempt to move from 3d to 4d. And even the that tassaract is only their best attempt at the projection of a 4d model in a 3d world, not a real 4d object which we can't perceive. And my friend you are telling me "appeared" for a circle that can be squared. Please!
@@ythjkl2881 the self contradiction is the point of it, it's supposed to be humour
@@polishane8837 not sure why the guys didn’t catch the humor
Robert Sapolsky is such a deeply good person. Through no fault of his own.
Lmao
He just have to understand that 'sometimes it's not that deep'...
@@tychodancer you got the joke
@@timmcdraw7568
Lol he didn't say he's a good person with no fault, he mentioned a few things that he wouldn't do even if they're not enforced by law. And what you define as a good or bad person is subjective or I would say relative
I came here for Sapolsky and Tyson but I gotta say, Chuck Nice is probably the best co-host/guest star or whatever I've ever heard on a podcast.
I love when Tyson says that in modern-day, junkies aren't arrested. Nice and Sapolsky are spot on. Tyson can be out of touch. Nice is the perfect balance for Tyson: Nice is more approachable, and though also highly intelligent, not as arrogant.
@@RachaellHilyer Totes!
Love chuck. He speaks for me
Chuck, explain that picture. A heart?
I believe.
Let robert speak, damn it.. so many times he was going somewhere interesting when he's interrupted.
Just read his book if you want Robert to go somewhere interesting. He's got you covered there, uninterrupted.
A parenting book said "Remember that children are usually doing the best they can, and don't get mad at them." I told myself that so many times as my kids were growing, and it really helped me be patient and look at them as a whole process of learning, not just one moment of a mistake. Now, I realize it's not just children. Most people lead very complicated lives in their minds/bodies, and they really are trying, even if it doesn't seem like it.
I am certain that I was guided by God to this comment. My wife is recovering from a kidney transplant that didn't work....so she is dealing with the physical healing and the sadness of it happening at all.
While this is a TOTALLY understandable situation, the fact that I do a lot for her before the surgery is not as beneficial as we try to get her back to the abilities she had before the surgery.
The decision to push yourself to get back to what you were or accept the physical impairment as a potentially lifelong impairment is an absolute choice.... just as I will have to choose tough love or total comfort and understanding or a balance in between.
How tough is tough enough is never as simple as are they doing the best they can....not when so much is at stake. But what is the right answer is always hard to know.
Yeah, I believe that. We can try to extrapolate to loving everyone for what they are (you never know what someone else is going through), but with innocents it is definitely more understandable. I believe that of animals, that they are perfectly performing the life given to them, because they have even less knowledge and self-consciousness, and work with instinct. I hate it when people are angry at dogs for just being what they are--and doing their best--better than humans, it seems. Your post reminds me of my friend and his kids, who I lived with for years. Sometimes when they were acting up, he just smiled and observed them until things calmed down. He just looked at them with love, not demanding that they immediately " toe the line". You may think that's permissive, but they became the greatest adults.
And as are the parents, and the family, and the teachers, and the colleagues, and the bosses, and the cops, and the judges, etc
Thank you I was just talking to my friend about this. Every single person on this planet is doing the best they can
A beautiful comment 💖💕💖
I can't stop myself from watching Dr. Sapolski's free will interviews.
Just about to start my journey on that. Thanks to this one 👍
He's done loads,I've got the audiobook too.
I'm not sure if he's saying we should ditch things like pride, while they don't make sense there's still utility in it even if you don't believe in free will cause you can't totally escape the notion.
Sapolsky also has a complete Stanford lecture series on TH-cam. It's fascinating.
Same here, got heavily addicted 😅
@@konrid22 you had no choice
Thank you, I believe that fueling empathy - through an understanding of the lack of free will - is essential to truly promoting compassion. Most importantly for those we don't understand / dislike. This is a very important conversation to have
No. Placing empathy over rational truth is not good. It leads to coercion of the innocent.
Just because you're empathetic doesn't mean you shouldn't correct someone with the wrong mindset at a given time. Things change as time goes on and we have to accordingly. Being empathetic means hitting people where they respond to the correction successfully if nothing else works. There is a balance and you can't be an extremist. Some people can't change their mindsets accordingly and become a problem for evolving. Those people have served their purpose if they do not respond to the needs of the majority.
So I do agree with you. But I got bludgeoned to death basically and some haven't so they aren't there yet.
To hear someone of the caliber of DeGrasse Tyson say the phrase "I did not know that" shows how humble this man is - even with all his educational achievements. I've had high-school gym teachers who couldn't admit that there was something they didn’t know.
"...of the caliber of DeGrasse Tyson..." -- that is why he thinks there are more than two genders. That is terrific "caliber."
🤨
Neil recognizes Robert's genius. He knows his accolades are completely merited and sound. That's his way of showing the upmost respect for a superior intellect, albeit a different field of study of course
I am particularly impressed with Neil's educational achievement of recognizing there are more than two genders. Now that is truly impressive!
It's because NDT acknowledges that Sapolsky is as accomplished, if not more, than him. Whenever NDT talks to a non-scientist, he just bulldozes everyone in the conversation.
Dr. Sapolsky’s books- like “why zebras don’t get ulcers” and his online lectures from Stanford Uni are life changing! One of my favorite scientists! Great to see him
Yes
Yes. Glad to see him on Star Talk.
so, why don't zebras get ulcers?
@@arlo2203they don’t have jobs to lose, they worry less, only when running away from predators, hence episodic stress, rather than all the time, chronic stress.
His “Behave” is a masterpiece, but I haven’t yet read his “Determined”, but it’s on my list.
The fact that Sapolski can sit up immediately after a 2 hour couch nap and still be this coherent while having the interview on the same couch is quite amazing.
LMAO. best comment.
He is amazing but, why is there no mention of feedback loops.
Memory as it is formed in both biological and computing logic system need feedback loops. The brain creates it's internal monolog, which gets fed back into the system stimulates new concepts, memories and emotions, and that gets turned into the words of the internal monolog, repeat. Eventually the monolog produces something from which the network stabilizes into a state where the decision is made. I think there is more complexity to discuss in this, there is a conscious part of the brain that is listening to the monolog and has some parameters about what kind of solution it is looking for (direction of thought).
@@haylekm There is no monolog. Animals make decisions without having a concept of language, and their brains work on the same principles as ours do.
😂😂😂😂
@@haylekm Some people have no inner monologue, but I can't remember which Consciousness science podcast i heard this from...But he essentially said that your thoughts arise out of preceding thoughts to a small degree...but the decisions are basically a vote between neurons. the strongest signal produces your choice. that signal strength is effected by genetics, memory, learning, positive and negative experience, words that other brains transmitted about it etc. so your thoughts try to standardize about things, but can change with new plastic forces which alter the neurons to produce a different signal strength.
One positive result of the pandemic lockdowns for me was discovering Sapoksky's Stanford lectures. Now I've read 3 of his fascinating books and myn life 's been enriched.
It's sad that school convinces many that science is not for them.. it really is down to the teachers you get.
If it conforts you, the government just want a person smarth enough to push a button, but not to know how that machine really works. Of course, there's a lot of people that make those machines, but not all of them.
Absolutel joy to listen to the three of you. Robert Sapolsky’s Behave has a prime spot on my book shelf. It’s both enlightening and humbling to follow his work and thoughts. Amazing episode!
They told me "Cheer up, things could be worse." So I cheered up, and sure enough - things got worse!
That's life.
that's funny. sounds like something Rodney would say.
Sounds like an Elliott Smith album.
That sounds like Murphy's Law😂 and one more to add: Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong😅 Murphy wasn't pessimistic, he was realistic🤷♀️
Sullivan's law- Murphy was an optimist
Tolstoy said, "The only difference between free will and fate is time." I've always loved that definition.
where can I find this quote from him?
He makes this point at the end of his novel war and peace
got it. what's your interpretation on that?
Wow, that's spot on. In my musings on this subject it occurred to me that understanding the nature of time would be a prerequisite to any scientific examination of free will. For example, if we accept the "block universe" concept of spacetime there is no room for free will as it is generally understood. Which brings up another important point, we need a more precise definition of free will before we can begin to discuss it meaningfully.
Just because something is an illusion doesn't mean it's not real
@@RFK_wait4_2028Frank, are you saying that just bc ur paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.?
Frreaking Neil! at around 26:26 'here are my recent thoughts', your rant is amazingly exactly the glue that holds this entire convo together all while re-enphasizing and refocusing the main focus, 'Free Will'. You put this delimna in a relateable perspective of real world examples, challenging society to look seriously at how we pass judgement and/or write off certain marginalized members of our society we share our lives with. The unfortunate outcome that typically and mistakenly occurs is that our lack of compassion and deliberate choice to see the actual set of uncontrollable consequences that have overwhelmed and consumed an individual into despair & misfortune, is much easier to justify as a choice that said person through 'free will' can simply make to turn it all around. The problem is that we deep down understand that most everyone can improve their situation with the compassion and help required to overcome and reprogram the bad hand that people our dealt. But we are not willing to acknowledge this truth because we have to sacrifice our time and resourrces to help those in need: selfishness. We would rather justify and contribe our success on our 'free will' to overcome our own bad hand and conclude that if I can make it, so can anyone. The jist of it is, we all need support, we all need to community to help work through the history that was not our choice but our consequence, and there is no better feeling or fulfilment in life then to witness a change in one's life from the sacrifice we 'chose' to make for an individual that deserves and appreciates the love that we all seek and thrive. Thanks!
What a perfectly wholesome and entertaining disscussion about a topic that has the potential to be argumentative. Refreshing.
Stanford has his lectures online. Professor Sapolsky is SO KNOWLEGEABLE! He is an EXCELLENT educator!
Probably the greatest playlist on TH-cam. These 30+ hours of lecture he have on the Standford channel are probably my best investment on this platform in years
th-cam.com/play/PL150326949691B199.html&si=YksDBAEkMly2lcq-
hes a bit goofy when it comes to the free will thing
THANK God? No... That Neil and his guests for enlightening the world toward a more civilized and advanced understanding of human nature. 'Free will' had always been garbage meant to uphold the power structure. Praise the powerful and indict the weak--all garbage.
@@orwellianreptilian2914 How so?
It is FASCINATING listening to scientists of this level having a discussion.
to you because of your past
yes, even if, more that a "discussion", it was deGrasse Tyson interrupting Sapolsky every other sentence, it was a bit annoying for me.
What was fascinating? How was free will defined in this discussion=
The fascinating part is how these “supposedly” smart men sound incoherent and uneducated in the realm of social science
I can’t help myself, I got happy tears in my eyes when I saw the cameo appearance of Dr. Sapolsky’s cute doggo next to him 🥹😊
I love these type of questions and conversation. I completely agree with Robert. It makes alot of sense
I think you just pulled the best Sapolsky interview. Sapolsky is always fun, but the energy in this scientific approach to the line of questions put to him to break his theory down was better than anyone else has managed .
And it makes perfect sense too. Science is amazing
he was on a political podcast here in the uk.. (the rest is politics)
a good programme
and he was just so fascinating..
talking mostly about primate behaviour (and of course linking back to politicians lol)
Not that fun, really. Telling people they don't have free will and that accountability doesn't make sense. I recall Dr. Huemer roasting Sapolsky on this debate.
I agree. I've watched dozens of Sapolsky interviews and this is the best. Niel and his partner did a great job and also made it entertaining.
Question: do we pick the womb we are born from or is it assigned, and by whom?
Loved, loved, LOVED this interview. Thank you for having Robert Sapolsky on the show. I absolutely love following his work.
He presents a plausible case for people deeply ignorant of the nature of awareness, consciousness, self, reality, and god.
@@yourlogicalnightmare1014which all are non proven beliefs…
@@solitudebychoice
That is the natural conclusion to reach when you know nothing. Entertain me with your 55 IQ and explain how awareness, reality, and self are "non-proven beliefs"
I'm very entertained by your use of the word "absolutely" considering Robert is himself an absolutist.
@@yourlogicalnightmare1014if you have to resort to insults when questioning the validity of a “god” figure and put another (just as conscious and aware person) down…i really don’t think you have the grounds to be arguing about “intelligence”.
those whom are defensive of their beliefs live in glass houses.
your, nor any human being’s anecdotes are above any others.
i suggest you calm down, humble yourself - and treat those how you want to be treated - just like the “god” you oh so dearly have faith in commands you to do…according to your books “he” wouldn’t be very proud of your little temper tantrum you just threw…now would “he”?
Outstanding topic. The good Dr. Sapolsky is amazing
OMG, Robert is such a hoot! I love this collaboration.
I must say, South Africa (where I live) is a grand example of how culture can be changed. You guys may not understand how much people like Mandela and Tutu have done to fast-track social change and catalyse behavioural overhaul.
It's still flawed and the road to healing and integration is long, but this is most certainly possible. It's just not effective without leaders who drive it from the top-down (which is why Rassie Erasmus is serving as a secondary lateral-hero and unifier at present)
I’ve got so much love and respect for Professor Sapolsky! Life is such a runaway snowball, rolling downhill and once you get that concept, you grow so much empathy towards people that have less or are in worse situations.
So true. It’s so easy to take for granted why someone acts the way they do and are the way they are but as soon as you appreciate it the entire idea of hating anyone or thinking anyone intrinsically deserves more or less than anyone else goes out the window.
Unless they're a Christian, or conservative of course..
This is so much NONSENSE.
@@ataraxia7439Oh the simpy simp has a voice.
@@markiv2942 if you want to have actual impact you should put in the effort an explain your views otherwise no one is going to take you seriously
Robert Sapolsky is one of the best educators EVER 🙌🙌🙌
Hi fellows! I just opened the video and paused at 2.03, before I listen to prof Sapolsky, I would like to share something with you, that I had never told.
About 20 years ago, i had some struggle to understand the way my life should go. (I remember at that time the internet access was really limited for most of us). During that struggles I've wrote some notes and among those it was also this question : "are we truly free in this world where everything is cause-and-effect?"
Awesome interview!
On the case of meritocracy and our sense that "we worked hard" to get where we are, I would add that most people work hard. The differences are that sometimes the capability based on our genetic and environmental conditions is different for one person than it is for another and we don't always see the challenges that each person is facing.
This is super interesting. I recently took an avalanche training course (AIARE) and one of the things I was surprised at was the emphasis on creating a framework for decision making that doesn’t allow you to make a bad decision. There was a lot of emphasis on recognizing things that could affect your decision making- are you hungry? Are you going through a breakup? Are you cold and tired? Are you deferring to an expert even if you’re uncomfortable taking a risk? You have to make sure everyone in the group is comfortable saying they are uncomfortable- which as social apes is actually difficult.
For example more people die in avalanches on days that have blue skies because they take more risks
Wasn’t expecting to Dr Sapolsky, but I’m glad he’s a guest! I’ve watched so many of his lectures and presentations and have learned so much from him.
What’s the point? We have no free will…
"Most of what we are is non physical, though, our lowest form is physical. All life on our planet has the lowest form, the Body. Our Body is an Animal and the other type of Body on our planet is a Plant. Bodies are bound absolutely to Natural Law, which is the lowest form of true Law. Natural Law is a localised form of Law and is derived from the Laws of Nature. Natural Law is the finite and specific foundational control structure ordering the actions and interactions of species, members of species, and the material sources of a planet.
The lowest non physical form of what we are is the Mind, which is a Process. There are other forms of life on our planet that have both a Body and a Mind, however, so far as we currently know, there are no Plants and only some Animals that have a Body and a Mind. The lowest forms of Mind, Instinct and Emotion, are predominantly bound to Natural Law. The next higher form of Mind is Intellect which is bound predominantly to the Laws of Nature. Intuition, the highest form of Mind, can be bound or not to both Natural Law and the Laws of Nature separately or together, or to higher forms of Law altogether. Intuition is the truest guide for our Selves.
The next non physical form of what we are is the Self, which is an Awareness. There are relatively few other forms of life on our planet that have a Self. The Self is not bound to any form of Law other than One's Own Law. It is the only form of Law that cannot be violated.
The foundation of what we are is the highest non physical form of what we are. The highest form of what we are is the Being, which is an Existence. The Being is not bound to any form of Law originating within Existence. The Being is bound absolutely to The Law.
Existence, and the Laws of Nature which are the finite and specific foundational control structure ordering the actions and interactions of all elements within Existence, cannot Be without The Law being The Law.
So, what is The Law?
In a word, The Law is options.
Definition
option: a thing that is or may be chosen.
The word 'option' does convey the idea of The Law in its most basic sense but does not clarify all of what The Law is.
Free Will does describe how our species experiences The Law but does not convey all of what The Law is.
In clarifying what The Law is;
The capitalised form of the word 'The' indicates the following noun is a specific thing.
Law is the finite and specific foundational control structure ordering the actions and interactions of all elements subordinate.
Together, the words 'The' and 'Law' (in that exact order,) is a proper noun indicating;
the singular form of Law that all other forms of Law and all other Laws are founded upon,
the singular foundation upon which Existence is founded,
the singular foundation upon which Non Existence is founded,
the singular foundation connecting Existence to Non Existence,
the concept of options, and
Free Will.
However one thinks, believes, guesses, hopes, or "knows", whether by a Big Bang, a creation story, a computer program, an expansion of consciousness, or whatever means by which Existence could have come to Be, the option for Existence to not Be also exists. Existence and Non Existence, the original options connected by the very concept of options, connected by The Law. Outside of space and before time. Extra-Existential.
As we experience The Law in our Being,
The Law is Free Will.
The First Protector of The Law is Freely Given Consent.
The First Violation of The Law is Theft of Consent."
- Goho-tekina Otoko
@@tonyk4615 you have no free will..
Always enjoy listening to Professor Sapolsky.
All of our blame, judgement, and hatred stem from a belief in free will and personal responsibility. When the myth of free will is seen as the myth that it is, all of that falls away.
If you want to go a bit deeper, it can also be helpful to see that the separate entity or ‘me’ with free will does not exist without a thought.
Shakespeare nailed it when he said “Nothing is either good or bad but the thinking that makes it so.”
I wish Neil wouldn’t interrupt Robert Sapolsky so much.
Shows how different neil and sapolsky nervous systems are 😅
interrupting is kinda his deal
He’s made a career out of interrupting other people
Yes, I Love Neil but he really has a bad habit of interrupting people.
I believe he has all the right intentions of wanting to add some info or humor to the conversation and he usually has some valuable information or insight to add but he tends to overdo it.
@@ignorasmusit's funny, I talk very similarly to Neil, and I have to fight against interupting, because my brain is in a constant struggle to go off on tangents and adding stuff in while someone else is talking is the only way I can keep myself focused on what they say
.... I have fairly extreme add and I would guess it's a similar explanation.
May just be an interrupter though.
"It's not a matter of punishment, it's a matter of nurturing and understanding" 100% yes! And beyond that, creating the environment and context that produces prosocial behavior and provides the opportunity for people to thrive.
And awareness that the prosocial is found in the motivation for the behaviour employed by an individual.
One culture/individual's rudeness is another culture/individual's display of respect. 😅
But if we don’t, doesn’t matter either, no free will, we are all just bouncing along our pre etched paths. Trump 2024
It’s not that I want to punish anyone… I have no choice!
@@HairySourpuss 🤮🤮🤮 anti-science hate machine, what an insane takeaway to take from this convo
21:14 This is the most crucial question and answer I wanted to hear from these 2 geniuses related to the rigor and relevance of science 😍
Waiting for someone to dumb this down for me...
Mr Sapolsky is an amazing researcher and lecturer.
I'm 75% through Sapolsky's book. It's a real eye opener. Highly recommend 😎👍
Trump 2024!
I agree!!!
@@HairySourpuss I don't empathize, but I sympathize.
About the judge hunger effect, I worked with a guy who always scheduled meetings with his clients between 11h30am and 12h30pm, as an attempt to talk to them before they had lunch. My colleague said the clients said yes to anything he suggested, in order to get rid of the meeting and go have lunch 😄
That’s smart, stealing that!
The discussions in this talk are similar to talks with Ramesh Balsekar I had watched and listened to many years back.
There was also a print interview (I read it online only) by the magazine What is enlightenment. It was quite good and explained what Ramesh Balsekar really had to say.
The magazine was later renamed and I think ownership was also changed. I don't think the interview is available online now.
In the search for truth we eventually come across the question of free will. I have also grappled with it, didn't come to a conclusion, and don't think I ever will.
Ramana Maharshi was once asked a question: “Are only important events in a man’s life, such as his main occupation or profession, predetermined, or are trifling acts in his life, such as taking a cup of water or moving from one place in the room to another, also predetermined?”
Ramana's answer: Yes, everything is predetermined.
Thank you.
The gasp I let out seeing Sapolsky on my favorite podcast. Omg ❤
I'm 29 and been listening to Sapolsky speak since I was 12. Probably the scientist I admire the most. His lectures on evolutionary biology should be a right of passage. They tell you so much about us as a species, and how that expresses itself in our individuality and the choices we make.
The interesting thing is when I say "the choices we make", that phrase is precisely what has been the ongoing debate. It gets semantic until it gets very, very real, in it's real world implications.
I am fairly new to him, but i am familiar with determinism philosophically from an eastern religion context, politically from classical marxism, and scientifically from, well, science. But while I agree with some of his conclusions, it seems to me what's happening here is a lack of scanning the horizons of theoretical physics and philosophy on his part is causing his incredulity or surprise, and then sweeping claims that aren't coherent. For example, I think we have some amount of free will, because like free will, we aren't objectively real - as us, as selves. So free will is for selves, which is what we are, but those are also not empirically found in the brain, or body or anywhere, they are emergent simulations on that level, but for us they are real. So he's a bit like a doctor saying we need to change the way we do liver surgery because at the relativistic or quantum level, there is no discreet thing called a liver. Well for sure we can get insights into medicine and surgery this way, and we have, but on the whole that's just confusion.
@emilianosintarias7337 free will has implications in every major field of science and medicine and every other industry. It's confusing to digest free will on a macro level, but in situations like, for example, law, it's simpler to understand why presuming free will's existence is vital. Life in prison is something we have to get right.
But that already depends on the idea that the purpose of law is justice (which assumes free will), rather than the enforcing of social norms. What I am saying is that a total lack of free will on the level of society or individuals is incoherent - for the same reason it is coherent at a more macro level. Thus, it is in actually already established socio political concepts like buddhism, traditional libertarianism, communism, socialism, social democracy, etc, that we can find answers about how to organize industries and laws compassionately. They all assume that free will is constrained by social and natural factors, but don't dispense with it totally@@nothimbutbetteractually
The Palestinians have no choice but to elect Hamas. Israel has no choice to decimate Gaza. Seems legit.
@@askedofgod9067Social norms and religions have an enormous impact on us, so you’re actually right.
People often confuse the absence of free will with fate. It’s easier to think of historical events as dominos. No need for free will here.
I've been thinking like this for a decade however it's still hard not to get mad at other human beings and even at myself
I don't think the expectation should be that without free will we don't get mad. Anger is a response to something we identify that would have been better having gone a different way. Identifying these things is important to actually getting better results next time.
Anger can be a tool like any other, the danger of course is when it shuts down rational thought and we become impulsive.
indeed.
that seems to contradict the lack of free will idea. important? getting it right? tool like any other? danger? which non determines agent is standing back from this, is transcending this?@@uninspired3583
I agree! I just try to think about why am getting angry/sad etc and what factors make it worse or better. Then I can try to make changes 👍🏼
I've been thinking this way for 3 decades and I barely ever got mad and at this point it pretty much never happens. Some anger is genetically built in, but most of it is learned through imitating our environment and having certain kind of behavior legitimized and normalized.
If our society did not believe in free will at all and you were born into that world, you'd very likely be feeling much less angry more often on average than you do now.
OMG, this is really happening!! Two of my favorite contemporary scientists together in one video...I am on cloud nine... RESPECT!!!
I am watching/listening to this cause of Robert. He is always a good listen.
This is the best Sapolsky interview I've seen, and I've seen many.
Indeed. It is the first time I see an interviewer bring Karl Popper's falseability principle in conversation with Robert Sapolsky 👍.
Unfortunately Neil was interrupting and cutting off Robert at so many opportunities and that subtracted from the quality for me.
Somehow he got Neil and Arsineal Hall buying this crap too. You guys ever read the Bible hmmm? Tree of life? tree of knowledge of good and evil? Ever hear of those, Bobby?
its great when he's interviewed by someone who has a basic idea of his thesis along with respect for his accolades.
Professor Sapplskys intro to human behavior was always one of the most popular classes at Stanford, very funny lecturer.
This guy, mixed with you two is mind blowing. I really really dig this. This is right down my alley.
Thank you for the wonderful, eye opening - no - Mind opening, video you provided us.
I think i just seen Neal learn something...like the actual moment...fun.
Great video. In fact beyond reproach
This has got to be one of the best interviews on Startalk. Neil and Chuck's interventions are as apposite as usual, and I always marvel at how Chuck, while genuinely interested and contributive to the conversation, is still funny, not because he's trying, but because he's just made that way and can't help himself. (A kind of appropriate observation now I come to think of it!)
So many people (who still watch and listen, btw) complain at their interview style and that Chuck isn't funny. If we could plot humor on an X Axis and Intellect on a Y Axis, Chuck is crushing it
May I just express my appreciation for your appreciation of other people's diverse communication styles ❤
I love Chuck lol
Prof. Sapolsky is so calm and composed. Unlike Neil and Chuck he carefully listens without interrupting others during conversation.
Some people have more zen than others... Work in progress for Chuck and Neil
Particularly for Neil
Different type of communication etiquette.
Neil and Chuck have a etiquette style that is characterised by a "everyone jump on in" type involvement.
Robert has an etiquette style that is "wait your turn".
For people raised in the involved etiquette as the cultural norm, people not jumping in are thought to be uninvolved and thus disrespectful.
For people raised in the turn-taking etiquette as the cultural norm, people who jump on in are being disrespectful.
If you're a turn-taker talking with an involved and they're jumping in when you haven't gotten to the twist in your comment it is acceptable to put your hand up and say in a friendly way "lemme finish".
In the involved etiquette jumping-in shows that you're interested and paying attention. Involved is not the same as "speaking over" someone with the motivation to dominate over your conversation-partner.
Neil's increased jumping in is also an indication of his enjoyment of the conversation.
I'm Aussie, and we're an involved etiquette culture. Drives the immigrants from the turn-taking etiquette cultures absolutely nuts. For many of us, not jumping in is making us carry the conversation and that's just rude.
Does that help you understand what's going on?
@@TheKrispyfort Didn't know that. Thanks for the explanation!
oh $hit!!! I like listening to Dr. Sapolsky's lectures :)
i like listening to Dr. Tyson too :)
@7:00 yes, I suffered so much trauma that I lost my ability to think, function, speak, etc. I had to relearn how to learn; it was like going through infancy again, but a little different.
I love how they made a choice to discuss whether or not they have the ability to make choices. This is like the debate I'm always having with AI about its self awareness of whether or not its aware. LOL! I just LOVE the free will vs determinism debate, classic, but it's unimportant and unprovable in any case, really. My own conclusion after LOTS of thought on the matter is that its a paradox and its really both. That is, when we exist, which may be always somehow which is even weirder, BUT, when we do exist we have the free will to select from a transfinite (or infinite depending upon your take on the many worlds theory and God, nature of the universe(s), blah blah blah) number of predetermined paths. Lots of fun though! 🙂 Thank you for having this conversation! LOVED IT! 🙂
Even if we don't have free will, I'm determined to be free
You're programmed that way :D
I'm programmed to not do bad things to other people because I'm afraid of what they might do to me.@@Shive1337
@@Shive1337 we are who we are. every moment a new version and will never be the same.
Only Christ and being born again can set you free, give you eyes to see, ears to hear, and stary you on the path to the beginning of wisdom
If Christ made you then you indeed don't have any free will. It's been written and scripted in his eyes. Everything that has happened to you and will happen he intended. Sowwie.
There was a great Radiolab where they talked about this lady who was stuck in a loop from medicine or something, and she would go through the exact same logic steps because she wasn't storing any new memories. It was like groundhog day over and over. Honestly, it was really compelling to me, it made me think about that idea of us being biological machines. She would repeat the same questions, the same answers, said the same weird little details, etc, exactly the same each and every time for hours.
Get out!
That’s how everyone is if you look closer
Do you remember the name of the episode? That sounds super interesting but I can’t seem to find it.
Chuck cracks me up every episode. I can't believe I never heard of him before this show. One of the funniest comedians around right now.
Came here for Robert Sapolsky but loved all three of you. What a great way to spend 55 minutes. Thank you!
I'm always where Robert Sapolsky is invited. I'm 52 years old and when I was a teen I tend to come up with the same conclusion that free will doesn't exist. Simply by observing my violent mother and my alcoholic father (violent, angry everyday with my sisters and I between 4 an 8 years old, they where psychotic and neurotic, with their very difficult past, and observing my class mate, etc.)
This made me a very patient, gloom, distant, and introverted person (as little as I know.) ... and that did not help me with life...
So you didn't choose to write this post?
One thing it can do for you: you can be assured that IT WASN'T YOUR FAULT. And it was never your problem to solve, so there is no reason to blame yourself for not stopping them.
You absolutely have my sympathy - it must have been horrible.
@@winchesterbearright lol
We have the free will to make better decisions in life but no free will when it comes to our human anatomy so basically yes and no.
@@winchesterbearhis past which he did not choose or control contributed to him writing the comment 🤔
Love this man. Love him, love him, love him. Such a beautiful soul and a BRILLIANT mind. He’s doing AWESOME things for the mentally troubled.
One of the best discussions I've heard in a long time. Yes, my brain made me say that!
This is a great conversation, also handled very professionally...
Thank you for brining on Dr.Sapolsky! He is one of my absolute favorite professors!!
I consider most of this a part of chaos, which I define as "The effect of countless unknown factors upon any given outcome." I do believe in 'free will' - as in we can make our own choices, even against our own biology and circumstances, given that we've done enough self reflection and introspection to know when we tend to make certain kinds of decisions.
But did you actually choose the self reflection introspection etc. or was it just your nature from your nature and nurture. Actions don’t manifest from nothing. That is magic. Actions- including your thoughts happen via nature and the nature that is around you.
@@ducky169So you're saying that me gaining free will was predetermined?
Lovely conversation. Glad you had Dr. Sapolsky on for this.
This was one of the best interviews ever.
Amazing you had Dr. Sapolsky on! I took a dive through TH-cam last year and watched his lectures and couldn't stop watching the class. Amazing teacher and such interesting findings. I still love watching him when he comes up, so this is a real treat!
Yes, you can stop. You have the free will to do so.
There's no such thing as too much Sapolsky! Thank you!
Good comment!
Hi! First i gotta say i love you all 🤓 There’s a question on the back of my head every time i listen to professor Sapolsky. If there’s no free will whatsoever (and i really think there is not, based on how vulnerable we are to our surroundings, society and our own brains), how come there’s actual changes in behaviour and learning?
Big hugs from Argentina💚
I have no free will in telling you how beautiful you are lol
According to the theory, the multitude of things that influence us on a pre-conscious level change as we experience things, and so our responses change.
Check out Mark Twain’s book, “What Is Man”. He argues the same thing Robert argues, over 100 years ago. Twain says ‘outside influences’ are the only thing that leads us down a different path. They change us, whether it be a remark from a friend, a discussion we’ve heard on a podcast, actions of others we’ve witnessed, etc… It’s a great book and was the thing that convinced me that free will doesn’t exist.
These kinds of podcasts are the best of TH-cam. Please keep doing this.
The argument against the existence of real free will is rooted in the understanding that both deterministic and probabilistic laws govern the universe, and in the evidence that unconscious neural processes precede conscious decision-making. This view posits that what we perceive as free will might be an illusion, with our choices predetermined by past events or influenced by random quantum events, neither of which we control.
things that are not being stated, that the subconscious acts created by narration are exemplorary to what feeling propogates the vision that perpetuates the narrative..folks like to be right, but it takes energy to change a thought. Energetically, bioelectromagnetically, there are Effects that influence outside of proximatey..Quantum energy reveals Spirit energy, not a standardization mean of 40% in behavioral issues in the general population, imo.
the problem there is that first, we don't mostly know those laws or how they work, second, they could be preceded/ determined in turn at a deeper level themselves, analogous to how they determine biology on our level. The next problem is we don't know how time or the mind work, for example backward time referral in the brain, causation from the future, may be real. Finally, the same logic that rules out free will also must rule out identity and selves, so what does it mean to say things aren't as we perceive? What does it mean to say we don't have free will? I don't have the answers, but I am impressed by one brilliant scientist who claims that only simulations can be conscious. In that sense, free will is real - for us. It's not real, beyond us, but that's a realm we can't touch anyway.
@@emilianosintarias7337 Just because we don't know the laws, doesn't mean it's then undetermined. There is a difference between unknowable and random, as was discussed in this video.
Same goes for going backwards in time. Just because we cannot determine what happened before, does not make it undetermined. It just means we can't determine it. We just dont have the capability to determine it.
No free will doesn't rule out identity or selves. It just removes the idea that they had free will in determining what their identity or selves are.
You're conflating free will with a lot of different things. These are assumptions you've made about free will, and without evidence.
@@RigelOrionBeta You don't understand my comments. "Just because we don't know the laws, doesn't mean it's then undetermined. There is a difference between unknowable and random, as was discussed in this video.". That's irrelevant. For example if how it works involves backwards time referral, IE your brain sending information backward to itself all the time, then that invalidates the idea of preceding causes for making choices being the issue. Libbet goes away. It has nothing to do with randomness.
And I didn't say free will rules out selves. I claim that just as we can find no place in the functioning of the body and brain for free will, the same examination fails to find selves, and yet they are both cultural and psychological objects or constructions. The mistake Sapolsky is making is to pretend that any brain science has found the self, and then ask how lack of free will affects it, despite there being no place in physiology or neurology for the self to be hiding either.
My final suggestion was that free will is not real, but that we (who , in physics, are not discreet individual object) do have it. Just like Frodo Baggins does not exist, but he is a hobbit. So, free will may just be part of the interface or operating system of selves, which are functional illusions, at base determined by bodies determined by physics
Just listened to the podcast version.... Brilliant episode....Mr Sapolsky is such a fascinating and interesting person....I loved your back and forth discussion with a serious dose of humour....9,9/10 for this one....(The missing 0,1 because it should've lasted another hour+) 😋
love hearing smart people talk about something I realized by meditating at 22. Some good thoughts here, really made me think about it in a new way.
Neil, as the physiscist you are, how does creativity fit into the deterministic world view of modern physics.
He's the professor I never had but needed 😢
I have listened to many, many, arguments on this subject of “Free Will” over the past several years. Quite honestly, I’m still having trouble with accepting it as a part of my daily reality of existence. I believe Neil hit the nail on the head. If this perspective of having “No Free Will” is true and really is what’s going on every day with our every day decisions, we have to do some serious changing with our social, political, and cultural perspectives of every single person on this planet. Of course, Robert had an answer and it should take 600 years for this “No Free Will” thing to become the positive part of humanity that he believes it should be. I disagree with that time scale. Probably more like a thousand and it’s not out of the question to say 10,000 years considering the human nature element.
Chuck Nice’ comment actually makes very much sense, as he always does on this podcast. Basically, to paraphrase, I will still be me and who am regardless of the rules/laws at hand. This is where I have the problem with the whole “Free Will” thing. The question of where does morality come from is still a relevant question. The answer to that question is rather obvious to most people. Of course, morality comes from us. We human beings make the rules/laws and we give the validity to the meaning of morality. And, it doesn’t matter where in the world you are born. Your morality will be based on the culture you were brought up in. Okay, to some degree, that one point alone, seems to lend credence to the “No Free Will” perspective. However, it does not answer the question of why we believe in morals in the first place. Yes, one could argue that we needed to come up with laws to keep people safe from the psychopaths. But, if “Free will” doesn’t exist then psychopaths are not responsible for their actions or behavior.
Listen, I’m all for forgiveness and tolerance of every single social and cultural difference with people in the whole world. But, if everything I think, do, and say is pre-determined, without my knowledge of it, then why am I concerned about Free will in the first place. I mean let’s be honest with ourselves here. If everything I think, do, and say has already been decided, then why bother with deciding anything. Just so you know, I would have no problem if having “No Free Will” was an absolute truth. I feel the same as Chuck. I would keep on keeping on and do what I love to do. Why? Because the truth is folks, that’s all you got anyway. “Free will” or not.
Here’s the rub folks. All you got is now. Sam Harris said it and it is as true as true can be. “It’s always now”. In other words, all you have is the moment. So, whether Free Will is real or not, you should be doing what is the most important to you every time you have the opportunity. Because, if you don’t, than once again, Free Will or not, you’re not living your life. So, when it really comes right down to it, that’s all that really matters. LIVING!
You're not the only one on this.
Was my response "free will" or was I destined to comment. 🤔
try this and see if it helps: "Most of what we are is non physical, though, our lowest form is physical. All life on our planet has the lowest form, the Body. Our Body is an Animal and the other type of Body on our planet is a Plant. Bodies are bound absolutely to Natural Law, which is the lowest form of true Law. Natural Law is a localised form of Law and is derived from the Laws of Nature. Natural Law is the finite and specific foundational control structure ordering the actions and interactions of species, members of species, and the material sources of a planet.
The lowest non physical form of what we are is the Mind, which is a Process. There are other forms of life on our planet that have both a Body and a Mind, however, so far as we currently know, there are no Plants and only some Animals that have a Body and a Mind. The lowest forms of Mind, Instinct and Emotion, are predominantly bound to Natural Law. The next higher form of Mind is Intellect which is bound predominantly to the Laws of Nature. Intuition, the highest form of Mind, can be bound or not to both Natural Law and the Laws of Nature separately or together, or to higher forms of Law altogether. Intuition is the truest guide for our Selves.
The next non physical form of what we are is the Self, which is an Awareness. There are relatively few other forms of life on our planet that have a Self. The Self is not bound to any form of Law other than One's Own Law. It is the only form of Law that cannot be violated.
The foundation of what we are is the highest non physical form of what we are. The highest form of what we are is the Being, which is an Existence. The Being is not bound to any form of Law originating within Existence. The Being is bound absolutely to The Law.
Existence, and the Laws of Nature which are the finite and specific foundational control structure ordering the actions and interactions of all elements within Existence, cannot Be without The Law being The Law.
So, what is The Law?
In a word, The Law is options.
Definition
option: a thing that is or may be chosen.
The word 'option' does convey the idea of The Law in its most basic sense but does not clarify all of what The Law is.
Free Will does describe how our species experiences The Law but does not convey all of what The Law is.
In clarifying what The Law is;
The capitalised form of the word 'The' indicates the following noun is a specific thing.
Law is the finite and specific foundational control structure ordering the actions and interactions of all elements subordinate.
Together, the words 'The' and 'Law' (in that exact order,) is a proper noun indicating;
the singular form of Law that all other forms of Law and all other Laws are founded upon,
the singular foundation upon which Existence is founded,
the singular foundation upon which Non Existence is founded,
the singular foundation connecting Existence to Non Existence,
the concept of options, and
Free Will.
However one thinks, believes, guesses, hopes, or "knows", whether by a Big Bang, a creation story, a computer program, an expansion of consciousness, or whatever means by which Existence could have come to Be, the option for Existence to not Be also exists. Existence and Non Existence, the original options connected by the very concept of options, connected by The Law. Outside of space and before time. Extra-Existential.
As we experience The Law in our Being,
The Law is Free Will.
The First Protector of The Law is Freely Given Consent.
The First Violation of The Law is Theft of Consent."
- Goho-tekina Otoko
Don't force it on you that you don't have a free will when you know deep inside from your first person perspective that you do. And you have correctly and logically linked it to moral code which I'm afraid isn't an issue for people who want to see everything from a chemistry laboratory. Their world view isn't natural, yours is!
You are concerned about freewill probably because you were told of this concept and it is uncomfortable when this notion is challenged. It does have to be that reason, but the point is there is a reason, and then there are reasons behind that reason, and so on, which create this predetermined causal chain, you know the drill.
You are basically saying that if there is no free will, we ought to do some serious changing?
An agent only ought to do something if she actually can do it, and ought only to refrain from doing something if she actually can refrain from doing it. But under determinism, neither can you do nor refrain from doing something. Determinism devolves into incoherence.
Thank you guys 🙏 i wish people like you were our polations.. The world would be a much better place ♥️
I couldn't agree more with Robert. I was married to someone who has NPD and addiction and I had to study them to understand what on earth was going on with him. We both went through existential crisis and he once asked me why God would punish him for making him the way he made him. It's true, it's not his fault that he suffered an awful upbringing and he had to find a way to survive as much as I found my own ways to survive my own upbringing. Knowing this helped me heal after I left him because it helped me lose all hope. I also realised that it was pointless for me to act like the victim in our dynamic because he was just as much a victim of his own life. That helped me finally accept him for who he is, not someone that needed fixing.
I always get baffled when people get mad that the rich live the way they do, just because there are poor people. I believe everyone has their lot in life, that's how it's designed and that's that.
If I could recommend only one video, out of the millions and millions of videos on TH-cam, to everyone I know, to my friends, to my acquaintances, even to my enemies!, this would be the one.
Why have enemies?
@@visiblehuman3705for fun?
agreed.... 😉@@visiblehuman3705
@@visiblehuman3705It's just semantics and frame.
@@ClarkPotter 😯
Chuck, thank you for bringing these two guys on your show
Hey after this podcast, I went and listened to Tate again. He's setting himself up to rewrite his settings somehow, and that's pretty much it. So we don't have freedom of choice, but we have the tools to influence ourselves to act differently.
No science required to see free will as incoherent - thoughts and feelings just pop into existence as a matter of experience. We don't and can't will our will ad infinitum. All it takes is a couple minutes of introspection and intellectual honesty towards ourselves and the spell of the illusion is broken. We don't think our thoughts before we think them and we don't create our emotions before we have them. And no decision we can make can ever not be based entirely on these components of which we have no control. Our thoughts and feelings are the sole motivator and content of our decision making process, thus making all choices inherently deterministic. Free will is self-defeating, even completely ignoring the neuroscience about subconciously making decisions before we become aware of them or something as irrelevant as quantum indeterminacy.
I've listened to him several times. But this discussion is the first time I understood the point of it all. Thank you Niel and Chuck. Very enlightening conversation.
I have had these exact same conversations with people, looking bk at my life, I can see what made me the way I am now, and that's just what I can remember
I like the guy, Siri, and understanding or explanation of it. I get it. It makes a lot of sense. I think most people think of free will we think of the ability to change our mind and that we’re not bound solely by primal instinct. Within that scope of what most people think of as free will we have the ability to choose wisely or not. We have the ability to consider prudence or not. Some animals do consider prudence but those animals are in harmony with the world as opposed to human beings.
1) I agree that we don't have 100% free will in the choices we make. I suspect we have much less free will than we generally suppose. This is most obviously evident in the notoriously bad choices people make while addicted to drugs.
2) Yes, biology, culture, and personal experience play an undeniable role in the choices we make.
3) Free will is an property of ego, which emerges from biology, which emerges from chemistry, which emerges from physics. Its emergent property means that you will not see its existence in the underlying systems.
4) I feel that we have more than 0% free will. Our choices are indeed influenced by things outside of our control. Influence is an accepted and understood part of making a choice. It is why we teach our children, in the hopes they will make good choices as adults. Children of nurturing parents are imperfectly, but better than average at making "good" decisions.
I was first introduced to this concept of Determinism or no free will while watching Star Talk live. It was mentioned briefly by the other physicist on the panel (maybe his name was Brian Greene). The concept was dismissed on the show, but i was hooked, and went down the TH-cam rabbit hole. I then found Robert Sapolsky talking about the book Determined. I am reading Behave right now. Thank you so much Mr. Degrasse for intruding me to new concepts and expanding my thinking. You make science fun.
The concept of determinism/free will has been around since ancient Greek philosophy. But within determinism there are compatibilists and incompatibilists, who believe free will is an emergent property or not.
@@daanschone1548Yep incompatibilists who agree with determinism are called pessimists and incompatibilists who agree with free will are called libertarians.
@@Steven_DunbarSL one thing is sure. Due to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle we can never determine whether the universe is deterministic or not. :)
Arthur Schopenhauer in his "World as Will and Representation" said something like "you can will what you do but you can't will what you will". Thanks for the show.
That makes perfect sense.
Awesome, I became aware of the same thing when I was 13 - 14 years old.
Also a French philosopher, Gaston Bachelard said: The willpower consists of doing what one does not like.
Good one.Kinda of a Synthesis, of the subject.
The willingness to accept what others can not.
The freedom to choose willingness instead of will not.
The willingness to do what others won't.
The willingness to change while others don't.
-Buddah says
@@ogungou9 I’m not sure that will power is the same as free will but let’s accept that. You will only do what you don’t want if you want something else more. Eg I don’t like to exercise but I want to be fit more. I don’t want to go to the ballet but it makes my wife happy. I don’t want to raise my hand but I will because I want to prove I can more.
I like how Chuck keeps up and learns with Neil
Often I'll be playing songs on the piano, and then immediately I get the urge to play another song
Usually when I look up the chords for the next song I notice they have either similar sections to the previous song or they'll just straight up have an identical chord progression (Mad world and Boulevard of Broken Dreams as an example)
So in a sense I was always going to play that song next
or same thing when I start thinking of certain lyrics or quotes from television or movies or what have you, I'll look back at what all I just heard and realize I heard something that reminded me of the lyric or quote.
It really makes you wonder what else, behind the scenes, is affecting all of your decisions on the day to day.
8:25 now I understand why my Aunt is told to do fasting the whole day before her weekly religious congregation meeting
Damn lmaoo
it's all starting to make sense...lol
Does she get bad gas ?
@@unnamedchannel1237😂 well played
Refuting the belief in free will allows you to have empathy and forgiveness. Which has been the best benefit of my life.
There would also be an absence of justice as no one would be held accountable for "their" crimes because they have little to no control over their actions .
@@hafissujanlal6454 that’s not true. People still should face justice. I just don’t judge them from a moral perspective.
@@hafissujanlal6454you can still put people in jail that are bad for society.
@@hafissujanlal6454 the idea is discussed and refuted within the podcast. The main reason to jail somebody who is predisposed towards violence is the same whether they are acting with free will or not. You’re protecting other members of the public from being harmed.
It’s the distinction between saying “you’re going to prison in order to protect the rest of the public from your actions” and “you’ve been a very naughty boy or girl and you deserve to be punished”.
One of them is a moral judgement and the other is a functional statement, moving away from moralising is what’s being put forward (you really should watch the whole podcast because the arguments are very reasonable - he discusses other examples where moralising isn’t helpful and can even backfire, such as dealing with obesity)
"no free will" means "there is nothing to forgive". So there is no blame, and no guilt. Which has been the best benefit of my life, similarly. We're all doing our best. (and our worst at the same time, but why see it that way). No one makes a mistake if they know it's a mistake.
That's why it is so important to intervene since early childhood with education, mental health, arts, and love! otherwise it is usually too late
I read an article a while ago about some philosophy professor espousing this and latched on as it makes absolute sense to me.
We are simply state machines in that every single action we "choose" is the sum of all effects not only on us directly, but on every preceding effect that put the universe(s) in such a state that culminated in our individual state at the time of action. So yes, even though a discrete quantum effect may not alter the state of a human sufficiebtly to alter an outcome, they have collectively over perpetuity.
Or we could just God our way out of the hard conversation and implications 😉
This is blowing my mind a bit. It relates to Dostoyevsky's Notes from Underground and so much of Foucault's ideas on
Power Dynamics, Biopolitics, Discipline and Punish, Agency and Resistance. Sapolsky is grounded maybe more in biology than social theory. I need to read this book. Thanks
I love both of these people NDT and RS so so much and was delighted to catch this video. Mostly because they love to teach and enlighten the following generations of thinkers. I was surprised to see the different personalities but also the different disciplines interact. Both of these men had strong religious upbringings and challenged those beliefs as they pursued their love of science. Professor Sapolsky's are at Stanford are free online. He did not pretend to know astrophysics. The difficulty with human behavior is everyone thinks they know, but it's that supposition that makes change difficult. That's what Sapolsky shares when he teaches. First thing is to dispel preconceived untruths and who wants to give those up if they support your way of life.
Chuck Nice is like absolutely stunning sometimes, especially when he smiles
I think dreams are a good example of how we can feel like we are in control and have free will from a first person experience when we really don't.
Love you ❤ Thank you for this conversation. I am thinking already for a while about the theme of the causal relationship between who a person is now and what their life was till this point, and it opens a whole new way of understanding the world. And now I discovered a scientific foundation for this. Certainly will read that book. Thank you!!!
He always has the dog running around in the background in all the podcasts I've seen him on 😂😂
We are born brimming with potential, but each interaction we experience shapes and sometimes limits our possibilities. Occasionally, we encounter situations so compelling or restrictive that they alter our perception of free will itself.