How The Triumph Stag WAS SABOTAGED BY BRITISH LEYLAND!? - The Story Of The Triumph V8
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video we cover one of the most controversial Triumph engines ever made. Engineered by Triumph this was supposed to be the next chapter for the british luxury tourer to take on the Mercedes R107 SL but due to supposed sabotage and I hope to demistify this engine, cover it's many issues and how British Leyland self sabotaged one of the most beautiful cars ever made showing how corporate culture can kill even the best products.
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my brother in law worked in the factory making them, he was always telling me stories of how some union workers sabotaged them, not to mention stealing lots of valuable parts out the factory, thankfully the stag had the last laugh becoming one of the biggest number of classic cars still existing today, he then moved to the tr7 factory in speke, similar story there
It shows how good it is, even with everything against it, the car still emerged as one of the highest survival rates.
Ye and that’s the reason the British industry disappeared
I have restored a Stag, and i can tell you that the engine is an absolute peach. The issue that i found was that the radiator wasn't up to the job, but i took the radiator to a company in Huddersfield that furnished me with something far better. Car and radiator now work in perfect harmony, and the car is spot on.
With the right improvements like you say I bet it is a great engine
@@tomdrives It's superb. Lots of grunt and as smooth as hell. I have a few cars, but this is one that will not be sold.
No improvements required as long as maintained correctly.
I was talking to a guy last week with a gorgeous TR6. We got to talking about Stags and he said exactly what you said about the radiators.
@@davidirons1856 The radiator was weak. I have a duel core unit now, and it sits in traffic fantastically . I look after all of my cars like my babies
Late wife owned one of the last Stags imported into Australia. It was indeed a joy to drive and a real head turner. We actually drove this Stag across Australia East to West. The perfect Grand Tourer
The merger between Boeing/Mcdonald Douglas sounds like BMC/Leyland... A complete disaster... A lack of investment, profits over quality. Shoddy workmanship.... Such a shame.... Keep Rovering on Tom. 👍🏻👍🏻
I do believe McDonnell Douglas were involved in that merger as well.
@@user-yq4sp5ij6u cheers for the correction user, 👍🏻 👌
What I find extraordinary about the Stag is just how many there are still on the roads today. I must see 2 or 3 nearly every week - terrific, considering the car’s foibles!
It shows you how much of a good impression they made on owners
Yep the ratio of sold cars to cars still on the road is insane, i have a friend with a stag and i have a metro and we agreed that even though 2 million metros were sold they are a lot rarer than stags are today because everyone kept stags and metros rotted away
I have a stag and sprint and questioned Reynolds at the time as to why the stag only had a simplex timing chain ?
They responded quite aggressive that their chains were quite adequate for most applications, I understood this means it was not their design some one in BL decided.
The cost cutting as you say even resulted in cheap gaskets and soft alloy composition of the heads as they were made by spun casting technique.
Around 46% of the cars sold in the UK are still registered with the DVLA. Not too shabby for a 50 year old car. This contrasts with less than 1% of Ford Capri's still being on the DVLA register.
Ant Anstead did a restoration of a Stag and took the fully original Stag to a cooling expert who did a full analysis of the well known overheating issues. His conclusion was that the cooling system was well up to the job! Their opinion was that many cars were not build well together and this was true for the cooling system. Badly filled cooling systems resulted in many known failures. Mind you, upgrading the cooling system is never a bad idea.
anstead is an overhyped pillock.
This is the best explanation of the Stag's engine issues I've heard from someone with obvious mechanical understanding. Please keep up the good work sir.
Thanks David
Never had a problem with my '73 manual stag engine. Gearbox kept dropping out of 3rd on overrun though. Dealers refused to touch it.
The engine might have had its problems but it was one of the best sounding ever.
Correct.
Hi from Sydney, Australia. I'm in my late 60's , back in the '70's my girlfriend Victoria had a 1965 Triumph 2000 a 4-door sedan, she was a nurse and was madly saving enough deposit to buy a 2nd hand Stag, and in 1979 bought a '77 model still with "mastercare" warranty program on it. Sadly, it was just off warranty when its engine died, mega fail. On the Northern Beaches of Sydney, years ago there was a Triumph wrecker at Brookvale. So, her dad Lyle, myself, a young doctor and my just retired industrial engineer grandad all went to look at several near new 2500 twin carb 4 door sedans that had been wrecked at rear, or side on impact, but great at front. We picked our engine and paid for it, my Pa borrowed a mate's Ute, Lyle already had an engine hoist and stand, as a submarine captain, his hobby was classic cars and he had 4 of them. So, over a long weekend, I gave 'Tori my Jaguar to use and all 3 of us guys cracked on and fitted the 2500 6cyl, benchmark, fitted like a hand in a glove didn't even take the whole 3-day long weekend.
After fitting it, tweaking it slightly, the 2500 TC had plenty of punch and as a manual, it revved well and was fun to drive. We did this makeover in 1981, 'Tori drove it with our 2500 makeover until X'mas 2010, when she finally sold it, so near 30 years of abject reliability from that excellent 6 cyl engine, BL/Triumph should have made an optional one with the 6-cylinder engine. Would have been a masterpiece. Mercedes Benz in their new for '71 SL's had a variety of engines in just a few years one could have ordered a 280SL, 300 SL, 350SL, 380SL, 420SL, 450SL, 500SL or even a 560SL. Surely to God some idiot at BL/Triumph could have seen Merc's offerings and copied with even just the 2500 even add a 2000 TC for a bit of fun using a high output Vitesse engine. OR since the mega BL merger, just "nick" the Buick 216ci V8 make the minor adaptions to fit the "Trumpy" engine bay, then sit back and enjoy some GM v8 reliability like found in the P5B Rovers, or the P6-3500 Rovers. Christ even as a young Doctor I could see what upper management at BL should have been doing from Sydney 12,000 miles away !!!!
AND, YES, I still own and drive my 1967 Jag' MK10/or/420G (to be precise) that I owned all those years ago it has given me near 50 years of excellent service, PLUS, I get just as much fun now when I get in and turn on the key and push the start button and hear the drone from the exhausts under acceleration that I did when I bought it in March 1975 !!! I'd bought it from another Doctor, who back then at age 52 had a massive stroke and could no longer drive, the Jag' was near new, low mileage and loved by its first owner, as its second owner I have done the same for one year off half a century. This was a special-order hand-built example with a high output bronze head like used in a Jag race car of the day with well more power than standard, ordered in deep cream with dark maroon "ox-blood" leather seats & carpet, it is a "jaguar" in sheep's clothing. Near 350bhp with performance handling option.
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So just a few years before Brit's could make damned fine cars. Plus other engineering marvels, just think of the Hawker Harrier Jump Jet, The Vulcan, the Vickers VC10 (the jag mk10 of the sky!! better than anything else, fly in one and then answer), or the British version of the Concorde.
The Stag V8 was actually a good engine but needed careful maintenance, particularly the cooling system. I owned one in the 1980’s that had been well maintained and I followed all the instructions. I sold it in the early 1990’s at 98k, 35k being my mileage. It was reliable but needed constant watching, particularly the coolant being aluminium. Many blocks were still full of casting sand, as m8be had been before the previous owner did a proper clean out. I changed oil, filters, and coolant at 3k miles regularly. That car is still on the road.
Im sure I read the radiator was too small. Im pretty sure this was also explained by Ant Anstead on that car show he did before Wheeler Dealers. Ive always liked them.
antstead is a midget standing on the shoulders of giants.
He did not "discover " this, it has been well known among mechanics for decades.
antstead is just showbiz.
Here we go with yet another reiteration of opinion that wrongly blames engine problems on design. There are many examples of Stag engines currently running perfectly well without failure, built properly with quality parts, and this proves that the design was not at fault. These modern day examples are still using the original heads, oil pumps, single row timing chains, original radiators etc etc. All the problems were caused by poor build quality, cheap parts (head gaskets), and incorrect maintenance.
I bought one, second hand and a bit ropey for cheap (£150), in 83, as I wanted to practice welding. Only 35k on it but it was pretty frilly around th edges and had sat for a few years awaiting that quick weekends work to sort it out, that never happens. Previous owner had it from new and had always used th correct coolant, and was on top of everything, mechanically, so, although it got taken apart and preventative fixes installed, better timing chains, water pump, it hadn't failed, thankfully th standard 70s vehicle corrosion saved it. I was 19 and skint, but I got really good at welding, it took me 3 years, and when I finally got it back on th road, I couldn't afford to insure it....£275 (my triumph 2.5 estate cost about 90 quid a year)....so I sold it, bought a wrecked camper van and several rolls of welding wire...
Stags were before my time, I ran a lot of TR7's, I remember one stag owner explaining to me that the radiator was too small and too low in the car resulting in silt clogging up and reducing the flow around the block. Shame I thought, the TR7 slant 4 engine is quite robust and can take some punishment, but requires the dedicated maintenance to ensure it runs right. I put 70-80K on TR7's back in the 80's no problem, though I have known a few Stag owners swapping out for the Rover V8.
For all its woes, i still think this is the best looking convertible car ever made. It was mostly as you said cooling issues. Most restored ones now have better larger radiators fitted and better rebuilt engines than what the factory built when the car was new.
An incredible car and let down only by the fact that dealers weren't used to dealing with the advanced engine design; ok with Allegros though. At the BL dealer I worked at a tech. replaced head gaskets on a Stag but couldn't rotate the engine to start it, so he had another guy tow him several times on a nearby service road but with no improvement. Turned out he had tightened the cam caps to F/T instead of 8lb/sq. in and so, as there were no cam bearing shells fitted, wrecked the cyl. heads. We would be in BMW's position now I think if this car had been as successful as it deserved.
Another fantastic video, Tom. As an interesting postscript, Saab fiddled with the Triumph V8 fairly extensively, initially in the 1970s by putting a handful of them in 99s for evaluation purposes, then in the late 1980s by comissioning Valmet to create a 4.0L DOHC V8 based on the Saab H-engine (itself an evolution of the Triumph Slant-4) though, thankfully, the block and heads shared nothing with the Stag's SOHC original. That V8 was tested in a couple of 9000s and, by most accounts, it worked brilliantly. Alas, Saab management figured it was too thirsty and ostentatious for the brand's image, and GM killed the program once and for all when it purchased a controlling interest in the company.
@tomanderson6335 Saab also toyed with a rotary engine in the 80s to put in the 99.
The ultimate idiocy was that they had the proven Buick-derived 3528cc V8 which they could have used & which was available off the shelf...
Said in video there was a shortage at the time, but yes I agree with you
Triumph/Leyland had already invested in the machinery to make this engine and couldn't afford not to use it! There's an interview in which Donald Stokes says as much.
@@johngibson3837 Shortages and logistics are mere excuses. The thing I find strange is that the English essentially invented the industrial revolution. A lack of resolve to iron fist production inventories as absolutes caused excusitus on every aspect. The Stag Four speed overdrive was my uncle's car from 1972 to 1988 in New Zealand..reliable, fast and well serviced, with ANSA style exhausts, simply the most delectable small V8 car of the 70's, this side of the Urraco, Alfa Romeo Montreal and 308 Dino's. Also engines with a fearsome reputation for not enjoying anything except...perfect service! People who bagshot the Stag, haven't driven the many that still serve their owners and are loved...to Bits! Thanks for the great work on this video, Tom. 12 out of 10, man! 🥝✔️
The 2500 engine fitted with a twin carb would have been perfectly adequate to power the stag.
Listen to spen king’s interview they had no more production capacity that was the reason p5 ,Range Rover in offing and P6B 50000 units a year they couldn’t make any more?
I live in Australia and as you all know, we have hot summers. I’ve had my stag restored and I drive it on 30 degree plus days. It doesn’t skip a beat, temp sits between 85-92 degrees and the engine is rock solid. Keep in mind this is city driving in Sydney, stopping and starting in traffic. No problems at all.
The engine has its issues but bad assembly and cleanliness were major issues along with little knowledge it wasn’t an anglia engine ,I’ve built loads there fine and are smooth as silk if built
Correctly.I did 27k in one of my stags as an exercise in 18 months ,hard motorway work with no issues many years ago.
Lots of oil changes after rebuild as well…
I’d love to drive one, I think they had the potential to be the greatest BL car ever made
From one Tom to another, that was a very informative video. And the car is so beautiful. As you say, Tom, there a group of very dedicated owners keep around 9000 (I think you said) of these cars running. I wonder if there are any steps that can be taken to make the engines genuinely more reliable - that is, rather than constant maintenance, some changes that make the units run better? They really are such good looking vehicles, though, and have dated suprisingly little. Thanks for all the detail - great editing and general tone of the script excellent as well. Tom (from France)
Relocation of header tanks and other modifications I’ve heard. Thanks Tom!
@@tomdrives And replace the water pump with the Ford v6 one, look it up online.
@@tomdrivesMight I suggest you Talk to the Stag owners club ( of which I am a member and car owner)
People who have never drove or owned this car love to ruminate anecdotes from people in a pub in the 1980’s who once knew someone that owned one and it was unreliable Etc Etc.
Circulation of whispers that are misinformation- Period
Mate.. get your information from the Stag owners club.
Believe me if these engines were crap they would have been long since junked. I would say ALL on the road have been sorted because of the Club, the interest and the enthusiasm and willingness to spend a little ( or a-lot) restoring!
I drove a Stag a fe w miles several years ago. This example had been fitted with a Ford Essex V6 engine by the previous owner. It saddened me that such a beautiful car had been spoiled by shortsighted decisions, poor management etc. Sadly, that is why Britain has no large volume indigenous motor industry today. I can think of numerous BL cars which snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
For once I agree with you. The engine killed the car, and BL did not do enough to prevent that happening, being blind to the potential of the car. I remember at the time, even the 2.5PI was a hugely desirable car, more so probably than the Rover 2000, though probably not the 3.5. Leyland should have forced Triumph to launch with the Rover V8. Okay, there may have been a shortage of internally sourced Rover V8s, but they could have outsourced. After all, this was a time when so many engineering companies were falling by the wayside and would have been glad of the licence work. When you consider the success of the Dolomite unit, there should have been a way to make that engine reliable and, especially with 32V, a potent machine.
The Stag's problem was an inadequate cooling system. Otherwise it could have been successful.
well done Tom, your presentation is so good keep going
Thanks Richard, I did some work on the sound as well so I hope that shows in the video.
When the Stag was launched in 1970, Jaguar was part of BL and was less than a year from introducing its V12. If Rover really couldn't boost production of its V8 (not credible - they managed it for the Range Rover), surely Jaguar could have produced a V8 version of its V12 for use in the Stag. Jaguar and Triumph were by then part of the same company. Lopping 4 cylinders off a purpose built V12 would surely have been better than welding 2 4-cylinders together to create a V8.
Good point
They could have developed the Daimler V8 rather than scrapping it!
Not really. If 4 cylinders were cut from the V12 to make a V8,it would've been a rough running engine. A 60° V8 would result in balancing problems with the crankshaft. Jaguar tried to do that and because of rough running/vibration issues,they scrapped the idea. A V8 needs a 90° angle between the both banks to run smoothly. Conversely the opposite is true for a V12. A 60° angle between the both banks is needed. I'm not an engineer but I understand the theory behind engine design having worked in the automotive industry for many years. And yes an upgrade to the radiator does improve the Stags cooling system efficiency. I've a friend who has three Stags in the US with no issues with their engines. Thx Tom for the video keep up the good work.
@@paulkirkland1535 fair point. I'll never be convinced that production capacity wasn't available to produceextra Rover V8 engines for the Stag. 4 months after the Stag's launch, extra Rover V8s were magically found for the Range Rover. 3 years later, BL found extra Rover V8s for the MGB GT V8. So why could these cars have it, but not the Stag?
Most of the engine design features that are often labelled as being weak or poor were actually quite sound but just somewhat ahead of their time, and the problems attended mostly from poor workmanship at manufacture and in servicing at dealerships.
The Stag V8 is part of the same engine family as the Dolomite 1850 and sprint (their slant 4 engines being effectively one half of the V8). These too (the sprint in particular) developed a similar reputation for unreliability. However, the same basic engine in the hands of SAAB achieved precisely the opposite reputation in the 99 and later the 99 turbo - which just goes to show they were perfectly reliable if built and maintained properly.
The sprint engine when sorted is an absolute delight - would have been great to have seen that doubled up into a 4 litre 32 valve V8 😁
Thanks Tom, the Stag is one of my all time favourites.
Same here!
A lovely looking car but ruined by typical BL incompetence. Triumph as part of the BL Group should have used the excellent Rover V8 which was lightweight, reliable, offered reasonable fuel economy and was very tuneable. This would have been more cost effective than spending a lot of money designing a new engine but from what I understand there was a historical rivalry between Triumph and Rover hence Triumph's reluctance to use a Rover power plant. Senior figures at BL should have stepped in and insisted that the Rover V8 be put in the Stag.
The main issue was the water pump mounted so high, so if the coolant level dropped at all then the coolant would stop pumping. The original V8 proposal had a belt-driven water pump mounted on the front of the block, but when Saab needed to turn the related slant 4 around through 180 degrees to put their gearbox ahead of it in the FWD Saab 99, there was no longer room for the water pump and pulley between the engine and Saab’s bulkhead. So Triumph had to put it on top of the cylinder block to suit both orientations, driven by a shaft that also drove the distributor and oil pump, and would have been used for a metering unit had they gone ahead with fuel injection.
Excellent episode, as always. The Stag is a fantastic looking and sounding car. The fact so many survive and are enjoyed tells you a lot. I’d love to have a Stag.
Glad you enjoyed it
It also served in the gritty private detective drama series featuring Nicholas ball : “hazell” a great series in my opinion🎉
Absolutely incredible videos! You're a fantastic storyteller 😎🔥👌
If I had one, sadly I don't, I would prefer the Rover engine in it.
Some people don't want to be honest about just how bad this engine ended up being, but your story is refreshingly truthful. The Stag is a beautiful car, but ended up being a wasted opportunity for BL.
I don’t think it was sabotaged, it was just badly designed and executed, built on the wrong architecture, cost cutting, poor workforce.
Strange how the RV8 managed to soldier on for what 60 years, despite being made by the same ‘company’
A bit of self sabotage as usual with BL
unfortunately many of the engine design failure points raised in this video are the same misinformation respun. there was never a problem with the head stud design (the studs corroded into the head thanks to material quality issues), aluminium heads with iron blocks are very common and don't need a special coolant, they just need the correct coolant i.e. green ethyl glycol antifreeze for that era which is also the corrosion inhibitor. the jackshaft failure was very very rare. the Snag had the correct low down torque for its chassis (put a Rover V8 in and you'll rapidly mash the differential from excessive torque).
with the exception of the timing chain issue, corrected with the later Duplex same length chain, all other engine problems came from poor build quality in turn from on/off striking workers and poor routine maintenance by the main agents et al.
I know all this because I worked for a Triumph Stag specialist. we took the botched Ford V6 and Rover V8 conversions and returned them to standard. we blue-printed numerous engines to how they should have left the factory.
many people get obsessed with the 3.5 litre Rover V8. its a good engine in the right application but its inefficient and in standard form the valley fills up with oil leaving the sump dry if its run continuously at high revs. thats why the TWR race version had scavenge pump take-offs at either end of the valley to pull the oil out. yep, I worked in their engine shop immediately after finishing the Snag apprenticeship.
the Snag is a superb package that was built by a company on a path of self-destruction. it summarises everything that was right with Triumph and wrong with BLMC.
While I agree with you… you’re a bit wrong there it isn’t misinformation. You’ve even self verified four of my points in your comment….
1. Issues with coolant being incorrect causing issues
2. Single row timing chain causing issues
3. Poor build quality
4. Lack of knowledge by dealer networks
While I don’t doubt you’ve got far more experience I disagree with the term “misinformation” being used.
When you call it "The Snag" is that an auto-correct or a deliberate nickname? Made me chuckle either way.
@@tomdrives
1. the coolant was correct from the factory and simply required the industry standard coolant of the time i.e. not 'special'
2. you'd have to be a complete animal to keep driving the engine with an original single-row worn out timing chain slapping all over the place and making the thing run really sick like on any car. I'd never seen an example on a Snag with engine damage from the original chain. whether this was from cost cutting or oversight I can't speculate but it was corrected to Duplex during the MK1 production run.
3 & 4.. I completely agree with you as per my original comments 😇
5. get yourself a car with the Ford Essex V4 and then you'll understand what sh*t engine really is lol
@@StupStupsits from the old fashioned analogue auto-correct situated between my ears. with few exceptions, when a customer came in with a faulty Stag they'd say something like 'I've got a Snag.' really good shorthand lol. thats the name which stuck. thankfully back in the day they were owned by surgeons and other higher level academics who had a real sense of humour
Self destruction?
The uk in general has emulated the Slag!
It sounded great tho
One of the secrets was getting the cam timing exactly right by adjusting the shims and giving the pistons room to move and slap a bit as they were too tight. Lumonition Ported and balanced I could pull 6500 in overdrive with a higher diff ratio on a cold day. Knowing a few Cosworth engine builders helped.
Happens in any top heavy organisation. Cost cutting, 'brilliant ideas', short sightedness.
I remember it being launched and WOW what a car it looked
I believe that the BL management of the time were also part of the board that created the R101 airship many years before.
Although I might've made that up, it doesn't sound unbelievable... :o(
😂 it seems to be a common thing
Was going to say that makes sense 😆 Then realised hang on 😆
Great video, Stag owners of today are aware of upgrades to eliminate various problems its reputation came with. As you say in your video some 9000 stags are survivors and running the original triumph V8 with minimal faults and strong reliability. It would be another great video if you did something that reflects the owners of Stags and the modifications such as a higher header tank and bigger radiators etc, as for overheating I live in Australia and my stag hasn't missed a beat coolant wise. Cheers
I repaired a blown heaD GASKET ON ONE IN 1975. The angled studs were a bad design fault. They normally had to be drilled out on a milling machine. Why didn't they use the Rover V8 engine, orJaguar V12? and fit a larger radiator.
I have owned 4 of these, first one was a 73 model [cost £600]and was scrapped due to rot, second was a 72, [cost£3,800] timing chain jumped off on the second day of ownership [destroyed engine], put a Rover V8 in it, kept the original Stag exhaust and nobody knew it was a Rover under the bonnet and was a daily driver.
Third was a 74, [cost £4,200] and had nice paintwork but bumped it and realised it was full of cataloy filler. [Don't be fooled by shiny paint].
Sold the 74 for spares and the 72 [Rover V8] and bought a 1975,[cost £5,000]manual with original Stag V8, was good apart from a leak in the 'V', heater matrix blew and scolded my feet, Stromberg carb's leaked if left for more than 2 months.
Sold the 75 in 2011[operation and sick pay ran out] for £3,100 on Ebay and is still on the road, he got a real bargain as it was insured at the time for £10,000.Would i have another? yes but can't afford one as the prices are ridiculous now.
I don't agree the Stag V8 was that bad, it had been remarkably easy to remedy its problems, you need to take a look at some of the other videos on TH-cam on The Stag. What I do believe is they should have been allowed to use the Buick V8 and given it a tweak or two to 190+ bhp.
I thought they designed the engine bay to small for the rover V8 to fit
No it would have fitted I’ve read with minor adjustments.
@@stuartross282that was jaguar with the xj40.
I had a Rover V8 in one of mine but you had to fit twin Webers or a Holley carb, as the SU's were too high and fouled the bonnet.@@stuartross282
Usual story with BL buetifully looking cars, but let down mechanically. Thank you Tom, your research and delivery is why I love your channel. Keep going mate.
Very well researched and explained yet again. Brilliant. Keep up the good work.
I bought a Stag in about 1992. I had to change the timing chain and was amazed how easy it was to do.
The car was Ok, but I went back to Jaguars soon after. It's Reg was EAR ***K. Can't remember the numbers.
A chap I knew in the early 1970's had a new Stag, he was not too happy with it and on one of it's services at BL Guildford they forgot to tighten the sump plug, the plug came out on the A3 and the engine siezed. He said the replacement engine was as sweet as a nut and he never had any further problems and was very happy with it.
The Stag production was soon canned and that was that.
Notice at 3:31 that the upper head bolts are on the skew (not parallel to the bore axes). That is what led to head gasket failures. Should have built another Rover V8 production line.
Im talking over 25yrs ago now. I helped my then step dad restore his white stag. Full nut and bolt only issue he had was the cooling system,he also had a manual black stag pick up.
Another point re alleged lack of production capacity for extra Rover V8 engines for the Stag. I recall that, prior to the launch of the MGB GT V8 in August 1973, BL supplied Rover V8s to a guy called Ken Costello who put them in MGB GTs to create his own V8 versions. What was stopping BL cutting off the supply of V8s to Costello, as they did when they launched their own V8-engined MGB GT, and giving them to Triumph to put in the Stag? And what about the 4-litre engine used in the Australia-only Leyland P76? Couldn't the Stag have used that? I'm hearing that the worst possible engineering option for the Stag's engine, namely the welding together of 2 4-cylinder units to create a bespoke V8 for use in only one car, was the only one. Is this really true?
Why did they go to the expense of a brand new engine when they had the bulletproof Buick v8 ?
Triumph started developing the new V8 engine before the merger with Rover, before they would have access to the Buick / Rover V8
The Triumph slant 4 and V8 were modern aluminium OHC engines which was the way to go for the 70s… Triumph was a fairly independent innovative brand.
Typical BL. Cost cutting and incompetence to the fore. I do wonder why the straight six wasn't even an option. A six cylinder 2.5 really appeals
I think a 2.5L would’ve been a good addition even if it was just in its home market.
In Australia the 2.5L V8 was sometimes replaced by a much more reliable and powerful GM 253 cu. in V8 which was used in Holden's.
As far as substandard Triumphs, the TR7 I think was an even worse car.
I always loved the Stag, and would have bought one given the cash! Like you stated the car was ruined by shoddy workmanship, cheap parts from other models, and the metal quality was inferior. very similar happened with another potential world beater the Rover SD1 If you can watch the programme Car SOS. Both these cars have been on it, and Fuzz explains where exactly BL went wrong sadly.......
I always reckoned that MG-Rover should have made a 2 door MG Magnette Coupe out of the Rover 75 body, and also a 2 door open Coupe called the Triumph Stag.
They would have made stunning looking cars.
The what-if's of motoring history.
Rover SD1 V8 won't let you down.
Never stood a chance against the Mercedes SL. When the stag reached the market the R107 350 SL had been launched and was crushingly superior in every way - strong and reliable V8 without any of the dozens of issues plaguing the Stag’s powerplant, a proper full convertible without all the overhead ironmongery because Mercedes engineered the windscreen to provide rollover protection. The R107 was built to uncompromising quality standards and outsold the Stag 10 to 1 even though it was double the price. Stag could have been wonderful but was compromised from the start and never given the opportunity to be a success.
The Stag is a stunning looking car and I believe people have sorted out the original V8 and it is now reliable. Another great video many thanks.
I have one with a Rover 4.4 litre engine in it - It is quite quick!
If you look at modern new car engines they have exactly the same problem with timing chain problems😮😮😅😅😢😢 😊
I always loved the look of this car
In just over three years from new, I covered over 90,000 reliable miles in a Dolomite Sprint. It had the same engine block; as, so I believe, did the engines used in centemporary Saabs. Dolly Sprint heads would have given all the power needed to show a Merc 'Pagoda' SL a clean pair of heels.
The Dolomite Sprint is a real icon.
The Dolomite Sprint is a real icon.
@@tomdrivesI liked eveything about mine other than the colour [mimosa yellow - it attracted hordes of little black fying critters] and the Lucas connectors that were utter rubbish.
I had a Stag 20 odd years ago. Great engine. Sounds so much nicer than Rover V8. Beautiful soundtrack when hood is down.
Unfortunately Tom, I think the root cause was Donald Stokes. The problem being that his background was in sales and marketing, not engineering. When BLMC was formed in 1968 new products were required quickly and Stokes was a hard task master. The Marina being a prime example where Harry Webster and his team knew the suspension geometry wasn't right, but Stokes insisted that the launch could not be delayed, hence the furore over poor handling. Another example, very similar to the Stag, was the V8 powered AEC Mandator premium specification tractor unit. Rushed onto the market woefully underdeveloped with an inadequate cooling system and big end journals too narrow for the power of the engine. Again, like the Stag, given proper development the AEC Mandator V8 should and would have been a world beater. Three mistakes, right at the start of BL's existence that starved the company of the vital funds for future development projects.
Keep up the good work.
I bought my 1977 Stag 22 years ago with a blown engine and did not for one second think of repairing it. The car should always have had the Rover engine in it. I therefore fitted a 3.9 V8 from a Range Rover and still to this day the car has run without fault. The owners I know who still run the Triumph motor ( the purists ) will tell you that with modern radiators, electric fans etc that the problems are solved but in truth the Triumph engine is no comparison the the Rover V8
the numbers left say it all Tom
Yep, brilliant car. Just a shame it didn’t have the right start.
cant win em all@@tomdrives
@@a11cscto me it shows just how amazing it was that even though it was flawed it still to this day has such a model survival rate. Art isn’t perfect ;) and that car is art!
There's a stag in regular use note far from me in Chapeltown Sheffield but don't know if its has the original engine in it
The Stag was and is the most beautiful fun car ever bar none. Sorry E-Type the Stag just wins hand down. It was sabotaged by the 'Reds' with Russian backing but so much of British industry and later European industry was attacked and wrecked by the same culprits. What a fabulous car.
This is what happens when you put enemies in the same concern, it started with Austin and Morris enemies being merged into BMC, then the rest followed, Rover, Jaguar and Triumph were rivals, MG and Triumph were rivals and then there was Mini that eternal example of classless motoring the car everybody loved which was produced too long and its successor could not hold a candle to the competition from the continent
I rebuilt a stag motor for a friend, was astounded at the poor design and build quality, so many bad design decisions cam chains to light, off angle head bolts, 7.5-1 compression ratio, water pump driven through the cam, if the seals fail you right off the motor. 27 gram difference between lightest and heaviest piston and rod assembly. The motor starts tearing itself apart from day one. The one I built had 65000klms motor had to be completely rebuilt/ balanced/port matched and every machining process known to man. A total sh*t box.
The secret of success with a Stag engine is very careful assembly which is not something that was ever possible on a 1970s BL production line, then careful maintenance. The weakest spot is undersized main bearings, ironically the engine loves rpm but doesn’t last well with low rpm and big throttle openings due to this flaw. I build some very high performance Stag engines using fuel injection, and apart from fast road cams the internal engine components are all standard. I can reliably achieve over 250bhp with excellent fuel economy and no reliability issues, though I must admit to binning the original water pump as when they go wrong they can cause catastrophic damage.
I have such a soft spot for the ol' Staaaaaaaaaaaag. Shame they put in a shitty radiator that couldn't handle the engine. I will die on this hill that the engine was NEVER the problem.
It's a nice video interesting details, but just saying that iron block+aluminium head combination is not really a problem and is very commonly used, and Duplex chain means two-row chain and not two chains. Angled head bolts are also not unique to this engine, check out some Cosworth engines👍
The head to block combination isn’t the issue, it’s the use of the incorrect coolant.
Another possible engine option for the Stag would have been the Jaguar XK engine in 2.8 litre or 3.4 litre form. Yes it wasn't a V8 but was a V8 really necessary for the US? The Dstsun 240Z never had a V8 yet it still became the US's best selling sports car. The UK market version could manage a 125mph top speed with a 6 cylinder engine of just 2.4 litres. With the 3.4 litre Jag engine, the Stag could easily have matched that, at least in manual transmission form. With the E-Type being V12-powered, Jaguar need not have feared internal competition from a 6-cylinder XK engined Stag. Was the real problem not lack of production capacity, but a total absence of "jointery" and co-operation between the various arms of British Leyland? History seems to read that the worst possible engineering option for the Stag - the welding together of two four cylinder engines to create a bespoke V8 used in only one car, was the only option. I for one have had cause to doubt that. What does anyone else think?
I’m liking your project cars. I’ve got 2004 mini Cooper s and a 2007 TDV8 Range Rover vogue im working on
Good stuff, I’d love a Cooper S myself especially the earlier one you’ve got. Range Rover L322 is a bit of an institution in my eyes, quite the car and one I’ll own one day for sure.
@@tomdrives replacing the cylinder head in one side coz I m mutilated an injector bolt hole oops.
This is one of the most 😫 depressing British Leyland examples of management's cost cutting tales ever told. This car was launched in preparation for the coming 1973 energy crisis. One asks the question, "Why didn't British Leyland simply use the power plant from the discontinued MGC, with up to date emissions controls"? Everyone in the US was making less powerful environmentally friendlier power plants. The torque output of the three liter engine would have given the car a more brawny feel and a dual exhaust system would have given it a sweeter melody. Michael Edwardes was an incompetent idiot who deliberately ran the company into the ground while lining his own pockets.
I personally think that the Triumph Stag was the most beautiful car. It should have been a world beater. The only issue I have with the styling is that "T Bar". It would have looked so much better without it..
And why not use the Rover V8?
Because the chassis legs were so close together that fitting it was nigh on impossible. Under the skin, this beautiful car had a prehistoric floor design for very narrow 4 or 6 cylinder in line engine.
All those Stags might be registered, ..... but I reckon the majority of them spend most of the time stored in their owner's garage!
Long and the short the car was beautiful the best shape next to the e type ,watch the video ‘The Dream Car’ quite sad ,but the stag made it really ,it wouldn’t have been the same with the rover engine ,weirdly it was right for it 😊
Voorsprung durch tecnic! 😉
Insisting on a V8 for the US market misread the US market. It had the market to itself with substantially more back seat room than a Porsche Targa for substantially less than a Rolls. After 1972 the only other 4+ seat convertibles were the VW Super Beetle and the full size GMs.
From the 70s - 90s BL/Rover misread the US market consistently from what I’ve read.
You are rigt desasterus engin in a beautiful car i had one 74 model strugeling whid it for 5 yares and 2 engins and 4 heads.
If the engines are re built correctly.. ie Faversham Classics for one .. no problem... oil change every 3k ... Thing is , ALL 60s and 70s super cars .... E Types ... Aston’s ...for example , all overheated ...and rotted away ... it’s just because, in the main .. it’s B.L .Once properly rebuilt AND maintained correctly they are as good as anything out there . Also don’t forget, the great and legendary designer who created this beauty
The car as another comment said, showed everything right with Triumph and everything wrong with British Leyland.
They Should've Used The Rover V8 2:46
I'd love a stag wether it's got a triumph or rover engine underneth under rated grand tour classic
It is and it’s a shame it didn’t get the start it deserved. Thankfully the owners took it into their own hands.
Oh ... quit being so negative Otis
Every step they just took the wrong step didn’t they ! Incredible errors at every turn. 🤦🏼♂️
The problem for this car can be seen in two letters: S L
Such potential…😕
A weak engine design, however with correct knowledge and maintenance, absolutely fantastic as long as driven hard & 'red lined' at every opportunity 👍
Not another why it failed, we know , the engine is good , funny how so many thousands of stags are running fine without issues with the triumph engine , it was how it was put together , it shares many things with other engines , timing chains that need to be replaced, head studs difficult to remove like Alfa Jag engines ,water pump issues can be cured by gravity fed header tank , oil changes, and coolant for alloy , not tap water , size ratio off crank bearings will be found in other V8s , more likely cranks with no hardning , short stroke for more torque rod ratio , and head design is Buick push rod nailhead from 1956 to 1966 , ignore maintenance and you get the same result with any engine , it's an easy engine to work on simple ,
Hi❤please my history of my Ford mk2 is
Yes a sabotage, BL have the fantastic compact V8 3.5 Litre Rover (ex GM Buick) why the development of the not great Triumph V8 2500 from two 4 cylinder Triumph?
The car of my dreams...
I’d love one as well, amazing car
A bit exagerated...
And un/misinformed people blame unions for the demise of the Stag and Leyland.
Unions had no say in the disastrous specifications that the Stag was burdened with, which were the real reasons for its demise.
But stoopid people will still blame unions because it conforms with their biases.
There is no such thing as bad men, there is only bad officers.
That said, all the problems of the Stags are sorted now and they are ripping cars.