Van's doing what he and his Company does best. No nonsense straight forward facts, engineering, and excellent design. As a former aircraft structures engineer who worked on Commercial Airliners and military planes and two time RV kit plane builder, this analysis and testing is what I hoped they would do. Regrettable the circumstances that lead Van's and customers here, laser cut parts, QB kit shipping cost.... However the transparency, communication, is really amazing. I don't think they could do anything more.
@@Pilotpaulie I feel bad for all the builders effected. I am no expert. Have all my Van kits long ago and pre laser cut.... I hope you get your engine or deposit back... I think it will work out, but will take time, a year or two is my wild guess.
@@Pilotpaulie I agree. No expert in Chapter 11 Re-Organization but I take it you are an unsecured creditor with everyone else.. The courts will dictate how to pay you off and everyone. The questions is when, how, how much. For people with kit deposits they will get the credit and the kit. The bad news is cost went up from what they expected to pay. Refunds? Don't know. . So in a word you and everyone is mixed together, along with vendors. As far as engine deposit, I imagine it will be homered but engine cost may go up? Refund? Sure why not. When? Who knows at this point. Who is prioritized in settling is or will be public at that court website. I don't think they are that far. Right now they are trying as Richard said, to keep operations going so they have a business to save....They need to pay the light bill, payroll and parts, from vendors so that is where money is going. Chap 11 just allows a business to hold off paying debts in the short term. They will settle with people such as yourself, with engine deposits, by filling engine orders/ I can sympathize that is not a pleasant place to be. Full Refund? That is a reasonable expectation if you opt for that, but will be down the priority list... meaning longer wait..... The question is WHEN? They will pay vendors first so they have parts, kits to sell and make revenue. Refunds will be last. If you still want engine and willing to pay increased shipping or any Lycoming price increase you will likely get there sooner. Again I am guessing. Van's will not and can not talk to you, since the courts are controlling all this. I don't think it will be soon for anyone, but a year or two is my guess.... Ethically I think Van intends to make it right while saving the business. The saving business is key and patience by builders.. I wish you luck with a good and swift resolution to your satisfaction. Right now it sucks I know....
Now that’s how you do customer service. Give the clients the assurance they need to maintain the highest confidence in the product and offer a replacement with punched holes if the video leaves a lingering doubt. THank you VANS.
The RV-7 I finished in 2007 has given me 1580hrs of joy and trouble-free operation; I've applied every SB and no cracks have appeared. I look forward to the release of your RV-15 kit so I can get started on it. I feel the anguish of those with laser-cut parts and hope that you can overcome this. I tip my hat to Van for his dogged efforts and devotion to making sure his company continues to be the world's premier designer and producer of aircraft kits.
Thank you very much for sharing this! I feel like this is exactly the information we needed. Looking forward to digging into the long format presentation to learn more.
I’m gonna put this up top since there are a lot of uninformed opinions here. If the stresses are low enough, which most sheet metal on small aircraft is (it’s often driven by minimum gauge) - cracks will not grow to any critical length. They will be below the stress intensity threshold. They are speaking the truth. I’m a fatigue and damage tolerance engineer (aka - crack engineer) who works on Part 25 aircraft (jets). I don’t have a Van’s kit, but there is no cover up here. They are being very forthcoming and their presentation is a great engineering summary. As an aerospace engineer - this presentation gives me HUGE confidence in Van’s engineering. They are ticking the right boxes. I’m absolutely a buyer when they get out of bankruptcy and get the RV-15 design perfected.
The question I want to heart the answer to is what affect does the laser process (cutting using heat) have on the age hardening and heat treatment specification of the aluminium? I know it's only local to the cut, but it's a factor that short term testing, even accelerated testing, won't show! Nice to see the visibility of the company, but it doesn't make sense that if LCP are ok, then why stop using that method of manufacture? That doesn't make sense to me, unless there is something still not fully explained here!
I suspect quality control. if the vendors keep screwing it up, then best to stop using the method to avoid the quality control issues resulting from vendors deviating and not telling anyone. Van's issues resulted from vendors doing improper work. Using a corrosive coating, and not cutting holes using the correct specified method. We'd had similar issues where I work, and so we change designs to prevent vendors from screwing it up again. These mistakes cost companies money, as they have to be addressed/fixed. Avoiding such mistakes from happening again prevents future loss of money.
@SoloRenegade In that case, there is a glaring hole in Van's quality too. Where I work, every batch from a supplier has a couple of items taken from it and tested for dimension, quality and finish BEFORE that batch ever sees production or parts shipping. Quality is a continuous process throughout product manufacturing, not just something you push onto your supplier and 'hope' they deliver what you asked them to ... because give a supplier any opportunity and they WILL change/adapt their process to make it cheaper and quicker for them!
@@simonbaxter8001 yes, but Asian vendors have a nasty habit of swapping out materials Afterwards without telling anyone. You can do all the pre-production inspections you want, and someone will still try to change to something cheaper on you Later, despite you explicitly defining what they were required to use.
In fact theres no other answer that would keep the company afloat so the stuff theyre saying has a conflict of interest. I do not beleive anyone who says manufactiring cracks have no effect on service life. Look up crack length vs cycles. Theyve just removed the long long cycle region where the crack is extremely short. There are numerous sbs that show cracks in aircraft and that directly contradicts the graph they put up
@SoloRenegade I don't mean a one off forst article inspection of an out sourced part, I mean a sample inspection of each and EVERY batch you receive from that supplier. We all know suppliers never deliver the same part as the one that they put 110% into to secure the contract and we all know ow that they will change their process or deviate from the manufacturing intent at some point due to material shortages, machinery changes, personal changes, cost cutting, etc. Van's 'goods received' QA should have caught this much earlier. After watching the full video, I also can't believe that in an aircraft structure, they are saying that manufactured cracks are acceptable ... sounds like something Boeing would say!
Excellent testing review gents. In short, JUST BUILD THE PLANE, RV builders. These airplanes are incredibly robust and tolerant of builder errors. My RV8 is on it's fourth owner now and it is still out there getting it done safely. War birds that were hammered together by all manner of inexperienced personnel with no doubt rough or elongated holes, cleated rivets, etc, are STILL flying today. JUST BUILD THE PLANE and carry on.
With a cold water cut, the bed it is cut on, may have to be better supported ,for the aluminium parts (there is very little heat with laser cutting with water )
Or if you do LCP have quality be so bad. I'm not sure LCP's are bad, but their approach was terrible. It's so out of character for vans, that's what I don't get. Some of the LCP parts had totally obvious flaws. Did they not have their own QC at the factory prior to shipment or pull samples from batches?
AOPA reporting that there will be a 30% increase of the parts and kits going forward. How does a company not realize that they were falling short by 30% of producing a profitable product ? WOW. I do wish them well.
This is very unfortunate. They should offer to replace all LCPs not just those they recommend. If not, they face the prolonged challenge of regaining market confidence-which will cost substantially more in the long run.
This smells like a cover up to me. Cracks cannot be safe. Even if they were I’m not going to spend over $120k and years of labor to build an airplane that starts life with cracks. Vans, it seems you arrived at a fork in the road and took the wrong turn down lawyer lane.
Cracks are all over your part 23 aircraft, and the standard “repair” is to drill the tip - often multiple times. If the stresses are low enough, which most sheet metal on small aircraft is (it’s often driven by minimum gauge) - cracks will not grow to any critical length. They will be below the stress intensity threshold. They are speaking the truth. I’m a fatigue and damage tolerance engineer (aka - crack engineer) who works on Part 25 aircraft (jets). I don’t have a Van’s kit, but there is no cover up here. They are being very forthcoming and their presentation is a great engineering summary. As an aerospace engineer- this presentation gives me HUGE confidence in Van’s engineering. They are ticking the right boxes. I’m absolutely a buyer when they get out of bankruptcy and get the RV-15 design perfected.
Wanna buy a newer Vans Aircraft . It was built using LAsER CUT PARTS and Your asking price is "WHAT" and the power plant is a Lycoming O320 H2AD=Feet don't fail Me now.
Lifelong fan of fans aircraft. I hope they come out of this, but I seriously doubt they will . The manual I have says no cracks are acceptable. That is since been revised. Suddenly cracks are acceptable. This whole problem for Vance isn’t just about laser cut parts. Poor quality control on build kits overseas cost them a ton of money then during Covid, they tried to outrun their headlights and change the way they produce parts. It caught up with them. Bringing in new faces and increasing the price of kits and parts dramatically is not the fix. Where is Greg Hughes. Vans should have stopped taking orders and had people on a waitlist instead of outsourcing these laser cut parts. The bottom line is would you rather have a part that’s laser cut or a part that is punched? I know which one I would want this is also sad Building a vans aircraft is no longer a viable option for the largest majority of aviation enthusiast. What was one day an economical choice for a person with a little bit of talent and mechanical know how has become unreachable.
You can Finance kits, engines, avionics. And this is almost entirely because of Vans aircraft. They normalized experiential/homebuilt aircraft. And now the banks recognize them for what they are. Modern E/AB aircraft are not Your granddaddy's airplane. If you want economical, you can still build a sonnex, peitenpol, or even a pitts. Aircraft cost is directly related to weight, which is related to size. And capability, which is related to power, and avionics. If you reduce size and capability from that of an RV-8 or -10, down to a Sonex with a basic panel, the cost is the same or less than a new Harley Davidson, or a couple of Jetskis.
Fail Safe fatigue testing of cracked components should be left to the megabuck commercial and military aerospace industry with carefully regulated and documented inspection procedures. The average experimental/homebuilt owner/builder is not going to know which cracks are acceptable and in which locations. This push by Vans to "allow" cracks bucks the long history of normal workmanship standards, which is that cracks are not right and inherently bad and cause for concern and contemplation. The typical kit builder who is unable to complete a scratch built project because there are no detailed instruction manuals available does not have the ability to determine whether an existing crack is critical or not. This "good news" that testing has shown that not all cracks are created equal is not a suitable conclusion for use by the general population. Much confusion is going to occur if this is the path that is encouraged to accept. This is not a dig at Joe Builder, it is a dig at pushing complex acceptance criteria for cracks onto an untrained community at large. This is not following the KISS principle.
Vans: laser cut parts are perfectly safe! Also Vans: we’re no longer producing parts by laser cutting. This is just bullshit fluff. Y’all screwed up big time and are doing some major damage control (pun intended!)
Laser cut was never the issue. It was where the laser cuts started and stopped that was the issue. The usual process is to start the cut off the intended like... so for the cracking holes, you'd instead start inside the hole and spiral out to the final cut line. They cracked because the point where the laser started resulted in a slightly larger cut than the rest of the line, resulting in a stress concentration.
It does sound like a lot of lawyer speak. I know folks are passionate about Vans aircraft and its owner, but I agree the 180 pivot from one of the major problems that caused need to declare bankruptcy is no longer an issue?
No amount of fatigue testing in a lab will persuade me to induce hundreds of incipitent cracks on an airframe. Some of the commenters on here are clearly delusional and reflect the low calibre of the vans community.
Vans miss the bigger issue! Whilst they are scrambling to con the buyer/builder to accept pre-cracked parts the fools forget that the LCP issue will be a stigma that will follow an effected airframe for life, making a sale a headache with a poorer value than a proper built version!🤮
Van's doing what he and his Company does best. No nonsense straight forward facts, engineering, and excellent design. As a former aircraft structures engineer who worked on Commercial Airliners and military planes and two time RV kit plane builder, this analysis and testing is what I hoped they would do. Regrettable the circumstances that lead Van's and customers here, laser cut parts, QB kit shipping cost.... However the transparency, communication, is really amazing. I don't think they could do anything more.
They could tell me where my engine deposit went. That would be nice.
@@Pilotpaulie I feel bad for all the builders effected. I am no expert. Have all my Van kits long ago and pre laser cut.... I hope you get your engine or deposit back... I think it will work out, but will take time, a year or two is my wild guess.
@@gmcjetpilot Here’s to hope 🥂. If the deposit funding was truly mixed into general revenue, could be an issue.
@@Pilotpaulie I agree. No expert in Chapter 11 Re-Organization but I take it you are an unsecured creditor with everyone else.. The courts will dictate how to pay you off and everyone. The questions is when, how, how much. For people with kit deposits they will get the credit and the kit. The bad news is cost went up from what they expected to pay. Refunds? Don't know. . So in a word you and everyone is mixed together, along with vendors. As far as engine deposit, I imagine it will be homered but engine cost may go up? Refund? Sure why not. When? Who knows at this point. Who is prioritized in settling is or will be public at that court website. I don't think they are that far.
Right now they are trying as Richard said, to keep operations going so they have a business to save....They need to pay the light bill, payroll and parts, from vendors so that is where money is going. Chap 11 just allows a business to hold off paying debts in the short term. They will settle with people such as yourself, with engine deposits, by filling engine orders/ I can sympathize that is not a pleasant place to be. Full Refund? That is a reasonable expectation if you opt for that, but will be down the priority list... meaning longer wait..... The question is WHEN? They will pay vendors first so they have parts, kits to sell and make revenue. Refunds will be last. If you still want engine and willing to pay increased shipping or any Lycoming price increase you will likely get there sooner. Again I am guessing. Van's will not and can not talk to you, since the courts are controlling all this.
I don't think it will be soon for anyone, but a year or two is my guess.... Ethically I think Van intends to make it right while saving the business. The saving business is key and patience by builders.. I wish you luck with a good and swift resolution to your satisfaction. Right now it sucks I know....
@@gmcjetpilot well said. Thank you!
Now that’s how you do customer service. Give the clients the assurance they need to maintain the highest confidence in the product and offer a replacement with punched holes if the video leaves a lingering doubt. THank you VANS.
The RV-7 I finished in 2007 has given me 1580hrs of joy and trouble-free operation; I've applied every SB and no cracks have appeared. I look forward to the release of your RV-15 kit so I can get started on it. I feel the anguish of those with laser-cut parts and hope that you can overcome this. I tip my hat to Van for his dogged efforts and devotion to making sure his company continues to be the world's premier designer and producer of aircraft kits.
Thanks!!! Just what everyone has come to expect from Vans!!!
Thank you for the overview, and even more so for the long form version!
Thanks!!! Been working with Van's for 27 years, and still very pleased with the product.
Van's is the most respected aircraft company in the world and has been for decades for reasons like this. Thanks for the video Mr. V.
Thanks for sharing this information. It's very reassuring and hopefully will put many builder's minds at ease.
Thank you very much for sharing this! I feel like this is exactly the information we needed. Looking forward to digging into the long format presentation to learn more.
I’m gonna put this up top since there are a lot of uninformed opinions here.
If the stresses are low enough, which most sheet metal on small aircraft is (it’s often driven by minimum gauge) - cracks will not grow to any critical length. They will be below the stress intensity threshold. They are speaking the truth.
I’m a fatigue and damage tolerance engineer (aka - crack engineer) who works on Part 25 aircraft (jets). I don’t have a Van’s kit, but there is no cover up here. They are being very forthcoming and their presentation is a great engineering summary.
As an aerospace engineer - this presentation gives me HUGE confidence in Van’s engineering. They are ticking the right boxes. I’m absolutely a buyer when they get out of bankruptcy and get the RV-15 design perfected.
^ Thank You for Your summery.
So: cracks during assembly / manufacturing of RVs are now OK? I'm sorry but I am not convinced this is the case.
good news!
The question I want to heart the answer to is what affect does the laser process (cutting using heat) have on the age hardening and heat treatment specification of the aluminium? I know it's only local to the cut, but it's a factor that short term testing, even accelerated testing, won't show! Nice to see the visibility of the company, but it doesn't make sense that if LCP are ok, then why stop using that method of manufacture? That doesn't make sense to me, unless there is something still not fully explained here!
I suspect quality control. if the vendors keep screwing it up, then best to stop using the method to avoid the quality control issues resulting from vendors deviating and not telling anyone.
Van's issues resulted from vendors doing improper work. Using a corrosive coating, and not cutting holes using the correct specified method.
We'd had similar issues where I work, and so we change designs to prevent vendors from screwing it up again. These mistakes cost companies money, as they have to be addressed/fixed. Avoiding such mistakes from happening again prevents future loss of money.
@SoloRenegade In that case, there is a glaring hole in Van's quality too. Where I work, every batch from a supplier has a couple of items taken from it and tested for dimension, quality and finish BEFORE that batch ever sees production or parts shipping. Quality is a continuous process throughout product manufacturing, not just something you push onto your supplier and 'hope' they deliver what you asked them to ... because give a supplier any opportunity and they WILL change/adapt their process to make it cheaper and quicker for them!
@@simonbaxter8001 yes, but Asian vendors have a nasty habit of swapping out materials Afterwards without telling anyone. You can do all the pre-production inspections you want, and someone will still try to change to something cheaper on you Later, despite you explicitly defining what they were required to use.
In fact theres no other answer that would keep the company afloat so the stuff theyre saying has a conflict of interest. I do not beleive anyone who says manufactiring cracks have no effect on service life.
Look up crack length vs cycles. Theyve just removed the long long cycle region where the crack is extremely short.
There are numerous sbs that show cracks in aircraft and that directly contradicts the graph they put up
@SoloRenegade I don't mean a one off forst article inspection of an out sourced part, I mean a sample inspection of each and EVERY batch you receive from that supplier. We all know suppliers never deliver the same part as the one that they put 110% into to secure the contract and we all know ow that they will change their process or deviate from the manufacturing intent at some point due to material shortages, machinery changes, personal changes, cost cutting, etc. Van's 'goods received' QA should have caught this much earlier. After watching the full video, I also can't believe that in an aircraft structure, they are saying that manufactured cracks are acceptable ... sounds like something Boeing would say!
Excellent testing review gents. In short, JUST BUILD THE PLANE, RV builders. These airplanes are incredibly robust and tolerant of builder errors. My RV8 is on it's fourth owner now and it is still out there getting it done safely. War birds that were hammered together by all manner of inexperienced personnel with no doubt rough or elongated holes, cleated rivets, etc, are STILL flying today. JUST BUILD THE PLANE and carry on.
Thanks for the info!
Well done 🫡
Excellent
With a cold water cut, the bed it is cut on, may have to be better supported ,for the aluminium parts (there is very little heat with laser cutting with water )
The one item that needs addressed by Vans is how in the world did they think that producing LCP was acceptable in the first place?
I agree with you 100%
Or if you do LCP have quality be so bad. I'm not sure LCP's are bad, but their approach was terrible. It's so out of character for vans, that's what I don't get. Some of the LCP parts had totally obvious flaws. Did they not have their own QC at the factory prior to shipment or pull samples from batches?
So no rv will ever have a fatigue crack below 12,000 hours from your graph
The youtube advertisement before this video for me was a CO2 laser cutter...The TH-cam algo really got that one wrong...
I have an RV that i built 27 years ago. Do you have one?
That’s good news
AOPA reporting that there will be a 30% increase of the parts and kits going forward. How does a company not realize that they were falling short by 30% of producing a profitable product ? WOW. I do wish them well.
This is very unfortunate. They should offer to replace all LCPs not just those they recommend. If not, they face the prolonged challenge of regaining market confidence-which will cost substantially more in the long run.
This smells like a cover up to me. Cracks cannot be safe. Even if they were I’m not going to spend over $120k and years of labor to build an airplane that starts life with cracks.
Vans, it seems you arrived at a fork in the road and took the wrong turn down lawyer lane.
Cracks are all over your part 23 aircraft, and the standard “repair” is to drill the tip - often multiple times.
If the stresses are low enough, which most sheet metal on small aircraft is (it’s often driven by minimum gauge) - cracks will not grow to any critical length. They will be below the stress intensity threshold. They are speaking the truth.
I’m a fatigue and damage tolerance engineer (aka - crack engineer) who works on Part 25 aircraft (jets). I don’t have a Van’s kit, but there is no cover up here. They are being very forthcoming and their presentation is a great engineering summary.
As an aerospace engineer- this presentation gives me HUGE confidence in Van’s engineering. They are ticking the right boxes. I’m absolutely a buyer when they get out of bankruptcy and get the RV-15 design perfected.
Wanna buy a newer Vans Aircraft . It was built using LAsER CUT PARTS and Your asking price is "WHAT" and the power plant is a Lycoming O320 H2AD=Feet don't fail Me now.
Lifelong fan of fans aircraft. I hope they come out of this, but I seriously doubt they will . The manual I have says no cracks are acceptable. That is since been revised. Suddenly cracks are acceptable. This whole problem for Vance isn’t just about laser cut parts. Poor quality control on build kits overseas cost them a ton of money then during Covid, they tried to outrun their headlights and change the way they produce parts. It caught up with them. Bringing in new faces and increasing the price of kits and parts dramatically is not the fix. Where is Greg Hughes. Vans should have stopped taking orders and had people on a waitlist instead of outsourcing these laser cut parts. The bottom line is would you rather have a part that’s laser cut or a part that is punched? I know which one I would want this is also sad Building a vans aircraft is no longer a viable option for the largest majority of aviation enthusiast. What was one day an economical choice for a person with a little bit of talent and mechanical know how has become unreachable.
You can Finance kits, engines, avionics. And this is almost entirely because of Vans aircraft. They normalized experiential/homebuilt aircraft. And now the banks recognize them for what they are.
Modern E/AB aircraft are not Your granddaddy's airplane. If you want economical, you can still build a sonnex, peitenpol, or even a pitts.
Aircraft cost is directly related to weight, which is related to size. And capability, which is related to power, and avionics. If you reduce size and capability from that of an RV-8 or -10, down to a Sonex with a basic panel, the cost is the same or less than a new Harley Davidson, or a couple of Jetskis.
Fail Safe fatigue testing of cracked components should be left to the megabuck commercial and military aerospace industry with carefully regulated and documented inspection procedures. The average experimental/homebuilt owner/builder is not going to know which cracks are acceptable and in which locations. This push by Vans to "allow" cracks bucks the long history of normal workmanship standards, which is that cracks are not right and inherently bad and cause for concern and contemplation. The typical kit builder who is unable to complete a scratch built project because there are no detailed instruction manuals available does not have the ability to determine whether an existing crack is critical or not. This "good news" that testing has shown that not all cracks are created equal is not a suitable conclusion for use by the general population. Much confusion is going to occur if this is the path that is encouraged to accept. This is not a dig at Joe Builder, it is a dig at pushing complex acceptance criteria for cracks onto an untrained community at large. This is not following the KISS principle.
Vans: laser cut parts are perfectly safe!
Also Vans: we’re no longer producing parts by laser cutting.
This is just bullshit fluff. Y’all screwed up big time and are doing some major damage control (pun intended!)
And this is ignorance after experts explained everything thoroughly
Laser cut was never the issue. It was where the laser cuts started and stopped that was the issue. The usual process is to start the cut off the intended like... so for the cracking holes, you'd instead start inside the hole and spiral out to the final cut line. They cracked because the point where the laser started resulted in a slightly larger cut than the rest of the line, resulting in a stress concentration.
Actually, go look at 3:47 on the long-form video. They have the actual toolpaths shown.
Vans will con as many as possible to get their now inferior products oit the door!🤮
It does sound like a lot of lawyer speak. I know folks are passionate about Vans aircraft and its owner, but I agree the 180 pivot from one of the major problems that caused need to declare bankruptcy is no longer an issue?
No amount of fatigue testing in a lab will persuade me to induce hundreds of incipitent cracks on an airframe. Some of the commenters on here are clearly delusional and reflect the low calibre of the vans community.
And the comments from @tylerp6375 prove exactly the opposite (as just one example). See for yourself.
This is the end of Van's aircraft!
Vans miss the bigger issue! Whilst they are scrambling to con the buyer/builder to accept pre-cracked parts the fools forget that the LCP issue will be a stigma that will follow an effected airframe for life, making a sale a headache with a poorer value than a proper built version!🤮