Made it all the way to the end 🙌🏽. "I'd rather just believe and be duped. I'd rather believe in God and believe in angels and be duped than not believe. Because I've stared down the other direction and not only do I think it's less plausible, but it's just such a barren worldview...a Christian imagination allows you to look up at the stars at night and it couldn't be more enchanting. What you're looking at is beauty and wonder, and there is something behind it all." Love it 🙌🏽🔥
Very compelling. Yes, I got to the end. I think it couldn't be more clear in scripture that the spiritual directly effects the physical, and even the end state of creation is for the spiritual and physical to be manifested and united as one.
Do you understand that claims are not the same as proof of reality? A single book, the bible, makes many unsubstantiated claims, but there is nowhere in all human history any evidence for any of the biblical claims for supernatural events or entities. It is all Middle Eastern folklore.
As a veterinarian, and a pastor, I have thought about animal death/pain for years. It’s been hard to have an exact explanation, and I’ve dwelled on a mixture of developmentalism + fallenness (as you’ve called them) but I think this adds an immensely valuable element! Excited for more, Thank you Gavin!
God made it so....the dietary laws given by Moses to the Israelites, 3000 years ago! Herbivores that obtain their food by grazing or browsing on grasses and other plants. These are the animals which you may eat among all the beasts’ that are on the earth... whatever divides the hoof having cloven hooves and chewing the cud. These animals have four-chambered stomachs that convert grasses that are inedible to humans and other animals into nutritious, high-quality protein products (meat and milk) that people can then use for food. The dietary laws prohibit the consumption of all carnivorous animals and omnivorous animals for very logical reasons. God created clean animals to provide food and by-products for human use. He created animals unsuitable for human consumption for other purposes. Carnivores, as beasts of prey, play an important role in controlling the populations of other animals. As an example, wolves and mountain lions, which feed on herds of deer, control not only numbers but also help maintain the health of the herd by culling out older, sick or infirm animals. Biblically "clean fish" are generally free swimming in bodies of water. Most "unclean" fish are either bottom dwellers or predatory scavengers. Shellfish, lacking both fins and scales, are clearly excluded by the biblical dietary laws.. They are "bottom walkers" and "predatory scavengers" Crabs are referred to as "professional garbage hunters" and as "scavengers" that eat almost anything. These organisms were all created for a very important ecological purpose. They are, in essence, the "garbage collectors" or the "cleanup crew" for the bottoms of lakes, rivers, beaches, bays and oceans. They were not intended to be food for human beings. The biblical dietary laws are simple, rational, practical and profound. Long before human beings knew the details of disease-causing microorganisms, life cycles of parasites or global ecology, God revealed powerful principles that would provide safe, healthful food and prevent the spread of disease for anyone who would be willing to follow these instructions. Unclean animals that were physically unhealthy to eat in the days of Moses are just as unhealthy today.
@@jamesrey3221 Dude, the whole dietary laws were about how God determines what is clean and unclean. It was never about food but to remind Jews that there is such thing as "clean" and "unclean" and it's God who has the authority and not man.
Interesting thoughts. Been writing on a small book on this and divine hiddenness for last 10 months. We need to get vocal on these topics to minimize the amount who jump on shallow slogans and memes to them as a serious response.
Common misconception: "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943 This is retconning the category of “Jew”. To believe this is to deny that the Jews who wrote the Book of Jubilees, 1 Enoch, etc (ie the 2nd Temple Texts that Rabbinical Judaism later declared heretical) were not really “Jews” The idea of angelic rebellion - a Rabbinical Jewish friend of mine calls it ‘Enochian’ as in 1 Enoch (not to be confused with the occult term from 16th Century England) - is at least as old as the Essenes / Dead Sea Scrolls And hey, not my business to try and assert myself into the middle of an argument about who was really “Jewish”, but at minimum the idea that [this all was just some Greek/occult influence or syncretism] is quite simply false
“If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God?” This video reminded me of this Emerson quote. Thanks for your work, this one was very illuminating :)
Finished the video. Maybe it’s always made sense to me because I’ve been reading Tolkien for 25 years. The Silmarillion is great and I often wonder how much God let’s us stumble into a certain amount of accuracy regarding Creation through our imagination.
I made it all the way to the end :) I first started to feel the re-enchantment of the spiritual world when I read Heiser’s “The Unseen Realm”, and continued as I recently read “Out of the Silent Planet” and “Perelandra” for the first time (That Hideous Strength is next on my list!). I think Heiser’s views segue nicely with the theodicy presented here, but it’s a tough sell for many modern Christians. As a long-time old earth creationist myself, the problem of natural evil has always been my most difficult challenge, so thanks for the video and giving me some more categories to connect different parts of theology together.
I was thinking of Heiser and adjacent theologians while watching this, too. I have had a similar experience as you with "re-enchantment" and getting to relearn these old ideas. I think this video is very helpful in making ideas like Heiser's more palatable because something like theodicy and natural evil is something that is much more relevant to most people today, as opposed to (for example) whether or not the nephilim were actual giants.
Made it to the end - loved it!! I have three daughters who are six, eight, and nine, and the oldest two have independently come to me with something akin to this very question within the last few weeks. I had no answer! My eight year old has decided that she’s going to embrace young earth creationism and a general attitude of scriptural literalism, and I told her that’s perfectly fine and she may always feel that way; many people do! However, there are also a lot of people who eventually struggle with that, and if she ever does, not to internalize it as a proof against the truth of scripture, but to talk to me about it so we can wrestle with the alternative explanations, because there are plenty. And that’s how I found this video! Lol. I actually love angelic fall theology myself; I think it offers strong explanatory power for a lot of difficult topics. Part of my finding my strength in faith was realizing that if I had accepted the existence of a universal creator God, the historicity of the resurrection, and the reliability of the Bible, I had to concede to the possibility of physical laws being the norm but not necessarily the only feature of reality. I think that realizing that was instrumental in my capacity to embrace things like the historicity of miracles, the deity of Christ (believe it or not, I struggled with that early on), the “omni-ness” of God, the opportunity for personal relationship with Him, and, of course, fallen angel theology. I appreciate the way you explain the mechanism of this concept in natural history, and I would like to recommend a book for you, a quick read of fiction, called “The Gospel Grotesque,” by Photias Avant, which is a fictionalized telling of Jesus’s ministry, death and resurrection from Satan’s perspective, because it actually incorporates a number of aspects of what you’re talking about here. In fact, a lot of scenes from that book came up for me in my head while you were talking about this that hadn’t made sense to me during reading it, but make a lot more sense now. I think you’d enjoy it.
Hi Gavin - I did indeed make it through to the end. I deeply appreciate the winsome way you present how you're thinking about a given topic. I hadn't ever heard of an angelic fall theodicy and to be honest, I'd always assumed that it had to be a given that there could be no ecosystems as we know them before the fall of man for the same kinds of reasons as Ken Ham articulates. After listening to you engage with some of his claims and being recommended this video by the algorithm, I'm so intrigued by the idea of "puncturing the despair" and that "thinking about angels re-enchants the world." I would love to see our Christian intellectual tradition recapture grandeur as a defining feature. It would be great if skeptics could look at us and say, "Well, I hate their conclusions, but at least they're not boring."
How could I not make it to the end of this video, Gavin? It was soooo good. I especially appreciated your clarification that an angelic fall's impact on nature need not be direct in an active sense, but, like the pregnant mother who smokes or drinks, may be indirect. Another example would be the indirect impact of the spiritual life of a father on his family. So many passages of Scripture were slotting into place as I listened to this view. I'll have to read your article and go deeper. Regarding one of the views you reject, namely that which sees animal pain not as an evil per se, I wondered if there might be more to that. If Psalm 104 rejoices in a carnivorous order, is it unreasonable to think that animal pain and death may be either a positive good in itself, or, as with the free-will defence, a concomitant of other goods? Here I'm thinking of the FWD idea via William Lane Craig that while it may be logically possible for God to create only souls who do not reject him, it may not be feasible.
Hi Dr. Ortlund, thank you very much for making this video. With every video you make, I feel like I have another puzzle piece to help build my unified worldview as a Christian. I've recently been so discouraged and angered by seeing self-identifying Christians online and around me characterized by so much hate, ignorance, and general distain for seeking truth outside their bubles of familiarity. I can't even talk about Christian theology with fellow Christians because many of them are so stubbornly and bitterly set in their views regardless of what scripture, the historic Church, or the natural world teaches us. Seeing your work and your own character represent a body of Christians who can be lovers of knowledge, reason, history, and above all; peace and charity, has been incredibly helpful to me. Please continue producing these videos, and God bless.
Made it through! That’s saying something coming from a guy with two boys, aged 6 and 3. I’ve been cautiously walking down this path for a couple years now. Michael Heiser really opened up a new world for me and I feel this just adds layers to those thoughts. Loved the work you’ve done bridging the early church fathers with Tolkien and Lewis. Great stuff Gavin. Thank you.
Made it all the way to the end. This makes Out of the Silent Planet make so much more sense to me! I love the idea that we're re-enchanting the modern world! 🥰😭
Made it to the end. Still sifting through some of the ideology but i can definitely see a lot of truth in it. I also love Tolkien, so the inclusion of the Silmarillion was pretty cool!
Thank you for this video Dr. Ortlund. Listened to it for the second time now. My first time was quite a while ago. I see what you see when looking up at the stars at night and when reading the Silmarillion by the way. I believe the fallen angel theory is pivotal to understanding the problem of evil, that it has support in Scripture and out the nature of angels, concordance with issues presented from modern science (for those concerned about that), and brings deeper fulfillment of themes elsewhere in Scripture. For example, the theme of God’s mercy shows through the tiers of pain that higher animals experience compared to humans, their pain being less severe for lack of self consciousness. Again, God’s providence is demonstrated through the way predation can actually support the health and survival of an ecosystem. Another powerful theme from Scripture that a world with death and pain pre-fall can show is how God chooses and elevates the humble over the proud and violent. If pre-fall angelic corruption and other things like old earth and evolution are true, then God, despite predation and suffering, has created a beautiful diversity of life, chosen humans from among the many low earthly creatures to image Him, and ultimately elevated them above the angels (esp the proud fallen ones). Most of this may be true anyways without things like large scale evolution and predation caused by demons, but the strength of the themes as seen in Scripture are even more powerful with this backdrop. I just keep thinking of Joseph toward the end of Genesis telling his brothers that what they meant for evil God meant for good. This is exactly how Illuvatar responds to Melkor in the Silmarillion as well!
Finally got around to watching this. Fascinating. Seems at least as good an explanation as any and perhaps the best of them. It strikes me that it is still vulnerable to the objection you made with respect to others - why create a universe where there could be fallen angels who are permitted to inflict sufferings - God could have created without such fallen angel caused suffering and it would still produce a "complete and good" creation since clearly this is what he will do in the new heaven and new earth : we will be free from such afflictions by them (they will be locked away in hell).
Keep posting these videos. I'm Christian (Dutch) Reformed, so I also have a deep appreciation for what the Christian tradition has to say on these topics.
Just finished watching your amazing video. This way of looking at our world is way better than what atheism can ever offer. I wholeheartedly agree with you Gavin ❤ It would be helpful to see if you watched any other videos or debates on this and could provide links. Cheers ❤
Dr. Ortlund outstanding! Because of our “advanced” technology, we often consider the pre-modern man to be ignorant in all things and that is where we are sadly mistaken. We need to rely and trust in the wisdom and inspiration of the great thinkers and fathers of the church. In many ways they saw the nature of the creation much clearer than modern man.
Made it to the end. I’m a Charismatic, and I’ve heard a shade of fallen angel theodicy in sermons. I’m glad to hear that historically, theologians had also held to this view. It doesn’t sound as “crazy” as others make it look. Thank you Gavin for your work!
Watch the whole thing! I recently read Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser, and he spoke on similar ideas. It was really interesting and gave interesting perspective on the effect of the angels' fall. He explained it a bit differently but they both share a similar premise. He didn't really use early church historians as reference so it's cool to see what the early Christians may have believed. Granted his focus wasn't on the corrupting of nature but this is such a facinating topic that I always have a hard time articulating. These are definitely things that have come up in my mind in passing so thanks for another cool video and giving all the references!
This is really interesting cause I think I was introduced to this entire concept by the late Michael Heiser's work and book Unseen Realm, but as a huge Tolkien nut, as it was taking form in my mind, I recall one day thinking - "That's weird, this is literally how Tolkien described things in The Silmarillion...." And so yeah, I feel like I was maybe more receptive to the concept of a "divine counsel" from my former reading of Tolkien and Lewis. Fascinating.
(Edit: made it to the end!) Gavin, I think you would have loved engaging with Michael Heiser. Both of you as scholars have combined creative, imaginative thought with deep theology and historical/textual data. After I read The Unseen Realm and his other books, the Bible became even more a source of delight and appreciation for me. I also, at age 73, have been reading Tolkien and Lewis for over 60 years. I think I should add your colleague’s book on Tolkien theology to my collection.
Hi, Gavin. First of all, thank you for yet another amazing video. I've been watching your videos on this whole topic of the origins for some days now, and I'm amazed not only with the clarity and depth of your argumentation, but mainly with the carefulness with which you deal with this sensitive topic and the grace with which you treat the ones that possibly disagree with you on that. It's been very humbling to watch the way you "speak the truth in love". Also, I couldn't help but notice how you held back your tears at the end when talking about the re-enchantment of the world. I am greatly thankful to God for putting in my way examples of how one can be intelectually rigourous and deep and, at the same time, passionate for the wonderful works of God. It's been a gush of fresh air to meet reasonable, faithful and wise brothers in such times as the one we're living on. I would very much like to meet you one day and give you hug, if I'm allowed to, for the encouragement I've been receiving, as an academic christian, from your videos. Thank you very much, and God bless your work and your ministry.
It makes total sense. As a pastor, studying to be an apologist, and an ardent Lewis and Tolkien admirer, I feel that this concept makes the most sense. Great content!
I believe you are exactly right. I was not taught this way I was not led to believe this in any way at all I have just always felt that everything you said is the truth. God bless you 🙏
Thank you. I watched the whole video. Only my second video of you I’ve seen. Subbed. 😊 TBH, I’m not a Christian, but I very much want to be. I really want the Bible to be true, but I can’t simply make myself believe. I’ve tried. I’ve visited many churches and had long conversations with many pastors over the last few years. So, I consider myself an agnostic now, but can’t fully believe in atheism or strict naturalism either. I’m kind of in a limbo state now following a Buddhist path. Yet, I find the lack of a meaningful theology in Buddhism unsatisfying. I’m a conservative and reject many of the secular degeneracies I see around me in the modern world. I believe in objective morality. Yet, despite all of my seeking, I have yet to find God. I keep looking for God, but this issue of natural evil is one of the two biggest hurdles against believing in God as presented in the Bible. (The other big hurdle for me is the topic of divine hiddenness, btw.) I need to marinate in your ideas more, but I very much appreciate the food for thought! As a normal person (and not a philosopher per se), I don’t know all of the history or people or works you mentioned. I was happy to learn about some new viewpoints that seem to align with my own intuitions, such as that this earthly life is a kind of training camp for the afterlife. I think suffering is absolutely necessary for the development of our souls and our morality. I even had an instant epiphany (which I quickly rejected - but still could make for an interesting fiction book) when you noted that demons are incarcerated in the earth. I wondered… what if we are actually all demons ourselves and our lives are attempts to learn from suffering and redeem ourselves so we can one day re-enter God’s heavenly kingdom?!? But then I quickly realized that the Bible clearly delineates a difference between humans and demons (or angels). While it was an interesting thought, I don’t think there is any solid theological basis to believe that our souls are actually fallen angels. As I said though, maybe it could make for a good fiction book!
Something that helped me in my belief in Christianity was looking into the ressurection, the historical facts behind the empty tomb and accounts, the transformation in the view of James the skeptic brother of Jesus, the willingness of all the disciples to die without renouncing belief in Jesus's ressurection and the fact that based upon the Jewish beliefs at the time to come up with or hallucinate the ressurection wouldn't happen as individual ressurection was never thought of and ascension like Elijahs would be a more natural idea.
Was talking about the Fall with my small group and I brought up the point of evil before it affected humanity and was referred to this video. Very great ideas, I still don’t think it explains why God would create angels knowing that they would cause the fall of man but God is sovereign and I’m okay if we can’t know why. First video of yours that I’ve watched and I can’t wait to get into more. Thank you!
Thanks for your work. I love listening to your videos! I'm a retired missionary. I ministered for 14 years in 2 countries where most Christians are Orthodox (Egypt and Russia). I've been curious how many of the Catholic and Orthodoxy believes came about, which your videos give great insight into.
Just came across this. I made it to the end! I’ve actually been thinking about this idea myself independent of ever hearing about it before! Thanks so much for the video.
I love these conversations and I feel like some of the considerations that seem the most bizarre on their immediate face, upon further thought, end up being the most logical and almost undeniable to be true. There is no denying that the spiritual realm is so much more intimately entwined with our material realm than we realize. I have been journeying through Michael Heiser's work in recent years and seeing all of creation with fresh eyes. I'm grateful to have come across your channel and it has been so edifying and enriching. Thank you Gavin!
Just finished the video. I enjoyed your presentation and the theodicy is very interesting. Do you have any videos or papers that further discuss this Idea of disenchantment/enchantment? It's something that was recently discussed in one of my church history classes and I'd like to hear your perspective. Thank you for the great video!
I made it to the end. I didn't know this was a fringe idea! I grew up imagining that 'the fall' that affected humsna was proceeded by the one in heaven where the accuser and his followers entered into rebellion to try and make themselves 'like god'. I imagined this as the moment in which the sustaining presence of YHWH was cut off or at least restricted to some aspects of his creation who were essentially choosing to unplug from him. It was within this fall that I saw imperfect corruptions being introduced to the universes code with cascading effects that eventually reached the earthly realm = especially after humans too asserted their unGodly independence thinking that they could 'be like God' too. God was like "well, if you think you don't need me and my sustaining gift of life, then so be it' - at which point life had to sustain itself by the consumption of life. Perhaps when this happened (if it did like I described) God felt the need to make a few small tweaks to the design of the natural world so that it could sustain itself upon itself rather than with assistance by his sustaining life force. Also, perhaps, this scenario along with the cascading effects of entropy over quite some time has resulted in this system becoming unbalanced. It's yet another proof by lived experience that God is showing us that we need him for balance, order, and goodness to be maintained.
Made it to the end. This idea helped me yrs ago to let go of my YE Creationism. So glad to hear that it has a heritage. I must say, you have inspired me to imagine further. I still have some questions and hangups, but this explanation seems at least as plausible as any other to my mind.
I will also say, I am very intrigued with the notion that angels (and demons) are behind the material world we experience and were assigned roles in sustaining, governing, and possibly manipulating, different facets of the physical world. Truly fascinating! However, I am still uncomfortable with the idea, on biblical grounds, that angels contributed somehow to creation itself.
I finished this! Thank you for opening my aperture a bit. The more I get into Lewis, the more I realize how saturated he was in ancient Christianity. I do have one question for clarification… if fallen angels were subverting the world during the very process of creation, how can it be said that it was good before the fall?
I made it to the end!! This is one of your most exciting videos yet. Gavin, thanks for sharing your devotion to God by edifying us! Usually I feel too intimidated by your vast knowledge of church history to bother trying to dialogue, but this was super relatable. To look up at the stars and at the beauty of nature is something that God gifted us to make His existence apparent on earth. Acknowledging and engaging these kinds of mysteries really does bring enchantment into one's soul - it's the best way to feel like a kid full of wonder all over again! And didn't Jesus say to be like the little children is what we ought to aim for in some way? To love fellowship with each other in the way of discussing God's amazing and mysterious creations and providence will never get us to the final answer but it's endless fun (definitely the opposite of a barren perspective) and these puzzles are one of the many things to look forward to - I personally can't wait to know all the answers to these paradoxical riddles once we are with God! ❤😊 Thank you again for this video!
Great! I made it to the end, but it wasn't hard to do. I'm right there with you. I couldn't have told you about the precedent in church history but probably was primed for it by Lewis. I'm glad you weren't too hard on Milton, though - I loved Paradise Lost, though it's probably not the best source for technical theology. Though I note you're not afraid to use illustrations of his poem as your artwork.
I watched to the end. Personally when I read (ok I listened to the audiobook) Tolkiens acount for the first time I found this idea really compelling and still do. Thanks Dr. Ortlund
Dr. OrtLund. Thank you. I got through the video. I join the many brothers and sisters to say this makes a lot of sense. Definitely opens up many good and needed questions. Shalom
I listened to the end. I agree that this helps solve the theodicy problem, but how can we harmonize it with Genesis 1:31? If Satan's angels have been corrupting creation since the beginning, how can God look at it when it is finally complete and see that it is very good?
Finished the whole thing. Love all your thoughts on this. And I went to church years ago with your friend, Austin Freeman.❤ Looking forward to reading his book now.
Hello Dr. Ortlund. I loved this presentation. Tolkien does give us the tools to "re-enchant" our overly modernized world view; tools that GK Chesterton believed to be critical. Are you familiar with Dr. Ralph C. Wood's "the Gospel According to Tolkien"? (Baylor Univesity). Please take this as a compliment from someone graced by his mentorship, I think he might call you a fellow Bapto-Catholic in how you see many issues. 🙂
I thought about this more and I do think it is interesting, but I am still trying to understand how passing 'the blame' onto angels reduces the culpability that some would claim God has in suffering. For an all knowing, all powerful entity, suffering still exists. I prefer to think that it is only in a humanity that submits to God and finds His perfect will, that such suffering will begin to diminish. As humans, we are quickly spoiled and corrupted by an 'easy life'. I don't know that ending scarcity or suffering should be done until humanity 'earns it' by finding and following God's perfect will.
I listened till the end. This was really thought provoking. Dr. Michael Heiser helped re awaken my love for scripture and it started with talking about the divine council. I had reached a point where the unknown in certain passages left me very perplexed and then i listened to his book the Unseen Realm and realized how much I actually had to learn and how much I was missing in what Christ was doing. How arrogant was I to think i had figured this thing called the bible out? Anytime I look at the sky I am filled with a sense of awe that the God who made me is there and that he is wanting me.
Thank you for this video, Gavin! I think this is a superb representation of the traditional Christian imagination on the subject. We all of us have been deracinated of our Christian ethos with the scientific revolution and enlightenment. What I loved about this video is that it seems to have pointed a way forward, so that both the truth of science and the truth of the supernatural can dovetail into one whole reality. P. S. Made it to the end.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943 while Jesus was announcing the kingdom of God in Galilee and Judea, he primarily focused on a Jewish audience, all the while including gentiles whom the Father had prepared to receive healing and salvation. After his resurrection, Christ threw open the kingdom of God for the whole world (see Matthew 28). There is no misconception as to the term ha satan (the accuser). While the term does not connote a proper noun in the sense of a name, there is no doubt that Jesus used the idea of Satan or the devil to refer to the ruler of this age who has been a liar from the beginning (John 8:44). With regard to your notion of a war I Heaven being a pagan importation, I find this highly dubious and unconvincing. In the Apocalypse of John there is a war in heaven. In Genesis 6 there is a rebellion of angelic beings. And before all of that, there was a primordial enemy in serpent form in the Garden of God, temping humans away from fealty to the LORD.
I’m a Catholic that enjoys watching your video despite disagreeing with you on a lot of stuff! But I must say that this is pretty much exactly what my view is and I don’t think it’s a strange theological opinion at all! Thanks for the video!
Saw it all, excellent, one of your best videos! I'm a confessional Lutheran leaning towards young Earth creationism, but, yes, demons as presiding over defects in creation and angels (principalities, powers, thrones) as presiding over stars makes a Biblical sense.
Thanks so much for addressing this important topic that has been bothering me. You asked all the same questions I do and attempted to address concerns about animal suffering
Made it to the end! I’m in seminary now at a reformed seminary. Your videos are of such a high quality they frequently supplement my lessons in substantial ways. Incredible feat to make this accessible to us free of charge. Your ministry is beyond useful. Would be interested in discussing more. 58:26
Listened all the way to the end! (Which was not difficult as this was awesome!). This was really good. I'll have to read the articles you wrote. Two books I've read that are in the same sphere: Michael Heiser's Unseen Realm and John Peckham's Theodicy of Love. Thanks for your great content!
This is an incredible concept! Plato even gets at this. In Timaeus there's a passage where he talks about God creating the gods and tasking them with the formation of the world and the governance of humanity. You could argue he sees the Greek pantheon as angels (maybe demons is more accurate in keeping with patristic thought). Thanks for sharing this! I'll be chewing on it for a while.
Easily watched the entire video. Much appreciated. We inhabit four dimensions but those four dimensions are imbedded in higher dimensions who are inhabited by higher created beings and above all dimensions, God.
I made it all the way through to the end! This is a very interesting topic, as you explained and unpacked things I had a lot of teachings of the late Dr. Michael Heiser in my head I believe that a lot of what he's taught pairs well with this idea.
Thanks for this. I am by coincidence reading the Silmarillion right now and this just added a whole other level. I do see the problem of natural evil now more clearly. Loved hearing that old earth was actually the more conservative view until only in the last century.
Man this is *such* a good video. Thank you for all of the work you've put in doing the research and writing it up in an accessible way. It's very impressive and I'm grateful that we live in this crazy TH-cam world where I can benefit from it so easily. Thank you!
Made it through brother. Like a lot of the other comments I too find Heiser's perspective a very compelling one and this idea is very happy in that world view. This vid. was a timely one for me, really helped me get past some things I've been wrestling with so thanks for that!
Made it to the end, of course! Great video! I appreciate so much about this, shall I list? I shall. 1. Clear explanation of how this question of the origin of natural evil arises naturally when meditating on Genesis and creation in general, and treating seriously our intuition that nature is indeed pretty bloody and brutal. 2. Clear discussion of the options on the table, and helpful situation of the different ideas in history. Your analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the different positions seems spot on to me! I was both affirmed in some ways and challenged in others. Just great! 3. Fascinating explication and defense of the idea angels (and demons) are so much more more integrated in our universe than our modern imagination is able to conceive. Ensouled stars considered seriously by church fathers? Mind-blowing. But you approach this in such a clear, concise, reasonable way that I find myself considering it whereas I would have blown off the idea before. Well-done!
Finished it! I’ve thought about this many times over. I have believed in the barrenness of atheism and the hopelessness it churns over and over. I appreciate that last little bit of your honest and vulnerable position- that even if you’ve been duped, it’s better than the alternative. That resonated with me the most. I long for that eternal and true embrace from God and yet work in the chaotic, painful and evil world that bucks up against that hope. I live in the in-between tension of hope and hopelessness. It’s awful- when it’s the later. Anyway- thank you for all the work you do and share with the world. I love the depth and detail to address most every objection one could or has come up with.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
I watched all the way to the end. This is a thought-provoking idea that's going to be bouncing around in my head for a while, so thank you for putting it out there. Also, regarding the idea that God made the world in an imperfect way in preparation for the Fall, this is consistent with St. Paul's comment in Romans about God subjecting the creation to futility (assuming you take that passage to refer to all of physical creation and not just humanity).
I just finished The Silmarillion a few months ago and am still trying to figure out how all this stuff fits together (Hugh Ross’s Old Earth Creationism seems to fall under developmentalism to me but I still don’t know how to make sense of how the fall of some angels could cause something like the second law of thermodynamics). 🤷🏽♂️ Thank you for the video and the taxonomy. That helps provide a grid for some of my thinking on this.
YES! _I want to hear more!_ I had never heard of this approach before, but it sounds quite plausible. Let us know when you will expand on it, okay? Thanks!
Thank you, Gavin. This is one of the best discussions about this issue (long troubling to me) I’ve encountered. I, too, believe the world is enchanted, shot through with Grace. We often fail to See what’s Real. Thank you for this. I’m so impressed with your work. As a very nearly Catholic (raised Presbyterian), and trained in philosophy and a 40 year student of theology, I appreciate you.
Made it to the end. I’ve recently wrestled with this problem. As I considered the interaction of the creation in Genesis with evolutionary discoveries and felt intuitively that this was a possibility. Glad to see there is orthodox historical and intellectual precedent for it.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
What an amazing video. Just finished it, and I couldn't be more impressed. What a beautiful theology, and a beautiful ending. Thank you so much for everything you do.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943, stop quoting Jesus in a misleading way! You will be called to account in the way you represent him. When Jesus instructed his disciples not to preach to the Gentiles, that was in a specific context. Matthew 10 is called the limited commission. After Jesus death and resurrection, he sent his disciples out into all nations, to the gentiles as well as the Jews. “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” - Matthew 28.
@@aldencole6714 "In a misleading way " a bit ironic. Also representing him? I'm just showing the quote that says preach to gentiles or samaritans. So for your argument you believe he changed his mind after the crucifixion ?
@@happymate8943 Jesus' mission was to the Jew first, then to the Greek, as Paul says speaking in the Spirit in Romans 1:16 and as is obvious throughout the entire NT and OT. Read through the Bible and you will see it! Look at Jesus' talking about his role as Shepherd in Jn 10:16, or the Revelation given to Peter in Acts 11. Once the gospel of Jesus' Lordship was spread to the Jews, it was then spread to the gentiles.
@@aldencole6714 You realize paul never met or followed jesus during his time alive? Also saying a "spirit" of him going to paul, who never met jesus and persecuted his followers, in order tell to convert gentiles sounds unbelievable. Also peter argued with paul over somthing like that as well.
Made it all the way to the end 🙌🏽.
"I'd rather just believe and be duped. I'd rather believe in God and believe in angels and be duped than not believe. Because I've stared down the other direction and not only do I think it's less plausible, but it's just such a barren worldview...a Christian imagination allows you to look up at the stars at night and it couldn't be more enchanting. What you're looking at is beauty and wonder, and there is something behind it all." Love it 🙌🏽🔥
Gavin: My weirdest theological view
Me: Looks like I have a new theological view
Made it to the end. Wonderful, and enchanting video! Love you Gavin!
Very compelling. Yes, I got to the end. I think it couldn't be more clear in scripture that the spiritual directly effects the physical, and even the end state of creation is for the spiritual and physical to be manifested and united as one.
I love finding your comments throughout Christian TH-cam lol. Last I saw you was in the Ten Minute Bible Hour comment section.
Do you understand that claims are not the same as proof of reality? A single book, the bible, makes many unsubstantiated claims, but there is nowhere in all human history any evidence for any of the biblical claims for supernatural events or entities. It is all Middle Eastern folklore.
As a veterinarian, and a pastor, I have thought about animal death/pain for years. It’s been hard to have an exact explanation, and I’ve dwelled on a mixture of developmentalism + fallenness (as you’ve called them) but I think this adds an immensely valuable element!
Excited for more, Thank you Gavin!
God made it so....the dietary laws given by Moses to the Israelites, 3000 years ago!
Herbivores that obtain their food by grazing or browsing on grasses and other plants. These are the animals which you may eat among all the beasts’ that are on the earth... whatever divides the hoof having cloven hooves and chewing the cud.
These animals have four-chambered stomachs that convert grasses that are inedible to humans and other animals into nutritious, high-quality protein products (meat and milk) that people can then use for food.
The dietary laws prohibit the consumption of all carnivorous animals and omnivorous animals for very logical reasons.
God created clean animals to provide food and by-products for human use. He created animals unsuitable for human consumption for other purposes. Carnivores, as beasts of prey, play an important role in controlling the populations of other animals. As an example, wolves and mountain lions, which feed on herds of deer, control not only numbers but also help maintain the health of the herd by culling out older, sick or infirm animals.
Biblically "clean fish" are generally free swimming in bodies of water. Most "unclean" fish are either bottom dwellers or predatory scavengers. Shellfish, lacking both fins and scales, are clearly excluded by the biblical dietary laws.. They are "bottom walkers" and "predatory scavengers" Crabs are referred to as "professional garbage hunters" and as "scavengers" that eat almost anything.
These organisms were all created for a very important ecological purpose. They are, in essence, the "garbage collectors" or the "cleanup crew" for the bottoms of lakes, rivers, beaches, bays and oceans. They were not intended to be food for human beings.
The biblical dietary laws are simple, rational, practical and profound. Long before human beings knew the details of disease-causing microorganisms, life cycles of parasites or global ecology, God revealed powerful principles that would provide safe, healthful food and prevent the spread of disease for anyone who would be willing to follow these instructions.
Unclean animals that were physically unhealthy to eat in the days of Moses are just as unhealthy today.
@@jamesrey3221 Dude, the whole dietary laws were about how God determines what is clean and unclean. It was never about food but to remind Jews that there is such thing as "clean" and "unclean" and it's God who has the authority and not man.
@@jamesrey3221 That in no way answers the qustion.
Interesting thoughts. Been writing on a small book on this and divine hiddenness for last 10 months. We need to get vocal on these topics to minimize the amount who jump on shallow slogans and memes to them as a serious response.
Thanks Gavin. You're content is like a breath of fresh air.
Common misconception: "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943 This is retconning the category of “Jew”. To believe this is to deny that the Jews who wrote the Book of Jubilees, 1 Enoch, etc (ie the 2nd Temple Texts that Rabbinical Judaism later declared heretical) were not really “Jews”
The idea of angelic rebellion - a Rabbinical Jewish friend of mine calls it ‘Enochian’ as in 1 Enoch (not to be confused with the occult term from 16th Century England) - is at least as old as the Essenes / Dead Sea Scrolls
And hey, not my business to try and assert myself into the middle of an argument about who was really “Jewish”, but at minimum the idea that [this all was just some Greek/occult influence or syncretism] is quite simply false
“If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God?” This video reminded me of this Emerson quote. Thanks for your work, this one was very illuminating :)
Finished the video. Maybe it’s always made sense to me because I’ve been reading Tolkien for 25 years. The Silmarillion is great and I often wonder how much God let’s us stumble into a certain amount of accuracy regarding Creation through our imagination.
I made it all the way to the end :) I first started to feel the re-enchantment of the spiritual world when I read Heiser’s “The Unseen Realm”, and continued as I recently read “Out of the Silent Planet” and “Perelandra” for the first time (That Hideous Strength is next on my list!). I think Heiser’s views segue nicely with the theodicy presented here, but it’s a tough sell for many modern Christians. As a long-time old earth creationist myself, the problem of natural evil has always been my most difficult challenge, so thanks for the video and giving me some more categories to connect different parts of theology together.
I was thinking of Heiser and adjacent theologians while watching this, too. I have had a similar experience as you with "re-enchantment" and getting to relearn these old ideas. I think this video is very helpful in making ideas like Heiser's more palatable because something like theodicy and natural evil is something that is much more relevant to most people today, as opposed to (for example) whether or not the nephilim were actual giants.
I can truly say Heiser's work has helped me in so many ways understand alot of the strange concepts in scripture and I am so here for it.
Made it to the end - loved it!! I have three daughters who are six, eight, and nine, and the oldest two have independently come to me with something akin to this very question within the last few weeks. I had no answer! My eight year old has decided that she’s going to embrace young earth creationism and a general attitude of scriptural literalism, and I told her that’s perfectly fine and she may always feel that way; many people do! However, there are also a lot of people who eventually struggle with that, and if she ever does, not to internalize it as a proof against the truth of scripture, but to talk to me about it so we can wrestle with the alternative explanations, because there are plenty. And that’s how I found this video! Lol. I actually love angelic fall theology myself; I think it offers strong explanatory power for a lot of difficult topics. Part of my finding my strength in faith was realizing that if I had accepted the existence of a universal creator God, the historicity of the resurrection, and the reliability of the Bible, I had to concede to the possibility of physical laws being the norm but not necessarily the only feature of reality. I think that realizing that was instrumental in my capacity to embrace things like the historicity of miracles, the deity of Christ (believe it or not, I struggled with that early on), the “omni-ness” of God, the opportunity for personal relationship with Him, and, of course, fallen angel theology. I appreciate the way you explain the mechanism of this concept in natural history, and I would like to recommend a book for you, a quick read of fiction, called “The Gospel Grotesque,” by Photias Avant, which is a fictionalized telling of Jesus’s ministry, death and resurrection from Satan’s perspective, because it actually incorporates a number of aspects of what you’re talking about here. In fact, a lot of scenes from that book came up for me in my head while you were talking about this that hadn’t made sense to me during reading it, but make a lot more sense now. I think you’d enjoy it.
Hi Gavin - I did indeed make it through to the end. I deeply appreciate the winsome way you present how you're thinking about a given topic. I hadn't ever heard of an angelic fall theodicy and to be honest, I'd always assumed that it had to be a given that there could be no ecosystems as we know them before the fall of man for the same kinds of reasons as Ken Ham articulates. After listening to you engage with some of his claims and being recommended this video by the algorithm, I'm so intrigued by the idea of "puncturing the despair" and that "thinking about angels re-enchants the world." I would love to see our Christian intellectual tradition recapture grandeur as a defining feature. It would be great if skeptics could look at us and say, "Well, I hate their conclusions, but at least they're not boring."
How could I not make it to the end of this video, Gavin? It was soooo good. I especially appreciated your clarification that an angelic fall's impact on nature need not be direct in an active sense, but, like the pregnant mother who smokes or drinks, may be indirect. Another example would be the indirect impact of the spiritual life of a father on his family. So many passages of Scripture were slotting into place as I listened to this view. I'll have to read your article and go deeper. Regarding one of the views you reject, namely that which sees animal pain not as an evil per se, I wondered if there might be more to that. If Psalm 104 rejoices in a carnivorous order, is it unreasonable to think that animal pain and death may be either a positive good in itself, or, as with the free-will defence, a concomitant of other goods? Here I'm thinking of the FWD idea via William Lane Craig that while it may be logically possible for God to create only souls who do not reject him, it may not be feasible.
Hi Dr. Ortlund, thank you very much for making this video. With every video you make, I feel like I have another puzzle piece to help build my unified worldview as a Christian.
I've recently been so discouraged and angered by seeing self-identifying Christians online and around me characterized by so much hate, ignorance, and general distain for seeking truth outside their bubles of familiarity. I can't even talk about Christian theology with fellow Christians because many of them are so stubbornly and bitterly set in their views regardless of what scripture, the historic Church, or the natural world teaches us.
Seeing your work and your own character represent a body of Christians who can be lovers of knowledge, reason, history, and above all; peace and charity, has been incredibly helpful to me. Please continue producing these videos, and God bless.
You *have* to leave fundamentalist circles if you want to grow. They're ossified. Join an Apostolic Church or one of the non-progressive Mainlines.
Excellent video. Thank you. It definitely belongs in the matrix of natural evil theodicies.
Made it through! That’s saying something coming from a guy with two boys, aged 6 and 3.
I’ve been cautiously walking down this path for a couple years now.
Michael Heiser really opened up a new world for me and I feel this just adds layers to those thoughts. Loved the work you’ve done bridging the early church fathers with Tolkien and Lewis. Great stuff Gavin. Thank you.
Made it all the way to the end. This makes Out of the Silent Planet make so much more sense to me! I love the idea that we're re-enchanting the modern world! 🥰😭
I finished, and I’m feeling re-enchanted!
Made it to the end. Still sifting through some of the ideology but i can definitely see a lot of truth in it. I also love Tolkien, so the inclusion of the Silmarillion was pretty cool!
Thank you for this video Dr. Ortlund. Listened to it for the second time now. My first time was quite a while ago. I see what you see when looking up at the stars at night and when reading the Silmarillion by the way. I believe the fallen angel theory is pivotal to understanding the problem of evil, that it has support in Scripture and out the nature of angels, concordance with issues presented from modern science (for those concerned about that), and brings deeper fulfillment of themes elsewhere in Scripture. For example, the theme of God’s mercy shows through the tiers of pain that higher animals experience compared to humans, their pain being less severe for lack of self consciousness. Again, God’s providence is demonstrated through the way predation can actually support the health and survival of an ecosystem. Another powerful theme from Scripture that a world with death and pain pre-fall can show is how God chooses and elevates the humble over the proud and violent. If pre-fall angelic corruption and other things like old earth and evolution are true, then God, despite predation and suffering, has created a beautiful diversity of life, chosen humans from among the many low earthly creatures to image Him, and ultimately elevated them above the angels (esp the proud fallen ones). Most of this may be true anyways without things like large scale evolution and predation caused by demons, but the strength of the themes as seen in Scripture are even more powerful with this backdrop. I just keep thinking of Joseph toward the end of Genesis telling his brothers that what they meant for evil God meant for good. This is exactly how Illuvatar responds to Melkor in the Silmarillion as well!
Finally got around to watching this. Fascinating. Seems at least as good an explanation as any and perhaps the best of them. It strikes me that it is still vulnerable to the objection you made with respect to others - why create a universe where there could be fallen angels who are permitted to inflict sufferings - God could have created without such fallen angel caused suffering and it would still produce a "complete and good" creation since clearly this is what he will do in the new heaven and new earth : we will be free from such afflictions by them (they will be locked away in hell).
Made it all the way to the end. Great video!
Question: when did God look at creation and call it good in relation to all of this? Thanks!
Keep posting these videos. I'm Christian (Dutch) Reformed, so I also have a deep appreciation for what the Christian tradition has to say on these topics.
Watched to the end! It makes a lot of sense and helps with some confusion I had growing up a young earth creationist.
I agree with your dad - you are the real deal Gavin. Thankful for all that you do to help the truth unite us. God bless you.
Just finished watching your amazing video. This way of looking at our world is way better than what atheism can ever offer. I wholeheartedly agree with you Gavin ❤ It would be helpful to see if you watched any other videos or debates on this and could provide links. Cheers ❤
Fascinating, Gavin, as a Bible and a Tolkien fan to boot!
On the same page of believing the wonder as the half has never yet been told! You made an impact with this treatise 😊
Dr. Ortlund outstanding! Because of our “advanced” technology, we often consider the pre-modern man to be ignorant in all things and that is where we are sadly mistaken. We need to rely and trust in the wisdom and inspiration of the great thinkers and fathers of the church. In many ways they saw the nature of the creation much clearer than modern man.
That Hideous Strength my favourite too.
But Out of the Silent Planet, that's my favourite favourite. Now I need to keep listening
Made it to the end. I’m a Charismatic, and I’ve heard a shade of fallen angel theodicy in sermons. I’m glad to hear that historically, theologians had also held to this view. It doesn’t sound as “crazy” as others make it look. Thank you Gavin for your work!
Watch the whole thing! I recently read Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser, and he spoke on similar ideas. It was really interesting and gave interesting perspective on the effect of the angels' fall. He explained it a bit differently but they both share a similar premise. He didn't really use early church historians as reference so it's cool to see what the early Christians may have believed. Granted his focus wasn't on the corrupting of nature but this is such a facinating topic that I always have a hard time articulating. These are definitely things that have come up in my mind in passing so thanks for another cool video and giving all the references!
Heiser has always said he was not coming up with anything new
This is really interesting cause I think I was introduced to this entire concept by the late Michael Heiser's work and book Unseen Realm, but as a huge Tolkien nut, as it was taking form in my mind, I recall one day thinking - "That's weird, this is literally how Tolkien described things in The Silmarillion...." And so yeah, I feel like I was maybe more receptive to the concept of a "divine counsel" from my former reading of Tolkien and Lewis. Fascinating.
(Edit: made it to the end!)
Gavin, I think you would have loved engaging with Michael Heiser. Both of you as scholars have combined creative, imaginative thought with deep theology and historical/textual data. After I read The Unseen Realm and his other books, the Bible became even more a source of delight and appreciation for me. I also, at age 73, have been reading Tolkien and Lewis for over 60 years. I think I should add your colleague’s book on Tolkien theology to my collection.
Hi, Gavin. First of all, thank you for yet another amazing video. I've been watching your videos on this whole topic of the origins for some days now, and I'm amazed not only with the clarity and depth of your argumentation, but mainly with the carefulness with which you deal with this sensitive topic and the grace with which you treat the ones that possibly disagree with you on that. It's been very humbling to watch the way you "speak the truth in love".
Also, I couldn't help but notice how you held back your tears at the end when talking about the re-enchantment of the world. I am greatly thankful to God for putting in my way examples of how one can be intelectually rigourous and deep and, at the same time, passionate for the wonderful works of God. It's been a gush of fresh air to meet reasonable, faithful and wise brothers in such times as the one we're living on. I would very much like to meet you one day and give you hug, if I'm allowed to, for the encouragement I've been receiving, as an academic christian, from your videos. Thank you very much, and God bless your work and your ministry.
thanks so much for the kind words!
It makes total sense. As a pastor, studying to be an apologist, and an ardent Lewis and Tolkien admirer, I feel that this concept makes the most sense. Great content!
I believe you are exactly right. I was not taught this way I was not led to believe this in any way at all I have just always felt that everything you said is the truth. God bless you 🙏
What a beautiful way to reinvigorate our wonder at the world around us.
Thank you. I watched the whole video. Only my second video of you I’ve seen. Subbed. 😊
TBH, I’m not a Christian, but I very much want to be. I really want the Bible to be true, but I can’t simply make myself believe. I’ve tried. I’ve visited many churches and had long conversations with many pastors over the last few years.
So, I consider myself an agnostic now, but can’t fully believe in atheism or strict naturalism either. I’m kind of in a limbo state now following a Buddhist path. Yet, I find the lack of a meaningful theology in Buddhism unsatisfying.
I’m a conservative and reject many of the secular degeneracies I see around me in the modern world. I believe in objective morality. Yet, despite all of my seeking, I have yet to find God.
I keep looking for God, but this issue of natural evil is one of the two biggest hurdles against believing in God as presented in the Bible. (The other big hurdle for me is the topic of divine hiddenness, btw.)
I need to marinate in your ideas more, but I very much appreciate the food for thought!
As a normal person (and not a philosopher per se), I don’t know all of the history or people or works you mentioned. I was happy to learn about some new viewpoints that seem to align with my own intuitions, such as that this earthly life is a kind of training camp for the afterlife. I think suffering is absolutely necessary for the development of our souls and our morality.
I even had an instant epiphany (which I quickly rejected - but still could make for an interesting fiction book) when you noted that demons are incarcerated in the earth. I wondered… what if we are actually all demons ourselves and our lives are attempts to learn from suffering and redeem ourselves so we can one day re-enter God’s heavenly kingdom?!? But then I quickly realized that the Bible clearly delineates a difference between humans and demons (or angels). While it was an interesting thought, I don’t think there is any solid theological basis to believe that our souls are actually fallen angels. As I said though, maybe it could make for a good fiction book!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and so glad to be connected to you!
Something that helped me in my belief in Christianity was looking into the ressurection, the historical facts behind the empty tomb and accounts, the transformation in the view of James the skeptic brother of Jesus, the willingness of all the disciples to die without renouncing belief in Jesus's ressurection and the fact that based upon the Jewish beliefs at the time to come up with or hallucinate the ressurection wouldn't happen as individual ressurection was never thought of and ascension like Elijahs would be a more natural idea.
Made it to the end. The universe is enchanting and most probably enchanted! Thanks for your work!
Thanks!
Made it through very easily! Great thoughts… have so many questions
Was talking about the Fall with my small group and I brought up the point of evil before it affected humanity and was referred to this video. Very great ideas, I still don’t think it explains why God would create angels knowing that they would cause the fall of man but God is sovereign and I’m okay if we can’t know why. First video of yours that I’ve watched and I can’t wait to get into more. Thank you!
thanks, glad to be connected to you!
Thanks for your work. I love listening to your videos! I'm a retired missionary. I ministered for 14 years in 2 countries where most Christians are Orthodox (Egypt and Russia). I've been curious how many of the Catholic and Orthodoxy believes came about, which your videos give great insight into.
Just came across this. I made it to the end! I’ve actually been thinking about this idea myself independent of ever hearing about it before! Thanks so much for the video.
I love these conversations and I feel like some of the considerations that seem the most bizarre on their immediate face, upon further thought, end up being the most logical and almost undeniable to be true. There is no denying that the spiritual realm is so much more intimately entwined with our material realm than we realize.
I have been journeying through Michael Heiser's work in recent years and seeing all of creation with fresh eyes. I'm grateful to have come across your channel and it has been so edifying and enriching. Thank you Gavin!
This is so helpful Gavin!
Just finished the video. I enjoyed your presentation and the theodicy is very interesting. Do you have any videos or papers that further discuss this Idea of disenchantment/enchantment? It's something that was recently discussed in one of my church history classes and I'd like to hear your perspective. Thank you for the great video!
I made it to the end. I didn't know this was a fringe idea! I grew up imagining that 'the fall' that affected humsna was proceeded by the one in heaven where the accuser and his followers entered into rebellion to try and make themselves 'like god'. I imagined this as the moment in which the sustaining presence of YHWH was cut off or at least restricted to some aspects of his creation who were essentially choosing to unplug from him. It was within this fall that I saw imperfect corruptions being introduced to the universes code with cascading effects that eventually reached the earthly realm = especially after humans too asserted their unGodly independence thinking that they could 'be like God' too. God was like "well, if you think you don't need me and my sustaining gift of life, then so be it' - at which point life had to sustain itself by the consumption of life. Perhaps when this happened (if it did like I described) God felt the need to make a few small tweaks to the design of the natural world so that it could sustain itself upon itself rather than with assistance by his sustaining life force. Also, perhaps, this scenario along with the cascading effects of entropy over quite some time has resulted in this system becoming unbalanced. It's yet another proof by lived experience that God is showing us that we need him for balance, order, and goodness to be maintained.
I was walking at night listening to this and what you said at the end was magical while I looked up at the stars
Made it to the end. Great video
Made it to the end. This idea helped me yrs ago to let go of my YE Creationism. So glad to hear that it has a heritage. I must say, you have inspired me to imagine further.
I still have some questions and hangups, but this explanation seems at least as plausible as any other to my mind.
I will also say, I am very intrigued with the notion that angels (and demons) are behind the material world we experience and were assigned roles in sustaining, governing, and possibly manipulating, different facets of the physical world. Truly fascinating! However, I am still uncomfortable with the idea, on biblical grounds, that angels contributed somehow to creation itself.
I finished this! Thank you for opening my aperture a bit. The more I get into Lewis, the more I realize how saturated he was in ancient Christianity. I do have one question for clarification… if fallen angels were subverting the world during the very process of creation, how can it be said that it was good before the fall?
I made it to the end!! This is one of your most exciting videos yet. Gavin, thanks for sharing your devotion to God by edifying us! Usually I feel too intimidated by your vast knowledge of church history to bother trying to dialogue, but this was super relatable. To look up at the stars and at the beauty of nature is something that God gifted us to make His existence apparent on earth. Acknowledging and engaging these kinds of mysteries really does bring enchantment into one's soul - it's the best way to feel like a kid full of wonder all over again! And didn't Jesus say to be like the little children is what we ought to aim for in some way? To love fellowship with each other in the way of discussing God's amazing and mysterious creations and providence will never get us to the final answer but it's endless fun (definitely the opposite of a barren perspective) and these puzzles are one of the many things to look forward to - I personally can't wait to know all the answers to these paradoxical riddles once we are with God! ❤😊 Thank you again for this video!
made it till the end. Great content.
To me the angelic fall theodicy seems quite and intuitive reading of scripture.
POE is by far my toughest problem. Let me start the popcorn… 🍿
I do have a problem with omnipotence because of this.
Finished the video. Thought it was good. The issue of natural evil before man’s fall has always kept me a YEC. This was an interesting perspective
Made it to the end. Thanks Gavin.
Your channel is generally excelent.
Great! I made it to the end, but it wasn't hard to do. I'm right there with you. I couldn't have told you about the precedent in church history but probably was primed for it by Lewis. I'm glad you weren't too hard on Milton, though - I loved Paradise Lost, though it's probably not the best source for technical theology. Though I note you're not afraid to use illustrations of his poem as your artwork.
Oh, the places and spaces I haven't dared to enter on my own.. 😅 thank you Gavin.
Made it to the end. Fantastic brother.
I watched to the end. Personally when I read (ok I listened to the audiobook) Tolkiens acount for the first time I found this idea really compelling and still do. Thanks Dr. Ortlund
Dr. OrtLund.
Thank you. I got through the video. I join the many brothers and sisters to say this makes a lot of sense. Definitely opens up many good and needed questions.
Shalom
I listened to the end. I agree that this helps solve the theodicy problem, but how can we harmonize it with Genesis 1:31? If Satan's angels have been corrupting creation since the beginning, how can God look at it when it is finally complete and see that it is very good?
Finished the whole thing. Love all your thoughts on this. And I went to church years ago with your friend, Austin Freeman.❤ Looking forward to reading his book now.
Hello Dr. Ortlund. I loved this presentation. Tolkien does give us the tools to "re-enchant" our overly modernized world view; tools that GK Chesterton believed to be critical. Are you familiar with Dr. Ralph C. Wood's "the Gospel According to Tolkien"? (Baylor Univesity). Please take this as a compliment from someone graced by his mentorship, I think he might call you a fellow Bapto-Catholic in how you see many issues. 🙂
I thought about this more and I do think it is interesting, but I am still trying to understand how passing 'the blame' onto angels reduces the culpability that some would claim God has in suffering. For an all knowing, all powerful entity, suffering still exists.
I prefer to think that it is only in a humanity that submits to God and finds His perfect will, that such suffering will begin to diminish. As humans, we are quickly spoiled and corrupted by an 'easy life'. I don't know that ending scarcity or suffering should be done until humanity 'earns it' by finding and following God's perfect will.
Hey Dr. Ortlund
God bless you!
From a Catholic😄🤝
So interesting. Now I have to decide whether to allude to this possibility (and even possibly prefer it) in my book's introduction. Hmmm.
I listened till the end. This was really thought provoking. Dr. Michael Heiser helped re awaken my love for scripture and it started with talking about the divine council. I had reached a point where the unknown in certain passages left me very perplexed and then i listened to his book the Unseen Realm and realized how much I actually had to learn and how much I was missing in what Christ was doing. How arrogant was I to think i had figured this thing called the bible out? Anytime I look at the sky I am filled with a sense of awe that the God who made me is there and that he is wanting me.
Just finished. Excellent as always. I’ve already shared it!
Of course I made it all the way through to the end! The ideas explored are fascinating - and helpful. Food for thought. Thank you Gavin.
Thank you for this video, Gavin! I think this is a superb representation of the traditional Christian imagination on the subject. We all of us have been deracinated of our Christian ethos with the scientific revolution and enlightenment. What I loved about this video is that it seems to have pointed a way forward, so that both the truth of science and the truth of the supernatural can dovetail into one whole reality.
P. S. Made it to the end.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943 while Jesus was announcing the kingdom of God in Galilee and Judea, he primarily focused on a Jewish audience, all the while including gentiles whom the Father had prepared to receive healing and salvation. After his resurrection, Christ threw open the kingdom of God for the whole world (see Matthew 28).
There is no misconception as to the term ha satan (the accuser). While the term does not connote a proper noun in the sense of a name, there is no doubt that Jesus used the idea of Satan or the devil to refer to the ruler of this age who has been a liar from the beginning (John 8:44).
With regard to your notion of a war I Heaven being a pagan importation, I find this highly dubious and unconvincing. In the Apocalypse of John there is a war in heaven. In Genesis 6 there is a rebellion of angelic beings. And before all of that, there was a primordial enemy in serpent form in the Garden of God, temping humans away from fealty to the LORD.
This is the area I’ve been stumped on for a while now. Thanks for offering a possible explanation-and it’s a thought provoking one!
I love this discussion! You bless me every time you speak. Thank you sir!!
I’m a Catholic that enjoys watching your video despite disagreeing with you on a lot of stuff! But I must say that this is pretty much exactly what my view is and I don’t think it’s a strange theological opinion at all! Thanks for the video!
Saw it all, excellent, one of your best videos! I'm a confessional Lutheran leaning towards young Earth creationism, but, yes, demons as presiding over defects in creation and angels (principalities, powers, thrones) as presiding over stars makes a Biblical sense.
I not only made it all the way to the end but loved every second so much i wish it would have gone for a little while longer :)
This is great.
Thanks so much for addressing this important topic that has been bothering me. You asked all the same questions I do and attempted to address concerns about animal suffering
Made it to the end! I’m in seminary now at a reformed seminary. Your videos are of such a high quality they frequently supplement my lessons in substantial ways. Incredible feat to make this accessible to us free of charge. Your ministry is beyond useful. Would be interested in discussing more. 58:26
I appreciate that! God bless you in your studies!
Listened all the way to the end! (Which was not difficult as this was awesome!). This was really good. I'll have to read the articles you wrote. Two books I've read that are in the same sphere: Michael Heiser's Unseen Realm and John Peckham's Theodicy of Love.
Thanks for your great content!
yeah that was epic. Thanks for this lesson!
This is an incredible concept! Plato even gets at this. In Timaeus there's a passage where he talks about God creating the gods and tasking them with the formation of the world and the governance of humanity. You could argue he sees the Greek pantheon as angels (maybe demons is more accurate in keeping with patristic thought). Thanks for sharing this! I'll be chewing on it for a while.
Easily watched the entire video. Much appreciated.
We inhabit four dimensions but those four dimensions are imbedded in higher dimensions who are inhabited by higher created beings and above all dimensions, God.
I made it all the way through to the end! This is a very interesting topic, as you explained and unpacked things I had a lot of teachings of the late Dr. Michael Heiser in my head I believe that a lot of what he's taught pairs well with this idea.
Thanks for this. I am by coincidence reading the Silmarillion right now and this just added a whole other level. I do see the problem of natural evil now more clearly. Loved hearing that old earth was actually the more conservative view until only in the last century.
Man this is *such* a good video. Thank you for all of the work you've put in doing the research and writing it up in an accessible way. It's very impressive and I'm grateful that we live in this crazy TH-cam world where I can benefit from it so easily. Thank you!
Made it through brother. Like a lot of the other comments I too find Heiser's perspective a very compelling one and this idea is very happy in that world view. This vid. was a timely one for me, really helped me get past some things I've been wrestling with so thanks for that!
Made it to the end, of course! Great video! I appreciate so much about this, shall I list? I shall.
1. Clear explanation of how this question of the origin of natural evil arises naturally when meditating on Genesis and creation in general, and treating seriously our intuition that nature is indeed pretty bloody and brutal.
2. Clear discussion of the options on the table, and helpful situation of the different ideas in history. Your analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the different positions seems spot on to me! I was both affirmed in some ways and challenged in others. Just great!
3. Fascinating explication and defense of the idea angels (and demons) are so much more more integrated in our universe than our modern imagination is able to conceive. Ensouled stars considered seriously by church fathers? Mind-blowing. But you approach this in such a clear, concise, reasonable way that I find myself considering it whereas I would have blown off the idea before. Well-done!
Excellent video, my inclinations are very similar. You're not crazy!
Finished it! I’ve thought about this many times over. I have believed in the barrenness of atheism and the hopelessness it churns over and over. I appreciate that last little bit of your honest and vulnerable position- that even if you’ve been duped, it’s better than the alternative. That resonated with me the most. I long for that eternal and true embrace from God and yet work in the chaotic, painful and evil world that bucks up against that hope. I live in the in-between tension of hope and hopelessness. It’s awful- when it’s the later. Anyway- thank you for all the work you do and share with the world. I love the depth and detail to address most every objection one could or has come up with.
Excellent video and review of the problem of evil that is not often discussed. Will need to watch this video again to understand all the nuance.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
I watched all the way to the end. This is a thought-provoking idea that's going to be bouncing around in my head for a while, so thank you for putting it out there.
Also, regarding the idea that God made the world in an imperfect way in preparation for the Fall, this is consistent with St. Paul's comment in Romans about God subjecting the creation to futility (assuming you take that passage to refer to all of physical creation and not just humanity).
I just finished The Silmarillion a few months ago and am still trying to figure out how all this stuff fits together (Hugh Ross’s Old Earth Creationism seems to fall under developmentalism to me but I still don’t know how to make sense of how the fall of some angels could cause something like the second law of thermodynamics). 🤷🏽♂️ Thank you for the video and the taxonomy. That helps provide a grid for some of my thinking on this.
YES! _I want to hear more!_ I had never heard of this approach before, but it sounds quite plausible. Let us know when you will expand on it, okay? Thanks!
Thank you, Gavin. This is one of the best discussions about this issue (long troubling to me) I’ve encountered. I, too, believe the world is enchanted, shot through with Grace. We often fail to See what’s Real. Thank you for this. I’m so impressed with your work. As a very nearly Catholic (raised Presbyterian), and trained in philosophy and a 40 year student of theology, I appreciate you.
Made it to the end. I’ve recently wrestled with this problem. As I considered the interaction of the creation in Genesis with evolutionary discoveries and felt intuitively that this was a possibility. Glad to see there is orthodox historical and intellectual precedent for it.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943you should maybe read the gospel completely and not just the cherry picked bits and pieces that fit your heretical worldview.
What an amazing video. Just finished it, and I couldn't be more impressed. What a beautiful theology, and a beautiful ending. Thank you so much for everything you do.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943, stop quoting Jesus in a misleading way! You will be called to account in the way you represent him. When Jesus instructed his disciples not to preach to the Gentiles, that was in a specific context. Matthew 10 is called the limited commission. After Jesus death and resurrection, he sent his disciples out into all nations, to the gentiles as well as the Jews. “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” - Matthew 28.
@@aldencole6714
"In a misleading way " a bit ironic.
Also representing him? I'm just showing the quote that says preach to gentiles or samaritans. So for your argument you believe he changed his mind after the crucifixion ?
@@happymate8943 Jesus' mission was to the Jew first, then to the Greek, as Paul says speaking in the Spirit in Romans 1:16 and as is obvious throughout the entire NT and OT. Read through the Bible and you will see it! Look at Jesus' talking about his role as Shepherd in Jn 10:16, or the Revelation given to Peter in Acts 11. Once the gospel of Jesus' Lordship was spread to the Jews, it was then spread to the gentiles.
@@aldencole6714
You realize paul never met or followed jesus during his time alive? Also saying a "spirit" of him going to paul, who never met jesus and persecuted his followers, in order tell to convert gentiles sounds unbelievable.
Also peter argued with paul over somthing like that as well.
Thanks for mentioning George Pember’s book “earths earliest ages”. Definitely wortreading.