Grain Absorption Rates: Cooler Mash Tun Versus BIAB (An Experiment)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- Wanting to a handle on the differing grain absorption rates of my various all-grain home brew systems, I did some experiments to determine the real values to use for each type of system when designing a beer recipe so that I can make beer that closer resembles the recipe.
Two types of brewing systems are examined: cooler based mash tuns and brew in a bag (or basket).
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Larry, you are on top of it! Great mind my friend.... can't wait for you upcoming videos!
Thank you very much!
Great to see you back Larry! An interesting video for sure :)
Thanks, David! Glad to be back. LOL
Your doin the the engineering brotherhood proud Larry! Thanks once again!
Thanks. You're very welcome.
Glad to see you back Larry, and back to the basics.
Thanks. Glad to be back.
Much needed info. Have an issue getting a full 5 gallons into my keg, i do BIAB and use brewfather and never really paid to much attention to absorption rates just plugged in the numbers and let it be, definitely will put more thought into this. Thank you
This is one of the reasons why I use my own brewing “software”; to get a full five gallons into each keg. It works backwards from your desired final packaged beer volume adding losses along the way to give you the required starting water volume to get there.
Other tools do not do that, or do it as well.
@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY cool....any chance of sharing this so others can use it? Computers aren't my thing that's why I rely on brewfather, ease of use
Sure. I've been sharing publicly for many years via my website beernbbqbylarry.com and my TH-cam video descriptions.
However, the 4.0 version is still in beta and won't be available for a while yet. The latest released is v3.7.
Great video Larry, very informative. The mashing evaporation was really interesting.
Thanks. Yes, it was an eye opener. I knew it was there but ignored it until it started causing me issues.
This makes perfect sense. I've been changing my grain absorption rate to .38 as the last few times I've brewed my beer on my Anvil Foundry I've gotten .38 qt/lb grain absorption. Amazing video.
Thank you, and thanks for the confirmation.
Late to the party (and all the best for you Larry) but I recently discovered this too. On my old 5gal-system, I used to mash with a lid on the mash tun. Using a standard absorption rate gave me pretty accurate estimates for the amount of wort after mashing. However, on my new system (B40pro) the mash tun is open and I suddenly had unexpected losses after mashing. Evaporation during mashing is a factor. Thanks!
I freakin love this channel
Mash evaporation rates? I thought that was a myth. Good work, Larry. Cheers
I never paid it any attention over the years until I started open mashing.
Good stuff. Larry! Looking forward to the next updates.
Thank you. Hops rate video should be out soon.
Nice never even thought about this but interesting to think about. Will have to look at my equipment profile
I've already reduced my BIAB profiles to account for the difference. (I should of done that a long while ago.)
Man, I love nerding out on brewology!
It does help me dust off and rehone my engineering skills a bit. My current job doesn’t let me do this sort of stuff any more.
Great science, thank you!
Enjoyed this video a lot Larry. Really good stuff. I did learn something! Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Great video Larry. Definitely a worthy topic. My Grainfather system is about .38 qt/lb +\-and I find if I leave the lid off for whatever reason I’ll lose more than if I left the lid on. Definitely something for me to consider for my future.
I should check my grainfather brew day archives to see what my average for it was. My hunch is around .4
Love the engineer problem solving strategy..🥰😎
Interesting as always Larry. Take care.
Thank you. Glad you liked it.
Great job! I lived it. Looking forward to more.
Thank you. I’m already working on the next one.
Great video, thanks!
You're welcome! Glad you liked it.
Great video. I have been having problems honing in the different absorption rates on a hand me down system. Also I hope everything is going well with you and the family.
Well, I hope this helps. If necessary, you can do similar experiments on your system, or use your past brew day logs to determine it.
Good video!
I don't ever leave the lid off of either of those systems? I guess I would ask why you leave the lid off? Good experiment!! 👍🍻
I followed their instructions?!? LOL. Spike especially has said to not cover their mash basket during the mash because you have to watch out for an overflow. There's been issues reported on that from a number of customers. It almost happened to me...once. LOL. Now, I leave the lid off all the time.
@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY OH.. lol What instructions?!? I guess I missed that part. Makes sense I guess. I've had a feeling different grains had different rates. Like wheat malt I think has a higher absorbtion rate. Looking forward to the next experiment! 👍🍻
Great info Larry. I brew in a mesh basket and recirculate for the 60 min. I have always covered the pot as soon as I feel it’s flowing nicely. I noticed I wasn’t loosing very much to grain absorption and evaporation.
Thanks larry good to see a video from you, your such an engineer!🤣. Seems since I switched to an anvil absorption had been high but could be wrong.
Thanks. It shows, eh?
Just take good temperature baselined measurements and calculate your real average rate on it.
Fantastic video! I appreciate the level of detail you hash out!! Any correlation to overall brew results and ultimate flavor/taste you have noted?
Thanks. The correlation of results was shown in the video for several recipes where my actual rate aligned with the results of these experiments. Now, I'll use the new value for BIAB batches. The only effect on flavor is from having a thinner/weaker beer than designed.
I did water experiments on my system after 10 first all grain brews and found the northern brewers starter kit buckets are off by a quart. Thats a quart short. It matters when crunching numbers man. Grain absorption rate has been my goal to figure out. With biab its one of the two most important water losses
You could weigh the grain after…. and the wort (to account for the solubles)
For the experiment, sure. It’d be impractical to do on a real brew day.
Plus, you’d have to convert it to volume anyway, so I just leave it as volume from the start.
Yup!
Adding grain will affect evaporation tastes, but probably not enough to worry about.
How do you measure the absorption? What I mean is, if you were to mash 1 lb in one gallon for an hour, then strain it and measure the residual water, wouldn't water continue to drip out for an extended period? When do you take that measurement? How much different would it be 10 or 15 minutes later? For instance, if I didn't notice the mash tun finished draining?
I try to mimic what my mash equipment would do which typically would be to let it drain until dripping slows until it just about stops.
Good job Thanks
Welcome 👍
So the Spike Solo I can use .35qt per pound grain absorption rate? Nice to know! Explains why my final yields were off...
Me too. It matches all of my previous Solo brews. That's my new value to use for it going forward.
Interesting experiment! Thanks for providing the metric conversion:) For more precise measurements you could have weighed the water with a scale, it's more accurate than measuring by volume and it's not influenced by temperature. I use a postal scale to measure my strike water, it goes up to 50 kg with an accuracy of +- 2grams.
Did you squeeze the bag for the BIAB mash?
Great point! I did film a segment on the option of using weight but ultimately cut it from the video. In summary, I choose not to due to not having a accurate enough scale that could hold that much weight.
I did not intentionally squeeze the bags. I wanted to see what the natural drain through the bag would since it would better mimic my BIA-Basket systems.
Good to see you back brother.
Do you think that water chemistry has any effect on water absorption? I am not sure how measurable it would be, but it is likely to have some effect.
Thanks! No. It's almost entirely about water and air temperatures, partial pressures, and humidity like the Mollier chart used in HVAC calculations.
@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY I would think the chemistry of water would have some effect on solubility, especially hardness or softness. What do I know though. HAHA I am just the consumer.
Duh. I misread your question. I was thinking of evaporation when you’re meant absorption. Sorry 😞
Maybe. I’m not a bio chemist. lol
Killer beard my man
It just grew back in the past few weeks. I had shaved it right before it got COLD. LOL
Nice video. Curious if you squeezed the bag after the mash in the BIAB test? I do squeeze the bag on my BIAB system and my absorption is about .25 qt/lb.
No. I was intentionally very gentle when moving the bag to not squeeze it to better represent my brew systems.
I like this kind of content. thanks! I also saw the Grainfather in your spreadsheet. How are the numbers looking for that system? I'm inputting 1.0 L/Kg in my profiles and that seems to give me the correct water quantities.
That’s a great question. I’d have to go back to my Grainfather recipes stored their recipe website and manually calculate them individually since it doesn’t tell you.
My hunch is that it’s somewhere between .35 and .5 qt/lb which is somewhere between .73 and 1.04 L/kg.
hello Larry from the bottom of mainland Australia, this is probably a bit off the topic but it relates to water, I have noticed that the PH of my local mains water is always varying too so it pays to have a PH metre and check it when brewing, this summer 'which has been cold by the way' the PH has been up, usually it is PH 6.8 now it is PH 9.0 so an addition of lactic acid seems to help, all I do is when recirculating the mash is I add half a milliliter of lactic acid then check and if it is between 5.2 and 5.6 I know I'm right, my local water is from a eucalyptus forest in a mountain range and is very soft water and perfect for brewing pressure fermented lagers and the PH is usually around PH 6.8 I have no idea if it is to do with old rusted water pipes and if that has an effect in warmer weather or not, anyway, cheers 🍺
I now have pH meter as well but only for a few months. I used pH strips prior but being color blind, I found them difficult to read. lol
With a roughly 33% difference in water absorption from a no bag cooler mash to biab mash, have you tried different bag sizes? A small bag may keeps the grains together in a tighter grouping thus allowing less water to freely circulate between the grain husks versus a very large bag, which could maybe mimic the cooler mash for grain separation. If so, it would be interesting to see if there is any efficiency difference between bag sizes.
That's an interesting thought, but I have not since I really don't do true BIA-Bag (I have Baskets instead) except when doing small stove top batches. I think it's more to do with the slight compression that results from the weight of grains and the shape of the bag/basket that squeezes out more of the wort when lifted out of the kettle than if it were left alone loose in a traditional mash tun.
Some BIABer really squeeze their bag getting it down to around .3 qt/lb.
That a good question and a good answer. My thought is, using the, "butterfly membrane mash filter press" as the gold standard (and the 100 psi of mechanical force applied to the wet grain/flour) can the absorber water we are concerned about be recovered? Which would be the post process absorption rate (after_squeezed).
interesting. i think weighing your water will be more accurate than volume.
I am glad you also have an inquisitive mind. Is there a calculator out there that can calculate the ore mash SG?
My brewing spreadsheet does mash gravity calculations.
Surprised that the standard spreadsheet doesn’t account for water loss through evaporation during the mashing stage.
Even if the temperature is lower in the mashing stage compared to the boil there will still be water loss. Is the mash container covered ? Another factor.
In large scale industrial brewing facilities water conservation is standard practice that reduces costs and waste stream treatment and handling.
When you are running several mash tuns of 50,000 litres or more, the losses are significant.
No brewing software currently does this. My spreadsheet is the first of its kind (as far as I know). The latest version (4.0) has a field for entering mash evaporation rate as well as a toggle to indicated whether the lid is on or off during the mash.
@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY that’s what science and knowledge is all about - keep pushing those boundaries for better outcomes and improvements.
Having a chemical engineering background and some experience in the Food processing industry, a critical first step in any process is carrying out a mass and energy balance across individual unit operations (such as a fermentation step) as well as across the entire production process.
In some industries it’s critical to know what is happening to the material and energy flowing through the facility. A nuclear power plant for example can’t afford to have unaccountable water losses which could mean a leak or weld rupture etc.
Cheers
Keep up the great work
So, this might be a no brainer for some of you guys, but I grew up in the metric system, and Beersmith uses US measurements. Please tell me, how does 0.35qt/lb and 0.5qt/lb translate into fl.oz/oz? As this is the unit for grain absorption that Beersmith uses.
There are 32 fl oz in a quart and 16 oz wt per lb.
@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY so, 0.7 and 1.0 respectively?
Hey Larry, I was just reading some info on another page that has me grinning in disbelief. Is there anything to the concept that a phase of the moon affects grain absorption rate? When I read that I found it to be humorous, not real. But again, what the hell do I know? I am just a hobby brewer consumer. Somebody claimed that the Beersmith software was light on grain absorption rates and then they responded with some crap about phases of the moon. Cheers Hop Head
That’s a new one to me. It’s probably from the same type of people that think toilets flush in opposite directions in Northern and Southern Hemispheres due to the Coriolis effect.
so i'm confused. i use a cooler mash tun. is that better or worse than biab according to your experiment?
thanks
Depends if you consider having to use a little bit more water as being worse. Otherwise, no.
The only real difference is accounting for the loss and planning for it in your recipe design.
I am a bit confused here. If you measured a higher effective "absorption" due to evaporation with the open top systems, wouldn't you need to add more water to these in order to achieve the correct volumes? Using a 0.35 absorption would have you mash with less water than a 0.5 absorption, or am I not following the calculation correctly?
There are multiple factors in play around water losses with grain absorption being one of the bigger ones. Mash tun evaporation is also a factor but a smaller one that can get buried in the “noise” of brew day. I’m doing experiments around it now to determine its influence, but I expect that larger batches will be less affected by it (relatively) than smaller ones. For example, the small 1lb grain bill used in this video had a .35 qt/lb evap rate which was half of the total loss measured while a 20 lb grain bill will have a much great grain absorption loss than its relative evaporation loss.
@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY That makes sense, but like boil off rate it is probably more a function of equipment/surface area of the mash rather than batch size. The spike and the breweasy appear to have pretty large surface areas and probably have higher evaporations than your sous vide stock pot.
I'm still perplexed though. So after correcting for the evaporation, it really appears that grain absorbs less water in these systems compared to a cooler steep? With BIAB I suppose that makes sense because there may be some flow restrictions, but the brew easy has the malt 100% covered in circulating wort correct? I would assume it could reach full saturation.
Surface area is only one of several factors. Evaporation rate equations also include water and air temperature, convection currents, partial pressures, and humidity resulting in a very complicated solution which is unique to everyone, their equipment, and the particular day. This is why it makes little sense to attempt to calculate one to use for everything. I've struggled to no avail to implement such a formula in my spreadsheet. I still may, but that would require more information from the user who knows how to read a Mollier chart. LOL
I don't think it's a flow restriction issue. It's more to do with compression of the grains squeezing out some of the absorbed water which happened when pulling a bag/basket out of the kettle and due to the proportion of height to width of the basket while recirculating compressing grain under it's own weight.
My cooler system is wider than tall and doesn't experience either type of compression thus leaving more water behind in the grains.
@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY That's what I suspected. Maybe pedantic but the grain absorption is the same. However, due to exact conditions you mention, the amount of liquid retained between and on the surface of the grains is less for these types of systems. I guess that's where my hang up was, I didn't understand why you could use less water even though the grains have full ability to hydrate completely. There's just more recoverable wort. And practically, using grain absorption for this offset makes more sense than creating a new thing to worry about. Thanks for helping clear that up!
Hey Larry, I can see that was a lot of work, to put this video together.
Great experiments, and analysis my friend.... Very helpful. Very articulate, yet, very down to earth....
Incidentally, I have just purchased the Grainfather 220 volt. I used to brew grains some 30 years ago, along with distilling, when either hobby had very few in it, and information was mainly in libraries...... Ian smiley in Canada was a great resource... His PDA-1reflux still was very good.
Well, I had an intensive job, and could not stay at the hobby...Until now.....Now I am retired, and we are in the middle, hopefully near the end of covid..... and I cannot believe the improvements and information available in these hobbies........
I also have the Great Big Green Egg, and following your "Cue" excerpts......Enjoying your great channel!!
Excellent. Glad you rediscovered an old hobby or two. I'm kinda in a similar situation with very little free time due to my day job as well.