Every comment on this video: “Where’s the (insert either rare one off or wrong year span engine here)?” My question is: Where’s the Pontiac 301 dude? This test is bogus unsubscribed worst entertainment video ever
Where’s the Buick nailhead or Pontiac super duty or ford flathead or big block Packard! I’m so angry at you for not putting these totally weird engines that nobody builds on the dyno!
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing admittedly the nailhead is a great engine. Have a 401 in my 66 Electra and that thing gives me perspective on these big blocks in that all of them were made for different purposes. The nailhead and the big block Buick being built for low, effortless torque for a quiet, luxurious ride and not much else. I mean 6000 rpm with stock bottom end and you have a grenade waiting to go off, whereas the big block Chevrolet was designed for nascar to an extent lol. Makes me wonder why people wanna say which is best when these engines all come from car companies having different needs for an engine.
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing plus all of the people that shout about these niche engines miss the point. A nailhead is a wrong generation engine compared to all the big blocks you have in this video. It’s older 1950’s technology whereas all the big blocks in your video were all contemporaries. Plus I’ve seen requests for ultra rare engines like side oilers and other strange one off things like they’re part of the argument at all lol. You’re not picking up a super cobra jet in a junkyard.
@@LucoreAuto lol, ok. Good vid though. As you know, it doesn't matter how hard you try at parity, somebody's going to complain that well, you should've done this with the Mopar, or its not fair you did this with the poncho ect, ect. I'm admittedly a big block Chevrolet guy but have respect for all of them as they all have their good points and bad ones if you are honest with yourself. The trick is to know your chosen engine family very well and know what parts combinations work well together, even if factory and it can be quite amazing how much power any if them will make for not a huge $ outlay. I put together a 0.030 over 440 for a good friend of mine for his wheelin rig, 10.68 to 1 trw pistons, Edelbrock performer heads and intake, crane gold roller rockers, comp solid flat tappet cam, factory rods with arp bolts and balanced with a factory steel crank. It will wind 6500 against his rev limiter all day long and even doesn't mind an occasional 300 hit of gas. Makes incredible power even na on pump gas and is a reliable great engine.
@@johnasbach577 You are VERY correct Sir, unless we just had a spare $40,000 sitting around to build 4-5 identical big blocks across the brands you'll never get true Apples to Apples... to Apples and Apples ;) But, we tried! One of the things that made us want to put this video together for folks was to really put it all out there across a few of the major brands. We all have our loyalties but let's have an honest conversation about what they do what they can do and what they cost! The 451 Mopar I'll be honest will be a good motor for now in her '73 Charger but I think down the line with a head swap and a few more additions will become quite a monster. And with the prices Mopar folks can get GOOD aluminum heads?! Not fair! *cries the Pontiac guy*
@@LucoreAuto lol, yep. Very true that yes, anything can make gobs of power if you have unlimited amounts of $ to throw at it but most of us are not in that category and have to make due with what we can afford. But that's part of the fun in gaining knowledge of the parts readily available that work well together and those that will compromise your build. And really in this day and age none of us have any excuses in putting together something that is a poor build, or combination, because of so many before us who did all the hard work and research that is now at our fingertips with the click of a mouse. I think another thing that gets people in this game is the trap of unrealistic expectations of the combination that they have/can afford. As you know, every engine combination is a compromise, unfortunately lol!
Unfortunately we didn't have any customers currently building a 455 Buick BUT, we DO have a 455 Stage 1 we will be running on a chassis dyno in the next few days that should give us some numbers to compare with!
I bet that Olds would’ve topped 500ftlbs with a dual plane. Cool video. I’m an Olds guy but those Mopars are growing on me! They sound incredible and have just a ton of potential.
We talked about that quite a bit afterwards, a lot of "what if" scenarios. The Olds definitely had some power left in the tank with a few small things changed, obviously so did the Mopar. It can be a little maddening :) At the end of the day though in a cruising fun car do any of them REALLY need 500+ torque? Street tires already hate how they get treated ;)
@Dave Micolichek your Sir, have a VERY serious case of Big Block Addiction! Sounds like you certainly have some fun with your toys too, much better way to enjoy them than just sitting in the garage
Removed a 455 Olds from a 1969 Delta and installed it in my 1972 Cutlass. Engine was all stock. Car would fry the tires for a half a block. Mega torque monster.
We pulled one from a 71 delta 88 and freshened it and put in a 79 trans am. The motor was in the junkyard compleatly fresh from someone else's with a cam lobe beat down. We cleaned and put new gaskets and a crane powermax cam and it would completely shred tires even with the single plain holley street dominator intake that was all wrong for the engine lol
These motors weren't GREAT at making gobs of power into the higher revs, OR getting very good or even kind of good fuel economy... BUT they were GREAT at making lots of low end low RPM piles of tire melting torque. All of these motors are making north of 350+ torque at 2,000 RPM which is more than enough to break traction on anything but some serious sticky tires.
Alright we'll forgive you the putting an Olds in a TransAm but you're on shaky ground there Andy! ;) The old days of being able to find these things by the dozens sitting around in junk yards just waiting to be reborn are gone unfortunately but there are LOT of tales like this! Go get motor from yard, spend a couple hundred bucks fixing things, drop into smaller/lighter chassis, and run 11s! ;)
I'm 60 now, love these video's full of information to questions we had when we were younger. I am am a Pontiac fan since about 11 years old. This video is full of information for young guys wanting to build a motor. An awesome comparison and know you can pretty much build any motor. So just have fun.
This was a GREAT shootout, thank you! I had my Olds 455 gone through and balanced about 30 years ago, cost was about $1500 including a core b/c my block and heads were toast, unfortunately. Probably have over 200 Pulls on it now and maybe 50 hours, runs like a top with a Thermoquad on top. I'm gonna go out and hug it now, lol.
Prices have gone up a bit on these things over the past 30 years for sure! ;) Thanks for the view and comment, we are glad to finally have gotten this video together and tried to be as honest and up front as we could be about the strengths and details of each build. We know we won't probably be making people change teams, but at least maybe they'll learn a little bit more about "The Other Guys"!
My Olds moto was toast I had work done on it lot of work cross drilling for oil aline honed & bore decking I did the port and polish before the motor went out for work same with block work.. de-burr all the casting flashing in center Gally oil restrictors valve rotators installed ran like a bat out of hell...over 500 h.p. but when I built my Olds the machine work and assembly cost me $3,600. Back in 1990
@@peterrivney552 I go pretty easy on mine actually, WOT pulls are maybe 10 sec. and I keep it under 4500 most of the time. Probably why it's been trouble free. I'm not sure if the machinist cleaned up drainbacks, no doubt flow restrictors weren't done. It's a pulling HOSS though, I don't consider or treat it like a race engine.
@@harleytrott2335 I hope it's in good shape, I keep the revs to around 4500 to make sure there's enough oil in my 7qt pan. If you rebuild it, try to open up the drainback holes in the heads. I didn't know about this when I had mine rebuilt and there's a couple times when I think oil pressure began to fade. My solution has been to keep the oil level to top of dipstick mark and keep the revs reasonable. Does yours have a th400 or is it a manual trans?
It really REALLY is. Especially if you go the aluminum head route you're there in no time. But, when I pop the hood of an old classic Pontiac I want to see a light blue Poncho motor staring back at me!
I love the oldsmobile, I have a 70 455, nobody i know has had any luck with the tourqer intake on BB olds, seams to like a performer duel plane, or offenhauser portosonic single plane, Victor's have also had some success with solid numbers, thankyou for the review.
It would honestly have been nice to have a Performer on the Olds compared to the Torker, it doesn't seem to have really done any favors for it. With the power levels and RPM levels we are running on these motors, it's hard to beat the performance and driveability of a good duel plane. Thanks for the view and comment, hope you enjoyed!
You DO rapidly get into a conversation of how much power can you actually use, and especially with a street tire 😉 There's most certainly a value to "smiles per gallon"!
Pontiac was an in between a small block & big block Chevy. The great thing about Pontiac that a 326 cu & a 455 the block has the same dimensions on the outside. That's the beauty of Pontiac. You can't do that with Buick or Olds. But there also great motors just like Mopar & Ford.
@@fireballrobbie1744 definitely one of the more interesting parts of Pontiac design. Though also makes it hard ti tell exactly what you have unless you crawl under and look at the block stamp. Ask me if I've ever been screwed by THAT! ;)
Technically, Pontiac wasn't really a small block either. They designed the engine very well from the start, to go from 262 ci all the way to 455 ci, with small displacement having a lower deck height and larger displacement having higher deck height, the Pontiac V8 qualifies as both. Really, the only drawback is the head design, but most engines were using wedge heads at the time, and they are one of the better wedge heads of the period.
We are actually actively searching for a 460 to build since so many people have asked for it. While they have tons of potential we honestly don't have many BBF powered hot rods that run around the Central Ohio area. Over the entire 3+ years we did these 4 motors we had not 1 BBF customer needing a rebuild. But since so many people are asking for it... we're hunting for one ;)
As a Pontiac guy myself, I was VERY pleased with the sounds that thing makes and the numbers it made. Unfortunately, that Pontiac tax is REAL! Really looking forward to having it in the car and seeing how it actually performs.
I have an ex-brother-in-law whom him and his father ran a salvage yard. They hauling in a four door Pontiac with what looked like a plain Jane 400 small block. It had a two barrel on it. Somebody had to been building a sleeper and either their old lady or some idiot decided it was time it got towed. But it would rip them loose only at half throttle. 🔥
Pontiac didnt make a big block or a small block. They're all the same size. Should of called it big cubes showdown. Great video! Thanks for the content
Yes yes we Pontiac folks always bring this up ;) Unfortunately if we want to play in a class with others, we have to sign up for the Big Block Class so that's just the rules we went with! :) Glad you enjoyed the video and we very much appreciate the view! We'll have the 455 Buick Stage 1 on a dyno here soon as well so we can let the OTHER member of the BOP family shine!
@@marioncobaretti2280 as Poncho folks we ALWAYS have to bring it up on conversation, it's like our secret club handshake. If you don't know, then you aren't REALLY a Pontiac person ;)
@@LucoreAuto The 455 Pontiac has more similarity to the 400 Chevy small block than to a big block Chevy. Canted valves and worked heads on a blueprinted crate motor is not fair on a dyno, but is much more fair comparing them going down the street 1/4 mile. I would rather you had taken a 400 RA IV or II if it was going to be a dyno evaluation.
Glad you liked it. We DID test a Buick 455 right after this however it was alresdy in a Buick GS. Should be able to find it in our stuff on here. It did... well 😀
It's hard to witness the dramatic emotions of some people here. My goodness. You cannot even compare 4 big block engines without some people pining over their preferences being left out and practically crying on their monitors about it. We're on a big block musclecar guy video where some can't hide their inner child. I felt that Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing did an exceptional job here to detail these intricacies and specifics. Highly educational. It was worth the three years in the making. Thank you.
Built 505 Pontiac pump gas motor, made 860 hp, but could’ve built BBC 1050 hp pump gas motor for 1/2 then Pontiac. You have to be a diehard Pontiac guy to spend almost twice as much and make 200 less hp. Its in Pro Street 70 GTO.
Yeahhhh that's just the price you pay to be a part of the Cool Kids Pontiac world ;) BUT, it's great to see something that's not a BBC/SBC when you pop the hood of a hotrod.
Unfortunately we literally don't have a SINGLE customer in the past 4 years that's built or worked on a 460 Ford or we absolutely would have included that! We'll keep an eye out though for one to show off in the future :)
@@droppedf100 oddly we really don't. We do a TON of classic work but can count the number of BBF powered vehicles on one hand. Just not a very popular power plant for Central Ohio hotrods I guess :(
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing too bad. I just put together a std. 2 bolt block, 521 cubes, 290 TFS heads, 600 lift flat tappet cam. An easy 550 crank hp for $5k.
I have a 455 in a jet boat. It’s freshly mildly built. The old one made great power despite having a oil pan full of metal chips and lots of other problems. Whole cost for rebuilding to about 400 hp was 3,000. Pretty cheap.
@@martywennihan5572 I have a 70 sidewinder jetboat....455 ...I run it at 5500 all day long..after I setup the crankcase scavenging system..does not use oil..does not smoke..msd ignition is set to redline at 5500... Berkeley 12jg pump.. AA impeller..place diverter..Holley 850 DP. Torquer intake...I've run this engine for 5 years..no problems...
The 451 and 511 B versions I have been building since I was 15 for my father . Idles nice but listening to it ramp up I can hear the tension it has then the fatal decrease of rpm. Those heads weren’t the issue , the springs certainly are. Stage V heads would be phenomenal but unnecessary, needing a little massaging , but yes could have suffered some . There a lot of options, knowing especially having built F.A.S.T racing engines in the past , if you slapped on a set of closed chamber heads (properly with matching springs and of which the quench area of those Icon pistons were developed for ) would bring you over 500 hp and even greater than 500lbs of torque. I would love to have that engine in my hands . I have something similar, with a TM6 manifold, closed chamber and it’s pissing all over the numbers of that 454. Not bragging , just touching base for anyone wanting to build one and display greater what that engine is capable of . My 511 version is over 700 hp.
Definitely appreciate the comment and Mopar knowledge, hopefully you've watched the more recent videos on the 451 Mopar as some of these issues were sorted out. Unfortunately it was definitely hobbled in the Big Blow Wars contest!
And the Mopar is much easier to work on and more durable than the GM stuff. Shaft rockers, dry intake, external oil pump, 2 piece water pump/housing, factory windage tray, distributor up front...
Found the channel by accident - I was quite impressed by the even-handed evaluation. I'm a Mopar fan (due to an incident with a 90 000 mile "badly out of tune" 69 Charger 440 Magnum 40 years ago) but frankly I would be delighted with any of those engines.
Well welcome, glad you enjoyed the video! We tried to be as fair and honest as we could be, any time you have 4 big brands battling it out there's always plenty of mud slinging! As a Mopar guy, is the 451 you had heard much of anything about? Seems like it was more of an oldschool setup than what people see these days. If you are interested btw, we have the entire build up of that motor here on our channel in the Momma's Mopar playlist. Welcome aboard!
The 425 Olds is a way better engine than the 455. The 455 like the 68-69 400 is under square and a wheezy up on top. The 65-67 400-425 ( over square) were awesome runners and steel cranks.
That olds made decent power considering the junk speed pro pistons with high tension rings. Those speedmaster heads actually cc out at 84. With those slugs and a felpro head gasket, you would be lucky to hit 9:1. Left an easy (and cheap) 100hp in the olds. Needs a set of srp or cp bulltet pistons (not $$). They're are many stock olds heads that flow better than the speedmaster so don't consider that an advantage lol.
You are definitely understanding what I was trying to get across in the video that the speedmaster heads weren't doing this thing any major favors. Aside from weighing less and handling heat better, they really are no better than a GOOD cast iron Olds head. But we would have had more money on buying a good set of Olds heads having them rebuilt and ready to run than what we had in the Speedmasters so... it is what it is. There's definitely some power left in that Olds for sure, as honestly there is across the board. None of these were really built for big power numbers more of a "what does stock stuff in stock form make". A little bit of port work on those heads, bumping the compression up, better pistons, a better intake, and that Olds would have certainly seen a serious bump in power BUT... that would be a different episode ;) Plus, when you start making considerably more power up front, you've got to upgrade everything in the middle and out back or things go BOOM! :) Hopefully you enjoyed the video, we'll do our best to keep more of this kind of content coming!
I have wanted to Make many comments on the video. As having built all of these engines and many more. I would agree with the power and part used on the Olds. But as this video is set up, horsepower on a budget build. I would say it was pretty good. I would agree that there are much beer parts that would build more power, but would cost a lot more. The guy got a great find on this engine and is a decent build for the street.
There's some stroker kits for the mopar 400 that makes it a 512, you don't have to grind down a 440 crank, they bolt right in and run great, them 400s got that huge bore so fitting cubes in them are pretty easy nowdays
There are for sure a TON of options for stroker kits on both the B and RB series Mopar motors. In this case we were aiming to keep it as close to the other motors as possible for the purposes of this video. The NEXT one we build will likely be with an aftermarket rotating assembly somewhere in the 500 cubic inches or so. That and get rid of these crappy cast iron heads!
@@jez_stephensanotherapex5921 we're actually trying to hunt down a project to do a 460 Ford in, oddly they just aren't very popular for hot rod people around here.
What about the ford 460? I think it it easily the best. I have one sitting in my garage....I don't know how to get it to your dyno, but I would let you run it .Dove heads with port work anyone can do, and stock valves reground, .040 over bored block so something like 472cid, comp cams extreme 262 kit . stock rods with arp bolts , but it is zero decked(For quench) and 10.0 compression. You can run a bit more compression on 91 when you have quench right, and of course that is just static compression, but the cam timing events keep it on the higher side for the dynamic compression also.I had a 12.5 compression 427 bbc with more cam and I think I would take the ford over it. That said the ford was a better thought out build. Stall converter stall speed, gearing in the rear to tire size and you're around 50 cid more.I guess part of what I'm trying to preach is set up costs as well. Big dyno numbers are just that...The 427 was in a fairly heavy car, but had 3:00 gears , and despite the claimed stall converter rating it wasn't enough.The 460 based was in a heavier car 3:90 gears, and based off cam no need to think about the stall converter. Both cars had enough tire not to spin( slicks and drag radials) and yet both ran near identical times. Despite the gearing the advantage the chevy was turbo 350 and 10 bolt rear end, while the ford was c6 and 9 bolt rear end, wait what ...That's right the Ford was heavier and had more frictional drive train loss and was in a heavier car, and should have been making 50 to 100 less horsepower than the 427, but near the same outcome, and the ford didn't need some race gas
We are hunting down a early gen 460 to build since so many people have mentioned it and asked for it. Unfortunately they just aren't all that easy to scavenge up around Central Ohio for some reason. They definitely were built as low end torque machines from the factory and can for sure be built into a monster able to contented with ANY of these 4 so we agree, it needs to be built tested and talked about! No idea what we'll actually put the 460 in once it's built... but build it first then we'll figure that out ;)
I built my 400 Pontiac out of my 1967 Pontic 400 with a ram air 5 cam put three deuce with a three two barrel carbs and drill all jet to one quarter inch my 67 heads were milled so far I was told that’s it for these heads so I port matched intakes and exhaust by using machinery blueing and it would break a set of 50s loose at 130 mph
@@LucoreAuto I bought this car actually completed and I just went through the binder that came with it. The block was bored 30 over. These are the orginal heads from the 69 455 ported and polished. Previous owner did a lot to this car. Th350 trans with kick down delete. I hate the rear gearing though since no overdrive he placed the rears at 2.78. I also just completed a 87 grandnational. stock rotating assembly. Te 60 turbo, rebuilt 200r4 trans with extra gears in 3 and 4th gears. alcohol injection, 60lb injectors, new valve springs, 3inch down pipe, cat replaced with test pipe, 2.5 pypes exhaust, hotwire fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator. Low 12s to high eleven with bost at 20psi. A mild build. Next up 1992 gmc typhoon. Already built but having problems with the atr pitbull chip. Its either the chip or an electric issue as the 4.3 turbo charged are known yo have electric systems issues. i replacement the ignition control module ran great for 1 month and then hard starting, then no starting. I spend an ungodly amount of money on the GN. I hope the typhoon is more forgivening.
you need to look at a olds 403. had one in a Buick regal when I wan in high school. about the time the mustang 5.0 came out was blowing there doors off .
Props to that big Indian. Didn't take much to wake those things right up. I had a 1974 Formula 455. 250 net hp. Did a full rebuild of that thing and it really carried the mail afterward. Mild cam with a set of cleaned up #13 heads to bring up the compression ratio and increase valve size. 13.02 on street tires while spinning them through 60ft. Daily driver with some serious giddy-up.
Thank you so much for this HONEST video that wasn't slanted to one side. I'm a diehard MOPAR man so I was happy to see the 451 build. I have an all stock, never restored 1974 Charger SE with a 400 4bbl in it. You gave me some pretty good ideas to think about...🤔🤔😎💯
Well thank you for the comment Sir, very glad you enjoyed the video and hopefully learned a thing or two! We tried to be as honest and up front as we could be about each of the builds, we all have our favorites of course so it's hard to be completely impartial. That 451 Mopar setup is a really good package and with a decent set of aluminum heads on it...yeah we'll see not too far down the road I'm sure ;)
Here we go again, big block Pontiac, come-on now. External block dimensions the same. The 301 had 3/4" shorter deck height than the 326,350,389,400.421,428 and455.. Their is no small block/ big block, there is a small journal/large journal blocks. The heads will all bolt on, there's oiling issues on early poncho, where the top end gets oiling through block and heads,oil ports instead of the lifters and push rods. But as far as big/small blocks, I don't see it, just FYI...🤔👍
Thank you! We tried our best to make them semi comparable and to be as above board as possible with what wasn't. Unfortunately we don't make enough money off TH-cam to just build 5 identical big blocks for no reason 😉
What do you recommend for a 427 11-1 pistons and a muther thumper hydrollic roller cam big block for aftermarket heads for street/ strip auto shows should I go with rectangular port or oval port
The 400 into a 461 is a GREAT setup and honestly, even better than a 455 into the same displacement. There will be one of those in our very near future as well. Easily able to make this level of power or more.
Big thumbs up. I really liked this BUT I hate the fact that you compared a 454 with High Performance heads to a Pontiac with poor flowing smog heads. Some BBC fanboys already have huge heads that don't need to get puffed up more by lopsided comparisons. The last BBC guy I raced talked all kinds of smack about my 400 Pontiac until I showed up to race him. He had more modifications than I had and better heads and he still refused to race me heads up without using his Nitrous. He still lost even with a 150 shot against my NA.
Well thanks for the view, the comment, and the thumbs up! Unfortunately this was a situation of "run what ya brung" as we had this 454 already going through a mild rebuild and figured it would be useful data. With that in mind, we still think the Poncho out punched the Chevy when you see what it did. Given the heads on the Chevy were considerably superior AND it had a roller setup... imagine what the Pontiac would do with those heads worked a little, and a full roller setup. Very likely would have not only out torqued the Chevy but out HP'd it as well. At least, that's our opinion :)
@@LucoreAuto, I totally understand. Let the BBC fanboys keep their superiority complex. I love to see them pay up every time they underestimate a Pontiac.
Unfortunately we didn't have one for building and testing purposes BUT, we will be testing a Buick 455 Stage 1 here shortly and will post it once we do!
Great comparison. I am a Pontiac guy all the way. I am also a Ford guy and would liked to have seen a FE block represented....but you gotta have one to run one. I have a standard bore '71 YC 455 Pontiac GTO motor that I have had sitting on the floor for about 25 years and plan on rebuilding it in the near future. I plan on running a 041 RAIV flat tappet cam with Rhoads lifters, roller rockers and either a set of ported #64 or #96 heads. I will be using a factory cast iron intake with a Cliff Ruggles-influenced Quadrajet. Not looking for anything wild but it should be a good runner one day.
Hey nothing wrong with being an Olds guy! The Mopar was definitely hobbled in this test, it had by far the worst heads and the machinist didn't really understand what the issues were. Had it been able to RPM properly and not hit valve float at 4900 RPM, it should have spun easily past 5500 and would have made a good deal more HP. Unfortunately, we'll have to fix that when it's IN the car
I absolutely am a Pontiac guy tried and true also! My 64 GTO 389 with 421 tri-power heads on it is almost unbeatable in a quarter mile all bone stock motor with 390 rear limited slip and a m22 Rock crusher putting it to the back it basically pulls the tires off the ground when you hit second gear.. I am starting to like your sessions more and more as I watch them, I also messed with AMC AMX's of the 1970 Donahue Special type with 390 ci. 4 spd, & up to 3 second gen Javelins 2 being AMX's, one with a 360 a 72 model with a Pierre cardan rainbow interior and a 74 AMX 401 ci. with the same interiors. All of these AMC's would pull your face plum off out of the hole. But still I,,, being a poncho guy, had more fun and raced more Kawasaki's and won with my pure poncho 72 Formula 400/400 THM/3:08 posi. running 12:1 #16 head's milled 0.060 thsds... Had to run 101 octane,of course.. it was one bad black bird. Can't wait to see your LeMans when you can actually get both tires to hook up, at the track!!! Love you guys you crack me up!! You remind me of the good old days. Stay Greasy, I'll be watching!
This was a great concept and I'd love to see someone do a proper 45X engine comparison test BOPC would be great to see. But frankly as soon as you put the roller cam in the chevy and the aluminum heads on the olds the validity of your test went out the window, All 4 engines should have been running the same spec cam and they should have all been running iron heads. The pontiac version of Those speedmaster heads have been shown to flow every bit as good as the edelbrocks out of the box so I assume the olds are they same.
Thank you we tried hard to make this as honest and upfront as we could! Really love how the Mopar looks in its current paint scheme and it's going to looks AWESOME under the hood of her Charger for sure! There are a lot of things ahead for this 451 not too far down the road so we'll try to do right by you Mopar guys!
Finally have a spare set of cast iron water-jacketed marine exhaust manifolds on their way for the Olds, have been searching for a pair for well over a decade now.
You mentioned the LS' - my brother has an '09 Pontiac G8 - 6l all aluminum LS in a mid-sized 4 door sedan. 365 hp stock, he has put on exhaust, cold air intake and a chip. He now figures he's pushing 400 hp. The car has 340 000 km on it (!) That's 210 000 miles. The other day he had it at 250 km/hour (155 mph) and it will throw you back in the seat easily. So, yeah, "everyone" is running an LS, but they are FUN.
Oh they are DEFINITELY capable motors for sure, and there's a reason they are pretty much the kings of builds these days. They take a ton of abuse and keep right on roaring. What's interesting is if you look at the dyno graph on that LS, typically it's MUCH different than old school muscle. They make similar numbers but usually a considerably different curve.
TH-cam "451 stroker twin quad" from Nick's Garage, they made a ton of power of out a 451. The dual quad setup made less than the single 4bbl, but still more than this. I also have a stroker 400 but went up to 500 c.i.
Gotta say of all of these things that Mopar is the one we were impressed most with, and especially afterwards once we realized it was hobbled during the resting. Great setup for a motor
Can the bop 400 big blocks be done like the Mopar but put the 455 rotating assembly in the bottom end and make them a hell of a engine or is it even worth it though be done
@Dave Micolichek I checked our Edelbrock Big Block heads and they were great. We port matched the intake to the heads and were done. Still never a good idea to install anything without a good inspection.
I'm rooting for the Pontiac....im a Chevy guy now but my first hot rod had a Pontiac 400....so I have have a soft spot for good running Pontiac Motors.
We'll actually be starting a 400 Pontiac build here at the end of the year, need a new heart for a '68 LeMans project. The 400 is THE motor of choice to build from these days for Poncho people.
Question? I have a 66 Delta 88 which is the same as the F85 I'm building a 455 for. Will the cutlass headers work? Or should I just go with the stock manifolds?
Thanks Mike! We for sure had some surprises testing all these things. The Olds and Pontiac coming in with VERY similar peak HP numbers was quite interesting, especially considered the Torker vs Performer
Unfortunately the springs are being overpowered, definitely not an ideal situation. There's also an issue that the cheap SBI valves that were used in the rebuild are HEAVY compared to what would ideally be in there. Knowing the cast iron heads will only be on this motor for a reasonably short time as she gets used to the new setup and power levels, it just wasn't worth the money and frustration to keep fighting it.
Thank you for the watch and comment! We hear them as well and wish we could have included them in this test/video unfortunately there just aren't many people building BBF projects these days. Most people building hot rods or muscle cars with for power are doing 351 or 302 power, or if they're looking for speed and modern go Coyote. We're certainly open to building one for a customer though, there's definitely power and data to be found!
Interesting comparison, Thanks for doing it. Having said that I take issue with one of your conclusions, As a "Pontiac guy" myself I have to say there is no way that Olds parts are cheaper and or more readily available than Pontiac parts. There were literally millions of firebirds alone built with Pontiac engines, Never mind all the Lemans/GTO's Grand prix's Ventura's etc. Because there are so many of those F body's still out there the demand for Pontiac parts is still quite high and so WAY more stuff is available than for an Oldsmobile. Off the top of my head I can name 7 different companies just making cylinder heads for the Pontiac engine, and some have multiple variants. Butler even lists 5 different models of aftermarket block's! The same absolutely cannot be said of Oldsmobile, not by a longshot. In order of popularity and parts availability it would have to go Chevy, Mopar, Pontiac, and then Olds.
We Mopar guys use to put a 440 crank in the larger bore 400 block netting a 451 , Netting over 500ft lbs of torque " and pulled a 3800 lb car into the 12's 💥
The way this water pump is indexed it actually CAN'T be on the bottom, but typically speaking yes you are absolutely correct. There's a little shelf on the pump to move the fluid away from the belts instead of it falling straight down.
I would have liked to see a Ford 460 in this comparison. I assume the opportunity to do this comparison just happened to come up with those particular engines being built and ready for dyno at the same time. Great video.
You are pretty much spot on with this, we just happened to have multiple parallel projects moving forward at the same time with very similar builds. Unfortunate the Big Block Ford scene just isn't a popular option for hot rodding these days, at least not around us. We may still be able to eventually get our hands on one and move a build forward but... we'll see. Actually DO need to make another followup with this though to address things with the Mopar.
A lot of people are running the 451 mopar setup at the local track. They are running aluminum heads and a lot of compression. They run really well. I run a 440 that we built in 98 when I just got out of high school. I ran out of money on the build, so I didn't get to do all the tricks I wanted too. As it is, it has 906 cast heads with 2.19 intake valves, not sure of the size of exhaust valves. The compression is around 10.1 with a small flat tappet lunati cam,stock duel plain intake and vacuum secondary 750 Holley and headers. I wanted to port a little on the heads and do a aluminum head, but the money ran out. With 4.56 gears and stock stall converter,she still kept up with my buddies small block Chevy strokers,that they spent a ton of more money than me.
It seems like there are quite a few 451s still running at tracks but they all seem to have been built YEARS ago like 80s and 90s, doesn't seem to be too popular for the modern hot rodder. Which, honestly makes sense, given how easily and cheaply you can pick up the 499 stroker kits. Your 440 even as it sits should be a serious bruiser and able to make gobs of power without spinning it up into the revs like your Chevy buddies likely are. Ideally we would have used a set of 906 heads but for the couple hundred dollars we would have spent on buying them, then rebuilding them, it just didn't make sense. This lil 451 will definitely see some additional upgrades in the not so distant future...the story isn't over yet!
Definitely keep an eye on the 451 Mopar build, there are some recent vidoes of it as we sort out more and more with that build and it's REALLY waking up now! Already starting to pencil in the next version of that build ;)
We actually DO have a Buick 455 Stage 1 that's sitting in our '65 Buick GS, unfortunately that's a running and driving car it didn't make sense to pull the heart out of it just to test :( HOWEVER we WILL have that car on the chassis dyno here in a couple weeks which will absolutely film. Should be able to give us some strong numbers to compare with these 4.
@@AlexRamirez-lf1wj you're into Rivs huh!? Well definitely stay tuned, we actually have a couple of those sitting here waiting for their chance to show off ;) They are 63-64s and will be making appearances sometime in the very near future!
I have to admit a lot of the info went over my head but what I did understand was quite useful. Kinda figured the Chevy would be the hands down winner but I wont lie, I was rooting for the Mopar. =) Speaking of, I had *zero* clue you could make a 499 out of a 400, Hell I had never even heard of one. Hope y'all do one someday because I would love to see what kind of power that makes and what kind of reliability it would have.
Yeah being totally honest we had no idea there was so much potential in those "Junk smog" motors either. The old motor coming out of her car now will very likely come back to life with a 499 stroker kit in it... for... something. That 451 isn't done impressing yet there's a decent chance it goes back on an engine dyno for some improvements to the valve train which SHOULD allow it to RPM better
@@LucoreAuto I caught the valve float issue you were having there, heard it's a fairly common problem with some Mopar engines but I don't know the fix for it, wish I did. I do seem to recall a 360 that had the same problem and a Hi rise intake was at least part of the solution but that was 20 some years back... Let me see if I got this right... she has a 2nd 400 that yer going to (eventually) do the 499 kit on? Or when she outgrows the 451 do the kit? As I have mentioned I'm a hack mechanic at best (give me a proper manual and im good otherwise its the Braveheart scene with the crazed Irishman: 'The good Lord says yer fooked laddie!' and tools go airborne) but if she is already planning better aluminum heads wont she have to upgrade the valve train as well? And would that not likely solve the float issue? Asking because im curious if going that route might not save a bit of cash over tiring to fix the valve float problem in the long term.
Can we get a 472 or 500 caddy? The unsung/underdog of all big blocks. Stuffed afew into some camaros and firechickens over the years,made awesome drag cars. Haha
We are actually hunting for a buildable 500 Cadi since so many people have been asking for them, not quite as available as they used to be! Unfortunately lots of people were stuffing them into drag cars! ;) We may be setting up a 500 Cubic Inch battle for the somewhat near future sooooo we'll see what we can find!
Awesome..I can't wait. In the mid 70s to early 80s, people never thought about the big ol Cadillacs,mind you Cadillac never advertised their engine nunbers so it was always turned away... we used to go to wrecking yards and look for old caddy Limos or hearsts and rip out out the engines. Cheap horsepower and combined into lightweight car, toss on some headers and throw some timing at it, and off ya go. Fast, cheap horsepower back then, and the look on peoples faces when a crappy old Oldsmobile omega with a 472 caddy in it smokes their brand new Buick GN.. hahah
@@mikehunt9894 It's definitely the ultimate in large motor in a small package stuffing the powerplant out of a land barge into something.. well anything that wasn't barely able to fit in a garage. Unfortunately the days of easily finding those monsters are over so we are going to be a bit more out of pocket to pick one up. THEN we have to figure out what they heck to put it in!
For sure and we would love to have included one, unfortunately no one really does hot rod Big Block Fords around here. These were all motors for projects we had so could use them for the video, some day we hope to include a BBF as well!
For the NEXT Motor we build for her ride there's a VERY good chance we go into the 500+ CI range, for essentially the same cost of a 451 why wouldn't you? Some nice aluminum heads will DEFINITELY be down the road just a little bit. Once the motor is in the car and she's had some seat time to get used to it... there's a lot of power trapped in these old crappy cast irons!
Ya might find it on TH-cam called “Hot Rod Garage” or the Motortrend On Demand App. They did a 512 Stroker in a 66 Plymouth Fury wagon it’s awesome a must watch.
@@eddiepatterson5025 problem with really going over the top on a build like that is everything ELSE has to be big and bad too. Transmission, suspension, brakes... you start making 600+ horsepower and the factory stuff or slightly upgraded stuff just won't work anymore
We tested one on a chassis dyno right after this, just didn't have one out of a car to include in a head to head engine dyno contest. Definitely give that a watch!
Stumbled upon this video. I’ve been an Oldsmobile guy since I was a teenager and I am 54. I do love all of these engines and I play with Pontiacs as well. Just about everything you said is true cost parts etc. Oldsmobile”s are a little more pricier than you said but you hit their troubles pretty much on with the oil system. I think if you used the performer RPM intake the torque would’ve been very close to the Pontiac and Chevy. Curious if you would like to divulge some of the specs on the camshaft. And on the Oldsmobile did you switch the stock tower rocker system for an adjustable roller rocker system?
We are definitely curious what difference an intake swap on the Olds would have done, especially considering all the machine shop trickery inside the Pontiac. That the Olds is within striking distance.. it really makes for some interesting thoughts. The Olds cam card we posted on our Instagram if you look for LucoreRacing on there you'll find it.
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing I went there. That is one step below make cam. I have the 22 Dash25 on a 110 lobe separation angle because originally I was running power brakes. That cam originally was ground with a 108 and Joe added a 110 for power brakes. I put my engine together in 1993. It’s a 1967 400 that is now 411 in.³ and 10.4 to 1 compression with heavily ported sea heads andA lot of low end machine work. When I had a torque or intake on it, that engine hit 7000 RPMs a couple of times. No I am not lying I’ve had a couple friends witness it
@@DMR67442 the cam certainly isn't overly rowdy, it's meant for a '65 Olds F-85 that's just going to be a cruiser and street bruiser. Occasional blasts down the track may happen but it's more just for fun and daily driveavle hotrod duties. Spinning one of these big old machines up past 5600 or so gets a little worrisome especially on rods that are... 45-50+ years old. Now with that said there IS a chance we do a little head work on this aluminum chunks and maybe throw a little juice or boost at it down the line... we'll see! ;)
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing That was an excellent choice for a camshaft. Especially if it’s an automatic car. My 67442 convertible is a four-speed with 410 gears
Hey I got a problem and was wondering if you could help. I got an 84 Chevy 3/4 ton with a 454. I put some 3" headers with a mild cam (224/230) and I keep cracking my water pump along the necks when I open it up. Any thoughts?
The 74 400 block is a better choice for a stroker the earlier block has stronger mains supports and you would make more power with the 400 heads with some minor port work 500 lb plus is easily achieved a set of trick flow or indy heads would put it in orbit stroker b engines have nearly insane power capability
There's definitely power left on the table in that Mopar once it swaps over to a good set of aluminum heads it'll be a whole new monster. For now though, it will be a HUGE change over the tired old 400 in there now! But, that old tired one will likely live again some day as a 499 ;)
We honestly don't have many BBF powered hot rodders around Central Ohio, BUT since so many have been asking for it currently hunting for a 460 to build
I recently did a 400 block with a 4.25 stroke which made it a 512 cuin engine I use the 270 trick flow heads and a roller cam by Bullet that was around 265 duration at .050 lift, it was Dynoed at West Tech and it made 700 horsepower The stroker kit came from 440 source and it yielded 10.3 to 1 compression ratio, the dyno pull was done with 91 octane fuel
That's a VERY good and powerful setup and likely only cost a tiny bit more than the 451 Mopar in this video. The 400 is a VERY impressive platform for power without getting into anything super crazy or complicated. Did you record or detail your build anywhere? Who's stroker kit did you use?
yeah good luck finding them. I had a 1972 years ago It had some good get up and go for the tank it was in. I wanted to swap it into my Monte Carlo, but didn't have the skills at the time.
What I am building is a 470 RB MoPar 10.5:1 compression with Trick Flow heads, roller cam and a tunnel ram with 2 750 Mighty Demons. I have a JW 727reverse manual valve body trans, 8" 4000 stall JW converter and a 4.10 Dana 60. Just a street car :)
Lol yup sounds like just a mild mannered street car right there! Tach goes one way, fuel gauge goes the other, and a smile grows on your face rapidly! ;) The RB stuff topped with some good flowing heads is ALWAYS a great formula for major power. God be with those rear tires.
It certainly sounds good, and I can't WAIT to get it back in the '70 LeMans to hear it rumbling through some pipes! Non-Car people just don't get it, sound is IMPORTANT!
Every comment on this video:
“Where’s the (insert either rare one off or wrong year span engine here)?”
My question is:
Where’s the Pontiac 301 dude? This test is bogus unsubscribed worst entertainment video ever
Where’s the Buick nailhead or Pontiac super duty or ford flathead or big block Packard! I’m so angry at you for not putting these totally weird engines that nobody builds on the dyno!
Hahaha, YOU win the comments section so far! Thank you for that :)
In all honesty... I hate to say this but there IS a 425 Nailhead in the works ;)
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing admittedly the nailhead is a great engine. Have a 401 in my 66 Electra and that thing gives me perspective on these big blocks in that all of them were made for different purposes. The nailhead and the big block Buick being built for low, effortless torque for a quiet, luxurious ride and not much else. I mean 6000 rpm with stock bottom end and you have a grenade waiting to go off, whereas the big block Chevrolet was designed for nascar to an extent lol. Makes me wonder why people wanna say which is best when these engines all come from car companies having different needs for an engine.
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing plus all of the people that shout about these niche engines miss the point. A nailhead is a wrong generation engine compared to all the big blocks you have in this video. It’s older 1950’s technology whereas all the big blocks in your video were all contemporaries. Plus I’ve seen requests for ultra rare engines like side oilers and other strange one off things like they’re part of the argument at all lol. You’re not picking up a super cobra jet in a junkyard.
All iron head shootout as the Oldsmobile sits there with a set of aluminum heads on it lol.
Hey there's close to Iron Headed! ;)
@@LucoreAuto lol, ok. Good vid though. As you know, it doesn't matter how hard you try at parity, somebody's going to complain that well, you should've done this with the Mopar, or its not fair you did this with the poncho ect, ect. I'm admittedly a big block Chevrolet guy but have respect for all of them as they all have their good points and bad ones if you are honest with yourself. The trick is to know your chosen engine family very well and know what parts combinations work well together, even if factory and it can be quite amazing how much power any if them will make for not a huge $ outlay. I put together a 0.030 over 440 for a good friend of mine for his wheelin rig, 10.68 to 1 trw pistons, Edelbrock performer heads and intake, crane gold roller rockers, comp solid flat tappet cam, factory rods with arp bolts and balanced with a factory steel crank. It will wind 6500 against his rev limiter all day long and even doesn't mind an occasional 300 hit of gas. Makes incredible power even na on pump gas and is a reliable great engine.
@@johnasbach577 You are VERY correct Sir, unless we just had a spare $40,000 sitting around to build 4-5 identical big blocks across the brands you'll never get true Apples to Apples... to Apples and Apples ;) But, we tried!
One of the things that made us want to put this video together for folks was to really put it all out there across a few of the major brands. We all have our loyalties but let's have an honest conversation about what they do what they can do and what they cost!
The 451 Mopar I'll be honest will be a good motor for now in her '73 Charger but I think down the line with a head swap and a few more additions will become quite a monster. And with the prices Mopar folks can get GOOD aluminum heads?! Not fair! *cries the Pontiac guy*
@@LucoreAuto lol, yep. Very true that yes, anything can make gobs of power if you have unlimited amounts of $ to throw at it but most of us are not in that category and have to make due with what we can afford. But that's part of the fun in gaining knowledge of the parts readily available that work well together and those that will compromise your build. And really in this day and age none of us have any excuses in putting together something that is a poor build, or combination, because of so many before us who did all the hard work and research that is now at our fingertips with the click of a mouse. I think another thing that gets people in this game is the trap of unrealistic expectations of the combination that they have/can afford. As you know, every engine combination is a compromise, unfortunately lol!
Well, keep at it, is nice to see info from honest fair minded people with no axe to grind and as a bonus we all learn a little something 👍👍!
What about the 455 Buick
Unfortunately we didn't have any customers currently building a 455 Buick BUT, we DO have a 455 Stage 1 we will be running on a chassis dyno in the next few days that should give us some numbers to compare with!
Was quickest from the factory
Jim Clarke yes it was I had 1970 Buick stage 1 with the 455 I really miss that car it was stolen back in 1995 I never seen it again 😫
How about a 421Pontiac Super Duty with dual 850 cfm Rochesters. And a mid rise intake with long tube headers ? Bootleggers deluxe baby!!!
@@walliehart5975 There is a YT video comparing a 405 HP 421 Pontiac to a 409HP 409 Chevy. Pontiac completely murders the Chevy on the dyno.
I'm Rooting for the Pontiac!!!
I bet that Olds would’ve topped 500ftlbs with a dual plane. Cool video. I’m an Olds guy but those Mopars are growing on me! They sound incredible and have just a ton of potential.
We talked about that quite a bit afterwards, a lot of "what if" scenarios. The Olds definitely had some power left in the tank with a few small things changed, obviously so did the Mopar.
It can be a little maddening :) At the end of the day though in a cruising fun car do any of them REALLY need 500+ torque? Street tires already hate how they get treated ;)
@Dave Micolichek oh we complete agree it's fun on the street :) Well, the tires don't really enjoy it and do a lot of complaining, but it's fun! ;)
@Dave Micolichek your Sir, have a VERY serious case of Big Block Addiction! Sounds like you certainly have some fun with your toys too, much better way to enjoy them than just sitting in the garage
@Dave Micolichek literally all you have to do is type "dyno explosion or failure" in the yt search bar to see plenty of proof.
Dave Micolichek can’t avoid the fact that he said 510 foot pounds with a 2 barrel like a Rochester 2g can even put out 300 lol
Removed a 455 Olds from a 1969 Delta and installed it in my 1972 Cutlass.
Engine was all stock.
Car would fry the tires for a half a block.
Mega torque monster.
We pulled one from a 71 delta 88 and freshened it and put in a 79 trans am. The motor was in the junkyard compleatly fresh from someone else's with a cam lobe beat down. We cleaned and put new gaskets and a crane powermax cam and it would completely shred tires even with the single plain holley street dominator intake that was all wrong for the engine lol
These motors weren't GREAT at making gobs of power into the higher revs, OR getting very good or even kind of good fuel economy... BUT they were GREAT at making lots of low end low RPM piles of tire melting torque. All of these motors are making north of 350+ torque at 2,000 RPM which is more than enough to break traction on anything but some serious sticky tires.
Alright we'll forgive you the putting an Olds in a TransAm but you're on shaky ground there Andy! ;) The old days of being able to find these things by the dozens sitting around in junk yards just waiting to be reborn are gone unfortunately but there are LOT of tales like this! Go get motor from yard, spend a couple hundred bucks fixing things, drop into smaller/lighter chassis, and run 11s! ;)
@@LucoreAuto well it's kinda forgivable if it came with an olds engine when new. Right? Lol
@@midsouth2strokes185 KINDA forgivable but still feels awkward!
I'm 60 now, love these video's full of information to questions we had when we were younger. I am am a Pontiac fan since about 11 years old. This video is full of information for young guys wanting to build a motor. An awesome comparison and know you can pretty much build any motor. So just have fun.
This was a GREAT shootout, thank you!
I had my Olds 455 gone through and balanced about 30 years ago, cost was about $1500 including a core b/c my block and heads were toast, unfortunately. Probably have over 200 Pulls on it now and maybe 50 hours, runs like a top with a Thermoquad on top.
I'm gonna go out and hug it now, lol.
Prices have gone up a bit on these things over the past 30 years for sure! ;) Thanks for the view and comment, we are glad to finally have gotten this video together and tried to be as honest and up front as we could be about the strengths and details of each build. We know we won't probably be making people change teams, but at least maybe they'll learn a little bit more about "The Other Guys"!
My Olds moto was toast I had work done on it lot of work cross drilling for oil aline honed & bore decking I did the port and polish before the motor went out for work same with block work.. de-burr all the casting flashing in center Gally oil restrictors valve rotators installed ran like a bat out of hell...over 500 h.p. but when I built my Olds the machine work and assembly cost me $3,600. Back in 1990
@@peterrivney552 I go pretty easy on mine actually, WOT pulls are maybe 10 sec. and I keep it under 4500 most of the time. Probably why it's been trouble free.
I'm not sure if the machinist cleaned up drainbacks, no doubt flow restrictors weren't done. It's a pulling HOSS though, I don't consider or treat it like a race engine.
Picking up a 455 Oldsmobile engine in a 66 stepside chevy C10 this morning. Paid $1000 for it and the engine starts😊
@@harleytrott2335 I hope it's in good shape, I keep the revs to around 4500 to make sure there's enough oil in my 7qt pan. If you rebuild it, try to open up the drainback holes in the heads. I didn't know about this when I had mine rebuilt and there's a couple times when I think oil pressure began to fade. My solution has been to keep the oil level to top of dipstick mark and keep the revs reasonable.
Does yours have a th400 or is it a manual trans?
I have a built Pontiac 455 in my Firebird and you're right, it's easy to be 10 to 15 k into it before you know it, but I wouldn't swap it for nothing.
It really REALLY is. Especially if you go the aluminum head route you're there in no time. But, when I pop the hood of an old classic Pontiac I want to see a light blue Poncho motor staring back at me!
I got over 10K in my 455 in my 73’ formula 455
I love the oldsmobile, I have a 70 455, nobody i know has had any luck with the tourqer intake on BB olds, seams to like a performer duel plane, or offenhauser portosonic single plane, Victor's have also had some success with solid numbers, thankyou for the review.
It would honestly have been nice to have a Performer on the Olds compared to the Torker, it doesn't seem to have really done any favors for it. With the power levels and RPM levels we are running on these motors, it's hard to beat the performance and driveability of a good duel plane.
Thanks for the view and comment, hope you enjoyed!
I put a olds 455 into a 1966 cutlass 510 ft pounds torque from factory , couldn't keep back tires on her..... smile for days
You DO rapidly get into a conversation of how much power can you actually use, and especially with a street tire 😉
There's most certainly a value to "smiles per gallon"!
Technically, Pontiac wasn't really a big block.... They just have large same displacement..
Pontiac was an in between a small block & big block Chevy. The great thing about Pontiac that a 326 cu & a 455 the block has the same dimensions on the outside. That's the beauty of Pontiac. You can't do that with Buick or Olds. But there also great motors just like Mopar & Ford.
You are correct Mike, I didn't go into that on the video but figured it was still something fair to compare.
@@fireballrobbie1744 definitely one of the more interesting parts of Pontiac design. Though also makes it hard ti tell exactly what you have unless you crawl under and look at the block stamp. Ask me if I've ever been screwed by THAT! ;)
All Pontiac are big block, technically.
Technically, Pontiac wasn't really a small block either. They designed the engine very well from the start, to go from 262 ci all the way to 455 ci, with small displacement having a lower deck height and larger displacement having higher deck height, the Pontiac V8 qualifies as both. Really, the only drawback is the head design, but most engines were using wedge heads at the time, and they are one of the better wedge heads of the period.
A big Block Ford would have been a nice addition. The 429/460 engines are pretty stout and have as much potential on a tight budget
We are actually actively searching for a 460 to build since so many people have asked for it. While they have tons of potential we honestly don't have many BBF powered hot rods that run around the Central Ohio area. Over the entire 3+ years we did these 4 motors we had not 1 BBF customer needing a rebuild. But since so many people are asking for it... we're hunting for one ;)
Boat anchors
@@stewpidasso8810 - didn’t the bbf dominate in NHRA and IHRA pro stock ? Wonder what that says about the other big blocks then. You clown
@@LucoreAuto if you're offering I can get you a 460 in a 19 foot jet boat. That's kind of a screwy hybrid application though.
BBF can easily hit 450 hp and 500 ft of torque….probably why the ford wasn’t used …would have spanked them all..lol
pontiac always growls different than other engines !!!
As a Pontiac guy myself, I was VERY pleased with the sounds that thing makes and the numbers it made. Unfortunately, that Pontiac tax is REAL!
Really looking forward to having it in the car and seeing how it actually performs.
Yessss sirrrr Pontiac all the way I think it’s obv that I’m a Pontiac guy😂😂
I have an ex-brother-in-law whom him and his father ran a salvage yard. They hauling in a four door Pontiac with what looked like a plain Jane 400 small block. It had a two barrel on it. Somebody had to been building a sleeper and either their old lady or some idiot decided it was time it got towed. But it would rip them loose only at half throttle. 🔥
As an oldsmobile guy, Olds always sound different then the rest.. that big bore, short stroke ftw.. lol
@@mikehunt9894 It's not about the size of the motor, but the power of the stroke! ;)
Pontiac didnt make a big block or a small block. They're all the same size. Should of called it big cubes showdown. Great video! Thanks for the content
Yes yes we Pontiac folks always bring this up ;) Unfortunately if we want to play in a class with others, we have to sign up for the Big Block Class so that's just the rules we went with! :)
Glad you enjoyed the video and we very much appreciate the view! We'll have the 455 Buick Stage 1 on a dyno here soon as well so we can let the OTHER member of the BOP family shine!
They sort of did, they used two different deck heights, but that's the only difference, so it doesn't really count.
dont need to be technical over crumbs
@@marioncobaretti2280 as Poncho folks we ALWAYS have to bring it up on conversation, it's like our secret club handshake. If you don't know, then you aren't REALLY a Pontiac person ;)
@@LucoreAuto The 455 Pontiac has more similarity to the 400 Chevy small block than to a big block Chevy. Canted valves and worked heads on a blueprinted crate motor is not fair on a dyno, but is much more fair comparing them going down the street 1/4 mile. I would rather you had taken a 400 RA IV or II if it was going to be a dyno evaluation.
I'm late to the party, but really good shoot out! I was really hoping for a Buick 455, but I definitely appreciate what you have done.
Glad you liked it. We DID test a Buick 455 right after this however it was alresdy in a Buick GS. Should be able to find it in our stuff on here. It did... well 😀
Wow that Pontiac sounds like it would leave the ground ,I'm a Mopar and Pontiac man and that poncho sound was music!
It's hard to witness the dramatic emotions of some people here. My goodness. You cannot even compare 4 big block engines without some people pining over their preferences being left out and practically crying on their monitors about it. We're on a big block musclecar guy video where some can't hide their inner child.
I felt that Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing did an exceptional job here to detail these intricacies and specifics. Highly educational. It was worth the three years in the making. Thank you.
Built 505 Pontiac pump gas motor, made 860 hp, but could’ve built BBC 1050 hp pump gas motor for 1/2 then Pontiac. You have to be a diehard Pontiac guy to spend almost twice as much and make 200 less hp. Its in Pro Street 70 GTO.
Yeahhhh that's just the price you pay to be a part of the Cool Kids Pontiac world ;) BUT, it's great to see something that's not a BBC/SBC when you pop the hood of a hotrod.
What's about the 460 Ford engine?
Unfortunately we literally don't have a SINGLE customer in the past 4 years that's built or worked on a 460 Ford or we absolutely would have included that! We'll keep an eye out though for one to show off in the future :)
I was going to ask the same thing. I guess he doesn’t have many ford customers
@@droppedf100 oddly we really don't. We do a TON of classic work but can count the number of BBF powered vehicles on one hand. Just not a very popular power plant for Central Ohio hotrods I guess :(
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing too bad. I just put together a std. 2 bolt block, 521 cubes, 290 TFS heads, 600 lift flat tappet cam. An easy 550 crank hp for $5k.
@@LucoreAuto Ofcourse U Guys Don't Have Any Ford Blocks There... Seems Like U Guys Just Work On Chevys.. No Ford Guy Would Want To Take It There lol
I had twin Olds 455s in my 32 foot Donzi, that puppy moved quite well
Big Block power did and still DOES power a TON of go fast boats. Low RPM torque is what boating is ALL about!
I have a 455 in a jet boat. It’s freshly mildly built. The old one made great power despite having a oil pan full of metal chips and lots of other problems. Whole cost for rebuilding to about 400 hp was 3,000. Pretty cheap.
455 what? The advantage of this many cubes on making the quest for 400hp, just make it spin and breathe and it will get there :)
It’s a 455 olds
@@LucoreAuto 5500 to many rpms for a 455
Got it in boat keeps braking rods
@@martywennihan5572 I have a 70 sidewinder jetboat....455 ...I run it at 5500 all day long..after I setup the crankcase scavenging system..does not use oil..does not smoke..msd ignition is set to redline at 5500... Berkeley 12jg pump..
AA impeller..place diverter..Holley 850 DP.
Torquer intake...I've run this engine for 5 years..no problems...
The 451 and 511 B versions I have been building since I was 15 for my father .
Idles nice but listening to it ramp up I can hear the tension it has then the fatal decrease of rpm.
Those heads weren’t the issue , the springs certainly are.
Stage V heads would be phenomenal but unnecessary, needing a little massaging , but yes could have suffered some . There a lot of options, knowing especially having built F.A.S.T racing engines in the past , if you slapped on a set of closed chamber heads (properly with matching springs and of which the quench area of those Icon pistons were developed for ) would bring you over 500 hp and even greater than 500lbs of torque.
I would love to have that engine in my hands . I have something similar, with a TM6 manifold, closed chamber and it’s pissing all over the numbers of that 454.
Not bragging , just touching base for anyone wanting to build one and display greater what that engine is capable of . My 511 version is over 700 hp.
Definitely appreciate the comment and Mopar knowledge, hopefully you've watched the more recent videos on the 451 Mopar as some of these issues were sorted out. Unfortunately it was definitely hobbled in the Big Blow Wars contest!
And the Mopar is much easier to work on and more durable than the GM stuff. Shaft rockers, dry intake, external oil pump, 2 piece water pump/housing, factory windage tray, distributor up front...
Excellent builds and comparison. Like Pontiac too but also really like the potential power/cost of the Mopar.
Found the channel by accident - I was quite impressed by the even-handed evaluation.
I'm a Mopar fan (due to an incident with a 90 000 mile "badly out of tune" 69 Charger 440 Magnum 40 years ago) but frankly I would be delighted with any of those engines.
Well welcome, glad you enjoyed the video! We tried to be as fair and honest as we could be, any time you have 4 big brands battling it out there's always plenty of mud slinging!
As a Mopar guy, is the 451 you had heard much of anything about? Seems like it was more of an oldschool setup than what people see these days. If you are interested btw, we have the entire build up of that motor here on our channel in the Momma's Mopar playlist. Welcome aboard!
You peaked my interest. Please tell me about this incident? lol
The 425 Olds is a way better engine than the 455. The 455 like the 68-69 400 is under square and a wheezy up on top. The 65-67 400-425 ( over square) were awesome runners and steel cranks.
Valid point! Especially with modern builds wanting to twist higher into the rev range versus low end torque monsters.
the 400 pontiacs are over square. 4.12''x3.75''
The bore on a stock Olds 455 is 4.125 with a 4.25 stroke. How is that not square???????
The Mopar 452 heads don't have the raises floor or hump before the intake valve. Like the 906 or closed chamber 915
That olds made decent power considering the junk speed pro pistons with high tension rings. Those speedmaster heads actually cc out at 84. With those slugs and a felpro head gasket, you would be lucky to hit 9:1. Left an easy (and cheap) 100hp in the olds. Needs a set of srp or cp bulltet pistons (not $$). They're are many stock olds heads that flow better than the speedmaster so don't consider that an advantage lol.
You are definitely understanding what I was trying to get across in the video that the speedmaster heads weren't doing this thing any major favors. Aside from weighing less and handling heat better, they really are no better than a GOOD cast iron Olds head. But we would have had more money on buying a good set of Olds heads having them rebuilt and ready to run than what we had in the Speedmasters so... it is what it is.
There's definitely some power left in that Olds for sure, as honestly there is across the board. None of these were really built for big power numbers more of a "what does stock stuff in stock form make". A little bit of port work on those heads, bumping the compression up, better pistons, a better intake, and that Olds would have certainly seen a serious bump in power BUT... that would be a different episode ;) Plus, when you start making considerably more power up front, you've got to upgrade everything in the middle and out back or things go BOOM! :)
Hopefully you enjoyed the video, we'll do our best to keep more of this kind of content coming!
The air flow of those heads may not have added 100 HP even with a compression ratio boost... but add some porting...
I have wanted to Make many comments on the video. As having built all of these engines and many more. I would agree with the power and part used on the Olds.
But as this video is set up, horsepower on a budget build. I would say it was pretty good.
I would agree that there are much beer parts that would build more power, but would cost a lot more.
The guy got a great find on this engine and is a decent build for the street.
a heads i'm having rebuilt right now
Thanks for the hard work like the shoot out and nice to see no losers! It all in what you prefer
Thanks for watching glad you enjoyed the video! There were no losers but some pretty interesting winners and results we think.
There's some stroker kits for the mopar 400 that makes it a 512, you don't have to grind down a 440 crank, they bolt right in and run great, them 400s got that huge bore so fitting cubes in them are pretty easy nowdays
There are for sure a TON of options for stroker kits on both the B and RB series Mopar motors. In this case we were aiming to keep it as close to the other motors as possible for the purposes of this video. The NEXT one we build will likely be with an aftermarket rotating assembly somewhere in the 500 cubic inches or so. That and get rid of these crappy cast iron heads!
Loved this, great work. Seemed as fair as y'all could practically make it. Thanks!
Oh, please add a 460 Ford.
Thank you we appreciate that! Couldn't make it perfectly apples to apples but this was about as close as we could get.
@@jez_stephensanotherapex5921 we're actually trying to hunt down a project to do a 460 Ford in, oddly they just aren't very popular for hot rod people around here.
What about the ford 460? I think it it easily the best. I have one sitting in my garage....I don't know how to get it to your dyno, but I would let you run it .Dove heads with port work anyone can do, and stock valves reground, .040 over bored block so something like 472cid, comp cams extreme 262 kit . stock rods with arp bolts , but it is zero decked(For quench) and 10.0 compression. You can run a bit more compression on 91 when you have quench right, and of course that is just static compression, but the cam timing events keep it on the higher side for the dynamic compression also.I had a 12.5 compression 427 bbc with more cam and I think I would take the ford over it. That said the ford was a better thought out build. Stall converter stall speed, gearing in the rear to tire size and you're around 50 cid more.I guess part of what I'm trying to preach is set up costs as well. Big dyno numbers are just that...The 427 was in a fairly heavy car, but had 3:00 gears , and despite the claimed stall converter rating it wasn't enough.The 460 based was in a heavier car 3:90 gears, and based off cam no need to think about the stall converter. Both cars had enough tire not to spin( slicks and drag radials) and yet both ran near identical times. Despite the gearing the advantage the chevy was turbo 350 and 10 bolt rear end, while the ford was c6 and 9 bolt rear end, wait what ...That's right the Ford was heavier and had more frictional drive train loss and was in a heavier car, and should have been making 50 to 100 less horsepower than the 427, but near the same outcome, and the ford didn't need some race gas
We are hunting down a early gen 460 to build since so many people have mentioned it and asked for it. Unfortunately they just aren't all that easy to scavenge up around Central Ohio for some reason. They definitely were built as low end torque machines from the factory and can for sure be built into a monster able to contented with ANY of these 4 so we agree, it needs to be built tested and talked about! No idea what we'll actually put the 460 in once it's built... but build it first then we'll figure that out ;)
I built my 400 Pontiac out of my 1967 Pontic 400 with a ram air 5 cam put three deuce with a three two barrel carbs and drill all jet to one quarter inch my 67 heads were milled so far I was told that’s it for these heads so I port matched intakes and exhaust by using machinery blueing and it would break a set of 50s loose at 130 mph
I have a 442 tribute with a mondello roller rocker setup. Block is from a 1969 cutlass. 425hp and 518tq.
What did you do for heads? What did your displacement end up?
@@LucoreAuto I bought this car actually completed and I just went through the binder that came with it. The block was bored 30 over. These are the orginal heads from the 69 455 ported and polished. Previous owner did a lot to this car. Th350 trans with kick down delete. I hate the rear gearing though since no overdrive he placed the rears at 2.78. I also just completed a 87 grandnational. stock rotating assembly. Te 60 turbo, rebuilt 200r4 trans with extra gears in 3 and 4th gears. alcohol injection, 60lb injectors, new valve springs, 3inch down pipe, cat replaced with test pipe, 2.5 pypes exhaust, hotwire fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator. Low 12s to high eleven with bost at 20psi. A mild build. Next up 1992 gmc typhoon. Already built but having problems with the atr pitbull chip. Its either the chip or an electric issue as the 4.3 turbo charged are known yo have electric systems issues. i replacement the ignition control module ran great for 1 month and then hard starting, then no starting. I spend an ungodly amount of money on the GN. I hope the typhoon is more forgivening.
Most beautiful car in muscle car history
you need to look at a olds 403. had one in a Buick regal when I wan in high school. about the time the mustang 5.0 came out was blowing there doors off .
Props to that big Indian. Didn't take much to wake those things right up. I had a 1974 Formula 455. 250 net hp. Did a full rebuild of that thing and it really carried the mail afterward. Mild cam with a set of cleaned up #13 heads to bring up the compression ratio and increase valve size. 13.02 on street tires while spinning them through 60ft. Daily driver with some serious giddy-up.
Thank you so much for this HONEST video that wasn't slanted to one side. I'm a diehard MOPAR man so I was happy to see the 451 build. I have an all stock, never restored 1974 Charger SE with a 400 4bbl in it. You gave me some pretty good ideas to think about...🤔🤔😎💯
Well thank you for the comment Sir, very glad you enjoyed the video and hopefully learned a thing or two! We tried to be as honest and up front as we could be about each of the builds, we all have our favorites of course so it's hard to be completely impartial. That 451 Mopar setup is a really good package and with a decent set of aluminum heads on it...yeah we'll see not too far down the road I'm sure ;)
Here we go again, big block Pontiac, come-on now. External block dimensions the same. The 301 had 3/4" shorter deck height than the 326,350,389,400.421,428 and455.. Their is no small block/ big block, there is a small journal/large journal blocks. The heads will all bolt on, there's oiling issues on early poncho, where the top end gets oiling through block and heads,oil ports instead of the lifters and push rods. But as far as big/small blocks, I don't see it, just FYI...🤔👍
Love your ideas and I like Pontiac and Mopars as well. Thanks for your information and testing on these engines
Great video it's hard to have exactly the same parts nice to see close power between all the brands great video
Thank you! We tried our best to make them semi comparable and to be as above board as possible with what wasn't. Unfortunately we don't make enough money off TH-cam to just build 5 identical big blocks for no reason 😉
What do you recommend for a 427 11-1 pistons and a muther thumper hydrollic roller cam big block for aftermarket heads for street/ strip auto shows should I go with rectangular port or oval port
I built my 400 into a 461 stroker, very nice to see about what it may make. Very cool video !!
The 400 into a 461 is a GREAT setup and honestly, even better than a 455 into the same displacement. There will be one of those in our very near future as well. Easily able to make this level of power or more.
Big thumbs up. I really liked this BUT I hate the fact that you compared a 454 with High Performance heads to a Pontiac with poor flowing smog heads. Some BBC fanboys already have huge heads that don't need to get puffed up more by lopsided comparisons. The last BBC guy I raced talked all kinds of smack about my 400 Pontiac until I showed up to race him. He had more modifications than I had and better heads and he still refused to race me heads up without using his Nitrous. He still lost even with a 150 shot against my NA.
Well thanks for the view, the comment, and the thumbs up! Unfortunately this was a situation of "run what ya brung" as we had this 454 already going through a mild rebuild and figured it would be useful data. With that in mind, we still think the Poncho out punched the Chevy when you see what it did. Given the heads on the Chevy were considerably superior AND it had a roller setup... imagine what the Pontiac would do with those heads worked a little, and a full roller setup. Very likely would have not only out torqued the Chevy but out HP'd it as well. At least, that's our opinion :)
@@LucoreAuto, I totally understand. Let the BBC fanboys keep their superiority complex. I love to see them pay up every time they underestimate a Pontiac.
Dude! You missed the 455 Buick!!!
Unfortunately we didn't have one for building and testing purposes BUT, we will be testing a Buick 455 Stage 1 here shortly and will post it once we do!
Alright Buick guy! Video made just for you guys, goes live at 11:30am today!
Great comparison. I am a Pontiac guy all the way. I am also a Ford guy and would liked to have seen a FE block represented....but you gotta have one to run one. I have a standard bore '71 YC 455 Pontiac GTO motor that I have had sitting on the floor for about 25 years and plan on rebuilding it in the near future. I plan on running a 041 RAIV flat tappet cam with Rhoads lifters, roller rockers and either a set of ported #64 or #96 heads. I will be using a factory cast iron intake with a Cliff Ruggles-influenced Quadrajet. Not looking for anything wild but it should be a good runner one day.
I am that 455 Olds guy.... but that Mopar had my attention... always loved the old Mopars
Hey nothing wrong with being an Olds guy! The Mopar was definitely hobbled in this test, it had by far the worst heads and the machinist didn't really understand what the issues were. Had it been able to RPM properly and not hit valve float at 4900 RPM, it should have spun easily past 5500 and would have made a good deal more HP. Unfortunately, we'll have to fix that when it's IN the car
Why have the radiator hoses hooked up if ur not going to spin the water pump, either belt of electric drive??
You did a great job of taking on what is usually a suicide mission of asking “Which is best?” lol!
You speak the truth! Tried to be as fair and impartial as possible :)
I absolutely am a Pontiac guy tried and true also! My 64 GTO 389 with 421 tri-power heads on it is almost unbeatable in a quarter mile all bone stock motor with 390 rear limited slip and a m22 Rock crusher putting it to the back it basically pulls the tires off the ground when you hit second gear.. I am starting to like your sessions more and more as I watch them,
I also messed with AMC AMX's
of the 1970 Donahue Special
type with 390 ci. 4 spd, & up to 3 second gen Javelins 2 being AMX's, one with a 360 a 72 model with a Pierre cardan rainbow interior and a 74 AMX 401 ci. with the same interiors. All of these AMC's would pull your face plum off out of the hole. But still I,,, being a poncho guy, had more fun and raced more Kawasaki's and won with my pure poncho 72 Formula 400/400 THM/3:08 posi. running 12:1 #16 head's milled 0.060 thsds... Had to run 101 octane,of course.. it was one bad black bird. Can't wait to see your LeMans when you can actually get both tires to hook up, at the track!!! Love you guys you crack me up!! You remind me of the good old days. Stay Greasy, I'll be watching!
This was a great concept and I'd love to see someone do a proper 45X engine comparison test BOPC would be great to see. But frankly as soon as you put the roller cam in the chevy and the aluminum heads on the olds the validity of your test went out the window, All 4 engines should have been running the same spec cam and they should have all been running iron heads. The pontiac version of Those speedmaster heads have been shown to flow every bit as good as the edelbrocks out of the box so I assume the olds are they same.
ty for an HONEST opinion and the mopar looks great in its plum suite
Thank you we tried hard to make this as honest and upfront as we could! Really love how the Mopar looks in its current paint scheme and it's going to looks AWESOME under the hood of her Charger for sure!
There are a lot of things ahead for this 451 not too far down the road so we'll try to do right by you Mopar guys!
Pontiac is out of every comparison because its masterpiece :)
Rawr Poncho Power! :) Can't wait to get this thing back in the '70 and enjoy the difference! And then... start the '68 LeMans project! ;)
(Smile)
My 455 olds on my 69 442 none original motor with K heads ran like a dream. Had so much power and torq!
Finally have a spare set of cast iron water-jacketed marine exhaust manifolds on their way for the Olds, have been searching for a pair for well over a decade now.
Why does the Oldsmobile have oil running out of the valve cover during dyno run? Missing the oil fill cap?
The oil had been a little over filled and the breather cap was off during the run. Nothing to be worried about :)
You mentioned the LS' - my brother has an '09 Pontiac G8 - 6l all aluminum LS in a mid-sized 4 door sedan.
365 hp stock, he has put on exhaust, cold air intake and a chip. He now figures he's pushing 400 hp.
The car has 340 000 km on it (!) That's 210 000 miles. The other day he had it at 250 km/hour (155 mph) and it will throw you back in the seat easily.
So, yeah, "everyone" is running an LS, but they are FUN.
Oh they are DEFINITELY capable motors for sure, and there's a reason they are pretty much the kings of builds these days. They take a ton of abuse and keep right on roaring.
What's interesting is if you look at the dyno graph on that LS, typically it's MUCH different than old school muscle. They make similar numbers but usually a considerably different curve.
Very nice 455 I have a 400 pontiac motor with number 62 heads runs great
Even among gear heads there seems to be some "question " on is it a big block or small block.
Great video, though. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed! And as gear heads, isn't our favorite thing to do argue? ;)
What kind of distributer is in the mopar engine?
All of them are running MSD Billet Distributors
@@LucoreAuto thanks for the info
@@brandonfults4827 very welcome thanks for the view and comment!
Love my 454 in my 1984 1/2 ton square body!!! LOTS OF FUN BURNOUTS 😎 Chevy power 👍
Hard to hate on the easy to build easy to use power of the 454 Chevy. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon or rich man to make them real tire killers!
The square bodies seem to look better & better as the years go by. I always love it when I see a well-kept one on the road. The Fords too!
TH-cam "451 stroker twin quad" from Nick's Garage, they made a ton of power of out a 451. The dual quad setup made less than the single 4bbl, but still more than this. I also have a stroker 400 but went up to 500 c.i.
I'm a Mopar guy. I'll take the 451 every time.
Gotta say of all of these things that Mopar is the one we were impressed most with, and especially afterwards once we realized it was hobbled during the resting. Great setup for a motor
Can the bop 400 big blocks be done like the Mopar but put the 455 rotating assembly in the bottom end and make them a hell of a engine or is it even worth it though be done
you dont run aluminum heads "out of the box",especially pro comps
Oh you can be certain MANY people do, though it's certainly not advised.
@Austin Carlson yeah you build engines.
thanks for the warning
@Dave Micolichek I checked our Edelbrock Big Block heads and they were great. We port matched the intake to the heads and were done. Still never a good idea to install anything without a good inspection.
whats the damn oint of buying them assembled then? full of metal, shitty valve springs, etc....and people pay more?
So if you wanted to swap a pontiac with an olds would it be able to fit. Or are there slight differences in engine width and size?
455olds hail to the king
There are a few things in store for that Olds project not far down the line ;)
Tell me how you 9.5to1 compression with 6x8 heads. My 455 thats .040 over with 6x8 heads has 8.5 to 1. compression.
I'm rooting for the Pontiac....im a Chevy guy now but my first hot rod had a Pontiac 400....so I have have a soft spot for good running Pontiac Motors.
We'll actually be starting a 400 Pontiac build here at the end of the year, need a new heart for a '68 LeMans project. The 400 is THE motor of choice to build from these days for Poncho people.
Question? I have a 66 Delta 88 which is the same as the F85 I'm building a 455 for. Will the cutlass headers work? Or should I just go with the stock manifolds?
Great video, keep up the great work!
Thank you, we'll do our best! You'll see all sorts of projects and things we work on hope you enjoy some of it!
Ok, so what do you suggest I do with the '72 Olds 455 & its original Turbo Hydramatic 400 Transmission? Should I sell it or worth rebuilding it?
good test I enjoyed it . the olds surprised me a little on the top end there .
Thanks Mike! We for sure had some surprises testing all these things. The Olds and Pontiac coming in with VERY similar peak HP numbers was quite interesting, especially considered the Torker vs Performer
10:20, just curious, do you have to worry about oil pressure when it's missing the cap?
No
if you have valve float at 5k you got somthing really wrong with your spring setup.
Unfortunately the springs are being overpowered, definitely not an ideal situation. There's also an issue that the cheap SBI valves that were used in the rebuild are HEAVY compared to what would ideally be in there.
Knowing the cast iron heads will only be on this motor for a reasonably short time as she gets used to the new setup and power levels, it just wasn't worth the money and frustration to keep fighting it.
Great test. Ty. I hear the Ford guys. Run a 1970 -71 Lincoln 460 with the dove-c heads. One very powerful engine that is overlooked.
Thank you for the watch and comment! We hear them as well and wish we could have included them in this test/video unfortunately there just aren't many people building BBF projects these days. Most people building hot rods or muscle cars with for power are doing 351 or 302 power, or if they're looking for speed and modern go Coyote. We're certainly open to building one for a customer though, there's definitely power and data to be found!
A well kept secret 😉
Interesting comparison, Thanks for doing it. Having said that I take issue with one of your conclusions, As a "Pontiac guy" myself I have to say there is no way that Olds parts are cheaper and or more readily available than Pontiac parts. There were literally millions of firebirds alone built with Pontiac engines, Never mind all the Lemans/GTO's Grand prix's Ventura's etc. Because there are so many of those F body's still out there the demand for Pontiac parts is still quite high and so WAY more stuff is available than for an Oldsmobile. Off the top of my head I can name 7 different companies just making cylinder heads for the Pontiac engine, and some have multiple variants. Butler even lists 5 different models of aftermarket block's! The same absolutely cannot be said of Oldsmobile, not by a longshot. In order of popularity and parts availability it would have to go Chevy, Mopar, Pontiac, and then Olds.
Yes, within seconds you know this guy isn't a Pontiac guy.... "big block"
We Mopar guys use to put a 440 crank in the larger bore 400 block netting a 451 , Netting over 500ft lbs of torque " and pulled a 3800 lb car into the 12's 💥
That's exactly what this was, a cut for 440 crank and rods with some custom pistons
Hi, The weep hole on the Mopar water pump should be pointing to the ground. Oh well... time for ice cream!
The way this water pump is indexed it actually CAN'T be on the bottom, but typically speaking yes you are absolutely correct. There's a little shelf on the pump to move the fluid away from the belts instead of it falling straight down.
Would like to know the cam specs on the engines
I would have liked to see a Ford 460 in this comparison. I assume the opportunity to do this comparison just happened to come up with those particular engines being built and ready for dyno at the same time. Great video.
You are pretty much spot on with this, we just happened to have multiple parallel projects moving forward at the same time with very similar builds. Unfortunate the Big Block Ford scene just isn't a popular option for hot rodding these days, at least not around us. We may still be able to eventually get our hands on one and move a build forward but... we'll see. Actually DO need to make another followup with this though to address things with the Mopar.
I think the Ford 429 would be a better candidate
A lot of people are running the 451 mopar setup at the local track. They are running aluminum heads and a lot of compression. They run really well. I run a 440 that we built in 98 when I just got out of high school. I ran out of money on the build, so I didn't get to do all the tricks I wanted too. As it is, it has 906 cast heads with 2.19 intake valves, not sure of the size of exhaust valves. The compression is around 10.1 with a small flat tappet lunati cam,stock duel plain intake and vacuum secondary 750 Holley and headers. I wanted to port a little on the heads and do a aluminum head, but the money ran out. With 4.56 gears and stock stall converter,she still kept up with my buddies small block Chevy strokers,that they spent a ton of more money than me.
It seems like there are quite a few 451s still running at tracks but they all seem to have been built YEARS ago like 80s and 90s, doesn't seem to be too popular for the modern hot rodder. Which, honestly makes sense, given how easily and cheaply you can pick up the 499 stroker kits. Your 440 even as it sits should be a serious bruiser and able to make gobs of power without spinning it up into the revs like your Chevy buddies likely are. Ideally we would have used a set of 906 heads but for the couple hundred dollars we would have spent on buying them, then rebuilding them, it just didn't make sense. This lil 451 will definitely see some additional upgrades in the not so distant future...the story isn't over yet!
Definitely keep an eye on the 451 Mopar build, there are some recent vidoes of it as we sort out more and more with that build and it's REALLY waking up now! Already starting to pencil in the next version of that build ;)
What about buick 455 stage 1
We actually DO have a Buick 455 Stage 1 that's sitting in our '65 Buick GS, unfortunately that's a running and driving car it didn't make sense to pull the heart out of it just to test :(
HOWEVER we WILL have that car on the chassis dyno here in a couple weeks which will absolutely film. Should be able to give us some strong numbers to compare with these 4.
@@LucoreAuto thank you ill be watching ur videos i got 2 68 rivieras one is a gs the 430 where tired so i installed a 455 in both cars
@@AlexRamirez-lf1wj you're into Rivs huh!? Well definitely stay tuned, we actually have a couple of those sitting here waiting for their chance to show off ;) They are 63-64s and will be making appearances sometime in the very near future!
Buick video goes live in about 10 minutes!
The throttle assembly on your Stuska is pretty bad ass with the square tubing and all makes it cool to watch it move through the pull
I have to admit a lot of the info went over my head but what I did understand was quite useful.
Kinda figured the Chevy would be the hands down winner but I wont lie, I was rooting for the Mopar. =)
Speaking of, I had *zero* clue you could make a 499 out of a 400, Hell I had never even heard of one. Hope y'all do one someday because I would love to see what kind of power that makes and what kind of reliability it would have.
Yeah being totally honest we had no idea there was so much potential in those "Junk smog" motors either. The old motor coming out of her car now will very likely come back to life with a 499 stroker kit in it... for... something. That 451 isn't done impressing yet there's a decent chance it goes back on an engine dyno for some improvements to the valve train which SHOULD allow it to RPM better
@@LucoreAuto I caught the valve float issue you were having there, heard it's a fairly common problem with some Mopar engines but I don't know the fix for it, wish I did. I do seem to recall a 360 that had the same problem and a Hi rise intake was at least part of the solution but that was 20 some years back...
Let me see if I got this right... she has a 2nd 400 that yer going to (eventually) do the 499 kit on? Or when she outgrows the 451 do the kit?
As I have mentioned I'm a hack mechanic at best (give me a proper manual and im good otherwise its the Braveheart scene with the crazed Irishman: 'The good Lord says yer fooked laddie!' and tools go airborne) but if she is already planning better aluminum heads wont she have to upgrade the valve train as well? And would that not likely solve the float issue?
Asking because im curious if going that route might not save a bit of cash over tiring to fix the valve float problem in the long term.
I really enjoyed your video, I’m not bias, I glad that you had time and effort to show us this, thanks.😀
Can we get a 472 or 500 caddy?
The unsung/underdog of all big blocks.
Stuffed afew into some camaros and firechickens over the years,made awesome drag cars. Haha
We are actually hunting for a buildable 500 Cadi since so many people have been asking for them, not quite as available as they used to be! Unfortunately lots of people were stuffing them into drag cars! ;)
We may be setting up a 500 Cubic Inch battle for the somewhat near future sooooo we'll see what we can find!
Awesome..I can't wait.
In the mid 70s to early 80s, people never thought about the big ol Cadillacs,mind you Cadillac never advertised their engine nunbers so it was always turned away... we used to go to wrecking yards and look for old caddy Limos or hearsts and rip out out the engines. Cheap horsepower and combined into lightweight car, toss on some headers and throw some timing at it, and off ya go. Fast, cheap horsepower back then, and the look on peoples faces when a crappy old Oldsmobile omega with a 472 caddy in it smokes their brand new Buick GN.. hahah
@@mikehunt9894 It's definitely the ultimate in large motor in a small package stuffing the powerplant out of a land barge into something.. well anything that wasn't barely able to fit in a garage. Unfortunately the days of easily finding those monsters are over so we are going to be a bit more out of pocket to pick one up. THEN we have to figure out what they heck to put it in!
@@LucoreAuto I've always wanted to put one in a Lincoln. Make some fanboys cry a little. Hahaha but, it does make sense in many ways. Lol.😉
@@mikehunt9894 A landboat landspeed car might be kinda fun? ;)
And what was the cfm on the demon carb you used?
There's also the Ford 460 as well.
For sure and we would love to have included one, unfortunately no one really does hot rod Big Block Fords around here. These were all motors for projects we had so could use them for the video, some day we hope to include a BBF as well!
@@LucoreAuto Awesome brother.
On the MOPAR 440Source sells a 512 Stroker kit. Trick Flow Heads are a nice piece
For the NEXT Motor we build for her ride there's a VERY good chance we go into the 500+ CI range, for essentially the same cost of a 451 why wouldn't you? Some nice aluminum heads will DEFINITELY be down the road just a little bit. Once the motor is in the car and she's had some seat time to get used to it... there's a lot of power trapped in these old crappy cast irons!
Ya might find it on TH-cam called “Hot Rod Garage” or the Motortrend On Demand App. They did a 512 Stroker in a 66 Plymouth Fury wagon it’s awesome a must watch.
@@eddiepatterson5025 problem with really going over the top on a build like that is everything ELSE has to be big and bad too. Transmission, suspension, brakes... you start making 600+ horsepower and the factory stuff or slightly upgraded stuff just won't work anymore
Just needed a decent 455 buick to complete the contest!
We tested one on a chassis dyno right after this, just didn't have one out of a car to include in a head to head engine dyno contest. Definitely give that a watch!
Like your comments!! You are truly non biased!! And I am a pontiac guy!!
Stumbled upon this video. I’ve been an Oldsmobile guy since I was a teenager and I am 54. I do love all of these engines and I play with Pontiacs as well. Just about everything you said is true cost parts etc. Oldsmobile”s are a little more pricier than you said but you hit their troubles pretty much on with the oil system. I think if you used the performer RPM intake the torque would’ve been very close to the Pontiac and Chevy. Curious if you would like to divulge some of the specs on the camshaft. And on the Oldsmobile did you switch the stock tower rocker system for an adjustable roller rocker system?
We are definitely curious what difference an intake swap on the Olds would have done, especially considering all the machine shop trickery inside the Pontiac. That the Olds is within striking distance.. it really makes for some interesting thoughts. The Olds cam card we posted on our Instagram if you look for LucoreRacing on there you'll find it.
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing I went there. That is one step below make cam. I have the 22 Dash25 on a 110 lobe separation angle because originally I was running power brakes. That cam originally was ground with a 108 and Joe added a 110 for power brakes. I put my engine together in 1993. It’s a 1967 400 that is now 411 in.³ and 10.4 to 1 compression with heavily ported sea heads andA lot of low end machine work. When I had a torque or intake on it, that engine hit 7000 RPMs a couple of times. No I am not lying I’ve had a couple friends witness it
@@DMR67442 the cam certainly isn't overly rowdy, it's meant for a '65 Olds F-85 that's just going to be a cruiser and street bruiser. Occasional blasts down the track may happen but it's more just for fun and daily driveavle hotrod duties.
Spinning one of these big old machines up past 5600 or so gets a little worrisome especially on rods that are... 45-50+ years old. Now with that said there IS a chance we do a little head work on this aluminum chunks and maybe throw a little juice or boost at it down the line... we'll see! ;)
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing That was an excellent choice for a camshaft. Especially if it’s an automatic car. My 67442 convertible is a four-speed with 410 gears
@@DMR67442 it is indeed, 700R4 automatic, should work very nicely once we have time to finally put the car together! :)
Hey I got a problem and was wondering if you could help. I got an 84 Chevy 3/4 ton with a 454. I put some 3" headers with a mild cam (224/230) and I keep cracking my water pump along the necks when I open it up. Any thoughts?
The 74 400 block is a better choice for a stroker the earlier block has stronger mains supports and you would make more power with the 400 heads with some minor port work 500 lb plus is easily achieved a set of trick flow or indy heads would put it in orbit stroker b engines have nearly insane power capability
There's definitely power left on the table in that Mopar once it swaps over to a good set of aluminum heads it'll be a whole new monster. For now though, it will be a HUGE change over the tired old 400 in there now!
But, that old tired one will likely live again some day as a 499 ;)
What was the HP on the Oldsmobile motor ???
What about a 429, or 460 Ford?
We honestly don't have many BBF powered hot rodders around Central Ohio, BUT since so many have been asking for it currently hunting for a 460 to build
I recently did a 400 block with a 4.25 stroke which made it a 512 cuin engine I use the 270 trick flow heads and a roller cam by Bullet that was around 265 duration at .050 lift, it was Dynoed at West Tech and it made 700 horsepower
The stroker kit came from 440 source and it yielded 10.3 to 1 compression ratio, the dyno pull was done with 91 octane fuel
That's a VERY good and powerful setup and likely only cost a tiny bit more than the 451 Mopar in this video. The 400 is a VERY impressive platform for power without getting into anything super crazy or complicated. Did you record or detail your build anywhere? Who's stroker kit did you use?
a Cadillac 472 should be included
Would love to show one of those off unfortunately don't have access to one!
It would decimate them all
@Dave Micolichek we are hunting for a 500 to build as we speak actually! :)
@@JRRowen-ht6du we're working on it!
yeah good luck finding them. I had a 1972 years ago It had some good get up and go for the tank it was in. I wanted to swap it into my Monte Carlo, but didn't have the skills at the time.
What I am building is a 470 RB MoPar 10.5:1 compression with Trick Flow heads, roller cam and a tunnel ram with 2 750 Mighty Demons. I have a JW 727reverse manual valve body trans, 8" 4000 stall JW converter and a 4.10 Dana 60. Just a street car :)
Lol yup sounds like just a mild mannered street car right there! Tach goes one way, fuel gauge goes the other, and a smile grows on your face rapidly! ;)
The RB stuff topped with some good flowing heads is ALWAYS a great formula for major power. God be with those rear tires.
Love that pontiac sound!!!!!!!
It certainly sounds good, and I can't WAIT to get it back in the '70 LeMans to hear it rumbling through some pipes! Non-Car people just don't get it, sound is IMPORTANT!
@@LucoreAuto I have a 72 Catalina convertible and I love it.
@@brucenaylor2043 Ohhhh that's a WHOLE lot of Sexy Pontiac! With some good rumble what a great summer cruising car!
I don’t know the details but take it a 400 to 491 is the motor going to be over square? If so it’s going to be good for pulling but not responsive.