Tony is exactly right about the connecting rods. It was by design, not Pete Estes, John Delorean, Bunkie Knudsen or Herb Adams design, they were trying to get corporate to OK forged rods. Olds, Buick and chevy had them, but corporate said no. Why would GM do that? Well... Every Pontiac VIN since the 60s starts with a 2. The chevys have a vin starting with 1. That was based on the pecking order of who sold the most vehicles. GM wanted chevy to be the largest manufacturer, and they wanted the Corvette to be top dog. Pontiac started selling too many vehicles, especially with the GTO, but going back to 1962 they were getting close to beating chevy numbers. The 421s and 389s were dominating racing, and racing was selling. In 1963, the year the mystery motor came out in the Corvette, which we all know as the 427 big block now, a lowly 63 Tempest put a hurting on everyone, and embarrassed not only chevy's Corvette, but also Ferrari, BMW, Porsche, and everyone else... in a freakin road race. The car from My Cousin Vinny that was confused with the Buick Skylark in mint green metallic with a white top was the 63 Tempest/LeMans... and this one in the race had a 421 stuffed in where a 326 usually was. Independent rear suspension which proved it was not kids driving the Buick that robbed the sack o suds, and a flexible driveshaft with a rear trans axle... which is eerily like the C6/C7 Corvette, which is what Leeroy the Savage is. The Tempest lapped the Corvettes several times, not just once. It ran away from them like they were pushing their Corvettes and sports cars on foot then rolling them down hills. Utterly obliterated them, it was several minutes between 1st place and 2nd in the finish times. This was not lost on GM and chevy, some crazy guys just made them all look like chumps, with a grandpa looking car using its goofy flexible driveshaft. I am sure many things were thrown around the C suite that week, including spicy expletives. GM's solution to slowing down the Pontiac was cast rods, which limited RPM. You can make incredible torque, earth moving power, tectonic plate shifting grunt, but spinning a 400 over 6300rpm or a 455 over 6000rpm usually meant a rod was going to be slinging its beam around whacking the camshaft, block, lifter bores, oil pan... etc. That is what happened to both engines I had where a rod decided to come apart, and neither were due to RPM, they were both sabotaged. (chevy guys don't like losing to cars that sound like they "are on a trip to the store for a loaf of bread." as one chevy friend of mine said it) Trust me, you can make ludicrous power under 5800 with a Pontiac using the stock rods, iron heads, and factory intakes, and they will live for decades doing it. 500ftlbs from just above idle to 5000 is VERY easy to achieve, especially with compression and porting. The problem is, most people think they have to spin an engine to make power, because they are used to short runner, bit lazy port sbcs and Fords. You need to spin those things to the moon to make power, because they lack torque under 4000rpm. What do most people do? They throw some 4.10 to 5.13 gears in the back, a 4000 stall, single plane intake, 250@.050 or bigger duration cams, big headers and spin the snot out of the poor little chevy things. When you do that with a Pontiac, even if you have forged rods in the bottom end, it goes slower and its particularly prevalent with the 455 and 428. They do not like lots of RPM, they are not designed to make the power up top, they make it EVERYWHERE ELSE. So when people do that, they can't figure out why it goes so slow, then it blows up. So when you put a 3.73 to 5 something gear behind a Pontiac, you are moving it through the RPM range too fast in each gear, 6k shows up real fast with a 4.10 gear, 29" tall slicks, and a 455 making nearly 600ftlbs at 3000rpm. I did that to slow the thing down from 11.40s with a 3.42 to 4.10s running 12.0s to avoid putting a roll bar in, because I was broke in the 90s. When you put a 2.93 to 3.55 gear behind it, you keep the engine in its RPM range where its making all that torque for a much longer time. The engine is grunting so hard it doesn't care what gear is behind it, its either going to shove the car down the track or its going to destroy the Th400 or tires behind it. That dip from 1st to 2nd in a 700R4 because of the 3.06 first gear? Yeah a 455 doesn't give a damn and a 400 is amused by it. Using a 4000 stall when you have to shift at 5800 is wasting all that RPM and torque below 4000, so the car goes slower, not quicker. Make it work, let it eat, and the Pontiac will throw you back in the seat with a 3.08 gear. Its the long runners that are kinda small for a 400 and definitely small for a 455, that limit the RPM due to airflow but make so freakin much velocity. A 455 will just stop pulling with ported iron heads at 6000rpm. That small but long port moves air VERY FAST, they are high *velocity* ports because of the Bernoulli effect of air speeding up when it goes through a necked down place or a long runner. Putting a single plane intake on effectively shortens the intake port, and it kills bottom end, but the ports are not sized to flow air at high RPM, so it doesn't pick any up on top. The single plane intake usually makes a Pontiac powered vehicle slower... usually. 245@.050 is about the biggest you want to go with iron heads. Do you know what happens when you take that long high velocity intake port and make it flow more air? It makes MORE torque EVERYWHERE in the RPM range, and over 310cfm you open the door to 7000rpm. Now imagine if you will, an engine that is making 650ftlbs at 2500, and carrying it through to nearly 6500 and is still making 500ish ftlbs at 7000rpm... and doing it without a power adder. That my friends is one of my higher end Pontiac engines, and yes it has a single plane intake on it. Sure you can spin it to 7000, but why bother? All it will do is wear the engine out faster, put a 3.00-3.50 gear behind it and let it do its thing as you shift it at 6500. Keep up on the valve spring maintenance and it will last decades. You have to think different with a Pontiac, or a Caddy as they too are low RPM engines. It is far better to take an engine and make it do what it is designed to do better, than it is to try to make it do something it was not designed to do. Make the Pontiac or Caddy make even more torque rather than trying to spin them up real tight. That 11.40 car with a 455? Yeah it was a $2700 rebuild, $1500 of it was getting the heads ported and new valves put in, TRW slugs, ARP rod bolts, and since the RPM was not out yet, and would not fit under the hood anyway, it had a Torker II single plane on it. The car was a 1979 Formula, weighed 3750lbs without my 230lb ass in it, had a stock L88 converter (1900 stall) and a 228/231/109 hydraulic cam in it. I moved the shifter at 5800 and the trans shifted as it hit 6000. 1.59 sixty foots on 9" wide slicks, 1.70 on drag radials, and it would move the tire a quarter inch around the rim on launch... with a 3.42 gear and no power adder other than the 11.3:1 compression. The same top end from the 90s era Formula is in my 65 GTO and it is 3400lb with me in it. It has a 455 with an Eagle crank kit under the heads, and that thing runs hard. Its a daily driver to me, and if the bird ran 11.40s weighing right at 4000 going down the track, I figure the 65 should run at least that quick since its lighter. I have $4200 in that engine, because it has a $1100 hydraulic roller cam in it, but it would run about the same with a $75 Summit 2802 cam, which is about the same size. 224/228/112. More is not always better, sometimes less in certain areas gets you more. Hell. I should make a video and just read all of this into the mic then add pictures.
Partially correct. Pontiac VINs since 1965 start with a "2". Prior to that, they do not. Cadillac VIN #s in some of the 1960s do not follow the "divisional order" VIN type sequence. That was normalized later on. Also partially correct on Chevrolet VIN numbers. They did not always start with "1" in the 1960s either.
Back in 1974 my dad had a '70 GTO "Judge" with the Ram Air 4 engine and 4spd. One evening, two guys in a '69 Chevelle SS 396 came up beside him and started taunting him to race. So he let the old goat "eat" and took it all the way up to 140mph blowing the Chevelle's doors off. He happened to look down at his gauges and noticed that every needle, including the oil pressure gauge was pointing at zero. He then looked in his rearview mirror and saw nothing but smoke. When he coasted to the side of the road, the Chevelle blew by with the two guys hooting & hollering and laughing their asses off. He said there was oil covering the entire decklid of his GTO all the way up to the rear window. He got a 428 replacement engine out of an old Bonneville, and when he took the 400 out he had blown four connecting rods straight through the block and oil pan. He always wondered why an engine would grenade so violently when running in high gear, but I guess this maybe explains it. He also assumed the Chevelle was not an L78 375hp version, as there were very few of those around and even a Ram Air 4 400 most likely could not beat one of those. Anyway, I thought I'd share this story, as it seems somewhat relevant to the topic of the video.
It was generally the 3-in mains that made them it's just like a berry go round in the park you sit in the Middle East day on you go to the outside and wants to throw you off same thing with the oil in a Pontiac motor that's why the newer Pontiacs they race use big block Chevy journal sizes
@@jimfrancis2624 nah, its just RPM, and people revving them beyond where they are actually making power. The 3" mains aren't a problem. The main reason most of us go to bbc journal sizes is because in the 90s the bbc rods were cheaper than forged 6.625" Pontiac rods, and we could use 6.8" rods with a $500 set of pistons. Back then forged 6.625" rods were $1200 a set or more. He wondered about a RA IV beating an L78.. yeah, the IV would stomp an L78, provided it was running right. The L78 had what, 11:1 compression and a 242@.050 solid cam, but the guys who raced the IVs 50 years ago said no 396 was a problem for them, despite less compression, smaller cams, and less gearing. Most people who bought IV engines thought they were daily driver mills like the D ports, but they required some maintenance and someone who knows what they are doing. Take them to a chevy dealer and it won't come back right. A friend of mine is the original owner of a 69 RA IV 4 speed Judge, the original engine is on a stand in his shop. He was not the type who wanted to work on the car every couple weeks or so, he took it to the shop. IV heads and cam on a 428 or 455 is a very simple combination that results in an 11 second car even if it weighs 4000lbs. But you shift it at 6000rpm, not 6500, not 7000, not 7500... unless you have forged rods in it, which like I said earlier were expensive until recently. There is no need to spin a Pontiac that high unless you have worked aftermarket heads on it that will flow enough air to support that large of an engine at that high of an RPM. It takes a 572 bbc to match the torque of a D port 455. Its all in the port length and velocity.
I believe it : we were in a blazer going 110 and the gto went around us like we were standing still . I still remember the wide tires on the back that gto flopping around. It had the 400 engine .
I like Uncle Tony. It’s obvious that he has a penchant for Mopars. However, he brings out the highlights of other OEMs. He’s very knowledgeable. I had a 1969 Ram Air 3 firebird my senior year of high school. #62 heads and 068 cam. It had tremendous torque and ran mid 13’s back in 1989. Pontiacs were all known for their inherent torque. The small port heads created a faster velocity. They were never intended to exceed the HP max on the power curve; usually around 5300ish rpms. That goes for Buicks and especially big block Olds. GM A bodies were heavy cars and GM engineers needed torque to move them. If you look at various muscle car curb weights, you’ll find that the Mopar unibodies, as large as they appear, were about the same weight as a Nova or Camaro. I always wanted to find a set of 7H3 or HO round port heads.
The first engine I built was a 400 Pontiac. Used a book called "How to build a Superstock Pontiac". It focused on the 400/428/455 engines. It was written in 1980. Still have it today and I bought it new. I used to buy Pontiac 400/428/455 core engines to build for $50 bucks each. Could get the T400 that was bolted to it for another $25 bucks. Them were the days. I once bought a RA 3 400 from a 70 Formula that was wrecked, paid $125 bucks for that unit. Already had a Torker intake & 800 DP Holley on it, a Mallory dual point distributor, and a RA 4 cam with 1.65 rockers installed. Also had a pair of Hooker Headers on it. Hell of a deal. Engine didn't have 10,000 miles on it.
I knew someone that once owned a '73 Pontiac Ventura "Sprint". He transplanted a stock 455 from a 1970 Boneville, kept the Saginaw because he couldn't locate a Muncie Rock Crusher, kept the 3:08 rear. Think it was 375 HP 525 ftlbs torque. Stock. Nothing could touch it on the street and he only needed to shift up to 4,500 RPM for that car to take care of business. It handled remarkably well and flat around corners and it idled so smooth. It had the functional/optional Trans Am shaker and Ralley gauges that I found accidentally at the savage yard purchasing a fender for my '77 Bronco and gifted him the shaker and gauges on his birthday which was on the same day of finding it. Good looking car.
Yes, the rods were the weak link in the Pontiac V8. I have been racing and building Pontiac’s since the early 80’s and learned early on that they will live a long life when the big end is properly machined to less than .0005 out of round, and good rod bolts are used. My last 455 made 600 hp with stock cast rods. After 11 years of 1/4 mile racing it finally wore out #1 rod bearing. Didn’t break anything, just started knocking after a pass. I should have freshened it up after 5 or 6 years but I was trying to see how far I could push a stock bottom end. Now I know. 😁
Was it the rods or the fact that the structure of the block would flex all over the place. The block was like butter in the Pontiac engines it moved all over the place.
@@jeremypike9153 you're thinking Buick, they flex like crazy, the Pontiac is a lot stronger. The only weak links in them are the rods and some of the lifter bores, but the bores aren't a problem unless you are running a solid roller with around .700 lift or more. The rods snap when the big end tries to pull the piston back down the bore, too much RPM stretches then then they snap. I've seen it a lot when chevy guys drive a Pontiac.
Reminds me of a neighbor I once had that was a Vietnam Vet. He told me about how when he got back from Vietnam and he used his savings to buy a GTO off the showroom floor. Said it would walk all over everything he raced against. Could flat foot it down a straight road and the speedo would spin round, around when you topped it out. I asked, "What happened to it?". He said, "Threw a rod....".
I have every single issue of "High Performance Pontiac" magazine. Started collecting car magazines back in 1978. Have thousands now, a whole small building full. Stopped buying them about 7-8 yrs ago. Learned alot about engines and building cars by reading everything that pertained to cars that I could find. I miss those days.
Ending was hilarious! Yes, Pontiac's OEM rods were weak, but Oliver had strong forged replacement rods for them. That's what most folks around me down in Georgia used. I used to put those Oliver rods in small block Chevys, and Wiseco made pistons to run. The longer length did wonders for wear on the blocks of the dirt track engines we built with them. Today's kids have it made, with all the stroker kits and such. lol.
Yeah we have it made alright. Apparently you guys haven’t seen the going price for parts these days. Hot ridding is a rich man’s hobby unless you repurpose used parts for the entire build.
Pontiac it's in my blood,My grandparents work for Pontiac motor division for 40 years grandma made ring gears, Grandpa made transmission gears. I was born in Pontiac orthopedic hospital Pontiac Michigan. Rode home from the hospital in Mom's '57 Pontiac chieftain that she used to race out at the old Pontiac airport. And on Friday and Saturday nights would race stop light to stop light out on Woodward. One of my first memories is standing on the hump between the bucket seats holding onto the bucket seats as Mom is racing from light to light on Woodward in Dad's brand new 62 Tempest 4 cylinder 4 barrel 4 speed. She'd walk a Thunderbird like it was standing still. I have had '64 '65 '66 GTO's a 66 tempest with the 6 cylinder and three-speed convertible. A 67, 68,69, 70, 71, 74,75 firebirds, my graduation present was a 77 trans Am, 68,69 LeMans and a 70 T-37. 2 two 68 catalinas. And a 69 Bonneville.
Back in the late 60's, early 70's i walked past 4 car dealers, Ford, Pontiac, AMC and Chrysler on my way to school, after school i would check all the hot cars at every dealer, i remember the day a new blue trans am was unloaded, and a few days later a white one, both were 400 4 speeds, those were the days.
By killing one v8 engine family and let 2 more live (buick, olds)for some reason. If they really wanted to downsize they could have made a single corperate engine.
@@sneff1052 That's exactly what they did do, though. By the time GM killed Pontiac most of what they offered was a rebadged Chevy. The G8 was a unique chassis, but it had an LS3, the G5 was a cobalt, the Vibe was a damn Toyota... Pontiac didn't have their own engines anymore at that time, it was all corporate parts bin stuff. Pontiac hadn't had their own engines for a decade or more when they were killed. Oldsmobile died before Pontiac, too if I'm not mistaken...
I wasn't that sad, and I am a HUGE Pontiac fan. When the V8 went away in 1979, Pontiac died. I still like the styling and I prefer to drive 1998-2006 Gran Prix as winter beaters, plus I have a 1998 Formula with an LS1 in it that I love to drive... but they are a trim package to me.
@@SweatyFatGuy Technically, the last Pontiac V8 was 1981, not 1979, although 1979 was the last year for the 400 V8, and it was only used with a manual transmission in the F body cars (I have a 10th Anniversary 400/4 speed). The 1980-1981 Pontiac V8s were the 301 four barrel, VIN code "W", RPO code "L37" or the 301 four barrel turbocharged, VIN code "T" RPO code "LU8" (I have an '80 Turbo also). The 301 wasn't anything performance wise like the 400 was, but it was "right" for the times given what GM had to deal with.
You sound like me. Since I dropped Pontiac (budget reasons) I went to Chevy. I'm using a block I picked up in '88 just now... building a 383 for a drag C3 corvette. Old school with left over carb (too small just a 750 - but its what I have). About the same time I picked up a 440hp block and a low milage 383 block.... still sitting in my parents basement annoying my mother for 30+ years.
The historical background comments are great! I have a 1978 Trans Am with a Butler 455 in it and a 1964 Sport Fury with a 426 wedge. Both are a hoot to drive. I now understand how things are the way they are.
In high school , mid 60s, had a 65 Catalina 2+2 , 421 super duty. Foolishly had just a slight idea of what I had. That car was a beast- it would run side by side with the 396 ss , which the car nobody could touch. And, as usual, wish I had that wide track Pontiac back..
I have a 63 SD 421 Catalina sitting on a trailer. It blew up back in 1970. And it came with forged rods. Gonna build a stroker 67 400 for it. Of course it'll have aftermarket rods and crank in it. Pontiac engines can run, just gotta build them right.
Really loving this muscle car evolution and analysis of each brand's shortcomings. Hope it continues. Everybody was making excellent cars in the 60s, but I think Pontiac was absolutely killing it, and might be my pick for best overall lineup. Not only were the engines potent from the factory and the cars absolutely gorgeous, but they were exceptionally well made and comfortable. While it's hard to argue with a GTO (64 is my favorite year), I think the Grand Prix deserves a lot of credit for building a full size image car in an era of intermediate performance craze. The 65 GP in particular is a breathtaking design. Also, Tony, your adverts are hilarious! It's good to see Crystal again too! Hope she's doing well in the busy holiday season. I was not expecting you to light the shirt on fire... but once you did, that thing really lit up! You're lucky you didn't burn the whole place down with it LOL
your story about the pontiac guy who blew his engine is funny and very relatable. My little brother put a turbo on his 1994 honda civic with the stock SOHC engine and they also have pretty weak connecting rods from the factory. He was showing off the anti-lag to his friends and ended up breaking and shooting a rod through the block in the parking lot lol.
I just today came across your TH-cam channel and I subscribed. I am absolutely delighted with the content. Let me tell you about my Trans Am that I no longer have... I bought it new in 1977 in California. It came with a 403. in 1984, at 143,000 miles the 403 started pinging and rattling and overheating. I bought an XF block from Ken Crocie of HO-Racing and converted the TA to a 455 with 96 casting cylinder heads, and a THM 400 transmission. The cast connecting rods were like Democles' sword for me (all in my mind of course). So, in 1991, for no reason except that I thought I had too much money in my pocket I ordered from Crower eight steel billet connecting rods in the standard Pontiac rod size and changed them, along with Edelbrock aluminum cylinder heads, and I put a Richmond 5 speed racing tranny in place of the THM 400. I still retained the 2.41 rear end (massaged by Tom's Differentials). With a 4.03 first gear it was an unbelievable car, with 315/40 X 16 tires and Herb Adams suspension and bars.... I cry every time I hear about Pontiacs. My car? Due to circumstances, in 2013 I gifted the car to someone who turned out to be totally unworthy of my kindness...
The connecting rods were Pontiacs achilles heel,but the problem even more so was the rod bolts. They were prone to stretching after awhile. If your building on a budget and cant afford forged rods, at the very least get good rod bolts.
My God....after 55 years, I now realize that all my collective knowledge about Mopar Uncle Tony must forget about in his sleep. Sir, this is the reason I'm dedicated to your channel. Think I'll order some more shirts.
I had a '65 GTO 389, did all the usual stuff, cam, headers, intake and then put 421sd heads on it and grenaded it at York, Pa. Learned a real hard lesson, filled a bucket with busted rod parts and pay for oil cleanup.
I'd like to say thankyou for constantly reassuring yourself that viewers are listening and needing your content. I'm 43, and I used to have a neighbor who was a Mopar fan, and he had a 1968 chystler Road Runner gtx with a 440 and 6 pack carburetor. I always liked engines but that's who allowed me to explore it. I went to college for aircraft maintenance but didn't pursue it but I've never lost the love of understanding mechanical engineering and your experience is the key to all youths education which is something I won't have until I'm your age is what I'm lacking. I appreciate everything that you spend your time, sweat and heartache on because I'm learning things that no institution can show me. As long as you can keep up the good work. I appreciate you. Thankyou
In 1968, in Australia, my old man and his brother took the Trophy bottom end out of their totalled Bonneville and swapped it in under the Ram Air heads in their GTO - after taking a skim off each - and ran reliable, low 12s. Dad would say that every person in the pits would "enlighten" them of the likelihood that they would leave the crankshaft at the starting line of the next run, and they would just turn and say "probably."
Lol. I felt the heat from the shirt here on Staten Island. I’ve been watching your videos for quite some time now and always enjoy them. And I do so in part because I’m a Mopar guy at heart and still have my 69 Swinger I bought from a friend, on Staten Island in 1989. I do enjoy all cars and you mentioned HL on Hylan - so I figured I’d let you know that I also have an 85 Cutlass that was sold new from HL and it currently has a big block Chevy in it. It’s a blast and you’d appreciate it if you seen it. Keep the great videos coming 😉👍
I am a long time Pontiac guy and am glad to hear UT used to write for High Performance Pontiac. Now I'll have to dig my old mags and look for UT articles. Pontiac was the only one offering a car with an engine bigger than a 350ci at the end of the 70s. Even offering a Turbo motor as well. Pontiac was sporty and young buyer cars which makes it stupid why GM killed them off and is trying to make Buick the sporty division now.
According to Bob Lutz, the deal that GM made in 2008-2009 with the US government involved that GM had to dissolve Saturn, Hummer, Olsmobile and Pontiac.
Yeah, it's a shame that GM killed off Pontiac and kept Buick. I would always see way more Pontiac Grand Am and Grand Prix's on the road than almost any other vehicle. I was upset when GM killed off the F bodies in 02 and then when they dissolved Pontiac I never bought another GM product again. I just buy Mopars now
God, I f'n LOVE this channel! I learned something new with every single episode! Thank you so much for all the work that you and uncle Kathy put into it.
I really enjoyed this video and learned a lot from it. I had no idea about this cast rod deal. I owned an early 70's 400 and tortured that thing mercilessly and it never complained but it wasn't hopped up. My dad had both early to mid 60's Tempest and Catalina. I don't know what engines they had because I was younger but I do remember them going the speed of light in my kid mind when he'd get on it.
Alpha, FINALLY, you make a video about my beloved Ponchos and you're bashing on them!!! Just kidding man, you are absolutely right about the con rods, they were junk which is why exceeding the 5000 RPM redline on the regs was what we un-ironically referred to as "flirtin with disaster'. Back before we met, in the very early 80's I set about building the 'ultimate' Pontiac engine for my burgundy 4 speed 70 goat. I had figured out by then that I needed to go with a forged bottom end. As you correctly stated, there were ZERO aftermarket options in 1982, so I started with a 4 bolt ram air iii block from a buddy who had totaled his goat (flying off the end of veterans rd by the west shore expwy). I then found this guy in the back of HPP mag called 'Purely PMD' located out in New Mexico who hooked me up with forged Super Duty con rods ($800) and a 400 "armasteel" crank (not forged but supposedly stronger than cast). I also saw an ad in HPP for a set of 70 RAIV round exhaust port heads (casting 614) that a guy had in northern NJ which I also bought for a grand bare. In effect, I had built a RA IV 406 (with forged rods). Because this process took forever (several years), by the time I got it all together, I had lost some interest and never really got the chance to thrash on it @ E-town but she would have been a runner. P.S. by the time I went through my second GTO phase (mid life crisis) in the early 2000s, the aftermarket had finally caught up and it was ridiculously easy to build a NASTY Pontiac engine which I did. Used an aftermarket IA2 block forged rotating assembly and Aluminum 'wideport' heads ported by some of the best in the business - Dave Bischoff among them. TD rocker shafts, and a .775 lift solid roller. Used to sing that NA Pontiac 540 to 8 grand at the big end and not break a sweat. Was able to put the "hess truck" which I had just bought before you left for TN fairly deep in the 9s at a shade under 2 tons on the scales @ e-town with me in it. Cost an ungodly amount of scratch, and I could have gone faster for less than half if I sensibly used a BBC, but I was obsessed with doing it with an Indian under the hood. Truth be told, the only thing "stock Pontiac" was the bore spacing and water pump. Anyway, I finally achieved the dream from decades earlier of having the most badazz goat on SI. NOBODY wanted a piece of that car circa 2008...
Tony, back in the day to get away from the 63 on up factory 389 cast iron rods, we use to use 59 to 62/ 389 steel rods, then pin the lower rod cap bearing with a bronze step pin in the lower cap to help hold the rod bearing because with most of the long duration sold lifter cams ( 308* to 325* Der) we ran in the 389 & 400 4 bolt blocks as that was the best rods we had to deal with back then. This modified rod was good up to around 9,000 rpm power shifts for a while, but you had to check the center to center distance of the piston to crank all the time and re size them every year or so. The biggest problem was the soft Arma poured steel cranks were just out & out junk in the early 389s but if you knew anybody in racing, they might sell you an early forged steel 389 Super duty crank to use with the 59 to 62 pinned poured steel 389 rods. With that combo you could build a pretty dependable 10 second drag car on race gas with no NO-2. Today with Butler Pontiac you can build a strong 400 Pontiac 4 bolt R/A IV iron block twine turbo with all billet parts that do run in the 8s or faster, but at that point, it all has turned into cubic dollars anymore, and the real fun factor is all but gone. Bottom line, how fast can you spend? So sad.
Ran a 426 in a 66 'Cuda with a BFP(rybar), and in your vernacular it was a beautiful disaster. We brought two sets of bearings to the track. My 65 GTO developed vacuum issues on the no. 4 cyl. intake. Installed after market connecting rods as a matter of course. You're right on the Fords, especially the FEs. Chevy was lucky when the E.P.A. cracked down with new emission laws enacted in 1968, which coincide with the roll out of Fords rollout of the 385 series (302, 351, 429, 460) so they didn't develop "go fast" parts for awhile.
You stated it very well in broad terms and the approach was the right way. You point out the strengths and weaknesses, which is the honest way to assess them. Pontiacs are not for the weak of heart. They are for those that want something different. By the 1970s, at least Pontiac still had a 400 in the Trans Am and when the Mustang went to a Pinto based vehicle and shut the performance light out, Pontiac "kept the light on for ya". Most are familiar with the Pontiac performance folks such as Annunziata "Nunzi" Romano who had a shop for years in Brooklyn, NY. He was brought a 1972 Trans Am by a magazine and asked to see what he could do with it. The writer said, "But you don't have a dyno". Mr. Romano replied with, "I don't need a friggin' dyno. I got one right here" (pointing to his heart). With some tricks and tuning, Mr. Romano woke the car up. He was also the one to coin the phrase, "Rochester doesn't have to advertise. They sell 5 million carburetors a year". There are others that Mr. DeFeo likely knows from the HPP days such as Rocky Rotella and H-O Racing Specialties of Hawthorne, CA. Yes, Chevrolet small block and big block parts are found on every street corner, but that's what makes Pontiac better in my book. They were never a "me too" company. They always sought to be different. When Hal Needham needed a car for Smokey in the Bandit in 1977, he didn't choose a Camaro. He chose a Pontiac Trans Am. Yes, a 1977 (although they were actually 1976 cars with 1977 front ends) Trans Am wasn't a barn burner compared to its' earlier brethren, it kept the torch lit long after everyone else shut the light off. If you wanted a fast car in 1979 that handled well, you bought a Trans Am. If you wanted to add good looks and a classic design, you bought a Trans Am. I own three Pontiacs, including a 2009 G6 convertible, which although it shares its underpinnings with a Malibu of that year, it's still unique in that only Pontiac offered a convertible version of it. I get stopped every time I'm out with it and people say, "What type of car is that?" When I tell them, they are stunned. The car costs half as much as a Mercedes Benz convertible that year and I get MB drivers stopping me asking what it was and what it cost. If you want common as dirt, go Chevrolet V8. Not that there's anything wrong with that, as Mr. DeFeo stated. However, if you want to be different and stand out, do it as the 1979 10th Anniversary Trans Am ad said, "Very Rare, Very Well Done".
Nah Summit and Butler will sell you good solid Made In China "stock replacement" forged rods for less than $400. They are exactly the same dimensions as stock and LOTS tougher. Pretty close on weight I think they are like 20 grams heavier. Much as I dislike offshore parts they have American quality controls in place. Not going to ruin a good block over $400.
all the early rods were forged but they are 60 years old minium. go with new H beam. Jim Hand said cast rods are good to 5800 rpm. so if you can make your car work below that rpm no need for aftermarket .
Your Tee shirt advertising at the end of the vid worked, I just ordered 2 of the "Sketchy" shirts! I wanted to get them before the price skyrockets!!! My son learned the hard way about the Chrysler old sump problem, he burned up 2 con rod bearings while beating a 440 Six Pack Cuda by a length in his 510 horse 72 440 powered Charger. Dang that was an expensive lesson!
I have read that after Pontiac's racing success of the early sixties that the GM brass put a 10 lb. / Horsepower cap on them because Chevy with the Corvette was supposed to be the performance division. If you notice, no matter how hot...Ram Air III, Ram Air IV...a Pontiac 400 V-8 is, it is never rated at more than the 360ish HP range...about one tenth of the weight of a GTO. Meanwhile the 428 in rather mild tune is rated at 390...one tenth of the weight of a full frame Gran Prix or Executive...
I know I read your articles when I was a kid. It's so cool to see all the guys who wrote for magazines, when I was first learning about cars, all have TH-cam channels now. And I get to learn all over again
The fire still flickering in the background as you confidently continue.....and the ultra calm, o that's really burning.....and then just continue the story. The look on her face was priceless.
No lie, super stock racing Pontiacs in the 70s and 80s was tough. I was fortunate to find a set of used 421SD rods for my 428. Still could not work around the cylinder head issue, even with porting. The plus is that no motor has more mid-range explosiveness IMO, and you cam the snot out of the motor for mid-range pull. Good Times. :)
@ 6:00 mark... Yeah, I used to sell plenty of those skid plates. The first month driving my '69 383 Valiant mule, I actually scraped the oil pan driving through a regular gas station parking lot. Didn't go over a speed bump, didn't hit a giant pothole - but the car had six cylinder torsion bars, sat at stock ride height, and still had the original 13" front wheels at that point. And a stock oil pan was pretty easy to find the ground with 😆
Love this series, catching up now. Always learning stuff on your channel Uncle Tony. I Just installed a Pontiac Super Duty scoop ( 50s ford truck scoop) on my 55 and talked a little about Arniethe Farmer!
You are absolutely correct on the Pontiac cast rods. That was a mess with the street racing crowd, and back in the day you could not a cheap set of forged rods. Unless you could somehow find some 421 Super Duty rods or pay for a set of super expensive Carrillo rods you were SOL. Back in the late 80's early 90's I had a good friend with a 455 Trans Am street racing car used for high speed roll racing. Mostly a stock engine with all the good Pontiac stuff, like the Pontiac HO 455 4bbl aluminum manifold, ported polished ram air heads, forged pistons, a nice street cam, balanced and blueprinted engine, Holley 850, stock ram air exhaust manifolds (no headers as they were too low and an issue when you were doing 150 MPH plus and they would hit the ground on every bump in the highway), and the piece de resistance which was a 2 stage nitrous kit, with a 125 shot and then a 250 shot, and 2 big nitrous bottles. If I recall correctly car had somewhere around 2.73 gears for the high speed runs, it could have been even higher gears. Guy would race from 60 to 150 mph. He used to love racing motorcycles on the highway, and he would usually win. Lots of races with 911/930 Turbo cars, Lambos, Ferraris etc... As long as he kept the engine under 5,500 RPM's it would last a bit, but if it went over 5,500 that was it, the rods would immediately go out of round and spin a bearing. I never saw a rod implode and take out the engine, but many times one of the cast rods would just stretch and go out of round and spin a bearing...
IIRC, you needed to prove you had an SD455 Firebird to order that engine's forged rods back in the day (which were stronger). Given your video, that makes sense -- there must have been a *lot* of enthusiasts who wanted stronger rods!
I became Pontiac fan in 1964 when I bought a new 64 GTO. I used 1961-62 rods ( CR 4140 ) and had them heat treated to Rockwell 35. Super duty rods were CR 4113 and not as good. I had them shot peened. I still broke cranks and pistons. I bought an OTC piston press instead heating the rod ends. aaaaaait was $1900 back in the day.
I've also heard that on Pontiacs, the way the motor mounts bolt into the block, it can distort the main webbings on High HP applications or people with broken motor mounts. Which can cause main bearing failure. Olds aswell
it takes a lot to do that. Well over 600hp, the stock style mounts are why I used a motor plate on my 68 LeMans, that thing is going to make some crazy power with a bit of boost.
@@SweatyFatGuy i read a good bit of your other comment. and yeah it seems pontiacs dont like to spin up as quick as other engines. i have a pontaic 455 in an 81 TA some hillbillies put together. they stuffed 4.10s in the rear and it sucks. gets like 6mpg, tops out at like 90mph. and really isnt that quick. you pumch it at 25 and itll light the tires up, but the acceleration just isnt there.
That was REALLY interesting. I agree, Pontiac was the performance division and should have walked away with the aftermarket performance market. I never knew you were editor of High Performance Pontiac in the 80s. My sister loved Pontiacs and was driving a Trans Am at the time, and she used to get the magazine. I'll have to see if she still has some old ones around and see if I can find some articles you wrote.
Really great info! I'm diggin this historic perspective. I think a lot of this gets lost as these cars are being purchased by people with more dollars than sense.
Tony thank you so much I built a b engine a body in 1987 and thought for all these years I believed I did something wrong when I spun a rear main approaching low 12s and it was jest the nature of Mopar at the time and I hated Chevy at the time so you know what I didn't Evan realize what happened till I watched your .Post again thanks
Many years ago, there was a TV commercial for fingernail polish, don't remember which brand, but a man was holding these long glass rods and breaking them over a table and saying, "Are you tire of your nails breaking like these glass rods?" We used to joke about the Pontiac engine connecting rods every time that commercial came on. Still have several Pontiac V8's and still love em, especially the 4 speed F-body cars.
The other issue Pontiacs had was the gigantic crankshaft, especially the main journals. They were enormous on the small V8s, and even bigger on the large engines. The 326-400 engines had a 3in main journal and the 421, 428 and 455 had an even bigger 3.25in main journal. Even a BBC only used a 2.75in journal IIRC. With those huge journals, the bearing speed is ridiculous, and they run into all kinds of problems because of it at high rpm. Most people don't know this, but Smokey Yunik actually worked for Pontiac initially, but when they went to the giant 3.25in main journal against his advice, that's when he left to go work with Chevy instead. Those cast rods and giant journals are why Pontiac engines don't want to be revved like you can with a BBC for example.
I tore down a 455 Pontiac that had a snapped crankshaft because 6 wrist pins were seized. The crankshaft looked kind of odd to me and this makes sense of why they had issues.
@@gabesgarden57 their cranks are ridiculous. It's great for low speed durability, like in a big diesel engine, but for high rpm it just isn't going to work. Even with good strong rods, that crank design is a liability once you get the rpm up over 5000rpm.
Pontiac cast cranks either Arma Steel or the later Nodular Iron (not including the lightened ones in the mid-late 70's) are actually pretty stout, good for 600+ hp if properly prepped. Yeah the 3.25 journals for the 421-455 are pretty big though I believe Olds used the same size. Some would cut them down to 3" and put in a 400 block. Now you can easily buy aftermarket cast or forged cranks with the 3" journals and build a 455 using the 400 block. And believe it or not a Ford 351 Windsor also uses a 3" main journal.
@@robertrio1164 they are a very strong crank, yeah. That's not the issue though, it's that journals that big create really high bearing speeds, which can be very difficult to make survive high rpm. That's one big benefit the sbc has over alot of the old V8s. They had relatively small main journals, which helped alot with high rpm longevity, especially the small journal 283 and 327 engines.
@@robertrio1164 yes, factory Windsors are also cursed with a huge 3" main since they were designed for station wagons and trucks and not for high rpm use. That's why you'll find all the aftermarket performance Windsor blocks have a 2.75" Cleveland main instead.
As much as I want to disagree with Tony he has so much more knowledge than me but the one thing I will agree with him on is how to crack a joke. Light something on fire, make vague comments about economics, and keep a straight face. Tony you sir are a hero, God bless America, happy birthday to Jesus, and whatnot.
Even though I'm a GM guy, I enjoy Uncle Tony's channel immensely. Would love it if he started tackling breakdowns of specific non-Mopar engines, like the 1970 LT-1 or the 1969 DZ 302.
I'm a Ford man, but I think the 1970 LT-1 was one of the best performance engines Chevy has built, to run on the street with. I know the DZ was built literally the same way except for a slight cam spec change, and that may have been why it was a little finicky for the low speed city running, IMHO. The LT-1 had everything you needed, enough manners to cruise the streets, and enough muscle to run with most everything out at the time.
Great history lesson thank you! I had a 1967 Firebird in HS and College. 326HO. Great car! Today I have a 67 400 with factory power windows and A/C and factory cruise control! It's not perfect but it's very nice. I always wondered why I could not get the aftermarket items I really wanted. Now I know! Thank you!
I was a Pontiac man in high school, On one of my GTO's, I had a rod come right through the pan. You sure dig up a lot of memories, Tony. Thankfully, that was in the 80's, so $800.00 would buy you another one!
I like the GTO story. When I was about 14 we were down at the family farm in Oshawa, Ontario (Canada) - 1974 or 5. We were sleeping in our tent trailer with only a field separating us from a major road. I came awake 3 or 4 in the morning and I could hear some BIG iron facing off down this road. I have no idea what or who was racing, but like I said, there was some BIG iron involved, lots of howling tires and roaring engines .... Music. I drifted off to sleep supremely happy.
Tony talking about the dude with the Pontiac and the blower at the lights reminds me of being at the Port Road Drags in New Zealand back in the nineties. Best I remember it, guy lines up in a bright yellow tri five Chev four door, think he was going for the gasser look it was sitting up there. Blower out the bonnet and gets into on the start line big time, and then she just let go straight out out the bottom. BB car if I recall, don't recall seeing again either, back home to explain that 2 the Mrs aye! Man, felt for him, that's like more than twenty years ago.
The main issue with hot rodding a Pontiac was the unavailability of good racing parts and the scarcity of factory go-fast parts. Chevrolet made these parts available from the factory or over the counter and stole the show. Forged cranks? Unavailable unless you can find a used 62-63 990 crank of which only 2000 were made. I got lucky and snagged one from PJ Heck in Ohio. Forged rods? Your choices were the early SD forged rods that were called rubber rods for a reason, or the 73-74 SD 455 rods that were impossible to buy unless you owned one of those engines - and even if you could get them they were way heavy. RA4 heads? Bring your wallet. RA5 stuff? Unobtainium unless you were well connected. The main bearing sizes (3 or 3 1/4 inch) were an impediment to high RPMs because of oiling. 4 bolt blocks were rare. So what’s left? Some very good factory parts that could take you deep into the 11s as long as you used good rod bolts (I had Nunzi’s rod bolts installed) and you watched the RPMs. A 400 was generally good for 6,000 or a little more while the 455 was good for 5,500 RPM. A rev limiter is a must to keep the engine alive. If you want the recipe Jim Hand has a very nice book showing you how to maximize stock parts. He has a safari wagon that flew on the drag strip using stock parts. The bad reputation you mentioned happened when people installed 4.56 gears and then over revved the engine resulting in broken rods. Pontiacs are torque monsters and they don’t have to spin high to make good power. Forged rods and cranks and light forged pistons eventually became available but it was far too late. Pontiac was a niche player by then. Back in the day I ran a d port headed stock bottom end 455 in a trans am for years and years and eventually got it into the 11s. It had 3.55 gears in the diff and weighed about 3,700 lbs. There was nothing exotic about that engine - it had heavy TRW forged pistons, heads that I had ported myself, headers, a comp cams “racing” hydraulic flat tappet cam, an edelbrock performer RPM intake, and a Holley 750 which was probably too small. Of course, it had stock cast rods. I wasn’t connected to anyone in the industry and I didn’t have a pile of money so I didn’t have any exotic parts, but I sure had some fun! I hated to see Pontiac cancelled, but by then it’s previous identity as the performance division of GM was long gone.
Been a huge Pontiac fans since I was a kid (now 66). The 60s was definitely their decade in many ways. Much of what you discussed I did not know as I never got into a higher level of high performance cars. I just thought that Chevy won outright because of their great small block (and offering a big block) and also being the #1 division of GM. I always wanted a 421. Currently looking for my 17th Pontiac, a 67 Grand Prix (428) or a 71-72 Grand Prix (455). Thanks for the story.
Growing up through the '50s & '60s, I remember a very distinct problem Pontiac V8s had you didn't mention. Clacking valvetrain. It was extremely common throughout the '60s. You would be standing somewhere, parking lot, crosswalk, whatever, anywhere a car would slow up to stop and you'd hear clack, clack, clack, clack and you wouldn't even have to look, you would just say, oh, a Pontiac, then look over to the racket and sure enough, it was a Pontiac. I always figured it was oiling issues that put a strain on the valve train, which in turn put a strain on the timing chain and gears which caused the plastic timing gears to break down ending up in the oil pickup screen, which caused a restriction to the oil pump causing even less oil to the valvetrain. These weren't cold engines either, they were fully warmed up and clacking. Not old junk but relatively new cars, 4-5 years old with way less than 100,000 miles.
OMG. Anthony, why am I just getting this video? You and your outlook, and opinions with Pontiacs are a refreshing change. Been a loyal (Royal) Poncho fan since Nunzi, and H-O, early 70s. Knew all about their short comings, and adhered to them. Still have a couple decades of HPP mags, that I finally gave up my subscriptions due to the material fade. I miss the days, and the future looks so dismal. But all I can say to you, is..."Thanks for the memories.". (Got shirts to sell?)
I started with Pontiac engines back in the 80s, drag raced them for years, ran mid 10s with a 455 in a 67 Firebird. But Pontiac parts are expensive and alot less choices. Also built Oldsmobile and Buick engines for a while. Very expensive and limited choices. But I eventually faced reality and started building bigblock Chevys and smallblock Chevys. There's alot of reasons why Chevys are so popular.
I have to disagree with the statement concerning the big-block Chevrolet. It was widely known, even back in the 1970s, that the Ford 351 Cleveland, when equipped with the closed-chamber 4V heads as it was in 1970 and 71 would produce more power per cubic inch (when modified/tuned) than any other V-8 engine. The engine was designed with one purpose in mind, and that was to outperform the Mopar 340 and Chevrolet 350 Its tall block variants were the last overhead valve engines designed and built by Ford until the introduction of the 7.3 "Godzilla" engine for F-250 and larger trucks 3 years ago. The big-block Chevrolet had the inherent fault of having unequal length intake runners, which had a negative effect on performance. Neither Mopar or Ford engines suffered from that issue.
@@UncleTonysGarage Were YOU involved in automotive repair and modification in the 70s? I WAS. The fact is, what I posted was a known fact when you were still a kid. If you were racing with a displacement limit.....Clevelands of some variation were winning. In NHRA and IHRA, it was a big-inch Chrysler Hemi variant. In NASCAR it was a stock displacement Chrysler "late Hemi" They absolutely dominated. Chevrolet didnt even get close Just the facts. Tell YOUR story to Richard Petty., or anyone setting top fuel/funny car records with Hemi variants...see if THEY agree. You know quite a lot, and some of what you say makes sense...BUT..you dont know it all.
Don, I got thrown out of HS in 1977 and went directly to work as a mechanic...had my first shop at 19, so yes I was very involved in auto repair and modifications in the 70's. I lost my first license before I ever got one for street racing tickets. As for Hemi variants, I was very involved in Fuel racing from 1988 until 1999, so I know a few things about that also. Intermingled through all of that was some Super Stock Hemi experience. I can tell you first hand, beyond any doubt, that the only place the 426 Hemi is truly dominant is when a huge amount of liquid fuel has to be BLOWN through it. The Chevy has a MUCH more N/A, gasoline friendly combustion chamber.
@@UncleTonysGarage I see you deleted my comment explaining why a Hemi is superior to a BBC. Thats pretty chicken shit, but despite what you think, there ARE people who know more than you do, and have been involved with engines longer than you have, especially when it involves learning the physics concerning internal combustion engines, and it looks like I might be one of them. One of the first things I learned in internal combustion physics....Volumetric efficiency rules. In fairness, its not just you...there are many people making TH-cam videos, and when they are wrong, they get called out too. I get it..your pride took a hit. Mine has too....when I was younger and didnt know.....but thought I did.
I didn't delete any comments from you. Listen, I never claimed to know everything, but I'll state straight up, I know more than most. Saying "volumetric efficiency rules" is the same as saying "gravity is good", or "ice is cold". It's the MANAGEMENT of that efficiency that translates to work, and in that case the BB Chevy does a better job. As I said, I do have some hands on Super Stock Hemi experience, but I also spent a good bit of time around John Baughman and Ray Barton back in the 90's and wrote about these topics extensively in SSDI and Drag Racing Monthly as well as a couple of Mopar only magazines of the day. Believe whatever you choose to my friend, and build whatever makes you happy. These days, things like hopping up lowly Slant Sixes and 318's are what keeps me interested. As for the rest of it...been there, done it, got the T shirt and moved on.
I'm an old HPP subscriber so I have some of Tony's writings in my collection, along with a photo spread of my old 74 SD Formula in one issue. UTG is breaking down some very good, semi-mystical topics from The Era that old car guys like me are still pondering. I'm a long-time SD-455 guy and have spoken with Nunzi on occasion back in the day. I hope UTG does a future video discussing the other Pontiac issues alluded to in this video (oiling, mains) and other topics related to the 455-HO, SD, and RA IV.
So much here. Those rods kept Pontiac out of the marine business. And, in the 60's, a lot of hot parts came out of the marine catalogs. Top tier Pontiac motors would eat you up on the street, but there were few of them. Goats running Road Runners all day long, but no killer cars. My cousin had a 57 Ford 2-door with a 383 and TQFlyte out of a wrecked police car that would run away and hide on most folks. Mopar into a Ford was not common, but not unheard of. Could not stick big Chevy V8's in Fords unless you went to an Econoline front axle swap and nuked the cross member. Way to much work for most folks. But 383, 413, 440 into a mid to late 50's Ford, not a ton of work. Why, because 1 the FE had worse oiling issues, and 2 they were expensive to make go fast. Could be done, but only if you get Holman & Moody parts, and that was tough ...
Always Ford’s problem, not building enough of the good stuff. When they did get it right (351 Cleveland) , the sanctioning bodies cut their nuts off with restrictions. Always about Chevrolet first in pro stock then in NASCAR. It’s not Fords fault they were building aerodynamic bubbles and GM was building boxes
Yes, I had run several Pontiac engines and I always got 7 & 8 connecting rods go through the oil pan. Unfortunately, they were expensive to rebuild so I went to a sbc in my GTO. Ran it on a road coarse for years and never looked back. Gotta admit, those Pontiac engines had good low end grunt though.
You were over revving them. If you feel like everything has to go 7000rpm then the chevy is right for you.. ;) I made around 540hp, nearly 600ftlbs with a D port headed 455, had all of $2700 in it back in 1996. $1500 of that was having Butler port the heads, install guides and stainless valves. It ran for 10 years, 12.0s with a 4.10 gear, 11.40s with a 3.42 gear, and a stock converter. Shifting it at 5800 so the trans shifted at 6000. I have broken two of them, one was because someone dumped lead shot in the valve cover, one found its way to number #7 rod journal, the other someone dumped gravel down the carb, bent five valves and dropped #1 intake valve, which it then promptly shoved through the head in two places and punched a nice hole in the piston. I have a 400 that has been in eight vehicles I own, including my 76 C10. Its sitting on a stand waiting for me to finish building a car for it, might end up in the 71 Formula 400, it was in that thing back in 1999. A 455 I built in 1995 for $1800 with cast pistons that is still running. It pushed my 4100lb 70 GTO into the 12.60s with a 2.93 gear shifting at 5500. Yes two nine three, not a typo. It was 8.8:1 compression and ran the same with a stock intake, RPM, or performer on it. Ran the same with a 2004R and a Th400 too.
I would Like to hear your input on why Oldsmobile didn't do better. Buick and Olds were more upscale than Chevy, the Cutlass hit out out of the park in the late 60's and early 70's. Olds had a better 350 engine than Chevy with the W31. The 455 W30 was a great engine and Olds had developed the Hemi 455 that would have gone into production if the bottom hadn't fallen out of the muscle car in 71.
One word that spelled certain doom for that brands performance image and success during the 60's...its name. OLDsmobile. It did not matter what they put under the hood or how stylish the cars were, the name scared off a huge population of the "youth" market. In the 60's youth image was EVERYTHING. Hard to understand that today, but it was the reality of the era.
@@UncleTonysGarage It makes sense to a certain degree, hence the slogan "it's not your father's Oldsmobile" but Olds was number 1 in the late 70's & 80's outselling Chevy and Ford, in 86 Cutlass sold 600k and from there GM ran them into the ground. The Cutlass followed the LeMans/GTO plan and by the late 60's outstripped Pontiac and closed in on Chevy. Oldsmobile was a leader with the Toronado, their partnership with Hurst was legendary, and influenced other manufactures to partner with Hurst to sell cars. I think that like some have posted GM couldn't let Chevy be upstaged and over time set plans in motion to keep Chevy in the forefront even when they were the lesser star.
@@americanpatrol4603 Olds had a problem with the 350 Diesel engine in the 80's with head gaskets as well as the Quad 4 head issues, but the 350 to 455 didn't have that issue, they used a higher nickel content until mid 70's and never had the issues with their blocks that other makes had, I pulled many olds engines apart and the blocks would still have cylinders with cross hatch with no visual wear after 30 and 35 years on the road.
@@455cutlass I think this hearkens back to the dawn of the muscle car era and not to its glory years and eventual fade-out. But namaste. By venturing this opinion I've clearly gotten into a subject which you undoubtedly care a lot more about than I do. My understanding was always that the Olds was a hot ticket in the early 50s but the pentagonal head bolt designs of later engines caused the foursquare Olds to fade away. Never owned one personally. I tend to find value and unique features among all brands I have owned over the years, but my favorite car of the moment was always the one that had gas in the tank and a battery that could crank the engine without a jump.
Wow you nailed it right on the head 👍🏻your knowledge of this awesome era of raw muscle cars , please don’t stop this outstanding channel 😊😊😊😊any time I need something figured out I watch your channel, heck even solve some arguments over this and that … I just whip out an uncle Toms garage video and there ya go bro solved 🎉😊
What you're saying makes sense for back in the 60's and 70's. But the story for Pontiac I feel gets a lot more complex in the 80's and to their end. That last prototype Fiero if that had hit the streets what might have happened? And the fwd daily drivers to this day still look modern and are sought after. If anything was the downfall of Pontiac it was the rule that nothing can be better than the Vette.
I knew about the Pontiac cast rods and - just not in so many words - about the pyramid with racers at the apex and people-who-just-bought-stock-muscle-cars-and-drove-them at the foundation. V.Good explanation of Pontiac in the History of The Muscle Car Era !
What doesn't make sense to me: If the rod was THE weak link, then I would expect that would be the very FIRST thing the aftermarket would address. To me there are 2 reasons Pontiac faded: 1) The V8 peaked too early. Other divisions (Buick, Olds) came out with 2nd gen engine designs during the mid-to-later 60's, and this carried them through the 70's and stumbled into the 80's. With the introduction of the 389 with thin wall castings in 1959, Pontiac planted themselves with this and continued upgrading this 1959 engine. Later when they needed a new generation of engine design it was too late. 2) Simply put, CPC. In 1984 Pontiac was folded into the Chevrolet-Pontiac-Canada Group of GM, which was nothing less than the complete takeover of Pontiac by Chevrolet. Pontiac was now just an empty brand name with no substance behind it. Pontiac was a thorn in Chevy's side all through the 60's. GM has a self imposed 50% market share limit to avoid being broken up under Anti-Trust laws, and Chevy alone had 25% market share. So for Pontiac to be successful and sell more cars meant that Chevrolet had to sell fewer cars. And Pontiac was in a STRONG 3rd place passing Plymouth and nipping at Ford's heels. This was bringing Chevy down lessening the gap between Chevy and Ford. Chevy couldn't have that. And what Chevy wanted they simply went whining to GM corporate management to get their way.
I think the start of the death of Pontiac was with the Fiero. They put it out that they're targeting 50 mpg in it and then it got a bad reputation of being a fire hazard. That fire hazard was a big reason they stopped production after dumping a whole lot of cash into it - but they didn't ever admit that. Then the Solstice - which was a parts-bin sports car with Cavalier parts in it.
Personally, My Pontiac WTF is this turning moment was around 1990, the first time I encountered a Daewoo made Pontiac Lemans. I literally felt sick to my stomach in disbelief that GM would ever do such a thing to the LeMans badge. Add to that how GM had replaced the Firebird's identity with a sbc. About that time most all Pontiacs became nothing but rebadged and plastic clad Chevys, so why even bother? Aztec was the final nail IMO. Strangely, I thought as ugly as the Aztec was, it's sibling, the Buick Rendezvous was even uglier, and they made those for a long time.
My first car, Pontiac GTO, learned by reading...don't go for rpms ... the main bearing were also large and generated friction. Be efficient, gear for 1/4 mile, get your car to launch cleanly. Has three, including a 64 4spd. Loved that car. I was a lousy mechanic, my best neighborhood mechanic moved away. I ended up with an RD400, I could work on it and had a great mechanic. Loved that bike too.
Loved those little Yammies, I owned an RD350 and drooled over the 400 'Daytona Special'. But for straight line terrorizing, you couldn't beat a Kaw triple H3/H4.
I had a 421 SD with a M/T cross ram. When it spun a bearing back in the mid 70s, I was able to get the 455SD forged rods. They were much heavier as you know. They added 3 and 1/2'of Mallory metal to the crank to balance the assembly. THe engine was bored .120 to 434 c.i. prior . I spun that engine to 7200rpm several times . I did use H.O. racing guide and installed a mellings oil pump and had a deeper 7 quart ? oil pan. 68 Firebird. Those rods were impressive...just like your vast knowledge Tony! Cheers
Some very interesting comments. Pontiac for sure with that big low end torque made for a great street runner. I always remember a friend had a tired 1972 Pontiac Grandville. Huge boat of a car but tired as the 400 V8 engine was, you could still spin 'em easily at half throttle taking off from the stoplight. I truly wish I'd bought that car back in the day, tired as it was. I was just a little concerned because I knew how much my friend had abused the poor thing over the years.
Back in the early 70's a classmate with 66 Tempest blew up at least three 389's before finally installing a 400 that lasted a few years before he sold it.
Given your history with the fox Mustangs, could you talk about the resurgence & aftermarket support for the roller 5.0 ford in the 80’s & 90’s as an episode in your history lessons? As a Ford fan I was so excited back then that we finally had a chance against all of those sbc powered cars. We finally had affordable performance parts & a better chassis to compete with factory & aftermarket support.
My dad said that was the issue with his 74 SD455. He threw the number 5 rod in the original 455. He swapped in a 400 and swapped parts over. Threw another rod! I don't remember which. One complaint I have about BOP is not many 4 bolt mains. I'd love a 4 bolt main for my Olds 455. More ease of mind like the oiling issues. You still can't kill my love for old brand X big blocks. One day I'd like to play with a Rocket Racing block. Edit: You'd not like the newer 4cyl in Chevys lol. They like blowing head gaskets and lots of fragile parts.
First car was 70 Lemans, bought it in 79, I was 14, had a 400/4sp. After a brief 396 swap ended with a spun bearing, the 400 went back in. That engine was built by somebody, had a sleeved cylinder I'd guess from a rod. Whom ever rebuilt it installed forged steel rods. I assumed from a pre 63 engine but have no idea if that was the case. It had 7K3 heads with screw in studs, the studs outa the blown 396 was my cheap adjustable valve conversion. Then it would reallywind up, lifters pumped up like crazy before. Never blew it, pretty sure it would've with stock rods.
Tony is exactly right about the connecting rods. It was by design, not Pete Estes, John Delorean, Bunkie Knudsen or Herb Adams design, they were trying to get corporate to OK forged rods. Olds, Buick and chevy had them, but corporate said no. Why would GM do that? Well...
Every Pontiac VIN since the 60s starts with a 2. The chevys have a vin starting with 1. That was based on the pecking order of who sold the most vehicles. GM wanted chevy to be the largest manufacturer, and they wanted the Corvette to be top dog. Pontiac started selling too many vehicles, especially with the GTO, but going back to 1962 they were getting close to beating chevy numbers. The 421s and 389s were dominating racing, and racing was selling.
In 1963, the year the mystery motor came out in the Corvette, which we all know as the 427 big block now, a lowly 63 Tempest put a hurting on everyone, and embarrassed not only chevy's Corvette, but also Ferrari, BMW, Porsche, and everyone else... in a freakin road race.
The car from My Cousin Vinny that was confused with the Buick Skylark in mint green metallic with a white top was the 63 Tempest/LeMans... and this one in the race had a 421 stuffed in where a 326 usually was. Independent rear suspension which proved it was not kids driving the Buick that robbed the sack o suds, and a flexible driveshaft with a rear trans axle... which is eerily like the C6/C7 Corvette, which is what Leeroy the Savage is.
The Tempest lapped the Corvettes several times, not just once. It ran away from them like they were pushing their Corvettes and sports cars on foot then rolling them down hills. Utterly obliterated them, it was several minutes between 1st place and 2nd in the finish times. This was not lost on GM and chevy, some crazy guys just made them all look like chumps, with a grandpa looking car using its goofy flexible driveshaft. I am sure many things were thrown around the C suite that week, including spicy expletives.
GM's solution to slowing down the Pontiac was cast rods, which limited RPM. You can make incredible torque, earth moving power, tectonic plate shifting grunt, but spinning a 400 over 6300rpm or a 455 over 6000rpm usually meant a rod was going to be slinging its beam around whacking the camshaft, block, lifter bores, oil pan... etc. That is what happened to both engines I had where a rod decided to come apart, and neither were due to RPM, they were both sabotaged. (chevy guys don't like losing to cars that sound like they "are on a trip to the store for a loaf of bread." as one chevy friend of mine said it)
Trust me, you can make ludicrous power under 5800 with a Pontiac using the stock rods, iron heads, and factory intakes, and they will live for decades doing it. 500ftlbs from just above idle to 5000 is VERY easy to achieve, especially with compression and porting.
The problem is, most people think they have to spin an engine to make power, because they are used to short runner, bit lazy port sbcs and Fords. You need to spin those things to the moon to make power, because they lack torque under 4000rpm.
What do most people do? They throw some 4.10 to 5.13 gears in the back, a 4000 stall, single plane intake, 250@.050 or bigger duration cams, big headers and spin the snot out of the poor little chevy things. When you do that with a Pontiac, even if you have forged rods in the bottom end, it goes slower and its particularly prevalent with the 455 and 428. They do not like lots of RPM, they are not designed to make the power up top, they make it EVERYWHERE ELSE. So when people do that, they can't figure out why it goes so slow, then it blows up.
So when you put a 3.73 to 5 something gear behind a Pontiac, you are moving it through the RPM range too fast in each gear, 6k shows up real fast with a 4.10 gear, 29" tall slicks, and a 455 making nearly 600ftlbs at 3000rpm. I did that to slow the thing down from 11.40s with a 3.42 to 4.10s running 12.0s to avoid putting a roll bar in, because I was broke in the 90s.
When you put a 2.93 to 3.55 gear behind it, you keep the engine in its RPM range where its making all that torque for a much longer time. The engine is grunting so hard it doesn't care what gear is behind it, its either going to shove the car down the track or its going to destroy the Th400 or tires behind it. That dip from 1st to 2nd in a 700R4 because of the 3.06 first gear? Yeah a 455 doesn't give a damn and a 400 is amused by it.
Using a 4000 stall when you have to shift at 5800 is wasting all that RPM and torque below 4000, so the car goes slower, not quicker. Make it work, let it eat, and the Pontiac will throw you back in the seat with a 3.08 gear.
Its the long runners that are kinda small for a 400 and definitely small for a 455, that limit the RPM due to airflow but make so freakin much velocity. A 455 will just stop pulling with ported iron heads at 6000rpm. That small but long port moves air VERY FAST, they are high *velocity* ports because of the Bernoulli effect of air speeding up when it goes through a necked down place or a long runner.
Putting a single plane intake on effectively shortens the intake port, and it kills bottom end, but the ports are not sized to flow air at high RPM, so it doesn't pick any up on top. The single plane intake usually makes a Pontiac powered vehicle slower... usually.
245@.050 is about the biggest you want to go with iron heads. Do you know what happens when you take that long high velocity intake port and make it flow more air? It makes MORE torque EVERYWHERE in the RPM range, and over 310cfm you open the door to 7000rpm. Now imagine if you will, an engine that is making 650ftlbs at 2500, and carrying it through to nearly 6500 and is still making 500ish ftlbs at 7000rpm... and doing it without a power adder. That my friends is one of my higher end Pontiac engines, and yes it has a single plane intake on it.
Sure you can spin it to 7000, but why bother? All it will do is wear the engine out faster, put a 3.00-3.50 gear behind it and let it do its thing as you shift it at 6500. Keep up on the valve spring maintenance and it will last decades.
You have to think different with a Pontiac, or a Caddy as they too are low RPM engines. It is far better to take an engine and make it do what it is designed to do better, than it is to try to make it do something it was not designed to do. Make the Pontiac or Caddy make even more torque rather than trying to spin them up real tight.
That 11.40 car with a 455? Yeah it was a $2700 rebuild, $1500 of it was getting the heads ported and new valves put in, TRW slugs, ARP rod bolts, and since the RPM was not out yet, and would not fit under the hood anyway, it had a Torker II single plane on it. The car was a 1979 Formula, weighed 3750lbs without my 230lb ass in it, had a stock L88 converter (1900 stall) and a 228/231/109 hydraulic cam in it. I moved the shifter at 5800 and the trans shifted as it hit 6000. 1.59 sixty foots on 9" wide slicks, 1.70 on drag radials, and it would move the tire a quarter inch around the rim on launch... with a 3.42 gear and no power adder other than the 11.3:1 compression.
The same top end from the 90s era Formula is in my 65 GTO and it is 3400lb with me in it. It has a 455 with an Eagle crank kit under the heads, and that thing runs hard. Its a daily driver to me, and if the bird ran 11.40s weighing right at 4000 going down the track, I figure the 65 should run at least that quick since its lighter. I have $4200 in that engine, because it has a $1100 hydraulic roller cam in it, but it would run about the same with a $75 Summit 2802 cam, which is about the same size. 224/228/112.
More is not always better, sometimes less in certain areas gets you more.
Hell. I should make a video and just read all of this into the mic then add pictures.
You DO need to make a video out of that!
I think the gap between 1st and 2nd at Daytona was 20 laps if I remember correctly.
Just wondering if you have ever seen the odd forged rods that have been found in 1964 421 cars.
@@UncleTonysGarage I second that the idea of that Olds/Buick video and let's throw in Cadilac and the engines of other divisions.
Partially correct. Pontiac VINs since 1965 start with a "2". Prior to that, they do not. Cadillac VIN #s in some of the 1960s do not follow the "divisional order" VIN type sequence. That was normalized later on. Also partially correct on Chevrolet VIN numbers. They did not always start with "1" in the 1960s either.
Back in 1974 my dad had a '70 GTO "Judge" with the Ram Air 4 engine and 4spd. One evening, two guys in a '69 Chevelle SS 396 came up beside him and started taunting him to race. So he let the old goat "eat" and took it all the way up to 140mph blowing the Chevelle's doors off. He happened to look down at his gauges and noticed that every needle, including the oil pressure gauge was pointing at zero. He then looked in his rearview mirror and saw nothing but smoke. When he coasted to the side of the road, the Chevelle blew by with the two guys hooting & hollering and laughing their asses off. He said there was oil covering the entire decklid of his GTO all the way up to the rear window. He got a 428 replacement engine out of an old Bonneville, and when he took the 400 out he had blown four connecting rods straight through the block and oil pan. He always wondered why an engine would grenade so violently when running in high gear, but I guess this maybe explains it. He also assumed the Chevelle was not an L78 375hp version, as there were very few of those around and even a Ram Air 4 400 most likely could not beat one of those. Anyway, I thought I'd share this story, as it seems somewhat relevant to the topic of the video.
It was generally the 3-in mains that made them it's just like a berry go round in the park you sit in the Middle East day on you go to the outside and wants to throw you off same thing with the oil in a Pontiac motor that's why the newer Pontiacs they race use big block Chevy journal sizes
@@jimfrancis2624 nah, its just RPM, and people revving them beyond where they are actually making power. The 3" mains aren't a problem. The main reason most of us go to bbc journal sizes is because in the 90s the bbc rods were cheaper than forged 6.625" Pontiac rods, and we could use 6.8" rods with a $500 set of pistons. Back then forged 6.625" rods were $1200 a set or more.
He wondered about a RA IV beating an L78.. yeah, the IV would stomp an L78, provided it was running right. The L78 had what, 11:1 compression and a 242@.050 solid cam, but the guys who raced the IVs 50 years ago said no 396 was a problem for them, despite less compression, smaller cams, and less gearing.
Most people who bought IV engines thought they were daily driver mills like the D ports, but they required some maintenance and someone who knows what they are doing. Take them to a chevy dealer and it won't come back right.
A friend of mine is the original owner of a 69 RA IV 4 speed Judge, the original engine is on a stand in his shop. He was not the type who wanted to work on the car every couple weeks or so, he took it to the shop.
IV heads and cam on a 428 or 455 is a very simple combination that results in an 11 second car even if it weighs 4000lbs. But you shift it at 6000rpm, not 6500, not 7000, not 7500... unless you have forged rods in it, which like I said earlier were expensive until recently. There is no need to spin a Pontiac that high unless you have worked aftermarket heads on it that will flow enough air to support that large of an engine at that high of an RPM.
It takes a 572 bbc to match the torque of a D port 455. Its all in the port length and velocity.
Ram Air 400 was one of the best engines ever made.
I believe it : we were in a blazer going 110 and the gto went around us like we were standing still . I still remember the wide tires on the back that gto flopping around. It had the 400 engine .
I like Uncle Tony. It’s obvious that he has a penchant for Mopars. However, he brings out the highlights of other OEMs. He’s very knowledgeable. I had a 1969 Ram Air 3 firebird my senior year of high school. #62 heads and 068 cam. It had tremendous torque and ran mid 13’s back in 1989. Pontiacs were all known for their inherent torque. The small port heads created a faster velocity. They were never intended to exceed the HP max on the power curve; usually around 5300ish rpms. That goes for Buicks and especially big block Olds. GM A bodies were heavy cars and GM engineers needed torque to move them. If you look at various muscle car curb weights, you’ll find that the Mopar unibodies, as large as they appear, were about the same weight as a Nova or Camaro. I always wanted to find a set of 7H3 or HO round port heads.
The first engine I built was a 400 Pontiac. Used a book called "How to build a Superstock Pontiac". It focused on the 400/428/455 engines. It was written in 1980. Still have it today and I bought it new. I used to buy Pontiac 400/428/455 core engines to build for $50 bucks each. Could get the T400 that was bolted to it for another $25 bucks. Them were the days. I once bought a RA 3 400 from a 70 Formula that was wrecked, paid $125 bucks for that unit. Already had a Torker intake & 800 DP Holley on it, a Mallory dual point distributor, and a RA 4 cam with 1.65 rockers installed. Also had a pair of Hooker Headers on it. Hell of a deal. Engine didn't have 10,000 miles on it.
This man is a walking encyclopedia of us auto history. He is to engines what the Steve Magnante is to chassis.
I knew someone that once owned a '73 Pontiac Ventura "Sprint".
He transplanted a stock 455 from a 1970 Boneville, kept the Saginaw because he couldn't locate a Muncie Rock Crusher, kept the 3:08 rear. Think it was 375 HP 525 ftlbs torque. Stock.
Nothing could touch it on the street and he only needed to shift up to 4,500 RPM for that car to take care of business. It handled remarkably well and flat around corners and it idled so smooth.
It had the functional/optional Trans Am shaker and Ralley gauges that I found accidentally at the savage yard purchasing a fender for my '77 Bronco and gifted him the shaker and gauges on his birthday which was on the same day of finding it.
Good looking car.
Yes, the rods were the weak link in the Pontiac V8. I have been racing and building Pontiac’s since the early 80’s and learned early on that they will live a long life when the big end is properly machined to less than .0005 out of round, and good rod bolts are used. My last 455 made 600 hp with stock cast rods. After 11 years of 1/4 mile racing it finally wore out #1 rod bearing. Didn’t break anything, just started knocking after a pass. I should have freshened it up after 5 or 6 years but I was trying to see how far I could push a stock bottom end. Now I know. 😁
600hp was the sweet spot 😆
the Pontiac guys I know say it wasnt the rods but the rod bolts were the weak link.
Was it the rods or the fact that the structure of the block would flex all over the place. The block was like butter in the Pontiac engines it moved all over the place.
@@jeremypike9153 you're thinking Buick, they flex like crazy, the Pontiac is a lot stronger. The only weak links in them are the rods and some of the lifter bores, but the bores aren't a problem unless you are running a solid roller with around .700 lift or more.
The rods snap when the big end tries to pull the piston back down the bore, too much RPM stretches then then they snap. I've seen it a lot when chevy guys drive a Pontiac.
@@jeremypike9153 The blocks are fine up to around 750-800+ Hp then they eventually will crack from the main saddle up towards the cam tunnel.
Reminds me of a neighbor I once had that was a Vietnam Vet. He told me about how when he got back from Vietnam and he used his savings to buy a GTO off the showroom floor. Said it would walk all over everything he raced against. Could flat foot it down a straight road and the speedo would spin round, around when you topped it out. I asked, "What happened to it?". He said, "Threw a rod....".
Pontiac equals?
P-oor
O-ld
N-egro
T-hought
I-t's
A
C-adillac
@@jorgecallico9177 Can you take you racist remarks somewhere else? This is totally uncalled for and in no way funny. Thank you.
@@RustOnWheels You can take you PC somewhere else. This from a Pontiac guy.
@@jorgecallico9177 FORD Found on road, dead. GMC Gotta mechanic coming. FIAT Fix it again Tony.
@@RustOnWheels It's called a joke if you don't like then go watch the CNN TH-cam channel so you and the libtards can feel safe in you're safe zone.
I have every single issue of "High Performance Pontiac" magazine. Started collecting car magazines back in 1978. Have thousands now, a whole small building full. Stopped buying them about 7-8 yrs ago. Learned alot about engines and building cars by reading everything that pertained to cars that I could find. I miss those days.
You're a bad mofo, sir.
Ending was hilarious! Yes, Pontiac's OEM rods were weak, but Oliver had strong forged replacement rods for them. That's what most folks around me down in Georgia used. I used to put those Oliver rods in small block Chevys, and Wiseco made pistons to run. The longer length did wonders for wear on the blocks of the dirt track engines we built with them. Today's kids have it made, with all the stroker kits and such. lol.
so true.....had to know your stuff and a good machinst back then.....dieing off sadly.
Yeah we have it made alright. Apparently you guys haven’t seen the going price for parts these days. Hot ridding is a rich man’s hobby unless you repurpose used parts for the entire build.
I've kept all my "High Performance Pontiac" mags ! I flat out loved Pontiac . Thanks Tony.
Pontiac it's in my blood,My grandparents work for Pontiac motor division for 40 years grandma made ring gears, Grandpa made transmission gears. I was born in Pontiac orthopedic hospital Pontiac Michigan. Rode home from the hospital in Mom's '57 Pontiac chieftain that she used to race out at the old Pontiac airport. And on Friday and Saturday nights would race stop light to stop light out on Woodward. One of my first memories is standing on the hump between the bucket seats holding onto the bucket seats as Mom is racing from light to light on Woodward in Dad's brand new 62 Tempest 4 cylinder 4 barrel 4 speed. She'd walk a Thunderbird like it was standing still. I have had '64 '65 '66 GTO's a 66 tempest with the 6 cylinder and three-speed convertible. A 67, 68,69, 70, 71, 74,75 firebirds, my graduation present was a 77 trans Am, 68,69 LeMans and a 70 T-37. 2 two 68 catalinas. And a 69 Bonneville.
Howlingmad Mudduck That's a lot of Pontiac in your history!
Damn bro!
You truly are a pontiac American!! Damn lol!
Back in the late 60's, early 70's i walked past 4 car dealers, Ford, Pontiac, AMC and Chrysler on my way to school, after school i would check all the hot cars at every dealer, i remember the day a new blue trans am was unloaded, and a few days later a white one, both were 400 4 speeds, those were the days.
When GM had to downsize, I was sorry to see Pontiac go.
By killing one v8 engine family and let 2 more live (buick, olds)for some reason. If they really wanted to downsize they could have made a single corperate engine.
@@sneff1052 That's exactly what they did do, though. By the time GM killed Pontiac most of what they offered was a rebadged Chevy. The G8 was a unique chassis, but it had an LS3, the G5 was a cobalt, the Vibe was a damn Toyota... Pontiac didn't have their own engines anymore at that time, it was all corporate parts bin stuff. Pontiac hadn't had their own engines for a decade or more when they were killed. Oldsmobile
died before Pontiac, too if I'm not
mistaken...
I wasn't that sad, and I am a HUGE Pontiac fan. When the V8 went away in 1979, Pontiac died. I still like the styling and I prefer to drive 1998-2006 Gran Prix as winter beaters, plus I have a 1998 Formula with an LS1 in it that I love to drive... but they are a trim package to me.
I cried a lil in 75 when the cat was used on em..
@@SweatyFatGuy Technically, the last Pontiac V8 was 1981, not 1979, although 1979 was the last year for the 400 V8, and it was only used with a manual transmission in the F body cars (I have a 10th Anniversary 400/4 speed). The 1980-1981 Pontiac V8s were the 301 four barrel, VIN code "W", RPO code "L37" or the 301 four barrel turbocharged, VIN code "T" RPO code "LU8" (I have an '80 Turbo also). The 301 wasn't anything performance wise like the 400 was, but it was "right" for the times given what GM had to deal with.
I have really enjoyed this series on different manufacturers. You hit it out of the park. Thanks again.
I've got a set of 1962 NASCAR SD421 forged steel rods that I'm hanging onto for just the right build! I've had them since 1984.
Leave them on a shelf. A $500 set of eagle rods are peace of mind
The newer rods are lighter and stronger.
You sound like me. Since I dropped Pontiac (budget reasons) I went to Chevy. I'm using a block I picked up in '88 just now... building a 383 for a drag C3 corvette. Old school with left over carb (too small just a 750 - but its what I have).
About the same time I picked up a 440hp block and a low milage 383 block.... still sitting in my parents basement annoying my mother for 30+ years.
The historical background comments are great! I have a 1978 Trans Am with a Butler 455 in it and a 1964 Sport Fury with a 426 wedge. Both are a hoot to drive. I now understand how things are the way they are.
In high school , mid 60s, had a 65 Catalina 2+2 , 421 super duty. Foolishly had just a slight idea of what I had. That car was a beast- it would run side by side with the 396 ss , which the car nobody could touch. And, as usual, wish I had that wide track Pontiac back..
421SD could take care anything.
The 455 that came in the 1973 Trans Am had premium internals that addressed the shortcomings but was waay to late for the musclecar wars.
Yeah the SD 455, but to late.
@@warrenlucier5796 The main s were too big, 3-3.25 mains have so much bearing speed.
The 3-3.25 main killed them with the cast rods.
@@warrenlucier5796 SD455 had a cast crank.
Only the 455 SDs did.
I have a 63 SD 421 Catalina sitting on a trailer. It blew up back in 1970. And it came with forged rods. Gonna build a stroker 67 400 for it. Of course it'll have aftermarket rods and crank in it. Pontiac engines can run, just gotta build them right.
Really loving this muscle car evolution and analysis of each brand's shortcomings. Hope it continues.
Everybody was making excellent cars in the 60s, but I think Pontiac was absolutely killing it, and might be my pick for best overall lineup. Not only were the engines potent from the factory and the cars absolutely gorgeous, but they were exceptionally well made and comfortable. While it's hard to argue with a GTO (64 is my favorite year), I think the Grand Prix deserves a lot of credit for building a full size image car in an era of intermediate performance craze. The 65 GP in particular is a breathtaking design.
Also, Tony, your adverts are hilarious! It's good to see Crystal again too! Hope she's doing well in the busy holiday season. I was not expecting you to light the shirt on fire... but once you did, that thing really lit up! You're lucky you didn't burn the whole place down with it LOL
your story about the pontiac guy who blew his engine is funny and very relatable. My little brother put a turbo on his 1994 honda civic with the stock SOHC engine and they also have pretty weak connecting rods from the factory. He was showing off the anti-lag to his friends and ended up breaking and shooting a rod through the block in the parking lot lol.
I just today came across your TH-cam channel and I subscribed. I am absolutely delighted with the content. Let me tell you about my Trans Am that I no longer have... I bought it new in 1977 in California. It came with a 403. in 1984, at 143,000 miles the 403 started pinging and rattling and overheating. I bought an XF block from Ken Crocie of HO-Racing and converted the TA to a 455 with 96 casting cylinder heads, and a THM 400 transmission. The cast connecting rods were like Democles' sword for me (all in my mind of course). So, in 1991, for no reason except that I thought I had too much money in my pocket I ordered from Crower eight steel billet connecting rods in the standard Pontiac rod size and changed them, along with Edelbrock aluminum cylinder heads, and I put a Richmond 5 speed racing tranny in place of the THM 400. I still retained the 2.41 rear end (massaged by Tom's Differentials). With a 4.03 first gear it was an unbelievable car, with 315/40 X 16 tires and Herb Adams suspension and bars.... I cry every time I hear about Pontiacs. My car? Due to circumstances, in 2013 I gifted the car to someone who turned out to be totally unworthy of my kindness...
The connecting rods were Pontiacs achilles heel,but the problem even more so was the rod bolts. They were prone to stretching after awhile. If your building on a budget and cant afford forged rods, at the very least get good rod bolts.
My God....after 55 years, I now realize that all my collective knowledge about Mopar Uncle Tony must forget about in his sleep.
Sir, this is the reason I'm dedicated to your channel. Think I'll order some more shirts.
I had a '65 GTO 389, did all the usual stuff, cam, headers, intake and then put 421sd heads on it and grenaded it at York, Pa. Learned a real hard lesson, filled a bucket with busted rod parts and pay for oil cleanup.
I'd like to say thankyou for constantly reassuring yourself that viewers are listening and needing your content. I'm 43, and I used to have a neighbor who was a Mopar fan, and he had a 1968 chystler Road Runner gtx with a 440 and 6 pack carburetor. I always liked engines but that's who allowed me to explore it. I went to college for aircraft maintenance but didn't pursue it but I've never lost the love of understanding mechanical engineering and your experience is the key to all youths education which is something I won't have until I'm your age is what I'm lacking. I appreciate everything that you spend your time, sweat and heartache on because I'm learning things that no institution can show me. As long as you can keep up the good work. I appreciate you. Thankyou
In 1968, in Australia, my old man and his brother took the Trophy bottom end out of their totalled Bonneville and swapped it in under the Ram Air heads in their GTO - after taking a skim off each - and ran reliable, low 12s. Dad would say that every person in the pits would "enlighten" them of the likelihood that they would leave the crankshaft at the starting line of the next run, and they would just turn and say "probably."
Lol. I felt the heat from the shirt here on Staten Island. I’ve been watching your videos for quite some time now and always enjoy them. And I do so in part because I’m a Mopar guy at heart and still have my 69 Swinger I bought from a friend, on Staten Island in 1989. I do enjoy all cars and you mentioned HL on Hylan - so I figured I’d let you know that I also have an 85 Cutlass that was sold new from HL and it currently has a big block Chevy in it. It’s a blast and you’d appreciate it if you seen it. Keep the great videos coming 😉👍
I am a long time Pontiac guy and am glad to hear UT used to write for High Performance Pontiac. Now I'll have to dig my old mags and look for UT articles. Pontiac was the only one offering a car with an engine bigger than a 350ci at the end of the 70s. Even offering a Turbo motor as well. Pontiac was sporty and young buyer cars which makes it stupid why GM killed them off and is trying to make Buick the sporty division now.
1977 Oldsmobile 403 V8 was available
Yea I never understood GM’s logic but that goes for a lot of things they’ve done lol
According to Bob Lutz, the deal that GM made in 2008-2009 with the US government involved that GM had to dissolve Saturn, Hummer, Olsmobile and Pontiac.
@@GasserNorm I thought Saturn & Olds died in 2003?
Yeah, it's a shame that GM killed off Pontiac and kept Buick. I would always see way more Pontiac Grand Am and Grand Prix's on the road than almost any other vehicle. I was upset when GM killed off the F bodies in 02 and then when they dissolved Pontiac I never bought another GM product again. I just buy Mopars now
God, I f'n LOVE this channel! I learned something new with every single episode! Thank you so much for all the work that you and uncle Kathy put into it.
Don't you have any fender covers for that Satellite? Thank you for the video sir.
I really enjoyed this video and learned a lot from it. I had no idea about this cast rod deal. I owned an early 70's 400 and tortured that thing mercilessly and it never complained but it wasn't hopped up. My dad had both early to mid 60's Tempest and Catalina. I don't know what engines they had because I was younger but I do remember them going the speed of light in my kid mind when he'd get on it.
Alpha, FINALLY, you make a video about my beloved Ponchos and you're bashing on them!!! Just kidding man, you are absolutely right about the con rods, they were junk which is why exceeding the 5000 RPM redline on the regs was what we un-ironically referred to as "flirtin with disaster'. Back before we met, in the very early 80's I set about building the 'ultimate' Pontiac engine for my burgundy 4 speed 70 goat. I had figured out by then that I needed to go with a forged bottom end. As you correctly stated, there were ZERO aftermarket options in 1982, so I started with a 4 bolt ram air iii block from a buddy who had totaled his goat (flying off the end of veterans rd by the west shore expwy). I then found this guy in the back of HPP mag called 'Purely PMD' located out in New Mexico who hooked me up with forged Super Duty con rods ($800) and a 400 "armasteel" crank (not forged but supposedly stronger than cast). I also saw an ad in HPP for a set of 70 RAIV round exhaust port heads (casting 614) that a guy had in northern NJ which I also bought for a grand bare. In effect, I had built a RA IV 406 (with forged rods). Because this process took forever (several years), by the time I got it all together, I had lost some interest and never really got the chance to thrash on it @ E-town but she would have been a runner. P.S. by the time I went through my second GTO phase (mid life crisis) in the early 2000s, the aftermarket had finally caught up and it was ridiculously easy to build a NASTY Pontiac engine which I did. Used an aftermarket IA2 block forged rotating assembly and Aluminum 'wideport' heads ported by some of the best in the business - Dave Bischoff among them. TD rocker shafts, and a .775 lift solid roller. Used to sing that NA Pontiac 540 to 8 grand at the big end and not break a sweat. Was able to put the "hess truck" which I had just bought before you left for TN fairly deep in the 9s at a shade under 2 tons on the scales @ e-town with me in it. Cost an ungodly amount of scratch, and I could have gone faster for less than half if I sensibly used a BBC, but I was obsessed with doing it with an Indian under the hood. Truth be told, the only thing "stock Pontiac" was the bore spacing and water pump. Anyway, I finally achieved the dream from decades earlier of having the most badazz goat on SI. NOBODY wanted a piece of that car circa 2008...
Tony, back in the day to get away from the 63 on up factory 389 cast iron rods, we use to use 59 to 62/ 389 steel rods, then pin the lower rod cap bearing with a bronze step pin in the lower cap to help hold the rod bearing because with most of the long duration sold lifter cams ( 308* to 325* Der) we ran in the 389 & 400 4 bolt blocks as that was the best rods we had to deal with back then. This modified rod was good up to around 9,000 rpm power shifts for a while, but you had to check the center to center distance of the piston to crank all the time and re size them every year or so. The biggest problem was the soft Arma poured steel cranks were just out & out junk in the early 389s but if you knew anybody in racing, they might sell you an early forged steel 389 Super duty crank to use with the 59 to 62 pinned poured steel 389 rods. With that combo you could build a pretty dependable 10 second drag car on race gas with no NO-2. Today with Butler Pontiac you can build a strong 400 Pontiac 4 bolt R/A IV iron block twine turbo with all billet parts that do run in the 8s or faster, but at that point, it all has turned into cubic dollars anymore, and the real fun factor is all but gone. Bottom line, how fast can you spend? So sad.
Ran a 426 in a 66 'Cuda with a BFP(rybar), and in your vernacular it was a beautiful disaster. We brought two sets of bearings to the track.
My 65 GTO developed vacuum issues on the no. 4 cyl. intake. Installed after market connecting rods as a matter of course.
You're right on the Fords, especially the FEs.
Chevy was lucky when the E.P.A. cracked down with new emission laws enacted in 1968, which coincide with the roll out of Fords rollout of the 385 series (302, 351, 429, 460) so they didn't develop "go fast" parts for awhile.
You stated it very well in broad terms and the approach was the right way. You point out the strengths and weaknesses, which is the honest way to assess them. Pontiacs are not for the weak of heart. They are for those that want something different. By the 1970s, at least Pontiac still had a 400 in the Trans Am and when the Mustang went to a Pinto based vehicle and shut the performance light out, Pontiac "kept the light on for ya". Most are familiar with the Pontiac performance folks such as Annunziata "Nunzi" Romano who had a shop for years in Brooklyn, NY. He was brought a 1972 Trans Am by a magazine and asked to see what he could do with it. The writer said, "But you don't have a dyno". Mr. Romano replied with, "I don't need a friggin' dyno. I got one right here" (pointing to his heart). With some tricks and tuning, Mr. Romano woke the car up.
He was also the one to coin the phrase, "Rochester doesn't have to advertise. They sell 5 million carburetors a year". There are others that Mr. DeFeo likely knows from the HPP days such as Rocky Rotella and H-O Racing Specialties of Hawthorne, CA. Yes, Chevrolet small block and big block parts are found on every street corner, but that's what makes Pontiac better in my book. They were never a "me too" company. They always sought to be different.
When Hal Needham needed a car for Smokey in the Bandit in 1977, he didn't choose a Camaro. He chose a Pontiac Trans Am. Yes, a 1977 (although they were actually 1976 cars with 1977 front ends) Trans Am wasn't a barn burner compared to its' earlier brethren, it kept the torch lit long after everyone else shut the light off. If you wanted a fast car in 1979 that handled well, you bought a Trans Am. If you wanted to add good looks and a classic design, you bought a Trans Am. I own three Pontiacs, including a 2009 G6 convertible, which although it shares its underpinnings with a Malibu of that year, it's still unique in that only Pontiac offered a convertible version of it. I get stopped every time I'm out with it and people say, "What type of car is that?" When I tell them, they are stunned. The car costs half as much as a Mercedes Benz convertible that year and I get MB drivers stopping me asking what it was and what it cost.
If you want common as dirt, go Chevrolet V8. Not that there's anything wrong with that, as Mr. DeFeo stated. However, if you want to be different and stand out, do it as the 1979 10th Anniversary Trans Am ad said, "Very Rare, Very Well Done".
Early 60s 421SDs for NASCAR had forged rods. Hard to find, but worth it.
Nah Summit and Butler will sell you good solid Made In China "stock replacement" forged rods for less than $400.
They are exactly the same dimensions as stock and LOTS tougher. Pretty close on weight I think they are like 20 grams heavier. Much as I dislike offshore parts they have American quality controls in place. Not going to ruin a good block over $400.
all the early rods were forged but they are 60 years old minium. go with new H beam. Jim Hand said cast rods are good to 5800 rpm. so if you can make your car work below that rpm no need for aftermarket .
Your Tee shirt advertising at the end of the vid worked, I just ordered 2 of the "Sketchy" shirts! I wanted to get them before the price skyrockets!!! My son learned the hard way about the Chrysler old sump problem, he burned up 2 con rod bearings while beating a 440 Six Pack Cuda by a length in his 510 horse 72 440 powered Charger. Dang that was an expensive lesson!
I have read that after Pontiac's racing success of the early sixties that the GM brass put a 10 lb. / Horsepower cap on them because Chevy with the Corvette was supposed to be the performance division. If you notice, no matter how hot...Ram Air III, Ram Air IV...a Pontiac 400 V-8 is, it is never rated at more than the 360ish HP range...about one tenth of the weight of a GTO. Meanwhile the 428 in rather mild tune is rated at 390...one tenth of the weight of a full frame Gran Prix or Executive...
Pontiac engines were always underrated to keep chevy off their back. They were often being held back by chevy in many ways.
@@caseycassidy-k4z Amen brother.
I know I read your articles when I was a kid. It's so cool to see all the guys who wrote for magazines, when I was first learning about cars, all have TH-cam channels now. And I get to learn all over again
The fire still flickering in the background as you confidently continue.....and the ultra calm, o that's really burning.....and then just continue the story. The look on her face was priceless.
No lie, super stock racing Pontiacs in the 70s and 80s was tough. I was fortunate to find a set of used 421SD rods for my 428. Still could not work around the cylinder head issue, even with porting. The plus is that no motor has more mid-range explosiveness IMO, and you cam the snot out of the motor for mid-range pull. Good Times. :)
@ 6:00 mark... Yeah, I used to sell plenty of those skid plates.
The first month driving my '69 383 Valiant mule, I actually scraped the oil pan driving through a regular gas station parking lot.
Didn't go over a speed bump, didn't hit a giant pothole - but the car had six cylinder torsion bars, sat at stock ride height, and still had the original 13" front wheels at that point.
And a stock oil pan was pretty easy to find the ground with
😆
That SD455 engine (73-74) was a brute when I upped the compression, more aggressive cam & headers.
Love this series, catching up now. Always learning stuff on your channel Uncle Tony. I Just installed a Pontiac Super Duty scoop ( 50s ford truck scoop) on my 55 and talked a little about Arniethe Farmer!
Excellent presentation. Spoken like a trusted historian!. Your honesty overshadows any bias!
You are absolutely correct on the Pontiac cast rods. That was a mess with the street racing crowd, and back in the day you could not a cheap set of forged rods. Unless you could somehow find some 421 Super Duty rods or pay for a set of super expensive Carrillo rods you were SOL. Back in the late 80's early 90's I had a good friend with a 455 Trans Am street racing car used for high speed roll racing. Mostly a stock engine with all the good Pontiac stuff, like the Pontiac HO 455 4bbl aluminum manifold, ported polished ram air heads, forged pistons, a nice street cam, balanced and blueprinted engine, Holley 850, stock ram air exhaust manifolds (no headers as they were too low and an issue when you were doing 150 MPH plus and they would hit the ground on every bump in the highway), and the piece de resistance which was a 2 stage nitrous kit, with a 125 shot and then a 250 shot, and 2 big nitrous bottles. If I recall correctly car had somewhere around 2.73 gears for the high speed runs, it could have been even higher gears. Guy would race from 60 to 150 mph. He used to love racing motorcycles on the highway, and he would usually win. Lots of races with 911/930 Turbo cars, Lambos, Ferraris etc... As long as he kept the engine under 5,500 RPM's it would last a bit, but if it went over 5,500 that was it, the rods would immediately go out of round and spin a bearing. I never saw a rod implode and take out the engine, but many times one of the cast rods would just stretch and go out of round and spin a bearing...
IIRC, you needed to prove you had an SD455 Firebird to order that engine's forged rods back in the day (which were stronger). Given your video, that makes sense -- there must have been a *lot* of enthusiasts who wanted stronger rods!
Or those rods "grew legs" and walked away.
Too bad it had a cast crankshaft.
I became Pontiac fan in 1964 when I bought a new 64 GTO. I used 1961-62 rods ( CR 4140 ) and had them heat treated to Rockwell 35. Super duty rods were CR 4113 and not as good. I had them shot peened. I still broke cranks and pistons. I bought an OTC piston press instead heating the rod ends. aaaaaait was $1900 back in the day.
I've also heard that on Pontiacs, the way the motor mounts bolt into the block, it can distort the main webbings on High HP applications or people with broken motor mounts. Which can cause main bearing failure. Olds aswell
it takes a lot to do that. Well over 600hp, the stock style mounts are why I used a motor plate on my 68 LeMans, that thing is going to make some crazy power with a bit of boost.
@@SweatyFatGuy i read a good bit of your other comment. and yeah it seems pontiacs dont like to spin up as quick as other engines. i have a pontaic 455 in an 81 TA some hillbillies put together. they stuffed 4.10s in the rear and it sucks. gets like 6mpg, tops out at like 90mph. and really isnt that quick. you pumch it at 25 and itll light the tires up, but the acceleration just isnt there.
@@TheSamplebridge swap out those gears for some 3.08s, make sure it doesn't have a single plane intake on it, and it should run a lot better.
That was REALLY interesting. I agree, Pontiac was the performance division and should have walked away with the aftermarket performance market. I never knew you were editor of High Performance Pontiac in the 80s. My sister loved Pontiacs and was driving a Trans Am at the time, and she used to get the magazine. I'll have to see if she still has some old ones around and see if I can find some articles you wrote.
Really great info! I'm diggin this historic perspective. I think a lot of this gets lost as these cars are being purchased by people with more dollars than sense.
Tony thank you so much I built a b engine a body in 1987 and thought for all these years I believed I did something wrong when I spun a rear main approaching low 12s and it was jest the nature of Mopar at the time and I hated Chevy at the time so you know what I didn't Evan realize what happened till I watched your .Post again thanks
Tony.. the information you give us is great! I mean this !!! But that ending...spectacular !!!!
Most informative, Tony thankyou from New Brunswick, and a staunch chevy guy. Worked in a Ford dealership 67/68, and was driving a Cdn Pontiac.
It was because of a family member building Pontiacs, I grew up thinking if you want to build an engine you need to get new rods.
TH-cam is letting me comment again. They're being the thought police like Facebook.
Many years ago, there was a TV commercial for fingernail polish, don't remember which brand, but a man was holding these long glass rods and breaking them over a table and saying, "Are you tire of your nails breaking like these glass rods?" We used to joke about the Pontiac engine connecting rods every time that commercial came on. Still have several Pontiac V8's and still love em, especially the 4 speed F-body cars.
The other issue Pontiacs had was the gigantic crankshaft, especially the main journals. They were enormous on the small V8s, and even bigger on the large engines. The 326-400 engines had a 3in main journal and the 421, 428 and 455 had an even bigger 3.25in main journal. Even a BBC only used a 2.75in journal IIRC. With those huge journals, the bearing speed is ridiculous, and they run into all kinds of problems because of it at high rpm. Most people don't know this, but Smokey Yunik actually worked for Pontiac initially, but when they went to the giant 3.25in main journal against his advice, that's when he left to go work with Chevy instead. Those cast rods and giant journals are why Pontiac engines don't want to be revved like you can with a BBC for example.
I tore down a 455 Pontiac that had a snapped crankshaft because 6 wrist pins were seized. The crankshaft looked kind of odd to me and this makes sense of why they had issues.
@@gabesgarden57 their cranks are ridiculous. It's great for low speed durability, like in a big diesel engine, but for high rpm it just isn't going to work. Even with good strong rods, that crank design is a liability once you get the rpm up over 5000rpm.
Pontiac cast cranks either Arma Steel or the later Nodular Iron (not including the lightened ones in the mid-late 70's) are actually pretty stout, good for 600+ hp if properly prepped. Yeah the 3.25 journals for the 421-455 are pretty big though I believe Olds used the same size. Some would cut them down to 3" and put in a 400 block. Now you can easily buy aftermarket cast or forged cranks with the 3" journals and build a 455 using the 400 block. And believe it or not a Ford 351 Windsor also uses a 3" main journal.
@@robertrio1164 they are a very strong crank, yeah. That's not the issue though, it's that journals that big create really high bearing speeds, which can be very difficult to make survive high rpm. That's one big benefit the sbc has over alot of the old V8s. They had relatively small main journals, which helped alot with high rpm longevity, especially the small journal 283 and 327 engines.
@@robertrio1164 yes, factory Windsors are also cursed with a huge 3" main since they were designed for station wagons and trucks and not for high rpm use. That's why you'll find all the aftermarket performance Windsor blocks have a 2.75" Cleveland main instead.
As much as I want to disagree with Tony he has so much more knowledge than me but the one thing I will agree with him on is how to crack a joke. Light something on fire, make vague comments about economics, and keep a straight face. Tony you sir are a hero, God bless America, happy birthday to Jesus, and whatnot.
Even though I'm a GM guy, I enjoy Uncle Tony's channel immensely. Would love it if he started tackling breakdowns of specific non-Mopar engines, like the 1970 LT-1 or the 1969 DZ 302.
I'm a Ford man, but I think the 1970 LT-1 was one of the best performance engines Chevy has built, to run on the street with. I know the DZ was built literally the same way except for a slight cam spec change, and that may have been why it was a little finicky for the low speed city running, IMHO. The LT-1 had everything you needed, enough manners to cruise the streets, and enough muscle to run with most everything out at the time.
DZ 302 overrated.
@@elmerfudpucker3204 so true man.
@@cuzz63 good for what it was designed for 5 liter trans am racing.. but lacks the cubic inch for a good all around preformaance engine
Great history lesson thank you! I had a 1967 Firebird in HS and College. 326HO. Great car! Today I have a 67 400 with factory power windows and A/C and factory cruise control! It's not perfect but it's very nice. I always wondered why I could not get the aftermarket items I really wanted. Now I know! Thank you!
I was a Pontiac man in high school, On one of my GTO's, I had a rod come right through the pan. You sure dig up a lot of memories, Tony.
Thankfully, that was in the 80's, so $800.00 would buy you another one!
I like the GTO story.
When I was about 14 we were down at the family farm in Oshawa, Ontario (Canada) - 1974 or 5. We were sleeping in our tent trailer with only a field separating us from a major road.
I came awake 3 or 4 in the morning and I could hear some BIG iron facing off down this road.
I have no idea what or who was racing, but like I said, there was some BIG iron involved, lots of howling tires and roaring engines ....
Music. I drifted off to sleep supremely happy.
I got one of those mythical forged rod beauties.
Tony talking about the dude with the Pontiac and the blower at the lights reminds me of being at the Port Road Drags in New Zealand back in the nineties. Best I remember it, guy lines up in a bright yellow tri five Chev four door, think he was going for the gasser look it was sitting up there. Blower out the bonnet and gets into on the start line big time, and then she just let go straight out out the bottom. BB car if I recall, don't recall seeing again either, back home to explain that 2 the Mrs aye! Man, felt for him, that's like more than twenty years ago.
The main issue with hot rodding a Pontiac was the unavailability of good racing parts and the scarcity of factory go-fast parts. Chevrolet made these parts available from the factory or over the counter and stole the show.
Forged cranks? Unavailable unless you can find a used 62-63 990 crank of which only 2000 were made. I got lucky and snagged one from PJ Heck in Ohio. Forged rods? Your choices were the early SD forged rods that were called rubber rods for a reason, or the 73-74 SD 455 rods that were impossible to buy unless you owned one of those engines - and even if you could get them they were way heavy. RA4 heads? Bring your wallet. RA5 stuff? Unobtainium unless you were well connected. The main bearing sizes (3 or 3 1/4 inch) were an impediment to high RPMs because of oiling. 4 bolt blocks were rare.
So what’s left? Some very good factory parts that could take you deep into the 11s as long as you used good rod bolts (I had Nunzi’s rod bolts installed) and you watched the RPMs. A 400 was generally good for 6,000 or a little more while the 455 was good for 5,500 RPM. A rev limiter is a must to keep the engine alive. If you want the recipe Jim Hand has a very nice book showing you how to maximize stock parts. He has a safari wagon that flew on the drag strip using stock parts.
The bad reputation you mentioned happened when people installed 4.56 gears and then over revved the engine resulting in broken rods. Pontiacs are torque monsters and they don’t have to spin high to make good power.
Forged rods and cranks and light forged pistons eventually became available but it was far too late. Pontiac was a niche player by then.
Back in the day I ran a d port headed stock bottom end 455 in a trans am for years and years and eventually got it into the 11s. It had 3.55 gears in the diff and weighed about 3,700 lbs. There was nothing exotic about that engine - it had heavy TRW forged pistons, heads that I had ported myself, headers, a comp cams “racing” hydraulic flat tappet cam, an edelbrock performer RPM intake, and a Holley 750 which was probably too small. Of course, it had stock cast rods. I wasn’t connected to anyone in the industry and I didn’t have a pile of money so I didn’t have any exotic parts, but I sure had some fun!
I hated to see Pontiac cancelled, but by then it’s previous identity as the performance division of GM was long gone.
Been a huge Pontiac fans since I was a kid (now 66). The 60s was definitely their decade in many ways. Much of what you discussed I did not know as I never got into a higher level of high performance cars. I just thought that Chevy won outright because of their great small block (and offering a big block) and also being the #1 division of GM. I always wanted a 421. Currently looking for my 17th Pontiac, a 67 Grand Prix (428) or a 71-72 Grand Prix (455). Thanks for the story.
Growing up through the '50s & '60s, I remember a very distinct problem Pontiac V8s had you didn't mention. Clacking valvetrain. It was extremely common throughout the '60s. You would be standing somewhere, parking lot, crosswalk, whatever, anywhere a car would slow up to stop and you'd hear clack, clack, clack, clack and you wouldn't even have to look, you would just say, oh, a Pontiac, then look over to the racket and sure enough, it was a Pontiac. I always figured it was oiling issues that put a strain on the valve train, which in turn put a strain on the timing chain and gears which caused the plastic timing gears to break down ending up in the oil pickup screen, which caused a restriction to the oil pump causing even less oil to the valvetrain. These weren't cold engines either, they were fully warmed up and clacking. Not old junk but relatively new cars, 4-5 years old with way less than 100,000 miles.
OMG. Anthony, why am I just getting this video? You and your outlook, and opinions with Pontiacs are a refreshing change. Been a loyal (Royal) Poncho fan since Nunzi, and H-O, early 70s. Knew all about their short comings, and adhered to them. Still have a couple decades of HPP mags, that I finally gave up my subscriptions due to the material fade. I miss the days, and the future looks so dismal. But all I can say to you, is..."Thanks for the memories.". (Got shirts to sell?)
I started with Pontiac engines back in the 80s, drag raced them for years, ran mid 10s with a 455 in a 67 Firebird. But Pontiac parts are expensive and alot less choices. Also built Oldsmobile and Buick engines for a while. Very expensive and limited choices. But I eventually faced reality and started building bigblock Chevys and smallblock Chevys. There's alot of reasons why Chevys are so popular.
Love your insights Uncle Tony !
I have to disagree with the statement concerning the big-block Chevrolet.
It was widely known, even back in the 1970s, that the Ford 351 Cleveland, when equipped with the closed-chamber 4V heads as it was in 1970 and 71 would produce more power per cubic inch (when modified/tuned) than any other V-8 engine. The engine was designed with one purpose in mind, and that was to outperform the Mopar 340 and Chevrolet 350
Its tall block variants were the last overhead valve engines designed and built by Ford until the introduction of the 7.3 "Godzilla" engine for F-250 and larger trucks 3 years ago.
The big-block Chevrolet had the inherent fault of having unequal length intake runners, which had a negative effect on performance. Neither Mopar or Ford engines suffered from that issue.
Tell that to the literal universe of high end and professional racers all around the world who rely almost exclusively on BB variants to this day
@@UncleTonysGarage Were YOU involved in automotive repair and modification in the 70s?
I WAS.
The fact is, what I posted was a known fact when you were still a kid. If you were racing with a displacement limit.....Clevelands of some variation were winning. In NHRA and IHRA, it was a big-inch Chrysler Hemi variant. In NASCAR it was a stock displacement Chrysler "late Hemi" They absolutely dominated.
Chevrolet didnt even get close
Just the facts.
Tell YOUR story to Richard Petty., or anyone setting top fuel/funny car records with Hemi variants...see if THEY agree.
You know quite a lot, and some of what you say makes sense...BUT..you dont know it all.
Don, I got thrown out of HS in 1977 and went directly to work as a mechanic...had my first shop at 19, so yes I was very involved in auto repair and modifications in the 70's. I lost my first license before I ever got one for street racing tickets.
As for Hemi variants, I was very involved in Fuel racing from 1988 until 1999, so I know a few things about that also.
Intermingled through all of that was some Super Stock Hemi experience.
I can tell you first hand, beyond any doubt, that the only place the 426 Hemi is truly dominant is when a huge amount of liquid fuel has to be BLOWN through it. The Chevy has a MUCH more N/A, gasoline friendly combustion chamber.
@@UncleTonysGarage I see you deleted my comment explaining why a Hemi is superior to a BBC. Thats pretty chicken shit, but despite what you think, there ARE people who know more than you do, and have been involved with engines longer than you have, especially when it involves learning the physics concerning internal combustion engines, and it looks like I might be one of them.
One of the first things I learned in internal combustion physics....Volumetric efficiency rules.
In fairness, its not just you...there are many people making TH-cam videos, and when they are wrong, they get called out too. I get it..your pride took a hit.
Mine has too....when I was younger and didnt know.....but thought I did.
I didn't delete any comments from you.
Listen, I never claimed to know everything, but I'll state straight up, I know more than most.
Saying "volumetric efficiency rules" is the same as saying "gravity is good", or "ice is cold". It's the MANAGEMENT of that efficiency that translates to work, and in that case the BB Chevy does a better job.
As I said, I do have some hands on Super Stock Hemi experience, but I also spent a good bit of time around John Baughman and Ray Barton back in the 90's and wrote about these topics extensively in SSDI and Drag Racing Monthly as well as a couple of Mopar only magazines of the day.
Believe whatever you choose to my friend, and build whatever makes you happy. These days, things like hopping up lowly Slant Sixes and 318's are what keeps me interested.
As for the rest of it...been there, done it, got the T shirt and moved on.
I'm an old HPP subscriber so I have some of Tony's writings in my collection, along with a photo spread of my old 74 SD Formula in one issue. UTG is breaking down some very good, semi-mystical topics from The Era that old car guys like me are still pondering. I'm a long-time SD-455 guy and have spoken with Nunzi on occasion back in the day. I hope UTG does a future video discussing the other Pontiac issues alluded to in this video (oiling, mains) and other topics related to the 455-HO, SD, and RA IV.
So much here. Those rods kept Pontiac out of the marine business. And, in the 60's, a lot of hot parts came out of the marine catalogs. Top tier Pontiac motors would eat you up on the street, but there were few of them. Goats running Road Runners all day long, but no killer cars.
My cousin had a 57 Ford 2-door with a 383 and TQFlyte out of a wrecked police car that would run away and hide on most folks. Mopar into a Ford was not common, but not unheard of. Could not stick big Chevy V8's in Fords unless you went to an Econoline front axle swap and nuked the cross member. Way to much work for most folks. But 383, 413, 440 into a mid to late 50's Ford, not a ton of work. Why, because 1 the FE had worse oiling issues, and 2 they were expensive to make go fast. Could be done, but only if you get Holman & Moody parts, and that was tough ...
Always Ford’s problem, not building enough of the good stuff. When they did get it right (351 Cleveland) , the sanctioning bodies cut their nuts off with restrictions. Always about Chevrolet first in pro stock then in NASCAR. It’s not Fords fault they were building aerodynamic bubbles and GM was building boxes
Great Topic on the Pontiacs Tone! I see a series brewing. Cant wait for the next one.!
Yes, I had run several Pontiac engines and I always got 7 & 8 connecting rods go through the oil pan. Unfortunately, they were expensive to rebuild so I went to a sbc in my GTO. Ran it on a road coarse for years and never looked back. Gotta admit, those Pontiac engines had good low end grunt though.
You were over revving them. If you feel like everything has to go 7000rpm then the chevy is right for you.. ;)
I made around 540hp, nearly 600ftlbs with a D port headed 455, had all of $2700 in it back in 1996. $1500 of that was having Butler port the heads, install guides and stainless valves. It ran for 10 years, 12.0s with a 4.10 gear, 11.40s with a 3.42 gear, and a stock converter. Shifting it at 5800 so the trans shifted at 6000.
I have broken two of them, one was because someone dumped lead shot in the valve cover, one found its way to number #7 rod journal, the other someone dumped gravel down the carb, bent five valves and dropped #1 intake valve, which it then promptly shoved through the head in two places and punched a nice hole in the piston.
I have a 400 that has been in eight vehicles I own, including my 76 C10. Its sitting on a stand waiting for me to finish building a car for it, might end up in the 71 Formula 400, it was in that thing back in 1999.
A 455 I built in 1995 for $1800 with cast pistons that is still running. It pushed my 4100lb 70 GTO into the 12.60s with a 2.93 gear shifting at 5500. Yes two nine three, not a typo. It was 8.8:1 compression and ran the same with a stock intake, RPM, or performer on it. Ran the same with a 2004R and a Th400 too.
@@SweatyFatGuy You are correct, I should have had a rev limiter on there because 5500rpm was max before bad things happen.
Excellent video Uncle Tony. You are spot on!!👍
The end of the video was a good closer too. 🤣
I would Like to hear your input on why Oldsmobile didn't do better. Buick and Olds were more upscale than Chevy, the Cutlass hit out out of the park in the late 60's and early 70's. Olds had a better 350 engine than Chevy with the W31. The 455 W30 was a great engine and Olds had developed the Hemi 455 that would have gone into production if the bottom hadn't fallen out of the muscle car in 71.
One word that spelled certain doom for that brands performance image and success during the 60's...its name. OLDsmobile.
It did not matter what they put under the hood or how stylish the cars were, the name scared off a huge population of the "youth" market. In the 60's youth image was EVERYTHING. Hard to understand that today, but it was the reality of the era.
@@UncleTonysGarage It makes sense to a certain degree, hence the slogan "it's not your father's Oldsmobile" but Olds was number 1 in the late 70's & 80's outselling Chevy and Ford, in 86 Cutlass sold 600k and from there GM ran them into the ground. The Cutlass followed the LeMans/GTO plan and by the late 60's outstripped Pontiac and closed in on Chevy. Oldsmobile was a leader with the Toronado, their partnership with Hurst was legendary, and influenced other manufactures to partner with Hurst to sell cars. I think that like some have posted GM couldn't let Chevy be upstaged and over time set plans in motion to keep Chevy in the forefront even when they were the lesser star.
If I recall correctly, the Olds problem was its foursquare head bolt pattern, which led to blown head gaskets.
@@americanpatrol4603 Olds had a problem with the 350 Diesel engine in the 80's with head gaskets as well as the Quad 4 head issues, but the 350 to 455 didn't have that issue, they used a higher nickel content until mid 70's and never had the issues with their blocks that other makes had, I pulled many olds engines apart and the blocks would still have cylinders with cross hatch with no visual wear after 30 and 35 years on the road.
@@455cutlass I think this hearkens back to the dawn of the muscle car era and not to its glory years and eventual fade-out.
But namaste. By venturing this opinion I've clearly gotten into a subject which you undoubtedly care a lot more about than I do. My understanding was always that the Olds was a hot ticket in the early 50s but the pentagonal head bolt designs of later engines caused the foursquare Olds to fade away. Never owned one personally. I tend to find value and unique features among all brands I have owned over the years, but my favorite car of the moment was always the one that had gas in the tank and a battery that could crank the engine without a jump.
Wow you nailed it right on the head 👍🏻your knowledge of this awesome era of raw muscle cars , please don’t stop this outstanding channel 😊😊😊😊any time I need something figured out I watch your channel, heck even solve some arguments over this and that … I just whip out an uncle Toms garage video and there ya go bro solved 🎉😊
What you're saying makes sense for back in the 60's and 70's. But the story for Pontiac I feel gets a lot more complex in the 80's and to their end. That last prototype Fiero if that had hit the streets what might have happened? And the fwd daily drivers to this day still look modern and are sought after. If anything was the downfall of Pontiac it was the rule that nothing can be better than the Vette.
I knew about the Pontiac cast rods and - just not in so many words - about the pyramid with racers at the apex and people-who-just-bought-stock-muscle-cars-and-drove-them at the foundation. V.Good explanation of Pontiac in the History of The Muscle Car Era !
What doesn't make sense to me: If the rod was THE weak link, then I would expect that would be the very FIRST thing the aftermarket would address. To me there are 2 reasons Pontiac faded: 1) The V8 peaked too early. Other divisions (Buick, Olds) came out with 2nd gen engine designs during the mid-to-later 60's, and this carried them through the 70's and stumbled into the 80's. With the introduction of the 389 with thin wall castings in 1959, Pontiac planted themselves with this and continued upgrading this 1959 engine. Later when they needed a new generation of engine design it was too late. 2) Simply put, CPC. In 1984 Pontiac was folded into the Chevrolet-Pontiac-Canada Group of GM, which was nothing less than the complete takeover of Pontiac by Chevrolet. Pontiac was now just an empty brand name with no substance behind it. Pontiac was a thorn in Chevy's side all through the 60's. GM has a self imposed 50% market share limit to avoid being broken up under Anti-Trust laws, and Chevy alone had 25% market share. So for Pontiac to be successful and sell more cars meant that Chevrolet had to sell fewer cars. And Pontiac was in a STRONG 3rd place passing Plymouth and nipping at Ford's heels. This was bringing Chevy down lessening the gap between Chevy and Ford. Chevy couldn't have that. And what Chevy wanted they simply went whining to GM corporate management to get their way.
The best part is you never know what you Tony is going to do next love the end
I think the start of the death of Pontiac was with the Fiero. They put it out that they're targeting 50 mpg in it and then it got a bad reputation of being a fire hazard. That fire hazard was a big reason they stopped production after dumping a whole lot of cash into it - but they didn't ever admit that. Then the Solstice - which was a parts-bin sports car with Cavalier parts in it.
Personally, My Pontiac WTF is this turning moment was around 1990, the first time I encountered a Daewoo made Pontiac Lemans. I literally felt sick to my stomach in disbelief that GM would ever do such a thing to the LeMans badge. Add to that how GM had replaced the Firebird's identity with a sbc. About that time most all Pontiacs became nothing but rebadged and plastic clad Chevys, so why even bother? Aztec was the final nail IMO. Strangely, I thought as ugly as the Aztec was, it's sibling, the Buick Rendezvous was even uglier, and they made those for a long time.
My first car, Pontiac GTO, learned by reading...don't go for rpms ... the main bearing were also large and generated friction. Be efficient, gear for 1/4 mile, get your car to launch cleanly. Has three, including a 64 4spd. Loved that car. I was a lousy mechanic, my best neighborhood mechanic moved away. I ended up with an RD400, I could work on it and had a great mechanic. Loved that bike too.
Loved those little Yammies, I owned an RD350 and drooled over the 400 'Daytona Special'. But for straight line terrorizing, you couldn't beat a Kaw triple H3/H4.
Personally I..blame squirrels
Still having problem with the moose
Are you sure it's you doing the blaming and not the Reptilian Overlords compelling you?
Great channel dude. Thanks a ton for posting these great personal car videos. Your the Best !😎
I had a 421 SD with a M/T cross ram. When it spun a bearing back in the mid 70s, I was able to get the 455SD forged rods. They were much heavier as you know. They added 3 and 1/2'of Mallory metal to the crank to balance the assembly. THe engine was bored .120 to 434 c.i. prior . I spun that engine to 7200rpm several times . I did use H.O. racing guide and installed a mellings oil pump and had a deeper 7 quart ? oil pan. 68 Firebird. Those rods were impressive...just like your vast knowledge Tony! Cheers
I've been waiting for a pontiac video for a long time thank you
Some very interesting comments. Pontiac for sure with that big low end torque made for a great street runner. I always remember a friend had a tired 1972 Pontiac Grandville. Huge boat of a car but tired as the 400 V8 engine was, you could still spin 'em easily at half throttle taking off from the stoplight. I truly wish I'd bought that car back in the day, tired as it was. I was just a little concerned because I knew how much my friend had abused the poor thing over the years.
What are your thoughts on Butler Performance parts? Are they a good after market support for fixing and building up Pontiac engines?
Absolutely first rate background story Tony! This video hit so many "Oh that rings a bell!" moments. Kudos!
It is a plearsure being able to listen to someone that has practical knowledge about the history of cars and engines we grew up with.
Appreciate your technical analysis very much. It's always cool to get under the sheets to see what's the strong and weak points of a design are.
Love this.
Love you Tony.
Love you all my brothers and sisters.
❤❤❤
Back in the early 70's a classmate with 66 Tempest blew up at least three 389's before finally installing a 400 that lasted a few years before he sold it.
Given your history with the fox Mustangs, could you talk about the resurgence & aftermarket support for the roller 5.0 ford in the 80’s & 90’s as an episode in your history lessons? As a Ford fan I was so excited back then that we finally had a chance against all of those sbc powered cars. We finally had affordable performance parts & a better chassis to compete with factory & aftermarket support.
Uncle T.... Its time to give a C body some love. How about picking up a 300, Fury or Polara and make it a monster? Great channel! Love it!
My dad said that was the issue with his 74 SD455. He threw the number 5 rod in the original 455. He swapped in a 400 and swapped parts over. Threw another rod! I don't remember which. One complaint I have about BOP is not many 4 bolt mains. I'd love a 4 bolt main for my Olds 455. More ease of mind like the oiling issues. You still can't kill my love for old brand X big blocks. One day I'd like to play with a Rocket Racing block.
Edit: You'd not like the newer 4cyl in Chevys lol. They like blowing head gaskets and lots of fragile parts.
First car was 70 Lemans, bought it in 79, I was 14, had a 400/4sp. After a brief 396 swap ended with a spun bearing, the 400 went back in. That engine was built by somebody, had a sleeved cylinder I'd guess from a rod. Whom ever rebuilt it installed forged steel rods. I assumed from a pre 63 engine but have no idea if that was the case. It had 7K3 heads with screw in studs, the studs outa the blown 396 was my cheap adjustable valve conversion. Then it would reallywind up, lifters pumped up like crazy before. Never blew it, pretty sure it would've with stock rods.
Tony you should do a video on oldsmobiles and buicks would love to hear about them,,,,thanks Ken