Former Maserati tech here... If you want a good example of the vehicle not being diy.... Just look at the oil service. Did you see where the filter is at? What were they thinking lololololol. Fun fact.... So many of the parts are stamped "made in Mexico" - - seriously. Thanks for the fun videos, Ivan!
Have you seen this issue before? Why no ratcheting tensioner on the right side? What's the service interval for timing components? Inquiring minds want to know! Thanks!
This Maserati V6 timing system is based off the Pentastar V6 engine design. The first half of the original Pentastar V6 prototype engine program utilized a ratchet style right bank secondary tensioner. It was decided mid-protype program to revise the right bank secondary tensioner to a non-ratchet style to allow for camshaft, phaser, roller finger follower and valve spring service without the need to remove the front cover (but hold tools required). Removing the front cover in a transverse application is a time consuming effort and costly. Maybe the right decision at the time (pre-production) would have been to revise the front cover design to allow access (without removal) for retracting of the right bank tensioner (with ratchet) and re-installion of the release pin (cost, potential for oil leaks and access with respect to other FEAD components were negatives). Also, several engineers recommended to never turn the crankshaft backwards (CCW from the front) during service work as the right bank secondary tensioner might compress enough to allow the chain to jump. Test engines run 1500 hours at WOT between peak torque and peak HP rpm would exhibit less than half the amount of wear observed on this engine. Nice work thus far.
Timing chains do not stretch. They wear at each pivot point. When I did not have timing tools to hold my cams. I bought extra vice grips. Wrapped the area where I placed my grips and locked each one in place. Then got my chains replaced.
The thing about luxury cars is that the maintenance costs are proportional to the original purchase price. If a timing job on a $45k car costs $3k, then the cost on a $100k car will be at least $6k. And if it is a low volume car, then there is a 1.5 to 2x multiplier on top of that. The thing is, those costs never change through the lifetime of the car as it depreciates, so that $100k car which is now $10k doesn't magically have maintenance cost that are 90% lower....
Ivan you took it one cause when everyone else says no or can't figure it out especially dealership's that eat and breathe certain cars people come you... The unsung independent mechanic that fearlessly finds a way gets it done and finds ways to save people money... God bless your talent brother!
I Just want to thank you, Ivan for the great content throughout the year. You are an inspiration to us all to perform proper fault finding and diagnosis, before loading the parts canon! I wish you and all your family a very Merry Christmas and a happy and healthy 2023. 🎄
Wow unbelievable, you must really like this customer. I can only imagine the hours that went into this project. I hope the customer doesn't have a stroke when you hand him the bill. Merry Christmas to you and the family. Hope your New Year is both prosperous and enjoyable.
I would have a seperate charge schedule for exotics or newer european cars.. 500.00 minimum, then 200.00 an hour after the first hour,, every one of them requires hours of research, the parts are harder to find, special tools and diagnostic equiptment is often needed, patch thru programs purchases, having to deal with stealerships for parts. when all is said and done ALOT of time will have been spent on this car.. then if there is a problem in the next 6 months they will be right back in your driveway, claiming it has the exact same problem.
I was there 30 years ago pulling dash out of Jaguar with twenty real wood grain inserts. Taught me to say NO ‼️. You should have taken your advice in pt 1 and let someone else do it. Your determination is inspiring to younger techs but us old retired ones just shake our heads and wonder when you will learn ? Your mild cussing the car out brings back all those old memories 🤪
My eyes have seen the glory of the coming Maserati with a dodgy tensioner system and the design engineers keep marching on. Glory glory and back to Milano.
As I said in the previous video it's not a Chrysler engine, Chrysler were only contracted to cast and machine the engine block. The engine is actually built in Italy by Ferrari, so most OE parts will come from Italy. I don't think that engine has been looked after very well, that's a lot of oil varnish for 60k miles. Is it even the original engine?
Zdorovo Ivan ! I hpoe you charging dealer rate for doing this job. Over the years in garage buiseness I understood that euro market cars are made to be worked on with engine out. you drop it and change everything you can while its on the floor.Definately ther are ways around it, with experience you find ways to cheat. Great job man👍
It’s jobs like this that can really frustrate even the best mechanics. Truly a rabbit hole project and once you’re committed you have no choice but to finish or fail. Good on ya Ivan.
I recently did the heater core on my 1967 Galaxie fastback 390 with factory air conditioning and it was quite the job and I was a little bit upset with Ford,,, after watching this video I'm proud of circa 1967 Ford.... lol
One trick I have used a number of times. I have a small 1 ton scissor jack that I use to jam between the engine and the surrounding structure. Jack it up a bit and move the whole engine/transmission assembly on the rubber mounts. I can get an additional 1/2-1" of clearance, which is often enough. I do use a small piece of plywood to protect the paint from the jack pad.
10,000 mile extended oil changes wore out the chains. Same problem as the GM 3.6L engines have and even more of a pain to fix on those. At least you don't have to pull the engine on the Maserati.
I knew you could do it! So satisfying to see the root cause. This case reminds me of a life lesson: It's not whether you CAN do it, you definitely can - it's whether you feel it's the correct and profitable thing to do. My hope is that the owner is compensating you very well for your efforts. Often, folks who don't do the work don't see the value in what is done or appreciate the efforts on their behalf. Some of them just use willing workers to save them a few dollars and move on to the next luxury item. Been there, been used that way, but avoided a few, too!
FYI, I use a flush nail cuter pliers to reinstall those clamps. Did it several times on VW CV joint boots. Did dull the cutters to keep from cutting the clamps.........Jay
With the chains worn so bad, look at the cam journal state, they could have damage. Even if it runs fine after this timing job, it could be on borrowed time, if any bearing started to get wiped out or if dirt got past the oil filter bypass. Or it could be fine, it's a gamble.
Ratcheting tensioners are superior but I see other big names using non ratcheting types too. I think they size the dimensions so that a new chain won't be able to jump teeth because the tensioner won't be able to retract enough to allow that.
You don't know why you sign up for this crap, you ask?, I know why, and it is becuase you like to learn new things, you like to help people, it is fun to fix things. LOL. What a job. I appreciate you for all your hard work and dedication to what you do best. Have a very Merry Xmas.
Watching this video makes me so happy to own $500 Citroen Xsara 2000 model year with a TU5JP engine. Timing belt and tensioner change takes 30 minutes, 60 with water pump. There is 4-6 inch free space to all directions. You need a 13 mm socket, 10 mm wrench, 6 mm socket, 15 mm bolt and 5 mm hex key to lock the engine. No special tools needed. It is not a Maserati but the pain of keeping a Maserati on the road, including time and money is higher than driving a Citroen.
I like my 4cyl Audis with TDIs (AHU and it's relatives and AXR/AWX). Not much different with the timing job, though on the C5/B5 you of course need to take off the front fascia. Adds about an hour to this...
As Eric o would say, you have to know when to hold them and you have to know when to fold them. Once you've decided to take the job Ivan, try and make the best of it. We all get frustrated, however I don't recall my bitching ever making the job better.
Hi I'm walking my dog and not really watching the video just listening, and I actually busted out laughing when you remove the alternator belt, "piece of shit" hahaha
Lots of work still ahead. I would toss all of the permanent clamps and replace them with standard ones. Enjoying our Christmas gift video series, Ivan. Keep up the great work!
Taking the front end off is less hassle - bumper off, cross-brace off, rads/coolers out - you'll just end up with heartbreak trying to reach down to everything. Off with the front - then everything is there in front of you. Have a big pack of hose clips to hand, cut all the old ones, drill all the rivets, fit new. :-)
Treat it like an Audi or an Iveco - front off is always easier. You'd want protection on all the paintwork.. maserati owners tend to like their paint unscratched.. no idea why. :-) At a dealership, this job would be insanely expensive - bear that in mind. They would use all OEM parts, clips, their hourly rate would be off the scale & the final bill would have 4 noughts on the end - you'd buy a car for the bill... Hope you're charging appropriately.
Chains are like I said - stretched - but one more thing you want to pay a LOT of heed to are the variators Ivan - there's little chance that at least 2 aren't borked or semi borked. Check the hell out of them for slop or you will put it all back together & still have similar issues with the cams on that bank being off-time. Treat them as small dual mass flywheels - see is there play back & forth when the cams locked.
Wow what a nightmare only you would have the confidence and patience to attempt that repair . Hope there's no oil leaks on reassembly. We have those single use hose clamps in my game have to cut them off without damaging the hose or surrounding equipment really frustrating and time consuming. Looking forward to seeing it running again . Anyway merry Xmas to you and your wife and hope you get a break to rest and recuperate over Xmas.
Ivan, you are inspiring! As I struggle with timing chain guides and timing cover on my BMW V8 (M62TU) right now! Today! I realize that I need to stop whining and appreciate the vastly superior engineering of old (2003) BMW. I will never own a turbo or an Italian nightmare (before Christmas). Thanks, again, Ivan!
Ivan, you have real GUTS! The best aspect of the American version of the English language is that we have the most colorful filthy words to use while attempting to work on cars like Maserati's. And I thought you had guts when you replaced your wife's Nissan transmission! Nice work you brave brave man!
Hey Ivan, I can feel your pain and how you regret agreeing to do this job. My brother owns an independent repair shop in Calgary Canada and he specializes in European and Exotic vehicles. He gets calls from dealerships Like Maserati, Bently, and Land Rover to refer their customers to his shop because technicians at the dealership refuse to work on those cars once they are out of warranty. Why? you may ask... well because the job takes way more time that the book says, they get paid a flat rate, and the technicians will not make money on the repairs. They have to do it only if it is under factory warranty and most like usually those repairs are out of warranty. So the dealership quotes the customer a ridiculous amount of money or offers up a trade-in value as you said to move them on the new ride. Some customers just trade in the car and move on others just go to the independent shop usually it is cheaper than the dealership. And if the trade-in vehicle is in good shape that could be resold as a used car in their lot, they send that to the independent shop to be repaired and flip over. Something that my brother's shop has seen many times. Now you know why an exotic car like this one retail value is so low, sometimes it is cheaper than a preowned Camry... Well, the answer is on this video, too expensive to repair for the short life that it has between repairs.
Interesting the dealers are sending exotics to independent mechanics before selling (presumably as factory certified). More interesting the dealer mechanics can refuse to work on cars.
@@dosgos have you seen the preparation and qualifications of the dealer mechanics? They don't even know how to use an oscilloscope. They are there to do basic services and diagnostic. Anything more complicated it falls on the expert master technician and not all the dealership has one on site. The headquarters gets involved if it is under warranty do to research purposes mainly.
Identical to the 3.6 pentastar. The timing tool also holds the phasers so you can torque the oil cntrol valves. Once chains are on it should line up. With chains loose you can turn cams with wrench on the hex part behind the first cam main.
3.6 pentastar timing kit WILL be needed to work on cam sprockets ! Careful Bank 2 intake code looks more like actuator/phaser issue,check cam diff in data (no more than 10' diff)
Now this is why mechanics won't let people in the shops The first time I've heard you cuss this is me on the daily these freaking engineers welcome to the big league's my guy.
We all occasionally get that repair from Hades. We don't want to do it and feel insecure with our skill set due to lack of info and experience working on a particular make and model. It is hard to find that proverbial "light at the end of the tunnel".
There usually a couple of dowel pins and silastic making it hard to release unfastened timing covers. Just pry away and hope you don't snap a corner off.
Reminds me of my Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 twin turbo I had for ten years. Couldn't work on it without cutting the hell out of yourself reaching through what few gaps were left in the engine bay. I spy a Swivel led light ! Great light but I found the lens cover housing cracks over time and I had to superglue that cover on both my lights, one proactively and one after it cracked. Have a great holiday and thanks for the informative vids.
I may be nuts but this looks like a standard 3.6L pentastar v6. In that case yes the oil pan had to come off to get the 4 bolts out that go into the lower timing cover.
that timing setup reminds me of the dodge 4.7. i had to replace headgaskets and the timing chains and making sure its all lined up kicked my ass. i had the cams lined up but i was one tooth off on the crank. took me 3 tries before i finally got it perfect lol.
Ivan what a wonderful Christmas present you gave yourself. One thing for certain is that you are a very determined, dedicated, and smart person. Some might say you are a fool, I say anyone dealing with you is truly blessed. I enjoy your work and sometimes, as in this case, your extreme suffering. Thank you for the ride......Pete
Those are otiker clamps you can get an otiker pliers at Lowes. They also sell the clamps they call them something else. We use those clamps to fasten soda lines. It's a German invention.
I'll be curious to see the comparison of the old vs. new chain guides. The old ones look like the chain has worn down really, really deep into the guide itself, causing everything to be slack/extended tensioner. I can see the oil pan coming off to clean the bits out of the pick-up tube if this is the case. All because the maintenance wasn't done correctly.
Those clamps look like the one time use clamp on the pcv of my 2011 outback. There is a special tool. Brand Caillau, type clic, clic-r, $90 online. Made in France. We use the same pliers in the special tools kit of a military vehicle I taught mechanics on. The jaws are similar to the tool used to install cv boot clamps. I bought a set from summit racing. I prefer to have the oem tools for my vehicles when I can though they are expensive and often difficult to get.
They just as well have used belts on this if the chains stretch that easily and have to be changed that often. I have not heard of any other engine with this problem. Happy holidays, Ivan!
I just did a timing and head gasket replacement on a 2011 jeep with the 3.6, and it looks like the same. Mine wasn't this difficult and I had much more room. Those clamps look like a nightmare
Ivan, sir, you definitely have more KAHONIES than I have. I would have helped the customer get all the right parts, then found one of those "Import Car Specialists" or told the customer to find a Maserati Dealer for this job.... I want to add that I am amazed that those chains are stretched.....can wait to see the side-by-side comparison.
I agree with James Ward's comment. The phasers are guilty until proven innocent. You should just replace them and have the owner bite the bullet on the parts cannon. I've read and seen too many problems with Ford Triton 3 valve engines, especially ones that haven't had regular oil changes. They aren't really fixed until the old phasers are replaced with new Motorcraft genuine parts. I will never buy a car with direct injection or valve phasers, or a turbo. Too much stuff to wear out fast and go wrong.
a lot of hard shifts and not keeping up with the oil changes might prematurely stretch those chains. I'd definitely prefer to have something like this with a stick-shift if possible (to help smooth out those shifts, plus it would just be a lot more fun). The Chrysler 2.7L had a similar thing with it's timing chain tensioner, which someone came up with the idea of sticking a "cam-chain block" in (a little block of plastic you could bolt in there so in *theory* the chain couldn't back off far enough for it to jump when the oil pressure dropped -- which it could do when it was 1/2 quart low and being driven around corners in a spirited fashion)
The nightmare before Christmas, indeed. I just love this! We are with you every painful step of the way. You are answering the question, 'what if' my normal middle class self bought a cheep Maserati... It's a 20 hour job with an Italian pit crew, shew.
I’ve heard it’s lack of lubrication that causes the chain to “stretch”and actually chain stretch is nothing but pin wear- perhaps that lack of oil pressure caused those chains to lengthen? Whatcha think?
Audi s4 / s6 & others timing chains on the "back" of the head, eng/trans/front subframe off before you even start, love to see your tantrum if you get one of those in 🤣🤣🤣
Thanks for sticking with it! An encouragement to take on the unknown and dominate it! It would have been cool to hear a slight Italian accent as you progressed.
Those chrysler parts in the maserati box are pretty reasonable!! In the 70's we used to buy VW parts for the Porsche cars. Points were $10 instaed of $90
Wow, I just started watching your videos when you were working on the beached Mercedes during Thanksgiving. I'm really impressed with your talents and your diagnostic abilities. I look forward to watching your videos, even my wife loves your abilities and calmness. She gets annoyed when I watch and listen to the "Scotty" videos. She hates the hand waving and the yelling that comes with Scotty! I share the same feeling you do with European cars. I have a fondness for the Japanese, mainly Toyota. Keep up the patience.
Now this chain setup makes more sense,IVAN.The motor rotates clockwise so the fixed chain guides are on the right with the chain travel downward?On the left side the chains travel upward ,this is as you stand in front looking directly at the motor.That's why the chain adjusters are to the left OR SLACK side of the chain.but you're right in asking why only have 1 ratcheting chain adjuster and it BEING on the drivers side? IF the car were to BACKFIRE,the ratcheting tension-er would keep the chain FROM JUMPING teeth.But on the passengers side with the crank going backwards the tension-er MAY NOT have enough pressure to keep the chain tight.I don't think the chains are worn badly,but the plastic guides could be worn or broken?Try to move the crank slowly backwards NOW to get a clearer picture of the movement of all the chains and the non ratcheting tensioner.You are so close to solving the cause now,i think.Great video ,IVAN
Could be Chrysler coolant in that with the same owners, Maybe some more bad oil filter and oil changes as owner did before. Timing parts good clean oil period.
Ivan. You have restored my faith. I'm much happier that you're doing both sides when you're in there, makes perfect sense. Kudos for doing the crankshaft seal at the same time. You're a good man. Many a time I've started doing a job and thought out loud, why did I decide to do this🙄😀 Those single & double eared factory clips are a ballache! However, they do seal very very well. Sorry mate, I laughed at points during this, only because I've been there myself. Hope you don't end up replacing camshafts because the pressed on lobes have moved😮
Good points, Dave. Of course Ivan can’t tell if pressed on parts have moved without a timing kit, can he?! You have definitely described the nightmare before Christmas.
Hi, Ivan your videos are so good and love to watch them. This timing chain tensioner is so stupid design. So the only fix for that i can see is to install the check valve on the whole, preventing the drain of the oil from tensioner and loosing the chain. So basically fix the poor engineering design. I am saying that because Mercedes M276 engines had similar issue with the timing chain tensioners, they drained the oil and loose the chain in almost every start. So Mercedes came up with the idea installing check valves in order to fix the problem with the rattle and eventually jump the tweets. It did work. I love your videos, and i did learn so many things which are helping me in my job. Regards!
Not only Italian cars have weird access requirements: On a Mk3 Ford Mondeo, to change the engine thermostat, you take a headlight out and work through the hole!
Very interesting Ivan and I greatly enjoy hearing your observations about what you're seeing. It looks like the pass side tensioner just uses a spring to keep pressure when there's no oil pressure and it's either weak or just not up to keeping the chain tight when the chain is stretched. All this at 60K is beyond belief. I hope you can get away from this job long enough to have a wonderful Holiday with your family.
Nah they're all stuck like that. You feel like they're bout to snap then they pop off. Scared the shit out of me my first few timing sets now im not even worried bout it lol
I can't understand that you change the chains and assemble the engine without first checking if there are bent valves in the cylinder head. You may end up having to take it all apart again
Right man on the job, confident thats a fix, if this went to a dealer would of been mis-diagnosed resulting in a replacement engine after delays and BS and customers pants pulled down big time, internals not that clean dor 60k miles lazy/lack of oil and filter changes results in shorter chain life often and so often proved in modern minimal chain sized engines BMW,Fiat,VAG etc
Now I can't wait to see you layout the original chains against the new chains and see the actual stretch difference. I hope you've shown your wife how "sexy" Italian engine design looks with bolts removed. :)
Yeah, that's unbelievable that the chains are THAT stretched in 60k miles. I thought a tensioner was going to be an issue because I couldn't fathom the chains would be looking like they had 250k miles on them!
@@volvo09 Inane decision not to change oil filter until it collapsed starved the engine for oil, probably resulted in premature chain wear. I wonder how the bearings look??? I'm thinking like this 😝
@@JohnDoe-yj5ng how would one do that? That would be a nearly impossible engine swap on a car like this. The amount of computers that would have to be figured out, and the time involved would cost as much as a new Maserati.
I will bet oe service info would tell you to put radiator into service position like an Audi. I did an Audi a8 and step one put radiator into service position. You basically take out a bunch of fender bolts and front clip folds up to give you a lot of room to take timming cover off.
Son Damn.... The worst I ever had was timing work on a 1967 Jaguar E-Type 4.2 straight 6. Did one Honda Civic and hated that. I have also dealt with "stretchy" belts on Japanese motors but nothing like this! Painful to watch and see you suffer but I'm with you in spirit.
I replaced my tensioners on my 5.4 Triton 3 valve to the older ones with ratchets so no more leaking seals to loose oil pressure, some people say the ratchet type can over tighten and stretch the chain but time will tell.
Former Maserati tech here... If you want a good example of the vehicle not being diy.... Just look at the oil service. Did you see where the filter is at? What were they thinking lololololol. Fun fact.... So many of the parts are stamped "made in Mexico" - - seriously. Thanks for the fun videos, Ivan!
Have you seen this issue before?
Why no ratcheting tensioner on the right side?
What's the service interval for timing components?
Inquiring minds want to know! Thanks!
former Maserati tech my tuches
@@dans_Learning_Curve likely the hp fuel and vacuum pumps would cause it to harmonic vibrate and hammer itself to death in short order.
This Maserati V6 timing system is based off the Pentastar V6 engine design. The first half of the original Pentastar V6 prototype engine program utilized a ratchet style right bank secondary tensioner. It was decided mid-protype program to revise the right bank secondary tensioner to a non-ratchet style to allow for camshaft, phaser, roller finger follower and valve spring service without the need to remove the front cover (but hold tools required). Removing the front cover in a transverse application is a time consuming effort and costly. Maybe the right decision at the time (pre-production) would have been to revise the front cover design to allow access (without removal) for retracting of the right bank tensioner (with ratchet) and re-installion of the release pin (cost, potential for oil leaks and access with respect to other FEAD components were negatives). Also, several engineers recommended to never turn the crankshaft backwards (CCW from the front) during service work as the right bank secondary tensioner might compress enough to allow the chain to jump. Test engines run 1500 hours at WOT between peak torque and peak HP rpm would exhibit less than half the amount of wear observed on this engine. Nice work thus far.
Timing chains do not stretch.
They wear at each pivot point.
When I did not have timing tools to hold my cams. I bought extra vice grips. Wrapped the area where I placed my grips and locked each one in place. Then got my chains replaced.
The thing about luxury cars is that the maintenance costs are proportional to the original purchase price. If a timing job on a $45k car costs $3k, then the cost on a $100k car will be at least $6k. And if it is a low volume car, then there is a 1.5 to 2x multiplier on top of that. The thing is, those costs never change through the lifetime of the car as it depreciates, so that $100k car which is now $10k doesn't magically have maintenance cost that are 90% lower....
Ivan you took it one cause when everyone else says no or can't figure it out especially dealership's that eat and breathe certain cars people come you... The unsung independent mechanic that fearlessly finds a way gets it done and finds ways to save people money... God bless your talent brother!
I Just want to thank you, Ivan for the great content throughout the year. You are an inspiration to us all to perform proper fault finding and diagnosis, before loading the parts canon!
I wish you and all your family a very Merry Christmas and a happy and healthy 2023. 🎄
Wow unbelievable, you must really like this customer. I can only imagine the hours that went into this project. I hope the customer doesn't have a stroke when you hand him the bill. Merry Christmas to you and the family. Hope your New Year is both prosperous and enjoyable.
I think we'll be seeing 'Part 14' by the time it's ready for a road test...
I would have a seperate charge schedule for exotics or newer european cars.. 500.00 minimum, then 200.00 an hour after the first hour,, every one of them requires hours of research, the parts are harder to find, special tools and diagnostic equiptment is often needed, patch thru programs purchases, having to deal with stealerships for parts. when all is said and done ALOT of time will have been spent on this car.. then if there is a problem in the next 6 months they will be right back in your driveway, claiming it has the exact same problem.
the dealer would charge 10K probably
hey Peter, there is no need for any affection toward a customer where the dollars are at high flow
@@randy1ization Yup, if they wanna play they gotta pay.
I was there 30 years ago pulling dash out of Jaguar with twenty real wood grain inserts. Taught me to say NO ‼️. You should have taken your advice in pt 1 and let someone else do it.
Your determination is inspiring to younger techs but us old retired ones just shake our heads and wonder when you will learn ? Your mild cussing the car out brings back all those old memories 🤪
Ivan Ivan you're the man if you can't do it no one can 🧑🔧
Side by side comparison of the chains before you fit the new chains, see the stretch.. an no way would i do this job. brave man.
My eyes have seen the glory of the coming Maserati with a dodgy tensioner system and the design engineers keep marching on. Glory glory and back to Milano.
As I said in the previous video it's not a Chrysler engine, Chrysler were only contracted to cast and machine the engine block. The engine is actually built in Italy by Ferrari, so most OE parts will come from Italy. I don't think that engine has been looked after very well, that's a lot of oil varnish for 60k miles. Is it even the original engine?
Zdorovo Ivan ! I hpoe you charging dealer rate for doing this job. Over the years in garage buiseness I understood that euro market cars are made to be worked on with engine out. you drop it and change everything you can while its on the floor.Definately ther are ways around it, with experience you find ways to cheat. Great job man👍
why would the customer go to him over the dealer if he is charging dealer rates?
@@111-c7x2t Because people thrust dealers less and less
It’s jobs like this that can really frustrate even the best mechanics. Truly a rabbit hole project and once you’re committed you have no choice but to finish or fail. Good on ya Ivan.
I recently did the heater core on my 1967 Galaxie fastback 390 with factory air conditioning and it was quite the job and I was a little bit upset with Ford,,, after watching this video I'm proud of circa 1967 Ford.... lol
One trick I have used a number of times. I have a small 1 ton scissor jack that I use to jam between the engine and the surrounding structure. Jack it up a bit and move the whole engine/transmission assembly on the rubber mounts. I can get an additional 1/2-1" of clearance, which is often enough. I do use a small piece of plywood to protect the paint from the jack pad.
correction - "to protect the paint of the jack pad"
You can’t scare this dude! Absolutely fearless
Yes. He's always pushing.
Ivan being challenged by a Maserati. It doesn't get any better than this!
Cause he’s Russian 😊
This dude is freaking solid msn, respect!!
10,000 mile extended oil changes wore out the chains. Same problem as the GM 3.6L engines have and even more of a pain to fix on those. At least you don't have to pull the engine on the Maserati.
I knew you could do it! So satisfying to see the root cause. This case reminds me of a life lesson: It's not whether you CAN do it, you definitely can - it's whether you feel it's the correct and profitable thing to do. My hope is that the owner is compensating you very well for your efforts. Often, folks who don't do the work don't see the value in what is done or appreciate the efforts on their behalf. Some of them just use willing workers to save them a few dollars and move on to the next luxury item. Been there, been used that way, but avoided a few, too!
FYI, I use a flush nail cuter pliers to reinstall those clamps. Did it several times on VW CV joint boots. Did dull the cutters to keep from cutting the clamps.........Jay
With the chains worn so bad, look at the cam journal state, they could have damage. Even if it runs fine after this timing job, it could be on borrowed time, if any bearing started to get wiped out or if dirt got past the oil filter bypass. Or it could be fine, it's a gamble.
Ratcheting tensioners are superior but I see other big names using non ratcheting types too. I think they size the dimensions so that a new chain won't be able to jump teeth because the tensioner won't be able to retract enough to allow that.
Can't wait for Part 27....
Nah, don't worry. If all goes well, this'll end up being a 4 or at most 5 part series. Place your bets!😀
I love the Chrysler logo on the phasers and tensioner
You don't know why you sign up for this crap, you ask?, I know why, and it is becuase you like to learn new things, you like to help people, it is fun to fix things. LOL. What a job. I appreciate you for all your hard work and dedication to what you do best. Have a very Merry Xmas.
The Christmas 🎄 gift that keeps on giving.......
I think a big problem for these timing chains is extended oil change intervals. Change oil more often is my experience. Max every 5-6.000 miles.
Knew you would fix it although you said in first part you wouldn't ;)
Watching this video makes me so happy to own $500 Citroen Xsara 2000 model year with a TU5JP engine. Timing belt and tensioner change takes 30 minutes, 60 with water pump. There is 4-6 inch free space to all directions. You need a 13 mm socket, 10 mm wrench, 6 mm socket, 15 mm bolt and 5 mm hex key to lock the engine. No special tools needed. It is not a Maserati but the pain of keeping a Maserati on the road, including time and money is higher than driving a Citroen.
Hi Janne! Haven't seen you in the comments section in a while...Good to hear from you 🙂 Yes after doing this job EVERY OTHER CAR seems trivial 😂
I like my 4cyl Audis with TDIs (AHU and it's relatives and AXR/AWX). Not much different with the timing job, though on the C5/B5 you of course need to take off the front fascia. Adds about an hour to this...
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics thank you and Merry Christmas to You and your family. Keep up the great work. Your videos are the gem of the TH-cam.
As Eric o would say, you have to know when to hold them and you have to know when to fold them.
Once you've decided to take the job Ivan, try and make the best of it. We all get frustrated, however I don't recall my bitching ever making the job better.
Hi
I'm walking my dog and not really watching the video just listening, and I actually busted out laughing when you remove the alternator belt, "piece of shit" hahaha
Lots of work still ahead. I would toss all of the permanent clamps and replace them with standard ones. Enjoying our Christmas gift video series, Ivan. Keep up the great work!
Taking the front end off is less hassle - bumper off, cross-brace off, rads/coolers out - you'll just end up with heartbreak trying to reach down to everything. Off with the front - then everything is there in front of you. Have a big pack of hose clips to hand, cut all the old ones, drill all the rivets, fit new. :-)
Treat it like an Audi or an Iveco - front off is always easier. You'd want protection on all the paintwork.. maserati owners tend to like their paint unscratched.. no idea why. :-) At a dealership, this job would be insanely expensive - bear that in mind. They would use all OEM parts, clips, their hourly rate would be off the scale & the final bill would have 4 noughts on the end - you'd buy a car for the bill... Hope you're charging appropriately.
I agree, it's one of those jobs that seems like a lot of work up front but it's invariably worth the time spent.
Chains are like I said - stretched - but one more thing you want to pay a LOT of heed to are the variators Ivan - there's little chance that at least 2 aren't borked or semi borked. Check the hell out of them for slop or you will put it all back together & still have similar issues with the cams on that bank being off-time. Treat them as small dual mass flywheels - see is there play back & forth when the cams locked.
Agreed front off and on a lift it will be less frustrating
Great advice on this car. Highly unusual, as it is.
Wow what a nightmare only you would have the confidence and patience to attempt that repair . Hope there's no oil leaks on reassembly. We have those single use hose clamps in my game have to cut them off without damaging the hose or surrounding equipment really frustrating and time consuming. Looking forward to seeing it running again . Anyway merry Xmas to you and your wife and hope you get a break to rest and recuperate over Xmas.
Ivan, you are inspiring! As I struggle with timing chain guides and timing cover on my BMW V8 (M62TU) right now! Today! I realize that I need to stop whining and appreciate the vastly superior engineering of old (2003) BMW. I will never own a turbo or an Italian nightmare (before Christmas). Thanks, again, Ivan!
Yes, a well known problem on those V8s. They are great engines, however
Actually these f160s are well built and many have over 160k miles with no chain issues.but you know that and realize bmw is garbage
Ivan, you have real GUTS! The best aspect of the American version of the English language is that we have the most colorful filthy words to use while attempting to work on cars like Maserati's. And I thought you had guts when you replaced your wife's Nissan transmission! Nice work you brave brave man!
Hey Ivan, I can feel your pain and how you regret agreeing to do this job. My brother owns an independent repair shop in Calgary Canada and he specializes in European and Exotic vehicles. He gets calls from dealerships Like Maserati, Bently, and Land Rover to refer their customers to his shop because technicians at the dealership refuse to work on those cars once they are out of warranty. Why? you may ask... well because the job takes way more time that the book says, they get paid a flat rate, and the technicians will not make money on the repairs. They have to do it only if it is under factory warranty and most like usually those repairs are out of warranty. So the dealership quotes the customer a ridiculous amount of money or offers up a trade-in value as you said to move them on the new ride. Some customers just trade in the car and move on others just go to the independent shop usually it is cheaper than the dealership. And if the trade-in vehicle is in good shape that could be resold as a used car in their lot, they send that to the independent shop to be repaired and flip over. Something that my brother's shop has seen many times. Now you know why an exotic car like this one retail value is so low, sometimes it is cheaper than a preowned Camry... Well, the answer is on this video, too expensive to repair for the short life that it has between repairs.
Interesting the dealers are sending exotics to independent mechanics before selling (presumably as factory certified). More interesting the dealer mechanics can refuse to work on cars.
@@dosgos have you seen the preparation and qualifications of the dealer mechanics? They don't even know how to use an oscilloscope. They are there to do basic services and diagnostic. Anything more complicated it falls on the expert master technician and not all the dealership has one on site. The headquarters gets involved if it is under warranty do to research purposes mainly.
Identical to the 3.6 pentastar. The timing tool also holds the phasers so you can torque the oil cntrol valves. Once chains are on it should line up. With chains loose you can turn cams with wrench on the hex part behind the first cam main.
3.6 pentastar timing kit WILL be needed to work on cam sprockets ! Careful Bank 2 intake code looks more like actuator/phaser issue,check cam diff in data (no more than 10' diff)
Ivan, you are a brave, brave man. Merry Christmas!
Now this is why mechanics won't let people in the shops The first time I've heard you cuss this is me on the daily these freaking engineers welcome to the big league's my guy.
We all occasionally get that repair from Hades. We don't want to do it and feel insecure with our skill set due to lack of info and experience working on a particular make and model. It is hard to find that proverbial "light at the end of the tunnel".
That humble " hehe Piece of Shit" after you cut the alternator belt had me laughing.
Ivan - I do not think you will be voted "Maserati Salesman of the Year"
There usually a couple of dowel pins and silastic making it hard to release unfastened timing covers. Just pry away and hope you don't snap a corner off.
Such respect for you doing this repair, hope all goes well 🙏🏻
This repair might give me symptoms as described in your name 🤣🤣👍
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Don't you see a lot of nutcrackers around Christmas?
Patience Ivan. It's an adventure!
Reminds me of my Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 twin turbo I had for ten years. Couldn't work on it without cutting the hell out of yourself reaching through what few gaps were left in the engine bay. I spy a Swivel led light ! Great light but I found the lens cover housing cracks over time and I had to superglue that cover on both my lights, one proactively and one after it cracked. Have a great holiday and thanks for the informative vids.
I may be nuts but this looks like a standard 3.6L pentastar v6. In that case yes the oil pan had to come off to get the 4 bolts out that go into the lower timing cover.
that timing setup reminds me of the dodge 4.7. i had to replace headgaskets and the timing chains and making sure its all lined up kicked my ass. i had the cams lined up but i was one tooth off on the crank. took me 3 tries before i finally got it perfect lol.
Ivan what a wonderful Christmas present you gave yourself. One thing for certain is that you are a very determined, dedicated, and smart person. Some might say you are a fool, I say anyone dealing with you is truly blessed. I enjoy your work and sometimes, as in this case, your extreme suffering. Thank you for the ride......Pete
Those are otiker clamps you can get an otiker pliers at Lowes. They also sell the clamps they call them something else. We use those clamps to fasten soda lines. It's a German invention.
I'll be curious to see the comparison of the old vs. new chain guides.
The old ones look like the chain has worn down really, really deep into the guide itself, causing everything to be slack/extended tensioner. I can see the oil pan coming off to clean the bits out of the pick-up tube if this is the case.
All because the maintenance wasn't done correctly.
Ivan, You are crazy for taking that repair on, But i respect you very much. Great job man.
Ohh, there'e a dealership in Doylestown , pa too.
Those clamps look like the one time use clamp on the pcv of my 2011 outback. There is a special tool. Brand Caillau, type clic, clic-r, $90 online. Made in France. We use the same pliers in the special tools kit of a military vehicle I taught mechanics on. The jaws are similar to the tool used to install cv boot clamps. I bought a set from summit racing. I prefer to have the oem tools for my vehicles when I can though they are expensive and often difficult to get.
They just as well have used belts on this if the chains stretch that easily and have to be changed that often.
I have not heard of any other engine with this problem.
Happy holidays, Ivan!
I just did a timing and head gasket replacement on a 2011 jeep with the 3.6, and it looks like the same. Mine wasn't this difficult and I had much more room. Those clamps look like a nightmare
I removed the oil pan and replaced all the chains and tensioner. Both primary chains were really tight going back on.
Ivan, sir, you definitely have more KAHONIES than I have. I would have helped the customer get all the right parts, then found one of those "Import Car Specialists" or told the customer to find a Maserati Dealer for this job....
I want to add that I am amazed that those chains are stretched.....can wait to see the side-by-side comparison.
I agree with James Ward's comment. The phasers are guilty until proven innocent. You should just replace them and have the owner bite the bullet on the parts cannon. I've read and seen too many problems with Ford Triton 3 valve engines, especially ones that haven't had regular oil changes. They aren't really fixed until the old phasers are replaced with new Motorcraft genuine parts. I will never buy a car with direct injection or valve phasers, or a turbo. Too much stuff to wear out fast and go wrong.
Maserati mechanics watching are feeling their job security going way up!
a lot of hard shifts and not keeping up with the oil changes might prematurely stretch those chains.
I'd definitely prefer to have something like this with a stick-shift if possible (to help smooth out those shifts, plus it would just be a lot more fun).
The Chrysler 2.7L had a similar thing with it's timing chain tensioner, which someone came up with the idea of sticking a "cam-chain block" in (a little block of plastic you could bolt in there so in *theory* the chain couldn't back off far enough for it to jump when the oil pressure dropped -- which it could do when it was 1/2 quart low and being driven around corners in a spirited fashion)
The nightmare before Christmas, indeed. I just love this! We are with you every painful step of the way. You are answering the question, 'what if' my normal middle class self bought a cheep Maserati... It's a 20 hour job with an Italian pit crew, shew.
Look at it this way.
If you can do this, you can do anything!!!
Wowza…This is why I like my early 2000 ford vehicles lol, easy to work on!!! Good job, sir! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Like so many vehicles, they are primarily set up for factory floor assembly convenience, not so much repair access.
This is how I feel doing a simple water pump job. I'm curious as to why bank 2 phasers aren't synced up.
I’ve heard it’s lack of lubrication that causes the chain to “stretch”and actually chain stretch is nothing but pin wear- perhaps that lack of oil pressure caused those chains to lengthen? Whatcha think?
On newer V6 and V8 audis's (with chain), this is a engine/gearbox out job (because the chain is between the engine and the gearbox).
Audi s4 / s6 & others timing chains on the "back" of the head, eng/trans/front subframe off before you even start, love to see your tantrum if you get one of those in 🤣🤣🤣
NO WAY lol
Now that I think of it, that might be better since with the engine out, there'll be lots of free access. Tight spaces are my pet peeve.
hey wonton, which S4 has the chain on the back of the head? do enlighten us
@@111-c7x2t You seem a little testy -
RS4 - 3.0l TFSI / 4.2l V8
@@wotnoturbo thanks! RS is not an S
Thanks for sticking with it! An encouragement to take on the unknown and dominate it! It would have been cool to hear a slight Italian accent as you progressed.
Those chrysler parts in the maserati box are pretty reasonable!! In the 70's we used to buy VW parts for the Porsche cars. Points were $10 instaed of $90
Wow, I just started watching your videos when you were working on the beached Mercedes during Thanksgiving. I'm really impressed with your talents and your diagnostic abilities. I look forward to watching your videos, even my wife loves your abilities and calmness. She gets annoyed when I watch and listen to the "Scotty" videos. She hates the hand waving and the yelling that comes with Scotty! I share the same feeling you do with European cars. I have a fondness for the Japanese, mainly Toyota. Keep up the patience.
I felt anxiety just watching. Good luck, you got this! Merry Christmas Ivan!
Is the timing chain elongation a consequence of the previous low oil pressure problem, perhaps?
Now this chain setup makes more sense,IVAN.The motor rotates clockwise so the fixed chain guides are on the right with the chain travel downward?On the left side the chains travel upward ,this is as you stand in front looking directly at the motor.That's why the chain adjusters are to the left OR SLACK side of the chain.but you're right in asking why only have 1 ratcheting chain adjuster and it BEING on the drivers side? IF the car were to BACKFIRE,the ratcheting tension-er would keep the chain FROM JUMPING teeth.But on the passengers side with the crank going backwards the tension-er MAY NOT have enough pressure to keep the chain tight.I don't think the chains are worn badly,but the plastic guides could be worn or broken?Try to move the crank slowly backwards NOW to get a clearer picture of the movement of all the chains and the non ratcheting tensioner.You are so close to solving the cause now,i think.Great video ,IVAN
I wonder if having the high pressure pump on the right side of the engine may explain the use of a non ratcheting tensioner on that side.
Could be Chrysler coolant in that with the same owners, Maybe some more bad oil filter and oil changes as owner did before. Timing parts good clean oil period.
Ivan.
You have restored my faith.
I'm much happier that you're doing both sides when you're in there, makes perfect sense.
Kudos for doing the crankshaft seal at the same time. You're a good man.
Many a time I've started doing a job and thought out loud, why did I decide to do this🙄😀
Those single & double eared factory clips are a ballache! However, they do seal very very well.
Sorry mate, I laughed at points during this, only because I've been there myself.
Hope you don't end up replacing camshafts because the pressed on lobes have moved😮
Good points, Dave. Of course Ivan can’t tell if pressed on parts have moved without a timing kit, can he?! You have definitely described the nightmare before Christmas.
Well done Ivan ! I am sitting on the edge of my chair watching you performing miracles. A q7 TDI owner from sunny Spain.
looking at how much much the tensioner is out means chains have stretched. this also happened to some engines from BMW, VAG group...nothing new.
Hi, Ivan your videos are so good and love to watch them. This timing chain tensioner is so stupid design. So the only fix for that i can see is to install the check valve on the whole, preventing the drain of the oil from tensioner and loosing the chain. So basically fix the poor engineering design. I am saying that because Mercedes M276 engines had similar issue with the timing chain tensioners, they drained the oil and loose the chain in almost every start. So Mercedes came up with the idea installing check valves in order to fix the problem with the rattle and eventually jump the tweets. It did work. I love your videos, and i did learn so many things which are helping me in my job. Regards!
Hang in there Ivan, you doing a great job. Just be very observant and careful thought. It's just a motor like any other.
Holy Crap ! You are much braver than I am ! 😮
Ivan we all feel with you there has been Italian car's that to do a valve job you had to remove the left rear wheel first 🤔😨
Not only Italian cars have weird access requirements: On a Mk3 Ford Mondeo, to change the engine thermostat, you take a headlight out and work through the hole!
Very interesting Ivan and I greatly enjoy hearing your observations about what you're seeing. It looks like the pass side tensioner just uses a spring to keep pressure when there's no oil pressure and it's either weak or just not up to keeping the chain tight when the chain is stretched. All this at 60K is beyond belief.
I hope you can get away from this job long enough to have a wonderful Holiday with your family.
I thought that timing cover was going to break for sure, good job.
Nah they're all stuck like that. You feel like they're bout to snap then they pop off. Scared the shit out of me my first few timing sets now im not even worried bout it lol
I can't understand that you change the chains and assemble the engine without first checking if there are bent valves in the cylinder head.
You may end up having to take it all apart again
See part 1 for compression waveform my friend 😄
As I am watching Ivan's Italian nightmare; I am taken back to an old jingle from a car commercial way back when--
*_Have you driven a Ford lately_* 😆
Right man on the job, confident thats a fix, if this went to a dealer would of been mis-diagnosed resulting in a replacement engine after delays and BS and customers pants pulled down big time, internals not that clean dor 60k miles lazy/lack of oil and filter changes results in shorter chain life often and so often proved in modern minimal chain sized engines BMW,Fiat,VAG etc
Ivan Ivan some engineers spent months designing those belts and you're resorting to calling them junk kudos
Good luck... It would surely keep me up nights working on it. Very interesting project. Thanks for the experience and merry Christmas.
Probably the front bumper should be taken off first, to make it easier. But oh well.
It warms my heart to see an otherworldy mechanic such as your self struggle with things like removing a cooling fan - gives me hope!
You should just buy the tensioner for a 3.6 v6 pentastar engine. Looks exactly same and both there tens come with ratchets.
Very cool! I still think it was lack of oil changes that did it...
Now I can't wait to see you layout the original chains against the new chains and see the actual stretch difference. I hope you've shown your wife how "sexy" Italian engine design looks with bolts removed. :)
Yeah, that's unbelievable that the chains are THAT stretched in 60k miles.
I thought a tensioner was going to be an issue because I couldn't fathom the chains would be looking like they had 250k miles on them!
@@volvo09 Inane decision not to change oil filter until it collapsed starved the engine for oil, probably resulted in premature chain wear.
I wonder how the bearings look??? I'm thinking like this 😝
Yes, I'd like to see the difference between new and used with the chains.
Why not just replace it with a Nissan VQ engine, like, say, from a Infiniti G37, or, the GTR engine? Japanese quality and durability!
@@JohnDoe-yj5ng how would one do that? That would be a nearly impossible engine swap on a car like this. The amount of computers that would have to be figured out, and the time involved would cost as much as a new Maserati.
Is it too late to do an LS swap ???
It has the right difficulty factor
I will bet oe service info would tell you to put radiator into service position like an Audi. I did an Audi a8 and step one put radiator into service position. You basically take out a bunch of fender bolts and front clip folds up to give you a lot of room to take timming cover off.
Son Damn.... The worst I ever had was timing work on a 1967 Jaguar E-Type 4.2 straight 6. Did one Honda Civic and hated that. I have also dealt with "stretchy" belts on Japanese motors but nothing like this! Painful to watch and see you suffer but I'm with you in spirit.
I replaced my tensioners on my 5.4 Triton 3 valve to the older ones with ratchets so no more leaking seals to loose oil pressure, some people say the ratchet type can over tighten and stretch the chain but time will tell.