You're right. I think the questions one should be asking when starting out a character are: a) Which are my fastest moves? and b) which moves should I not toss out without good reason? This of course pertains only to frame data as there are other factors to consider, ie. range
Tekken and Pokken - especially Pokken, believe it or not - embody this. You gotta' know the boundaries, and which characters have different ones. After that, spacing and counterplay.
IMO that is where range comes into play. Because usually a decent negative move will have some redeeming bonus with maybe added pushback on block or even something on hit/CH. I also like watching experienced players use these tools effectively in specific portions. It may take a bit because you have to look into the details but that is where the sauce is at.
Just remember: spacing plays just as big a role as the numbers. Doesn't matter how plus or minus something is on block if your buttons are too stubby to reach out and touch them.
I think that part is better learnt in-game when you eventually fail to punish moves like that. Because then it naturally leads you into learning about push-block and attack-ranges.
@@RASENGAN1081 cancelling blocked 5L into whiffed 2L shortens the recovery by 2 frames, you become -7 instead of -9 Math: 5L has a blockstun of 10F but recovery of 19F which leaves him -9 if blocked 2L has a startup of 7F and recovery of 10F (5L blockstun 10F) - (2L 7F startup) - (2L recovery 10F) = 10 - 7 - 10 = -7
I think Ultimate frame data does it pretty well. Shows the animation, the startup, active frames, and how safe it is on shield in big colorful banners over the animation. The rest that is less important to beginners is underneath.
It is also clear how much invincibility moves have. It doesn't end with models being coloured or the actual frames, the actual game has invincibility and intangibilty display. The game could use more information or recordings, but being able to slow down the game and play frame by frame is pretty powerful.
@@happycamperds9917 Right, I just think it is worth stating that we do have some resources that anyone can lab without Internet. Tekken was very different till you could pay for the privilege.
One thing I like a lot on shoryuken is that along with the images of the moves, there's an outline of where are the hitboxes for each move. That's very nice 'cause some moves animations can be elusive, and it also helps you grasp spacing better
When i first started getting into fighting games i had heard about frame data and was afraid of it. I thought it was gonna be some algebra involved or something, then when i learned what is was i laughed at myself "This is what i was afraid of? XD" I mostly played MK9 at the time so when MKX came out with frame data in the moves list it made learning the game so much quicker.
See, at least you took that step. Most people use the frame data explanation as to why they can't get into fighting games because they're too hard to understand and we keep trying to tell them frame data isn't really important, it's just useful once you understand the fighting game concepts.
@@Mar3eck it is important especially if you’re playing ranked or competitive and just throw out a bunch of unsafe moves on block and go against a good player who can punish that.
thx so much bro, it was absolutely overwhelming looking at frame data, I was thinking like, do people ACTUALLY memorize all this for every character?!?!?! This was by far the simplest explanation I've ever heard
literally the best video that explains it simply. I feel almost all of frame data videos just gives you may more information that you need. some of the information feels self explanatory and kinda makes understand it more confusing.
Frame data is a lot less important in SSB than in fighting games because pushback is variable. It doesn't matter if you're +30 if the opponent is flung to fullscreen on impact.
I got into fighting games by watching SFIV tournaments. I think the commentators made it seem pretty straightforward, especially with context clues. Less frames was more fast, and more negative frames meant they had longer to hit you. Maybe it helps when there’s an example on the screen.
The pictures on that site are super cool. My least favourite thing about labbing is going through the movelist of a character I don't play looking for the shit I want to lab.
GG. Thank you very much for breaking it down. Be great if could make more tutorials like this for simpletons like myself who's main plan is basically get in the opponents face and try to force attacks through.
I think the use of frame data depends on the game and the player. I think most of the time all the different steps of learning can be interlinked, for example if you're learning setups frame data can tell you which moves have a lot of advantage, or are really active(i.e. good to meaty with). Frame data and hitboxes are really just all the core parts of a move cut down into all it's individual parts, and if you treat it like that it can be really good tool for learning imo.
When I'm trying to learn a game or new character I just play till I start to get the moves in muscle memory. After that it's combos and setups. Frame data and punishment is last. Practice mode right off the bat is a huge time wasting trap in the beginning.
I legit spend maybe 10-20 minutes on a new character in training mode just to find my poke, anti air, jump in attack, projectiles or rushing attacks, and then learn a simple bnb and just play games after that.
@@Sir_Robin_of_Camelot Idk man I started with t7. Spent alot of time in training mode and fighting bots to try to learn the game but basically wasted half a year when I could have just been playing real people. I learned combos but when the pressure came I couldn't remember the inputs for the launches so I would just freeze up when they actually happened. The most important thing I feel like is muscle memory with your specific character at least the way I learn.
@@olishonick That's a fair point but I don't mean wait 6 months, I just mean wait more than for other games. I mainly say that because knowing the frame situation is such a huge part of Tekken. Choosing the optimal punish, frame traps with plus moves, etc. , but that's also an ongoing process considering the movelists in Tekken. I found Tekkens neutral more ambiguous than say, SF. It took me longer to become competent in T7 than SF3S before paying attention to specific frame data. Maybe I'm overstating it a bit tbf, our brains can only incorporate so much of our training into real games at a time anyway. I can relate to the freeze up moments, that's when you know your training mode self is way better than live game self. I'm trying to break free from that approach too. It's working fairly well.
If you're asking what that means, priority comes into play when both players throw out attacks and they hit at the same time. The attack with priority will stuff the attack that doesn't. The thing that usually determines priority is the strength of the attack. Mediums have priority over lights and heavies have priority over both lights and mediums. That's just a general rule of thumb though, some moves might have special properties that don't follow those rules.
I only learned just last year about the "take one more to be safe" idea of frame data where "startup" includes the first active frame (if a move takes 3f to start up and hits on frame 4 its a 4f move etc) This kind of thing is omega confusing to the point where the community might be consistent but the frame data included in the game won't do this, leading to confusion. But the "take one extra" philosophy makes sense when doing frame data math so.... Frames are even trickier than they first appear
Games where the frame data aren't listed like that are the exception. Almost universally games count a moves start up by how long it takes to get to the first active frame. Think of it as "how long does it take for this move to hit the opponent?"
@@LaowPing sorry I confused myself in that first reply, please ignore what I wrote there. Whichever is the most intuitive and the most people use I'm game for. I guess just the way my brain worked intuitively didn't match up with how most places write down frames
Then you have to frame-trap the opponent to dissuade them from mashing on defense. Or ending the blockstring in a safe move that pushes them far enough. There's also the YoYo setups, but I'm not familiar with those.
I totally get it for Tekken and SF but for GGxrd, i picked up Potemkin and checked out if i'm punishable when I land Megafist Forward ON HIT.... Nope. Dustloop just gives you on block stuff. Aite. Cool Cool.
I was looking at 3s frame data before I started playing a bit ago and I was like "hmm... HM... yes... Are... Are there 3f jabs? -12 is safe, huh... How?" I didn't understand shit, but I took away that Q can dash punch and it's generally safe, to me that's enough
Everything has always worked in pretty much the same way. The information was just not available in the 90s/2000s/childhood. That being said, the Core-A Gaming video about "Why Button Mashing Doesn't Work" is very well-written and goes through all of it in 16 minutes. It's this one, if you're curious about it: th-cam.com/video/_R0hbe8HZj0/w-d-xo.html
This is the reason why fighting games should focus less on selling to the mainstream and start marketing to nerds instead. The EVE online spreadsheet types would lap all this frame data up.
@@upcastplanet4808 that’s a brand new fighting game though. Nothing was simplified from previous dragon ball z games. In fact that is the most complicated main stream anime fighting game I can think of.
As someone who doesn't take fighting games seriously, I feel for all of ya'll who take the time to memorize and dissect every game all the way down to the frame data lol. That would just stress me out to no end.
The point of this video was to show that that's not what we do lol. Frame data is commonly misunderstood by people as being super important and having to "memorize" everything when really you can get far with just knowing general stuff. "What's my fastest move? Is this move safe on block? Do these moves leave a gap?" I've been playing BlazBlue for years and I know the start up and frame advantage of maybe 4 out of 30 different moves for my 2 characters. And when you do learn what's minus to what amount and what's not you learn it one move at a time depending on what problems you run into like Sajam showed when he scrolled past every move Dizzy had to find specifically the one move he was having trouble with. I promise you no one starts a new FG by going to dustloop, picking their character, and just looking at the list of numbers until they remember them all. Understanding how FGs are played at their core is miles more important than learning any frame data.
No one really does unless they're a super nerd and love the game that much. Just learn what moves are unsafe/safe for both you and your opponents character. At most you're probably learning the frame data of 3-5 moves per character (more for a game like tekken)
There's only a single game that requires frame data for most situations and that is Tekken, but it really boils down to knowing 3 or 4 punish moves and how fast they are. Its extremely basic fundamental shit. Hell I have thousands of hours in Marvel 3 and I dont know ANY frame data at all.
It's no different than learning a language. You learn what you absolutely need and then absorb little parts here and there, applying everything you learn on the way.
I think it's always handy to find out how negative a move can be and still be "safe" when going into a new game/character
This. It is just this.
You're right. I think the questions one should be asking when starting out a character are: a) Which are my fastest moves? and b) which moves should I not toss out without good reason? This of course pertains only to frame data as there are other factors to consider, ie. range
Tekken and Pokken - especially Pokken, believe it or not - embody this. You gotta' know the boundaries, and which characters have different ones. After that, spacing and counterplay.
IMO that is where range comes into play. Because usually a decent negative move will have some redeeming bonus with maybe added pushback on block or even something on hit/CH. I also like watching experienced players use these tools effectively in specific portions. It may take a bit because you have to look into the details but that is where the sauce is at.
Just remember: spacing plays just as big a role as the numbers. Doesn't matter how plus or minus something is on block if your buttons are too stubby to reach out and touch them.
I think that part is better learnt in-game when you eventually fail to punish moves like that. Because then it naturally leads you into learning about push-block and attack-ranges.
UI Goku's 5L is a prime example of it being minus on block but it pushes you out so far that it literally does not matter
@@RASENGAN1081 cancelling blocked 5L into whiffed 2L shortens the recovery by 2 frames, you become -7 instead of -9
Math:
5L has a blockstun of 10F but recovery of 19F which leaves him -9 if blocked
2L has a startup of 7F and recovery of 10F
(5L blockstun 10F) - (2L 7F startup) - (2L recovery 10F) = 10 - 7 - 10 = -7
**cries in SFV's Ken.
Spawn has entered the chat
Duuuude, this video is a GODSEND! I was reading dustloop and got stuck the moment I saw the ginormous frame data pages. This makes it digestible!
I think Ultimate frame data does it pretty well. Shows the animation, the startup, active frames, and how safe it is on shield in big colorful banners over the animation. The rest that is less important to beginners is underneath.
It is also clear how much invincibility moves have. It doesn't end with models being coloured or the actual frames, the actual game has invincibility and intangibilty display.
The game could use more information or recordings, but being able to slow down the game and play frame by frame is pretty powerful.
@@thelastgogeta I was referring more to ultimateframedata.com but that is the case too.
@@happycamperds9917 Right, I just think it is worth stating that we do have some resources that anyone can lab without Internet.
Tekken was very different till you could pay for the privilege.
Sajam: Blocks Dizzy's pillar
Also Sajam: *UNIVERSE, COME TO ME*
One thing I like a lot on shoryuken is that along with the images of the moves, there's an outline of where are the hitboxes for each move. That's very nice 'cause some moves animations can be elusive, and it also helps you grasp spacing better
When i first started getting into fighting games i had heard about frame data and was afraid of it. I thought it was gonna be some algebra involved or something, then when i learned what is was i laughed at myself "This is what i was afraid of? XD"
I mostly played MK9 at the time so when MKX came out with frame data in the moves list it made learning the game so much quicker.
See, at least you took that step. Most people use the frame data explanation as to why they can't get into fighting games because they're too hard to understand and we keep trying to tell them frame data isn't really important, it's just useful once you understand the fighting game concepts.
@@Mar3eck it is important especially if you’re playing ranked or competitive and just throw out a bunch of unsafe moves on block and go against a good player who can punish that.
@@TheRealTacthow fast or safe the move is important, remembering the actual numbers isn't
thx so much bro, it was absolutely overwhelming looking at frame data, I was thinking like, do people ACTUALLY memorize all this for every character?!?!?! This was by far the simplest explanation I've ever heard
Never had a problem myself but with FD apps highlighting key moves with color coded sections is a good step in the right direction.
literally the best video that explains it simply. I feel almost all of frame data videos just gives you may more information that you need. some of the information feels self explanatory and kinda makes understand it more confusing.
I always look at START UP, ACTIVE and RECOVERY and the differences between normal and EX version.
Thank you pronouncing Faust correctly, Max had me thinking I was crazy.
How the hell did he pronounce it?
@@Graestra Like it rhymes with Frost.
Glad you made this vid, I'm trying to figure out how to use frame data to understand what moves can combo into each other, particularly in melee
Frame data is a lot less important in SSB than in fighting games because pushback is variable. It doesn't matter if you're +30 if the opponent is flung to fullscreen on impact.
I got into fighting games by watching SFIV tournaments. I think the commentators made it seem pretty straightforward, especially with context clues. Less frames was more fast, and more negative frames meant they had longer to hit you. Maybe it helps when there’s an example on the screen.
It can be overwhelming at first but it's pretty simple when you start to understand it.
The pictures on that site are super cool. My least favourite thing about labbing is going through the movelist of a character I don't play looking for the shit I want to lab.
GG. Thank you very much for breaking it down.
Be great if could make more tutorials like this for simpletons like myself who's main plan is basically get in the opponents face and try to force attacks through.
I think you might have attached the wrong outro clip, talking about Will it Kill instead of frame data. But in either case, good video.
I think the use of frame data depends on the game and the player. I think most of the time all the different steps of learning can be interlinked, for example if you're learning setups frame data can tell you which moves have a lot of advantage, or are really active(i.e. good to meaty with). Frame data and hitboxes are really just all the core parts of a move cut down into all it's individual parts, and if you treat it like that it can be really good tool for learning imo.
I didn't know it was that easy, thank you.
0:31 when i'm looking at my frame data on KI to get that little boost to beat Eyedols.
When I'm trying to learn a game or new character I just play till I start to get the moves in muscle memory. After that it's combos and setups. Frame data and punishment is last. Practice mode right off the bat is a huge time wasting trap in the beginning.
This mans spittin
Troof. Except Tekken.
I legit spend maybe 10-20 minutes on a new character in training mode just to find my poke, anti air, jump in attack, projectiles or rushing attacks, and then learn a simple bnb and just play games after that.
@@Sir_Robin_of_Camelot Idk man I started with t7. Spent alot of time in training mode and fighting bots to try to learn the game but basically wasted half a year when I could have just been playing real people. I learned combos but when the pressure came I couldn't remember the inputs for the launches so I would just freeze up when they actually happened. The most important thing I feel like is muscle memory with your specific character at least the way I learn.
@@olishonick That's a fair point but I don't mean wait 6 months, I just mean wait more than for other games. I mainly say that because knowing the frame situation is such a huge part of Tekken. Choosing the optimal punish, frame traps with plus moves, etc. , but that's also an ongoing process considering the movelists in Tekken. I found Tekkens neutral more ambiguous than say, SF. It took me longer to become competent in T7 than SF3S before paying attention to specific frame data. Maybe I'm overstating it a bit tbf, our brains can only incorporate so much of our training into real games at a time anyway.
I can relate to the freeze up moments, that's when you know your training mode self is way better than live game self. I'm trying to break free from that approach too. It's working fairly well.
Thanks papa Sajam for the class
we need to get back to the "this move has priority"
If you're asking what that means, priority comes into play when both players throw out attacks and they hit at the same time. The attack with priority will stuff the attack that doesn't. The thing that usually determines priority is the strength of the attack. Mediums have priority over lights and heavies have priority over both lights and mediums.
That's just a general rule of thumb though, some moves might have special properties that don't follow those rules.
Everytime I look at frame data for strive I get depressed when I see anji's mostly negative kit.
I only learned just last year about the "take one more to be safe" idea of frame data where "startup" includes the first active frame (if a move takes 3f to start up and hits on frame 4 its a 4f move etc)
This kind of thing is omega confusing to the point where the community might be consistent but the frame data included in the game won't do this, leading to confusion. But the "take one extra" philosophy makes sense when doing frame data math so....
Frames are even trickier than they first appear
Games where the frame data aren't listed like that are the exception. Almost universally games count a moves start up by how long it takes to get to the first active frame. Think of it as "how long does it take for this move to hit the opponent?"
@@LaowPing sorry I confused myself in that first reply, please ignore what I wrote there.
Whichever is the most intuitive and the most people use I'm game for. I guess just the way my brain worked intuitively didn't match up with how most places write down frames
Any time I pick up a new character I just go find my best mash and my best poke using startup and recovery and who cares about the rest lol
Some moves in fighting games are hard to tell if its plus or not but I have never read frame data and got through fg's just fine :/
Good info ¿ links pages ?
Dustloop is a godsend
what happens if all your moves are negative on block or frame advantage on mid screen attacks. Bridget main here
Then you have to frame-trap the opponent to dissuade them from mashing on defense. Or ending the blockstring in a safe move that pushes them far enough. There's also the YoYo setups, but I'm not familiar with those.
now I have something to watch while i eat
Edit: first
I totally get it for Tekken and SF but for GGxrd, i picked up Potemkin and checked out if i'm punishable when I land Megafist Forward ON HIT.... Nope. Dustloop just gives you on block stuff. Aite. Cool Cool.
Im an engineering major, I can crunch the numbers it's just the terminology that trips me up, it's not intuitive.
I was looking at 3s frame data before I started playing a bit ago and I was like "hmm... HM... yes... Are... Are there 3f jabs? -12 is safe, huh... How?" I didn't understand shit, but I took away that Q can dash punch and it's generally safe, to me that's enough
They should have a college course on today’s fighting games. Everything is so complicated now 🥲
He's talking about a 20 year old game
Everything has always worked in pretty much the same way. The information was just not available in the 90s/2000s/childhood.
That being said, the Core-A Gaming video about "Why Button Mashing Doesn't Work" is very well-written and goes through all of it in 16 minutes. It's this one, if you're curious about it: th-cam.com/video/_R0hbe8HZj0/w-d-xo.html
Sajam just explained why it's actually real easy
Yeah framedata is intimidating but not that hard to learn.
Hes - 4 on block < me block kick now dp
This is the reason why fighting games should focus less on selling to the mainstream and start marketing to nerds instead. The EVE online spreadsheet types would lap all this frame data up.
The reason fighting games should only focus on nerds is a frame data chart?
This niche genre that already struggles to sell enough should become more niche?
No one buys games to play Microsoft Excel.
@@upcastplanet4808 how are fighting games suffering because of trying to appeal to more people?
@@upcastplanet4808 like what?
@@upcastplanet4808 that’s a brand new fighting game though. Nothing was simplified from previous dragon ball z games. In fact that is the most complicated main stream anime fighting game I can think of.
Obligatory, "what do the numbers mean mason?
Its just intergers my dude
As someone who doesn't take fighting games seriously, I feel for all of ya'll who take the time to memorize and dissect every game all the way down to the frame data lol. That would just stress me out to no end.
The point of this video was to show that that's not what we do lol. Frame data is commonly misunderstood by people as being super important and having to "memorize" everything when really you can get far with just knowing general stuff. "What's my fastest move? Is this move safe on block? Do these moves leave a gap?" I've been playing BlazBlue for years and I know the start up and frame advantage of maybe 4 out of 30 different moves for my 2 characters. And when you do learn what's minus to what amount and what's not you learn it one move at a time depending on what problems you run into like Sajam showed when he scrolled past every move Dizzy had to find specifically the one move he was having trouble with. I promise you no one starts a new FG by going to dustloop, picking their character, and just looking at the list of numbers until they remember them all. Understanding how FGs are played at their core is miles more important than learning any frame data.
No one really does unless they're a super nerd and love the game that much. Just learn what moves are unsafe/safe for both you and your opponents character. At most you're probably learning the frame data of 3-5 moves per character (more for a game like tekken)
There's only a single game that requires frame data for most situations and that is Tekken, but it really boils down to knowing 3 or 4 punish moves and how fast they are. Its extremely basic fundamental shit.
Hell I have thousands of hours in Marvel 3 and I dont know ANY frame data at all.
@@-ShiraZen- Yeah, in Marvel the frame data is "idfk, just pushblock that shit"
It's no different than learning a language. You learn what you absolutely need and then absorb little parts here and there, applying everything you learn on the way.
Framedata is 6th grade math. Learn it