Don't apologize for going too long. It's all interesting and important information. We can always pause and finish later if needed. Take your time and explain everything in as much detail as you need.
Brice R McConkie said: “Nonetheless, as Joseph Smith so pointedly taught, a prophet is not always a prophet, only when he is acting as such. Prophets are men and they make mistakes. Sometimes they err in doctrine. This is one of the reasons the Lord has given us the Standard Works. They become the standards and rules that govern where doctrine and philosophy are concerned. If this were not so, we would believe one thing when one man was president of the Church and another thing in the days of his successors. Truth is eternal and does not vary. Sometimes even wise and good men fall short in the accurate presentation of what is truth. Sometimes a prophet gives personal views which are not endorsed and approved by the Lord…This puts me in mind of Paul’s statement: “There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: “And all those who preach false doctrines, . . . wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!: (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.” My take is to follow Prophets in "righteousness" only. What is "righteousness?" The simple answer is to follow the "fruit of the Spirit"
I LOVE this!!! Thank you for sharing Bruce R. McConkie's words. I've never heard about that. It reminds me of the 12th article of faith. We are only subject to the law not individuals particularly if those leaders, no matter how righteous they are or how wicked they can be, if they do not or are not following the law themselves in that particular truth or principle. ..."IN obeying, honoring and sustaining the law." With emphasis on the word "IN". NOT outside the law, not unconditionally following every whim a leader, king, ruler, governor or magistrate comes up with but we are only bound to be obedient and honor those who govern and lead according to law. And obedience IN the law.
I was disfellowshipped because I said we should follow God not men. During one of my monthly meetings with my stake president, I read that Bruce R McConkie quote to my stake president and he got so mad he told me to leave his office. Many today can't comprehend that they have to think for themselves.
A prophet is only a prophet when acting as such. This is special pleading and no avenue to determine the difference. Only in hindsight then the apologetics come out. All you’ve done is muddy the waters
It seems to me that Bruce R. McConkie is not only saying that Brigham Young lost his soul and is damned, since he taught "false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things", but also that he, himself, Bruce R. McConkie, has lost his soul and is damned, since he also taught "false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things" in many instances (e.g. his first edition of "Mormon Doctrine"). Very interesting... 🤔
This was a tightrope walk, Michelle, and you did it beautifully. Thank you so much for the time, study, and deeply faithful reflection you have put into this! I have to say, I also laughed out loud at quite a few of those quotes from polygamy’s time. I no longer feel darkness and fear when I hear them-like you, the sun has come out. I would argue the fatal error here was that the leaders installing and indoctrinating polygamy failed to avail themselves of the wisdom and counsel of the women. We are the help that is meet (equal) for men. If they do not use us as such, our progress is severely hindered.
I LOVE your insights! I LOVE your comments! This was fantastic! I couldn't agree more. What a brilliant way to cut right to the heart if it. Thank you!
It’s fascinating how the virtue that Christ said he values most (Charity) is disregarded in polygamy. There’s no compassion, no gentleness, meekness and love unfeigned.
That hit differently. Imagining the church teaching and building their lives around a belief for 40 years just to get until the end and they completely change that belief.
My wife and I have been hoping you would post soon! We both worried about possible reasons you were delayed. Thank you for the time you have devoted to this topic.
If the practice of polygamy was truly from the Lord, nothing would have been able to stop it or the church from practicing it. But, Wilford Woodruff was shown the destruction that would come to the church if they didn't stop practicing polygamy. That should give us more confirmation that polygamy was the idea of men, not God. The church really struggled until they gave it up. We've been trying to overcome the false teachings and culture for the last 100 years. It's sad to see so many cling to the false traditions of their fathers.
Was Wilford Woodruff *shown* what would happen by the Lord, or did the fears of impending reality finally become too much for him? Saying that God had shown him this suggests that he was a prophet, but if he had really been a prophet, had he had an *ounce* of the Spirit, he wouldn't have committed and preached the heinous crime of polygamy for so long, if ever at all. He caved under fear and political pressure. Period.
I never worried about being led astray. Some people get worked up about the concept of being led astray. The way ive looked at the astray issue is if a certain bishop teaches to wear blue or brown to sunday meetings and his wife kids and dog are scared of him i will believe and accordingly. If a bishop in the next town teaches us towear grey or green to sunday meetings and his wife kids and dog are happy when he comes home, then i will believe and act accordingly. Or apply that to a prophet in office for 5 years verses a different prophet in office 5 yeard
I proudly reject these teachings that bubbled up from the pit of hell from 1852 through 1890. These poor people were led astray and the evolution of those teachings which we have inherited have put us in a sticky situation indeed.
@@nostoppingit7827 haha, yeah. Pretty much. Followed the pattern in Mosiah 11:1-2, Ether 10:4-5, and right after Nephi died. The Book of Mormon called it.
the bad of this is that we are commanded to remove our leaders that are preaching, teaching or pushing false doctrine. what if the entire audience at general conference opposed the sustaining of the brethren.
@@edwarddiviney5226 would be interesting, but won’t ever happen. There is safety and security in the broad road of the mainstream…. Until it falls like a house of cards.
LDS doctrine would state that scripture must be added or removed by the law of common consent found in D&C 26. I've been unable to find any record of the addition of Wilfords "president can't lead astray" quote as having been voted on. It just magically appears with a subsequent printing. On thst same note...when was the pro-monogamy section 101 removed by common consent?
Thank you for this historical discussion. My question: Does Michelle Stone discuss the question of the August 2021 First Presidency Letter stating that the Covid-vaxxes are "safe and effective" and the "ONLY way to".... ? I would like to be able to discuss this letter, but find that, welll, many people seem reluctant to even discuss it.
I haven't delved into it on this podcast, but I spoke out aggressively during 2020/2021. It was upsetting on many levels. You can message me or email if there are things you'd like to discuss about it.
The Prophet can't lead us astray because a Prophet said he can never lead you astray. Circular reasoning doesn't work. Prophets can lead you astray, so this was false doctrine by Wilford Woodruff.
It was in my own studies about polygamy and the true history behind OD1 that I finally learned that Wilford Woodruff made up the “doctrine” to save face with the saints he had just promised a year earlier that polygamy would never end. Oops.
One interpretation I didn't hear you explicitly state in the video is this: It's true that the prophet/church leaders will never lead you astray IF YOU HAVE YOUR OWN RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST. If a church leader ever teaches false doctrine or gives a troubling command, you will see through the deception because you have a strong personal understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and a strong ability to hear God through the Holy Ghost.
That's the same as saying that *no one* will lead you astray if you have a relationship with Jesus Christ. This is true, but it highlights the complete meaninglessness of Wilford Woodruff's original statement. The only One who will never lead us astray is Jesus Christ; that always has been the case, and always will be. Putting that much trust in anyone else is nothing more than idolatry.
I think a prophet is one who has a SURE testimony of Jesus Christ. A true prophet leads other people to also develop sure testimonies of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. If we are being led to increase in our faith, trust, and devotion to personal knowledge of Jesus Christ, then we are being led correctly. If we are being led to increase our faith, trust, and devotion to anything else as a salvific concept, tradition, or idol, we are allowing ourselves to be led astray.
A prophet is a messenger for God really nothing more. There is nothing distinct or special about prophets except they were chosen by God to deliver messages.
Here's my scriptural idea of what a prophet is: Rev. 19:10- the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Those that have a testimony of Jesus have the spirit of prophecy making them prophets. Share a quick experience that I had a couple of years ago. I was in an adult session of stake conference with no general authority and the Boise temple president at the time spoke, then in closing mentioned that we should all wake up, pay attention to the next speaker, the prophet of our stake who was the stake president. I was already on the path of not following in blind faith, but this really hit me. Follow the prophet means, the president, when he is acting in that capacity and by the power of the HG; my stake prophet (president), when he is acting similarly; my ward prophet (bishop), when he is acting similarly, my family prophet (father), when he is acting similarly. So, when told to follow the prophet, I ask "which one?" I choose not to follow any without asking God, unless I know the principle already true by the same Spirit, or at the very least I can discern that the principle leads me closer to Christ and my thus trying the experiment on the word it begins to enlarge my understanding (Alma 32). Blind faith in the arm of flesh? Never. Blind faith in His Spirit? Yep. BTW, Don't you dare go trashing 7 Brides for 7 Brothers! ;)
There are degrees of sin and I would put “commit adultery and convince generations for decades to come that it’s not only fine but God-sanctioned/mandated” as downright evil. I can believe a man to be a prophet who makes mistakes, errs, sins etc, but it’s a hard pill to swallow to believe in a prophet who’s actively engaged in evil no matter his “intentions.”
I personally think we use the term prophet inaccurately. I prefer to say president of the church for church leaders. I sustain them as our fully appointed leaders and the only ones who can it should let the church. I know a calling can open up lines if divine communication to help in that stewardship, but I don't believe a calling automatically makes someone a prophet (at least as defined by the scriptures.) And I don't think the lack of a calling precludes it. The examples of Lehi, Samuel the lamanite, and Abinadi should be enough to help us see a different perspective. None of them held ecclesiastical office, but they were all prophets sent by God to peach to his people.
@@MichelleBStone I see what your saying, but still, these actions would require excommunication. I think there’s kind of two forms of excommunication, there’s the formal one, where you sit and are judged by church leaders, but I also think that when you commit certain actions, you, in a way, immediately excommunicate yourself, make yourself ineligible to the spirit, or the stewardship you’ve been given.
@@Kopaka-ep7ug I think we all just need to navigate it the best we can, asking God to lead us. People may see the implications differently, but I don't think we can set aside or deny truth just because we don't like the possible implications. I don't think we need to judge people or institutions only by their worst actions. It is, of course, troubling, but it isn't everything or the only thing. Not sure if that's helpful, but that's how I'm navigating.
I love Seven Brides for Seven Brothers! Lots of stuff to think about. So much work was put into this episode. We all have the same ability to recieve revelation. I gladly listen to those in the church, they share their knowledge and inspiration, then once it's in our hands we have the ability to go to the Lord and ask for ourselves to recieve our own knowledge and inspiration. It may end up being opposite of what was said, and that is your path and your journey. Find Christ.....he will never lead you astray. 💞
I do as I feel inspired to. I used to listen consistently and fervently. It became more difficult at certain points and there have been times that I've taken some steps back, with the Lord's guidance. For example, in April 2020 I was feeling deep dread about conference, but when I prayed the Lord blessed me with complete peace and the feeling that I didn't need to be concerned. I assumed this meant I wouldn't feel triggered or upset by any messages, but instead I went into labor the morning of conference and wasn't able to listen. There have been many similar experiences. There is always at least one talk that I love and feels like a lifeline to help me hold on. I am still working my way back to being able to fully engage with general leaders. I confess it has been a struggle.
@@MichelleBStone Michelle, I think you’re awesome! Love that story about going into labor! Not sure that we agree on much about the church or the gospel. Who knows because I don’t know you personally, but I sure love your sincerity and love of Christ. Much love from Texas!
Thank you, I have really enjoyed this series of videos! I was thinking about whether the prophet can never lead us astray and the thought came to mind, well Brigham Young sure did! I think the whole polygamy thing is a rat hole that would have been better left alone.
I like that you brought up Seven Brides For Seven Brothers. I really enjoyed that movie when I saw it in the late 90s. I haven't seen it ever since then. I'll have to look it up online. Haha. By the way, this was a great video. I liked how you helped put the teachings into perspective with following God and following prophets.
I always wondered where this Follow the Prophet, he will not lead you astray "doctrine" came from, which you say is not scripturally based at all. President Woodruff said it so it must be true because he is a prophet and he said it? Is this the circuitous argument you describe?
It is strange so many people say false doctrine that when a prophet speaks that is the end of it. Benson said that before he was the prophet and President Kimbal told him he was wrong. and Had Benson apologize. the problem is Benson didn't apologize publicly he only apologized to the apostles and prophets and others that were in attendance
Dilemma! Paradox! It’s just not true that they are perfect, that all they speak is Divine, that they don’t wrestle and change to get more in tune with God.
Wow. You have done some homework. A lot of homework. Well done.thank you for sharing in such an organized fashion. I can't wait to hear more of what you are learning. Looking forward to those topics you promised to go into more depth. One interesting thought I had when you mentioned the Sabine women, the King having a 1000 wives and B.Y. and other early leaders referring to polygamy as being something that staves off prostitution. Hahaha! It's BECAUSE of polygamy that so many single men turned to whoredom. There weren't enough women for each man to have a wife of his own because the King and the plygs were hoarding the women! I remember one argument for polygamy was to keep women out of prostitution. Good grief. Well, the practice of polygamy in society certainly hurled the men into debauchery. Look at FLDS today. The kick their young men out because all their young women are married off to one man. No rhyme or reason to this lifestyle. It only causes heartache and greif just like the Lord stated in Jacob 2 AND 3 in the Book of Mormon. Not only for the women but for their children.
Also, I’m wondering if Brigham Young and other early leaders that pushed polygamy as THE goal in life and eternity will have the sins of people like Warren Jeffs on their backs. Much like the sins of our children are on our backs as parents.
@aubreegittins9271 : What makes you think that? No, I don't believe in the gross criminal activities of many wives not harlots or prostitutes, but many wives is a whoredom and whoremongers suffer the second death per Revelation 21: 8. As well as Doctrine and Covenants 63 if I remember correctly, it is in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants before Roman Numeral XX.
@@RBD582: What I'm trying to express to you is the sin is not on the "prophet", the sin of being deceived is on the individual who was deceived. Because it's everyone's duty to make sure they have a relationship with God!
If it’s possible that the prophets Can lead others astray you MUST question WHICH prophets did. The former day or the current day prophets? Which ones we’re telling the truth? If they were consistent in the past and their lives reflected that then perhaps they told the truth. If they were deceived all that time then the whole foundation you stand on is made of clay and will crumble. In Jesus’ day the very leaders of the church rejected him and John the Baptist. They made sure Jesus was crucified! That is the spirit of the church of today. Crucifying the men who legitimize Gods laws. I say the truth is the same yesterday and today and FOREVER. God is the same God who reveals things to His people wether they accept or reject them and He gives agency to all men. The house that is being built in this study Is the true house of cards. A church based on chaos by delusional prophets who often lead men to deception. It sounds to me like the great and abominable church in the last days. Who could belong to such a church but the truly lost. Oh God save us if this Church continues to confuse the masses! I believe the truth was restored for the last time never to be removed again from the earth. And it’s not difficult to sort through and you CAN believe the men who were martyrs for their faith. And that those who fight against them are true apostates. But the kind God whom we all love and serve is the Same. And he will set his house in order, starting with the saints. Starting with his house. Why did god allow the Devil and his lies to lead for half a century and finally clear up the mess?? If you can’t trust the former prophets completely you certainly can’t trust the ones who hide the truth from the people that these things were lived or who believe they might be lived again. The gospel is so simple: Just listen to the prophet and dig and dig till you are comfortable with how you interpret it and THEN you will know what you have is of God right?! Something is off here. The Christian’s have apologetics and can prove the doctrine all the way back to Christ. The Bible proves Itself! I tell you in the early days the leaders could use the principles they lived by and do the Same. They could stand on the solid foundations of truth and prove he doctrines to the world. Now days the prophets of the church are in such confusion they lead people to hide their past to deny it or to reject it. They have no grounds to stand on.
I really enjoy your videos! great job! You mentioned the work of Byron Katie? I don’t think I’m spelling that right but do you have any resources for that? I know Jordan Peterson has a pretty good website for the importance of writing but would love to have other resources as well
Thank you for watching. You spelled it perfectly. She is a bit of a self help guru who teaches practices to find joy, peace, love, etc. in any circumstances. I have benefited quite a bit from her exercises, which she calls, "The Work." She has a lot of videos on youtube, and her worksheets are available at her website, thework.com
Actually, the prophet can't lead you.Astray started with Brigham Young. You can find it in one of his talks in the journal of discourses volumes one or two
I think the idea of a man being in direct talks with God is ridiculous.Whether it is the LDS so called prophet,or the Pope,or all of those groups that follow one person who is a con artist in the name of religion.These are all JUST men.Nothing less.Northing more.
I agree with you, with one possible difference. I do believe people can be in contact with God. But I think that goes for any of us. I don't think we should ever assume that men in power have special access that isn't available to each of us.
@@MichelleBStone Exactly.I agree that if you are a religious person (I am not) you have the ability to "speak" to God in your individual way.What I will never understand are the millions of people who believe in "one" MAN in a specific religion or cult being able to do so.
I’m curious why you think people currently practicing polygamy are not consistent with Joseph smith especially in light of what the church released about 132 last week..:? I would love to hear your take on what the church just published about Joseph smith/polygamy/section 132. Maybe a future podcast episode?
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I definitely understand believing this because it was what we were taught and what I used to believe. But I would be interested to know what, other than the traditions we were raised on, makes you continue to believe it.
I read, somewhere that I can't locate right now, that the Federal Government looked at whether or not Polygamy was an actual doctrine while Joseph Smith was alive, they found that there wasn't evidence to establish it as a doctrine of the LDS Church. Since there wasn't, the Gov't started taking possession of church property, so a revelation was received, no more Polygamy!!! I have been reading many many journal entries, letters and documents that convince me that Brigham and quite a few others made very careful concerted efforts to manufacture or edit/change the actual historical records to reflect the narr.:ative they wanted. The epitome of "Secret Combinations", we are told in Mormon 8 that they exist among us, along with several other "Pollutions". v 36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.v. 37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted. v. 38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?
Yes, I think you are speaking of the temple lot case. The (IMO fraudulent) testimonies given there are still the main reason people believe Joseph was a polygamist.
Just something to give a litte understanding: MANY KINDS OF PRIESTHOOD or what men call priesthood There are surprisingly, 7 different forms the priesthood can take and they don't necessarily cross over one another or have all things common among them. Why is it important to identify these forms? The ones under God's control may not appear on the surface as changed when He removes His Spirit or permission and validation, while those totally under man'scontrol will continue to stand without God's permission or validation. The confusion and misuse of each form by men has caused the real truth of priesthood to belost. Therefore we must seek, ask, knock. The different forms of priesthood are listed below with minimal explanation to be expounded further on but in a different order for a smoother more understandable presentation. 1. Priesthood organization.. sometimes, chosen by God, but not necessarily... this only needs the consensus of the ruling leaders. This form of priesthood does not carry any power or authority of God, only authority of men. It is strictly an organizational tool. This is how those in high authority can stand up and proclaim that the Lord would remove them if they were to try and mislead the people. They know it won't happen no matter what they do, unless the other leaders choose to remove them by consensus. Originally organized by Joseph Smith, it was advocating revelation for choosing those to be called. 12 a. Every elder, priest, teacher or deacon, is to be ordained according to the gifts and callings of God unto him; and he is to be ordained by the power of the Holy Ghost which is in the one who ordains him. (the RLDS Book of Doctrine and Covenants section 17, page 151) In other words, it was meant to have men who sought and received the revelations and guidance of the Spirit, but it doesn't get a man removed from his position if he doesn't choose to be righteous or listen to the Spirit. *As stated above: Unfortunately, men in these positions by consensus of men do not necessarily have to have the other forms of priesthood in order to legitimately hold those positions. Though, regrettably they can claim all the gifts, and not have any. Only the other forms of priesthood are given on conditions of righteousness where God decides if they can have the gifts necessary or claimed. The only gifts-power and authority that might be manifested in the men or women holding these organizational form of priesthood positions, would have to come from them having one or two of the other forms of priesthood listed below. 2. Priesthood for ordinances... this is the tricky priesthood to actually nail down, as it has been shuffled under the organizational priesthood, or rather the organizational priesthood has been TAKING CREDIT FOR this kind of priesthood through names like Melchizedek and Aaron with place holdings such as elders, priests, teachers and deacons. The reason I claim that the organizational priesthood, that is the leadership of the church, is taking credit for this 'ordinance' giving priesthood is that these two priesthood forms operate on two different playing fields. Field 1:The organizational is strictly men calling men, even if they have revelation in making the choices. Only men can remove them by consensus with or without just cause. Field 2: The validation of priesthood ordinations, however are on an entirely different field. They are on the Field of God's validation and acceptance. This second field is conditioned upon righteousness. So what I am saying is the one doesn't require God's validation while the other one does. If the one that doesn't require God's validation, to stay in position, becomes wicked, they will stay in that position polluting the church. While God has removed the priesthood of that unworthy person, though not discernible or effecting that position held by that person. In other words ... God can say amen to the priesthood and authority of that man and he can stilll hold the position and essentially no one knows it. This is where apostasy takes place in the church. The organization can still be standing under persons chosen by men, while not being validated by God, and many will not recognize the apostasy because they are seeing the organization go on and prosper so they go on believing in the men.
Personal Authority leads to self worship, which is all satanism is about. You do you! Very self centered view. “Wretched man that I am” if Nephi said. We are gods and beggars. Weather it’s out of my mouth or servants the prophets it is the same, except when their not in prophet mode. You got to be a real Jedi to find the balance of this. Prophets are only good for their witness of Christ? Anything else there just trying their best because they don’t talk to God like Joseph and Moses did?
That's not at all what I'm seeing happen here. She's no more likely to revert to mainstream Christianity than Martin Luther was to reverting back to mainstream Judaism when he discovered issues in the Christian church. He hoped in his heart that the church would change, and when it didn't, he pressed forward with what he had. This situation smells a lot like that. Michelle is not doubting the Book of Mormon, she's no where near letting go of it, because she knows that she has greater light and knowledge than what mainstream Christianity has been willing to accept. When the various early bishops disagreed with the Pope's assumption of his supreme authority, they didn't give up the new testament. They simply broke out and became the Coptic Christians, and eastern orthodox, etc. They didnt kick back against the revealed truths, only against the structure that attempted to "own" the truth. These videos are not the deconstruction of Michelle's believe in Mormonism, or the Book of Mormon. Not at all. What's going on here is transformative. I only hope that the LDS church (unlike the Catholic church) recognizes the value in reforming itself rather than watching the reformers leave it behind. Something tells me if she gets "invited to leave" due to heresy, that there are many others who will probably be thrown out right behind her. (such as myself, another descendent of early Mormon polygamy who's ready to recognize it was not an inspired practice).
This group of women should have been a prophet since you clearly have more of the spirit of God, more discernment more understanding More enlightenment than all those men put together and all their wives. How FOOLISH of them to live die suffer for this law when the church could have been at peace and friends with their neighbors. You do walk a tightrope these men read the books written way before the internet and they couldn’t have known what you know they lived under scholars and original sources where we live under a much more enlightened society who would never change their past for the comfort of the ideas of today. So much energy and momentum was put into the faith and key doctrine that was so ridiculous. They could have been free like you women who post here. They are probably not even in heaven for leading so many astray all their sacrifices and living in hiding served them right. The church nowadays hardly resembles anything like these men lived -they would all be excommunicated under its rein. Clearly now God has set it in order and a much more enlightened people remain faithful to whatever is left of the church when you strip away all that they stood for then. Man imagine the consequences of believing what they believed. Good thing we live at such a time as this that we can set them in order. These men claimed to have personal revelation and were actually put into office by a God who allowed revelations such as the one that called Heber J Grant to the apostleship and defended polygamy at once in the same breath. That defended celestial marriage with polygamy and called it a means of exaltation. Of course none of the testimonies of the women who claimed to be wives of Joseph Smith were really and truly honest. Of course all of the endowments waiting for Emma to receive the practice were unnecessary!! Coulda had her blessings way earlier! Of course those who study those in the past have a way better view than those who lived in the past. We can NOW see the light these poor people who dared call themselves the saints of god will go to hell - for the lies they taught- or at least a telestial state. While those who live today who have nothing in common with them and their unnecessary sufferings will actually be the ones on the thrones. It’s so easy to see a half century of teaching and living by example and longing for normalcy but instead enduring to the end was all for naught because currently the prophets all know so much better. Clearly the keys of exaltation are in the hands of men now in a way they never could have been now that a “manifesto” was issued because revelations are far less relevant than manifestos. Perhaps or perhaps this study group is wrong and these things were given to another people and perhaps the church is no longer right. Perhaps it is possible that they were right? Perhaps if they are right the whole church has been lead astray by it’s leadership and is in such confusion now. Perhaps those who have a testimony that burns within them of the law their ancestors lived and died for is relevant?! Perhaps God made a way for it to be lived. In Isaiah there is a woman who travails and cries out to be delivered and her child is in danger of being devoured but then it’s rescued and brought to the wilderness for safe keeping. I tell you there is such a child. And those who seek shall find. I tell you these men didn’t lie and their testimony stands and they WILL stand as judges in Israel over the saints and those who have nothing in common with them will desire a different kingdom. And that is ok because there is a place for them prepared. Perhaps the church was allowed to remain as well to gather in all who we’re seeking truth to find it and perhaps there will be a setting in order. Perhaps the faithful who are prepared for the sacrifice of all things still is a possibility. Perhaps God showed men a way that you know nothing of, to keep alive a law that no one in the church wanted because it took such sacrifice and dedication to find joy that being a one talent man who hides his talent in the ground is not what they desired to be. Perhaps the ten talents these men were given allowed them to be given a kingdoms of their own: a posterity as great as the sands of the sea. Perhaps those with one talent Will actually have it taken from them as the scripture reads. Joseph Smiths whole mission was to teach man that EACH man can prepare to see God face to face as he did. And either Joseph was a deceived man and God allowed his weakness to lead the many apostles astray and that Brigham followed after his footsteps and Emma knew far better than any of them, and she went on to live with another immoral man… Or these men who proclaimed Celestial marriage to be of God were so deceived that how did Gods church stay together?! I’m incredulous as to the reasoning here. The spirit of God no longer dwells with the church members if they can believe such things as they study so deeply OR IT NEVER DID.
Yes we are to use the scriptures as a yard stick. If any member/ leader statement or opinion is contrary to scripture, we are to disregard their statement. However, this is a dual edge sword for this channel because section 132 is canonized scripture and things discussed in this channel are contrary to scripture, church leaders, and church documents. So you can disregard many of these topics discussed and are contrary to church teaching and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Here is a quote from Gospel Topics Essay: Latter-day Saints believe that the marriage of one man and one woman is the Lord’s standing law of marriage. In biblical times, the Lord commanded some to practice plural marriage-the marriage of one man and more than one woman. By revelation, the Lord commanded Joseph Smith to institute the practice of plural marriage among Church members in the early 1840s. For more than half a century, plural marriage was practiced by some Latter-day Saints under the direction of the Church President. Fyi- if you're in rebellion of the prophets old/ new and scriptures then there is no companionship with the Holy Ghost.
I hope you will watch this episode th-cam.com/video/vqpvHFEw6ZY/w-d-xo.html And I would be very open to hearing what scriptures this channel contradicts. However, the gospel topic essay you quoted actually does contradict the scriptures. I have never found any place in scripture where God commands anybody to practice plural marriage. If you have found one, please share it.
That exact polygamy statement around 33:00 is the complete opposite of what God actually states in "The Book of Mormon".
Don't apologize for going too long. It's all interesting and important information. We can always pause and finish later if needed. Take your time and explain everything in as much detail as you need.
Yes!
Agreed
You're absolutely right, following a profit is not biblical.
Hyrum Smith taught, in a proclamation issued to the church, that monogamy was the law in the church. That proclamation was largely ignored.
So many early church members were "compulsive liars", I am absolutely certain Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma were complicit.
I saw you yesterday on Midnight Mormons and loved you! I am so excited to find your channel. God bless you 🌿
Brice R McConkie said:
“Nonetheless, as Joseph Smith so pointedly taught, a prophet is not always a prophet, only when he is acting as such. Prophets are men and they make mistakes. Sometimes they err in doctrine. This is one of the reasons the Lord has given us the Standard Works. They become the standards and rules that govern where doctrine and philosophy are concerned. If this were not so, we would believe one thing when one man was president of the Church and another thing in the days of his successors. Truth is eternal and does not vary. Sometimes even wise and good men fall short in the accurate presentation of what is truth. Sometimes a prophet gives personal views which are not endorsed and approved by the Lord…This puts me in mind of Paul’s statement: “There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: “And all those who preach false doctrines, . . . wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!: (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.”
My take is to follow Prophets in "righteousness" only. What is "righteousness?" The simple answer is to follow the "fruit of the Spirit"
I LOVE this!!! Thank you for sharing Bruce R. McConkie's words. I've never heard about that. It reminds me of the 12th article of faith. We are only subject to the law not individuals particularly if those leaders, no matter how righteous they are or how wicked they can be, if they do not or are not following the law themselves in that particular truth or principle. ..."IN obeying, honoring and sustaining the law." With emphasis on the word "IN". NOT outside the law, not unconditionally following every whim a leader, king, ruler, governor or magistrate comes up with but we are only bound to be obedient and honor those who govern and lead according to law. And obedience IN the law.
I was disfellowshipped because I said we should follow God not men. During one of my monthly meetings with my stake president, I read that Bruce R McConkie quote to my stake president and he got so mad he told me to leave his office.
Many today can't comprehend that they have to think for themselves.
A prophet is only a prophet when acting as such. This is special pleading and no avenue to determine the difference. Only in hindsight then the apologetics come out. All you’ve done is muddy the waters
It seems to me that Bruce R. McConkie is not only saying that Brigham Young lost his soul and is damned, since he taught "false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things", but also that he, himself, Bruce R. McConkie, has lost his soul and is damned, since he also taught "false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things" in many instances (e.g. his first edition of "Mormon Doctrine").
Very interesting... 🤔
Shifting goalposts from habitual liars.
This was a tightrope walk, Michelle, and you did it beautifully. Thank you so much for the time, study, and deeply faithful reflection you have put into this!
I have to say, I also laughed out loud at quite a few of those quotes from polygamy’s time. I no longer feel darkness and fear when I hear them-like you, the sun has come out. I would argue the fatal error here was that the leaders installing and indoctrinating polygamy failed to avail themselves of the wisdom and counsel of the women. We are the help that is meet (equal) for men. If they do not use us as such, our progress is severely hindered.
I LOVE your insights! I LOVE your comments! This was fantastic! I couldn't agree more. What a brilliant way to cut right to the heart if it. Thank you!
Fantastic episode!
Brigham was such a liar. Wow!
They ALL are. They are still lying to this day.
It’s fascinating how the virtue that Christ said he values most (Charity) is disregarded in polygamy. There’s no compassion, no gentleness, meekness and love unfeigned.
@1:07:32 Which talks from Oaks and Cook are you referencing here? Thank you!
That hit differently. Imagining the church teaching and building their lives around a belief for 40 years just to get until the end and they completely change that belief.
That is the Cognitive Dissonance Michelle is currently feeling with the Gospel Topics Essay.
My wife and I have been hoping you would post soon! We both worried about possible reasons you were delayed. Thank you for the time you have devoted to this topic.
Thank you. I'm sorry for the delay. I so appreciate your support and concern.
If the practice of polygamy was truly from the Lord, nothing would have been able to stop it or the church from practicing it.
But, Wilford Woodruff was shown the destruction that would come to the church if they didn't stop practicing polygamy.
That should give us more confirmation that polygamy was the idea of men, not God. The church really struggled until they gave it up.
We've been trying to overcome the false teachings and culture for the last 100 years. It's sad to see so many cling to the false traditions of their fathers.
Was Wilford Woodruff *shown* what would happen by the Lord, or did the fears of impending reality finally become too much for him? Saying that God had shown him this suggests that he was a prophet, but if he had really been a prophet, had he had an *ounce* of the Spirit, he wouldn't have committed and preached the heinous crime of polygamy for so long, if ever at all.
He caved under fear and political pressure. Period.
Such great content, yet again!! Thank you, Michelle, for your time and effort on this subject. I’ve learned so much from you.
I never worried about being led astray. Some people get worked up about the concept of being led astray.
The way ive looked at the astray issue is if a certain bishop teaches to wear blue or brown to sunday meetings and his wife kids and dog are scared of him i will believe and accordingly. If a bishop in the next town teaches us towear grey or green to sunday meetings and his wife kids and dog are happy when he comes home, then i will believe and act accordingly. Or apply that to a prophet in office for 5 years verses a different prophet in office 5 yeard
Love this video. Excellent job!
I proudly reject these teachings that bubbled up from the pit of hell from 1852 through 1890. These poor people were led astray and the evolution of those teachings which we have inherited have put us in a sticky situation indeed.
Aug. 1844-1890
@@nostoppingit7827 haha, yeah. Pretty much. Followed the pattern in Mosiah 11:1-2, Ether 10:4-5, and right after Nephi died.
The Book of Mormon called it.
the bad of this is that we are commanded to remove our leaders that are preaching, teaching or pushing false doctrine. what if the entire audience at general conference opposed the sustaining of the brethren.
@@edwarddiviney5226 would be interesting, but won’t ever happen. There is safety and security in the broad road of the mainstream…. Until it falls like a house of cards.
Are you still a Brighamite? If so, why? DnC 132 is STILL Doctrine.
LDS doctrine would state that scripture must be added or removed by the law of common consent found in D&C 26. I've been unable to find any record of the addition of Wilfords "president can't lead astray" quote as having been voted on. It just magically appears with a subsequent printing.
On thst same note...when was the pro-monogamy section 101 removed by common consent?
You are exactly right. Fantastic points. Thank you.
Lectures on Faith were added by common consent and then removed by committee. Common consent has been perverted by modern church.
They NEVER followed the rules. Just look at how Joseph practiced his own "Doctrine"
Thank you for this historical discussion. My question: Does Michelle Stone discuss the question of the August 2021 First Presidency Letter stating that the Covid-vaxxes are "safe and effective" and the "ONLY way to".... ? I would like to be able to discuss this letter, but find that, welll, many people seem reluctant to even discuss it.
I haven't delved into it on this podcast, but I spoke out aggressively during 2020/2021. It was upsetting on many levels. You can message me or email if there are things you'd like to discuss about it.
Watcher Palmer channel talked a lot about it in his vids in '20-'22
“We want a king!”
It still lurks in us…
Great episode. Thank you.
The Prophet can't lead us astray because a Prophet said he can never lead you astray. Circular reasoning doesn't work. Prophets can lead you astray, so this was false doctrine by Wilford Woodruff.
It was in my own studies about polygamy and the true history behind OD1 that I finally learned that Wilford Woodruff made up the “doctrine” to save face with the saints he had just promised a year earlier that polygamy would never end. Oops.
One interpretation I didn't hear you explicitly state in the video is this: It's true that the prophet/church leaders will never lead you astray IF YOU HAVE YOUR OWN RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST. If a church leader ever teaches false doctrine or gives a troubling command, you will see through the deception because you have a strong personal understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and a strong ability to hear God through the Holy Ghost.
That's the same as saying that *no one* will lead you astray if you have a relationship with Jesus Christ. This is true, but it highlights the complete meaninglessness of Wilford Woodruff's original statement.
The only One who will never lead us astray is Jesus Christ; that always has been the case, and always will be. Putting that much trust in anyone else is nothing more than idolatry.
I think a prophet is one who has a SURE testimony of Jesus Christ. A true prophet leads other people to also develop sure testimonies of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. If we are being led to increase in our faith, trust, and devotion to personal knowledge of Jesus Christ, then we are being led correctly. If we are being led to increase our faith, trust, and devotion to anything else as a salvific concept, tradition, or idol, we are allowing ourselves to be led astray.
Love this!
A prophet is a messenger for God really nothing more. There is nothing distinct or special about prophets except they were chosen by God to deliver messages.
After this conference what are your thoughts about President Nelsons talk on keys?
Here's my scriptural idea of what a prophet is: Rev. 19:10- the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Those that have a testimony of Jesus have the spirit of prophecy making them prophets. Share a quick experience that I had a couple of years ago. I was in an adult session of stake conference with no general authority and the Boise temple president at the time spoke, then in closing mentioned that we should all wake up, pay attention to the next speaker, the prophet of our stake who was the stake president. I was already on the path of not following in blind faith, but this really hit me. Follow the prophet means, the president, when he is acting in that capacity and by the power of the HG; my stake prophet (president), when he is acting similarly; my ward prophet (bishop), when he is acting similarly, my family prophet (father), when he is acting similarly. So, when told to follow the prophet, I ask "which one?" I choose not to follow any without asking God, unless I know the principle already true by the same Spirit, or at the very least I can discern that the principle leads me closer to Christ and my thus trying the experiment on the word it begins to enlarge my understanding (Alma 32). Blind faith in the arm of flesh? Never. Blind faith in His Spirit? Yep. BTW, Don't you dare go trashing 7 Brides for 7 Brothers! ;)
There are degrees of sin and I would put “commit adultery and convince generations for decades to come that it’s not only fine but God-sanctioned/mandated” as downright evil.
I can believe a man to be a prophet who makes mistakes, errs, sins etc, but it’s a hard pill to swallow to believe in a prophet who’s actively engaged in evil no matter his “intentions.”
I personally think we use the term prophet inaccurately. I prefer to say president of the church for church leaders. I sustain them as our fully appointed leaders and the only ones who can it should let the church. I know a calling can open up lines if divine communication to help in that stewardship, but I don't believe a calling automatically makes someone a prophet (at least as defined by the scriptures.) And I don't think the lack of a calling precludes it. The examples of Lehi, Samuel the lamanite, and Abinadi should be enough to help us see a different perspective. None of them held ecclesiastical office, but they were all prophets sent by God to peach to his people.
@@MichelleBStone I see what your saying, but still, these actions would require excommunication. I think there’s kind of two forms of excommunication, there’s the formal one, where you sit and are judged by church leaders, but I also think that when you commit certain actions, you, in a way, immediately excommunicate yourself, make yourself ineligible to the spirit, or the stewardship you’ve been given.
@@Kopaka-ep7ug I think we all just need to navigate it the best we can, asking God to lead us. People may see the implications differently, but I don't think we can set aside or deny truth just because we don't like the possible implications. I don't think we need to judge people or institutions only by their worst actions. It is, of course, troubling, but it isn't everything or the only thing. Not sure if that's helpful, but that's how I'm navigating.
The episode called "Why I Stay" may be helpful to explain more. ❤️
I love Seven Brides for Seven Brothers! Lots of stuff to think about. So much work was put into this episode. We all have the same ability to recieve revelation. I gladly listen to those in the church, they share their knowledge and inspiration, then once it's in our hands we have the ability to go to the Lord and ask for ourselves to recieve our own knowledge and inspiration. It may end up being opposite of what was said, and that is your path and your journey. Find Christ.....he will never lead you astray. 💞
Thank you Michelle!
Are they lying to you in THEIR Gospel Topics Essay on the subject?
Hi Michelle, do you listen or read conference talks ?
I do as I feel inspired to. I used to listen consistently and fervently. It became more difficult at certain points and there have been times that I've taken some steps back, with the Lord's guidance. For example, in April 2020 I was feeling deep dread about conference, but when I prayed the Lord blessed me with complete peace and the feeling that I didn't need to be concerned. I assumed this meant I wouldn't feel triggered or upset by any messages, but instead I went into labor the morning of conference and wasn't able to listen. There have been many similar experiences. There is always at least one talk that I love and feels like a lifeline to help me hold on. I am still working my way back to being able to fully engage with general leaders. I confess it has been a struggle.
@@MichelleBStone Michelle, I think you’re awesome! Love that story about going into labor! Not sure that we agree on much about the church or the gospel. Who knows because I don’t know you personally, but I sure love your sincerity and love of Christ. Much love from Texas!
Thank you, I have really enjoyed this series of videos! I was thinking about whether the prophet can never lead us astray and the thought came to mind, well Brigham Young sure did! I think the whole polygamy thing is a rat hole that would have been better left alone.
Would love your thoughts on the youtube channel "the ii" (two)
I hadn't heard of it until now. It looks like an interesting resource.
I like that you brought up Seven Brides For Seven Brothers. I really enjoyed that movie when I saw it in the late 90s. I haven't seen it ever since then. I'll have to look it up online. Haha. By the way, this was a great video. I liked how you helped put the teachings into perspective with following God and following prophets.
I always wondered where this Follow the Prophet, he will not lead you astray "doctrine" came from, which you say is not scripturally based at all. President Woodruff said it so it must be true because he is a prophet and he said it? Is this the circuitous argument you describe?
Exactly 💯
It is strange so many people say false doctrine that when a prophet speaks that is the end of it. Benson said that before he was the prophet and President Kimbal told him he was wrong. and Had Benson apologize. the problem is Benson didn't apologize publicly he only apologized to the apostles and prophets and others that were in attendance
Dilemma! Paradox! It’s just not true that they are perfect, that all they speak is Divine, that they don’t wrestle and change to get more in tune with God.
Wow. You have done some homework. A lot of homework. Well done.thank you for sharing in such an organized fashion. I can't wait to hear more of what you are learning. Looking forward to those topics you promised to go into more depth.
One interesting thought I had when you mentioned the Sabine women, the King having a 1000 wives and B.Y. and other early leaders referring to polygamy as being something that staves off prostitution. Hahaha! It's BECAUSE of polygamy that so many single men turned to whoredom. There weren't enough women for each man to have a wife of his own because the King and the plygs were hoarding the women! I remember one argument for polygamy was to keep women out of prostitution. Good grief. Well, the practice of polygamy in society certainly hurled the men into debauchery. Look at FLDS today. The kick their young men out because all their young women are married off to one man. No rhyme or reason to this lifestyle. It only causes heartache and greif just like the Lord stated in Jacob 2 AND 3 in the Book of Mormon. Not only for the women but for their children.
Amazing insights! You are exactly right!
Perfectly stated!
Also, I’m wondering if Brigham Young and other early leaders that pushed polygamy as THE goal in life and eternity will have the sins of people like Warren Jeffs on their backs. Much like the sins of our children are on our backs as parents.
Nope, it's everyone's duty to seek God, if they would choose to follow flesh, they all suffer the consequences.
@@Wh3nth3wick3drul3 and if you believe polygamy came from God, you ARE following the arm of flesh, not God.
@aubreegittins9271 : What makes you think that? No, I don't believe in the gross criminal activities of many wives not harlots or prostitutes, but many wives is a whoredom and whoremongers suffer the second death per Revelation 21: 8. As well as Doctrine and Covenants 63 if I remember correctly, it is in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants before Roman Numeral XX.
@@RBD582: What I'm trying to express to you is the sin is not on the "prophet", the sin of being deceived is on the individual who was deceived. Because it's everyone's duty to make sure they have a relationship with God!
The Mormon church is so concerned about its many prophets and many documents whereas Christianity simply focuses on Jesus and THE Bible.
"Christianity's" focus on the Bible is just as bad as Mormonism's focus on a living prophet: both are forms of idolatry.
If it’s possible that the prophets Can lead others astray you MUST question WHICH prophets did.
The former day or the current day prophets? Which ones we’re telling the truth?
If they were consistent in the past and their lives reflected that then perhaps they told the truth.
If they were deceived all that time then the whole foundation you stand on is made of clay and will crumble.
In Jesus’ day the very leaders of the church rejected him and John the Baptist.
They made sure Jesus was crucified! That is the spirit of the church of today.
Crucifying the men who legitimize Gods laws.
I say the truth is the same yesterday and today and FOREVER.
God is the same God who reveals things to His people wether they accept or reject them and He gives agency to all men.
The house that is being built in this study Is the true house of cards.
A church based on chaos by delusional prophets who often lead men to deception. It sounds to me like the great and abominable church in the last days.
Who could belong to such a church but the truly lost.
Oh God save us if this Church continues to confuse the masses!
I believe the truth was restored for the last time never to be removed again from the earth.
And it’s not difficult to sort through and you CAN believe the men who were martyrs for their faith.
And that those who fight against them are true apostates.
But the kind God whom we all love and serve is the Same. And he will set his house in order, starting with the saints. Starting with his house.
Why did god allow the Devil and his lies to lead for half a century and finally clear up the mess??
If you can’t trust the former prophets completely you certainly can’t trust the ones who hide the truth from the people that these things were lived or who believe they might be lived again.
The gospel is so simple:
Just listen to the prophet and dig and dig till you are comfortable with how you interpret it and THEN you will know what you have is of God right?!
Something is off here.
The Christian’s have apologetics and can prove the doctrine all the way back to Christ.
The Bible proves Itself!
I tell you in the early days the leaders could use the principles they lived by and do the Same. They could stand on the solid foundations of truth and prove he doctrines to the world.
Now days the prophets of the church are in such confusion they lead people to hide their past to deny it or to reject it. They have no grounds to stand on.
I really enjoy your videos! great job! You mentioned the work of Byron Katie? I don’t think I’m spelling that right but do you have any resources for that? I know Jordan Peterson has a pretty good website for the importance of writing but would love to have other resources as well
Thank you for watching. You spelled it perfectly. She is a bit of a self help guru who teaches practices to find joy, peace, love, etc. in any circumstances. I have benefited quite a bit from her exercises, which she calls, "The Work." She has a lot of videos on youtube, and her worksheets are available at her website, thework.com
Actually, the prophet can't lead you.Astray started with Brigham Young. You can find it in one of his talks in the journal of discourses volumes one or two
I think the idea of a man being in direct talks with God is ridiculous.Whether it is the LDS so called prophet,or the Pope,or all of those groups that follow one person who is a con artist in the name of religion.These are all JUST men.Nothing less.Northing more.
I agree with you, with one possible difference. I do believe people can be in contact with God. But I think that goes for any of us. I don't think we should ever assume that men in power have special access that isn't available to each of us.
@@MichelleBStone Exactly.I agree that if you are a religious person (I am not) you have the ability to "speak" to God in your individual way.What I will never understand are the millions of people who believe in "one" MAN in a specific religion or cult being able to do so.
I’m curious why you think people currently practicing polygamy are not consistent with Joseph smith especially in light of what the church released about 132 last week..:?
I would love to hear your take on what the church just published about Joseph smith/polygamy/section 132. Maybe a future podcast episode?
Where is it located?
Can you share what was released by the church?
I've been trying to find where this is located, Mari! Can you link to it?
I'd like to know where to find it as well.
@@jackiechoate6163 depending on how your phone or computer pulls it up you may need to click on the “grey” area off to the right to see it.
Section 132 is not from God.
I do believe that polygamy was truly what the Lord commanded the church to do and it was also by the Lord's command that it ended.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I definitely understand believing this because it was what we were taught and what I used to believe. But I would be interested to know what, other than the traditions we were raised on, makes you continue to believe it.
Did you even listen to her? She is giving you proof from that day of what was going on. Listen to some of her other videos. Read Jacob 2 and 3.
I read, somewhere that I can't locate right now, that the Federal Government looked at whether or not Polygamy was an actual doctrine while Joseph Smith was alive, they found that there wasn't evidence to establish it as a doctrine of the LDS Church. Since there wasn't, the Gov't started taking possession of church property, so a revelation was received, no more Polygamy!!!
I have been reading many many journal entries, letters and documents that convince me that Brigham and quite a few others made very careful concerted efforts to manufacture or edit/change the actual historical records to reflect the narr.:ative they wanted. The epitome of "Secret Combinations", we are told in Mormon 8 that they exist among us, along with several other "Pollutions". v 36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.v. 37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted. v. 38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?
Yes, I think you are speaking of the temple lot case. The (IMO fraudulent) testimonies given there are still the main reason people believe Joseph was a polygamist.
Just something to give a litte understanding:
MANY KINDS OF PRIESTHOOD
or what men call priesthood
There are surprisingly, 7 different forms the priesthood can take and they don't necessarily cross over one another or have all things common among them. Why is it important to identify these forms? The ones under God's control may not appear on the surface as changed when He removes His Spirit or permission and validation, while those totally under man'scontrol will continue to stand without God's permission or validation.
The confusion and misuse of each form by men has caused the real truth of priesthood to belost. Therefore we must seek, ask, knock.
The different forms of priesthood are listed below with minimal explanation to be expounded further on but in a different order for a smoother more understandable presentation.
1. Priesthood organization.. sometimes, chosen by God, but not necessarily... this only needs the consensus of the ruling leaders. This form of priesthood does not carry any power or authority of God, only authority of men. It is strictly an organizational tool.
This is how those in high authority can stand up and proclaim that the Lord would remove them if they were to try and mislead the people. They know it won't happen no matter what they do, unless the other leaders choose to remove them by consensus.
Originally organized by Joseph Smith, it was advocating revelation for choosing those to be called.
12 a. Every elder, priest, teacher or deacon, is to be ordained according to the gifts
and callings of God unto him; and he is to be ordained by the power of the Holy
Ghost which is in the one who ordains him. (the RLDS Book of Doctrine and
Covenants section 17, page 151)
In other words, it was meant to have men who sought and received the revelations and guidance of the Spirit, but it doesn't get a man removed from his position if he doesn't choose to be righteous or listen to the Spirit.
*As stated above: Unfortunately, men in these positions by consensus of men do not necessarily have to have the other forms of priesthood in order to legitimately hold those positions. Though, regrettably they can claim all the gifts, and not have any.
Only the other forms of priesthood are given on conditions of righteousness where God decides if they can have the gifts necessary or claimed. The only gifts-power and authority that might be manifested in the men or women holding these organizational form of priesthood positions, would have to come from them having one or two of the other forms of priesthood listed below.
2. Priesthood for ordinances... this is the tricky priesthood to actually nail down, as it
has been shuffled under the organizational priesthood, or rather the organizational
priesthood has been TAKING CREDIT FOR this kind of priesthood through names like Melchizedek and Aaron with place holdings such as elders, priests, teachers and deacons.
The reason I claim that the organizational priesthood, that is the leadership of the church, is taking credit for this 'ordinance' giving priesthood is that these two priesthood forms operate on two different playing fields.
Field 1:The organizational is strictly men calling men, even if they have revelation in making the choices. Only men can remove them by consensus with or without just cause.
Field 2: The validation of priesthood ordinations, however are on an entirely different field.
They are on the Field of God's validation and acceptance. This second field is conditioned upon righteousness.
So what I am saying is the one doesn't require God's validation while the other one does. If the one that doesn't require God's validation, to stay in position, becomes wicked, they will stay in that position polluting the church. While God has removed the priesthood of that unworthy person, though not discernible or effecting that position held by that person.
In other words ... God can say amen to the priesthood and authority of that man and he can stilll hold the position and essentially no one knows it.
This is where apostasy takes place in the church. The organization can still be standing under persons chosen by men, while not being validated by God, and many will not recognize the apostasy because they are seeing the organization go on and prosper so they go on believing in the men.
Probably marriage between msn and woman!! That would be a comparison!
Then that changes!!!
And gay marriage is accepted in temple!
Why do you say that when the prophet and his wife say we can allways trust the prophet to be right?
Why do you say different?
Circular reasoning as discussed in the beginning of this video.
...Did you watch the video?
Personal Authority leads to self worship, which is all satanism is about. You do you! Very self centered view. “Wretched man that I am” if Nephi said. We are gods and beggars. Weather it’s out of my mouth or servants the prophets it is the same, except when their not in prophet mode. You got to be a real Jedi to find the balance of this. Prophets are only good for their witness of Christ? Anything else there just trying their best because they don’t talk to God like Joseph and Moses did?
LOL you're going to LOVE episode 41 😉
This women seems very close to escaping from Mormonism to Christianity!
That's not at all what I'm seeing happen here.
She's no more likely to revert to mainstream Christianity than Martin Luther was to reverting back to mainstream Judaism when he discovered issues in the Christian church. He hoped in his heart that the church would change, and when it didn't, he pressed forward with what he had.
This situation smells a lot like that.
Michelle is not doubting the Book of Mormon, she's no where near letting go of it, because she knows that she has greater light and knowledge than what mainstream Christianity has been willing to accept.
When the various early bishops disagreed with the Pope's assumption of his supreme authority, they didn't give up the new testament. They simply broke out and became the Coptic Christians, and eastern orthodox, etc. They didnt kick back against the revealed truths, only against the structure that attempted to "own" the truth.
These videos are not the deconstruction of Michelle's believe in Mormonism, or the Book of Mormon. Not at all. What's going on here is transformative.
I only hope that the LDS church (unlike the Catholic church) recognizes the value in reforming itself rather than watching the reformers leave it behind.
Something tells me if she gets "invited to leave" due to heresy, that there are many others who will probably be thrown out right behind her. (such as myself, another descendent of early Mormon polygamy who's ready to recognize it was not an inspired practice).
@@brentlarsen4414 Beautifully said!!
This group of women should have been a prophet since you clearly have more of the spirit of God, more discernment more understanding
More enlightenment than all those men put together and all their wives.
How FOOLISH of them to live die suffer for this law when the church could have been at peace and friends with their neighbors.
You do walk a tightrope these men read the books written way before the internet and they couldn’t have known what you know they lived under scholars and original sources where we live under a much more enlightened society who would never change their past for the comfort of the ideas of today.
So much energy and momentum was put into the faith and key doctrine that was so ridiculous. They could have been free like you women who post here.
They are probably not even in heaven for leading so many astray all their sacrifices and living in hiding served them right.
The church nowadays hardly resembles anything like these men lived -they would all be excommunicated under its rein.
Clearly now God has set it in order and a much more enlightened people remain faithful to whatever is left of the church when you strip away all that they stood for then.
Man imagine the consequences of believing what they believed. Good thing we live at such a time as this that we can set them in order.
These men claimed to have personal revelation and were actually put into office by a God who allowed revelations such as the one that called Heber J Grant to the apostleship and defended polygamy at once in the same breath.
That defended celestial marriage with polygamy and called it a means of exaltation.
Of course none of the testimonies of the women who claimed to be wives of Joseph Smith were really and truly honest.
Of course all of the endowments waiting for Emma to receive the practice were unnecessary!! Coulda had her blessings way earlier!
Of course those who study those in the past have a way better view than those who lived in the past.
We can NOW see the light these poor people who dared call themselves the saints of god will go to hell -
for the lies they taught- or at least a telestial state. While those who live today who have nothing in common with them and their unnecessary sufferings will actually be the ones on the thrones.
It’s so easy to see a half century of teaching and living by example and longing for normalcy but instead enduring to the end was all for naught because currently the prophets all know so much better.
Clearly the keys of exaltation are in the hands of men now in a way they never could have been now that a “manifesto” was issued because revelations are far less relevant than manifestos.
Perhaps or perhaps this study group is wrong and these things were given to another people and perhaps the church is no longer right. Perhaps it is possible that they were right?
Perhaps if they are right the whole church has been lead astray by it’s leadership and is in such confusion now. Perhaps those who have a testimony that burns within them of the law their ancestors lived and died for is relevant?! Perhaps God made a way for it to be lived.
In Isaiah there is a woman who travails and cries out to be delivered and her child is in danger of being devoured but then it’s rescued and brought to the wilderness for safe keeping.
I tell you there is such a child. And those who seek shall find.
I tell you these men didn’t lie and their testimony stands and they WILL stand as judges in Israel over the saints and those who have nothing in common with them will desire a different kingdom. And that is ok because there is a place for them prepared.
Perhaps the church was allowed to remain as well to gather in all who we’re seeking truth to find it and perhaps there will be a setting in order. Perhaps the faithful who are prepared for the sacrifice of all things still is a possibility.
Perhaps God showed men a way that you know nothing of, to keep alive a law that no one in the church wanted because it took such sacrifice and dedication to find joy that being a one talent man who hides his talent in the ground is not what they desired to be.
Perhaps the ten talents these men were given allowed them to be given a kingdoms of their own: a posterity as great as the sands of the sea.
Perhaps those with one talent Will actually have it taken from them as the scripture reads.
Joseph Smiths whole mission was to teach man that EACH man can prepare to see God face to face as he did.
And either Joseph was a deceived man and God allowed his weakness to lead the many apostles astray and that Brigham followed after his footsteps and Emma knew far better than any of them, and she went on to live with another immoral man…
Or these men who proclaimed Celestial marriage to be of God were so deceived that how did Gods church stay together?!
I’m incredulous as to the reasoning here.
The spirit of God no longer dwells with the church members if they can believe such things as they study so deeply OR
IT NEVER DID.
Emma was correct, technically the church didn't stay together. That's why there are the FLDS and the other faction of Emma's son.
Excellent!!
Yes we are to use the scriptures as a yard stick. If any member/ leader statement or opinion is contrary to scripture, we are to disregard their statement. However, this is a dual edge sword for this channel because section 132 is canonized scripture and things discussed in this channel are contrary to scripture, church leaders, and church documents. So you can disregard many of these topics discussed and are contrary to church teaching and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Here is a quote from Gospel Topics Essay:
Latter-day Saints believe that the marriage of one man and one woman is the Lord’s standing law of marriage. In biblical times, the Lord commanded some to practice plural marriage-the marriage of one man and more than one woman. By revelation, the Lord commanded Joseph Smith to institute the practice of plural marriage among Church members in the early 1840s. For more than half a century, plural marriage was practiced by some Latter-day Saints under the direction of the Church President.
Fyi- if you're in rebellion of the prophets old/ new and scriptures then there is no companionship with the Holy Ghost.
I hope you will watch this episode
th-cam.com/video/vqpvHFEw6ZY/w-d-xo.html
And I would be very open to hearing what scriptures this channel contradicts. However, the gospel topic essay you quoted actually does contradict the scriptures. I have never found any place in scripture where God commands anybody to practice plural marriage. If you have found one, please share it.