The pole pitch of the stator winding will determine the number and spacing of the permanent magnet poles on the rotor. Designing your rotor while ignoring this fact could result in opposing voltages being generated at different points of the same winding thus cancelling out each other, resulting in a low cumulative output.
Thank you for commenting. The stator has 6 coils arranged in a ring so I use 6 pairs of magnets arranged to cover each half of each coil. 6 pairs of magnets. The second set of magnets align with the second set of six coils.. There is a thrid set of coils but I cannot fit anymore magnets.
The alternator has too little number of windings. The more turns of wire= higher voltage. I was plagued by this same problem a while back but found out that a lot of windings along with 4 or 6 magnets worked perfectly.
Thank you for commenting. I have used more windings in the past but it did not help. More windings meant thinner wire so I got more voltage but less amps. How did you use so few magnets. I thought you needed 2 magnets for each winding to give a N and S on each side of the winding. My alternator has 6 pole windings so I need minimum 12 magnets (N-S) I think.
@@DaftOldMan Oh I forgot to mention that I rewound the whole stator. I rewound it just like you would an inrunner brushless motor (Look up how the windings in those brushless drills look like). I also found out that they usually 4-6 magnets so I stopped questioning and went with that since I didn't have any power tools to conduct trial and error. It makes around 73 volts at 1000rpm and also stalls immediately when you short the output. I'll use it in a wind turbine when I get out of this apartment.
I think you should try 10 magnets 4 north at 12-6-3-9 o'clock and the rest south.. that's how it works out in my head. That's how I would do it. But that's just my opinion 😊
Maybe the magnets need to have the same field strength as when the rotor is connected to the battery.checked the amperage draw on battery by rotor says ammeter says 4amps.
to me the idea seems very good but I would have fixed the magnets in a different way being radial to the rotor, the centrifugal force will inevitably tend to detach them. I'm sure that in a short enough time glued in this way they come off
Trying something out very similar to you. I'm waiting on some n52 arc magnets to arrive, hopefully the results will be a bit more promising. Test will be at 4k rpm.
That is great news. The more we can find out the better. I want my alternator to run at about 1000 rpm but that only has to be the drive speed, so I could drive with 1000 rpm and gear alternator to 4000 rpm,. Matbe.
@@DaftOldMan my only worry ahead of getting it started is keeping the magnets stuck to the rotor at 4000rpm? Going to use some epoxy and perhaps encase it in some polyester resin. If you was going to do it again, is there any thing else you would recommend?
@@MansHobbsInterests You may be correct but I am only spinning with a cordless drill so no magnets harmed in my tests so far. My biggest problem has been getting the magnets off of the rotor when I want to change their position. I learned early on that heat softens the glue but destroys the magnets. Oops!
i plead ignorance; do we care if the alternator has diodes? if so, why? don't we want to generate a pulse wave form (vs square or sinusoidal)? Can you put the output on an oscilloscope?
I think you only have 3V magnets, have a look on Ebay for some 12V ones. :-) is this why we don't see many Permanent Mannet Alternstor's on cars, does it mean that a permanent magnet will never match that of a coil?
@@DaftOldMan I think it will not perform under 3000 rpm, as the pullies on engines always make the alternator spin about 3 times faster than engine rpm, If the engine can rev to 6000 rpm, the alternator will be at 18000 rpm. lets hope the magnets don’t fly away. I think aiming for more than 6000 rpm should work. Don’t forget that the original rotor varies in field strengh folowing the rpm, magnets stay the same strengh. Cheers.
Hello, i think you do a basic mistake in your measuring. You set your DMM on AC, that means, you only measure the AC-Part of the outlet power. If you set it do DC, you will get a much higer voltage. Keep in mind, when you use a diode in the circuit, you only get the DC-Output. And one more thing: The alternator has 3 output-circuits, the internal connection will "alternate" each circuit to one strong output. To see, if the alternator works in this setup with the neodyms, you have to measure between the Housing and the thick M8 Screw in DC-Mode. Shure you will get much more than 3 Volts. And then you should rotate on 1000 rpm.or more. Basics on the car-alternator: The regulation in a car-alternator only occour on the output-voltage, not the current. The regulator of tose alternators will let some more or less current to the rotor-windings over the carbons and the slip-rings. Indeed you don't need both, the rotor-windings and the sliprings anymore, when you make a permanent magnetic field on the rotor. Just look at a regulator, it will be allways a specification to 14,x V and never a specification about the current. These 14,x Volts is the voltage, on wich the regulator stops all current to the sliprings. If the voltage goes down in the harness including the voltage of the battery, it will start working again, by let some current go through the carbons to the slip rings. The output current depends on the windings of the stator and the resilience of the diodes. And the diodes in a car-alternator are always customized to the need of the car. An old Mercedes 200 do not need a high current output, though the alternator has to load a small battery and less equipment (lights, Ignition andsoon), a 200D must have a much stronger alternator, cause it must load a 88Ah-Battery. In actual cars you will find always a alternator over 80 Amps, cause engine and automatic gearbox-management, all the gimmicks like abs and other assistance-systems, all actuators like electric steering, climate control needs a secured power supply and in most cars the battery is very small. Normally a car-alternator is set to a transmission-ratio of 1:2, means on rotation of the crancshaft means 2 rotations of the alternator. That's, by the way, the trick to get a electronic tachometer in a diesel automobile. They only use a separate winding, wich put out a single AC-signal on Clamp "W" to wich the tachometer is connected. So if you get a 1000 rpm on the toachometer in you dashboard, it means that the alternator rotates with 2000 rpm. You had to measure one pair of the outlet-wirings to another pair without any diodes between. So unmount the diode-plate and keep the rotation up to 1000 ore more rpm. Buy measure-wirings to your dmm with croc-clamps, the output-current or voltage may be higher than your heart will tolerate. Allways keep your hands off the wirings !!
Thank you for a very interesting reply. Unfortunately my DMM is set correctly fot DC Amps not AC. If you watch my other videos you will see that I have tried various different ways to arrange the wires and test. Comments like yours are very helpful.
The magnets must not be in it right ; it should put out more volts. They have to be spaced right, and alternating polarity. This old Honda PMA I have even puts out 13.3 and it's from the 70's. I know the magnets aren't that great in it...with the ones you have, you should get 15v. or something. The one I have has six magnets and six poles...do you have the same number or twice as many of magnets as poles>? The magnets are cancelling each other so they must not be in there good enough. Maybe there's too many . Maybe you would do better with a six pole generator than a 12. I checked this one of mine with the windings in parallel and in series, and it put out just about 3 times the voltage in series. It was 39.6 with an aluminum fan blade on the front of it. I'm going to build a little wind generator out of it but I have to get the pole put up. The reason I chose it for that project is, the PWM charge controller I'm going to use can't take over 50 volts...but the alternator I have will never go that high. I have another DC one that I'm putting together, a 3 foot aluminum propeller and a treadmill motor with a ground down pulley, to fit the prop's one inch hole. Just from holding it in the wind at ground level, I got 7 volts, so 18 feet up it should get at least 14. Mine is just a tinkering project to help the bottom set of 9 batteries, of the 18 to get the same voltage as the top set. I have a 24 volt system, and the top set tends to run a little higher on the voltage. If I can get any watts out of either of them , I may go to 20 batteries for the summer. I would have gotten them this month but I had to buy a freezer.
Thank you for such a helpful reply. The original rotor had 6 poles on the left half and 6 poles on the right half. I assume that means 6 North poles and 6 South poles. When I count the stator wires they are arranged in sets of 6 coils so I assumed 1North and 1South pole on the rotor for each of the 6 stator coils. So that is what I did with the magnets. Each electrical pole was replaced with a magnet. 6 North and 6 south. This patern is repeated twice more on the stator so I could add two more sets of 12 magnets but the rotor is too small for that so I added one more set. So now I have 6 stator coils being passed by two sets of 12 magnets. Output is still poor though.
Oh, well maybe it is a poor model to try this on. I would probably try a bigger alternator off of a bus and put some big magnets in there that would get it's attention. Something like a 200 amp Motorola off an old school bus. Like you said, the rotor is too small.
@@davidpotter9462 Strangely I am about to order another identical alternator. I am going to try to run an original one without magnets and see what figures I get.
For what its worth. You should have just taken the electromagnet out of the rotor and put a speaker magnet in there with a hole already in the middle..
First of all you shouldn't removed wires of rotor. You could give it a test using exciting the coil and check the voltage. Second you need higher RPM. Third it's better to go after a lower RPM solution, like converting a ceiling fan into a generator OR design it from beginning by building your coils and choosing strong magnets. OR you just could stop experimenting and spending money and instead buying an electric bike motor or a hub motor they put good output.
Thank you for commenting. I did test the alternator was working before I started my experiments. Yes I need higher rpm, 3000 rpm seems a fair figure for this alternator. I was hoping that as a PMA it would work at lower rpm but it does not. I have already tried buiding my own generator with home wound coils and magnets. I could not produce much power (Watts). I managed High voltage and low current. I do not wish to buy a solution because people tell me that alot of the claims given by manufacturers are false.
@@DaftOldMan yes most claims are false. But you should design a plan to see what form is working for you best, due to environment. For example if you have constant wind or water stream. I think an e-bike or hub motor of a hoverboard is good to give a try.
@@e.a297 Thank you. I was hoping that a PMA from an alternator would be a good way to produce power perhaps from wind. My experiments suggest it would be better to use the alternator as it was made originally. I think an electromagnetic rotor is much more powerful than Neodymium magnets. I have a few more videos about my experiments. You have been very helpful. thank you.
Bom dia aventureiro...você precisa definir o que você quer; mais potencia? Aumente o tamanho dos imãs ou aumente a rotação do gerador em teste ou os dois...Aí vai uma dica; jamais seccione um campo magnético com dois imãs pois você vai obter dois pulsos em cada bobina. Isto é perda. A largura de cada imã não pode ser maior que o espaço interno da bobina do estator. Nunca coloque bobinas em série...traga todos os terminais das bobinas para fora do estatpr e retifique individualmente cada uma e só então junte toda esta energia e alimente ou um bom inversor.
1. Agree. I use too much metal. I need laminated metal or perhaps aluminium which I do not have. 2. Disagree. I think this is correct magnets. See later video tests. 3. I cannot change stator wires as long as I use the built in rectifier. I think they may be arrange "star" but I am not certain Thank you for commenting. These comments help alot.
isolate test to just one phase; remove 12v plug circuit; we don't care about leak back from battery to ground (bad diode) do we? explain. seems that gerald morin was keeping something proprietary; the neodymium magnets should cancel the reluctance of the winding current field, yes? allowing higher rpm. oh the humanity.
@@DaftOldMan You are a courageous individual. I infer from several of the Gerald Morin vids that it is the RF pulse radiant energy which is plucked from the aether; a direct result of a resonant frequency pulse (as in the car's primary secondary winding coil producing enough voltage pressure (20000 volts) to cross the spark plug air gap. Listen on a hot muggy day to an am radio with an approaching thunder storm. That discharge is RF thus the crackle. Cars shield the RF. I remember back in the day, many had tin pots covering the plugs to shield them. Anyhow, maybe you can watch some of the Morin vids to see what I mean. I could be entirely wrong but I am here for moral support and comiseration. Cheers DTS
The pole pitch of the stator winding will determine the number and spacing of the permanent magnet poles on the rotor. Designing your rotor while ignoring this fact could result in opposing voltages being generated at different points of the same winding thus cancelling out each other, resulting in a low cumulative output.
Thank you for commenting. The stator has 6 coils arranged in a ring so I use 6 pairs of magnets arranged to cover each half of each coil. 6 pairs of magnets. The second set of magnets align with the second set of six coils.. There is a thrid set of coils but I cannot fit anymore magnets.
The alternator has too little number of windings. The more turns of wire= higher voltage. I was plagued by this same problem a while back but found out that a lot of windings along with 4 or 6 magnets worked perfectly.
Thank you for commenting. I have used more windings in the past but it did not help. More windings meant thinner wire so I got more voltage but less amps. How did you use so few magnets. I thought you needed 2 magnets for each winding to give a N and S on each side of the winding. My alternator has 6 pole windings so I need minimum 12 magnets (N-S) I think.
@@DaftOldMan Oh I forgot to mention that I rewound the whole stator. I rewound it just like you would an inrunner brushless motor (Look up how the windings in those brushless drills look like). I also found out that they usually 4-6 magnets so I stopped questioning and went with that since I didn't have any power tools to conduct trial and error. It makes around 73 volts at 1000rpm and also stalls immediately when you short the output. I'll use it in a wind turbine when I get out of this apartment.
@@kamisama9715 Wow. 73 volts at 1000 rpm is really good. Do you know what current (amps) you can get?
@@DaftOldMan I could get 3-4 amps out of it before it became too hard to turn the rotor cause of the Lenz effect
@@kamisama9715 Wow. That is roughly 300 Watts which is the target I was aiming for and missed by a mile. Well done and thank you for the help.
I think you should try 10 magnets 4 north at 12-6-3-9 o'clock and the rest south.. that's how it works out in my head. That's how I would do it. But that's just my opinion 😊
Thanks for commenting. There are so many options to try.
Maybe the magnets need to have the same field strength as when the rotor is connected to the battery.checked the amperage draw on battery by rotor says ammeter says 4amps.
I think you are correct and the electo-magnet is much much stronger than permanent magnets.
to me the idea seems very good but I would have fixed the magnets in a different way
being radial to the rotor, the centrifugal force will inevitably tend to detach them.
I'm sure that in a short enough time glued in this way they come off
You may be correct but the superglue metal to metal bond is very tough.
Trying something out very similar to you. I'm waiting on some n52 arc magnets to arrive, hopefully the results will be a bit more promising. Test will be at 4k rpm.
That is great news. The more we can find out the better. I want my alternator to run at about 1000 rpm but that only has to be the drive speed, so I could drive with 1000 rpm and gear alternator to 4000 rpm,. Matbe.
@@DaftOldMan my only worry ahead of getting it started is keeping the magnets stuck to the rotor at 4000rpm? Going to use some epoxy and perhaps encase it in some polyester resin. If you was going to do it again, is there any thing else you would recommend?
@@MansHobbsInterests I am only using super glue while I run tests. If I ever get a working rotor I will use epoxy as you suggest.
@@DaftOldMan after around 2k magnets will fly off with super glue 🙏
@@MansHobbsInterests You may be correct but I am only spinning with a cordless drill so no magnets harmed in my tests so far. My biggest problem has been getting the magnets off of the rotor when I want to change their position. I learned early on that heat softens the glue but destroys the magnets. Oops!
i plead ignorance; do we care if the alternator has diodes? if so, why? don't we want to generate a pulse wave form (vs square or sinusoidal)? Can you put the output on an oscilloscope?
I tested diodes to be sure that they were not faulty. I tested AC output and it was only 4v.
Thanks for sharing
Thank you for commenting.
I think you only have 3V magnets, have a look on Ebay for some 12V ones. :-)
is this why we don't see many Permanent Mannet Alternstor's on cars, does it mean that a permanent magnet will never match that of a coil?
I am beginning to think that PMA are like unicorns.
Hello. How many rpm do you use?
Could you find someting to spin faster? Like a angle grinder.
Cheers.
Yes I can spin it faster and I will probably get more voltage but I really wanted to get 12v at about 1000 rpm.
@@DaftOldMan I think it will not perform under 3000 rpm, as the pullies on engines always make the alternator spin about 3 times faster than engine rpm, If the engine can rev to 6000 rpm, the alternator will be at 18000 rpm.
lets hope the magnets don’t fly away.
I think aiming for more than 6000 rpm should work.
Don’t forget that the original rotor varies in field strengh folowing the rpm, magnets stay the same strengh.
Cheers.
Hello,
i think you do a basic mistake in your measuring.
You set your DMM on AC, that means, you only measure the AC-Part of the outlet power.
If you set it do DC, you will get a much higer voltage.
Keep in mind, when you use a diode in the circuit, you only get the DC-Output.
And one more thing: The alternator has 3 output-circuits, the internal connection will "alternate" each circuit to one strong output.
To see, if the alternator works in this setup with the neodyms, you have to measure between the Housing and the thick M8 Screw in DC-Mode. Shure you will get much more than 3 Volts.
And then you should rotate on 1000 rpm.or more.
Basics on the car-alternator:
The regulation in a car-alternator only occour on the output-voltage, not the current.
The regulator of tose alternators will let some more or less current to the rotor-windings over the carbons and the slip-rings.
Indeed you don't need both, the rotor-windings and the sliprings anymore, when you make a permanent magnetic field on the rotor.
Just look at a regulator, it will be allways a specification to 14,x V and never a specification about the current. These 14,x Volts is the voltage, on wich the regulator stops all current to the sliprings. If the voltage goes down in the harness including the voltage of the battery, it will start working again, by let some current go through the carbons to the slip rings.
The output current depends on the windings of the stator and the resilience of the diodes.
And the diodes in a car-alternator are always customized to the need of the car. An old Mercedes 200 do not need a high current output, though the alternator has to load a small battery and less equipment (lights, Ignition andsoon), a 200D must have a much stronger alternator, cause it must load a 88Ah-Battery.
In actual cars you will find always a alternator over 80 Amps, cause engine and automatic gearbox-management, all the gimmicks like abs and other assistance-systems, all actuators like electric steering, climate control needs a secured power supply and in most cars the battery is very small.
Normally a car-alternator is set to a transmission-ratio of 1:2, means on rotation of the crancshaft means 2 rotations of the alternator. That's, by the way, the trick to get a electronic tachometer in a diesel automobile. They only use a separate winding, wich put out a single AC-signal on Clamp "W" to wich the tachometer is connected. So if you get a 1000 rpm on the toachometer in you dashboard, it means that the alternator rotates with 2000 rpm.
You had to measure one pair of the outlet-wirings to another pair without any diodes between.
So unmount the diode-plate and keep the rotation up to 1000 ore more rpm.
Buy measure-wirings to your dmm with croc-clamps, the output-current or voltage may be higher than your heart will tolerate.
Allways keep your hands off the wirings !!
Thank you for a very interesting reply. Unfortunately my DMM is set correctly fot DC Amps not AC. If you watch my other videos you will see that I have tried various different ways to arrange the wires and test. Comments like yours are very helpful.
The magnets must not be in it right ; it should put out more volts. They have to be spaced right, and alternating polarity. This old Honda PMA I have even puts out 13.3 and it's from the 70's. I know the magnets aren't that great in it...with the ones you have, you should get 15v. or something. The one I have has six magnets and six poles...do you have the same number or twice as many of magnets as poles>? The magnets are cancelling each other so they must not be in there good enough. Maybe there's too many . Maybe you would do better with a six pole generator than a 12. I checked this one of mine with the windings in parallel and in series, and it put out just about 3 times the voltage in series. It was 39.6 with an aluminum fan blade on the front of it. I'm going to build a little wind generator out of it but I have to get the pole put up. The reason I chose it for that project is, the PWM charge controller I'm going to use can't take over 50 volts...but the alternator I have will never go that high. I have another DC one that I'm putting together, a 3 foot aluminum propeller and a treadmill motor with a ground down pulley, to fit the prop's one inch hole. Just from holding it in the wind at ground level, I got 7 volts, so 18 feet up it should get at least 14. Mine is just a tinkering project to help the bottom set of 9 batteries, of the 18 to get the same voltage as the top set. I have a 24 volt system, and the top set tends to run a little higher on the voltage. If I can get any watts out of either of them , I may go to 20 batteries for the summer. I would have gotten them this month but I had to buy a freezer.
Thank you for such a helpful reply. The original rotor had 6 poles on the left half and 6 poles on the right half. I assume that means 6 North poles and 6 South poles. When I count the stator wires they are arranged in sets of 6 coils so I assumed 1North and 1South pole on the rotor for each of the 6 stator coils. So that is what I did with the magnets. Each electrical pole was replaced with a magnet. 6 North and 6 south. This patern is repeated twice more on the stator so I could add two more sets of 12 magnets but the rotor is too small for that so I added one more set. So now I have 6 stator coils being passed by two sets of 12 magnets. Output is still poor though.
Oh, well maybe it is a poor model to try this on. I would probably try a bigger alternator off of a bus and put some big magnets in there that would get it's attention. Something like a 200 amp Motorola off an old school bus. Like you said, the rotor is too small.
@@davidpotter9462 Strangely I am about to order another identical alternator. I am going to try to run an original one without magnets and see what figures I get.
For what its worth. You should have just taken the electromagnet out of the rotor and put a speaker magnet in there with a hole already in the middle..
I tried that. It did not work.
First of all you shouldn't removed wires of rotor. You could give it a test using exciting the coil and check the voltage.
Second you need higher RPM.
Third it's better to go after a lower RPM solution, like converting a ceiling fan into a generator OR design it from beginning by building your coils and choosing strong magnets.
OR you just could stop experimenting and spending money and instead buying an electric bike motor or a hub motor they put good output.
Thank you for commenting. I did test the alternator was working before I started my experiments. Yes I need higher rpm, 3000 rpm seems a fair figure for this alternator. I was hoping that as a PMA it would work at lower rpm but it does not. I have already tried buiding my own generator with home wound coils and magnets. I could not produce much power (Watts). I managed High voltage and low current. I do not wish to buy a solution because people tell me that alot of the claims given by manufacturers are false.
@@DaftOldMan yes most claims are false. But you should design a plan to see what form is working for you best, due to environment. For example if you have constant wind or water stream. I think an e-bike or hub motor of a hoverboard is good to give a try.
@@e.a297 Thank you. I was hoping that a PMA from an alternator would be a good way to produce power perhaps from wind. My experiments suggest it would be better to use the alternator as it was made originally. I think an electromagnetic rotor is much more powerful than Neodymium magnets. I have a few more videos about my experiments. You have been very helpful. thank you.
@@DaftOldMan th-cam.com/video/g6hQcdjcI9Y/w-d-xo.html
Polska pasta do lutowania🤣
Tak. Kupiłem na ebayu z Polski.
Bom dia aventureiro...você precisa definir o que você quer; mais potencia? Aumente o tamanho dos imãs ou aumente a rotação do gerador em teste ou os dois...Aí vai uma dica; jamais seccione um campo magnético com dois imãs pois você vai obter dois pulsos em cada bobina. Isto é perda. A largura de cada imã não pode ser maior que o espaço interno da bobina do estator. Nunca coloque bobinas em série...traga todos os terminais das bobinas para fora do estatpr e retifique individualmente cada uma e só então junte toda esta energia e alimente ou um bom inversor.
Obrigada. O emblema do alternador indica 110 amperes em 14v, que é 1540W. Eu não recebo uma fração disso usando ímãs.
1 too much metal.
2 too much powerfully magnets
3 change the connection of the stator wires.
1. Agree. I use too much metal. I need laminated metal or perhaps aluminium which I do not have.
2. Disagree. I think this is correct magnets. See later video tests.
3. I cannot change stator wires as long as I use the built in rectifier. I think they may be arrange "star" but I am not certain
Thank you for commenting. These comments help alot.
Дайте ему 6000 оборотов, как в автомобиле!
isolate test to just one phase; remove 12v plug circuit; we don't care about leak back from battery to ground (bad diode) do we? explain. seems that gerald morin was keeping something proprietary; the neodymium magnets should cancel the reluctance of the winding current field, yes? allowing higher rpm. oh the humanity.
I hope to test each phase output soon.
@@DaftOldMan You are a courageous individual. I infer from several of the Gerald Morin vids that it is the RF pulse radiant energy which is plucked from the aether; a direct result of a resonant frequency pulse (as in the car's primary secondary winding coil producing enough voltage pressure (20000 volts) to cross the spark plug air gap. Listen on a hot muggy day to an am radio with an approaching thunder storm. That discharge is RF thus the crackle. Cars shield the RF. I remember back in the day, many had tin pots covering the plugs to shield them. Anyhow, maybe you can watch some of the Morin vids to see what I mean. I could be entirely wrong but I am here for moral support and comiseration. Cheers DTS