Not mentioned in your video, but for attack-defend maps, you can resupply as engineer in the forward spawns by edging yourself at the door and changing load-outs, via the load-out binds, as a way to resupply for buildings.
literally what I was thinking as I was watching. All these spawns that are more detailed are the ones you would spend the most time in. When making a map, you gotta focus your effort on the stuff that matters the most, and when a player will spend at most a second or 2 per life in a spawn room, it makes sense not to put as much effort into it and to focus that effort elsewhere.
The Mountain Lab spawn also has a nice bit of environmental storytelling included, with the airboat apparently being the means by which the BLU team arrived.
A few have story telling like that. Hoodoo has an Ambulance and cart from a tunnel. Pier has a boat below the spawn with a bomb being lifted up to the higher floor. Steel has a whole train just outside spawn as if Blue rode in on it. There's a lot of "Blue arrived to attack Red" story telling."
"omg people are out of ideas" My guy, this is breaking down the core design philosophy of the game. If you can't appreciate that, I'm guessing those 8 minute 1 second clip dumps called "CASUAL IS WACKY" would be more your speed
@@Great_Bluenigh on 2 decades of the same memes and countless deaths to random crits have rotted the brain such that TF2 players are incapable of high level critical thinking. I reckon you probably get a lot of comments like this on your more analytical videos. Love your work as well.
I think DeGroot Keep's spawn rooms are also really good, especially Blu's. Lots of nice storytelling in that one, plus it has two exits, and even training dummies for target practice!
I think the bland spawnrooms is an intentional choice to push players out into the battlefield. Most of the nice looking spawns are the ones that you have to wait in during setup.
That's probably a fair assessment, but one can't help but feel in some cases that the forward spawn rooms are kinda squeezed in as an afterthought, since it's an easy mistake as a map maker to think that spawn rooms aren't as big as they really are.
I always loved Thundermountains Spawnrooms, with how several of them have nice views of the map, or they have a window where you can peak and see ''your team'' (the models) doin funny stuff
Bloodwater is based on a competitive version of the map, which has that change! It's also why it has the tall grate fence at the second point instead of the small concrete barrier
Def recommend something like pl_badwater_pro_v12 over the original. Something I thought he would talk about more is how the spawn points change as you cap points, which can make an enormous difference when it takes so long to roll out as the cart progresses in OG badwater. It's crazy how many map fixes are made by the community that valve just doesn't notice or care about to update their own stuff. Also, Bloodwater also has an additional overlooked room on the second to last point which is great for teleporters on either team.
I like a lot of the non immersive spawnrooms because you basically are walking out of a small building or functionally a closet, anything that isn't a small generic functional box or really small like the 5cp one ways, but something like the chinese koth map is a great storage room.
Kong King's spawn rooms are alright, but imagine if they were speakeasies with poker tables! Something to fit the early neon-noire aesthetic of the map.
@@irregularassassin6380 Nah, too much detail for something you spend maybe 5 seconds in, tops. For BLU payload and A/D spawns detail can go a long way because you have to sit in there for upwards of a minute, but there's no point in making spawns look nice if you're just going to walk out of there the second you spawn in.
The 5cp spawn rooms only unlock when you control the middle and forward point. They're nerfed precisely to avoid the home field advantage that the defending team gets. It's inconsistent. Also by making the rooms exit-only they can avoid complicated door logic since the door just needs to open when someone's inside. The hypothetical entrance clip doesn't have to be toggled on and off based on which point is active (which could potentially get the door stuck open), or risk someone being able to enter a spawn point behind the points that are being contested.
some maps have the forward spawn spawns located 1 point behind, so when you capture mid you spawn at your 2nd point, when you capture the enemy teams 2nd point you spawn at mid i dont see why oneway doors are necessary on maps like these other than to prevent hiding in spawn in comp, but coldfront is in no way a 6s map and its full of oneway spawns, and process IS a 6s map and yet the spawnrooms are exploitable, you can actually hide in a forward spawn even after you lose the point, and ive seen a dude actually do that. as far as i know, this has never caused an issue in an actual 6s match oneway doors feel like a very aggressive way to prevent engineers from playing the game until either team gets pushed back to last
Forward spawns are empty for a reason. They're meant to be light on visuals so that the only thing in your immediate vision is the spawn door. The final spawn rooms on 5cp maps are often just a bare room and don't allow you back inside in order to subconsciously keep gameplay flowing. This is the same reason why maps are more detailed in the playable space but nearly everything out of bounds is empty fields. It can actually hurt readability to have too much detail in spaces, and the source engine has a strict brush and faces limit, so sometimes mappers have to keep less important areas sparse for that reason.
For engineer: most spawn rooms let you build just outside the door so you can stand inside and refill your metal by either changing a weapon or binding `item_loadpreset 0` to a key and pressing it. It's really trivial to have one direction spawn rooms when the Eureka effect can also teleport you in with ease.
Some maps like process have func_nobuild brushes in the way so you can’t build while holding the door open. The eureka effect is definitely a good way to get around it though
This is simply incredible! I love your videos, the way you find little details in tf2 maps and also tell us some interesting facts really captures me. Good video, LED
I think that locker room props are an important design choice, it allows people to immediately feel "safe". That is because this prop is never used outside of the spawn rooms. Resupply cabinet is another staple of a spawn room, but I think the more the better. Immersive designs are obviously good, but we shouldn't neglect significance of other symbols (locker rooms) that are connected with the feeling of a spawn room.
8:25 If the other entrances are blocked, as well, this will make spies unable to attack the nests that are always built right outside of the spawn at the second point.
Another point to make about specifically first spawns for blu in a/d cp and payload maps is that players are gonna spend a while there twiddling their thumbs waiting for setup to end. Its great to have some "player enrichment" for BLU to pass time with. Visuals help, but so do random things like adding stuff for players to jump and climb onto, or physics props to mess around with or even a deathpit for people to hurl themselves into for fun.
the doors are one way on 5cp so that it doesn't make the point easily defendable. If the team defending mid on badlands had constant access to a resup cabinet you would just never be able to retake it lol
It is a vague memory, but one of the past favourite spawn rooms had to be from a lost and forgotten custom map call "Koth_basement_v4" Was made by a L4D2 mapper. The Tf2 maps they made were always very... unique. Basement was one of the most claustrophobic in a serious way maps I've ever seen. They also worked on a 5cp map that was 5 different skyscrapers and a territory control map where the red spawn was a lighthouse directly in the middle. I was their only playtester at the time, but I vividly remember these maps and how you could tell a l4d2 mapper made them, they felt so damn weird. But the l4d2 philosophy of "making saferoom interesting and fun to exist in for long periods of time carried over to the spawn rooms. I really wish I could tell you where to find them, but it is all lost media. The download link is gone, but you can still find vids of the skyscrapers and the basement.
@@georgethakur Actually took me bit to find them, but these were the only ones I could find. /watch?v=hx3gDOawsQU /watch?v=DZJfHcHLgo0&list=PL_1E9EkIF5hRRE7OAJhsdlvNPqphvgNhs&ab_channel=OvercookedSushi
I agree, good points. I love the aesthetics of the game and being able to actually leave is important and overlooked. Particularly what I like is when it shows you how the blu mercs got there, like hardwood as a bunch of crashed jeeps in their starting spawn.
Something that I still find that's important about a spawn room is how long it takes for you to actually leave it. Almost no spawn room suffers from this problem, but Egypt noticeably has you waste much time walking to get anywhere outside the spawn room, specially BLU. Stage 2 is the most noticeable, for if you want to leave through the small door, you have to walk all the way through, and you are not even allowed to build a teleporter. I find this much annoying!
I love your videos. They are well researched and informative along with having plenty of comically exaggerated examples supporting your points. Keep it up!
3:00 because it's a balancing feature. In 6s there's such a thing as "sacrifice", or just "sac". Basically to avoid stalemate, while pushing into enemy last, one of your player can rush in, get destroyed, switch to sniper to get some space and try to drop enemy medic, or spy to make unexpected play. There's a period after sac, when pushing team has to play 5v6, and it gives a chance for enemy team to countersac or make any play with lower risk. To switch you need to get into spawnroom, you need someone to open a door for you, or sac by yourself. If fowardspawns would be open all time, there won't be any risk at all, becuase enemy team won't know about 5v6. and basically there's no risk at all for pushing team, cuz thier player can get back into fight real quick, instead of waiting "15 seconds to respawn". Also. It will be a nightmare for flank players to play behind enemy lines, when there is fully working resuply room for enemies. There's no cabinet, but resuply bind exists. (also you can build as engie in foward anyway, just don't leave it fully). (no fowardspawns = stalemate, 5cps are stalematy enough in pubs already, cuz pablo.2017 and his friends are building 5 sentries on mid)
@@pepperonipizza8200 5cp does not work in casual, because heavy, engie and sniper presents on map all the time, w/o class limits. But in 6v6 it's the most balanced and fun gamemode. Back-n-forward action.
But the walk to the forward spawn is like 7 seconds. And it will be another 7 seconds back. It's such a long walk that visiting forward spawn might as well be respawning. You just don't have to deal with the +-5 seconds spawn waves can induce. The logic is kinda flawed. By the way, how do people deal with the fact that badlands has a forward spawn that can always be accessed and holds a resupply cabinet? How does that work?
@@redstonewarrior0152 you counted it wrong: ~6 seconds to sac, 15 to spawn and another 10-15 just to walk to the frontline again (if u want to offclass u swap to spy or sniper, not just to scout or solly). Istead of 7 to rocketjump/run as scout to spawn, and switch. Badlands is not being played in comp since like 2017 ig.(?) Even tho, some maps has special versions just for comp. Like, granary_pro is more optimized for 6s, has some objects moved/removed, badwater_pro for highlander has 1 more forwardspawns, and new routes, prcoess splash fixed. So when comp tf2 oldheads were playing badlands, they most likely used badlands_pro version of the map w/o this forwardspawn bug and some other features, like fixed splash on spire.
Because I *only* play attack/defense, I know some funny details you can do in the spawns of basically every map of the game mode. Here's a big list: Dustbow: - in the first stage (blue spawn) you can be on top of a lantern in that right corridor with the rail, as soldier, demo, etc.. - in the second stage (red spawn) you can be at the top of both of the resupply cabin as heavy, spy, etc... Just get on the bench and crouch+jump into a metal bar in the wall - in the last stage, you can do the item above in the blue team! Mountain Lab: in Blue Spawn, you can be at the top of the "wood frame" of that inner metal door as heavy, spy, etc... The jumps are quite tricky, but you can do partner taunts there, too! Egypt - in the first stage (blue spawn) you can be at the top of the resupply cabin in a way that looks like you're floating. You can do partner taunts while "floating" too, but he hitbox is quite precise, so people will eventually fail at the taunt, and that's funny! - in the first stage (red spawn) you can be stuck in a corner by jumping into a torch (using some boxes or the height of the stair). Partner taunts works too and it's good to confuse new players. in the last stage (blue spawn), in the right door, you can jump into the middle of the pillars to exit the spawn faster while the door is going down. Just saying this because I rarely see other people using this and I think it's useful. Gravel Pit: in the blue spawn, if you know you're gonna lose the game, you can do a rocket jump / sentry jump to be at the top of a "light pole". Nobody looks up there! Junction: - At the blue spawn, you can be at the top of both resupply cabin by doing some jumps and strafes. You can further jump to a light switch to be in a even funnier place. - At the blue spawn, going towards A, there's a computer that is not solid, you can hide there and do partner taunts as well. - in the red spawn, you can switch loadouts if you are in the base but not in same room as the resupply cabin. I wonder why that happen... Gorge: - in the first blue spawn, you can be at the top of the resupply cabin as heavy, engi, etc.. And even above the vent for soldier and scout. - you reach the second blue spawn as pyro with the detonator. Additionally, there's a tree right after the spawn that you can stand on it, as any mobile class. Nobody looks up there, and you can camp the point and the spawn from there. Mercenary Park: - In the first blue spawn, you be at the top of the resupply cabin as heavy with the GRU. You can also reach the metal bars at the ceiling as pyro with the detonator.
Blues second spawn on dustbowl was so bad that they added a drop down on the left because it was really easy to sticky spam the trench and then move into spawn camp. It happened all the time on ps3
It's great seeing someone else who enjoys looking into this games little map details. This game really is one of the most interesting mp games even from a map design standpoint
Great, informative, entertaining video as always :D I think it'd be interesting if you made a video on the original six maps that TF2 launched with (2Fort, Dustbowl, Granary, Well, Gravel Pit, Hydro), how they've changed, and what we can learn from analyzing TF2's map design and art style back in 2007 compared to now.
Funnily enough, in Bloodwater, Badwater's Halloween counterpart, the second spawn exit for BLU is actually present, and as expected, it can help a lot in many ways, but it still feels extremely weird to have it, at least for me
Me? I'm a simple man. Just a guy. I think my favorite type of room design is the "safe room" An employee break room, a spawn room, you name it. Just a small decorated little space where you can take a break from it all, shielded from whatever oposes you, temporarily. This video is truly for me
9:10 there's a halloween version of badwater that includes a door here and it's soooo much better. I've never understood why its not on the normal version too...
Real talk; What is to stop the community from patching these maps ourselves? Fix all the issues like you had mentioned in Dustbowl video, then host them on a private server? Maybe make a git of development so there is a hub for patch notes and version history.
Some people have done this to a limited extent, but I don't think it's worth the hassle just to play on community servers unless you run a large chain like Uncletopia or something
Nice video. You can't go back into the spawns for 5CP by design. It has an effect on the pace of the game. One interesting exception to this rule is the forward spawn on badlands which DOES let you back in and has a resupply cabinet, but it's off to the side in what is considered the flank. You could argue that it entices certain traffic patterns across the map.
Tbf a lot of the competitive pro versions of maps have some of these changes, main one coming to mind is the second exit added to the second blu spawn on badwater
I think Dustbowl's spawn rooms are also really great aesthetically. It really shows the early-tf2 era art-style that they talked about in the developer commentary, where at the start you see more "natural" settings with BLU and RED trying to disguise their operations but as you go further the mask starts slipping off... and you see in dustbowl as it gets more and more industrialized. In this case the spawn rooms having giant missiles underneath them. Also, Hydro's spawn room underneath the satelite dish is very unique. It's a long, round corridor that doesn't ressemble anything else in any other map. Even though it's a bit barren, it gets points for being unique. I love little topics like these and I think that map making in source engine is an art form, I wouldn't mind more videos talking about small and overlooked details like these.
I don't get the hate for koth_king's spawn room when it seems to check off at least 2/3 of the most important features, multiple exits and a good level of immersion. It has three exits, the large centre that you can push out of, as well as two flanks, one leading to a higher level, and one leading to a faster route to the objective. As for immersion, it's a warehouse in a backstreet in Hong Kong that's serving as a false front for a gambling den, as you can see in the viewing area in the back, it also uses much of the same assets as the rest of the level. Calling it bad immersion because it looks like a warehouse when it's meant to be a warehouse is dumb, especially when there are so many maps with spawn rooms that are just four walls and a door.
I love spawn buildings in Planetside 2. It's a design challenge to accomodate a 4v10 fight and 40v40 at the same space, and give protection from all kinds of vehicles. They are almost open, giving view advantage to defending side. And lack of details whisper: don't sit in the spawn room, go out! Tech plant spawn building has an underground pipe system, which gives access to an entire base. But it's also sort of hidden out of normal sight when you run out, which makes the normal way out more popular. Isamir underground bunker facilites have many temporary spawns; lighted arrows on the floor to show the way; ability for attackers to shut the main doors, so defenders are forced to take the vents out. Interesting base to play on.
Ngl, desperately fighting your way out of your spawn room as the timer until the facility is capped ticks down truly is a feeling everyone should experience once. Espetially if they make it.
while i do agree that aesthetically egypts spawn rooms are great they’re some of my least favourite spawns because of how unnecessarily large they are on some stages it’s like a ten+ second walk out of spawn and it always really annoys me
2fort has that funny hole on the floor as a spawn """door""" for one of the spawns. It's just hilarious to drop behind an enemy passing by and backstabbing him 😂
My favorite spawn rooms are the ones in Team Fortress Classic, because they have security turrets. You never know what kind of exploits people will come up with.
this was a really fun video!!! i was thinking about this topic the other day with how some of borneo's spawnrooms look, and how you could add detail to then in order to flesh them out and give life into otherwise boring rooms. i imagine some spawns are rather baren due to either optimisation or then being added late into development, or even afterwards during playtesting, thus not receiving as much attention. even some very old maps have interesting layout changes (dustbowl didn't have the dropdown on stage 2 blue spawn and the stairs right outside red's shortcut on stage 3, hence why they sometimes feel a lil strange), so i imagine it'd be a pain to decorate an entire spawn only to rearrange everything or scrap it entirely.
9:51 Thie is incorrect. BLU's Second spawn area only had 1 path (which leads to the 2 gates that opens to the outside) to the battlements back then, and near RED's Exit area to BLU'S Final spawn area there was no stairs leading up to the first bridged area.
A spawn room I have trouble with is 2fort. One spawn room has two exits: one that leads directly to battlements (which is easily spammable), and the other drops you near your front door (which is at least usually protected by a sentry). This spawn room is okay, but the exit onto battlements could use a window on the door. The drop into hallway is fine as it is, but could maybe be gated off somehow, so opposing demos can't toss pipes up there so easily. The other spawnroom is problematic. One exit, no windows, and probably one of the most commonly spawntrapped doors in the entire game. Any class can spawn trap here. No height advantage, no means to block projectiles, and being trapped here even allows the opposing team to very easily go to your intel. I've seen an entire team of 12+ players get shut down by one phlog pyro, or one demo, or one heavy+medic combo for upwards of 5 or 6 minutes at a time, which is more than enough for the other team to win the entire game (unless you're on something like skial 24/7 2fort where there are no winners).
2:56 I got nothing for this video except for this part. You can still change equipment, just don't move, because it will force you to respawn automatically.
9:07 but because this spawn is only available after you've capped the second to last point, your team has so much control over the area in between the next point and spawn that if someone is spawncamping they had to do a major flank
Idk if anyone said, but that door on badwater that lines up with spawn but isn’t accessible is actually part of the halloween map bloodwater. They did use it, but only for the Halloween version
I feel like the forward spawns in Badlands are also tailored to their environment (for the most part). It's in middle of no where so it make sense for it to not have any tech and just be an empty ass room. And I'm purely talking aesthetics, im sure there are balance reasons too. And one more thing, if the map maker made every single spawn point in a map, as opposed to usually focusing on making the last point special looking, then that would destroy the charm I feel like. If everything was designed to feel special then nothing would...
I agree with the window thing, and the resupply cabinet. If the only players which can take advantage of a respawn room are those with binds which will automatically restock them or change loadouts, then that's a failure on the map designers' part.
Those bits left as hints for you to string a plot together like means to get to the map or why the objective is what it is show why VALVe today, fresh greens, are basically afraid to even touch TF2. It's the best of the best.
the reason many 5cp maps have one way forward spawns is because quite frankly most of them are not for casual mode and are not balanced around casual mode. having a forward resupply cabinet that you're able to freely enter whenever you want is honestly broken in some cases to the point where loadout binds that let you bypass the lack of cabinet are actually a bit contentious in comp. also not having forward spawns would be an absolute nightmare for 5cp and wouldn't work with the gamemode. its supposed to be a back and forth but with no forward spawns if a team wins one team fight they can pretty easily steamroll from their last all the way to the enemy's last
3:12 I think you overlooked the approach that I personally use with one-way (and no-restock) spawnrooms, - having a loadout change keybind will respawn you with full ammo, so as long as you can build within reach from spawn entrance, lack of supply/door is not a problem. It is very much a non-obvious and stupid mechanic though.
If I recall correctly, back in the day, changing class triggered a suicide anyway (no swift switch if you're in the spawn room area), so it's only the resources or loadout change issue for these old 5-CP maps. Teleporters are also optional there due to how important spawn-to-point timings being adjusted regardless of what the players do as the contested point changes is.
I’m right there with ya on the 5cp “one way door” thing. A lot of maps have that and whenever I’m playing engie I haaaaaate it. I’d almost always rather we stuck with the second spawn and just let me set up my tele there than have a more forward spawn my team likely won’t be able to hold for very long and is much harder to set up a tele on
I do like Blu's spawn on Mountain Lab, there is also a little bit of story telling, at least to me as you see the boats in the back, that is where Blu probably came from, I do like it when maps have a little bit of story telling in it, even in the starting spawn rooms, to show where the teams came from, especially when it comes to something like attack defend
I haven’t brought it up in a while, but I have a Discord server! I use it to chat with ya’ll and set up events, so hop in: discord.gg/4UMFUcYFeM
the rock with the mad milk though
Not mentioned in your video, but for attack-defend maps, you can resupply as engineer in the forward spawns by edging yourself at the door and changing load-outs, via the load-out binds, as a way to resupply for buildings.
LED my friend create the good map the name is Podzolic , can you see?
top 10 most pointless youtube videos
@@Azilythe fiif8ggg
I am now cursed with the knowledge that the badwater benches levitate
i am one with the knowledge that the badwater benches levitate
I am indifferent to the knowledge that the badwater benches levitate
I have no knowledge about the badwater benches levitating
Here's more cursed knowledge
The water cooler in Red's second spawn in steel to the left is facing the wrong way
its worse than you think
Really glossed over the fact Blu first spawns are so detailed are because Blu spends over a minute in them in setup.
That's a pretty good point. Huh.
literally what I was thinking as I was watching. All these spawns that are more detailed are the ones you would spend the most time in. When making a map, you gotta focus your effort on the stuff that matters the most, and when a player will spend at most a second or 2 per life in a spawn room, it makes sense not to put as much effort into it and to focus that effort elsewhere.
The Mountain Lab spawn also has a nice bit of environmental storytelling included, with the airboat apparently being the means by which the BLU team arrived.
that gives me some old de_nuke vibes with the van crashed into a gate and a dead guard in the booth near T spawn
@@dermeister8787 de_train has a similar arrival for the terrorist team.
Enclosure also has a neat little detail where you load the cart onto an airboat on stage 2 and you see the airboat behind you in spawn on stage 3.
True. It's these details that build a world.
A few have story telling like that. Hoodoo has an Ambulance and cart from a tunnel. Pier has a boat below the spawn with a bomb being lifted up to the higher floor. Steel has a whole train just outside spawn as if Blue rode in on it. There's a lot of "Blue arrived to attack Red" story telling."
you didn't have to make the thumbnail go so damn hard
Counterpoint: Spawn
It's eternity in there...
@@NykoZeraoraemesis blue mentioned let's goo
@@JangoLibre
Emesis red when??
@@Serial__DesginationNemesis purple when?
The spawn room is where I spend the most of my time in tf2, besides the respawn counter.
I like spawn rooms that tell you a story
when the emesis is blue
When the Spawn is Camped
emesis blue
Valve, please give us an update, PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO TALK ABOUT THE F*ING SPAWN ROOMS.
We just got the 64 gb update 🤓
What years without a major update does to a mf
"omg people are out of ideas"
My guy, this is breaking down the core design philosophy of the game. If you can't appreciate that, I'm guessing those 8 minute 1 second clip dumps called "CASUAL IS WACKY" would be more your speed
@@Great_Bluenigh on 2 decades of the same memes and countless deaths to random crits have rotted the brain such that TF2 players are incapable of high level critical thinking. I reckon you probably get a lot of comments like this on your more analytical videos.
Love your work as well.
@@Great_Blue Spawn rooms in tf2 always seemed a strange case to me
I’m still bummed they never used the class specific spawns. It’d be so so cool to have a dedicated sniper spawn on some payload maps.
Agreed
Or dedicated Spy spawns that let you spawn further into enemy territory.
@@TheTdw2000HELL YES!!
@@TheTdw2000 Its called flank rout
@@TheTdw2000no on the spy spawns behind behind enemy lines it removes the skill to go behind, also it would just get spawn camped
You forgot to mention it feels eternity in there and it's longer than you think.
I’ve seen the other side. It’s longer than you think.
Archibald…
Archibald…
@@amazingnoo9935 archihairy
The basement spawn rooms in 2fort with no spawn points 💀
Those are perhaps some of the creepiest rooms
Those are resupply rooms, as the map originally shipped without the health and ammo packs in the basement.
It's an elevator, if you switch classes while in there you go up to one of the spawn rooms
@@ronaid-with-an-inever thought of it like that, but there’s no elevator door in either of the spawn rooms that would connect to the basement
@@syco9008 emesis blue:
Spawn rooms are my favorite places in a map aesthetically. Especially Mossrock's Blu spawn takes the cake. (Monster Bash is a close second)
I didn’t mention the Halloween or Christmas maps, but there are some great candidates there as well
I think DeGroot Keep's spawn rooms are also really good, especially Blu's. Lots of nice storytelling in that one, plus it has two exits, and even training dummies for target practice!
I think the bland spawnrooms is an intentional choice to push players out into the battlefield. Most of the nice looking spawns are the ones that you have to wait in during setup.
That's probably a fair assessment, but one can't help but feel in some cases that the forward spawn rooms are kinda squeezed in as an afterthought, since it's an easy mistake as a map maker to think that spawn rooms aren't as big as they really are.
badwater spawn , slow fall damage kills lol
I always loved Thundermountains Spawnrooms, with how several of them have nice views of the map, or they have a window where you can peak and see ''your team'' (the models) doin funny stuff
Yeah, they're nice
The pool lanes look so cozy. Like an alpine lodge resort with your buddies.
9:17 Bloodwater version has that door... and it was very brilliant idea, also everyone would go to that way too.
Bloodwater is based on a competitive version of the map, which has that change! It's also why it has the tall grate fence at the second point instead of the small concrete barrier
Def recommend something like pl_badwater_pro_v12 over the original. Something I thought he would talk about more is how the spawn points change as you cap points, which can make an enormous difference when it takes so long to roll out as the cart progresses in OG badwater. It's crazy how many map fixes are made by the community that valve just doesn't notice or care about to update their own stuff. Also, Bloodwater also has an additional overlooked room on the second to last point which is great for teleporters on either team.
Tf2c badwater has a door there
10:22
Looks like he's in the barrel today.
brickiest brick in the barrel
0:08 you could also pick a good map and talk about it for 12 hours
Never
badwater@@LEDs
@@LEDs dustbowl
@@LEDs Do you know what video he's referencing ?
Damn, imagine @@LEDs's version of 12h badwater? instead of yapping, there would be an actual history, review, and a tutorial on making this map
0:35 - You just *_had_* to do that on purpose, didn't you?
ya
I was finding this comment
Those Spawn Rooms better be good, after all, the time you spend in them is longer than you think, it's eternity in there.
My eyes hurt.
*shaking insanely*
DMV vibes...
You know, emesis blue tried to warn us about the respawn machine
It's eternity in there...
I like a lot of the non immersive spawnrooms because you basically are walking out of a small building or functionally a closet, anything that isn't a small generic functional box or really small like the 5cp one ways, but something like the chinese koth map is a great storage room.
Kong King's spawn rooms are alright, but imagine if they were speakeasies with poker tables! Something to fit the early neon-noire aesthetic of the map.
Kong King could definitely be much better.
@@irregularassassin6380 Nah, too much detail for something you spend maybe 5 seconds in, tops.
For BLU payload and A/D spawns detail can go a long way because you have to sit in there for upwards of a minute, but there's no point in making spawns look nice if you're just going to walk out of there the second you spawn in.
@@irregularassassin6380 or maybe chinese restaurants or a bar
The 5cp spawn rooms only unlock when you control the middle and forward point. They're nerfed precisely to avoid the home field advantage that the defending team gets. It's inconsistent.
Also by making the rooms exit-only they can avoid complicated door logic since the door just needs to open when someone's inside. The hypothetical entrance clip doesn't have to be toggled on and off based on which point is active (which could potentially get the door stuck open), or risk someone being able to enter a spawn point behind the points that are being contested.
Also what if there isn't an engineer? How is the team supposed to "just take a teleporter"
some maps have the forward spawn spawns located 1 point behind, so when you capture mid you spawn at your 2nd point, when you capture the enemy teams 2nd point you spawn at mid
i dont see why oneway doors are necessary on maps like these other than to prevent hiding in spawn in comp, but coldfront is in no way a 6s map and its full of oneway spawns, and process IS a 6s map and yet the spawnrooms are exploitable, you can actually hide in a forward spawn even after you lose the point, and ive seen a dude actually do that. as far as i know, this has never caused an issue in an actual 6s match
oneway doors feel like a very aggressive way to prevent engineers from playing the game until either team gets pushed back to last
Tell me why badlands 1st forward spawn is always unlocked then.
And its got a resupply cabinet.
Forward spawns are empty for a reason. They're meant to be light on visuals so that the only thing in your immediate vision is the spawn door. The final spawn rooms on 5cp maps are often just a bare room and don't allow you back inside in order to subconsciously keep gameplay flowing. This is the same reason why maps are more detailed in the playable space but nearly everything out of bounds is empty fields. It can actually hurt readability to have too much detail in spaces, and the source engine has a strict brush and faces limit, so sometimes mappers have to keep less important areas sparse for that reason.
I knew that this benches had something wrong with them. Good to finally know what exactly.
An outrageous fact is the Halloween version of Badwater, bloodwater, has it's side exit available to go through
Great video, im gonna keep in mind all this when making spawnrooms from now on
hello ethosaur, funny seeing you again :]
For engineer: most spawn rooms let you build just outside the door so you can stand inside and refill your metal by either changing a weapon or binding `item_loadpreset 0` to a key and pressing it. It's really trivial to have one direction spawn rooms when the Eureka effect can also teleport you in with ease.
Some maps like process have func_nobuild brushes in the way so you can’t build while holding the door open. The eureka effect is definitely a good way to get around it though
This is simply incredible! I love your videos, the way you find little details in tf2 maps and also tell us some interesting facts really captures me. Good video, LED
I think that locker room props are an important design choice, it allows people to immediately feel "safe". That is because this prop is never used outside of the spawn rooms. Resupply cabinet is another staple of a spawn room, but I think the more the better.
Immersive designs are obviously good, but we shouldn't neglect significance of other symbols (locker rooms) that are connected with the feeling of a spawn room.
8:25 If the other entrances are blocked, as well, this will make spies unable to attack the nests that are always built right outside of the spawn at the second point.
0:34 aww hell nah 💀
rock_005
Another point to make about specifically first spawns for blu in a/d cp and payload maps is that players are gonna spend a while there twiddling their thumbs waiting for setup to end. Its great to have some "player enrichment" for BLU to pass time with. Visuals help, but so do random things like adding stuff for players to jump and climb onto, or physics props to mess around with or even a deathpit for people to hurl themselves into for fun.
the doors are one way on 5cp so that it doesn't make the point easily defendable. If the team defending mid on badlands had constant access to a resup cabinet you would just never be able to retake it lol
2:51 🪨
It is a vague memory, but one of the past favourite spawn rooms had to be from a lost and forgotten custom map call "Koth_basement_v4"
Was made by a L4D2 mapper. The Tf2 maps they made were always very... unique. Basement was one of the most claustrophobic in a serious way maps I've ever seen. They also worked on a 5cp map that was 5 different skyscrapers and a territory control map where the red spawn was a lighthouse directly in the middle. I was their only playtester at the time, but I vividly remember these maps and how you could tell a l4d2 mapper made them, they felt so damn weird. But the l4d2 philosophy of "making saferoom interesting and fun to exist in for long periods of time carried over to the spawn rooms.
I really wish I could tell you where to find them, but it is all lost media. The download link is gone, but you can still find vids of the skyscrapers and the basement.
could you link the videos?
@@georgethakur Actually took me bit to find them, but these were the only ones I could find.
/watch?v=hx3gDOawsQU
/watch?v=DZJfHcHLgo0&list=PL_1E9EkIF5hRRE7OAJhsdlvNPqphvgNhs&ab_channel=OvercookedSushi
@@vectormanforever you weren't kidding about the claustrophobia
I agree, good points. I love the aesthetics of the game and being able to actually leave is important and overlooked.
Particularly what I like is when it shows you how the blu mercs got there, like hardwood as a bunch of crashed jeeps in their starting spawn.
Something that I still find that's important about a spawn room is how long it takes for you to actually leave it. Almost no spawn room suffers from this problem, but Egypt noticeably has you waste much time walking to get anywhere outside the spawn room, specially BLU. Stage 2 is the most noticeable, for if you want to leave through the small door, you have to walk all the way through, and you are not even allowed to build a teleporter. I find this much annoying!
I love your videos. They are well researched and informative along with having plenty of comically exaggerated examples supporting your points. Keep it up!
Thank you!
You should look into the summer map's spawn rooms! Especially Operation Embargo!
3:00 because it's a balancing feature. In 6s there's such a thing as "sacrifice", or just "sac". Basically to avoid stalemate, while pushing into enemy last, one of your player can rush in, get destroyed, switch to sniper to get some space and try to drop enemy medic, or spy to make unexpected play. There's a period after sac, when pushing team has to play 5v6, and it gives a chance for enemy team to countersac or make any play with lower risk. To switch you need to get into spawnroom, you need someone to open a door for you, or sac by yourself. If fowardspawns would be open all time, there won't be any risk at all, becuase enemy team won't know about 5v6. and basically there's no risk at all for pushing team, cuz thier player can get back into fight real quick, instead of waiting "15 seconds to respawn". Also. It will be a nightmare for flank players to play behind enemy lines, when there is fully working resuply room for enemies. There's no cabinet, but resuply bind exists. (also you can build as engie in foward anyway, just don't leave it fully). (no fowardspawns = stalemate, 5cps are stalematy enough in pubs already, cuz pablo.2017 and his friends are building 5 sentries on mid)
Almost sounds like 5cp is an inherently flawed game mode.
@@pepperonipizza8200its flawed for casual.
@@pepperonipizza8200 5cp does not work in casual, because heavy, engie and sniper presents on map all the time, w/o class limits. But in 6v6 it's the most balanced and fun gamemode. Back-n-forward action.
But the walk to the forward spawn is like 7 seconds.
And it will be another 7 seconds back.
It's such a long walk that visiting forward spawn might as well be respawning. You just don't have to deal with the +-5 seconds spawn waves can induce.
The logic is kinda flawed.
By the way, how do people deal with the fact that badlands has a forward spawn that can always be accessed and holds a resupply cabinet?
How does that work?
@@redstonewarrior0152 you counted it wrong: ~6 seconds to sac, 15 to spawn and another 10-15 just to walk to the frontline again (if u want to offclass u swap to spy or sniper, not just to scout or solly). Istead of 7 to rocketjump/run as scout to spawn, and switch.
Badlands is not being played in comp since like 2017 ig.(?) Even tho, some maps has special versions just for comp. Like, granary_pro is more optimized for 6s, has some objects moved/removed, badwater_pro for highlander has 1 more forwardspawns, and new routes, prcoess splash fixed. So when comp tf2 oldheads were playing badlands, they most likely used badlands_pro version of the map w/o this forwardspawn bug and some other features, like fixed splash on spire.
I didn’t know a rant about spawn rooms could be THIS entertaining
Because I *only* play attack/defense, I know some funny details you can do in the spawns of basically every map of the game mode. Here's a big list:
Dustbow: - in the first stage (blue spawn) you can be on top of a lantern in that right corridor with the rail, as soldier, demo, etc..
- in the second stage (red spawn) you can be at the top of both of the resupply cabin as heavy, spy, etc... Just get on the bench and crouch+jump into a metal bar in the wall
- in the last stage, you can do the item above in the blue team!
Mountain Lab: in Blue Spawn, you can be at the top of the "wood frame" of that inner metal door as heavy, spy, etc... The jumps are quite tricky, but you can do partner taunts there, too!
Egypt - in the first stage (blue spawn) you can be at the top of the resupply cabin in a way that looks like you're floating. You can do partner taunts while "floating" too, but he hitbox is quite precise, so people will eventually fail at the taunt, and that's funny!
- in the first stage (red spawn) you can be stuck in a corner by jumping into a torch (using some boxes or the height of the stair). Partner taunts works too and it's good to confuse new players.
in the last stage (blue spawn), in the right door, you can jump into the middle of the pillars to exit the spawn faster while the door is going down. Just saying this because I rarely see other people using this and I think it's useful.
Gravel Pit: in the blue spawn, if you know you're gonna lose the game, you can do a rocket jump / sentry jump to be at the top of a "light pole". Nobody looks up there!
Junction: - At the blue spawn, you can be at the top of both resupply cabin by doing some jumps and strafes. You can further jump to a light switch to be in a even funnier place.
- At the blue spawn, going towards A, there's a computer that is not solid, you can hide there and do partner taunts as well.
- in the red spawn, you can switch loadouts if you are in the base but not in same room as the resupply cabin. I wonder why that happen...
Gorge: - in the first blue spawn, you can be at the top of the resupply cabin as heavy, engi, etc.. And even above the vent for soldier and scout.
- you reach the second blue spawn as pyro with the detonator. Additionally, there's a tree right after the spawn that you can stand on it, as any mobile class. Nobody looks up there, and you can camp the point and the spawn from there.
Mercenary Park: - In the first blue spawn, you be at the top of the resupply cabin as heavy with the GRU. You can also reach the metal bars at the ceiling as pyro with the detonator.
The mad milk 40 seconds in had me take a double take
this was such a great video, good insights and really funny clips and tidbits that complement the narration without distracting from it
Blues second spawn on dustbowl was so bad that they added a drop down on the left because it was really easy to sticky spam the trench and then move into spawn camp. It happened all the time on ps3
Never really considered the spawn rooms until now.
It's great seeing someone else who enjoys looking into this games little map details. This game really is one of the most interesting mp games even from a map design standpoint
Great, informative, entertaining video as always :D
I think it'd be interesting if you made a video on the original six maps that TF2 launched with (2Fort, Dustbowl, Granary, Well, Gravel Pit, Hydro), how they've changed, and what we can learn from analyzing TF2's map design and art style back in 2007 compared to now.
Pretty sure Blu's first spawn on Pier has a hidden disco room through the vent on the back wall. That's a great spawnroom to me!
The first room is brilliant, it's the middle ones that lack, in my opinion
5:25 i feel a skeleton will judge me here
Funnily enough, in Bloodwater, Badwater's Halloween counterpart, the second spawn exit for BLU is actually present, and as expected, it can help a lot in many ways, but it still feels extremely weird to have it, at least for me
Me? I'm a simple man. Just a guy. I think my favorite type of room design is the "safe room"
An employee break room, a spawn room, you name it. Just a small decorated little space where you can take a break from it all, shielded from whatever oposes you, temporarily.
This video is truly for me
9:10 there's a halloween version of badwater that includes a door here and it's soooo much better. I've never understood why its not on the normal version too...
5cp makes sense tbh it would give forward spawners way too much advantages so making them "boring" is intended.
9:12 The door works on the competitive version of the map.
Real talk; What is to stop the community from patching these maps ourselves? Fix all the issues like you had mentioned in Dustbowl video, then host them on a private server? Maybe make a git of development so there is a hub for patch notes and version history.
Some people have done this to a limited extent, but I don't think it's worth the hassle just to play on community servers unless you run a large chain like Uncletopia or something
Nice video. You can't go back into the spawns for 5CP by design. It has an effect on the pace of the game. One interesting exception to this rule is the forward spawn on badlands which DOES let you back in and has a resupply cabinet, but it's off to the side in what is considered the flank. You could argue that it entices certain traffic patterns across the map.
I'm surprised Wutville wasn't mentioned
I didn't mention any of the seasonal maps
“It’s an eternity in there.” - emesis blue
the spawn room? its eternity in there.
Would be interested to see remakes of these maps' spawns in a competition or something
It would be!
Tbf a lot of the competitive pro versions of maps have some of these changes, main one coming to mind is the second exit added to the second blu spawn on badwater
I think Dustbowl's spawn rooms are also really great aesthetically. It really shows the early-tf2 era art-style that they talked about in the developer commentary, where at the start you see more "natural" settings with BLU and RED trying to disguise their operations but as you go further the mask starts slipping off... and you see in dustbowl as it gets more and more industrialized. In this case the spawn rooms having giant missiles underneath them.
Also, Hydro's spawn room underneath the satelite dish is very unique. It's a long, round corridor that doesn't ressemble anything else in any other map. Even though it's a bit barren, it gets points for being unique.
I love little topics like these and I think that map making in source engine is an art form, I wouldn't mind more videos talking about small and overlooked details like these.
I think the spawn rooms at 6:03 are just fronts, like how RED is disguised as a bakery in Expiration Date
I'm not a tf2 mapper, but this video made me interested in making spawn rooms, but not just for maps, but just on their own tbh
Mountain Lab and Gravel Pit are so comfy
I don't get the hate for koth_king's spawn room when it seems to check off at least 2/3 of the most important features, multiple exits and a good level of immersion. It has three exits, the large centre that you can push out of, as well as two flanks, one leading to a higher level, and one leading to a faster route to the objective. As for immersion, it's a warehouse in a backstreet in Hong Kong that's serving as a false front for a gambling den, as you can see in the viewing area in the back, it also uses much of the same assets as the rest of the level. Calling it bad immersion because it looks like a warehouse when it's meant to be a warehouse is dumb, especially when there are so many maps with spawn rooms that are just four walls and a door.
I love spawn buildings in Planetside 2. It's a design challenge to accomodate a 4v10 fight and 40v40 at the same space, and give protection from all kinds of vehicles. They are almost open, giving view advantage to defending side. And lack of details whisper: don't sit in the spawn room, go out!
Tech plant spawn building has an underground pipe system, which gives access to an entire base. But it's also sort of hidden out of normal sight when you run out, which makes the normal way out more popular. Isamir underground bunker facilites have many temporary spawns; lighted arrows on the floor to show the way; ability for attackers to shut the main doors, so defenders are forced to take the vents out. Interesting base to play on.
The vehicle protection part usually doesn't work, and I'd argue all other locations don't have much more detail than the spawns
Ngl, desperately fighting your way out of your spawn room as the timer until the facility is capped ticks down truly is a feeling everyone should experience once. Espetially if they make it.
0:34 💀
while i do agree that aesthetically egypts spawn rooms are great they’re some of my least favourite spawns because of how unnecessarily large they are on some stages it’s like a ten+ second walk out of spawn and it always really annoys me
That's a fair point. I brought them up specifically for their immersion factor. Functionally, they're not among the best.
2fort has that funny hole on the floor as a spawn """door""" for one of the spawns. It's just hilarious to drop behind an enemy passing by and backstabbing him 😂
the moan at the "show love" mention 💀
My favorite spawn rooms are the ones in Team Fortress Classic, because they have security turrets. You never know what kind of exploits people will come up with.
My favorite has got to be the player destruction map that came last smissmas. The spawnrooms there are gorgeous and interesting.
pd_galleria
also the announcer is priceless
this was a really fun video!!! i was thinking about this topic the other day with how some of borneo's spawnrooms look, and how you could add detail to then in order to flesh them out and give life into otherwise boring rooms. i imagine some spawns are rather baren due to either optimisation or then being added late into development, or even afterwards during playtesting, thus not receiving as much attention. even some very old maps have interesting layout changes (dustbowl didn't have the dropdown on stage 2 blue spawn and the stairs right outside red's shortcut on stage 3, hence why they sometimes feel a lil strange), so i imagine it'd be a pain to decorate an entire spawn only to rearrange everything or scrap it entirely.
the scout at the end lol
🥛
9:51 Thie is incorrect. BLU's Second spawn area only had 1 path (which leads to the 2 gates that opens to the outside) to the battlements back then, and near RED's Exit area to BLU'S Final spawn area there was no stairs leading up to the first bridged area.
Those changes happened in 2007
@@LEDs You said "since it's launch back in 2007". I just wanted to clarify it
What 7 years with no updates does to man
A spawn room I have trouble with is 2fort.
One spawn room has two exits: one that leads directly to battlements (which is easily spammable), and the other drops you near your front door (which is at least usually protected by a sentry). This spawn room is okay, but the exit onto battlements could use a window on the door. The drop into hallway is fine as it is, but could maybe be gated off somehow, so opposing demos can't toss pipes up there so easily.
The other spawnroom is problematic. One exit, no windows, and probably one of the most commonly spawntrapped doors in the entire game. Any class can spawn trap here. No height advantage, no means to block projectiles, and being trapped here even allows the opposing team to very easily go to your intel. I've seen an entire team of 12+ players get shut down by one phlog pyro, or one demo, or one heavy+medic combo for upwards of 5 or 6 minutes at a time, which is more than enough for the other team to win the entire game (unless you're on something like skial 24/7 2fort where there are no winners).
I really love the trippy stuff bhind the one blue spawnroom on the Vutville
2:56
I got nothing for this video except for this part.
You can still change equipment, just don't move, because it will force you to respawn automatically.
9:07 but because this spawn is only available after you've capped the second to last point, your team has so much control over the area in between the next point and spawn that if someone is spawncamping they had to do a major flank
Although, not an official map, Bricktown became one of my favourite maps just because of the spawn room.
Idk if anyone said, but that door on badwater that lines up with spawn but isn’t accessible is actually part of the halloween map bloodwater. They did use it, but only for the Halloween version
Yeah a couple people mentioned it
HANNKKK HANKKK, DON'T ABBREVIATE CONTROL POINTS, HANNNNNNKKKKKK
You know the community went insane after no updates when youtubers make 10 minutes video about spawnrooms
please do make a case study video on what makes a good map on tf2, no ones stopping you, in fact im begging you, PLEEEEASE
I feel like the forward spawns in Badlands are also tailored to their environment (for the most part). It's in middle of no where so it make sense for it to not have any tech and just be an empty ass room. And I'm purely talking aesthetics, im sure there are balance reasons too.
And one more thing, if the map maker made every single spawn point in a map, as opposed to usually focusing on making the last point special looking, then that would destroy the charm I feel like. If everything was designed to feel special then nothing would...
Curse you for telling me about the Badwater benches. That's a literal cognitohazard.
I agree with the window thing, and the resupply cabinet.
If the only players which can take advantage of a respawn room are those with binds which will automatically restock them or change loadouts, then that's a failure on the map designers' part.
I'm glad someone finally brought more attention to these horrible spawns
0:34 Surprised that no one talked about this
Edit: I stand corrected lmao
Those bits left as hints for you to string a plot together like means to get to the map or why the objective is what it is show why VALVe today, fresh greens, are basically afraid to even touch TF2.
It's the best of the best.
The Halloween version of Badwater has a second door on blu's second spawn point
I like your videos about tf2 maps and mechanics, even if its just walls or doors
the reason many 5cp maps have one way forward spawns is because quite frankly most of them are not for casual mode and are not balanced around casual mode. having a forward resupply cabinet that you're able to freely enter whenever you want is honestly broken in some cases to the point where loadout binds that let you bypass the lack of cabinet are actually a bit contentious in comp. also not having forward spawns would be an absolute nightmare for 5cp and wouldn't work with the gamemode. its supposed to be a back and forth but with no forward spawns if a team wins one team fight they can pretty easily steamroll from their last all the way to the enemy's last
3:12 I think you overlooked the approach that I personally use with one-way (and no-restock) spawnrooms, - having a loadout change keybind will respawn you with full ammo, so as long as you can build within reach from spawn entrance, lack of supply/door is not a problem.
It is very much a non-obvious and stupid mechanic though.
Some spawnrooms have func_nobuild brushes surrounding the bottom of the door, making this impossible.
If I recall correctly, back in the day, changing class triggered a suicide anyway (no swift switch if you're in the spawn room area), so it's only the resources or loadout change issue for these old 5-CP maps. Teleporters are also optional there due to how important spawn-to-point timings being adjusted regardless of what the players do as the contested point changes is.
degrootkeeps pretty good too
I’m right there with ya on the 5cp “one way door” thing. A lot of maps have that and whenever I’m playing engie I haaaaaate it. I’d almost always rather we stuck with the second spawn and just let me set up my tele there than have a more forward spawn my team likely won’t be able to hold for very long and is much harder to set up a tele on
very eye catching thumbnail, good job
I do like Blu's spawn on Mountain Lab, there is also a little bit of story telling, at least to me as you see the boats in the back, that is where Blu probably came from, I do like it when maps have a little bit of story telling in it, even in the starting spawn rooms, to show where the teams came from, especially when it comes to something like attack defend
Story is always important