Evangelical and Episcopal Priest Talk Theology at a Liberal, Mainline Episcopal Church
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ส.ค. 2024
- I couldn't be more grateful to Reverend Mark of St. Mark's Episcopal Church in Saint Louis, Missouri for welcoming me and having honest, heartfelt conversation about the Episcopal Church and what he believes.
Here's a link to the first video at this church: • Evangelical Visits a L...
Also thanks to everyone who supports the channel at / tmbh
Just FYI, the official position of The Episcopal Church is that one must be baptized and repentant of one's sins before receiving Holy Communion. This canon is rarely, if ever, enforced, but it's still the official position of The Episcopal Church.
A rule, by definition, is not a rule if it is not enforced.
One wonders why this would be controversial. Why would someone who is not baptized want communion? Seems like if they want communion then they want to be baptized, which is easy to fix.
@@zestotemp because it is a false action to suggest unity. Regardless of denomination- no one should present them selves for communion without agreement to the doctrines held by the respective church.
@@patrickdean4853Exactly, one wouldn’t go to someone’s house and have dinner with them if they didn’t get along or didn’t agree on core principles.
Enforced by some parishes, though unfortunately, the churches I’ve been to have explicitly denied it. Yet another reason I left TEC
Wow! What an inspiring video!
-Matt's mom
As a pastor in a more conservative context, I deeply appreciate you reaching across the spectrum and building bridges of conversation! I think that's a big way we can love each other. I don't need to agree to respect and love. Thanks for modeling the way!
Also just a plug here. You should do an LDS church next!
@@dylanoshell93that could be painful to watch … it would be difficult for anyone with Matt’s knowledge of Christianity to not, if even accidentally,
Obliquely, suggest that LDS is not a form of Christianity by even the slightest definition.
LDS is not Christian. I don't care if it's offensive to say that. Truth is far more important than saving someone's feelings.
@@calebstroup6917 just shows you that there are plenty of suckers out there to be had.
@@calebstroup6917 That might be true! But all the more I think that's why @MattWhitmanTMBH makes these videos. To clarify and understand. I'm just hoping we can do that :)
I'm Episcopalian. I was raised in an evangelical Southern Baptist church. The thing that landed me in the Episcopal Church was frankly the stifling "certainty" with which I was raised. I just didn't compute to me that people could have *that* much certainty about a bunch of really mysterious things, I didn't trust their reasoning to get to the answers, and I REALLY didn't appreciate being told to be quiet when I asked hard questions. In the Episcopal Church people aren't afraid to say "I don't know the answer to that," and it's up to *YOU* to dig into Scripture, consider time and place of things said and done in Scripture, consider how those should or should not affect you in modern life. That was refreshing, because my faith no longer felt like such a straight jacket where I had to just agree and do what the pastor said, even if he was making a hash of Scripture in his long winded sermon.
I sometimes hear people say "but you're not Bible believing," but frankly that's an accusatory lie that I find rather rude and uninformed. Of *course* we're Bible believing. We read and reflect on it *every single service* , literally following a lectionary that ties Old Testament readings, Psalm readings, New Testament Epistles, and Gospel together week by week (not many Evangelical pastors are that thorough in my experience). Scripture is VERY important to us. What we *don't* do however, is pretend like Scripture has no context, or is some simplistic rule book. We acknowledge how it came into being, and we take that into account in how we process it. We know that the canon of Scripture itself was decided *by ecumenical council*. Some things were considered authoritative, some were considered historical but not authoritative, and some things we simple left out because their origin was doubted. To quote Dr. Don Carson: "A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text." In other words, you can make Scripture say ANYTHING if you ignore context, and that is a kind of churchmanship to which we do not prescribe.
Well said, my friend...well said. That is what drew me to the Episcopal church, too. The beauty, the richness of scripture, tradition, the history, the freedom to reason and the freedom (liberality) to explore deeply bathed in a treasure trove of prayer. Definitely not a faith community that exists in an echo chamber of theology....or "persuasion". Great comments...appreciated!
I too was brought up in an evangelical Baptist Church. I became an Episcopalian when I was 25. I have never looked back.
I'm Anglican. I lean conservative. I've avoided more confessional churches for precisely because of that reason. We are fallible, including our priests and bishops. While we must agree on the essentials of the Christian faith, I am suspicious of any church claiming they have the right answer to every question.
Love my Episcopal church!
@Calphool222. You can find it rude if you like. Completely up to you. But it’s not controversial to say that Episcopalians believe what they want to believe in Scripture and disregard the rest. It’s not really up for debate. Most Episcopalians I know wouldn’t bother to contest it, and frankly, they tend to find wholesale acceptance of the Bible (as divinely inspired) distasteful.
Way back in the 1920’s, Princeton’s J. Gresham Machen observed that Christian Liberalism (Mainline Protestantism) was, in truth, an entirely different religion:
“The Christian religion . . . is certainly not the religion of the modern liberal Church, but a message of divine grace, almost forgotten now, as it was in the middle ages, but destined to burst forth once more in God’s good time, in a new Reformation, and bring light and freedom to mankind.”
The Mainlines have only veered farther and farther left in the past 100 years. There is no longer any resemblance to historic Christianity. Why anyone would try to deny that is beyond me.
I grew up in the ELCA (a liberal Lutheran denomination). I had some of the sweet old church ladies in Bible Study or Sunday School from time to time. Their personal theology, such as it was, had far more in common with Hinduism than Christianity.
I was also on the HOBD listserve (House of Bishops and Deacons) during the period when the nascent ACNA was pulling away from the TEC. These elites, in the hierarchy of the Episcopal Church, reminded me far more of worldly politicians than leaders of the congregations of Christ. They mercilessly mocked their more conservative co-religionists without a hint of compassion for the parishes whose property they were basically stealing.
It is contrary to charity to knowingly allow or encourage someone to ‘eat and drink condemnation’ upon themselves.
My thoughts exactly.
Yes
I love that you asked him about "God's dream" because that caught my ear when he said it too! Well done and very respectful. Thank you!
You should read the book he recommended by Verna Dozier! It’s incredible.
To be honest, I was expecting something more controversial and heated. I found this as a really great and honest conversation, and you can tell that father Mark is a pastor who has love for the people he’s been called to serve
Yeah, besides the several red flags
I feel the same way about it. I thought it was going to much different but with Matt's nice guy nature and style of interviewing it gives off a very different vibe. Really a natural interviewer.
What you can tell immediately is that Mark is a homosexual and, without much effort, deduce his disordered theology is the consequence of his disordered sexuality. 100%
In watching this video, and several others that I have enjoyed in this series, I am reminded of the phrase that I heard in college.
"As Christians we are called to unity, not uniformity."
It is in your conversations with countless diverse expressions of worship and experiences of relationship with God that I have begun to see how "not uniform" we are, and how there can still be a recognition of brotherhood and sisterhood across the denominational divide.
Thanks Matt, for these insightful conversations.
Im crying watching this. Im directly between these two pastors. And it is so great seeing them love one another. This is what Our lord and savior the big homie Jesus wants to see[ in my humble opinion] thank you matt . We have never meet but you have helped me and my family so much since i discovered your channel. Cant express how much the kingdom needs these dialoges on both sides. God bless you bro. And much love to all the homies in the chat .
Matt you always do such a good job of being courteous and gracious even when there are disagreements. Thanks for being willing to just ask questions and try to understand the position. I would love to see a follow up video as you continue to process through this.
Well done, Matt. Thank you so much for being with those at the forefront of courteous, heartfelt ecumenical discourse. The peace of Christ be with you always.
The "official" position of the Episcopal Church is baptism, then communion, but a lot of Episcopalians side with Fr. Mark. It's what I find is the "beauty" of the Episcopal Church is we disagree with each other but chose to worship together and go out to do Jesus' work in the world. IF someone receiving communion without baptism matters to God, he will sort it out. God put me in this world to work on me, not to police others in their beliefs (actions that harm others, yes, but beliefs, no).
It’s just contradictory to what communion actually IS. It requires being in communion with one another in that community including the official teachings of that denomination. That’s an issue for the leaders, they are held biblically to a higher standard in how they teach their flock.
Their communion without baptism would not be efficacious because they are not in communion with their church.
There's a few sorts of churches that were already made with this sort of vision in mind. The Disciples of Christ and Churches of Christ are very non-creedal, having only obedience through baptism and Lordship of Jesus as doctrines.
Makes me feel that many mainline churches are perhaps oversaturating the market for this type of "follow the spirit, not necessarily the letter of the law" type of Protestantism.
The main virtue of Anglicanism is that there is an offer of a liturgical and hierarchical structure, which may offer a form of redress to the congregation (though not the pastor!).
That’s a problem in a Creedal Faith when many don’t believe the Creed but cross their fingers and agree to disagree. Cognitive dissonance
Say it louder!
God bless, Fr. Mark. He's truly a caring soul. The fact that he could say that not everyone belongs here...but belongs somewhere and I'm going to help you find the place where you could be happy (even if it isn't with us) is truly a reflection of the love of Christ. This is a prime example of a tree can be known by the fruit it bears...and this is the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Matt, there is something very comforting about watching a man doing exactly what God has planned for him. Please keep following the path that you are seeing laid out.
These conversations always cause me to take a closer look at what I think I believe about God and my relationship to Him and where that belief comes from - through tradition, relationship, or clear Biblical parameters. I think if we are honest with ourselves, much of what we believe is rooted more in tradition that what we might like to admit. This content challenges that in my own life and I believe leads me toward more spiritual maturity. Thank you.
He had me until "Hitler IS in heaven." I could understand "Hitler might be in heaven" for we cannot be the ones who stand in ultimate judgment. But to make the declaration that all go to heaven because of the work of Christ on the cross, then there would be no reason for all of the teachings of "I am the narrow gate."
Well said. This guy is a total shister.
My guess is he likes the trappings of an Episcopal church more than a Unitarian Universalist one
Narrow is the road and cramped the path leading off into salvation, and few are finding it.
He does follow it up by saying that God has done some kind of restorative justice, at some point in 'time' (not our time). That makes it less wild, I think
Christ is the narrow gate, the only way we may all enter. We can not enter in on our own, He is the way for all people. There is nothing contradictory there.
I’m an Episcopalian but grew up in the SBC. I believe in Holy Scripture and the traditions of the church. Salvation is by faith in Christ. You and I are different in our understanding of the particulars, and those particulars matter, but I respect the differences between us. I also respect you and your faith. Thanks for this video.
The problem is, Protestant pastors don't understand biblical history 😂
I don't see any Protestant ministers from the Anglican or Episcopal churches being invited on famous podcasts like Jordan Peterson, and others 😂
Matt…. I feel like you’re the best friend I’ve never met. You and Destin are incredible people and I feel very fortunate for having found both of you. Thanks.
I 100% agree - I was so happy to discover that Matt and Destin were buds.
I must have watched a different video to you Matt. If there were moments of 'friction' - they must have happened and been contained within your inner-dialogue. You came across (to use your own word) very collegial. There is something to be said of Reverend Mark's position to leave the contentious, complex and vexing issues to God, trusting in the Almighty to accomplish His plan (dream). This takes tremendous humility and an understanding of one's own complete inadequacy. For we humans (to use old terminology) love to stride into battle wielding our own axes and swords, usually with catastrophic results. I try to remind myself that the Lord's sharpest edge was reserved for those self-righteous and ungracious. St. Mark's Episcopal Church looks to be a safe and welcoming environment, where the Holy Spirit is left to do His work.
And this Church is a place where you can believe whatever you like for whatever reason you dream up. The clergy simply serves to rubber stamp whatever notions someone believes, regardless of objective facts get in the way. In some respects, this is the ultimate manifestation of the Protestant tradition- each person is their own priest and interpreter of scripture. In this case, the “priest” is a homosexual who is “married” to another man, wearing the clothing of a minister, saying absolutely nothing of substance. He is a false friend of Christ, a deceiver and a blind spiritual guide.
@@patrickdean4853 - "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
@@grahammccallum9592 not protesting, simply point out salient, factual points.
As much as I can appreciate the attempt at humility by this man - a desire to hear people where they are and to work with whatever they feel they need - doesn't God have a place we must be attentive to, as well? If He really works, oughtn't we be attentive to what He's actually working on?
I myself want to try to coordinate with the Christians of all ages and all countries, insofar as they have coordination and cohesion. I cannot stay in the present; I have to find giants who stand above the mire of present opinions.
Another great interview that keeps me thinking. Thanks for your work, Matt (and everyone else making this possible)!
I have appreciated this conversation very much. Matt, thank you for doing these videos.
I think the most powerful parts of this video were “my faith convinces me to…” and “I don’t know” with a comfortable silence following.
I look forward to your videos! You somehow make me examine my own faith and how I worship. I appreciate what you do!
Thanks Matt!
As a catholic I find it hard to understand a christian that does not want to persuade anyone of their beliefs. Either you found the missing coin and communicate your joy to neighbors or you just don't really care about coins. If the Good News is just MY good news, why should I announce it to all creatures?
As an Episcopalian that converted from a Baptist tradition, I often joke that I evangelize now more than as an evangelical. I love my faith tradition, and I do want to share it with any and all. However, I don’t want to persuade people to my tradition just because I think it’s the best. They have to determine what’s best for them, they are the expert on themself-not me. And as much as I want people to join my tradition, I know that it’s not the right fit for all. I personally believe that God meets people through various traditions that meets them best in those moments. Episcopalian tradition won’t meet the needs of every person. The baptist church won’t meet the needs of every person. And the Catholic Church won’t meet the needs of every person. We offer the goodness we have, and if it’s not the best fit for you to connect with God at that time, then why would I try to persuade you into that?
@@mkmoore8999 I think you are totally missing the point. I don't believe in proselytizing, but I certainly believe in evangelizing. I believe that Jesus Christ is the answer to the human condition. I believe he is the incarnation of what God wants for humanity. I do not need to make a baptist a catholic or vice versa. But I consider catholicism has the best articulation and responds more fully to the Gospel. I absolutely want to persuade non christians and the world that the Gospel is the way forward towards God's dream for humanity.
It's probably just because persuade/persuasion sounds kinda sneaky/tricky.
Encourage is probably a better word, or encouraging change through example.
And this is one of the main things that caused me to leave Christianity as a teen. The idea that I need to go to people of other religions and tell them they are wrong and try to convert them to my beliefs. It just feels dirty. If a friend wants to know about my religion I will tell them, if not it doesn't make me any less of a Christian. As a Catholic I fully understand you will disagree and that's okay.
What you’re doing is so important! I’m a lifelong Catholic and when I moved to Oklahoma someone asked me if I’m saved, and I had never heard that in my life. When I told him I didn’t know what that means he laughed at me 😂 it’s like it never occurred to him that not everyone uses his faith’s vocabulary. Although I have to admit I was pretty dumb for not figuring it out by context 😂
You are saved the Bible way. Through baptism you were saved. If you fall away you can as you know reconcile yourself back to God through the Sacrament of Confession.
He thinks “saved” means for all time when “saved” is actually past tense so they got issues of their own
@@catholicguy1073ask 10 Protestants what “saved” means and get 10 different answers😵💫😂
FWIW, Catholics talk about being “saved”.
If no one in your church talks about being saved that’s kind of a red flag.
@@patrickdean4853 Yep
It’s funny- I remember moving to the mountains of NC for two years and having these same exchanges. Most folks were some form of primitive Baptist. I heard several versions of what “saved” meant … none really made sense to me as a Catholic. It went like this:
A. Saved once, saved forever
B. Saved, backslid, resaved
C. Thought you were saved, but were actually not
D. You are only saved if God preordains it, nothing you can do about it.
Love these videos. Keep them coming
Love your work, Matt, as always. Thankful for my Catholic faith. Offering a prayer that all lost souls find salvation through our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Great video. I came out of my chair a time or two but grateful for the perspective and repectful dialogue.
Appreciate this as always Matt, especially as through the course of this video series (unrelated) I migrated from a calvinist Presbyterian to a Roman Catholic, and I've loved seeing your perspective on all of our Christian brothers and sisters. You have a true gift of grace and charity, keep it up, these are some of my favorite videos on the internet
Matt, I love your "church visits" and appreciate the sincerity and openness of the conversations. Keep up the great work.
Loved the video as always. I wonder Matt if you’ve thought of doing this kind of thing in the UK? I’d love to see you engage with someone over the Church of England. It’d combine your appreciation for Anglicanism with some additional questions around being a state church. We’re also going through a church-wide conversation about living in communion and difference which your take on would be great. I even know a priest theologian or two who would take you up on a conversation!
That gets a huge vote from me! Maybe also with a church here in the evangelical Protestant tradition which, from here in the UK, feels very different in character (and dare I say political colour) from the picture we get of the American Evangelical churches.
thumbs up to that, would be cool to see him travel to other countries (or maybe just a good zoom call) to talk with folks of other denominations from around the world.
Respect to this man, he sounds just as I remember my grandparents' Episcopal friends sounding - wanting to hold onto a certain reverent feeling about Christianity, but forgetting its actual power. I wanted to break into the conversation at the point where you asked about justice and he replied "I don't know." As much as people find substitutionary atonement backwards and uncool, at least it provides an answer regarding justice beyond "I don't know"!!! Anyway, the fact that you didn't interrupt or correct as I would have just shows that you're a much better person to be conducting these interviews than I would be.
As an aside, in the liturgy of the Episcopal Church, substitutionary atonement actually does has theological representation. It simply stands among a mosaic of multiple atonement theories which are knit together into a marginally bigger speck of all the things going on when Jesus died on the cross.
Fascinating video - you were both walking a respectful tightrope which was a help for us all to model people disagreeing well. thanks to you both.
Matt, I just gotta say your sweater game has really been on point these last two videos dude! lol
I appreciate the respect that you treat those who believe things differently than you to. So many people are polarized in a specific direction, probably well over 20,000 directions and do not know how to agree to disagree. Within my close family, these disagreements occur. Within a group of ladies formed to make an impact with the marginalized, will disagree. Disagreements are good, disrespect is not good. I am a Catholic and the hateful comments I see annd hear is appalling. I recognize that there are ministers who spend their time at the pulpit telling many mistruths about Catholics, the Catholic Religion and Catholic Faith. I find it sad, I recognize it as gossip and slander and it is unfortunate. We are not judge and jury and we should love all of our brothers. This includes our Muslim brothers, our Jewish brothers and sisters all, and we should adore our Christian brothers and sisters. I love how the individuals you interview are so sure in their faith that they can confidently answer any question, even troublesome questions, thoroughly and not defensively. I am NOT an Evangelical Protestant and previously believed I did not like them, in spite of everything I said before. The truth (as I see it) is that amidst all of the different faiths who worship GOD, there will be sheisters and cheats. Swindlers and liars, because we are all sinful humans and those people are everywhere. But, I follow your channel and watch most every video when I am notified that you have put one up. You have eliminated quite a few of my prejudices, and I thank you, sincerely, for that. Would that we all treated those we disagree with with the respect you give. Thank you.
Very kindly said. And transparent and is appreciated. I'm glad his videos have had you see those positive positions. I myself have every denomination in my family, and we all strive to get along and love eachother as Christ loves us. I like how you said, there are shiesters in every bunch, but you can see Jesus is the hearts of the ones who heartily follow Him and lead it that. Former Catholic, Non-denominational now, but love the richness of my tradional brothers and sisters, and truly God has been stirring my heart for some time and I desire the Liturgy, Creeds, and other things so much. I guess I'll say undecided right now. Comments like yours are what we need. Open and loving, honest and extending a hand. A bridge. Thanks brother or sister. God bless
Matt, it's so cool being able to see someone from a very similar faith tradition to my own interact with other Christians. You do awesome work and I know a lot of us get a ton out of watching these videos.
Thank you for describing so succinctly, the fragmentation of society, and for your optimism. I feel the fragmentation deeply and it disturbs me. I too hope we have reached the summit. This conversation, I think went well because you both signal to each other that you hold one another in esteem. Thank you for your work.
Well done Matt. I appreciate all you do. The world is a better place because of what you do. Cheers!
Man this channel is fascinating! I had no idea this is what Episcopalians believe! I joined ACNA this year after growing up Presbyterian and I had no clue how different Episcopal beliefs were. I love this series so much!
What a lovely conversation. Thanks for giving us an example of how to be generous, kind, and caring to someone who (at the face) we may not agree with.
Matt your approach and the interview itself was sooooo educational!! He was so forthright in his explanations. While I hold to way different positions on the topics covered, He did a great job of verbally expressing the "statement of belief" as we call that for our small non-denominational bible chapel. We have a written statement of belief which as the lay pastor I get into the hands of all visitors. People should seek out this information and carefully consider these points, for as was stated---its way better for all involved not to force a square peg into a round hole (or to change the shape of the hole). I appreciate the work you put into your channel!
Thank you for the very interesting video! I really enjoy the conversations you gave with such a diverse group of faith leaders!
As I wrestle with my own faith, seeing these many expressions of faith warms my heart.
Seeing folks criticize this expression of belief reminds me that a wise man said "don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya". Sounds like he is not asking for your approval, and he would be happy to find you a different church. As a liberal christian, he is not going to tick orthodox boxes.
37:27 It took me a sec to realize but your question about "Is there any justice for what Hitler did?" was something that would have been a softball to most expressions of the Christian faith.
Bravo Matt! I watch your vlogs because you are willing to "push out the walls of the box" so that your viewers can watch and learn about many (20,000) perspectives of Christianity, and I call that mystery. Some of the conversations you have with faith leaders may not be for those who are watching now, but for those who may be listening. Keep it up, explore, play with the ideas of Church, redemption, forgiveness, that don't necessarily jive with yours or those who may be watching. We can agree to disagree in order to create conversation.
Excellent video Matt! Your older Episcopal/Anglican videos helped me find my current church and build my faith.
Really great interview here. I appreciate the respect and decency shown on both sides. I'm in favor of a follow up to game this out further.
I think this is a great video. I attend an Episcopal Church that leans much more conservative collectively but we certainly have members with different viewpoints socially, politcally & theologically. Enjoyed this dialogue very much !
I think that was a very civil and totally fascinating conversation. His words and thoughts are very familiar to me as my spiritual journey moved from Catholicism to Orthodoxy to the Episcopal church to Methodism and finally to the Anglican Church North America. I have a soft spot for the Episcopalians though because I liked their old slogans "Wherever you are in your faith journey, you are welcome here" and "we don't ask you to check your mind in at the door." Well, for someone who was struggling with his faith, those words were great comfort. i am not sure if he always expressed what he was saying so clearly, but I got the point, and I couldn't help but think of how in some odd way the approach he described was like Aimee Semple Mcpherson reaching out to anyone who felt called to God.
Of course, the great upheavel happend around then, and that let to a lot of priests politicking from the pulpit, and that was a turnoff, which is why I went on to Methodism, only to find that they were oddly more divided, and thus landed back in Book of Common Prayer territoy in the Anglican church.
Anyway, very well done. Good discussion.
This was really fascinating--as are all of your videos I've seen. My wife was raised Episcopal and myself SBC. I did some candid videos recently with some LDS (Mormon) folks kind of random and I feel like they were very honest and open about their beliefs--seems like most people are. I really do believe in this work folks like you are doing. Keep it up!
I love how you let people make their own points, which often sound well reasoned out from their perspective.
If we want more unity, anywhere in life, we need more of these conversations.
I am completely against unity of any kind with this sort of heresy
Great series. Keep it up
I grew up in a conservative evangelical church mega church environment. I’ve been totally disillusioned with the path many have taken in that environment - I have been researching the episcopal church over the past year and really appreciate these videos. Thank you!
Thank you for being willing to listen to other perspectives. We need more people willing to listen to other Christians and people of other faiths while remaining respectful.
Matt you are such a congenial person. You handled this interview very well. And I must add that the priest did a fine job and gave an honesty testimony about his church and his own person.
37:08 wait what? Hitler is in heaven? Did he ever turn to Christ? Apparently "God's forgiveness knows no bounds" means Universalism.
He was raised by at least nominally Catholic parents. “All who are baptized are saved” is a very strange position that I don’t think anyone holds, but he could be coming from that angle.
Excellent Matt. Thank you!
Whoa, I have enjoyed the look into different churches. This one takes the cake for controversy, and I am not really sure how to respond. I am so thankful for God's call on my life which includes reverence for and adherence to His written word and not just to an example found in Christ Jesus while on this earth. I cherish the words in 1 John 5:13, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life." And 1John 5:20, "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." Keep up the good work !!
My theological heroes are Thomas Cranmer, John Jewel, Nicolas Ridley, the Caroline Divines, EB Pusey, and many other old Anglicans. They would be horrified if they saw what happened to our Church. “And we thought the Romanists were bad.” It saddens me every day.
Love this!
Wow, what an interesting conversation! For my personality and fundamentalist Bible thumping background forced onto me since Preschool, Episcopal Churches are very appealing. I love Jesus, and want to express His love with my life. Church life can be SO complex. Fire and brimstone kind of preaching, being spoon fed the Word, etc. I like using my mind with my faith, and I feel that Episcopalians do too. Excited to not give up on Jesus as a whole! Thanks for making this!
Would love to see you visit:
- a Western Rite Orthodox Church - St Patrick's Orthodox Church in Bealeton, Virginia would be super interesting;
- an Ordinariate Use Catholic Church - the Cathedral of Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston, Texas would be super interesting; and
- some monasteries.
I really like this series because it role models Christian charity and love without overt condemnatory and toxic judgmentalism. Great series and these two videos.
As nice a guy as Rev. Mark comes across as, I'm a bit saddened that he couldn't give Matt a clear definition of what it means to be saved or not.
When Peter was asked, he gave the answer the Holy Spirit provided him.
@@jldrumm what scripture do you refer to?
@@anthonywhitney634 Search for it and you'll find it.
That’s OK, the Protestants can’t give you a straight answer either … that why there are 35,000 Protestant denominations.
What wasn’t clear? I thought that he answered very well, that it is not up to him.
Wow, this guy is wild. I don’t understand being a minister and not being convinced that heaven is even real or worth being in. Even setting aside all the other disagreements I have with his theology, not caring about heaven or it’s reality is wild. He comes off as an atheist/humanist that thinks Jesus was a cool dude.
God’s dream is language I’m not sure I’d heard before. Thanks for following up with him on that!
I was waiting for the tension but it did not happen. Great interview!
Just because Scripture doesn’t tell us of the disciples being baptized, that doesn’t mean they weren’t. Christ clearly tells his apostles that baptism is a fundamental part of becoming his disciple, so it would be unfitting for them not to have been.
As a Catholic, I enjoy your videos. I have been watching praying for your ministry. Church unity is important. I hope you do more videos on Roman Catholicism
Please do a follow up video! Great video
TEC also still has page 409 of the BCP which explains how a priest can deny Communion to congregants. My wife and I attended an Episcopal Church where this was invoked.
This is a reasonably good primer on 'broad church' Episcopal theology, along with the earlier video. The conversation touched on "lex orandi lex credendi" with the discussion of communion and persuasion, and I believe the earlier video talked about the "three wheels" or "three legs". I wish that there had been more discussion of Incarnational Theology in regards to salvation and the historical commonality of universalism, as theologically liberal Episcopalians tend to focus on these things. But yes, what I see here is rather common to even my small church in Ohio. I wish he had followed your question about justice with a better answer, as human ideas about justice (usually equaling punishment) are not the same as God's justice (which is beyond human understanding). There can be an obsession with personal salvation in many Christian communities, but my position (and the position of many of my brothers and sisters) is that the grace of God has worked out salvation; it is our role to trust in and follow Jesus, to love God and neighbor, to repent our failings, and not to make ourselves anxious over it because God is love and God's forgiveness is so much greater than we can conceive. As the Episcopal Church collect for Good Friday says, "let the whole world see and know that things which were cast down are being raised up, and things which had grown old are being made new, and that all things are being brought to their perfection by him through all things were made, Jesus Christ our Lord". Amen.
On the topic of sin at 35:30 in the vid--.I am an Episcopalian and can attest that every Sunday we as a church together and in unison recite a confession of sin...and for those of us who are in the habit of Morning and/or Evening Prayer (a daily at home practice of reading scripture and prayers in the Book of Common Prayer) repeat this prayer asking for forgiveness of sin--the 3 letter word that seems to be a trigger for some. I am not sure what Reverend Mark was referring in this conversation...but this is the prayer said right before Eucharist: "Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen." Thanks for all you do, Matt!
Catholics have a very similar prayer. I am guessing that your views are closer to the view of the average Catholic in the United States today than to Rev. Mark.
To my understanding, he was not diminishing sin. Rather the response to sin being different than many evangelical positions. He seemed to hold that our sin, even amongst the greatest sinners, is finite. Yet the forgiveness of God is infinite.I don’t disagree with this position. He says that it’s just not the focus of his sermons, not that he doesn’t ever speak to the need of repentance.
Normally an Episcopal Priest presents a sermon of under 10 minutes which is a homily based upon the Lectionary...the Gospel reading so of course most Priests would not talk much on any singular topic...including 'sin'...so I found his response didn't clearly address the question Matt asked...he could have been much more succinct by simply explaining how in general acknowledgment and confession of sin is embedded within the liturgy and is made by all of the people in preparation of the the Eucharist...he could have added that the church provides for private confession and absolution to a Priest--(recognized as a sacramental gift--all may, some should, none must) and then elaborated on the various definitions of what that word might construe (the various leanings or thoughts held by the church at large)...because Episcopalians are a lively bunch with a myriad of thoughts on everything! My impression is that he must have known that he was explaining to an audience who may know nothing about how a liturgical church works or the basics of the sacraments and tradition--and a beautiful rich tradition we have!. @@mkmoore8999
Hitler in heaven? WOW! My father helped to save many people from Hitlers evil. If he were living right now, he would be insensed by that comment.
This was a fantastic conversation and even at 43:24 was way too short. We need more of this kind of thing; where people have honest conversations where they are more interested in understanding one another and finding points of commonality instead of contention, not just as fellow Christians but in the larger world as well.
I think if you feel some of your questions might have seemed off-putting, it's not so much that Rev Mark found them that way as it is that questions that perhaps seem like they would be simple are actually quite complicated for us Episcopalians. There is quite a broad range of belief and of understanding within the Episcopal Church, and we pride ourselves in that. And we are loath to tell anyone that we have all the answers and that our way is the only way.
Great video! I love comparison.
I want to understand more how he views the Bible. He seemed almost bothered by some of its terminology but then quoted it at times too.
He views the Bible in any way that suits him at the moment. He is a homosexual with a “husband” who preaches nothing by feelings and theological jibberish.
Please make a follow-up. I don't think I caught or understood all the moments of friction and I'd love to see that gamed-out. That would be very beneficial for me
What a balanced talk
I wonder if he felt a little defensive because he was just at that meeting ‘last month’ where communion was discussed. He appears to be on a side that was not the majority.
Thanks for this Matt! I drive by the Episcopal church in my town and wonder about it. This answered some of my questions. I love that you said that you are asking questions not trying to convince but to learn. I think if we can do it with religion we can do it on some much less important things.
I am part of a mainline denomination which also believes that, on paper, baptism is "the way in". At the same time, I can also acknowledge that neither I nor the rules of the church are gatekeepers of God's table, nor of God's favor. So we say during Communion "let no rule of human creation" bar us from receiving Communion, "for it is Christ who invites us." If you are so moved, you partake.
totally agree, when i take communion if people are wanting and feel called to partake it should be embraced
Sounded a lot like the interview with the Universalist church. No answers, all questions.
Matt, I appreciate your willingness to have an open dialogue with those across the spectrum of Christianity. I am a former Episcopalian and it is a large tent, indeed. The church I attended as a child and young man was both evangelical and charismatic, and more aligned with the beliefs/practices of the ACNA church you visited a while back. While I disagree with several of Rev. Mark’s positions, your respectful tone towards each other sets the bar for those seeking dialog and understanding over condemnation.
The part where yall discuss splitting churches just sounded like such a discussion of divorce and prenuptial agreements
At 29:36. This whole issue of divisions in a church came in Canada about 20 years ago. The Anglican Church of Canada decided the allow gay marriage and gay clergy. That led to a significant percent of national membership to leave. The Anglican church at the time had mostly small active member attendance at each congregation. The church had struggled for years and had been selling off many church buildings just to remain sustainable. Many started their own congregations, sometimes with only 20 people coming from the old congregation. I know in one case a recently ordained minister left taking 70% of his active congregation with him. They struggled, renting space in a school for services. After many years they found a church for sale and moved in.
21:20
“We need to speak the truth in love.”
That requires first speaking the Truth.
would love more follow up
Wow, fascinating. I think I will stick with the LCMS. Thanks Matt.
Yes, I will stick with the LCMS also.
LCMS is great! I hope it continues to be an awesome fit for you and your family.
Likewise to you and your faith walk, brother. BTW, your interview with Will Weedon is an absolute classic!@@MattWhitmanTMBH
Yikes. Machen's book was titled 'Christianity AND Liberalism', for a reason.
The exclusive-and
Pastoring has become even more difficult because of "pastors/priests" like this.
A complete rejection of the scripture.
How does one become saved?
Mat 16:24, "Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me."
Romans 10:9-10; John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Acts 2:38; Romans 6:23; Etc.
People, is does not matter what you, I or anybody else thinks or says.
The response is simple, "Here is what scripture says."
I wish you could be my Keegan-Michael Key type "theological discord translator" for conversations that could get contentious. I wish I could show as much grace and understanding as you do in all of your videos.
Check out my friends at the Episcopal Fellowship for Renewal, the Episcopal branch of our Reconquista movement. There are many Episcopal priests and bishops working to restore the Episcopal Church to biblical orthodoxy.
@@thejoshuaproject3809 uhh yes?
@@thejoshuaproject3809yes. There are continuing Anglicans holding fast
bro give it up and go to a real church. You have no clue what people who came before you went through before deciding to break away from apostate mainline protestant churches.
@@thejoshuaproject3809I think the traditional Anglican belief is big tent Christianity as long as it remains to the essentials of Christianity.
@@thejoshuaproject3809
From the outside, I think the unifying documents of Anglicanism include the various editions of the Book of Common Prayer.
After he said he think Hitler is in heaven how does that square when the Bible is pretty clear that Judas is in hell? Or he believed everyone is “saved” no matter the sins they commit even IF they do not ask for Gods forgiveness.
To get forgiveness one must ask for forgiveness which requires taking responsibility for what you did
Jesus mentioned hell much more so than heaven. So that would be interesting to explore.
I appreciate this guys willingness to talk with you and we need conversation especially where there is disagreement, but this really confirmed that for me that Machen was right.
Who's Machen? Genuine question
calvinism is a farce and a cancer on christendom
@@alexpietsch7997 J. Gresham Machen
@@alexpietsch7997J. Gresham Machen was a defender of Christian orthodoxy in the early 20th century, who wrote the landmark book, "Christianity and Liberalism." It's worth a read and a re-read.
Great, I’m now listening to the audiobook of “Christianity and Liberalism” today. Thanks all.
28:30 How you describe this is really great - "a peacetime document"
As an Anglican priest for over 30 years, as a professor of Anglican Theology, as the author of two books on Anglican Theology, I can say that Reverend Mark represents a very small minority within Anglicanism both historically and globally. Anglicanism, historically and globally, would align itself with orthodox, historic, Protestantism. ACNA was not created to "do its own thing." It was created to allow Anglicans in North America to continue doing what The Church had done for 2,000 years. It was people like Reverend Mark who want to "do their own thing." His presentation of Anglicanism is very dishonest.
He literally opens the video acknowledging he ignores the plain teaching of the (already heavily altered for modernity) BCP
He represents the mainstream of Anglicanism within the Church of England. The congregation of my church in central London would be very comfortable with him as our priest. I bet his sermons are great.
I am firmly Catholic, but I appreciate men like you who accurately represent their traditions, so that those who disagree can have honest conversations.
Yet the Episcopal Church is a part of the Anglican Communion. Is the ACNA?
What are the titles of your books?
Big thank you- I've been really getting into these interviews you're doing. I think it's awesome to have a straightforward way of understanding various Christian denominations. Also, are you former military? Looked like you were at parade rest the whole time lol.
I recently became 7 Day adventist, and thought maybe it would be a good follow-up video to the others that you've already done with established Seventh-Day adventist.
Speaking to my current experience at Duke Divinity as an ordinand of the Global Methodist Church. I’m having these talks with the other side.
Dude says "obviously, I'm gay" and immediately all of my stereotyping is validated. Not my fault.
A Christian who does not believe the Bible is not meangingfuly a Christian. Muslims, Ba'hai and Sikhs all believe in one God, and that Jesus was a great guy, but they aren't Christian. Some of *them* seem closer to Christianity than theological liberals.
What does “believe the Bible” mean? I don’t believe ‘the bible’ - I believe in Christ crucified and risen.
What a paradox! @jamesellis1190