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Luke saves Grogu was the most 'joyful fan service StarWars' from the whole Disney castrastophy and the hate it recieved from Hollywood insiders is exactly what is wrong with modern TV.
Though the majority of reactions I saw were super positive, I had the opposite reaction. There were sooo many other force sensitive and Jedi who could have answered Grogu’s call. I was hoping for something new, so the SW universe could move on from “Skywalker” and tell a new story. For example, Cal Kestis finds Grogu in a Holocron record, and he wants to keep him safe from the Empire. Heck, there were even Mara Jade possibilities. Again, just me. Glad you enjoyed it.
As a life long Star Wars EU Grandmaster Skywalker fan, I’ll take what I can get. And seriously, that Luke scene was enough to satisfy me because I knew, they wouldn’t just do a whole fucking show like that which is what we would want, but they never go the full measure, they always tease fans like that and then pull out the rug from under us haha
your comments are spot on and mirror exactly what I've been thinking while watching Dune: Prophecy. It seems very clear that the show runners and episode writers are not especially familiar with the Dune books and the Dune universe, in general. They are checking a variety of boxes that some sort of market analysis has told them viewers want to see, without understanding how everything properly fits into the Dune universe. A particularly egregious example is providing an origin story for the voice, where it very carelessly is revealed to be just some innate "power" that Valya discovers she has...by accident. It should rightfully be a process that the Sisterhood has developed and honed over centuries, by controlling the tone and timber of their voice and speech patterns to influence the actions of others
@@dffndjdjdIt's also 1000% on brand for the sisterhood to find and nurture such new abilities. If they'd been around when the first person discovered how to much consider that a useful development too. Admittedly her Voice of Command should be a rough and less polished skill until she became a reverend mother with tge ability to analyze exact how she did it, how it might be improved and how to teach it to others.
They never mentioned the voice loses it's effectiveness the more it is used on the same people. I suppose because then it would seem less "magic". I recall the books explain it as essentially an evolved form of hypnosis.
The show runner AND writers are wmn. Usually they don't understand or write characters that go through the "Hero's Journey". Hence, we get these Mary Sue archetypes that just are super because .... "Girl Power!". Dune-P is no different.
Remember Capt America actually nudged the hammer a tiny bit in that party scene which wiped the smug look off Thor’s face and made him suspect that Steve was ”worthy”
@@adilsongoliveira can't remember exactly who put out the theory but there was a channel that theorized that Steve was still feeling guilty about not telling Tony about the Winter Soldier and his history with bucky. I like the theory but this scene with Steve gripping Mjolnir has been an enduring mystery.
@bladerunner27x yeah from winter soldier between ultron and infinity war? Makes sense- and of course the reason for his unworthiness being a sin of omission lol of course
Sisterhood of Dune was probably the most boring out of the books to even loosely and I mean very loosely adapt. It's another case of DEI winning out over common sense. If you're going to choose a story to adapt don't choose the snooze fest.
@@Mrtickleberries This comment shows your IQ. The issue isn't DEI. Women are written really well in the dune universe and are interesting, especially the sisters. The issue here is more broad. The general execution of the story in this season was just meh. DEI is irrelevant. The penguin is written well and was executed well for example and has a black supporting lead character. DEI is fine, it's good to include people from diverse background sets but the writing needs to be good.
@KAIZORIANEMPIRE And your comment shows yours. The sisterhood of Dune is the slowest and most boring of the Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson books and yes I've read them all. There were much more interesting books to adapt House Atriedes, House Harkonen and The Butlerian Jihad books were far better but they freely admitted they chose sisterhood for the girl power element. This would have been fine if they had made something interesting but they haven't in my opinion. Was Penguin excellent? yes it was, was that because of one actor or their skin colour? No, was the actor you're talking about excellent? yes and so we're the others and the writing was excellent as well.
@@Mrtickleberries let's keep the conversation standard. by your logic if they had adapted a different "less boring arch" it would have been a good enough series? keeping everything else equal. you think a better source material would have automatically meant better show ? Here is where we disagree. DEI is not relevant here. even if they had a batter source material without good show runners and writing and execution it would have failed to meet expectations. So whether it's for girl power or not if it sucks it sucks. please answer.... would the show have been good if they had the better source materials? lol
@@KAIZORIANEMPIRE Absolutely they could have butchered things even with better source material . However I see from one of your other comments you don't know much about the Dune universe and only watched the last few films, so subjectively how do you know they couldn't have made a better series with the books either? Perhaps instead of casting aspersions on my intelligence perhaps you could try reading the books in question and judge for yourself.
I think it’s just an issue with the writers not being fans or even familiar with the source material. Hollywood would do good to hire a few nerds off of reddit to consult during the whole process and that would probably fix all this memberberry shit they’ve pulled Take the recent Dune movies. Denis was an actual fan of the books and look at how well they did. The story strays from the source material, but you can tell that he at least understands and appreciates it enough to give it a proper treatment
It’s more than that though. The taint can come from so many places in the process that often what writers envision can be taken in a wholly unrecognizable direction. Can’t say who to blame for certain, but I blame Brian Herbert. Safe bet the sellout doesn’t give af as long as he gets a check
hollywood would do good just leaving the entire dune franchise alone. Denis also just made another blade runner but in the desert. lost of cinematic shots, no substance.
@@dffndjdjd i just meant hollywood in general. Star wars is having the same problem with most of the movies and tv shows seeming to be completely disconnected from the stuff written under george lucas. I don’t follow star trek, but it seems to have the same issues as well
@@MawGinBoo I still don’t think you can blame it on writers without more information on a case by case basis. For instance Marvel and LucasArts are both owned by Disney, so we can rule out Disney as the problem. But that said, ultimately the end product does come down to leadership. So I would hold Kennedy to blame for the Star Wars mess. As for Trek, there was a lot of nerd pushback on Discovery, most of it was unfair. That said the show’s premise, characters and stories were mid. But Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks are two of the best iterations of Trek ever made in my opinion. Shows made with love and care for what’s come before, as well as the themes and pacing of the original shows we love so much, being episodic, character-driven morality plays. But in the irony of ironies, Kurtzman, the producer behind all the new series, is being fired and because of his contract language he cannot be fired until all his shows are cancelled so they have cancelled both of them. Lower Decks just aired its last episode and I believe they have filmed two seasons of SNW to then cancel that as well. Can’t say who is to blame for Dune. I didn’t like the Dune films, that’s how big (or toxic) of a fan I am of Frank’s work. I just thought they missed the forest for the trees and gave us a very superficial take on the novel. My hopes were raised with this series the first few episodes, annoying anachronisms aside, as it seemed to be actively building dune lore that was ignored in the films, but this machine plot just has me really worried. Machines for Herbert merely represented humans giving their agency to their tools until ultimately they were nothing without them. This was a part of the larger theme of his series that humans must evolve beyond our animal natures but also retain our humanity in order to ensure species survives and thrives across the depth of the future. But for Brian Herbert, they are merely boilerplate antagonists which we have seen over and over in science fiction. All that said, not knowing more about this process of this show, I feel I can only hold Brian accountable as he is the one licensing rights and allowing these shows and films to be made. I can feel confident in holding Vilenueve accountable since he seems to have held the reins on everything for the films including the script itself. I just don’t think the confines of film runtimes and his superficial understanding of the novels would ever work in a way that satisfies me. Sadly, we will probably never see a good adaption in our lifetimes. But we have the books!
I’ve lost all interest in the Dune movie or series. After D -Part 2 and the way they portrayed the Fremen, especially what they did with Chani, I found it deeply disappointing
Im so glad you felt the same way about the Shai Hulud name drop. That was what kinda pulled me out of the show entirely and had me examining it way more closely than I should have. Like you said, it felt like such a misunderstanding of the world. My overall problem with the show is it just felt like a generic sci fi show with Dune elements. I am also hoping the production issues were why it was bad and that they sort those out next season.
Agreed the use of the term Shai Hulud was jarring. In that moment (if only brief) it was clear that the writer(s) had no actual respect for the source material and were just collecting a paycheck. There are millions of Dune fans on planet earth. There was no reason to allow non-Dune fans a chance to write episodes for this show and clearly they did as evidenced by this and the Ixian scene (which, oh my goodness that whole scene was terrible). For one, hunter seekers weren't bombs (they were stabbing weapons). For two, no honorable Atriedes would ever conspire to blow up a room full of innocent people in a terrorist bomb attack. For three, hunter seekers at the height of their technology, we're still man operated. The hunter seeker on this show was fully autonomous and carried a bomb that could kill hundreds (when it should have been a poisoned dart piloted by a guy hiding in a wall that can only respond to movement - can't aim it beyond that). There is an entire chapter in the Dune Encyclopedia written about hunter seekers that ANYONE could have read (Dune fan or not) before writing this horrible lore-shattering awful attempt at fanservice.
I understand writers just want a job most of the time....but I'll NEVER understand why any writer would sign on to write a show or movie based on novels they never read. Writers need to READ, too. They need to be nerds that can geek out over certain IPs. Why even write for something if you aren't a fan of it??? Or at least do some research once you get the job, you know? Sheesh.
Lately it feels like a lot of famous old IP's that have been taken over by different studios, or bought by them, fall into this hole. They use names and labels from the IP on screen expecting that is all they need to do to bring in that fan base, but they don't understand WHY those names, characters or things are important.
I knew it would be a bad show, since I saw Harkonnen Invented the Voice!! a bit too on the nose! the young princes and princesses humping different houses was bad storytelling, I havent read the books, but the houses wouldnt dialute their bloodlines with willy nilly im sure!
Again, this doesn't feel like it takes place 10 000 years before first Herberts DUNE story. More like 200-300 years max. 5000 years passed in the books and in every time jump the world felt completely different, but you could see how actions of the characters led to the state world was in.
What I dislike, and this isn't exclusive to Dune, but in Dune Prophesy it is supposed to be 10,000 years before the books and movies. Yet, all the great houses are there, hating each other exactly as they will in later years. I mean, on Earth can we find Julius Trump and Marcus Biden fighting in Ancient Rome? that always destroys verisimilitude for me.
"Dune: sisterhood" was written as a self insert for dim narcissistic women then the focus group researchers realized that the only people watching would be basement dwelling men and tried to backtrack. Too bad they wrote all of the male characters in the show as one dimensional simps. Dune aesthetics and references aren't enough to get the core audience to care about some vapid nepo babies fan fict.
Yea this is exactly right. thank you. the writers seemed to use Dune terms sort of like a large language model without any substantive understanding of the full meaning and context of the words. shai hulud is not just another word for sandworm for the reasons that you gave. There are so many other examples in the show including the Terminator like interpretation of the Butlerian Jihad. The new Alien movie was another example .. little more than a two hour Easter Egg hunt.
I think this show did throw everything at the wall and it really didn’t stick in the end, but I’d hardly lay the blame solely at the studio’s feet. Of those Hollywood people who think we are all stupid, easily quantifiable, and that we just want to see all the boxes checked. As much as that’s a problem in Hollywood, one they can’t seem to recognize they are wrong about despite flop after flop and cratering ticket sales, I think this series has just as much, if not more blame with Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson. In their shameless cash grab, they destroyed Frank’s legacy, the themes of his series he was building towards, for some anthropomorphic, contradictory robot villains that made zero sense and backstories that directly contradicted franks own words. Part of the success of the original Dune series, is how so much of the history behind the series and characters, that deep time, is so shadowy and unexplained. It gives the series that patina of mystery and helps us see it as THE future. We didn’t need to know where the sisterhood came from. How Holtzman engines were created and the spacing guild formed. What happened to Earth. How the sisterhood formed. Why the Atreides hate the Harkonnen. To me it makes way more sense that the Atreides and Harkonnen represent different moral systems and this is why they oppose each other historically and politically, not because of some 10,000 year dispute over someone balking at genocide. What Brian Herbert did was remove that mystery for sales of his pulp-level garbage books which have been mostly adapted for this series which is why it’s tainted in the eyes of us real fans of the original series.
Wonderfully put. Brian watered down father's legacy with a flood of poorly written excuses for Dune books. One of the most telling things about Brian was that he became an insurance salesman before he became an author. The child of such a wonderful dreamer and philosopher decided to follow in his Dad's footsteps 10 years after his Dad died and only after completing a 20 year career selling insurance. So, as one might expect, the Brian Herbert Dune books read as if they were written by a non-author, career insurance salesman who decided there was more money in shamelessly cashing in on his Dad's legacy than the living off the pension plan earned his life of being an insurance salesman. To sum, Frank inspired millions in his generation and millions more in generations to come. Brian sold insurance plans.
Correct me if im wrong but they never mention once in the new films and tv show WHY THE SPICE IS SO IMPORTANT! They never give a clear explanation how it gives the mutant navigators the clairvoyance to safely navigate the universe . Then what are they even fighting over in the first place. Not a fan of this whole series.
The first movie did mention that the navigators use it to predict safe paths, and that it makes it important, and the show showed us how common it is as a recreational drug when people are constantly using it in inhalers and straight up snorting it. If anything they’ll go deeper into the navigator’s role in the first movie, and the conspiracy to kill Muad’Dib. Wait at least till Denis completes the trilogy first. I can see the navigator’s telling Mohiam to suggest to the emperor to kill the Atreides and Paul in particular
@@tgiacin435I wouldn't say it's a "common recreational drug," in Prophecy -- it's shown being used exclusively by rich people. We also don't really know if it's pure spice, or it's being cut/stretched with other substances -- maybe in Prophecy, they're doing Spicy Eight Balls of spice/fentanyl/cocaine all in one shot :P
In the first movie, when Paul is reading the projector-book to learn about Arrakis, it explains that Spice enables safe space travel - thus "making it the most valuable substance in the universe". The projector-book also mentions that Spice extends life expectancy.
The guild intentionally hyped up the anti aging/health benefits of spice to misdirect the general public (including the great houses and Emperor) away from its more important role in interstellar navigation. Most of the upper classes were spice addicts only the benejeseret knew of its role in interstellar navigation as well as refining their powers which is why they were so quick to abandon Shaddam IV and at least pretend to accept Paul’s rule as he threatened to destroy the ecology that made spice possible.
Case in point. Henry V (1944) with Lawrence Olivier. They had the keepers of arms and armour from the Wallace collection and Royal Armouries. So the top people for Medieval arms and armour, possibly in the World advising. Director was told catagorically, that knights being hoisted onto horse was a myth. Never happened in war. Only very rarely in jousting tornaments. As torney armour is often double the weight of field armour (too heavy to fight in). So people dont get injured. Cut to scenes of French knights being hoisted onto their horses. Having the experts and listening and understanding the why from them. Sadly different things. The last 15-20 years is all like this. Writers and directors don't want to hear from lore and technical experts. As said artsy folk cry "he is cramping my creative freedom!". Until W.D and P really understand that when doing a long running franchise, or something with a lot of lore, like Dune. They have to colour within the lines of the existing lore. Expand with a new picture is fine, but within the lines. The not colouring in the lines is why all the post Enterprise Trek, is average to bad generic sci-fi with Starfleet decals stuck on it. It is similar and in someways worse to what happened to the Star Wars films. Both franchises involved JJ Abrams and Alex Kurtzman and SecretHideout/Bad Robot. Which ruined the two biggest Sci-Fi franchieses going.
F Brian Hebert. Sellout. He wrote pulp level garbage and destroyed his father’s legacy for money. He didn’t write a single book that even touched on a fraction of the style and themes of his father. It’s like comparing a comic strip to a Pulitzer novel
The Shai-Hulud name drop was part of an overall problem with both the series, and also with Villeneuve's movies. A big element of Dune is the mystery of Arrakis - everyone overlooks the Fremen because no-one knows anything about them. Greed for the spice means that the Imperium hasn't paid any attention to anything else. The conversations, filmbooks etc. that are vast (and accurate) encyclopedias of information on Arrakis and the Fremen are jarring, to say the least.
7:46 I think we should probably give the show a pass for using "Shai Hulud" so much. "Shai Hulud" is probably a loan word. There are several languages used (even ancient Egyptian) in the Duniverse. For this discussion, the most important are Chakobsa and Galach. Galach is the common language for the Imperium. Think of it like English in non-English speaking countries. It is descended from English and several Slavic languages. Chakobsa is an uncommon language used by the Fremen. The name comes from Bzhedug (a real-life dialect of Circassian) and means "the language of hunters". It was a secret language used by medieval Circassian knights and princes. In the Duniverse, Chakobsa is a fusion of French, Romani, Arabic, Slavic, Greek, Sanskrit, and Hebrew. When the Imperium learned of Spice, the Fremen were likely more friendly with outworlders. The brutal Harkonnen occupation happened LONG after Spice's discovery. (The Harkonnens had only controlled Arrakis for 80 years before Leto Atreides took control.) When a trade item is discovered in a foreign land, it is common to call that item by the name the foreigners use. These are called "loan words". Some examples are "ketchup" (Chinese), "coffee" (Arabic), and chocolate (Nahuatl). What makes this hypothesis even more likely is that there are real-life creatures known as "sandworms": Alitta virens. In the Duniverse, there are probably other non-Shai Hulud sandworms. Using the name "Shai Hulud" for the sandworms of Arrakis would have ensured that there was never any confusion about which sandworms were being discussed. Another point in favor of this is that exotic and far-off places can become very fashionable when that far-off place is providing an important trade good. Oriental culture became very fashionable in England as tea became a more important part of British society. And while Arrakis might be a hellhole, it is CERTAINLY exotic. So, at the time of Dune Prophecy, a lot of people were likely using the name "Shai Hulud" because the giant sandworms had caught people's attention. But as time went on, knowledge of Arrakis became more commonplace/mundane. Most people didn't know the connection between the sandworms and spice. For the Imperium, Spice was the important thing. Sandworms probably became a curiosity that most people were not aware of, like the bioluminesence of Mosquito Bay, Puerto Rico.
The whole arc with Theodosia was terrible. I agree about name dropping Votian without context. Griffins death wasn’t explained. We just cut to the funeral and then Tula’s betrayal. The way of it still wasn’t explained even if it was hinted at the end. Shai’Halud is a term that wouldn’t have been known by anyone who wasn’t dealing intimately with the Fremen. My overall opinion is if you read the BH/KJA fanfic then this series probably worked best for you. I think Denis Villinaeuve is attempting to remain within Frank Herbert’s canon while adding texture and context to the story for those who haven’t read the books and delivering some interesting Easter Eggs for those who have. It’s a delicate balance. Something the series failed to achieve. I felt there were too many perspectives to the storytelling. They should’ve picked one or two and dived into them. Instead there are too many thread that end up going nowhere.
I have a feeling they’ll go over Griffin’s death in the next season since the season ended with Valya on Arrakis. As far as Theodosia is concerned, her mission is yet to be completed. She was captured, and is a prisoner as they planned. And Tula is there too. A face dancer and reverend mother? They could escape easily
Underwhelming is a very good word for their use of easter eggs. I think a lot of it stems from how these facets of the story were taken from the Brian Hebert/KJA stories, and THEIR use of easter eggs... I mean, they didn't just reference the original books, they retconned the timeline to do their own thing with the origins of the various factions. So, to me, when I see the mere EXISTENCE of Suk Doctors, Mentats, Fremen, etc... THOUSANDS OF YEARS ahead of when they originated in the original timeline, it ceases to be a cool easter egg that they're incorporated, and they become anachronistic anomalies that shouldn't exist, and rip me out of the universe.
Most of the factions we are familiar with were in existence in some form or another when the Battle of Corrin occurred It’s hyperbolic to say that these factions didn’t exist for thousands of years after the Battle of Corrin when all were up and running within a hundred years of the transition of House Butler into House Corrino Just saying…
@@mpalfadel2008Official Timeline from the Dune Encyclopedia: Forgive my formatting, as I copy pasted from a text document into the notification reply section... 200-108 THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD. 108 Holtzman returns and is destroyed by forces of the Jihad. ca. 100 Ixians, refugees from the Jihad, led by Aurelius Venport, discover TUPILE, the Sanctuary Planet(s). 88 THE BATTLE OF CORRIN. 86 FOUNDATION OF HOUSE ATRETDES when Demetrios Atreides is made Baron Tantalos in reward for aiding the Corrinos. 84 First MELANGE-guided journey through hyperspace, by Norma Cenva. Apparently, by this time, they had discovered the Spice Melange. However, there are no Fremen on Arrakis until thousands of years later, as will be shown later. Also, the show seems to have merged the end of the "machine war" with the Battle of Corrin, which muddies the waters. 12 B.G.- 70 A.G. The Reign of SAUDIR I, "The Great." 10 Corpus Luminis Praenuntiantis (the future Spacing Guild) begins negotiations with the Empire. 10-5 THE GREAT FINANCIAL SYNOD, on Aerarium IV, creates CHOAM. 0 THE LION THRONE, THE SPACING GUILD, and CHOAM (as the arm of the Landsraad) combine to establish the form of human society for the next ten thousand years. AFTER GUILD 8 WE ARE HERE in the Dune: Prophecy series (116 years after the END of the machine wars in 108 BG) otherwise, if they wrongly count the battle of Corrin as the last battle of the machine war, we'd be in the year 32. 123-184 Reign of NEGARA II. 207 Thomas Atreides helps restore Elrood II, and is made Duke of Jaddua. 337 THE GREAT CONVENTION is ratified. 385-388 THE USHASH REBELLION, the last significant armed resistance to the Empire. 388 Saudir III designates SALUSA SECUNDUS as PRISON PLANET. 390 Wallach I begins use of Salusa Secundus as a training ground for the SARDAUKAR. 1234 THE ORDER OF MENTATS is founded by Gilbertus Albans, originally on the planet Septimus, and moved to Tleilax a decade later. 1487 The Corrinos shift the. Imperial Seat to Kaitain. 2800 Elrood V gives Poritrin, third planet of Epsilon Alangue, to House Maros. Siridar Charles Baron Mikarrol, planetary governor of Terra, sends two million ZENSUNNI to Poritrin, beginning the Zensunni Migration. THIS IS THE START OF THE ZENSUNNI MIGRATION - there are NO FREMEN on Arrakis at this time. (The Zensunni existed since 1381 BG. The Zensunni wandering didn't begin until 2800 AG. The Fremen are the REMNANTS of the Zensunni Wanderers.) 4492 Poritrin is given to House Alexin, and the Sardaukar are sent to remove the Zensunni, sending five million to BELA TEGEUSE and five million to SALUSA SECUNDUS. In other entries, we find that 9 generations of Fremen lived on Salusa Secundus, and in this timeline, this matches up with my estimate of 800ish years, that I assumed prior to finding this timeline. 5122 First FACE DANCERS appear as entertainers at the Court of Corrin XIV. 5295 Ezhar VII releases the Zensunni on Salusa Secundus, sending them to ISHIA, second planet of Beta Tygri: 6049 Zensunni on Bela Tegeuse are transported again, with the majority sent to Harmonthep, and the remainder to ROSSAK, the fifth planet of Alces Minor. ca. 6600 A Sayyadina on Rossak discovers a plant whose ingestion unlocks the "voices within." THIS IS THE START OF BENE GESSERIT USING ANCESTRAL MEMORY. (about 6,600 years AFTER the show says they could do it...) Interesting, that a Sayyadina is who discovered it - typically, Sayyadina are Fremen... and Zensunni were present on Rossak at this time. ca. 6800 Harmonthep, a satellite of Delta Pavonis, is destroyed by unknown causes. 7193 Zensunni on Rossak buy passage to ARRAKIS from the Spacing Guild. By this time, all Zensunni from both Ishia and Rossak have reached Arrakis. - NOW THERE ARE FREMEN ON ARRAKIS. (From the entry on Fremen: "When the Fremen gathered on Arrakis in 7193, they encountered a climate that was to have an enormous impact on those attitudes.") For all this time, since before the Jihad, the imperium had been harvesting spice on Arrakis. I only point this out, because people like to claim the Fremen were the natives of Arrakis, and the Imperium was intruding on their land and taking their resources... when the Fremen were more like squatters in the land... only living there because nobody else wanted to live there... except those working on spice mining. Prior to their gathering on Arrakis, their "forced migration" was to use them as seed colonies, and forced labor. Imperial raiders often took Zensunni Wanderers (Fremen) as slaves, thus building in the Fremen a resentment and anger ("Never to forget. Never to forgive.") that eventually erupted on the Imperium when they had a figurehead to rally behind (an excuse). On Arrakis, they mostly lived in the southern hemisphere, where Imperial technology failed in the desert, keeping them, and their number, safe. Those who CHOSE to live in the northern hemisphere were doing so willingly, to put themselves in a position to strike against the Harkonnen in the time of the books. 8711 The Atreides family is awarded the Siridar-Dukedom of CALADAN. 9751 ELACCA drug in relatively common use. 9846 Invention of HUNTER-SEEKER. ca. 10000 Invention of the DISTRANS on Ix. 10092 Semuta extraction process discovered. 10140 LETO ATREIDES (Duke Leto I) born. 10154 LADY JESSICA born. 10155-10165 GURNEY HALLECK a Harkonnen slave on Giedi Prime. 10158 DUNCAN IDAHO (the human) born. 10175 PAUL ATREIDES born.
And from the appendix of Dune: SUK SCHOOL OF MEDICINE Founded on Kaitain in 2401 by a group of Tsai practitioners and financed by the Emperor Kenric JH al-Kam. Originally established as the Imperial Tsai Medical College, it was later renamed the Suk School of Medicine to honor Dr. Faisan Suk, physician to the Imperial Family during the reign of Corrin VIII (2727-2756).
Dune Prophecy was already working at a disadvantage the moment they decided to base it on the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson novels. The problem was further compounded by having Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson involved in the production. All this was further compounded by the fact that FEW people are Dune scholars. Yes, there are many people who have read Dune, Dune Messiah, and Children of Dune. Fewer have read God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, and Chapterhouse: Dune. But how many have read the Dune Encyclopedia (that was AUTHORIZED by Frank Herbert, despite what the Herbert Estate now says), or the Songs of Muad'dib? How many have read The Sabres of Paradise by Lesley Blanch, or the Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T.E. Lawrence? How many fans are familiar with Sunni Islam or Zen Buddhism? The fact is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to provide Dune fan service when you don't understand the franchise that fans have fallen in love with. Franchises based on comics are less complicated, which is why you see better fan in the MCU than in other franchises. Series like Fallout also have an advantage in that computer games are less complicated as well.
If your looking for bad fan service, you don’t have to go further than Discovery Season1, where the look like they put Lorca’s office in the Star Trek Props Department. You couldn’t swing a Bat’leth in there without hitting an Easter egg or 5 from a tribble to a Gorn Skeleton. But then, the whole show was a joke so what should we expect
I think the concept of this series was a good idea, but I would have approached it much differently. I would have avoided prequel characters and plots, and instead focused on more of an anthology where each season is a different era, different characters, different conflict. And over the course of the series we come to understand the evolution of the sisterhood’s mission, the very mission Leto II takes the mantle of, which would go a long way to helping non-readers enjoy the series and hopefully future films. And through the course of that we could see all these elements come together unlike this series which just anachronistically throws them all in right at the beginning.
I would have scaled the plot and show concept down even more. I would just have a show called The Sisterhood (no overt use of the word Dune) and set it in the Dune Universe 10,000 years before Paul. The show's main plot is about the journey to become a Reverend Mother (some acolytes get all the way there, some don't). Along the way acolytes struggle with universal young adult issues like pregnancy (keep the Tula's child arc), struggle relating to those from other backgrounds (have an Atriedes sister and Harkonnen sister there), physically demanding teachers (think training in the rain, hand under the bunson burner body training)... And the show should only briefly leave the school on Wallach IX for scenes when students explain their past in a 5-10 minute flashback scene (eg Valya talking about growing up in a whaling village). What this would accomplish is growing the female Dune fanbase, but more importantly it would resonate on a universal level. Everyone can relate to strict teachers and trying to adapt to high school life after childhood. And I would base the show on Frank Herbert's Chapterhouse of Dune in terms of how sisters are supposed to act (never to challenge a superior, always 100% obedient... Even to the point of death). If it flopped? Ah, it was barely a Dune thing anyway. A flop on "barely a Dune show" won't hurt the franchise's momentum. If the show succeeds? Congrats, you have a low budget hit and you can always add new acolytes to train if or send others on missions if they leave the show. So, keep the classic BG robes for instructors and plain school outfits for the acolytes. Sprinkle lore throughout (prana bindu training, fear of possession, Sisterhood above all unshakeable core belief, Truthsaying, ect) but only use Dune lore in a natural way (e.g. Class, "today's lesson is about Truthsaying) that seamlessly is a part of a show that is about young women at a boarding school in a strange and wonderful sci fi franchise.
The show is alright, but I’m be real. I don’t see this making it past season 2. I’m honestly not clamoring to see season 2, didn’t really leave me with a feeling like “wow can’t wait to see season 2 and the mysterious person”. I personally think they canceled raised by wolves for this show. Raised by wolves to me was way better, had a very interesting plot.
TV series used to be one episode a week and shot very near to the date of the screening , which gave the writers directors and everyone else who worked ın them a viewer feedback , if they did not listen that series would be cancelled fast. we lost that feedback element with the streaming service and their whole season at once shot and delivered approach. even if they release it once a week the season is already done by the time the first episode drops anyway. also the number of episodes dropped so fast ( like from 22-24 to 6-8 ) that it no longer tells a wide story but a single narrow event seems like
The lower number of episodes is definitely for the better. The budget can be better used per episode and there’s very few 20 episode tv shows that are in the top series of all time. Look at CW. More episodes means more fillers, poorer writing and poorer quality
I didn't like the new Dune movies aside from some designs, a lot of it annoyed me. I really didn't like any Dune books outside of Frank Herbert's six, they don't do much other than mess up camomile. So a modern day show based on Brian Herbert's book written in the style of Game of Thrones' worst scenes didn't make it past episode 2 for me. I'll just keep reading the original books over and over.
@@BbNaBI recommend reading the Dune Encyclopedia as well. I too will never even glance at a Brian book, but the DE is not a Brian book and it had Frank's blessing (written before Heretics so it only covers some years after Leto 2's assassination). Brian, being the asshat that he is, banned republishing of the DE, but you can read a PDF file of it online with a little bit of searching on Google. And as a bonus, the writing of DE is as close to "Frank-like" as it gets without being Frank. In fact, Frank and the main author of DE were going to write a Butlerian Jihad book based on that entry in the DE (and haha that wonderful encylopedia entry has nothing to do with Terminators or any of Brian's nonsense).
They should have introduced the battle of Corrin at least a full episode. There are key essentials elements that could've been be explored: The motivations for the Jihad against machines; The discovery of spice and how it became the highest commodity; The philosophical, political and religious implications of what defined humans and the establishment of Orange Catholic Bible; The reformation of the government and the rise of House Corrino;
2:00 This was almost as bad as the Acolyte. The moments I felt most happy is when the credits rolled from the 1st episode and I realized I gave this a shot though I knew it was going to be bad and still watched the entire episode. The 2nd part was realizing I had better choices of things to watch from other non-woke streaming services.
All great points esp Shai Hulud - but you have to recognize that all BH/KJA understand is fan service. It’s already corrupted. Meaning yes, invent new things instead of reference things that will not exist for thousands of years. The thinking machine plot has some promise as it makes sense there would still be a group of people unwilling to go along with the ban. All the same I expect it to be mishandled poorly. Could they have had the guy be a smuggler instead of an Ixian directly? Of course but fan service. I expect most Dune fans over the years have seen Star Wars and what it has become and do not want any of it.
Dune Prophecy dumped stuff in the plot just to say "see, we did/said the thing! Are you entertained?" There where Easter eggs that contradicted Frank's lore. Just there to be there. "Look, an Artriedes!"
As a Dune fan since 40 years, I didn't even like Villeneuve's version. Dune deserves the Peter Jackson of the LOTR trilogy and a gigantic budget. And no DEI hires, no writing and interpretation for the modern audience, no extensive CGI, no fan service.
TBH we're just never going to get another Peter Jackson style LOTR adaptation, not in this day and age of wokeness. I know the word get flung around but we gotta start calling it what it is now, that's infecting everything these days. So where "Dune" is concerned I see it as the fans are actually lucky they get the Villanueva adap the way it was, because if it wasn't him, a modern Dune adap today under Hollywood could have fair far worse. I don't blame Denis for little DEI practices like race-swapping Kynes, that was forced on him by the ideologically driven studio itself, who basically told him in as much words - "the DEI rules state there must be atleast ex-mount of this color in the cast or the movie doesn't fly, so if you don't allow some DEI changes somewhere we'll just remove you and get a (younger) Director who will do things exactly how we want." So Denis went along with it, but I think he handled it well tbh. One more thing to understand is that Dune is a really hard story to adapt on the big screen and I feel Denis did a damn good job overall, the best anyone could of really, especially under these times.
Thank the Maker I never even started watching this. Ever since the failure of Game of Thrones I think twice before investing so much time into any new show.
I'm so glad someone else picked up on the flatness of how this show tried to ride on the heels of Denis' big screen Dune movies with this mediocre written TV show. I don't know the book material well, but I hella consumed the bigscreen movies. The use of "Shai Halud" coming from any of the non-Fremen mouths seemed so silly. Especially since it was so early in "the history" of the Dune universe. So many characters so casually know the details of what's happening on Arrakis? They know and use Fremen words? I'm not saying it's out of place for a particular noble to maybe have an education on it MAYBE, but this story is thousands of years before the recent films and that leaves a LOT of time for people to evolve in a world with such technology and the rate that humans develop and solve our own problems (if we don't die out). A lot of Fremen ways should be known, or even exist because they haven't been developed yet but this show drops in as if Arrakis, and every other corner of the universe is exactly the same as 10,000 years later except the state of the people and power of the Houses.
Meh, as long as they lean into the DV version as the source material for lore, they will consistently fall short from what Frank Herbert set forth. For me, as a fan of Dune, it will never track. They will never be able to meet my expectations. Not because my expectations are too high, but because DV has produced an unrecognizable pile of garbage. It's not Dune, has different lore, and he's not done destroying the story. Try streaming the Syfy miniseries - the most definitive versions of lore ... they've been effectively wiped away. Both Dune and Children of Dune. A nod, though, to the earlier movie. It didn't capture the essence of Herbert's world quite as well, but it did a fine job given the film length.
The facedancers! So right! The introduction of the face dancer felt empty and I couldn't figure out why and you put truth to it. I really liked your interpretation of what was done with Dune prophecy. I guess I liked some of the show because I plan to watch the second season while I refuse to watch the 2nd season on Rings of Power.
Do you mean it should've been different since that's so long in the past (difference between stone age and now from our perspective) or that it's not similar enough? I think it should've been more similar in terms of themes but would've liked if it had deviated more such that they actually show the transition from futuristic to stagnant but that would've introduced a while new pre-BG timeline but even a glimpse to show the transition to stagnation would've been nice
Fan service done darn near perfectly -- Amazon's "Fallout" The game's aesthetics were incorporated into the story, the characters and their motivations without apology. Without apology, that's the most important part. That's why the fan service worked so well. They weren't done with a wink. They instead contributed to the world, the characters and their motivations without trying to justify their existence or explain them in real world terms. Stimpacks, for example. There was no attempt to explain or justify their existence. But neither were they hidden or apologized for. When Lucy first grabs one and jabs it into her stomach, and then a few moments later we watch her heal, she doesn't mutter under her breath some stupid line that tries to explain how something like them would work in the real world. She just instead goes on about her business and we are left to accept that stimpacks are something in this world that magically heals mortal wounds. The same went for ghouls. There was no "real world" attempt to explain their existence. They are just simply accepted as a real, functional part of the Fallout world. The show's fx crew even built four real, functional sets of power armor, as well as a complete vault set.
I have to completely disagree with your assessment of Fallout (tv) The thing was a complete mess from beginning to end It seemed very half assed n not very well thought out
Ah, another Todd fanboy praising a mediocre adaptation of FO. Visually, sure, it looks great; on the surface. But, real fans, not band wagon fans of a trendy franchise, know how much that show sucked.
She’s a face dancer that was not face dancing the entire series. lol Why? Makes no sense to me. I still enjoyed a good portion of this series despite several glaring issues. Glad it was renewed and hopefully will have a great season 2
I think my favorite "fan service", and I wouldn't even call it fan service, but it was a nice touch. Was seeing Richard Hatch on the reboot of Battlestar Galactica. He was only on the show for a few episodes and played an incarcerated terrorist that was given amnesty for his assistance. It was really nice seeing him again.
Prophesy is boring because of incompetent producers. I felt no tension or suspense. Boeing has had major problems with bad executives, who were financial guys. They didn't know engineering, and people died. With this Dune series, they don't understand the entertaining weirdness of Herbert's universe. Instead, the writers paint by numbers. Many of the actors are reading their lines.
A society that existed 10,000 years ago would be absolutely nothing like what exists today. It's kind of irritating that there's very little difference between Villeneuve's Dune and Dune Prophesy. I guess the producers figured they wouldn't get the larger audience without the similarities
I can just imagine an early pre production meeting where they say where’s this and where’s that. Then they’re told this is 10,000 years before and so they don’t exist yet and then the big heads just say, the fans won’t understand that. Like we can’t understand that things change in 10,000 years. And this is how we get Shan Hulud and Face Dancers… smh
More importantly they would have had to do a lot more worldbuilding, both for new audiences and for those that that seen Villeneuves Dune and have expectations. And there is a limit how much you can insert into a story naturally without it becoming boring or a distraction from the actual story.
I was annoyed whenever any scene featured Vorian for more than ten seconds; the acting is so uninspired (which i blame on casting more than the actor) and the character development nonexistent. I couldn't tell you anything about his personality after watching the whole season. Which is annoying when he has a fairly meaty role as a betrayer and revolutionary.
This is why back in the day the entertainment industry would avoid getting into these fictional worlds because they truly knew nothing about them and half assed attempts would fail.👎
Yes. The overreliance on the "thinking machines" concept really revealed how lazy the writing was. This story is set not long after the Butlerian Jihad. You would think that recent proximity would be reflected by a much greater degree of visceral horror towards the idea of humanity using thinking machines for ANY reason. They had some elements of this with the faction of Bene Gesserit that was so fanatically opposed to their use...but the rest of society seemed to not even care, despite having so recently escaped a near extinction level conflict with those same machines. It didn't make sense that people were more against the idea of using them ten thousand years later, than they were right after the war, where there are still living people around with first hand knowledge of how dangerous they are. It was like the only people in the show who didn't approve of thier use, were all the antagonists in the story. That doesn't make any sense at all to what Herbert was trying to portray with them. He emphasised a lot about humanity's natural capabilities, and how advanced technology was, in fact a dangerous crutch that only held the species back. It was nothing to be celebrated.
1. You can't create fan service if you're not even fans in the first place - Hollywood executives don't even know what they're producing, as their motivation is network ratings and revenue, and thus, they hire writers to fulfil that, instead of writers who know the lore/literature. 2. Hollywood's idea of fans is people with agenda, e.g. LGBT, DEI, race politics etc. Not the actual fans of a franchise. Just look at the many examples of shows in the last decade purposely made to virtue-signal their agenda, at the expense of fan expectations. E.g. Rings of Power.
One kind I really dislike is the bait-and-switch fan service, like the Mandarin in Ironman 3 and Quicksilver in Wandavison. In case of the Dune Prophecy it has to be the blue glowing eyes in the dark not being God Emperor Leto, but some random machine. Although this clearly reveals that this series is going to be more ‘Brianesc’ than ‘Frankinian’.
Every aspect of the fan service just felt disingenuous to me. I wanted a unique origin story for the Bene Gessrit. What I felt we got was some weird attempt at Game of Thrones with a Dune skin. And the fact that they end up on Arrakis (sorry for the minor spoiler...)...this just feels very narrowly focused and half baked. Completely relying on the movie's success rather than trying to be good in its own right. I'll watch a second season if they have one because it wasn't entirely terrible and I would be curious to see if they could build interest...but all-in-all, the first season was 1000% carried on the actors they chose, because the story felt meh.
I think Cap didn’t try to lift Mjolnir. He decided there was no real gain in lifting it at that time. He’s not a show off. It you’re totally right, it helped set up that great moment later.
I liked your chat with the chaps at Gom Jabbar and agree that hopefully, series 2 might have a better approach to things... Especially if they pay any attention to the likes of yourselves and the importance such fan representation on our behalf holds.
Hollywood Exec: Let’s find everything we can on the Dune saga. You there! Read all of the books and report back to me tomorrow. We start production first thing Fans: Wowwie! They’re making a Dune prequel! Yea! Researcher: Sir, here is everything I know about the Dune saga, and here’s the exact chronology. Hollywood Exec: That’s waaaaaaay too much information! Writer: we could do five seasons going into great detail and produce awesome special effects giving the fan base what they’re looking for. Maybe follow up with a movie partnering with Villeneuve? Hollywood Exec: Shut your pie hole. You’re fired! I want six episodes with a crap load of dialogue that leaves gaps and goes nowhere. That’ll keep us under budget and then we can green light another boring season getting the fans’ hopes up and gaining more subscriptions, heh, heh, heh. Fans: What else is there to watch? Hey Dune 1984 is on! Fin
The first few episodes I thought was a really decent start then it dropped off a cliff the last few. Why did the princess have the same truthsense ability that the seasoned fully trained sisters had? Why did the Emperor kill himself as a final act of free will when he already knew that they wanted him to die?? Writing just became more braindead longer it went on
The show jumped the shark for me when Desmond survived a bombed out building landing on him. What is the point of even trying to kill this guy. In a later episode (again, after an entire multi-story building collapsed on him) he gets stabbed point blank in the gut by a sword and that has zero effect on him aside from he has to hold his hand over the bloody wound.
Personally I think they tried to get in as many references to the Dune universe as they could, making too many underdeveloped plotlines. Try to get all these just gets you lost, But in that same Dune Universe its not that easy just to pick one growp, one person or even one plate to put in the centre, because its all somehow connected. And in those connections it went not particularly well. Try to get in a face dancer, which btw took a very long time to perfect, and an Ixiaan without really explaing why they were in there, and not in the least an Atreides who wants to blow up a lot of people. If an Atreides ever would do that?
It was really just a show for feminists to power trip, not dune at all, bs dei feminist woke garbage, not because of the women being powerful, but because of the obvious purposeful casting of all ugly women besides tula, and complete lack of genuine will to understand and explore the dume universe
You might be overlooking something: lack of skill on the part of the creators. It's not easy to seamlessly weave fan-service into the narrative, so not everyone can do it.
A story of the origins of how and what led to the Bene Gesserit would have been nice. Instead we got this series of eye motifs to try and justify the machine implanted in Desmond's eye, with an already existing Sisterhood.
I just don't know, it would seem that it would take more than 100 years to fully disassociate an empire from computers. Some sci-fi rush through their timelines. I love Mass Effect but the time between the First Contact war and the time of the first game, has humanity so tightly integrated in the galactic community in a few decades.
Best example of failed fanservice, "Game Of Thrones" not allowing Jon Snow to take on and fight the Night King after soo much set up and hinting. Instead Dumb and Dumber subverted the hell out of everyone's expectations by giving such an unearned moment to Arya, thereby diminishing and ultimately destroying the show. The definition of a creative brainfart.
The worst one for me was the voice. Not only were they trying too hard with the Dune memberberries but they also stuck in GOT memberberries which made it even worse.
It’s like they didn’t have a reverence for the material. If you saw the last supper but it was painted by someone who didn’t have a connection to the Bible, it wouldn’t be as great. Art must reflect something of meaning to the one making it.
Using Freman terms for sand worms and a character just happens to be a or of one of the houses we know of or just happening to be a face dancer. Good catch, I was thinking along simular lines.
"Clunky" is apt description of fan service in "Dune: Prophecy". FYI, a conventionally delivered bomb would've been as a effective as a Hunter-Seeker and cheaper, too. That rebellion was vaguely defined. The name drop of Shai-Hulud can have a reasonable explanation. Arrakis and the Spice were recent discoveries, within the last century. A 50 meter or larger worms would be mythical to everyone that hears about it. IMO, it wouldn't be a stretch that the Fremen name be widely used.
Weirdly I totally loathe the BH+KJA fanfiction, but I liked the way "Dune Prophecy" used Thinking Machines. I actually appreciated the emphasis on absolutely everyone in the young Imperium's ruling class being massive hypocrites about the Jihad's new religious proscriptions.
I hadnt really thought of this in my own watching, but its spot on. We watched maybe three episodes, but it never really felt like Dune... more like Game of Thrones in space.
Face dancer should have replaced the Emperor after discovering his body or something like this. Or that could have failed, but be the reason she was there rather than to swap the princess, since she didn't even follow through with that.
If they had never mentioned Tleilaxu and Ixians, it might have meant Deneuve had plans for them at some point, so hands off. The fact they went ahead and off-handedly included them to me means Deneuve never had any plans to ever introduce them. That makes me more disappointed with his interpretation of the story.
I made it about 30 min into one episode before I concluded the show wasn't worth my time. At this point I just assume ALL shows and movies are slop until I see evidence otherwise. I knew the movies would be good as soon as I knew it was Dennis Villaneueve and he had broad control over it.
There shouldn't be any fan service in Dune. It's not a comic or a cartoon or a video game. There is many online who conflate Nerd culture with Dune, it's just not that sort of thing although it might seem that way from a superficial reading. People who want it to be like GOT or Star Trek will be disappointed.
Dune is not Star Wars. The fan service is important but Nerd Cookies is right: it has to strike right. Dune is difficult because its more cerebral than the other sci-fi franchises. The strength of Dune is in its profound science implications: what if we did have Mentats (i.e. DNA based computing)? That in addition to the lore references cited by Nerd Cookies.
Bro, it wasn't a bunch of outsiders referring to the worm as shai hulud. It's a cult of extremely knowledgeable sorceresses... Who have a direct hand in religion and what it means around the Galaxy. Also, fans of the recent movies might be a little help in understanding that the sand worms are Shai Hulud
I think Dune prophecy sucks. I got to about half way through 3rd episode and gave up. Of all the storylines for a show, it picks the most uninteresting. I guess a show about a bunch of Karens manipulating powerful men is all the rage for young people.
It comes down to writing. Where did all the talented writers go? Did this new generation think all the old weiters had nothing to teach them? Or that everything they wrote was racist? They all need to watch old good films and see how its done right.
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I really like how you expressed this. You nailed it!
Luke saves Grogu was the most 'joyful fan service StarWars' from the whole Disney castrastophy and the hate it recieved from Hollywood insiders is exactly what is wrong with modern TV.
And it was just cynical emotional manipulation that turned to ashes when we saw what they did with it in Booba Fat.
Though the majority of reactions I saw were super positive, I had the opposite reaction. There were sooo many other force sensitive and Jedi who could have answered Grogu’s call. I was hoping for something new, so the SW universe could move on from “Skywalker” and tell a new story. For example, Cal Kestis finds Grogu in a Holocron record, and he wants to keep him safe from the Empire. Heck, there were even Mara Jade possibilities. Again, just me. Glad you enjoyed it.
As a life long Star Wars EU Grandmaster Skywalker fan, I’ll take what I can get. And seriously, that Luke scene was enough to satisfy me because I knew, they wouldn’t just do a whole fucking show like that which is what we would want, but they never go the full measure, they always tease fans like that and then pull out the rug from under us haha
@KenobiStark1 As an EU fan you should see the Disney slop for what it is. A lazy rip-off.
@@gadfly149 Dude no kidding. Not mention the "death mask" faceswapping deep fake tech. the de-aging was so bad.
your comments are spot on and mirror exactly what I've been thinking while watching Dune: Prophecy. It seems very clear that the show runners and episode writers are not especially familiar with the Dune books and the Dune universe, in general. They are checking a variety of boxes that some sort of market analysis has told them viewers want to see, without understanding how everything properly fits into the Dune universe. A particularly egregious example is providing an origin story for the voice, where it very carelessly is revealed to be just some innate "power" that Valya discovers she has...by accident. It should rightfully be a process that the Sisterhood has developed and honed over centuries, by controlling the tone and timber of their voice and speech patterns to influence the actions of others
Exactly. They made it magic essentially
@@dffndjdjdIt's also 1000% on brand for the sisterhood to find and nurture such new abilities. If they'd been around when the first person discovered how to much consider that a useful development too. Admittedly her Voice of Command should be a rough and less polished skill until she became a reverend mother with tge ability to analyze exact how she did it, how it might be improved and how to teach it to others.
I'm more irked with every random person knowing way more about Fremen than they should
They never mentioned the voice loses it's effectiveness the more it is used on the same people. I suppose because then it would seem less "magic". I recall the books explain it as essentially an evolved form of hypnosis.
The show runner AND writers are wmn. Usually they don't understand or write characters that go through the "Hero's Journey". Hence, we get these Mary Sue archetypes that just are super because .... "Girl Power!". Dune-P is no different.
Remember Capt America actually nudged the hammer a tiny bit in that party scene which wiped the smug
look off Thor’s face and made him suspect that Steve was ”worthy”
Especially after Thor's own character development in his titular movie that also added to the payoff ❤
To me, Steve could have lifted Mjolnir but he didn't to not upset Thor.
@@adilsongoliveira can't remember exactly who put out the theory but there was a channel that theorized that Steve was still feeling guilty about not telling Tony about the Winter Soldier and his history with bucky. I like the theory but this scene with Steve gripping Mjolnir has been an enduring mystery.
@@annaprebleThat’s exactly the reason he wasn’t “worthy” at that time. Steve was hiding a “truth”.
@bladerunner27x yeah from winter soldier between ultron and infinity war? Makes sense- and of course the reason for his unworthiness being a sin of omission lol of course
The Shai-Hulud thing was cringe and misplaced, and totally unnecessary. It shows that the writers and director do not know Dune.
What did you expect when clearly they took Herberts son books as inspiration?
They know the new dune movies and not the books
"Underwhelming and flat." Sums up the entire season
Sisterhood of Dune was probably the most boring out of the books to even loosely and I mean very loosely adapt. It's another case of DEI winning out over common sense. If you're going to choose a story to adapt don't choose the snooze fest.
@@Mrtickleberries This comment shows your IQ. The issue isn't DEI. Women are written really well in the dune universe and are interesting, especially the sisters. The issue here is more broad. The general execution of the story in this season was just meh. DEI is irrelevant. The penguin is written well and was executed well for example and has a black supporting lead character. DEI is fine, it's good to include people from diverse background sets but the writing needs to be good.
@KAIZORIANEMPIRE And your comment shows yours. The sisterhood of Dune is the slowest and most boring of the Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson books and yes I've read them all. There were much more interesting books to adapt House Atriedes, House Harkonen and The Butlerian Jihad books were far better but they freely admitted they chose sisterhood for the girl power element. This would have been fine if they had made something interesting but they haven't in my opinion. Was Penguin excellent? yes it was, was that because of one actor or their skin colour? No, was the actor you're talking about excellent? yes and so we're the others and the writing was excellent as well.
@@Mrtickleberries let's keep the conversation standard. by your logic if they had adapted a different "less boring arch" it would have been a good enough series? keeping everything else equal. you think a better source material would have automatically meant better show ?
Here is where we disagree. DEI is not relevant here. even if they had a batter source material without good show runners and writing and execution it would have failed to meet expectations. So whether it's for girl power or not if it sucks it sucks.
please answer.... would the show have been good if they had the better source materials? lol
@@KAIZORIANEMPIRE Absolutely they could have butchered things even with better source material . However I see from one of your other comments you don't know much about the Dune universe and only watched the last few films, so subjectively how do you know they couldn't have made a better series with the books either? Perhaps instead of casting aspersions on my intelligence perhaps you could try reading the books in question and judge for yourself.
Nothing beats rereading Frank's books
I think it’s just an issue with the writers not being fans or even familiar with the source material. Hollywood would do good to hire a few nerds off of reddit to consult during the whole process and that would probably fix all this memberberry shit they’ve pulled
Take the recent Dune movies. Denis was an actual fan of the books and look at how well they did. The story strays from the source material, but you can tell that he at least understands and appreciates it enough to give it a proper treatment
It’s more than that though. The taint can come from so many places in the process that often what writers envision can be taken in a wholly unrecognizable direction.
Can’t say who to blame for certain, but I blame Brian Herbert. Safe bet the sellout doesn’t give af as long as he gets a check
hollywood would do good just leaving the entire dune franchise alone. Denis also just made another blade runner but in the desert. lost of cinematic shots, no substance.
@@dffndjdjd i just meant hollywood in general. Star wars is having the same problem with most of the movies and tv shows seeming to be completely disconnected from the stuff written under george lucas. I don’t follow star trek, but it seems to have the same issues as well
@@MawGinBoo I still don’t think you can blame it on writers without more information on a case by case basis. For instance Marvel and LucasArts are both owned by Disney, so we can rule out Disney as the problem. But that said, ultimately the end product does come down to leadership. So I would hold Kennedy to blame for the Star Wars mess.
As for Trek, there was a lot of nerd pushback on Discovery, most of it was unfair. That said the show’s premise, characters and stories were mid. But Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks are two of the best iterations of Trek ever made in my opinion. Shows made with love and care for what’s come before, as well as the themes and pacing of the original shows we love so much, being episodic, character-driven morality plays. But in the irony of ironies, Kurtzman, the producer behind all the new series, is being fired and because of his contract language he cannot be fired until all his shows are cancelled so they have cancelled both of them. Lower Decks just aired its last episode and I believe they have filmed two seasons of SNW to then cancel that as well.
Can’t say who is to blame for Dune. I didn’t like the Dune films, that’s how big (or toxic) of a fan I am of Frank’s work. I just thought they missed the forest for the trees and gave us a very superficial take on the novel. My hopes were raised with this series the first few episodes, annoying anachronisms aside, as it seemed to be actively building dune lore that was ignored in the films, but this machine plot just has me really worried. Machines for Herbert merely represented humans giving their agency to their tools until ultimately they were nothing without them. This was a part of the larger theme of his series that humans must evolve beyond our animal natures but also retain our humanity in order to ensure species survives and thrives across the depth of the future. But for Brian Herbert, they are merely boilerplate antagonists which we have seen over and over in science fiction.
All that said, not knowing more about this process of this show, I feel I can only hold Brian accountable as he is the one licensing rights and allowing these shows and films to be made. I can feel confident in holding Vilenueve accountable since he seems to have held the reins on everything for the films including the script itself. I just don’t think the confines of film runtimes and his superficial understanding of the novels would ever work in a way that satisfies me. Sadly, we will probably never see a good adaption in our lifetimes. But we have the books!
You are absolutely right. But with Brian Herbert involved, you just can't expect quality storywise.
He isn’t even 1/16 of the Writer that his Father was…
@@obsidian00not even any percentage at all. Brian was a career insurance salesman until ten years after his father died.
I’ve lost all interest in the Dune movie or series. After D -Part 2 and the way they portrayed the Fremen, especially what they did with Chani, I found it deeply disappointing
Im so glad you felt the same way about the Shai Hulud name drop. That was what kinda pulled me out of the show entirely and had me examining it way more closely than I should have. Like you said, it felt like such a misunderstanding of the world. My overall problem with the show is it just felt like a generic sci fi show with Dune elements. I am also hoping the production issues were why it was bad and that they sort those out next season.
Agreed the use of the term Shai Hulud was jarring. In that moment (if only brief) it was clear that the writer(s) had no actual respect for the source material and were just collecting a paycheck. There are millions of Dune fans on planet earth. There was no reason to allow non-Dune fans a chance to write episodes for this show and clearly they did as evidenced by this and the Ixian scene (which, oh my goodness that whole scene was terrible). For one, hunter seekers weren't bombs (they were stabbing weapons). For two, no honorable Atriedes would ever conspire to blow up a room full of innocent people in a terrorist bomb attack. For three, hunter seekers at the height of their technology, we're still man operated. The hunter seeker on this show was fully autonomous and carried a bomb that could kill hundreds (when it should have been a poisoned dart piloted by a guy hiding in a wall that can only respond to movement - can't aim it beyond that). There is an entire chapter in the Dune Encyclopedia written about hunter seekers that ANYONE could have read (Dune fan or not) before writing this horrible lore-shattering awful attempt at fanservice.
I understand writers just want a job most of the time....but I'll NEVER understand why any writer would sign on to write a show or movie based on novels they never read. Writers need to READ, too. They need to be nerds that can geek out over certain IPs. Why even write for something if you aren't a fan of it??? Or at least do some research once you get the job, you know? Sheesh.
Couldn't have said it better. Writers who couldn't care less is also why Cavill left 'the witcher'
@@Thurstan-du8mj Because this industry is plagued with nepotism
Spot on! Thor’s hammer and “I am iron man” are unforgettable.
Lately it feels like a lot of famous old IP's that have been taken over by different studios, or bought by them, fall into this hole. They use names and labels from the IP on screen expecting that is all they need to do to bring in that fan base, but they don't understand WHY those names, characters or things are important.
I knew it would be a bad show, since I saw Harkonnen Invented the Voice!! a bit too on the nose! the young princes and princesses humping different houses was bad storytelling, I havent read the books, but the houses wouldnt dialute their bloodlines with willy nilly im sure!
The pitfalls of capitalism will drag down everything lauded and loved.
Again, this doesn't feel like it takes place 10 000 years before first Herberts DUNE story. More like 200-300 years max. 5000 years passed in the books and in every time jump the world felt completely different, but you could see how actions of the characters led to the state world was in.
What I dislike, and this isn't exclusive to Dune, but in Dune Prophesy it is supposed to be 10,000 years before the books and movies. Yet, all the great houses are there, hating each other exactly as they will in later years. I mean, on Earth can we find Julius Trump and Marcus Biden fighting in Ancient Rome? that always destroys verisimilitude for me.
"Dune: sisterhood" was written as a self insert for dim narcissistic women then the focus group researchers realized that the only people watching would be basement dwelling men and tried to backtrack. Too bad they wrote all of the male characters in the show as one dimensional simps. Dune aesthetics and references aren't enough to get the core audience to care about some vapid nepo babies fan fict.
Rare moment of truth making it through TH-cam comment filters here. Good job wording this lol
Yea this is exactly right. thank you. the writers seemed to use Dune terms sort of like a large language model without any substantive understanding of the full meaning and context of the words. shai hulud is not just another word for sandworm for the reasons that you gave. There are so many other examples in the show including the Terminator like interpretation of the Butlerian Jihad.
The new Alien movie was another example .. little more than a two hour Easter Egg hunt.
I think this show did throw everything at the wall and it really didn’t stick in the end, but I’d hardly lay the blame solely at the studio’s feet. Of those Hollywood people who think we are all stupid, easily quantifiable, and that we just want to see all the boxes checked. As much as that’s a problem in Hollywood, one they can’t seem to recognize they are wrong about despite flop after flop and cratering ticket sales, I think this series has just as much, if not more blame with Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson.
In their shameless cash grab, they destroyed Frank’s legacy, the themes of his series he was building towards, for some anthropomorphic, contradictory robot villains that made zero sense and backstories that directly contradicted franks own words.
Part of the success of the original Dune series, is how so much of the history behind the series and characters, that deep time, is so shadowy and unexplained. It gives the series that patina of mystery and helps us see it as THE future.
We didn’t need to know where the sisterhood came from. How Holtzman engines were created and the spacing guild formed. What happened to Earth. How the sisterhood formed. Why the Atreides hate the Harkonnen.
To me it makes way more sense that the Atreides and Harkonnen represent different moral systems and this is why they oppose each other historically and politically, not because of some 10,000 year dispute over someone balking at genocide.
What Brian Herbert did was remove that mystery for sales of his pulp-level garbage books which have been mostly adapted for this series which is why it’s tainted in the eyes of us real fans of the original series.
Wonderfully put. Brian watered down father's legacy with a flood of poorly written excuses for Dune books.
One of the most telling things about Brian was that he became an insurance salesman before he became an author. The child of such a wonderful dreamer and philosopher decided to follow in his Dad's footsteps 10 years after his Dad died and only after completing a 20 year career selling insurance.
So, as one might expect, the Brian Herbert Dune books read as if they were written by a non-author, career insurance salesman who decided there was more money in shamelessly cashing in on his Dad's legacy than the living off the pension plan earned his life of being an insurance salesman.
To sum, Frank inspired millions in his generation and millions more in generations to come. Brian sold insurance plans.
He took his father's 2001 a space odyssey and turned it into Spaceballs. 🤦🤬 he is still behind the Tolkien estate for destroying a legacy IP though.
To this day, I'm sticking with the SciFi miniseries version as the closest and truest to the original story. though that had many flaws as well
Correct me if im wrong but they never mention once in the new films and tv show WHY THE SPICE IS SO IMPORTANT!
They never give a clear explanation how it gives the mutant navigators the clairvoyance to safely navigate the universe .
Then what are they even fighting over in the first place.
Not a fan of this whole series.
The first movie did mention that the navigators use it to predict safe paths, and that it makes it important, and the show showed us how common it is as a recreational drug when people are constantly using it in inhalers and straight up snorting it. If anything they’ll go deeper into the navigator’s role in the first movie, and the conspiracy to kill Muad’Dib. Wait at least till Denis completes the trilogy first. I can see the navigator’s telling Mohiam to suggest to the emperor to kill the Atreides and Paul in particular
They mention it in the first movie; it's done as a very brief educational-style monologue just before the scene with the Herald of the Change.
@@tgiacin435I wouldn't say it's a "common recreational drug," in Prophecy -- it's shown being used exclusively by rich people. We also don't really know if it's pure spice, or it's being cut/stretched with other substances -- maybe in Prophecy, they're doing Spicy Eight Balls of spice/fentanyl/cocaine all in one shot :P
In the first movie, when Paul is reading the projector-book to learn about Arrakis, it explains that Spice enables safe space travel - thus "making it the most valuable substance in the universe". The projector-book also mentions that Spice extends life expectancy.
The guild intentionally hyped up the anti aging/health benefits of spice to misdirect the general public
(including the great houses and Emperor) away from its more important role in interstellar navigation.
Most of the upper classes were spice addicts
only the benejeseret knew of its role in interstellar navigation as well as refining their powers which is why they were so quick to abandon Shaddam IV and at least pretend to accept Paul’s rule as he threatened to destroy the ecology that made spice possible.
This show needs to hire lore experts, who are familiar with frank and Brian writing
Case in point. Henry V (1944) with Lawrence Olivier. They had the keepers of arms and armour from the Wallace collection and Royal Armouries. So the top people for Medieval arms and armour, possibly in the World advising. Director was told catagorically, that knights being hoisted onto horse was a myth. Never happened in war. Only very rarely in jousting tornaments. As torney armour is often double the weight of field armour (too heavy to fight in). So people dont get injured. Cut to scenes of French knights being hoisted onto their horses.
Having the experts and listening and understanding the why from them. Sadly different things.
The last 15-20 years is all like this. Writers and directors don't want to hear from lore and technical experts. As said artsy folk cry "he is cramping my creative freedom!".
Until W.D and P really understand that when doing a long running franchise, or something with a lot of lore, like Dune. They have to colour within the lines of the existing lore. Expand with a new picture is fine, but within the lines.
The not colouring in the lines is why all the post Enterprise Trek, is average to bad generic sci-fi with Starfleet decals stuck on it. It is similar and in someways worse to what happened to the Star Wars films. Both franchises involved JJ Abrams and Alex Kurtzman and SecretHideout/Bad Robot. Which ruined the two biggest Sci-Fi franchieses going.
I’m pretty sure Elaine is quite familiar with both lol 🤷♂️😂
F Brian Hebert. Sellout. He wrote pulp level garbage and destroyed his father’s legacy for money. He didn’t write a single book that even touched on a fraction of the style and themes of his father. It’s like comparing a comic strip to a Pulitzer novel
Too late…
The Shai-Hulud name drop was part of an overall problem with both the series, and also with Villeneuve's movies. A big element of Dune is the mystery of Arrakis - everyone overlooks the Fremen because no-one knows anything about them. Greed for the spice means that the Imperium hasn't paid any attention to anything else. The conversations, filmbooks etc. that are vast (and accurate) encyclopedias of information on Arrakis and the Fremen are jarring, to say the least.
I still don't get why would novices have collective hallucinations of a memory of a still living person they never even met
7:46 I think we should probably give the show a pass for using "Shai Hulud" so much.
"Shai Hulud" is probably a loan word.
There are several languages used (even ancient Egyptian) in the Duniverse. For this discussion, the most important are Chakobsa and Galach.
Galach is the common language for the Imperium. Think of it like English in non-English speaking countries. It is descended from English and several Slavic languages.
Chakobsa is an uncommon language used by the Fremen. The name comes from Bzhedug (a real-life dialect of Circassian) and means "the language of hunters". It was a secret language used by medieval Circassian knights and princes. In the Duniverse, Chakobsa is a fusion of French, Romani, Arabic, Slavic, Greek, Sanskrit, and Hebrew.
When the Imperium learned of Spice, the Fremen were likely more friendly with outworlders. The brutal Harkonnen occupation happened LONG after Spice's discovery. (The Harkonnens had only controlled Arrakis for 80 years before Leto Atreides took control.)
When a trade item is discovered in a foreign land, it is common to call that item by the name the foreigners use. These are called "loan words". Some examples are "ketchup" (Chinese), "coffee" (Arabic), and chocolate (Nahuatl).
What makes this hypothesis even more likely is that there are real-life creatures known as "sandworms": Alitta virens. In the Duniverse, there are probably other non-Shai Hulud sandworms. Using the name "Shai Hulud" for the sandworms of Arrakis would have ensured that there was never any confusion about which sandworms were being discussed.
Another point in favor of this is that exotic and far-off places can become very fashionable when that far-off place is providing an important trade good. Oriental culture became very fashionable in England as tea became a more important part of British society. And while Arrakis might be a hellhole, it is CERTAINLY exotic.
So, at the time of Dune Prophecy, a lot of people were likely using the name "Shai Hulud" because the giant sandworms had caught people's attention. But as time went on, knowledge of Arrakis became more commonplace/mundane.
Most people didn't know the connection between the sandworms and spice. For the Imperium, Spice was the important thing. Sandworms probably became a curiosity that most people were not aware of, like the bioluminesence of Mosquito Bay, Puerto Rico.
Great and thorough work, obviously made with true passion. I loved this video 👌
The whole arc with Theodosia was terrible. I agree about name dropping Votian without context. Griffins death wasn’t explained. We just cut to the funeral and then Tula’s betrayal. The way of it still wasn’t explained even if it was hinted at the end. Shai’Halud is a term that wouldn’t have been known by anyone who wasn’t dealing intimately with the Fremen. My overall opinion is if you read the BH/KJA fanfic then this series probably worked best for you. I think Denis Villinaeuve is attempting to remain within Frank Herbert’s canon while adding texture and context to the story for those who haven’t read the books and delivering some interesting Easter Eggs for those who have. It’s a delicate balance. Something the series failed to achieve. I felt there were too many perspectives to the storytelling. They should’ve picked one or two and dived into them. Instead there are too many thread that end up going nowhere.
I have a feeling they’ll go over Griffin’s death in the next season since the season ended with Valya on Arrakis. As far as Theodosia is concerned, her mission is yet to be completed. She was captured, and is a prisoner as they planned. And Tula is there too. A face dancer and reverend mother? They could escape easily
Underwhelming is a very good word for their use of easter eggs. I think a lot of it stems from how these facets of the story were taken from the Brian Hebert/KJA stories, and THEIR use of easter eggs... I mean, they didn't just reference the original books, they retconned the timeline to do their own thing with the origins of the various factions.
So, to me, when I see the mere EXISTENCE of Suk Doctors, Mentats, Fremen, etc... THOUSANDS OF YEARS ahead of when they originated in the original timeline, it ceases to be a cool easter egg that they're incorporated, and they become anachronistic anomalies that shouldn't exist, and rip me out of the universe.
Most of the factions we are familiar with were in existence in some form or another when the Battle of Corrin occurred
It’s hyperbolic to say that these factions didn’t exist for thousands of years after the Battle of Corrin when all were up and running within a hundred years of the transition of House Butler into House Corrino
Just saying…
@@mpalfadel2008Official Timeline from the Dune Encyclopedia:
Forgive my formatting, as I copy pasted from a text document into the notification reply section...
200-108 THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD.
108 Holtzman returns and is destroyed by forces of the Jihad.
ca. 100 Ixians, refugees from the Jihad, led by Aurelius Venport, discover TUPILE, the Sanctuary Planet(s).
88 THE BATTLE OF CORRIN.
86 FOUNDATION OF HOUSE ATRETDES when Demetrios Atreides is made Baron Tantalos in reward for aiding the Corrinos.
84 First MELANGE-guided journey through hyperspace, by Norma Cenva.
Apparently, by this time, they had discovered the Spice Melange. However, there are no Fremen on Arrakis until thousands of years later, as will be shown later. Also, the show seems to have merged the end of the "machine war" with the Battle of Corrin, which muddies the waters.
12 B.G.- 70 A.G. The Reign of SAUDIR I, "The Great."
10 Corpus Luminis Praenuntiantis (the future Spacing Guild) begins negotiations with the Empire.
10-5 THE GREAT FINANCIAL SYNOD, on Aerarium IV, creates CHOAM.
0 THE LION THRONE, THE SPACING GUILD, and CHOAM (as the arm of the Landsraad) combine to establish the form of human society for the next ten thousand years.
AFTER GUILD
8 WE ARE HERE in the Dune: Prophecy series (116 years after the END of the machine wars in 108 BG)
otherwise, if they wrongly count the battle of Corrin as the last battle of the machine war, we'd be in the year 32.
123-184 Reign of NEGARA II.
207 Thomas Atreides helps restore Elrood II, and is made Duke of Jaddua.
337 THE GREAT CONVENTION is ratified.
385-388 THE USHASH REBELLION, the last significant armed resistance to the Empire.
388 Saudir III designates SALUSA SECUNDUS as PRISON PLANET.
390 Wallach I begins use of Salusa Secundus as a training ground for the SARDAUKAR.
1234 THE ORDER OF MENTATS is founded by Gilbertus Albans, originally on the planet Septimus,
and moved to Tleilax a decade later.
1487 The Corrinos shift the. Imperial Seat to Kaitain.
2800 Elrood V gives Poritrin, third planet of Epsilon Alangue, to House Maros. Siridar Charles Baron
Mikarrol, planetary governor of Terra, sends two million ZENSUNNI to Poritrin, beginning the
Zensunni Migration.
THIS IS THE START OF THE ZENSUNNI MIGRATION - there are NO FREMEN on Arrakis at this time.
(The Zensunni existed since 1381 BG.
The Zensunni wandering didn't begin until 2800 AG.
The Fremen are the REMNANTS of the Zensunni Wanderers.)
4492 Poritrin is given to House Alexin, and the Sardaukar are sent to remove the Zensunni, sending five
million to BELA TEGEUSE and five million to SALUSA SECUNDUS.
In other entries, we find that 9 generations of Fremen lived on Salusa Secundus, and in this timeline, this matches up with my estimate of 800ish years, that I assumed prior to finding this timeline.
5122 First FACE DANCERS appear as entertainers at the Court of Corrin XIV.
5295 Ezhar VII releases the Zensunni on Salusa Secundus, sending them to ISHIA, second planet of Beta
Tygri:
6049 Zensunni on Bela Tegeuse are transported again, with the majority sent to Harmonthep, and the
remainder to ROSSAK, the fifth planet of Alces Minor.
ca. 6600 A Sayyadina on Rossak discovers a plant whose ingestion unlocks the "voices within."
THIS IS THE START OF BENE GESSERIT USING ANCESTRAL MEMORY. (about 6,600 years AFTER the show says they could do it...) Interesting, that a Sayyadina is who discovered it - typically, Sayyadina are Fremen... and Zensunni were present on Rossak at this time.
ca. 6800 Harmonthep, a satellite of Delta Pavonis, is destroyed by unknown causes.
7193 Zensunni on Rossak buy passage to ARRAKIS from the Spacing Guild. By this time, all Zensunni from both Ishia and Rossak have reached Arrakis. -
NOW THERE ARE FREMEN ON ARRAKIS.
(From the entry on Fremen:
"When the Fremen gathered on Arrakis in 7193, they encountered a climate that was to have an enormous impact on those attitudes.")
For all this time, since before the Jihad, the imperium had been harvesting spice on Arrakis.
I only point this out, because people like to claim the Fremen were the natives of Arrakis, and the Imperium was intruding on their land and taking their resources... when the Fremen were more like squatters in the land... only living there because nobody else wanted to live there... except those working on spice mining.
Prior to their gathering on Arrakis, their "forced migration" was to use them as seed colonies, and forced labor.
Imperial raiders often took Zensunni Wanderers (Fremen) as slaves, thus building in the Fremen a resentment and anger ("Never to forget. Never to forgive.") that eventually erupted on the Imperium when they had a figurehead to rally behind (an excuse).
On Arrakis, they mostly lived in the southern hemisphere, where Imperial technology failed in the desert, keeping them, and their number, safe. Those who CHOSE to live in the northern hemisphere were doing so willingly, to put themselves in a position to strike against the Harkonnen in the time of the books.
8711 The Atreides family is awarded the Siridar-Dukedom of CALADAN.
9751 ELACCA drug in relatively common use.
9846 Invention of HUNTER-SEEKER.
ca. 10000 Invention of the DISTRANS on Ix.
10092 Semuta extraction process discovered.
10140 LETO ATREIDES (Duke Leto I) born.
10154 LADY JESSICA born.
10155-10165 GURNEY HALLECK a Harkonnen slave on Giedi Prime.
10158 DUNCAN IDAHO (the human) born.
10175 PAUL ATREIDES born.
And from the appendix of Dune:
SUK SCHOOL OF MEDICINE
Founded on Kaitain in 2401 by a group of Tsai practitioners and financed by the Emperor Kenric JH al-Kam. Originally established as the Imperial Tsai Medical College, it was later renamed the Suk School of Medicine to honor Dr. Faisan Suk, physician to the Imperial Family during the reign of Corrin VIII (2727-2756).
@ you did mention the Suk school, which seems like a accurate representation of poorly managed lore
But you also mentioned the Fremen and Mentats…
@@mpalfadel2008 Apparently, my copy pasted timeline was auto-deleted by youtube...
Dune Prophecy was already working at a disadvantage the moment they decided to base it on the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson novels.
The problem was further compounded by having Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson involved in the production.
All this was further compounded by the fact that FEW people are Dune scholars. Yes, there are many people who have read Dune, Dune Messiah, and Children of Dune. Fewer have read God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, and Chapterhouse: Dune.
But how many have read the Dune Encyclopedia (that was AUTHORIZED by Frank Herbert, despite what the Herbert Estate now says), or the Songs of Muad'dib? How many have read The Sabres of Paradise by Lesley Blanch, or the Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T.E. Lawrence? How many fans are familiar with Sunni Islam or Zen Buddhism?
The fact is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to provide Dune fan service when you don't understand the franchise that fans have fallen in love with.
Franchises based on comics are less complicated, which is why you see better fan in the MCU than in other franchises. Series like Fallout also have an advantage in that computer games are less complicated as well.
If your looking for bad fan service, you don’t have to go further than Discovery Season1, where the look like they put Lorca’s office in the Star Trek Props Department. You couldn’t swing a Bat’leth in there without hitting an Easter egg or 5 from a tribble to a Gorn Skeleton. But then, the whole show was a joke so what should we expect
I think the concept of this series was a good idea, but I would have approached it much differently. I would have avoided prequel characters and plots, and instead focused on more of an anthology where each season is a different era, different characters, different conflict. And over the course of the series we come to understand the evolution of the sisterhood’s mission, the very mission Leto II takes the mantle of, which would go a long way to helping non-readers enjoy the series and hopefully future films. And through the course of that we could see all these elements come together unlike this series which just anachronistically throws them all in right at the beginning.
I would have scaled the plot and show concept down even more. I would just have a show called The Sisterhood (no overt use of the word Dune) and set it in the Dune Universe 10,000 years before Paul.
The show's main plot is about the journey to become a Reverend Mother (some acolytes get all the way there, some don't). Along the way acolytes struggle with universal young adult issues like pregnancy (keep the Tula's child arc), struggle relating to those from other backgrounds (have an Atriedes sister and Harkonnen sister there), physically demanding teachers (think training in the rain, hand under the bunson burner body training)...
And the show should only briefly leave the school on Wallach IX for scenes when students explain their past in a 5-10 minute flashback scene (eg Valya talking about growing up in a whaling village).
What this would accomplish is growing the female Dune fanbase, but more importantly it would resonate on a universal level. Everyone can relate to strict teachers and trying to adapt to high school life after childhood.
And I would base the show on Frank Herbert's Chapterhouse of Dune in terms of how sisters are supposed to act (never to challenge a superior, always 100% obedient... Even to the point of death).
If it flopped? Ah, it was barely a Dune thing anyway. A flop on "barely a Dune show" won't hurt the franchise's momentum. If the show succeeds? Congrats, you have a low budget hit and you can always add new acolytes to train if or send others on missions if they leave the show.
So, keep the classic BG robes for instructors and plain school outfits for the acolytes. Sprinkle lore throughout (prana bindu training, fear of possession, Sisterhood above all unshakeable core belief, Truthsaying, ect) but only use Dune lore in a natural way (e.g. Class, "today's lesson is about Truthsaying) that seamlessly is a part of a show that is about young women at a boarding school in a strange and wonderful sci fi franchise.
The show is alright, but I’m be real. I don’t see this making it past season 2. I’m honestly not clamoring to see season 2, didn’t really leave me with a feeling like “wow can’t wait to see season 2 and the mysterious person”.
I personally think they canceled raised by wolves for this show. Raised by wolves to me was way better, had a very interesting plot.
TV series used to be one episode a week and shot very near to the date of the screening , which gave the writers directors and everyone else who worked ın them a viewer feedback , if they did not listen that series would be cancelled fast. we lost that feedback element with the streaming service and their whole season at once shot and delivered approach. even if they release it once a week the season is already done by the time the first episode drops anyway. also the number of episodes dropped so fast ( like from 22-24 to 6-8 ) that it no longer tells a wide story but a single narrow event seems like
Dang thats a great point. Also we dont get 20 episodes a season anymore so theres not enough time to do a course corrections.
The lower number of episodes is definitely for the better. The budget can be better used per episode and there’s very few 20 episode tv shows that are in the top series of all time. Look at CW. More episodes means more fillers, poorer writing and poorer quality
I didn't like the new Dune movies aside from some designs, a lot of it annoyed me.
I really didn't like any Dune books outside of Frank Herbert's six, they don't do much other than mess up camomile.
So a modern day show based on Brian Herbert's book written in the style of Game of Thrones' worst scenes didn't make it past episode 2 for me.
I'll just keep reading the original books over and over.
"Canon", not "camomile"
What the hell is my phone smoking.
@@BbNaBI recommend reading the Dune Encyclopedia as well. I too will never even glance at a Brian book, but the DE is not a Brian book and it had Frank's blessing (written before Heretics so it only covers some years after Leto 2's assassination).
Brian, being the asshat that he is, banned republishing of the DE, but you can read a PDF file of it online with a little bit of searching on Google. And as a bonus, the writing of DE is as close to "Frank-like" as it gets without being Frank. In fact, Frank and the main author of DE were going to write a Butlerian Jihad book based on that entry in the DE (and haha that wonderful encylopedia entry has nothing to do with Terminators or any of Brian's nonsense).
They should have introduced the battle of Corrin at least a full episode. There are key essentials elements that could've been be explored:
The motivations for the Jihad against machines;
The discovery of spice and how it became the highest commodity;
The philosophical, political and religious implications of what defined humans and the establishment of Orange Catholic Bible;
The reformation of the government and the rise of House Corrino;
2:00 This was almost as bad as the Acolyte. The moments I felt most happy is when the credits rolled from the 1st episode and I realized I gave this a shot though I knew it was going to be bad and still watched the entire episode. The 2nd part was realizing I had better choices of things to watch from other non-woke streaming services.
I'm glad to see that you talked about Picard S3. Up to that point in your video. I thought about how S3 is such a great example of fan service.
All great points esp Shai Hulud - but you have to recognize that all BH/KJA understand is fan service. It’s already corrupted. Meaning yes, invent new things instead of reference things that will not exist for thousands of years. The thinking machine plot has some promise as it makes sense there would still be a group of people unwilling to go along with the ban. All the same I expect it to be mishandled poorly. Could they have had the guy be a smuggler instead of an Ixian directly? Of course but fan service. I expect most Dune fans over the years have seen Star Wars and what it has become and do not want any of it.
Dune Prophecy dumped stuff in the plot just to say "see, we did/said the thing! Are you entertained?" There where Easter eggs that contradicted Frank's lore. Just there to be there. "Look, an Artriedes!"
As a Dune fan since 40 years, I didn't even like Villeneuve's version. Dune deserves the Peter Jackson of the LOTR trilogy and a gigantic budget. And no DEI hires, no writing and interpretation for the modern audience, no extensive CGI, no fan service.
TBH we're just never going to get another Peter Jackson style LOTR adaptation, not in this day and age of wokeness. I know the word get flung around but we gotta start calling it what it is now, that's infecting everything these days. So where "Dune" is concerned I see it as the fans are actually lucky they get the Villanueva adap the way it was, because if it wasn't him, a modern Dune adap today under Hollywood could have fair far worse. I don't blame Denis for little DEI practices like race-swapping Kynes, that was forced on him by the ideologically driven studio itself, who basically told him in as much words - "the DEI rules state there must be atleast ex-mount of this color in the cast or the movie doesn't fly, so if you don't allow some DEI changes somewhere we'll just remove you and get a (younger) Director who will do things exactly how we want." So Denis went along with it, but I think he handled it well tbh.
One more thing to understand is that Dune is a really hard story to adapt on the big screen and I feel Denis did a damn good job overall, the best anyone could of really, especially under these times.
It simple they firgured it out a long time ago. DUNE can not be made into a movie or TV show faithfully. They keep trying anyway.
@@oldleatherhandsfriends4053 The same was said of Lord of the Rings.
Why does having a non-exclusively white cast bother you?
Luke coming in and wiping out the Death Troopers is peak fan service
Thank the Maker I never even started watching this. Ever since the failure of Game of Thrones I think twice before investing so much time into any new show.
I'm so glad someone else picked up on the flatness of how this show tried to ride on the heels of Denis' big screen Dune movies with this mediocre written TV show. I don't know the book material well, but I hella consumed the bigscreen movies. The use of "Shai Halud" coming from any of the non-Fremen mouths seemed so silly. Especially since it was so early in "the history" of the Dune universe. So many characters so casually know the details of what's happening on Arrakis? They know and use Fremen words? I'm not saying it's out of place for a particular noble to maybe have an education on it MAYBE, but this story is thousands of years before the recent films and that leaves a LOT of time for people to evolve in a world with such technology and the rate that humans develop and solve our own problems (if we don't die out). A lot of Fremen ways should be known, or even exist because they haven't been developed yet but this show drops in as if Arrakis, and every other corner of the universe is exactly the same as 10,000 years later except the state of the people and power of the Houses.
As if Shai Hulud wasnt bad enough, they called them Makers on several occasions
Perfectly put. These references lacks a genuine thought behind them.
Studios only understand "Memberberries".....
Studios: “look we did the thing!!0
Meh, as long as they lean into the DV version as the source material for lore, they will consistently fall short from what Frank Herbert set forth. For me, as a fan of Dune, it will never track. They will never be able to meet my expectations. Not because my expectations are too high, but because DV has produced an unrecognizable pile of garbage. It's not Dune, has different lore, and he's not done destroying the story.
Try streaming the Syfy miniseries - the most definitive versions of lore ... they've been effectively wiped away. Both Dune and Children of Dune. A nod, though, to the earlier movie. It didn't capture the essence of Herbert's world quite as well, but it did a fine job given the film length.
The facedancers! So right! The introduction of the face dancer felt empty and I couldn't figure out why and you put truth to it. I really liked your interpretation of what was done with Dune prophecy. I guess I liked some of the show because I plan to watch the second season while I refuse to watch the 2nd season on Rings of Power.
I think problem with fan service in this case the story setting doesn't look, feel or sound like it takes place 10,000 years in the past of Dune.
I thought it did. I mean civilization changes rapidly in general. Just compare us today to 10000 years ago, and see how things change
I thoguth the core idea behind Dune was that humanity had hit a stagnant point in technological development. So whats the point?
Do you mean it should've been different since that's so long in the past (difference between stone age and now from our perspective) or that it's not similar enough? I think it should've been more similar in terms of themes but would've liked if it had deviated more such that they actually show the transition from futuristic to stagnant but that would've introduced a while new pre-BG timeline but even a glimpse to show the transition to stagnation would've been nice
@ not so much stagnant in a technological sense, but stagnant on a species wide level.
Fan service done darn near perfectly --
Amazon's "Fallout"
The game's aesthetics were incorporated into the story, the characters and their motivations without apology. Without apology, that's the most important part. That's why the fan service worked so well. They weren't done with a wink. They instead contributed to the world, the characters and their motivations without trying to justify their existence or explain them in real world terms.
Stimpacks, for example. There was no attempt to explain or justify their existence. But neither were they hidden or apologized for. When Lucy first grabs one and jabs it into her stomach, and then a few moments later we watch her heal, she doesn't mutter under her breath some stupid line that tries to explain how something like them would work in the real world. She just instead goes on about her business and we are left to accept that stimpacks are something in this world that magically heals mortal wounds.
The same went for ghouls. There was no "real world" attempt to explain their existence. They are just simply accepted as a real, functional part of the Fallout world. The show's fx crew even built four real, functional sets of power armor, as well as a complete vault set.
I have to completely disagree with your assessment of Fallout (tv)
The thing was a complete mess from beginning to end
It seemed very half assed n not very well thought out
@@mpalfadel2008 I'm so surprised by this, I thought it was exceptionally done lore wise, minus the timeline for shady sands.
Other franchises that had really good adaptations:
- Twisted Metal
- Street Fighter ( Just "Assassins fist" )
- Warcraft ( Just the Orc plot )
Ah, another Todd fanboy praising a mediocre adaptation of FO.
Visually, sure, it looks great; on the surface.
But, real fans, not band wagon fans of a trendy franchise, know how much that show sucked.
The explanations are because they think we're all morons.
She’s a face dancer that was not face dancing the entire series. lol Why? Makes no sense to me.
I still enjoyed a good portion of this series despite several glaring issues. Glad it was renewed and hopefully will have a great season 2
I think my favorite "fan service", and I wouldn't even call it fan service, but it was a nice touch. Was seeing Richard Hatch on the reboot of Battlestar Galactica. He was only on the show for a few episodes and played an incarcerated terrorist that was given amnesty for his assistance. It was really nice seeing him again.
Prophesy is boring because of incompetent producers. I felt no tension or suspense. Boeing has had major problems with bad executives, who were financial guys. They didn't know engineering, and people died. With this Dune series, they don't understand the entertaining weirdness of Herbert's universe. Instead, the writers paint by numbers. Many of the actors are reading their lines.
A society that existed 10,000 years ago would be absolutely nothing like what exists today. It's kind of irritating that there's very little difference between Villeneuve's Dune and Dune Prophesy. I guess the producers figured they wouldn't get the larger audience without the similarities
I can just imagine an early pre production meeting where they say where’s this and where’s that. Then they’re told this is 10,000 years before and so they don’t exist yet and then the big heads just say, the fans won’t understand that. Like we can’t understand that things change in 10,000 years. And this is how we get Shan Hulud and Face Dancers… smh
More importantly they would have had to do a lot more worldbuilding, both for new audiences and for those that that seen Villeneuves Dune and have expectations. And there is a limit how much you can insert into a story naturally without it becoming boring or a distraction from the actual story.
I was annoyed whenever any scene featured Vorian for more than ten seconds; the acting is so uninspired (which i blame on casting more than the actor) and the character development nonexistent. I couldn't tell you anything about his personality after watching the whole season. Which is annoying when he has a fairly meaty role as a betrayer and revolutionary.
"Key Janglers of Dune"
This is why back in the day the entertainment industry would avoid getting into these fictional worlds because they truly knew nothing about them and half assed attempts would fail.👎
Yes. The overreliance on the "thinking machines" concept really revealed how lazy the writing was. This story is set not long after the Butlerian Jihad. You would think that recent proximity would be reflected by a much greater degree of visceral horror towards the idea of humanity using thinking machines for ANY reason. They had some elements of this with the faction of Bene Gesserit that was so fanatically opposed to their use...but the rest of society seemed to not even care, despite having so recently escaped a near extinction level conflict with those same machines. It didn't make sense that people were more against the idea of using them ten thousand years later, than they were right after the war, where there are still living people around with first hand knowledge of how dangerous they are.
It was like the only people in the show who didn't approve of thier use, were all the antagonists in the story. That doesn't make any sense at all to what Herbert was trying to portray with them. He emphasised a lot about humanity's natural capabilities, and how advanced technology was, in fact a dangerous crutch that only held the species back. It was nothing to be celebrated.
1. You can't create fan service if you're not even fans in the first place - Hollywood executives don't even know what they're producing, as their motivation is network ratings and revenue, and thus, they hire writers to fulfil that, instead of writers who know the lore/literature.
2. Hollywood's idea of fans is people with agenda, e.g. LGBT, DEI, race politics etc. Not the actual fans of a franchise. Just look at the many examples of shows in the last decade purposely made to virtue-signal their agenda, at the expense of fan expectations. E.g. Rings of Power.
seems like they used brian's crap rather than Frank's vision! looks crappy!
One kind I really dislike is the bait-and-switch fan service, like the Mandarin in Ironman 3 and Quicksilver in Wandavison.
In case of the Dune Prophecy it has to be the blue glowing eyes in the dark not being God Emperor Leto, but some random machine.
Although this clearly reveals that this series is going to be more ‘Brianesc’ than ‘Frankinian’.
Every aspect of the fan service just felt disingenuous to me. I wanted a unique origin story for the Bene Gessrit. What I felt we got was some weird attempt at Game of Thrones with a Dune skin. And the fact that they end up on Arrakis (sorry for the minor spoiler...)...this just feels very narrowly focused and half baked. Completely relying on the movie's success rather than trying to be good in its own right. I'll watch a second season if they have one because it wasn't entirely terrible and I would be curious to see if they could build interest...but all-in-all, the first season was 1000% carried on the actors they chose, because the story felt meh.
I think Cap didn’t try to lift Mjolnir. He decided there was no real gain in lifting it at that time. He’s not a show off.
It you’re totally right, it helped set up that great moment later.
I liked your chat with the chaps at Gom Jabbar and agree that hopefully, series 2 might have a better approach to things...
Especially if they pay any attention to the likes of yourselves and the importance such fan representation on our behalf holds.
I think the 'Shai hulud' thing, they name drop it probably because they thought it might give the dialog some form of gravitas, some awe.
Hollywood Exec: Let’s find everything we can on the Dune saga. You there! Read all of the books and report back to me tomorrow. We start production first thing
Fans: Wowwie! They’re making a Dune prequel! Yea!
Researcher: Sir, here is everything I know about the Dune saga, and here’s the exact chronology.
Hollywood Exec: That’s waaaaaaay too much information!
Writer: we could do five seasons going into great detail and produce awesome special effects giving the fan base what they’re looking for. Maybe follow up with a movie partnering with Villeneuve?
Hollywood Exec: Shut your pie hole. You’re fired! I want six episodes with a crap load of dialogue that leaves gaps and goes nowhere. That’ll keep us under budget and then we can green light another boring season getting the fans’ hopes up and gaining more subscriptions, heh, heh, heh.
Fans: What else is there to watch? Hey Dune 1984 is on!
Fin
The first few episodes I thought was a really decent start then it dropped off a cliff the last few. Why did the princess have the same truthsense ability that the seasoned fully trained sisters had? Why did the Emperor kill himself as a final act of free will when he already knew that they wanted him to die?? Writing just became more braindead longer it went on
The show jumped the shark for me when Desmond survived a bombed out building landing on him. What is the point of even trying to kill this guy. In a later episode (again, after an entire multi-story building collapsed on him) he gets stabbed point blank in the gut by a sword and that has zero effect on him aside from he has to hold his hand over the bloody wound.
I think I saw one of the acolytes have a very brief vision of honeycomb-faceted shiny metal eyes.
Personally I think they tried to get in as many references to the Dune universe as they could, making too many underdeveloped plotlines. Try to get all these just gets you lost, But in that same Dune Universe its not that easy just to pick one growp, one person or even one plate to put in the centre, because its all somehow connected. And in those connections it went not particularly well.
Try to get in a face dancer, which btw took a very long time to perfect, and an Ixiaan without really explaing why they were in there, and not in the least an Atreides who wants to blow up a lot of people. If an Atreides ever would do that?
The show should've taken place right before the wars with the thinking machines.
Having bright blue flashing lights on illegal contraband meant to be hidden from everyone. This is the entire show.
Could not have said it better myself, for all of the reason & examples you gave 💪
It feels like this show was written by someone that only read the Dune wiki page
It was really just a show for feminists to power trip, not dune at all, bs dei feminist woke garbage, not because of the women being powerful, but because of the obvious purposeful casting of all ugly women besides tula, and complete lack of genuine will to understand and explore the dume universe
Young Valya was decent looking, but yes you are correct it’s girl power rubbish
Thank you, Nerd Cookies.
My pleasure!
You might be overlooking something: lack of skill on the part of the creators. It's not easy to seamlessly weave fan-service into the narrative, so not everyone can do it.
A story of the origins of how and what led to the Bene Gesserit would have been nice. Instead we got this series of eye motifs to try and justify the machine implanted in Desmond's eye, with an already existing Sisterhood.
I just don't know, it would seem that it would take more than 100 years to fully disassociate an empire from computers. Some sci-fi rush through their timelines. I love Mass Effect but the time between the First Contact war and the time of the first game, has humanity so tightly integrated in the galactic community in a few decades.
It's funny to hear certain people come around to what others have been saying. Maybe she will be able to say it in a way that won't be dismissed.
Best example of failed fanservice, "Game Of Thrones" not allowing Jon Snow to take on and fight the Night King after soo much set up and hinting. Instead Dumb and Dumber subverted the hell out of everyone's expectations by giving such an unearned moment to Arya, thereby diminishing and ultimately destroying the show. The definition of a creative brainfart.
The worst one for me was the voice. Not only were they trying too hard with the Dune memberberries but they also stuck in GOT memberberries which made it even worse.
Excellent commentary
It’s like they didn’t have a reverence for the material. If you saw the last supper but it was painted by someone who didn’t have a connection to the Bible, it wouldn’t be as great. Art must reflect something of meaning to the one making it.
Using Freman terms for sand worms and a character just happens to be a or of one of the houses we know of or just happening to be a face dancer. Good catch, I was thinking along simular lines.
"Clunky" is apt description of fan service in "Dune: Prophecy". FYI, a conventionally delivered bomb would've been as a effective as a Hunter-Seeker and cheaper, too. That rebellion was vaguely defined. The name drop of Shai-Hulud can have a reasonable explanation. Arrakis and the Spice were recent discoveries, within the last century. A 50 meter or larger worms would be mythical to everyone that hears about it. IMO, it wouldn't be a stretch that the Fremen name be widely used.
Weirdly I totally loathe the BH+KJA fanfiction, but I liked the way "Dune Prophecy" used Thinking Machines. I actually appreciated the emphasis on absolutely everyone in the young Imperium's ruling class being massive hypocrites about the Jihad's new religious proscriptions.
Making the show itself should be the fan service. Just make the fucking shows😂
Nobody asked for the series just like nobody asked for Brian to write the book.
I hadnt really thought of this in my own watching, but its spot on. We watched maybe three episodes, but it never really felt like Dune... more like Game of Thrones in space.
Yep, Hollyweird is broken.
As a Dune fan I watched, As a Dune fan I shall walk into the desert for my reward.
Face dancer should have replaced the Emperor after discovering his body or something like this. Or that could have failed, but be the reason she was there rather than to swap the princess, since she didn't even follow through with that.
I agree with your take on the series 100%
If they had never mentioned Tleilaxu and Ixians, it might have meant Deneuve had plans for them at some point, so hands off. The fact they went ahead and off-handedly included them to me means Deneuve never had any plans to ever introduce them. That makes me more disappointed with his interpretation of the story.
I made it about 30 min into one episode before I concluded the show wasn't worth my time. At this point I just assume ALL shows and movies are slop until I see evidence otherwise. I knew the movies would be good as soon as I knew it was Dennis Villaneueve and he had broad control over it.
I thought the series was garbage, atleast so far.. Seemed so poorly pieced together and barrows waaaay to much, instead of being unique...
There shouldn't be any fan service in Dune. It's not a comic or a cartoon or a video game. There is many online who conflate Nerd culture with Dune, it's just not that sort of thing although it might seem that way from a superficial reading. People who want it to be like GOT or Star Trek will be disappointed.
Dune is not Star Wars. The fan service is important but Nerd Cookies is right: it has to strike right.
Dune is difficult because its more cerebral than the other sci-fi franchises. The strength of Dune is in its profound science implications: what if we did have Mentats (i.e. DNA based computing)?
That in addition to the lore references cited by Nerd Cookies.
Bro, it wasn't a bunch of outsiders referring to the worm as shai hulud. It's a cult of extremely knowledgeable sorceresses... Who have a direct hand in religion and what it means around the Galaxy. Also, fans of the recent movies might be a little help in understanding that the sand worms are Shai Hulud
I think Dune prophecy sucks. I got to about half way through 3rd episode and gave up. Of all the storylines for a show, it picks the most uninteresting. I guess a show about a bunch of Karens manipulating powerful men is all the rage for young people.
It comes down to writing. Where did all the talented writers go? Did this new generation think all the old weiters had nothing to teach them? Or that everything they wrote was racist? They all need to watch old good films and see how its done right.