Stopping by to verify my bleach to water ratio. We're in Florida and we released 30 healthy OE negative (we tested) butterflies, we only had one casualty. We bleached all eggs, food and containers fairly regularly. Thank you so much for all the information!!
Hearing you say that each egg deserves respect, made me feel so seen. I carefully snip each little egg I find on my milkweeds. I dropped a snipping once and I spent a long time hunting for it on the ground until I found it. I was told it's no big deal. But that's just not how I see it. I see each egg as a full butterfly needing a chance. It came to my yard. Like the hummingbirds, rabbits, and other critters, it deserves a fair chance and I couldn't bear knowing my carelessness affected it.
Mr. Lund, you are a saint. You're easing my anxieties about getting into monarch rearing as I go through one video at a time. I'd seen others mention rinsing leaves, but I wasn't sure the details and was too anxious to think about it.
Thanks. I assure you, though, I'm no saint. Just a guy, trying to help out the Monarchs. No better than others. I just try to make videos that hopefully can help.
You are so awesome. I love that you care about each and every egg in your nursery! I am the same way. One thing I think should be mentioned is that euthanasia is not the only option for unreleasable OE-infected adult Monarchs. I keep a separate, isolated habitat for them and spoil them for the duration of their lives.
Ana, you know I think you're awesome, right? I do. But we disagree here. But it's okay to disagree! I think what you're doing is great, and really, I only maybe 51% disagree, 49% agree. I too have wanted to keep them around and let them experience things. But I don't trust myself to be thorough enough with cleansing. I've read plenty (A lot? A little? Everyone has different standards for those words.) of history of humans thinking that they are in control of situations, ecologically speaking, when they were not. So, even if I *think* I have trouble shot everything, and have cleansed everything, I still can't take that risk. It requires only 1 spore to get where it shouldn't to re-contaminate. Then, it's not one, but two (or more) Monarchs that I raised that I have to euthanize. This is why I don't do what you are doing (and let me stress again, I don't think you're *wrong* for doing it, I just won't), and will not recommend it either. Sometimes, my students don't always understand, people in science can disagree, but that doesn't mean they dislike what they are disagreeing with. They just see it differently. I hope you understand this, as I'm sure you do. Much love goes out to you, and your Monarchs that you take care of! Your heart is huge!!!
I agree with both you and Mr. Lund on this topic. If Mr. Lund, who is a scientist with years of experience in laboratory settings and who has done a ton of research and prep and knows how to prevent cross contamination, still doesn't trust that he can prevent it entirely, then the rest of us almost certainly can't. Yet I cannot bring myself to euthanize the infected or possibly infected monarchs either. Like you, I keep them completely separated - like, rooms apart - and do the best that I can to not share tools, surfaces, etc. Plus I not only wear disposable gloves, which I change in between enclosures, but also wash my hands and save the quarantined monarchs for last whenever I'm tending to the caterpillars (and butterflies when they can't be released yet for whatever reason). And I never, ever release the infected ones. Still, even after all of that, I know that there is a risk, but I choose to accept it.
@@craftyninjacat hi. I’m currently taking care of an infected Monarch. I had two but one died yesterday at 7 days. The second one is enjoying himself. I don’t have any other eggs or monarchs so I’m not fearing cross contamination. I had to cut 40 plants down to the roots Heavy OW infestation in S Florida 2024
I just bleached my eggs I've been having a lot of OE out here in Florida thank you for the video I hope this works I will also be bleaching my leafs that I get from outside
I live in So Fl and it,s may 31, 202O. I’m in the middle of my second run of helping the Monarchs this season and I got pretty serious this time. I had no clue about oe virus. Needless to say there was a very high failure rate with the first 20 or so eggs. Those that hatched and progressed to crysalis were largely black and did not make it. I dont know what killed them but after I saw your video on ‘oe’ i decided to “treat” the leaves with your method. Now I have 37 crysilites, so far, that are hatching on schedule and appear to be healthy. My question is, Is it necessary to treat the eggs? Not sure if the virus is in the egg already or just transferred from the leaves. Thanks for all your help.
@@clarahaydari4849 super late comment but the eggs need to be bleached because there is OE on the egg and the instar eats the egg once it’s born and that is its initial contact with the OE.
Aloha-I just watched this video and I will be washing eggs this afternoon here on this rock located in the middle of the ocean. I am so thankful for your detailed explanation of how to clean eggs and leaves too. I fear OE is rampant here in Hawaii. This video lets me prevent OE at the egg stage rather than just test a butterfly that may not be released. Peanut butter jar, coffee filter, rubber band-you are the MacGyver for monarchs. This morning I watched another butterfly try to emerge and die soon after. It is very sad to be a part of that. I will post again when the counted eggs from today turn into butterflies and test free of OE. Mahalo, Valerie
I wanted to make this video last year, but couldn't, as there just was never a batch of eggs I could do at a time. I didn't want to do it to just two or three, and try and conclude results from such a small testing sample. Things are better this year. When you started telling me of your plight, as have some others this season from Florida and the West Coast, this vid became my number one priority. I definitely had you in mind and others who have similar situations when I made it. I really hope this gets you better results, and will be so hopeful waiting to hear from you that you get some OE free Monarchs this season!
I only was able to wash and harvest 3 eggs yesterday. The winds are strong right now due to a tropical storm nearby and I think the butterflies don't like the windy conditions. Soon I'll be washing many more eggs and I will let you know how they do when they emerge. I did check previous test cards under my microscope and I think I'm looking at OE. It looks slightly different from your videos of OE but maybe just a difference in microscopes? Is there a reason you store your samples on cards rather than slides? Easier to document? Below is a sample from a butterfly that emerged deformed a week ago and died a few days later. Magnification is 10X. Valerie
What you are referring to as "below", I'm not seeing. If it was a link, it's not there. Not sure why it would look different, but I'd be very interested to see an image. If you have a Twitter account, you could tweet it to me @MrLundScience Yeah, I've noticed many more butterflies of all species on warm and non-windy days. As for the note cards, it's all about cost. It's cheaper than slides, and gets the job done. You're right, though. It's also easy to document, and now I get a card to represent every Monarch I've released (or have not released) which makes calculating rates of OE easy. Then, I take that info, and can compare it to my journal to know the overall success rate with OE, and the overall success rate without OE. I want to keep the cost down for myself, sure, but also, I think that getting into this type of conservation work is more appealing to others if I'm showing always how very cheap it can be. The microscope, though, I admit, is the more expensive item, but hand held ones can be bought online these days for I think less than $10. They come with lights built in too!
Okay - your videos make me happy and more confident. I am in Mississippi and I have released over 85 monarchs this year. I have lost some to OE... breaks my heart every time. But! You are doing a great job with educating us further. So! Thanks to the chemist in you and also to the tenderhearted monarch protector/educator in you as well.
In San Diego: I watched all of your videos several times over which are well done and I can see why you are a teacher! I have stumbled into raising Monarchs and after the heartbreak of loosing a couple to both OE and the dreaded tachnid fly, I decided to follow your instructions to a tee. Even testing with microscope for OE. being g science geek myself I thought it was worth a try for a more successful batch. I started with ~ 30 eggs. I took 16 eggs, disinfected EXACTLY as you instructed. Separated them 8 per (disinfected/rinsed) container. They all hatched in 24 hrs, began to eat freash leaves and poop. By day 2 all 16 are dead!! I don't know what the variable was here but I will NEVER do that again. I'm so depressed today. I'm finding that I've spent hours caring delicately for these creatures but my interference has been the greatest threat to them.
Nicole, I'm very sorry to hear that this has happened. My sympathy for your situation, for sure. Let me ask some questions, though... By chance, did the caterpillars turn black after they passed? Next, did you bleach treat the leaves that they were fed, not just bleach treating the eggs as shown in this video? If the bleaching is the cause of death, then that would mean that there was still bleach on the leaves they were eating. The solution to this (no pun intended) would be to either rinse more thoroughly, or not expose the leaves to the bleach for as long, or both. It's possible that if the leaves are exposed to bleach for too long, they will absorb enough of the bleach to cause problems. If you are 100% sure that you didn't over expose your leaves to the bleach, and 100% sure that you rinsed them thoroughly enough, then you can also be sure that the bleach treating didn't kill your caterpillars. If a mistake was made, the best thing to do is admit it to yourself (which is hard in life...I've had to do it a number of times), but then we also are empowering ourselves to have learned from it. I'm not saying you did make a mistake. I don't know if you did or not. I'm just trying to help you pin down what happened, and if all 16 died at the same time, we can know that they had the same cause of death. Again, I'm fully sorry that this happened. I wish I could be there with you to do the process together and see what results that would yield. Thank you for your care and compassion for this animal, for sure.
@@MrLundScience Thank you for the reply. Very kind of you to take the time. I made my dilution per your specific instructions, used a stop watch for bleaching both eggs and leaves (60 seconds) & rinsing (1-2 mins). I was big in the rinsing of everything from Containers to eggs to leaves. Placed all eggs/leaves on clean dry paper towels to dry. Placed 6 per container. They were only a day old & so small that it's hard to say but I think they eventually turned dark as they desicated but not like I've seen with a few other OE affected cats I had in the past. I'm sure it was something I did, I just can pinpoint what. I'm never going to do it again though. That was WAY to large of a loss. I am still very grateful for you and your videos. I love science and I resonate with your scientific approach. And I'm a little envious of your screened in porch and the size if the Milkweed you get there!! Monstrous compared to ours!!! Happy Summer and best of luck with your brood of butterflies 🐛🦋
If they didn't turn black, and very dark within a day or so, you could rule out NPV. Have you seen what cats look like if they are victims to NPV? I appreciate that you appreciate the scientific approach. It's my bread and butter. Also means, you might enjoy some of the other non-Monarch types of vids I'm putting out. Got a lot of exciting things coming soon...
@@MrLundScience any thoughts on miracle grow? I used it one time prior to hatch and every single baby cat that has emerged eventually drops to the ground by a silk (I don't think it's the tachnid silk coming out though), they sort of roll around not crawling well and if I put them back up they may feed for another day or two but dies within a week. I also see they are trying to eat only the very smallest new growth when they are feeding. I don't use ANY other sprays or fertilizer or anything.
@@nicolefrizzell4193 What type of bleach did you use? Did it have perfume or splash proof? Also, the 19:1 ratio is ONLY good for bleach with sodium content of 5-7%. If it is over 7%, use the 32:1 ratio. I used the 19:1 with 8.25% and killed all my cats. I had no idea. I thought bleach was bleach! I'm using Clorox now with 7.25% sodium. I plan on using a 28:1 water to bleach ratio.
Glad to hear it! Since bleach treating eggs and leaves, I have yet to have an outbreak of anything. It's only been two years of it, so too soon to tell, but I don't see any on the horizon.
We couldn't seem to get an egg to hatch. Then I watched your video on bleaching. One day after we did the bleaching as you exactly prescribed.\, we had to tiny little creatures. We are now bleaching ALL! I ahve watched all of your videos, tthey are full of so much information, wew are watching them again. We are in NE Florida, Fernandina Beach, 32034!
Still the best so-to video and instructional tutorial I have seen on line or anywhere demonstrating and teaching how to use the bleach/water solution, such an important lesson; no one shows so clearly each step and with such solid examples and specifics. You have a way of bringing everyone into this conversation, no matter their age, background, or where they are or how long they have been Monarch enthusiasts and/or gardeners. Period. Thank you so much! I have shared your links as often as I can. No matter where everything lands next year, 2020, we all have learned so very much thanks to you. Blessings.
Strong words. I appreciate them. I know that some teachers might be out there who teach because they didn't know what else they wanted to do. Not the majority, though. For me, I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do with my chemistry degree. I love chemistry so much that I didn't want to pin down to a career where I only get to work with one small sliver of the field. While I was figuring it out, I was also living in a "freshman" dorm. It was the no-alcohol dorm, and was always picked last by people, so freshmen got stuck with it. Me? I chose it each year and lived in a dorm each year when attending MSU because I'm a minimalist, and it was skating distance to the skate park near MSU. So, it wouldn't take long for the freshmen taking first year chemistry to figure out, I was a junior or senior who was a chem major. They'd start knocking on my door for help, and I found that I very much enjoyed tutoring them (free of charge). It was pleasurable to see them get it, and I honed the skill of explaining the concepts. That's how I knew, teaching was for me. It takes practice to get good with it, but there are more logical ways to explain things and less logical ways. It's a craft. And takes constant practice and refinement. I don't do it perfectly, but I strive to.
I was reading and found that if you live in an area were milkweed goes year round cut it down at least once a year to a foot to let new growth to reduce OE and other parasites.
I'm on my second year of milkweed in the garden & have plenty of sources, so have decided to brave my first eggs & caterpillars this year! I brought in one egg Saturday then realized there were already caterpillars on the same leaf. The first instar did not make it :( but the second instar molted to third instar this morning. And I brought in a second egg. I think that's good for starters. Your vids are the MOST HELPFUL on the subject that I have encountered. Still need to watch a few more to get the whole process down. THANK YOU!
Glad I could help! And pleased that you found it to be easy. I agree. Seems like the simplest method that also allows you to keep track of every egg while you do it. I've heard of other methods where the eggs aren't counted before and after, and this can lead to an egg parting from the leaf while in solution, and never be found. Easily leads to over exposure and death of the egg. And in some cases, if some are doing multiple, depending upon the process, by the time one is done counting and realizes they're missing one, it can be too late. Thanks for doing what you can!
I have 5 new eggs for this year. Haven't been able to check everywhere. Thanks for this recipe, prepping tomorrow! Can't wait to perfect this process!!!
You're videos are really helping me, I am from England but now live in South Florida, I'm am learning about my new area and all its flora and fauna. I've learned OE is very prevalent here and I am going to use this technique on all future eggs I find and leaves that I feed to them due to the high rate of OE here. I already have acquired A LOT of caterpillars that appeared out of nowhere from a milkweed that I bought and I have been on a research mission to see how I can do the process of helping the monarch to a high standard. I wasn't prepared for so many so soon. Moving forward I will be following all of your advise. As for now, fingers crossed for these fat caterpillars.
Hello, thanks for the videos. I live in the treasure coast of Florida and unfortunately I didn't know about OE until my butterflies were affected. I had 10 eggs and only two survived. The two that survived were kept on my swamp weed from seed. The others ones were on my milkweed from Home Depot. My question is, how do I clean the stalks? I did cut them down a little, but I don't want to affect anymore butterflies. Thank you for ny help you can give.
Thank you. Also if one does not have a soda bottle handy, 20 ounces is 2.5 cups. So for those with measuring cups ( not to be stereo typical but most women do) 2.5 cups of water is 20 fluid ounces.
Hi Rich! This is my first season and your videos have helped me so much! I'm in Houston Tx and experienced OE off the bat with my first butterfly. I researched my tail off and have started bleaching my eggs and milkweed. I have seen my butterflies get SO much healthier. I have followed their progress with a microscope as well. I have developed a method of gathering eggs, and bleaching them off of the leaf so that the bottom can also be cleansed of OE. In my area, even the bottom is too much of a risk not to bleach. 31 healthy Monarchs as of today. I took step by step photos to share with my local group, but I would love to share them with you if you are interested 😊
Getting to the bottom of eggs...now that's dedication! So cool to hear that bleach treating is already having positive effects in your location. When it comes to OE, I suppose that "Everything's bigger in Texas" rule applies. Photos are cool, but I don't use Facebook. You can certainly tweet them to me through Twitter: @MrLundScience But, I understand not everyone uses Twitter. Great job, and good luck during this high point of the season!
Hi Rich, I love your videos and have learned so much. I have been raising Monarchs for 4 seasons now. I live in Hartford, WI and this past season (2017) I raised and released 369. I found my first egg the end of May but never saw a butterfly until July, so now I concentrate on looking for eggs instead of the butterflies themselves. I also found out that some areas of milkweed had no eggs so I would travel a couple miles to another area and would find many. Once I found about 50 in a couple of hours, that was a very good day. I can't wait for the end of May to go looking again hoping to release more in 2018.
Glad you're along for the ride. Yeah, I focus on the eggs too, but, if I *can* find a female in my yard, I will usually have her lay eggs for me. (Have you watched the "Encouraged Egg Laying" vid yet?) This way, I don't have to spend as much time hunting for them in the field, and can get my numbers up there with less time. And I, too, am greatly anticipating the coming of the season!
Thanks for the reply Rich, now that I watched your OE video I have ordered a microscope and will test for it. I actually froze 5 of my deformed wing butterflies and did the tape thing and looked at them under a friends microscope and sadly they all had the OE spores, so this season I will treat the eggs and also test each Monarch to make sure I am not spreading the OE virus. I wonder how many I released might have had it.
Thank you for the informative video! I understand that this is how you clean the leaves, but how do you clean/sanitize the soil after the infected caterpillar poops into the soil?? Does this spread the OE into the soil? I have potted milkweed and am wondering how I clean the soil to prevent OE from spreading into the plant and infecting future cat generations. Thanks!!
And this member had this to say about your videos Mr. Lund. Short but simply to the point and so true!! :-) Donna Scott Thompson I learned everything from his videos
Thank you soooo much for doing all you do!!! This videos are amazing. Thank you. I've watched more than half of this playlist and less than 24 hrs lol. You have motivated me to do my part.... and informed me to do it right. Thank you.
Hey, I greatly appreciate that. Thank you for checking it out, and having the passion/motivation to do what you can. Some say that this makes a large difference, and some say it's a drop in the bucket. All I know is, doing nothing just doesn't seem like an option. Very pleased that these videos could be helpful. That's definitely why they were made!
You're welcome. But, "good", "better", or "best" still depends upon the results we all get. I'll be doing this too from now on. Let's hope it really is the "best"!
That's a pretty good point, Joann! Good catch. Bleach treating of the eggs in this way is more about getting any OE that is on the eggs killed. When eggs are laid from an OE infested mother, they can often have spores right there on the shell, and when the caterpillar munches out, even if it doesn't go back and eat more of the shell (though often they do), it may already be infected right from the get go. So, in the making of this video, I suppose I was more focused on showing how to treat the egg in this way, and overlooked the idea that you bring up. I think it's a low risk, but certainly in places where OE is heavy (which really, those are the primary raisers I made this video for), it's a true risk to be accounted for. So yes, a modification to this procedure that is definitely worth doing would be to have your starting plate, and then your "clean" plate that only comes into contact with Monarch materials after they have been bleach treated. Again, good catch!
@@MrLundScience , I was thinking the same thing. I just removed 10 eggs from the leaves because someone said the OE can be at the base of the egg where it is attached to the leaf. I have counted them and am going to use a loose tea leaf strainer.
MrLundScience Here we are a year later I have a terrible problem with something killing my caterpillars and chrysalids. Looks like this year I need to do the sterilization process. Add to that, creating a set up to move my enclosures from inside my garage to outside. Last year I raised at least 150 monarchs.
Awesome!!! This is great. Going to do this to come! Last year some cats that shown signs that something was wrong and I think the leaves they were eating may have been contaminated, I will be using this bleach solution on all my leaves from now on. Thumps up!
I have milkweed plants that i cover with netting bags from Amazon. We have alot of rabbits that eat the plants.This is why i cover them.I also have plants i leave for the monarch to lay eggs. These are swamp milkweed and common milkweed. They are quite tall so rabbits can't reach the top. If i just feed the catterpillers the covered milkweed they should be safe from OE. I haven't tested for OE yet. I am new to this. Next year i will test for it. But will bleach the egg.
Have raised monarchs for five years mostly successfully. However this year I have zero eggs and the ants are loving the milkweed. Anybody else having issues? I live in Ohio and the weather isn’t very cooperative
The ants are likely after the honeydew released from the aphids. You can use a waterspray nozzle to knock the aphids off which will help reduce your ant levels. I live in Columbus, I saw my first monarch lay eggs on the 12th! Yay! Please any info you have to offer would be greatly appreciated! Released 7 OE negative butterflies last year, hope to release more this year.
Hi Rich: I bleached my eggs for the first time the other night and what has frustrated me is the squares i cut around the eggs became brittle like potato chips. At the end of your video you spoke about cleaning leaves to prevent OE exposure if the parasite is on the plant. I have several potted mw plants and have been rotating them into my pop-ups to help me save time and to preserve the plants as well. How would I cleanse the leaves if I am using a whole potted plant? I am in Churchville, MD. I found 5 caterpillars on June 23, 2017. I released two males and a female. One died from exposure to the T-fly, the other vanished. I now have 24 5th instar, another 40 hatchlings up to 3rd instar and another 40 eggs and it is only July 19th, 2017. Last year we didn't find our first eggs until August 2nd. This past Saturday I actually witnessed a mating pair fly by my head; that was an exciting experience. I have learned so much from your videos and oftentimes share them with others to help spread the word. Thank you for all you do.
Greetings Donna. Cool to see that you are already at such high numbers! And last year, I too didn't see Monarchs until way late in the season, not finding my first egg until July 25th! So, I'm further ahead than last year as well. As for your potted plants, where are they kept? If they are outdoors where nature can still get to them, cleansing them would not only be difficult, but possibly futile, as an infected Monarch has access to it and could land on it and contaminate it. This is also why I don't use potted plants. When it comes to the milkweed I grow, I never place caterpillars on it and hope for the best. That would technically be putting them back into nature, and the point of taking them off the plants I find them on in the first place is to get them out of nature. I use the plants I grow to provide me with seeds (so I can pass them on to interested students and others) and for the occasional leaves in a pinch. Otherwise, I get leaves from other nearby wild milkweed sources. In the field, they have 10% (or less) chance of making it to adulthood. If eggs/caterpillars are taken from the wild, and then placed on milkweed that is still accessible by nature, well, it's still in nature and exposed to all of the dangers. Predators can still get to them, and infections can still occur. This is why I use the system that I do where I have the cats being raised in closed containers that are no longer exposed to the environmental risks. Do you have wild milkweed in nearby areas? If you can find some, I'd recommend collecting leaves (I try to stick to only two from each plant to not "over farm" the plant and harm it) and using those as your food source if that's a possibility.
Hello there. Thank you for your timely reply. I have searched many times on how I could contact you but was unsuccessful until I saw these chat threads. First, I want to thank you for taking the time to educate others about how to rear Monarchs. Honestly, I learned everything from your videos and I have shared them countless times as I have attempted to inform others of the plight of the Monarchs. Last year I ordered 7 flats of common milkweed from Monarchwatch and dozens of employees at the hospital I work purchased them and planted, even the CEO. He was so excited about it University of Maryland Upper Chesapeake has 3 waystations on the hospital grounds. I've thrown 1500 seed bombs I hand rolled throughout Maryland, Delware, PA and New Jersey, however, I will never know if any of them ever germinated. My husband drives and I sling them through the sun roof of our SUV using a tennis ball throwing device for dogs. Yes, one could say I have caught the "bug."
I left a message somewhere else that I thought would be a good topic for you to cover in one of your videos. That is the need for them to eclose in an enclosure that has sides they could grip onto. I am not a fan of critter keepers at all!! Slits on the tops are too wide, lids snap on too tightly and the plastic sides provide no surface for them to grab ahold of. Unfortunately, I learned this the hard way when I had two fall and their wings were destroyed. I hope you don't take offense to my feedback.
Ha ha! That seed bomb idea is awesome! So cool that you were able to get so many involved! You can thank me all you want for the videos, but honestly, I want to *thank you* and people like you who take the time to watch them, and get fired up to help out this species. The videos mean nothing without dedicated people such as yourself!
Oh no. Absolutely no offense. Discussion is discussion, and it's through discussion we all learn more. I might teach some things in my videos, but through the comments section, the viewers teach me a LOT too. I mentioned in another reply to one of your comments, I don't use the critter cages (didn't really know they were called that) until after the cat is too large to fit through the spaces. Also, I don't have them eclose in there any longer, as I hang them to my yarn that I use. But, you're right, this is something that could be addressed, as certainly not many people are rehanging their Monarch chrysalides. I do it to prevent crowding of the chrysalides in my containers, and each year, I have enough numbers to still need to do that. So, because I deal with such large numbers, I don't notice/think of this type of problem. Your advice helps!
Great video and I've learned a lot from your videos! I watched another video where a lady said if your bleach is 7.5 to 8.5 use 32 parts water and 1 part bleach. She dunks it up and down and all around in the bleach water for 3 minutes and does the same in only water for 3 minutes and another time in another bowl of water for 3 minutes then lets them dry. My milkweed after doing this gets limp and wilted easily. Am I doing this wrong? Will the baby caterpillars eat the milkweed if it's droopy? Please help! I appreciate it! Have you made a video on cleaning the leaves only also?
I will try this! I live in Central Florida & I'm having a horrible time with caterpillars that appear healthy then suddenly develop "droopy butt" & die while on milkweed. No pesticides, no changes in anything. Some of the milkweed I've had for a couple of years. Is the OE or something else?
Could be OE, hard to tell for sure if you can’t test them as butterflies since they don’t make it that far. I would try this and see if it’s successful (it is for me). Good luck!
Been bleach washing leaves and eggs. It seems appropriate I guess given that Covid jas us doing hings we maybe did not do before. We have wipes and sanitizer in place for use before doing anything with the monarchs or eggs. Thank you for All the videos. South Florida family enjoying the Monarchs.
This is my first go at raising monarchs. I have loved all your videos. I purchased 3 plants from a nursery and they advertise no pesticides or fertilizer. Much to my surprise I ended up with 17 caterpillars a week after purchase. I have not encountered any issues with them. Currently waiting for the last 4 to emerge. Do I need to worry about this parasite if I’ve had no problems thus far? FYI I am tasing them outside in a pop up tent with a potted plant inside. So I’m not giving them leaves. They just do their thing.
Love your work. Love what you’re doing. BUT did you not just go through all the trouble of sterilizing only to put them back on the same plate????????? You seem very careful about everything so I just wanna point it out since you’re putting in so much effort. I’m raising gulf fritillary/ passion butterflies so I came across your wonderful videos while trying to take preventative measures for NPV. Again, FANTASTIC work. Huge fan of how much effort you’re putting into the cause.
Yeah, you totally got me on that one. Sometimes, thinking about how to shoot the video, and the brain drops one of the things I do when not filming the procedure. Seriously. It's a goof, and this guy has some red face. Someone else pointed this out in one of the comments below. You guys have some good eyes, and meticulous attention to detail!
Most definitely. Always know, I both welcome and appreciate when mistakes like this are pointed out. I *want* to be corrected if an error is made. That's how we improve.
Goodness!! Hahahaha!!! "A penut butter cup of science" lol!!!!! 😂 😂 😂 you are amazing and I can't wait to get this video out to EVERYONE I can possibly, friends, family, neighbors, nature centers, Facebook groups such as "Monarch Madness of Wisconsin" all whom are currently or would listen and/or would like to get involved in raising... 🌱🥚🐛🦋 You are the #BEST Rich!
Yaaaay!!! I was going to ask a question about storing the 5% bleach solution, tightly capped, to use over & over.... and I found the answer in these comments and questions under the subject matter of this video!! So, thank you! Additional storage question: In the fridg? Or, not necessary? I’m in the midwestern section of Wisconsin (OKA the Frozen Tundra) But I still choose to sanitize the eggs I find and the leaves I bring home.
There's no reason to refrigerate the bleach solution. Things we refrigerate, we usually do so to slow down the chemistry of bacteria that is in our food. There's bacteria everywhere, and they are constantly at work to spoil our food. But, if it's colder, it takes them longer to "get the job done". When it comes to bleach, though, bacteria doesn't spoil bleach, but the other way around. Bleach spoils (kills) bacteria. So, when I said there's bacteria everywhere, it's better to say, just about everywhere, and definitely not in your bleach solution.
Question.. if the OE spores are on the leaves and you use your process.. shouldn't you use a clean plate to put the treated leaves on?? .. if you put them on the same plate, you could be reinfecting them.
19:1 works when your sodium in your bleach is 5-7%. But if you have higher-like 7-8.25, the ratio should be 32:1. You should also mention to everyone, not to get bleach with perfumes, splash. I bought regular Colorx and mine is 7.25, so I'm using a 28:1 water/bleach solution.
Don't know it's too late for this but, I'd love to see a video on how to tell the differences between instars? Also a video on how to tell when a cat is going to molt (signs). That would be so cool!
Your wish is my command! Actually, an instar video is in the works. I'm likely going to put it out after some other ones, though. Many are dealing with pests/predators, and NPV right now, and I want to try and get those out before the summer is over in the hopes it can benefit them this year. But yep, instar identification is on the way.
Me too. I’m in S Florida and have been raising monarchs since Nov 2023 I just lost over 30. Have a bunch of black chrysalis hanging on the ceiling of my screened patio. When I realized what was going on I put every plant outside in the garden. There were still about 15 cats. The next day they were all dead. Cut everything to the ground and am taking a break while the plants regrow. I haven’t seen butterflies in my area in several weeks. We had a bunch of them. And the lizards eat the cats. These poor butterflies. I’m wondering if the lizards get sick from eating a sick caterpillar. Mr Lund?
Just had two more. Science says I will have to revisit my procedures. Maybe I am bleach washing too many leaves at one time. I had already bleached all my equipment, including my clips and tweezers. I never thought this would be an issue in Central NY. I had a run of clear results so I know it can happen!!
These videos are so helpful! I have six eggs, one of which I can see the black head inside the shell. Should I skip bleaching him since he seems so close to coming out?
Hello Science Guy, I bought a milkweed plant at a farmstead 6 months ago, and since have become hooked on monarchs. Like obsessed. I'm writing because I live in Southeast Florida, and after a handful of generations of butterflies under my belt, I've now learned about OE, how prevalent it is here, what to do about it, etc. Dove deep into your entire video series yesterday (thanks much!) My question for you is: What can I do to sanitize/bleach my plants when there are caterpillars still on them? My plants are all tropical milkweed, potted (not in ground), and so conceivably I could dunk the whole plant in a large bucket, but not with live caterpillars on it (which are in a variety of Instar stages). Do I let nature take it's course with the existing cats and try to start fresh with the next eggs I find? Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated.
As they are potted, yes, I know of people having made a 5% bleach solution and doing this to potted plants. I'd recommend at least one extra pair of hands helping if you can. Now, I've NEVER DONE THIS and I just want to be clear about that. I'm definitely not giving experienced advice. This is disciplined speculation at best. Definitely, any plant you wish to do this to would need to have the caterpillars removed. Eggs, however, if I were in your shoes, I'd take in and use controlled environments. Back to the plants, I'd be sure to rinse them way more than you think you need to. If you think you've done enough, do what you did one more time. Make sure there's no trace amounts of bleach in crevices. A little can go a long, fatal way for a caterpillar. I wish you luck!
Thank you Rich for the great information and video on how to do this. I love your videos and wonder what type of camera or lens you use for such close up clear videos.
Hey, you're certainly welcome. Thanks for checking them out. As for the camera, I use multiple different ones, none that expensive. For the close shots, though, all I'm truly doing is using a jeweler's eye in tandem with the camera. Usually, because I can get the jeweler's eye closer, I'm using my phone camera for most of the close shots. That's it. That, and holding my hand (and breath) as still as I can.
Hey rich, good news(I'm in flint) got 29 eggs and cats, been busy as hell. Came home yesterday and found one who managed to get out of enclosure and walked into my garden spider Web in another enclosure, GO FIGURE. Well I'm frantically getting him unwebbed, (he was in star 4) he was "bleeding", green stains, wet and dry, under him. Took him to sink and rinsed him off, and prayed for for the best. Gave him his own home to see eat would happen. He was walking but kept falling over, looked dead multiple times. Today, 24 hours later. He is eating! This is unheard of. Who knows how many hours he was dealing with that spider who was wrapping him AS I walked in. And he was bit for sure, whole body was covered in his green blood. But he is A L I V E, insane rich. -Brenden
You may have missed it, but I do mention in this video that yes, once you have cleansed the egg, if you are in a high OE region, you really do want to cleanse food leaves the same way to ensure no infection. You'll certainly want to make a larger batch of the solution, though, and then you can do many leaves at once. Make double triple bonus sure to rinse the leaves afterwards even more than you think you need to. Trace amounts of bleach, when ingested, can build up and be fatal to the caterpillars!
Hey Rich! Your channel is amazing and very educating. I`m from Los Angeles and this is my first year of growing monarchs and unfortunately the first batch of 25 died (not my fault I didnt even know about it) after my apartment building was sprayed by and insecticide company. All of the sudden all of them from small to big (5th stage of larva) started throwing up a green liquid and died within couple of days.... I was trying to save them, brought them in, washed them all with water, cut off stems of the leaves from the outdoor plants and held them in the containers... Still all of them died. I collected a new batch of 16 just recently and planning to raise them indoors but I have no idea what to feed them. Would treating leaves with 5% bleach solution help to wash of the rest of the pesticides off my plants? Please help me with the advice. Thank you
Without knowing what the pesticide is, I can't advise on whether bleach treating the leaves would help. Most likely not, though, as there are pesticides that absorb into the leaves, and thus, would still be likely fatal to the caterpillars. If you recently collected 16, though, I would wonder where you collected them. Weren't they already on milkweed leaves? Couldn't that be a potential food source? My general advice, though, would be to not try and collect any from nature until a known safe food source has been secured.
I collected the eggs from the plants in my backyard (way after the plants were being sprayed) that I assume were affected by the pesticides. They are still in eggs so I have time to figure something out. I do have another patch from the front yard that was not affected by the spraying.
Gotcha...that makes sense. If you have that other patch, that'd be the go to for me. Hopefully you can cut the leaves the eggs are on (assuming they are still attached to the leaves) in a way that leaves little to none of the original leaf left for the cats to eat. I wish them luck and hope they hatch for you! Sounds like a rescue effort.
Thanks, Rich! The leaves I originally cut them from already dried up and I also bleached them. Shall I cut to the ground the milkweed in my backyard?... I`m so bummed... I spent hours planting them and raising from seeds....
I'm not that much of a botanist/gardener. I admit that. I made a series on how to plant milkweed, but that's primarily because people were asking me for a method, and since I was already doing one, felt comfortable showing people what I was doing as far as collecting and germinating seeds, along with planting and growing them. Beyond that, I'm not in waters that I know very well. So, what I say here is my best guess, not something I know from experience. That said, if I were in your shoes, I know I'd be likely to cut them from the lowest leaf up, as that'd be the only way I'd be sure that there was no pesticide remaining on a portion the cats are likely to eat. Milkweed plants can be pretty tenacious. They are likely to grow back without much difficulty (but no guarantees).
Wow! Another great and informative video. I'm going to bleach all of eggs and leaves from here on out. I had bleached some leaves in the past and I lost a few cats after feeding them those leaves, but I think it was completely coincidental. If I do this with both the eggs and cats can I forgo testing for OE? Lastly have you heard of anyone having success with the artificial foot you can order for them?
Thanks. Glad you checked this one out. Can you drop the OE testing if you bleach? That's entirely up to you. First, even when someone doesn't bleach, whether they OE test is up to them or not. So, if someone's bleaching, OE testing will still be something they can decide. I will always test for OE, and here's my reasons: 1) I will want to confirm constantly that bleach treating is working. 2) These days, since I started doing it, the note cards I wind up with become one way that I keep record of how many I release. It used to be all things I'd write down in a journal table I had in my notebooks. Now, I just keep the card, and I write the date of release (which is also the day it emerged), the sex, and whether it was "OE Clean" or "OE Infected". Then, at the end of the season, I can just count out how many cards I have. I can count only those clean and released to get my number for calculating success rate, and I can also calculate the level of OE that appears in my process compared to "clean", which, should be 0%. So, I know I'll always do it. If you test for OE often, it becomes pretty quick and easy. Then, I have a card to represent each Monarch I've released, and it also has its scales on there too. They came in handy for this music video I made: th-cam.com/video/6PVDSA011No/w-d-xo.html
I know it’s a year later but hoping to help newbies. The same thing happened to me. We have to dampen a pc of paper towel and wrap it around the stem of the leaf. That’s what I’m now doing and it seems to be keeping the leaves green. I had to get a magnifying glass to see the caterpillars. I only knew they were born because I saw all the poop.
How long can the bleach solution be stored. As a fish keeper, I know many people don't declorinate the water they add to aquariums, they simply let it sit for 24 hours and let the chlorine off gas. I would assume that a solution you make (although much more concentrated) would only be good for 24 hours to be an effective anti microbial. Yes? No?
As long as you keep the lid firmly on, it is a "closed system" and can last indefinitely. Bleach, as far as store bought bleach, is a solution of sodium hypochlorite. The sodium ions are in there just to balance the charge of the negative hypochlorite ion. The hypochlorite ion will establish chemical equilibrium with water to produce hypochlorous acid and hydroxide. Both the hypochlorite ion and the hydroxide ion do the "killing" for you, and can kill just about any microbial life. However, they hypochlorite can do further chemistry with the water, causing a small amount of it to decompose, and one such product is chlorine gas, which as you say, will evaporate out of the water. As long as the lid is left firmly on, though, the chlorine gas will redissolve in the solution, and react with water to reform the hypochlorite ion. That's the long answer for saying, as long as you keep the lid on, the shelf life is indefinite.
Bottles of store brand bleach all have varying levels of the % of hypochlorite as some bottles are concentrated. So please update the % of hypochlorite was in the bleach you used. Thanks
Very helpful, every caterpillar i've raised this year has died before pupating and i could figure out why, the OE may be the problem, so i'm going to do this next year!
I wish you much luck. Follow the recipe and procedure diligently. You should have success. I've had many from Florida especially, where OE is rampant, tell me that they've raised many OE free Monarchs after trying this out. And I've done this process to all of my eggs this year without issue.
@@MrLundScience thanks! I watched your bacterial and NPV (i believe you called it) video you made and that was actually what was probably going on with mine, i lost 15 this year, they would be fine and then just start spitting out black stuff and when they died more of it would ooze out of them, so next year i will not only clean the eggs but all the leaves too! I've never had this problem before so i'm glad one of my subscribers told me about you!
Great video! For what it’s worth, I’ve learned this tip from other Monarch raising groups: after the bleach bath I rinse the leaves and eggs in a jar of tap water with a splash of distilled white vinegar (nothing measured), followed by a rinse in clean tap water. Supposedly the vinegar water immediately neutralizes the bleach (I only rinse for a second or 2), and the tap water rinse afterwards cleans off any residual vinegar. It saves me a lot of time trying to get rid of the bleach, and it instantly gets rid of that slippery feeling bleach leaves behind. Works like a charm, and the caterpillars happily munch on the leaves afterwards. I’ve raised over 150 Monarchs this year and only lost 2 to suspected OE (by being in a rush and not following the strict cleaning regimen).
Greetings Heezeize! Thank you for doing what you can to help out the Monarchs, and also for being willing to do the added step of bleach treating. As a chemist, though, I don't trust the vinegar idea. I'm not saying it *can't* work, as the chemistry behind the idea is sounds. Bleach's main ingredient that does the bleaching is the weak base, the hypochlorite ion. And adding a weak acid like vinegar (acetic acid) can certainly neutralize the hypochlorite ion. *However*, without proper measurements, one could possibly not neutralize all of the hypochlorite, and accidentally trust that they neutralized enough. Further, any vinegar treatment to the eggs can weaken the egg shell if over exposed. To have a standardized method, a vinegar concentration would need to be known, and correctly adjusted to match the neutralization of the bleach. Since those numbers won't be that easy to come by, I don't know that I'd go that route. That's just me, though. As the bleach is capable of being rinsed away, I myself will be sticking with this method. The vinegar, which needs to be rinsed away anyway, seems like an added unnecessary step. Still, I think it's cool to be thinking about such things and always looking for ways to improve our systems, so thank you for sharing this!
I hope you answer my questions! So I learned of OE shortly after planting tropical milkweed along with damn near every milkweed I could get the seeds from. I live in between zone 7-8, so I don’t know what will happen with the plants. My thoughts are if I cut the tropical back down to the ground every year, when the native milkweed goes dormant, would this allow me the benefit of the tropical variety, and would it be safe for the Monarch? I will do my part to keep it cut down in the native dormant cycle. If you don’t think this will work, my plan B was to grow it in my greenhouse, in pots, let the Monarchs lay and eat. And at the end of the season, collect the seeds, and compost the plant. I know it’s safer, but If I can just cut it down every year, I’d rather do that. Please let me know before it’s too late.
While I am somewhat familiar with garden zones, I don't know them 100%. The question I'd ask is, is tropical milkweed native to your area? You have stated that you wish to receive the "benefit" of the tropical variety. What "benefit" are you referring to? Some would say that there are multiple benefits, so this is why I'm asking you to single out the one you mean, so it's easier to answer the question. In addition, some who work in the field of OE and study it would argue that some of the benefits aren't actually benefits, but can cause harm to the population. Tropical milkweed is perceived as having a benefit as it has what has been referred to as medicinal properties that help Monarchs resist OE. That certainly sounds like a positive thing. But, the problem arises that Monarchs that have this benefit still can be infected with OE, and the OE that still survives to the spore stage can potentially be a stronger strain, as it survived despite the medicinal properties. Thus, when those adult Monarchs spread the spores, they can be spreading a more virulent strain of OE, which can cause populations problems, especially if it is in areas where tropical milkweed is not native. With that said, I would not say that I myself am an authority on this decision. There's a variety of scientists who study milkweed, Monarchs, ecology, and parasites who have weighed in on this, and even they are not in agreement. So, think it would be pretentious of me to offer recommendation here. However, I did present this information for others to consider in this video: th-cam.com/video/5WEewtof3w8/w-d-xo.html For my yard, my general idea is that if it isn't native to Michigan, I wouldn't want to grow it. That way, I know I'm playing it safe. Good luck!
MrLundScience It is not native in my area as it supposedly cant survive the winter here. I’m assuming that if it dies back to the ground, or if it is cut, that it would basically just simulate the native milkweed in my area and cause no issues. Of course this concept hinges on the assumption that new growth would be free of the protozoan. The benefits that I am referring to are basically just the plant being the “preferred” milkweed of the Monarch to lay it’s eggs on(anecdotal evidence is all I’ve seen). I get not wanting to plant things that are non-native, but then of course we wouldn’t have fruit trees and varieties of fruits and vegetables if we all did that, so I can’t go along with that one. I just figured A. curassavica would be no more of a threat than native milkweed species if it was tended to very diligently. It seems to be demonized a lot.
You are correct that if it is cut down each year, the new growth would not have OE spores on it. The situation that could still arise, however, is if a wild Monarch that is infested with OE lays eggs on the plant. When those eggs hatch, they have spores on them, and even in the process of just eating out of the egg, the caterpillar could then be infected with OE. If it is fed the more medicinal tropical milkweed plants, then it's possible that the OE would not develop as much in that specimen, but it's also possible that more virulent OE strains could develop within that caterpillar. If that caterpillar makes it to an adult and is released, it then would be infested with not just any OE, but an OE strain that could cause more damage to a population than normal. With all that said, though, that doesn't mean that you need not have any tropical milkweed. I'm more just trying to explain why some object to it. If someone is bleach treating eggs and leaves, it essentially becomes a non-issue, and I know of a few who have tropical milkweed as their main food source for their cats, bleach treat, and have had no issues. For me personally, I only plant what is native in Michigan, but I don't say that from a point of view of thinking that this is what everyone needs to do. I just personally choose to go that route to avoid even potential mishaps, and it's more about happily staying out of the minor controversy that some people make out of it. Your point about fruit is certainly a good one! And again, that's why I am not "taking a stance" on it, so to speak, I just choose what I choose out of personal reasons. And if you look throughout the rest of the yard, you'll see that with flowers, my wife has already deviated from this idea of "native only". Ha! For my purposes, Common Milkweed is a preferred option mostly because of the leaf size. It's native to Michigan (and so many other places) and provides the largest leaves, which allows me to have much food on hand in a pinch. To keep my plants from being decimated, I still take leaves from nature, never more than two leaves from a plant. But not everyone has that option, of course. I hope this discussion has helped in some way. Good luck in your efforts!
Be aware that you are taking the eggs from a "contaminated" plate, cleaning i, then [utting it back onto the contaminated plate. To be more sure of your process, you might want to consider using a second plate after the water rinse.
Fully agreed. An oversight on my part due to the logistics of filming. To get the close ups to show what was being done, I started putting them on the same plate, and just kept going. The humorous irony is that I had a second plate waiting there too, and just never used it, nor mentioned it. In the normal bleach treatment process I had been doing, a second plate is being used, but it's the plate I normally have the eggs on once I'm waiting for them to black tip.
@@MrLundScience Glad to hear it.It was a small thing, but could be a problem, especially if you had a large number of eggs. Thank you for sharing all your experience. I am a newbie to the monarch world but was a nurse for 100 years and sometimes it makes me a nit oicker. Happy weekend
@@barbarafaulkner4497 Nit picking is welcome. As I tell my students, science is a subject/field/world where yes, we sweat the details, and for good reason. So long as people are open to the idea that mistakes happen, I'm fully open to those mistakes being pointed out so they can be corrected. It's what keeps science healthy!
Is there a way to clean planted milkweed? I usually let my cats eat directly from the plants under the protection of a big tent but I believe the new plants I added recently have OE, since I just got my first group of butterflies with OE today.
Saw your post on Twitter. You lost cats to NPV? I wash all my leaves with 5% bleach solutions and rinse them very well before giving my cats leaves. This has helped tremendously in reduction of losses. When do you think your NPV video will come out. I know a lot of people will need help on this.
I'm not totally sure when NPV will be out. I have learned, don't set dates for when things will be out because 1) I'll probably be wrong and 2) It causes you to want to rush to meet that date, and the video can lose quality because of rushing. I do know that many could be helped by just a discussion of NPV, and so it's on my priority list of trying to get it out before this summer season ends. But, as per usual, I have a lot on my plate. Prior to this outbreak, I have had maybe five in total pass due to NPV (or at least, what very much looked like NPV). And this is over the 6 prior years. It was always just one caterpillar, isolated, and I would sanitize, and not see it again. So, I was not rinsing my leaves with bleach solution. Shortly after making this video on OE bleach treating, that's when the NPV outbreak occurred. Everything looked fine the night before, and then I woke up to find about 25 dead. Sanitation happened immediately, but by the end of that day, about six or seven more expired. It was about a third of what I was raising at the time. After this experience, I am now bleach treating every leaf. I'll be mentioning this in the NPV video.
MrLundScience my cats are in what appears to be in the 5th instar. However some have been acting strange. Some went to the top of the container to j hang, and then instead they molted. And they're still up there. I'm very confused? Don't know what to do
If they molted again, that would be evidence that they were not in 5th instar yet. Thus, they were not going up there to J-hang, but to molt. Most of my caterpillars will go onto the tops of the containers to molt. It's a normal occurrence. Keep in mind too, size doesn't tell us what instar a caterpillar is. Size can be based upon amount of food eaten, but also, just variance within the species. So, you can have a very large 4th instar, and you can have a small 5th instar, and the two could look very similar. A large 4th instar could in fact be larger than a very small 5th instar (though that'd be extreme).
The colors on the fifths are richer than on the fourths. They'll be a deeper yellow and the black stripes will look velvety :) (And if they're nearing the two-inch mark, they're probably fifths)
thank you so much for this information! it's my first year trying this and i've already released more than 25 butterflies since april 1st. it's been incredibl! i am currently raising them to be outside to have the natural elements but contained by a mesh bag around the plant. there was an just oe outbreak on the two potted plants so i euthanized all of the caterpillars & quarantined the rest. for future caterpillars though and on the potted plant, is it a good idea to dunk each leaf into this solution or even spray technique to further prevent the oe? i appreciate your time and yay for butterflies
Hello! I have four monarch chrysalis in my current tank and where I live, there's an actual butterfly club helping the Monarchs! Soon it will be come a actual butterfly rest stop.I have four butterflies and the butterfly club has 10. My question is how do I tell the Queen Butterfly (The leader) about the OE infection?
I suppose the best way to go about it is to ask them questions to see what they already know. Ask them things such as, "Do you know of something called OE parasites?" See what they say. You could also give them links to my videos on it. People tend to not like being told what to do, but instead, if you're just trying to inform them, people are more receptive to that. Have them watch the first two videos on it, and they might start to understand *why* it's important to test for OE, and to not release if they have it. Let them come to the same conclusion on their own, rather than tell them something like, "Hey, this is what you're supposed to do." Does that make sense?
Thank you so much for these informative videos. This is my first year of raising monarchs. I have had 20 that I have released, and just recently started having problems with the monarchs in the chrysalis stage. The chrysalis will turn dark and sometimes a monarch will partially emerge and appears to get "stuck" and eventually dies. Othertimes a monarch emerges and appears to still have part of the chrysalis attached to its abdomen. This has happened several times recently. Do you think this is OE. The cats all look healthy and fat. The only problem is once they try to emerge from chrysalis. Thank you so much.
That is odd, for sure, and that it's happening multiple times does indicated some type of health issue from which they were exposed to the same source of it. It could be OE, but it could be something else entirely. Have you done any OE testing? If the Monarch is deceased, there's no harm in using tape to try to collect OE spores from it (or even the emptied chrysalis inside). Here's a video on how to test for OE: th-cam.com/video/pxXkAL1h2pw/w-d-xo.html And here's another that shows another alternative way: th-cam.com/video/32IqyxjOUfM/w-d-xo.html
Rich I just watched your video and have a question about how OE gets on milkweed spores. Does it get transmitted by only Monarch butterflies or some other vector? Could I just spray a 5% bleach water selection on my milkweed plants instead of hand dip each individual leaf? Just wondering.....
I really need you to answer. I can't find regular bleach it's either the no splash kind or the highly concentrated kind. Can you tell me the exact ratio of the chemicals on the bleach you used? I used the concentrated kind and all my cats died. I used the no splash kind and my butterflies still hatched with OE. They have different percentages. I have one that is 4.5% sodium Hypochlorite (no splash and seems to not kill OE) I have 7.5% sodium hypochlorite (killed all my cats) I also have 8.25 sodium hypochlorite which I don't want to use because it's even stronger. The internet gives me a range for bleach so I don't know what's safe. PLEASE ANSWER!
I live in Hawaii and have a huge milkweed garden for my butterflies. I am losing them to the Black Death from OE. Is there ANY way I can treat the plants to stop this infestation rather than trying to find and cleanse each egg? Is there ANY way to repel these parasites without cutting down my garden and starting again? They are well known on the island and I feel they will just come back if I get rid of them once. HELP (Kokua!)!
I don't know that the plant itself is what causes it to have high levels of OE as much as the range it's found in being warmer in general to other milkweed locations. In other words, yes, Tropical Milkweed has high levels of OE, but more accurately, warm climates where the milkweed stalks don't die off each winter has high levels of OE, and Tropical Milkweed *happens* to grow in those climates. It's less about what plant it is, and more about what climate that plant grows in.
MrLundScience Thanks! Got it. Cut down the stocks! Cut down the stocks! Cut down the stocks!.... Now, regarding milkweed pest such as aphids, do you have any suggestions or any plan on making a video of how to best prevent or get rid of these pests? I have large tropical milkweed plants in various locations at my house and the solution I had found was to trim up my stocks whenever these pests started to prevent them from spreading. Now, my problem is that coming home from a trip I found all my milkweed plants are covered in these pests and don't know whether I can save my milkweed or just cut down my stocks and wait to start afresh
Could you use vinegar instead? Vinegar isn't a chemical and kills the same as bleach if not better. I am just curious. Also what do you do with your milkweed that turns yellow and spotted(goes bad) do you pull it or just let it die off for the season?
Greetings Jennifer! The first part to respond to will be the chemist in me not letting something go, but I hope you don't see it as me being a jerk. Not trying to be! But vinegar is a chemical. But that's also from the standpoint of all materials being chemicals. Water is a chemical. Oxygen is a chemical. I think you see what I'm saying. Still, vinegar is acetic acid. So the question is really, is there a concentration of acetic acid that can have an exposure time to the eggs that allows the eggs to stay healthy, but at the same time, will effectively kill the OE spores? Of that, I do not know. There might be. But, it would be illogical to assume that the same concentration as we do with the bleach, and the same exposure time as we do with the bleach would produce the same effects if it is a different chemical being used. To try and find what concentration and what exposure time is needed (and again, there might not be one that works), would require multiple eggs that we know are already tainted with OE, and exposing them to different concentrations and times to find out what combinations kill the OE, but don't kill the eggs. And needless to say, we'd have to kill some eggs to figure this out. As the work has already been done with finding a bleach solution concentration and exposure time that is effective and can keep the eggs safe, I would recommend sticking with it if we choose to do this, rather than getting into uncharted territory. I hope that makes sense.
Thank you for your quick response. That answer makes sense. What about my second question about the milkweed? Is that discussed in a different video? I have milkweed turning yellow and it gets all spotted with black spots. Do you pull 'sick' looking milkweed? ----side note I am on track to release around 80-90 butterflies this year. :)
Whooops! When I get asked a chemistry question, I like those so much, I forgot that there was a second question! So that you fully understand where this answer comes from, I'm a chemist. A high school chemistry/physics teacher, but through and through, very much a chemist. A gardener - not at all. So, ask me a chemistry question, you're going to get a good answer. Ask me a gardening question and my answer amounts to little, I feel. With my milkweed area of my yard, I consider that a natural area and let nature take its course. I pull the occasional weed out of there, and by weed, I mean non-milkweed plant. Other than that, I completely leave it alone. I've never cut anything back, nor pulled anything out. But, what I'm describing is just what I do (or lack thereof) and not what I recommend others do. I have no recommendations about milkweed beyond 1) growing milkweed is awesome and it's awesome when people do it and 2) I recommend not using chemicals on it as those could harm Monarchs in ways we know of and ways we don't. Sorry that I don't have a more thorough answer for you on that part. And 80-90 Monarchs!? That's so awesome! Excellent work!
I think my caterpillars and butterflies have this. My second deformed one just emerged and it led me here. Thank you for sharing a solution. I will keep my healthy looking butterflies in an enclosure so they don't spread it.
hey rich, all my 30 5th instars made their chrysalis! the other 10 are getting ready to. (5th instar )now. And i wanted to let you know that i have been doing this ever since your original series so thank you. (some info)- i have about 6 more baby cats, in their 1st-2nd instar. i wanted to try the (skeptical) artificial diet with them. I know you had said you ordered it too. The place I got it from was educational science. I wanted to let you and your viewers know, I have had no luck with it. The cats are refusing to eat it. Even my baby 1st instars, which they recommend you start them on the diet at a young age or they may not eat it.. but even my first wont. I dont know if i made it wrong or what, but id like to see how it goes for you. as soon as they eat their egg shell you may need to start them on the diet. though not specified. let me know how it works for you!
Meaning if your 1st instar cats aren't taking to it, that might not be a reliable product. It's something you, I, and others will have to collect some citizen science field testing data on.
While there can be pocket areas that are higher than others, most areas that have harsh winters where the stalks of milkweed die off tend to not have very high amounts of OE. Each winter is like hitting the reset button.
Oh hey, one more question... about the frass. I used to raise worms for composting and would use their castings as fertilizer for plants in the yard. I was thinking that the monarch frass would act similarly, as fertilizer, reasoning that in nature the frass would drop to the ground as soil amendment for the milkweed plants, so I've been tossing the frass back into my milkweed pots, but after watching your sanitizing video, I'm wondering if this is a bad idea. Any thoughts?
Naw. Makes sense to me. And it's never harmed any milkweed plants before, for the last few millions of years they've been dropping it there, right? ;-)
Hi Rich, I have two questions which maybe are things I just missed during the videos. First, if I put the eggs through the bleach process them feed them leaves from outside, isn't it very possible I will introduce the parasite to clean instars? What do I do about that? I read where someone said they put the leaves through the same bleach process but they dried out much quicker. Secondly, where do you put the butterfly that you are testing for OE? Will there be OE on the yarn the chrysalises are hanging from? I guess what I'm basically asking is how do you prevent cross contamination of the newly hatched butterflies? Thanks so much, Dawn
Greetings Dawn! There might be a video that you haven't seen yet, as I have one on what your first question is asking. It shows how I bleach treat leaves: th-cam.com/video/2FE9646Z9xs/w-d-xo.html Will this dry the leaves out at a faster rate? It's tough for me to give a definitive answer to that. From my experience, no, but at the same time, I don't distrust what others are saying. I just haven't experienced this. One reason might be, I use only Common Milkweed leaves, and perhaps other species of milkweed do dry out faster. Another reason is that if leaves are exposed for too long, they may absorb more of the hypochlorite (the active bleach ingredient) than if treated for the time I recommend in that video. Not trying to say any who you've heard this from are doing it wrong, but, let's admit that it's a possibility. On the heels of that, it's also possible that leaves might not be being rinsed as thoroughly. If someone is having issues with the leaves drying out too soon, and they are using Common Milkweed, my first recommendation would be to rinse them even more than they currently are, and see if that helps. If it does not, then the next step would be to double check their measurements, and double check their exposure time of the leaves (how long they are placing them in the solution). If all of that is being followed correctly, and they are using Common Milkweed, I'm really at a loss as to what to recommend. Again, I just don't have this happening with my leaves. (And with all of that, I've been assuming that they are wrapping paper towel around the leaf stem and moistening it, just as I do with my leaves.) If they are using a different species of milkweed, then that is the most likely variable in what is causing the difference in results, and I'm also at a loss as to what to recommend, as I just don't have easy access to those other species of milkweed. Still, I know of some in Florida who have reported to me that they are bleach treating their Tropical Milkweed, and that they are producing butterflies that are OE free, and none of those people have told me that their leaves are drying out. I imagine that if this was happening, they'd be reporting it. I hope, somewhere in there, that answers your first question! For your second one, as my adults emerge, they are in my screened in porch, and I certainly must let them do their thing during the first few hours so they can get their wings out and dried correctly. Once they are willing to fly off the yarn and onto one of the screens, I take that as a signal that they are ready for release. I try to test and release soon after that, but admittedly, yes, it's a possibility that if heavily infected, they could transfer spores to the yarn, or, to even my screens. Further, it's also a possibility that another butterfly could pick up one or more of those spores. However, while it's a possibility, it's not a likelihood. I'm lucky to live in Michigan where OE isn't prevalent. That already makes it a rare chance that they would have it. But since I also bleach treat eggs and leaves, it's pretty tough for OE to get into my system. Since bleach treating, I've had zero OE. That may just be because it's not too much around here in Michigan. But as stated before, some in Florida have told me that since they started bleach treating, they've had zero OE as well. If I lived in Florida or any other place where OE is much heavier, even though I'm bleach treating for OE, I probably would modify my process for eclosing. I'd set up separate containers for the adults to emerge in, preferably one at a time, so that it has room to dry its wings, but would only hypothetically contaminate that one container. (We buy dog biscuits in bulk containers that would be perfect for this, now that I think about it.) If a Monarch was tested from such a container and had OE, certainly that container would be sanitized fully, and this would prevent the spread of spores to others. How was that? I hope this information was clear and what you were looking for!
MrLundScience Hi Rich :) I will watch that video, thank you. I've also read that we need to keep the cages dry so I stopped wrapping the ends in wet paper towel since I think I may have had that NVP. It's hard to know what to do sometimes. One person said we should spritz them with water. I have another sick caterpillar that hasn't eaten for over 24 hours but just sat there while it's two cagemates became chrysalises. Then today, all of a sudden, it started looking for a place to set but not before it passed one wet poop. I'm sure it will for before it chrysalizes I will start cleaning the leaves. I have been wrinsing them but just in water. My first butterfly will hatch soon. I bought a microscope and am set up to go. Not sure if I'm cut out for it. This will be the first caterpillar I've lost. Maybe I'm doing more harm than good. Maybe I should just plant milkweed. Thank you very much, Dawn
Yeah, how moist the container should be or should not be is another gray area, and a place where many will debate. I've read online discussions about it, not really chiming in, and have seen people argue back and forth without ever seeming to bring up that it matters what kind of container they cats are in. If it's small and not well ventilated, yeah, keep moisture to a minimum. If it's well ventilated and larger, moisture is unlikely to cause problems. With my method of wrapping the stems of leaves in moist paper towel, it's moist enough to prolong the freshness of the leaf, but I don't have mold problems. I do the same in my larger, 4th/5th instar container which is well ventilated, and I don't have problems. I don't spray any water on the leaves...caterpillars can get all the moisture they need from the leaves themselves if they are fresh. That's what I know, and don't care to step into the debates you may have seen too. For me, it's all about results, and with my process, I don't seem to have mold problems, so don't plan on changing something that is already working. Hope that helps! If you still enjoy this, I say, don't give up. I tell students sometimes when they tell me that they aren't cut out for it, I remind them that we can improve at anything we wish to, if we're willing to put in the time and effort. I am horrible at skateboarding, I think, but can impress students with the tricks I do. I tell them time and again, I wasn't cut out for it at all...I just didn't give up and had to work hard to get where I am with it.
Hi Rich and thank you for your so informative vids!! My mother and I have raised Monarchs in Michigan for many years without any noticeable infections. However, I am now living in south Florida and am looking into getting the Giant Milkweed plants that down here are rather like large bushes..... my neighbor has hers and beautiful cats come and pupate but the butterflies are deformed and die.... It's awful as her bushes are loaded with them. Is there a known way to treat the total plant? Any suggestions? I understand that the bleach solution would be toxic to the cats and pupae, isn't there any way I can treat these plants that never get a deep freeze like up north?
Greetings! There's a couple of ways to address your question... Here's my best: 1) The short answer: No. Keep in mind that this is coming from a Science teacher who often encourages his students to not think in such terms of never, and impossible. So, perhaps I should edit my "No" to "Not in any way that is reasonable or feasible." I know, too, I'd be very reluctant to want to put any amounts of bleach or any other chemical that is effective at killing the spores out into nature. Humans trying to "solve" ecological problems have been a very large cause of other ecological problems. That the plant is out there in nature, taking the chemistry to the plant, rather than taking the leaves to the chemistry, has the potential to harm other things in ways we both can and can't predict. It's just all around ill advised. 2) Let's pretend for a bit that you could treat an entire plant. In Florida, there's a decent likelihood that within a short amount of time (A couple of days? A week?) the plant will be infested again with spores due to the high amount of infested Monarchs in that area. I don't even think the Starship Enterprise beaming every spore off of a plant is going to keep that plant safe/clean for Monarchs for very long. So, with those two things in mind, what can you do? I would say, do what you can. Whether it's in Michigan, Florida, or elsewhere, with the method that I show in the Raising Monarchs series Parts 1 - 5, notice, the key point is that I'm taking the Monarchs out of nature, and into a controlled environment. Even in nature, they have less than a 10% chance of making it. (Some studies say as little as 3%, from egg to adult.) So, taking in whatever numbers you can, know that you're giving those specific Monarchs much more of a chance. Much more. And it means a lot to them. Another thing to remember is that Monarchs and OE have co-evolved, and have been having this host/parasite relationship for millions of years, and long before us humans came around. The OE doesn't need to be eradicated. It's something that is also a part of nature, and just more abundant where winter doesn't knock it a blow every year. And, there's still Monarchs in Florida. If OE could wipe them out, it already would have, and, it would in turn wipe out the OE. So, while winter doesn't purge the OE in Florida, declines in the Monarch population does cause OE some problems. When the Monarch population is high, OE in that area soon spreads to many places. But, when that happens, it causes the Monarchs to become infected with higher doses, and more fatalities occur. The Monarch population lowers, which lowers the OE, and the cycle repeats. This drama, again, has been happening for millions of years. The reason we wish to treat our current leaves that we take in, is because if we're rearing Monarchs to try and help them make it to adulthood, the last thing we'd want to do is expose them to anything that could kill them. It would defeat our purpose, and that purpose is simply to give an egg a better than "less than 10%" chance of making it to a flying adult. Once it can fly off, it's back in nature's hands, and subject to nature's whims, but that is the way it must be. For these reasons, I wouldn't actually want to treat an entire plant, and just let nature do its thing. The reason I take in eggs is because humans have unnaturally caused decline in their numbers, and thus, I feel we have a green light to lend some artificial help to their numbers...but only in ways that don't disrupt the rest of nature. I hope that helps! And I hope you're enjoying Florida...but admit it...you miss Michigan, don't you?
MrLundScience Hi Rich and thank you for the thorough reply! I haven't actually tested any of my neighbors Monarchs for the OE.... We were surfing the web for info regarding the cause of so many mangled Monarch butterflies off of her plants and came across your fabulous vids. Three days ago I called Butterfly World in Coconut Creek Florida (30 min drive from me) and spoke with someone in their lab regarding our situation. He told me that although OE is present here, the real problem is with the insecticides used in the nurseries. The plants are so saturated with them that the plants are toxic to the eggs, cates, and even the flowers are toxic for the adults to feed from. He said do not purchase ANY butterfly friendly plants/flowers from places like Home Depot, Lowe's, etc.... Purchase from a nursery that doesn't mass produce, and to ask the nursery where they're getting their stock. He said although they can't guarantee the plants coming from Butterfly World, they do purchase from a quality nursery. The only other way would be to grow them myself from seed. Bottom line is, I'm excited to say I'll be going to Butterfly World next week to pick out my Milkweeds!! I'll be sure to let you know how my plants produce, and yes, I do miss Michigan!! (But we here in Florida get to assist Monarchs all year!!) Thank you Rick you rock!!
Now don't get me wrong: Florida is awesome in and of itself. The humidity, honestly, is too much for me, but boy, do I love to visit. The amazing *reptiles* of that glorious state keep me always wanting to come back. Though we have some in Michigan, my first experience with a soft shelled turtle was in a forest in Florida. The anoles everywhere steal my heart every time. And at night, the geckos come out to play. And, Florida is home to the most dangerous snake in North America, the Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake. I think that animal is one of the most beautiful predators on this planet, and I am in awe of it.
Should you use two plates? One for before the eggs are washed, and a second plate for after the eggs are washed? Could the washed leaves pick up OE spores from being placed on the original plate with the unwashed eggs/leaves?
Joann Gochnour pointed out the same thing. Yes, I would use two plates, and it's a good catch. Here's the reply I gave to Joann: That's a pretty good point, Joann! Good catch. Bleach treating of the eggs in this way is more about getting any OE that is on the eggs killed. When eggs are laid from an OE infested mother, they can often have spores right there on the shell, and when the caterpillar munches out, even if it doesn't go back and eat more of the shell (though often they do), it may already be infected right from the get go. So, in the making of this video, I suppose I was more focused on showing how to treat the egg in this way, and overlooked the idea that you bring up. I think it's a low risk, but certainly in places where OE is heavy (which really, those are the primary raisers I made this video for), it's a true risk to be accounted for. So yes, a modification to this procedure that is definitely worth doing would be to have your starting plate, and then your "clean" plate that only comes into contact with Monarch materials after they have been bleach treated. Again, good catch!
I saw some black dots on the egg using a microscope. Can you see the OE on the eggs? If you can can you recheck the eggs to see is the OE is gone. Does the OE get removed or does it die on the caterpillar egg when washing them.
That's interesting... First, let me say, I don't know. But, it'd be cool to do a microscope slide test and see what happens to OE spores when treated with the bleach solution. See if and how they degrade, or any visual changes. I'm curious now too.
I read it was first found in Florida. Now it's all over the world. Has it always been around or did it get out of control from some country like so many invasions from China for example?
I don't know that it's all over the world, as Monarchs (and Queen butterflies, which also are affected by OE) are not all over the world. But, with that said, just as with any species of anything, it's first found somewhere. That OE was first found in Florida, that doesn't mean that it wasn't already where it currently is now, at the time of its discovery. In addition, the physiology of this parasite is very specific to the Monarch and Queen butterflies. This indicates that the parasite and those two species of butterflies have almost certainly co-evolved. That both the Monarch and Queen butterflies are the only two species affected by this parasite also indicates that most likely, the parasite was present prior to the Monarch and Queen being two distinct species, which would be on the time scale of millions of years ago. Does that make sense?
Could you set up a jar with coffee filter, fill it with the 5% bleach solution, put all your cut out eggs in for 1 minute and then rinse? In my mind, it would speed up the process a bit and ensure that you can find the egg, if it becomes dislodged. (Instead of possibly sticking to the side, as yours did. Thoughts?
As long as you can ensure that the eggs are only in the bleach solution for one minute, it shouldn't be a problem. Keep in mind, you could submerge the egg (that is on the leaf snippet) in a smaller container. A tea cup? A small plastic bauble that gumball toys come in? And then there's less volume to "lose" an egg in. You would want to change the bleach in there after a few bleach treatments a bit more often since it's less of a volume and the bleach would react and dissipate sooner, but beyond that, it could help solve the issue you're concerned with.
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Stopping by to verify my bleach to water ratio. We're in Florida and we released 30 healthy OE negative (we tested) butterflies, we only had one casualty. We bleached all eggs, food and containers fairly regularly. Thank you so much for all the information!!
I’m just learning how to support the Monarch Butterflies. I appreciate your careful teachings!!
Hearing you say that each egg deserves respect, made me feel so seen. I carefully snip each little egg I find on my milkweeds. I dropped a snipping once and I spent a long time hunting for it on the ground until I found it. I was told it's no big deal. But that's just not how I see it. I see each egg as a full butterfly needing a chance. It came to my yard. Like the hummingbirds, rabbits, and other critters, it deserves a fair chance and I couldn't bear knowing my carelessness affected it.
Mr. Lund, you are a saint. You're easing my anxieties about getting into monarch rearing as I go through one video at a time. I'd seen others mention rinsing leaves, but I wasn't sure the details and was too anxious to think about it.
Thanks. I assure you, though, I'm no saint. Just a guy, trying to help out the Monarchs. No better than others. I just try to make videos that hopefully can help.
Place the eggs on your tray in a clockwise manner and clean and replace clockwise starting at 12 o'clock. That way you don't miss any eggs.
You are so awesome. I love that you care about each and every egg in your nursery! I am the same way. One thing I think should be mentioned is that euthanasia is not the only option for unreleasable OE-infected adult Monarchs. I keep a separate, isolated habitat for them and spoil them for the duration of their lives.
Ana, you know I think you're awesome, right? I do. But we disagree here. But it's okay to disagree! I think what you're doing is great, and really, I only maybe 51% disagree, 49% agree. I too have wanted to keep them around and let them experience things. But I don't trust myself to be thorough enough with cleansing. I've read plenty (A lot? A little? Everyone has different standards for those words.) of history of humans thinking that they are in control of situations, ecologically speaking, when they were not. So, even if I *think* I have trouble shot everything, and have cleansed everything, I still can't take that risk. It requires only 1 spore to get where it shouldn't to re-contaminate. Then, it's not one, but two (or more) Monarchs that I raised that I have to euthanize. This is why I don't do what you are doing (and let me stress again, I don't think you're *wrong* for doing it, I just won't), and will not recommend it either.
Sometimes, my students don't always understand, people in science can disagree, but that doesn't mean they dislike what they are disagreeing with. They just see it differently. I hope you understand this, as I'm sure you do. Much love goes out to you, and your Monarchs that you take care of! Your heart is huge!!!
@@MrLundScience I love that you are smart enough and humble enough to admit that we cannot control everything, nor are we perfect. Thank you.
I agree with both you and Mr. Lund on this topic. If Mr. Lund, who is a scientist with years of experience in laboratory settings and who has done a ton of research and prep and knows how to prevent cross contamination, still doesn't trust that he can prevent it entirely, then the rest of us almost certainly can't. Yet I cannot bring myself to euthanize the infected or possibly infected monarchs either. Like you, I keep them completely separated - like, rooms apart - and do the best that I can to not share tools, surfaces, etc. Plus I not only wear disposable gloves, which I change in between enclosures, but also wash my hands and save the quarantined monarchs for last whenever I'm tending to the caterpillars (and butterflies when they can't be released yet for whatever reason). And I never, ever release the infected ones.
Still, even after all of that, I know that there is a risk, but I choose to accept it.
@@craftyninjacat hi. I’m currently taking care of an infected Monarch. I had two but one died yesterday at 7 days. The second one is enjoying himself. I don’t have any other eggs or monarchs so I’m not fearing cross contamination. I had to cut 40 plants down to the roots Heavy OW infestation in
S Florida 2024
I just bleached my eggs I've been having a lot of OE out here in Florida thank you for the video I hope this works I will also be bleaching my leafs that I get from outside
Very cool. I hope you'll leave a comment after a bit and let us know the results. Good luck!
So far so good just had my last one hatch today OE free
I live in So Fl and it,s may 31, 202O. I’m in the middle of my second run of helping the Monarchs this season and I got pretty serious this time. I had no clue about oe virus. Needless to say there was a very high failure rate with the first 20 or so eggs. Those that hatched and progressed to crysalis were largely black and did not make it. I dont know what killed them but after I saw your video on ‘oe’ i decided to “treat” the leaves with your method. Now I have 37 crysilites, so far, that are hatching on schedule and appear to be healthy. My question is, Is it necessary to treat the eggs? Not sure if the virus is in the egg already or just transferred from the leaves. Thanks for all your help.
@@clarahaydari4849 super late comment but the eggs need to be bleached because there is OE on the egg and the instar eats the egg once it’s born and that is its initial contact with the OE.
Aloha-I just watched this video and I will be washing eggs this afternoon here on this rock located in the middle of the ocean. I am so thankful for your detailed explanation of how to clean eggs and leaves too. I fear OE is rampant here in Hawaii. This video lets me prevent OE at the egg stage rather than just test a butterfly that may not be released. Peanut butter jar, coffee filter, rubber band-you are the MacGyver for monarchs.
This morning I watched another butterfly try to emerge and die soon after. It is very sad to be a part of that.
I will post again when the counted eggs from today turn into butterflies and test free of OE.
Mahalo,
Valerie
I wanted to make this video last year, but couldn't, as there just was never a batch of eggs I could do at a time. I didn't want to do it to just two or three, and try and conclude results from such a small testing sample. Things are better this year.
When you started telling me of your plight, as have some others this season from Florida and the West Coast, this vid became my number one priority. I definitely had you in mind and others who have similar situations when I made it.
I really hope this gets you better results, and will be so hopeful waiting to hear from you that you get some OE free Monarchs this season!
I only was able to wash and harvest 3 eggs yesterday. The winds are strong right now due to a tropical storm nearby and I think the butterflies don't like the windy conditions. Soon I'll be washing many more eggs and I will let you know how they do when they emerge.
I did check previous test cards under my microscope and I think I'm looking at OE. It looks slightly different from your videos of OE but maybe just a difference in microscopes? Is there a reason you store your samples on cards rather than slides? Easier to document? Below is a sample from a butterfly that emerged deformed a week ago and died a few days later. Magnification is 10X. Valerie
What you are referring to as "below", I'm not seeing. If it was a link, it's not there.
Not sure why it would look different, but I'd be very interested to see an image. If you have a Twitter account, you could tweet it to me @MrLundScience
Yeah, I've noticed many more butterflies of all species on warm and non-windy days.
As for the note cards, it's all about cost. It's cheaper than slides, and gets the job done. You're right, though. It's also easy to document, and now I get a card to represent every Monarch I've released (or have not released) which makes calculating rates of OE easy. Then, I take that info, and can compare it to my journal to know the overall success rate with OE, and the overall success rate without OE. I want to keep the cost down for myself, sure, but also, I think that getting into this type of conservation work is more appealing to others if I'm showing always how very cheap it can be. The microscope, though, I admit, is the more expensive item, but hand held ones can be bought online these days for I think less than $10. They come with lights built in too!
Okay - your videos make me happy and more confident. I am in Mississippi and I have released over 85 monarchs this year. I have lost some to OE... breaks my heart every time. But! You are doing a great job with educating us further. So! Thanks to the chemist in you and also to the tenderhearted monarch protector/educator in you as well.
Thank you much. I appreciate your words, for sure. Very pleased that I can lend confidence to others who choose to undertake this. Ever forward!
In San Diego:
I watched all of your videos several times over which are well done and I can see why you are a teacher! I have stumbled into raising Monarchs and after the heartbreak of loosing a couple to both OE and the dreaded tachnid fly, I decided to follow your instructions to a tee. Even testing with microscope for OE. being g science geek myself I thought it was worth a try for a more successful batch. I started with ~ 30 eggs. I took 16 eggs, disinfected EXACTLY as you instructed. Separated them 8 per (disinfected/rinsed) container. They all hatched in 24 hrs, began to eat freash leaves and poop. By day 2 all 16 are dead!! I don't know what the variable was here but I will NEVER do that again. I'm so depressed today. I'm finding that I've spent hours caring delicately for these creatures but my interference has been the greatest threat to them.
Nicole, I'm very sorry to hear that this has happened. My sympathy for your situation, for sure. Let me ask some questions, though...
By chance, did the caterpillars turn black after they passed?
Next, did you bleach treat the leaves that they were fed, not just bleach treating the eggs as shown in this video?
If the bleaching is the cause of death, then that would mean that there was still bleach on the leaves they were eating. The solution to this (no pun intended) would be to either rinse more thoroughly, or not expose the leaves to the bleach for as long, or both. It's possible that if the leaves are exposed to bleach for too long, they will absorb enough of the bleach to cause problems. If you are 100% sure that you didn't over expose your leaves to the bleach, and 100% sure that you rinsed them thoroughly enough, then you can also be sure that the bleach treating didn't kill your caterpillars. If a mistake was made, the best thing to do is admit it to yourself (which is hard in life...I've had to do it a number of times), but then we also are empowering ourselves to have learned from it. I'm not saying you did make a mistake. I don't know if you did or not. I'm just trying to help you pin down what happened, and if all 16 died at the same time, we can know that they had the same cause of death.
Again, I'm fully sorry that this happened. I wish I could be there with you to do the process together and see what results that would yield. Thank you for your care and compassion for this animal, for sure.
@@MrLundScience Thank you for the reply. Very kind of you to take the time. I made my dilution per your specific instructions, used a stop watch for bleaching both eggs and leaves (60 seconds) & rinsing (1-2 mins). I was big in the rinsing of everything from Containers to eggs to leaves. Placed all eggs/leaves on clean dry paper towels to dry. Placed 6 per container. They were only a day old & so small that it's hard to say but I think they eventually turned dark as they desicated but not like I've seen with a few other OE affected cats I had in the past. I'm sure it was something I did, I just can pinpoint what. I'm never going to do it again though. That was WAY to large of a loss. I am still very grateful for you and your videos. I love science and I resonate with your scientific approach. And I'm a little envious of your screened in porch and the size if the Milkweed you get there!! Monstrous compared to ours!!! Happy Summer and best of luck with your brood of butterflies 🐛🦋
If they didn't turn black, and very dark within a day or so, you could rule out NPV. Have you seen what cats look like if they are victims to NPV?
I appreciate that you appreciate the scientific approach. It's my bread and butter. Also means, you might enjoy some of the other non-Monarch types of vids I'm putting out. Got a lot of exciting things coming soon...
@@MrLundScience any thoughts on miracle grow? I used it one time prior to hatch and every single baby cat that has emerged eventually drops to the ground by a silk (I don't think it's the tachnid silk coming out though), they sort of roll around not crawling well and if I put them back up they may feed for another day or two but dies within a week. I also see they are trying to eat only the very smallest new growth when they are feeding. I don't use ANY other sprays or fertilizer or anything.
@@nicolefrizzell4193 What type of bleach did you use? Did it have perfume or splash proof? Also, the 19:1 ratio is ONLY good for bleach with sodium content of 5-7%. If it is over 7%, use the 32:1 ratio. I used the 19:1 with 8.25% and killed all my cats. I had no idea. I thought bleach was bleach! I'm using Clorox now with 7.25% sodium. I plan on using a 28:1 water to bleach ratio.
This has been a game changer. This video, Along with only collecting eggs, has meant all my butterflies are coming out healthy.
Glad to hear it! Since bleach treating eggs and leaves, I have yet to have an outbreak of anything. It's only been two years of it, so too soon to tell, but I don't see any on the horizon.
I had no idea this even existed. I'm starting my milkweed collection next year and I guess I'll be cleaning baby eggs...
We couldn't seem to get an egg to hatch. Then I watched your video on bleaching. One day after we did the bleaching as you exactly prescribed.\, we had to tiny little creatures. We are now bleaching ALL! I ahve watched all of your videos, tthey are full of so much information, wew are watching them again. We are in NE Florida, Fernandina Beach, 32034!
I'm glad that these were able to help you out. Good luck with your new hatchlings!
Still the best so-to video and instructional tutorial I have seen on line or anywhere demonstrating and teaching how to use the bleach/water solution, such an important lesson; no one shows so clearly each step and with such solid examples and specifics. You have a way of bringing everyone into this conversation, no matter their age, background, or where they are or how long they have been Monarch enthusiasts and/or gardeners. Period. Thank you so much! I have shared your links as often as I can. No matter where everything lands next year, 2020, we all have learned so very much thanks to you. Blessings.
Strong words. I appreciate them. I know that some teachers might be out there who teach because they didn't know what else they wanted to do. Not the majority, though. For me, I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do with my chemistry degree. I love chemistry so much that I didn't want to pin down to a career where I only get to work with one small sliver of the field. While I was figuring it out, I was also living in a "freshman" dorm. It was the no-alcohol dorm, and was always picked last by people, so freshmen got stuck with it. Me? I chose it each year and lived in a dorm each year when attending MSU because I'm a minimalist, and it was skating distance to the skate park near MSU. So, it wouldn't take long for the freshmen taking first year chemistry to figure out, I was a junior or senior who was a chem major. They'd start knocking on my door for help, and I found that I very much enjoyed tutoring them (free of charge). It was pleasurable to see them get it, and I honed the skill of explaining the concepts. That's how I knew, teaching was for me. It takes practice to get good with it, but there are more logical ways to explain things and less logical ways. It's a craft. And takes constant practice and refinement. I don't do it perfectly, but I strive to.
I was reading and found that if you live in an area were milkweed goes year round cut it down at least once a year to a foot to let new growth to reduce OE and other parasites.
I have heard the same, and the logic is sound.
Hah. It gets mowed down to nothing by the caterpillars every two months
I'm on my second year of milkweed in the garden & have plenty of sources, so have decided to brave my first eggs & caterpillars this year! I brought in one egg Saturday then realized there were already caterpillars on the same leaf. The first instar did not make it :( but the second instar molted to third instar this morning. And I brought in a second egg. I think that's good for starters.
Your vids are the MOST HELPFUL on the subject that I have encountered. Still need to watch a few more to get the whole process down. THANK YOU!
Very awesome! Welcome to your second year!
I'm in South Florida and probably all of the Monarchs here have OE. Thanks to your amazing, super easy video on bleaching, I am trying again!!! 👍👍👍🐛
Glad I could help! And pleased that you found it to be easy. I agree. Seems like the simplest method that also allows you to keep track of every egg while you do it. I've heard of other methods where the eggs aren't counted before and after, and this can lead to an egg parting from the leaf while in solution, and never be found. Easily leads to over exposure and death of the egg. And in some cases, if some are doing multiple, depending upon the process, by the time one is done counting and realizes they're missing one, it can be too late. Thanks for doing what you can!
I have 5 new eggs for this year. Haven't been able to check everywhere. Thanks for this recipe, prepping tomorrow! Can't wait to perfect this process!!!
Finally I'm early for a monarch video!
Gooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaalllll!
You're videos are really helping me, I am from England but now live in South Florida, I'm am learning about my new area and all its flora and fauna. I've learned OE is very prevalent here and I am going to use this technique on all future eggs I find and leaves that I feed to them due to the high rate of OE here. I already have acquired A LOT of caterpillars that appeared out of nowhere from a milkweed that I bought and I have been on a research mission to see how I can do the process of helping the monarch to a high standard. I wasn't prepared for so many so soon. Moving forward I will be following all of your advise. As for now, fingers crossed for these fat caterpillars.
Thank you for giving such thorough direction!
I'll continue to do what I can when I can. Thanks for using the info!
Hello, thanks for the videos. I live in the treasure coast of Florida and unfortunately I didn't know about OE until my butterflies were affected. I had 10 eggs and only two survived. The two that survived were kept on my swamp weed from seed. The others ones were on my milkweed from Home Depot. My question is, how do I clean the stalks? I did cut them down a little, but I don't want to affect anymore butterflies. Thank you for ny help you can give.
Thank you. Also if one does not have a soda bottle handy, 20 ounces is 2.5 cups. So for those with measuring cups ( not to be stereo typical but most women do) 2.5 cups of water is 20 fluid ounces.
Hi Rich!
This is my first season and your videos have helped me so much!
I'm in Houston Tx and experienced OE off the bat with my first butterfly. I researched my tail off and have started bleaching my eggs and milkweed. I have seen my butterflies get SO much healthier. I have followed their progress with a microscope as well. I have developed a method of gathering eggs, and bleaching them off of the leaf so that the bottom can also be cleansed of OE. In my area, even the bottom is too much of a risk not to bleach. 31 healthy Monarchs as of today.
I took step by step photos to share with my local group, but I would love to share them with you if you are interested 😊
Getting to the bottom of eggs...now that's dedication! So cool to hear that bleach treating is already having positive effects in your location. When it comes to OE, I suppose that "Everything's bigger in Texas" rule applies. Photos are cool, but I don't use Facebook. You can certainly tweet them to me through Twitter: @MrLundScience
But, I understand not everyone uses Twitter. Great job, and good luck during this high point of the season!
Are you on the Houston Monarch page? I'd love to see photos of this. I'm in Conroe.
Hi Rich, I love your videos and have learned so much. I have been raising Monarchs for 4 seasons now. I live in Hartford, WI and this past season (2017) I raised and released 369.
I found my first egg the end of May but never saw a butterfly until July, so now I concentrate on looking for eggs instead of the butterflies themselves. I also found out that some areas of milkweed had no eggs so I would travel a couple miles to another area and would find many. Once I found about 50 in a couple of hours, that was a very good day. I can't wait for the end of May to go looking again hoping to release more in 2018.
Glad you're along for the ride. Yeah, I focus on the eggs too, but, if I *can* find a female in my yard, I will usually have her lay eggs for me. (Have you watched the "Encouraged Egg Laying" vid yet?) This way, I don't have to spend as much time hunting for them in the field, and can get my numbers up there with less time.
And I, too, am greatly anticipating the coming of the season!
Thanks for the reply Rich, now that I watched your OE video I have ordered a microscope and will test for it. I actually froze 5 of my deformed wing butterflies and did the tape thing and looked at them under a friends microscope and sadly they all had the OE spores, so this season I will treat the eggs and also test each Monarch to make sure I am not spreading the OE virus. I wonder how many I released might have had it.
Concerning the ones you've already released, hey, worry not. I spent 4 years raising Monarchs before I knew OE existed. But, we learn as we go.
Thank you for the informative video! I understand that this is how you clean the leaves, but how do you clean/sanitize the soil after the infected caterpillar poops into the soil?? Does this spread the OE into the soil? I have potted milkweed and am wondering how I clean the soil to prevent OE from spreading into the plant and infecting future cat generations. Thanks!!
That spider at 6:50 is HUGE!!😅💀💀
And this member had this to say about your videos Mr. Lund. Short but simply to the point and so true!! :-)
Donna Scott Thompson I learned everything from his videos
Me too!!
Thank you soooo much for doing all you do!!! This videos are amazing. Thank you. I've watched more than half of this playlist and less than 24 hrs lol. You have motivated me to do my part.... and informed me to do it right. Thank you.
Hey, I greatly appreciate that. Thank you for checking it out, and having the passion/motivation to do what you can. Some say that this makes a large difference, and some say it's a drop in the bucket. All I know is, doing nothing just doesn't seem like an option. Very pleased that these videos could be helpful. That's definitely why they were made!
This is the best method I have seen. Thankyou.
You're welcome. But, "good", "better", or "best" still depends upon the results we all get. I'll be doing this too from now on. Let's hope it really is the "best"!
Wouldnt placing the clean eggs back on the original plate possible reexpose them to oe if they had been infected?
That's a pretty good point, Joann! Good catch. Bleach treating of the eggs in this way is more about getting any OE that is on the eggs killed. When eggs are laid from an OE infested mother, they can often have spores right there on the shell, and when the caterpillar munches out, even if it doesn't go back and eat more of the shell (though often they do), it may already be infected right from the get go. So, in the making of this video, I suppose I was more focused on showing how to treat the egg in this way, and overlooked the idea that you bring up. I think it's a low risk, but certainly in places where OE is heavy (which really, those are the primary raisers I made this video for), it's a true risk to be accounted for. So yes, a modification to this procedure that is definitely worth doing would be to have your starting plate, and then your "clean" plate that only comes into contact with Monarch materials after they have been bleach treated. Again, good catch!
@@MrLundScience , I was thinking the same thing. I just removed 10 eggs from the leaves because someone said the OE can be at the base of the egg where it is attached to the leaf. I have counted them and am going to use a loose tea leaf strainer.
MrLundScience Here we are a year later I have a terrible problem with something killing my caterpillars and chrysalids. Looks like this year I need to do the sterilization process. Add to that, creating a set up to move my enclosures from inside my garage to outside. Last year I raised at least 150 monarchs.
@@MrLundScience same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MrLundScience wahoo
Awesome!!! This is great. Going to do this to come! Last year some cats that shown signs that something was wrong and I think the leaves they were eating may have been contaminated, I will be using this bleach solution on all my leaves from now on. Thumps up!
Glad to hear it. Good luck with your results!
And never bleach freshly laid eggs. Wait 24 hours for the eggs to harden.
How do you suggest we do this for an outdoor
garden of planted milkweed?
I have milkweed plants that i cover with netting bags from Amazon. We have alot of rabbits that eat the plants.This is why i cover them.I also have plants i leave for the monarch to lay eggs. These are swamp milkweed and common milkweed. They are quite tall so rabbits can't reach the top. If i just feed the catterpillers the covered milkweed they should be safe from OE. I haven't tested for OE yet. I am new to this. Next year i will test for it. But will bleach the egg.
Rich. Can I spray a milkweed plant with the bleach solution and rise so I make sure no O.E is on my plant before caging it?
Have raised monarchs for five years mostly successfully. However this year I have zero eggs and the ants are loving the milkweed. Anybody else having issues? I live in Ohio and the weather isn’t very cooperative
The ants are likely after the honeydew released from the aphids. You can use a waterspray nozzle to knock the aphids off which will help reduce your ant levels. I live in Columbus, I saw my first monarch lay eggs on the 12th! Yay!
Please any info you have to offer would be greatly appreciated! Released 7 OE negative butterflies last year, hope to release more this year.
Hi Rich: I bleached my eggs for the first time the other night and what has frustrated me is the squares i cut around the eggs became brittle like potato chips. At the end of your video you spoke about cleaning leaves to prevent OE exposure if the parasite is on the plant. I have several potted mw plants and have been rotating them into my pop-ups to help me save time and to preserve the plants as well. How would I cleanse the leaves if I am using a whole potted plant?
I am in Churchville, MD. I found 5 caterpillars on June 23, 2017. I released two males and a female. One died from exposure to the T-fly, the other vanished. I now have 24 5th instar, another 40 hatchlings up to 3rd instar and another 40 eggs and it is only July 19th, 2017. Last year we didn't find our first eggs until August 2nd.
This past Saturday I actually witnessed a mating pair fly by my head; that was an exciting experience.
I have learned so much from your videos and oftentimes share them with others to help spread the word. Thank you for all you do.
Greetings Donna. Cool to see that you are already at such high numbers! And last year, I too didn't see Monarchs until way late in the season, not finding my first egg until July 25th! So, I'm further ahead than last year as well.
As for your potted plants, where are they kept? If they are outdoors where nature can still get to them, cleansing them would not only be difficult, but possibly futile, as an infected Monarch has access to it and could land on it and contaminate it. This is also why I don't use potted plants. When it comes to the milkweed I grow, I never place caterpillars on it and hope for the best. That would technically be putting them back into nature, and the point of taking them off the plants I find them on in the first place is to get them out of nature. I use the plants I grow to provide me with seeds (so I can pass them on to interested students and others) and for the occasional leaves in a pinch. Otherwise, I get leaves from other nearby wild milkweed sources.
In the field, they have 10% (or less) chance of making it to adulthood. If eggs/caterpillars are taken from the wild, and then placed on milkweed that is still accessible by nature, well, it's still in nature and exposed to all of the dangers. Predators can still get to them, and infections can still occur. This is why I use the system that I do where I have the cats being raised in closed containers that are no longer exposed to the environmental risks.
Do you have wild milkweed in nearby areas? If you can find some, I'd recommend collecting leaves (I try to stick to only two from each plant to not "over farm" the plant and harm it) and using those as your food source if that's a possibility.
Hello there. Thank you for your timely reply. I have searched many times on how I could contact you but was unsuccessful until I saw these chat threads. First, I want to thank you for taking the time to educate others about how to rear Monarchs. Honestly, I learned everything from your videos and I have shared them countless times as I have attempted to inform others of the plight of the Monarchs. Last year I ordered 7 flats of common milkweed from Monarchwatch and dozens of employees at the hospital I work purchased them and planted, even the CEO. He was so excited about it University of Maryland Upper Chesapeake has 3 waystations on the hospital grounds. I've thrown 1500 seed bombs I hand rolled throughout Maryland, Delware, PA and New Jersey, however, I will never know if any of them ever germinated. My husband drives and I sling them through the sun roof of our SUV using a tennis ball throwing device for dogs. Yes, one could say I have caught the "bug."
I left a message somewhere else that I thought would be a good topic for you to cover in one of your videos. That is the need for them to eclose in an enclosure that has sides they could grip onto. I am not a fan of critter keepers at all!! Slits on the tops are too wide, lids snap on too tightly and the plastic sides provide no surface for them to grab ahold of. Unfortunately, I learned this the hard way when I had two fall and their wings were destroyed.
I hope you don't take offense to my feedback.
Ha ha! That seed bomb idea is awesome! So cool that you were able to get so many involved!
You can thank me all you want for the videos, but honestly, I want to *thank you* and people like you who take the time to watch them, and get fired up to help out this species. The videos mean nothing without dedicated people such as yourself!
Oh no. Absolutely no offense. Discussion is discussion, and it's through discussion we all learn more. I might teach some things in my videos, but through the comments section, the viewers teach me a LOT too.
I mentioned in another reply to one of your comments, I don't use the critter cages (didn't really know they were called that) until after the cat is too large to fit through the spaces. Also, I don't have them eclose in there any longer, as I hang them to my yarn that I use. But, you're right, this is something that could be addressed, as certainly not many people are rehanging their Monarch chrysalides. I do it to prevent crowding of the chrysalides in my containers, and each year, I have enough numbers to still need to do that. So, because I deal with such large numbers, I don't notice/think of this type of problem. Your advice helps!
Thank you so much ☺️ we have a heavy amount of OE here in Houston
Great video and I've learned a lot from your videos! I watched another video where a lady said if your bleach is 7.5 to 8.5 use 32 parts water and 1 part bleach. She dunks it up and down and all around in the bleach water for 3 minutes and does the same in only water for 3 minutes and another time in another bowl of water for 3 minutes then lets them dry. My milkweed after doing this gets limp and wilted easily. Am I doing this wrong? Will the baby caterpillars eat the milkweed if it's droopy? Please help! I appreciate it! Have you made a video on cleaning the leaves only also?
I would put the bleached egg on a completely different plate to keep track. I know I would mess it up.
I will try this! I live in Central Florida & I'm having a horrible time with caterpillars that appear healthy then suddenly develop "droopy butt" & die while on milkweed. No pesticides, no changes in anything. Some of the milkweed I've had for a couple of years. Is the OE or something else?
Could be OE, hard to tell for sure if you can’t test them as butterflies since they don’t make it that far. I would try this and see if it’s successful (it is for me). Good luck!
Been bleach washing leaves and eggs. It seems appropriate I guess given that Covid jas us doing hings we maybe did not do before. We have wipes and sanitizer in place for use before doing anything with the monarchs or eggs. Thank you for All the videos. South Florida family enjoying the Monarchs.
This is my first go at raising monarchs. I have loved all your videos. I purchased 3 plants from a nursery and they advertise no pesticides or fertilizer. Much to my surprise I ended up with 17 caterpillars a week after purchase. I have not encountered any issues with them. Currently waiting for the last 4 to emerge. Do I need to worry about this parasite if I’ve had no problems thus far? FYI I am tasing them outside in a pop up tent with a potted plant inside. So I’m not giving them leaves. They just do their thing.
Thank you for this video...I had a problem with this and this is very helpful.
Love your work. Love what you’re doing. BUT did you not just go through all the trouble of sterilizing only to put them back on the same plate????????? You seem very careful about everything so I just wanna point it out since you’re putting in so much effort. I’m raising gulf fritillary/ passion butterflies so I came across your wonderful videos while trying to take preventative measures for NPV. Again, FANTASTIC work. Huge fan of how much effort you’re putting into the cause.
Yeah, you totally got me on that one. Sometimes, thinking about how to shoot the video, and the brain drops one of the things I do when not filming the procedure. Seriously. It's a goof, and this guy has some red face. Someone else pointed this out in one of the comments below. You guys have some good eyes, and meticulous attention to detail!
MrLundScience just looking out for the butterflies. Keep up the good work!
Most definitely. Always know, I both welcome and appreciate when mistakes like this are pointed out. I *want* to be corrected if an error is made. That's how we improve.
Goodness!! Hahahaha!!! "A penut butter cup of science" lol!!!!! 😂 😂 😂 you are amazing and I can't wait to get this video out to EVERYONE I can possibly, friends, family, neighbors, nature centers, Facebook groups such as "Monarch Madness of Wisconsin" all whom are currently or would listen and/or would like to get involved in raising...
🌱🥚🐛🦋
You are the #BEST Rich!
"Monarch Madness of Wisconsin" is a killer name! They should make some awesome, heavy metal looking T-Shirts!
Yaaaay!!! I was going to ask a question about storing the 5% bleach solution, tightly capped, to use over & over.... and I found the answer in these comments and questions under the subject matter of this video!! So, thank you! Additional storage question: In the fridg? Or, not necessary? I’m in the midwestern section of Wisconsin (OKA the Frozen Tundra) But I still choose to sanitize the eggs I find and the leaves I bring home.
There's no reason to refrigerate the bleach solution. Things we refrigerate, we usually do so to slow down the chemistry of bacteria that is in our food. There's bacteria everywhere, and they are constantly at work to spoil our food. But, if it's colder, it takes them longer to "get the job done". When it comes to bleach, though, bacteria doesn't spoil bleach, but the other way around. Bleach spoils (kills) bacteria. So, when I said there's bacteria everywhere, it's better to say, just about everywhere, and definitely not in your bleach solution.
MrLundScience Excellent! Thank you so much!! You are one busy Monarch advocate!
Thanks for this video! Now I can tell if my monarchs have OE parasites!
Welcome!
Question.. if the OE spores are on the leaves and you use your process.. shouldn't you use a clean plate to put the treated leaves on?? .. if you put them on the same plate, you could be reinfecting them.
19:1 works when your sodium in your bleach is 5-7%. But if you have higher-like 7-8.25, the ratio should be 32:1. You should also mention to everyone, not to get bleach with perfumes, splash. I bought regular Colorx and mine is 7.25, so I'm using a 28:1 water/bleach solution.
Don't know it's too late for this but, I'd love to see a video on how to tell the differences between instars? Also a video on how to tell when a cat is going to molt (signs). That would be so cool!
Your wish is my command! Actually, an instar video is in the works.
I'm likely going to put it out after some other ones, though. Many are dealing with pests/predators, and NPV right now, and I want to try and get those out before the summer is over in the hopes it can benefit them this year. But yep, instar identification is on the way.
Glad your working on Npv!
How long does it take for an egg to hatch? Its been over a week for the eggs im watching over.
I just lost 8 catipillars and had 1 deformed butterfly due to (this) I believe. I’m devastated and I’m hoping to do better this next generation
Me too. I’m in S Florida and have been raising monarchs since Nov 2023 I just lost over 30. Have a bunch of black chrysalis hanging on the ceiling of my screened patio. When I realized what was going on I put every plant outside in the garden. There were still about 15 cats. The next day they were all dead.
Cut everything to the ground and am taking a break while the plants regrow. I haven’t seen butterflies in my area in several weeks. We had a bunch of them. And the lizards eat the cats. These poor butterflies.
I’m wondering if the lizards get sick from eating a sick caterpillar. Mr Lund?
Just had two more. Science says I will have to revisit my procedures. Maybe I am bleach washing too many leaves at one time. I had already bleached all my equipment, including my clips and tweezers. I never thought this would be an issue in Central NY. I had a run of clear results so I know it can happen!!
Would you advise bleaching an egg that's already black tipping?
I wouldn’t.
Thanks so much for this! Has helped me so much in taking care of these little cuties
You're absolutely welcome! Hope it works out well for you!
These videos are so helpful! I have six eggs, one of which I can see the black head inside the shell. Should I skip bleaching him since he seems so close to coming out?
Hello Science Guy, I bought a milkweed plant at a farmstead 6 months ago, and since have become hooked on monarchs. Like obsessed. I'm writing because I live in Southeast Florida, and after a handful of generations of butterflies under my belt, I've now learned about OE, how prevalent it is here, what to do about it, etc. Dove deep into your entire video series yesterday (thanks much!) My question for you is: What can I do to sanitize/bleach my plants when there are caterpillars still on them? My plants are all tropical milkweed, potted (not in ground), and so conceivably I could dunk the whole plant in a large bucket, but not with live caterpillars on it (which are in a variety of Instar stages). Do I let nature take it's course with the existing cats and try to start fresh with the next eggs I find? Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated.
As they are potted, yes, I know of people having made a 5% bleach solution and doing this to potted plants. I'd recommend at least one extra pair of hands helping if you can.
Now, I've NEVER DONE THIS and I just want to be clear about that. I'm definitely not giving experienced advice. This is disciplined speculation at best.
Definitely, any plant you wish to do this to would need to have the caterpillars removed. Eggs, however, if I were in your shoes, I'd take in and use controlled environments.
Back to the plants, I'd be sure to rinse them way more than you think you need to. If you think you've done enough, do what you did one more time. Make sure there's no trace amounts of bleach in crevices. A little can go a long, fatal way for a caterpillar.
I wish you luck!
sir please reply me ,can we use the same method for treating parasited eggs of swallowtails and other species,please help me sir,thanks
Thank you Rich for the great information and video on how to do this. I love your videos and wonder what type of camera or lens you use for such close up clear videos.
Hey, you're certainly welcome. Thanks for checking them out.
As for the camera, I use multiple different ones, none that expensive. For the close shots, though, all I'm truly doing is using a jeweler's eye in tandem with the camera. Usually, because I can get the jeweler's eye closer, I'm using my phone camera for most of the close shots. That's it. That, and holding my hand (and breath) as still as I can.
You are awesome! Such clear instructions !! Thank you
Much appreciated!
Hey rich, good news(I'm in flint) got 29 eggs and cats, been busy as hell. Came home yesterday and found one who managed to get out of enclosure and walked into my garden spider Web in another enclosure, GO FIGURE. Well I'm frantically getting him unwebbed, (he was in star 4) he was "bleeding", green stains, wet and dry, under him. Took him to sink and rinsed him off, and prayed for for the best. Gave him his own home to see eat would happen. He was walking but kept falling over, looked dead multiple times. Today, 24 hours later. He is eating! This is unheard of. Who knows how many hours he was dealing with that spider who was wrapping him AS I walked in. And he was bit for sure, whole body was covered in his green blood. But he is A L I V E, insane rich. -Brenden
That is a cool story. If he survived the bite, and now is eating, he's likely to make it. Bravo!
is it possible to wash the leaves that I will be feeding to my caterpillars . pls respond asp 2 of my butterflies have already come down with OE.
Yes, you make a large enough batch for the stems and leaves to all fit in and then follow his instructions in the vid.
I have been rinsing the leaves in tap water before but this is a better.
Great video, Thanks.
Spores of OE are also on milkweed leaves so I bleach the milkweed before feeding the cats.
Your thoughts?
You may have missed it, but I do mention in this video that yes, once you have cleansed the egg, if you are in a high OE region, you really do want to cleanse food leaves the same way to ensure no infection. You'll certainly want to make a larger batch of the solution, though, and then you can do many leaves at once. Make double triple bonus sure to rinse the leaves afterwards even more than you think you need to. Trace amounts of bleach, when ingested, can build up and be fatal to the caterpillars!
Hey Rich! Your channel is amazing and very educating. I`m from Los Angeles and this is my first year of growing monarchs and unfortunately the first batch of 25 died (not my fault I didnt even know about it) after my apartment building was sprayed by and insecticide company. All of the sudden all of them from small to big (5th stage of larva) started throwing up a green liquid and died within couple of days.... I was trying to save them, brought them in, washed them all with water, cut off stems of the leaves from the outdoor plants and held them in the containers... Still all of them died. I collected a new batch of 16 just recently and planning to raise them indoors but I have no idea what to feed them. Would treating leaves with 5% bleach solution help to wash of the rest of the pesticides off my plants? Please help me with the advice. Thank you
Without knowing what the pesticide is, I can't advise on whether bleach treating the leaves would help. Most likely not, though, as there are pesticides that absorb into the leaves, and thus, would still be likely fatal to the caterpillars. If you recently collected 16, though, I would wonder where you collected them. Weren't they already on milkweed leaves? Couldn't that be a potential food source? My general advice, though, would be to not try and collect any from nature until a known safe food source has been secured.
I collected the eggs from the plants in my backyard (way after the plants were being sprayed) that I assume were affected by the pesticides. They are still in eggs so I have time to figure something out. I do have another patch from the front yard that was not affected by the spraying.
Gotcha...that makes sense.
If you have that other patch, that'd be the go to for me. Hopefully you can cut the leaves the eggs are on (assuming they are still attached to the leaves) in a way that leaves little to none of the original leaf left for the cats to eat. I wish them luck and hope they hatch for you! Sounds like a rescue effort.
Thanks, Rich! The leaves I originally cut them from already dried up and I also bleached them. Shall I cut to the ground the milkweed in my backyard?... I`m so bummed... I spent hours planting them and raising from seeds....
I'm not that much of a botanist/gardener. I admit that. I made a series on how to plant milkweed, but that's primarily because people were asking me for a method, and since I was already doing one, felt comfortable showing people what I was doing as far as collecting and germinating seeds, along with planting and growing them. Beyond that, I'm not in waters that I know very well. So, what I say here is my best guess, not something I know from experience. That said, if I were in your shoes, I know I'd be likely to cut them from the lowest leaf up, as that'd be the only way I'd be sure that there was no pesticide remaining on a portion the cats are likely to eat. Milkweed plants can be pretty tenacious. They are likely to grow back without much difficulty (but no guarantees).
Wow! Another great and informative video. I'm going to bleach all of eggs and leaves from here on out. I had bleached some leaves in the past and I lost a few cats after feeding them those leaves, but I think it was completely coincidental. If I do this with both the eggs and cats can I forgo testing for OE?
Lastly have you heard of anyone having success with the artificial foot you can order for them?
Thanks. Glad you checked this one out.
Can you drop the OE testing if you bleach? That's entirely up to you. First, even when someone doesn't bleach, whether they OE test is up to them or not. So, if someone's bleaching, OE testing will still be something they can decide.
I will always test for OE, and here's my reasons:
1) I will want to confirm constantly that bleach treating is working.
2) These days, since I started doing it, the note cards I wind up with become one way that I keep record of how many I release. It used to be all things I'd write down in a journal table I had in my notebooks. Now, I just keep the card, and I write the date of release (which is also the day it emerged), the sex, and whether it was "OE Clean" or "OE Infected". Then, at the end of the season, I can just count out how many cards I have. I can count only those clean and released to get my number for calculating success rate, and I can also calculate the level of OE that appears in my process compared to "clean", which, should be 0%. So, I know I'll always do it. If you test for OE often, it becomes pretty quick and easy. Then, I have a card to represent each Monarch I've released, and it also has its scales on there too.
They came in handy for this music video I made: th-cam.com/video/6PVDSA011No/w-d-xo.html
My leaves keep dying off with the eggs on it. What do I do?
I know it’s a year later but hoping to help newbies. The same thing happened to me. We have to dampen a pc of paper towel and wrap it around the stem of the leaf. That’s what I’m now doing and it seems to be keeping the leaves green. I had to get a magnifying glass to see the caterpillars. I only knew they were born because I saw all the poop.
How long can the bleach solution be stored. As a fish keeper, I know many people don't declorinate the water they add to aquariums, they simply let it sit for 24 hours and let the chlorine off gas. I would assume that a solution you make (although much more concentrated) would only be good for 24 hours to be an effective anti microbial. Yes? No?
As long as you keep the lid firmly on, it is a "closed system" and can last indefinitely. Bleach, as far as store bought bleach, is a solution of sodium hypochlorite. The sodium ions are in there just to balance the charge of the negative hypochlorite ion. The hypochlorite ion will establish chemical equilibrium with water to produce hypochlorous acid and hydroxide. Both the hypochlorite ion and the hydroxide ion do the "killing" for you, and can kill just about any microbial life. However, they hypochlorite can do further chemistry with the water, causing a small amount of it to decompose, and one such product is chlorine gas, which as you say, will evaporate out of the water. As long as the lid is left firmly on, though, the chlorine gas will redissolve in the solution, and react with water to reform the hypochlorite ion.
That's the long answer for saying, as long as you keep the lid on, the shelf life is indefinite.
I heard you should use the solution in 24 hours. So make a small batch and discard.
@@cocokitten4342 how long is bleach stored on the shelves of stores? Think about it.
Bottles of store brand bleach all have varying levels of the % of hypochlorite as some bottles are concentrated. So please update the % of hypochlorite was in the bleach you used. Thanks
Very helpful, every caterpillar i've raised this year has died before pupating and i could figure out why, the OE may be the problem, so i'm going to do this next year!
I wish you much luck. Follow the recipe and procedure diligently. You should have success. I've had many from Florida especially, where OE is rampant, tell me that they've raised many OE free Monarchs after trying this out. And I've done this process to all of my eggs this year without issue.
@@MrLundScience thanks! I watched your bacterial and NPV (i believe you called it) video you made and that was actually what was probably going on with mine, i lost 15 this year, they would be fine and then just start spitting out black stuff and when they died more of it would ooze out of them, so next year i will not only clean the eggs but all the leaves too! I've never had this problem before so i'm glad one of my subscribers told me about you!
What's nice about the process is that though NPV and bacterial infections can have similar symptoms, bleach treating takes care of both.
Great video! For what it’s worth, I’ve learned this tip from other Monarch raising groups: after the bleach bath I rinse the leaves and eggs in a jar of tap water with a splash of distilled white vinegar (nothing measured), followed by a rinse in clean tap water. Supposedly the vinegar water immediately neutralizes the bleach (I only rinse for a second or 2), and the tap water rinse afterwards cleans off any residual vinegar. It saves me a lot of time trying to get rid of the bleach, and it instantly gets rid of that slippery feeling bleach leaves behind. Works like a charm, and the caterpillars happily munch on the leaves afterwards. I’ve raised over 150 Monarchs this year and only lost 2 to suspected OE (by being in a rush and not following the strict cleaning regimen).
Greetings Heezeize!
Thank you for doing what you can to help out the Monarchs, and also for being willing to do the added step of bleach treating. As a chemist, though, I don't trust the vinegar idea. I'm not saying it *can't* work, as the chemistry behind the idea is sounds. Bleach's main ingredient that does the bleaching is the weak base, the hypochlorite ion. And adding a weak acid like vinegar (acetic acid) can certainly neutralize the hypochlorite ion. *However*, without proper measurements, one could possibly not neutralize all of the hypochlorite, and accidentally trust that they neutralized enough. Further, any vinegar treatment to the eggs can weaken the egg shell if over exposed. To have a standardized method, a vinegar concentration would need to be known, and correctly adjusted to match the neutralization of the bleach. Since those numbers won't be that easy to come by, I don't know that I'd go that route. That's just me, though. As the bleach is capable of being rinsed away, I myself will be sticking with this method. The vinegar, which needs to be rinsed away anyway, seems like an added unnecessary step. Still, I think it's cool to be thinking about such things and always looking for ways to improve our systems, so thank you for sharing this!
I hope you answer my questions!
So I learned of OE shortly after planting tropical milkweed along with damn near every milkweed I could get the seeds from. I live in between zone 7-8, so I don’t know what will happen with the plants. My thoughts are if I cut the tropical back down to the ground every year, when the native milkweed goes dormant, would this allow me the benefit of the tropical variety, and would it be safe for the Monarch? I will do my part to keep it cut down in the native dormant cycle. If you don’t think this will work, my plan B was to grow it in my greenhouse, in pots, let the Monarchs lay and eat. And at the end of the season, collect the seeds, and compost the plant. I know it’s safer, but If I can just cut it down every year, I’d rather do that. Please let me know before it’s too late.
While I am somewhat familiar with garden zones, I don't know them 100%. The question I'd ask is, is tropical milkweed native to your area? You have stated that you wish to receive the "benefit" of the tropical variety. What "benefit" are you referring to? Some would say that there are multiple benefits, so this is why I'm asking you to single out the one you mean, so it's easier to answer the question. In addition, some who work in the field of OE and study it would argue that some of the benefits aren't actually benefits, but can cause harm to the population. Tropical milkweed is perceived as having a benefit as it has what has been referred to as medicinal properties that help Monarchs resist OE. That certainly sounds like a positive thing. But, the problem arises that Monarchs that have this benefit still can be infected with OE, and the OE that still survives to the spore stage can potentially be a stronger strain, as it survived despite the medicinal properties. Thus, when those adult Monarchs spread the spores, they can be spreading a more virulent strain of OE, which can cause populations problems, especially if it is in areas where tropical milkweed is not native. With that said, I would not say that I myself am an authority on this decision. There's a variety of scientists who study milkweed, Monarchs, ecology, and parasites who have weighed in on this, and even they are not in agreement. So, think it would be pretentious of me to offer recommendation here. However, I did present this information for others to consider in this video: th-cam.com/video/5WEewtof3w8/w-d-xo.html
For my yard, my general idea is that if it isn't native to Michigan, I wouldn't want to grow it. That way, I know I'm playing it safe.
Good luck!
MrLundScience It is not native in my area as it supposedly cant survive the winter here. I’m assuming that if it dies back to the ground, or if it is cut, that it would basically just simulate the native milkweed in my area and cause no issues. Of course this concept hinges on the assumption that new growth would be free of the protozoan. The benefits that I am referring to are basically just the plant being the “preferred” milkweed of the Monarch to lay it’s eggs on(anecdotal evidence is all I’ve seen). I get not wanting to plant things that are non-native, but then of course we wouldn’t have fruit trees and varieties of fruits and vegetables if we all did that, so I can’t go along with that one. I just figured A. curassavica would be no more of a threat than native milkweed species if it was tended to very diligently. It seems to be demonized a lot.
You are correct that if it is cut down each year, the new growth would not have OE spores on it. The situation that could still arise, however, is if a wild Monarch that is infested with OE lays eggs on the plant. When those eggs hatch, they have spores on them, and even in the process of just eating out of the egg, the caterpillar could then be infected with OE. If it is fed the more medicinal tropical milkweed plants, then it's possible that the OE would not develop as much in that specimen, but it's also possible that more virulent OE strains could develop within that caterpillar. If that caterpillar makes it to an adult and is released, it then would be infested with not just any OE, but an OE strain that could cause more damage to a population than normal. With all that said, though, that doesn't mean that you need not have any tropical milkweed. I'm more just trying to explain why some object to it. If someone is bleach treating eggs and leaves, it essentially becomes a non-issue, and I know of a few who have tropical milkweed as their main food source for their cats, bleach treat, and have had no issues. For me personally, I only plant what is native in Michigan, but I don't say that from a point of view of thinking that this is what everyone needs to do. I just personally choose to go that route to avoid even potential mishaps, and it's more about happily staying out of the minor controversy that some people make out of it. Your point about fruit is certainly a good one! And again, that's why I am not "taking a stance" on it, so to speak, I just choose what I choose out of personal reasons. And if you look throughout the rest of the yard, you'll see that with flowers, my wife has already deviated from this idea of "native only". Ha! For my purposes, Common Milkweed is a preferred option mostly because of the leaf size. It's native to Michigan (and so many other places) and provides the largest leaves, which allows me to have much food on hand in a pinch. To keep my plants from being decimated, I still take leaves from nature, never more than two leaves from a plant. But not everyone has that option, of course.
I hope this discussion has helped in some way. Good luck in your efforts!
Be aware that you are taking the eggs from a "contaminated" plate, cleaning i, then [utting it back onto the contaminated plate. To be more sure of your process, you might want to consider using a second plate after the water rinse.
Fully agreed. An oversight on my part due to the logistics of filming. To get the close ups to show what was being done, I started putting them on the same plate, and just kept going. The humorous irony is that I had a second plate waiting there too, and just never used it, nor mentioned it. In the normal bleach treatment process I had been doing, a second plate is being used, but it's the plate I normally have the eggs on once I'm waiting for them to black tip.
@@MrLundScience Glad to hear it.It was a small thing, but could be a problem, especially if you had a large number of eggs. Thank you for sharing all your experience. I am a newbie to the monarch world but was a nurse for 100 years and sometimes it makes me a nit oicker. Happy weekend
@@barbarafaulkner4497 Nit picking is welcome. As I tell my students, science is a subject/field/world where yes, we sweat the details, and for good reason. So long as people are open to the idea that mistakes happen, I'm fully open to those mistakes being pointed out so they can be corrected. It's what keeps science healthy!
Is there a way to clean planted milkweed? I usually let my cats eat directly from the plants under the protection of a big tent but I believe the new plants I added recently have OE, since I just got my first group of butterflies with OE today.
Thanks a lot, very accurate and helpful information.
Hey, you're very welcome. Thanks for checking it out and being interested in the Monarchs!
Saw your post on Twitter. You lost cats to NPV? I wash all my leaves with 5% bleach solutions and rinse them very well before giving my cats leaves. This has helped tremendously in reduction of losses. When do you think your NPV video will come out. I know a lot of people will need help on this.
I'm not totally sure when NPV will be out. I have learned, don't set dates for when things will be out because
1) I'll probably be wrong and
2) It causes you to want to rush to meet that date, and the video can lose quality because of rushing.
I do know that many could be helped by just a discussion of NPV, and so it's on my priority list of trying to get it out before this summer season ends. But, as per usual, I have a lot on my plate.
Prior to this outbreak, I have had maybe five in total pass due to NPV (or at least, what very much looked like NPV). And this is over the 6 prior years. It was always just one caterpillar, isolated, and I would sanitize, and not see it again. So, I was not rinsing my leaves with bleach solution. Shortly after making this video on OE bleach treating, that's when the NPV outbreak occurred. Everything looked fine the night before, and then I woke up to find about 25 dead. Sanitation happened immediately, but by the end of that day, about six or seven more expired. It was about a third of what I was raising at the time.
After this experience, I am now bleach treating every leaf. I'll be mentioning this in the NPV video.
MrLundScience my cats are in what appears to be in the 5th instar. However some have been acting strange. Some went to the top of the container to j hang, and then instead they molted. And they're still up there. I'm very confused? Don't know what to do
If they molted again, that would be evidence that they were not in 5th instar yet. Thus, they were not going up there to J-hang, but to molt.
Most of my caterpillars will go onto the tops of the containers to molt. It's a normal occurrence. Keep in mind too, size doesn't tell us what instar a caterpillar is. Size can be based upon amount of food eaten, but also, just variance within the species. So, you can have a very large 4th instar, and you can have a small 5th instar, and the two could look very similar. A large 4th instar could in fact be larger than a very small 5th instar (though that'd be extreme).
MrLundScience nice to hear it's normal ! Was a little worried. I wish I could tell the difference between instars though. It's a little difficult :/
The colors on the fifths are richer than on the fourths. They'll be a deeper yellow and the black stripes will look velvety :)
(And if they're nearing the two-inch mark, they're probably fifths)
Would this mix be great for cleaning enclosures?
thank you so much for this information! it's my first year trying this and i've already released more than 25 butterflies since april 1st. it's been incredibl! i am currently raising them to be outside to have the natural elements but contained by a mesh bag around the plant. there was an just oe outbreak on the two potted plants so i euthanized all of the caterpillars & quarantined the rest. for future caterpillars though and on the potted plant, is it a good idea to dunk each leaf into this solution or even spray technique to further prevent the oe? i appreciate your time and yay for butterflies
Hello! I have four monarch chrysalis in my current tank and where I live, there's an actual butterfly club helping the Monarchs! Soon it will be come a actual butterfly rest stop.I have four butterflies and the butterfly club has 10. My question is how do I tell the Queen Butterfly (The leader) about the OE infection?
I suppose the best way to go about it is to ask them questions to see what they already know.
Ask them things such as, "Do you know of something called OE parasites?" See what they say. You could also give them links to my videos on it. People tend to not like being told what to do, but instead, if you're just trying to inform them, people are more receptive to that. Have them watch the first two videos on it, and they might start to understand *why* it's important to test for OE, and to not release if they have it. Let them come to the same conclusion on their own, rather than tell them something like, "Hey, this is what you're supposed to do." Does that make sense?
Thank you so much for these informative videos. This is my first year of raising monarchs. I have had 20 that I have released, and just recently started having problems with the monarchs in the chrysalis stage. The chrysalis will turn dark and sometimes a monarch will partially emerge and appears to get "stuck" and eventually dies. Othertimes a monarch emerges and appears to still have part of the chrysalis attached to its abdomen. This has happened several times recently. Do you think this is OE. The cats all look healthy and fat. The only problem is once they try to emerge from chrysalis. Thank you so much.
That is odd, for sure, and that it's happening multiple times does indicated some type of health issue from which they were exposed to the same source of it. It could be OE, but it could be something else entirely. Have you done any OE testing? If the Monarch is deceased, there's no harm in using tape to try to collect OE spores from it (or even the emptied chrysalis inside). Here's a video on how to test for OE: th-cam.com/video/pxXkAL1h2pw/w-d-xo.html
And here's another that shows another alternative way: th-cam.com/video/32IqyxjOUfM/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for these ideas
Rich I just watched your video and have a question about how OE gets on milkweed spores. Does it get transmitted by only Monarch butterflies or some other vector? Could I just spray a 5% bleach water selection on my milkweed plants instead of hand dip each individual leaf? Just wondering.....
Although we did have a short period of freezing weather, the winer in Maryland was milk. Do you know if OE is a problem in MD?
I really need you to answer. I can't find regular bleach it's either the no splash kind or the highly concentrated kind. Can you tell me the exact ratio of the chemicals on the bleach you used? I used the concentrated kind and all my cats died. I used the no splash kind and my butterflies still hatched with OE. They have different percentages. I have one that is 4.5% sodium Hypochlorite (no splash and seems to not kill OE) I have 7.5% sodium hypochlorite (killed all my cats) I also have 8.25 sodium hypochlorite which I don't want to use because it's even stronger. The internet gives me a range for bleach so I don't know what's safe. PLEASE ANSWER!
I live in Hawaii and have a huge milkweed garden for my butterflies. I am losing them to the Black Death from OE. Is there ANY way I can treat the plants to stop this infestation rather than trying to find and cleanse each egg? Is there ANY way to repel these parasites without cutting down my garden and starting again? They are well known on the island and I feel they will just come back if I get rid of them once. HELP (Kokua!)!
Do you know anything regarding Tropical Milkweed aka "Mexican milkweed" as being the major host milkweed plant for OE bacteria?
I don't know that the plant itself is what causes it to have high levels of OE as much as the range it's found in being warmer in general to other milkweed locations. In other words, yes, Tropical Milkweed has high levels of OE, but more accurately, warm climates where the milkweed stalks don't die off each winter has high levels of OE, and Tropical Milkweed *happens* to grow in those climates. It's less about what plant it is, and more about what climate that plant grows in.
MrLundScience Thanks! Got it. Cut down the stocks! Cut down the stocks! Cut down the stocks!.... Now, regarding milkweed pest such as aphids, do you have any suggestions or any plan on making a video of how to best prevent or get rid of these pests? I have large tropical milkweed plants in various locations at my house and the solution I had found was to trim up my stocks whenever these pests started to prevent them from spreading. Now, my problem is that coming home from a trip I found all my milkweed plants are covered in these pests and don't know whether I can save my milkweed or just cut down my stocks and wait to start afresh
That's actually part of the next video, and what I'm shooting today!
🙌 Will keep an eye out for your upload
Could you use vinegar instead? Vinegar isn't a chemical and kills the same as bleach if not better. I am just curious. Also what do you do with your milkweed that turns yellow and spotted(goes bad) do you pull it or just let it die off for the season?
Greetings Jennifer!
The first part to respond to will be the chemist in me not letting something go, but I hope you don't see it as me being a jerk. Not trying to be! But vinegar is a chemical. But that's also from the standpoint of all materials being chemicals. Water is a chemical. Oxygen is a chemical. I think you see what I'm saying. Still, vinegar is acetic acid. So the question is really, is there a concentration of acetic acid that can have an exposure time to the eggs that allows the eggs to stay healthy, but at the same time, will effectively kill the OE spores? Of that, I do not know. There might be. But, it would be illogical to assume that the same concentration as we do with the bleach, and the same exposure time as we do with the bleach would produce the same effects if it is a different chemical being used. To try and find what concentration and what exposure time is needed (and again, there might not be one that works), would require multiple eggs that we know are already tainted with OE, and exposing them to different concentrations and times to find out what combinations kill the OE, but don't kill the eggs. And needless to say, we'd have to kill some eggs to figure this out. As the work has already been done with finding a bleach solution concentration and exposure time that is effective and can keep the eggs safe, I would recommend sticking with it if we choose to do this, rather than getting into uncharted territory. I hope that makes sense.
Thank you for your quick response. That answer makes sense. What about my second question about the milkweed? Is that discussed in a different video? I have milkweed turning yellow and it gets all spotted with black spots. Do you pull 'sick' looking milkweed? ----side note I am on track to release around 80-90 butterflies this year. :)
Whooops! When I get asked a chemistry question, I like those so much, I forgot that there was a second question!
So that you fully understand where this answer comes from, I'm a chemist. A high school chemistry/physics teacher, but through and through, very much a chemist. A gardener - not at all. So, ask me a chemistry question, you're going to get a good answer. Ask me a gardening question and my answer amounts to little, I feel. With my milkweed area of my yard, I consider that a natural area and let nature take its course. I pull the occasional weed out of there, and by weed, I mean non-milkweed plant. Other than that, I completely leave it alone. I've never cut anything back, nor pulled anything out. But, what I'm describing is just what I do (or lack thereof) and not what I recommend others do. I have no recommendations about milkweed beyond 1) growing milkweed is awesome and it's awesome when people do it and 2) I recommend not using chemicals on it as those could harm Monarchs in ways we know of and ways we don't.
Sorry that I don't have a more thorough answer for you on that part. And 80-90 Monarchs!? That's so awesome! Excellent work!
I think my caterpillars and butterflies have this. My second deformed one just emerged and it led me here. Thank you for sharing a solution. I will keep my healthy looking butterflies in an enclosure so they don't spread it.
I tried bleach treatment and got 0/7 to hatch.
Discovering OE was devastating. Thank you for sharing.
hey rich, all my 30 5th instars made their chrysalis! the other 10 are getting ready to. (5th instar )now. And i wanted to let you know that i have been doing this ever since your original series so thank you. (some info)- i have about 6 more baby cats, in their 1st-2nd instar. i wanted to try the (skeptical) artificial diet with them. I know you had said you ordered it too. The place I got it from was educational science. I wanted to let you and your viewers know, I have had no luck with it. The cats are refusing to eat it. Even my baby 1st instars, which they recommend you start them on the diet at a young age or they may not eat it.. but even my first wont. I dont know if i made it wrong or what, but id like to see how it goes for you. as soon as they eat their egg shell you may need to start them on the diet. though not specified. let me know how it works for you!
That doesn't bode well...
MrLundScience elaborate?
what do you mean?
Meaning if your 1st instar cats aren't taking to it, that might not be a reliable product. It's something you, I, and others will have to collect some citizen science field testing data on.
did you yourself get it?
Thank you- great instruction here!
Is OE common in New England states, or does the dieback of milkweed in the winter prevent the OE infection from spreading in New England?
While there can be pocket areas that are higher than others, most areas that have harsh winters where the stalks of milkweed die off tend to not have very high amounts of OE. Each winter is like hitting the reset button.
Oh hey, one more question... about the frass. I used to raise worms for composting and would use their castings as fertilizer for plants in the yard. I was thinking that the monarch frass would act similarly, as fertilizer, reasoning that in nature the frass would drop to the ground as soil amendment for the milkweed plants, so I've been tossing the frass back into my milkweed pots, but after watching your sanitizing video, I'm wondering if this is a bad idea. Any thoughts?
Naw. Makes sense to me. And it's never harmed any milkweed plants before, for the last few millions of years they've been dropping it there, right? ;-)
Hi Rich,
I have two questions which maybe are things I just missed during the videos. First, if I put the eggs through the bleach process them feed them leaves from outside, isn't it very possible I will introduce the parasite to clean instars? What do I do about that? I read where someone said they put the leaves through the same bleach process but they dried out much quicker.
Secondly, where do you put the butterfly that you are testing for OE? Will there be OE on the yarn the chrysalises are hanging from? I guess what I'm basically asking is how do you prevent cross contamination of the newly hatched butterflies?
Thanks so much, Dawn
Greetings Dawn!
There might be a video that you haven't seen yet, as I have one on what your first question is asking. It shows how I bleach treat leaves: th-cam.com/video/2FE9646Z9xs/w-d-xo.html
Will this dry the leaves out at a faster rate? It's tough for me to give a definitive answer to that. From my experience, no, but at the same time, I don't distrust what others are saying. I just haven't experienced this. One reason might be, I use only Common Milkweed leaves, and perhaps other species of milkweed do dry out faster. Another reason is that if leaves are exposed for too long, they may absorb more of the hypochlorite (the active bleach ingredient) than if treated for the time I recommend in that video. Not trying to say any who you've heard this from are doing it wrong, but, let's admit that it's a possibility. On the heels of that, it's also possible that leaves might not be being rinsed as thoroughly. If someone is having issues with the leaves drying out too soon, and they are using Common Milkweed, my first recommendation would be to rinse them even more than they currently are, and see if that helps. If it does not, then the next step would be to double check their measurements, and double check their exposure time of the leaves (how long they are placing them in the solution). If all of that is being followed correctly, and they are using Common Milkweed, I'm really at a loss as to what to recommend. Again, I just don't have this happening with my leaves. (And with all of that, I've been assuming that they are wrapping paper towel around the leaf stem and moistening it, just as I do with my leaves.) If they are using a different species of milkweed, then that is the most likely variable in what is causing the difference in results, and I'm also at a loss as to what to recommend, as I just don't have easy access to those other species of milkweed. Still, I know of some in Florida who have reported to me that they are bleach treating their Tropical Milkweed, and that they are producing butterflies that are OE free, and none of those people have told me that their leaves are drying out. I imagine that if this was happening, they'd be reporting it.
I hope, somewhere in there, that answers your first question!
For your second one, as my adults emerge, they are in my screened in porch, and I certainly must let them do their thing during the first few hours so they can get their wings out and dried correctly. Once they are willing to fly off the yarn and onto one of the screens, I take that as a signal that they are ready for release. I try to test and release soon after that, but admittedly, yes, it's a possibility that if heavily infected, they could transfer spores to the yarn, or, to even my screens. Further, it's also a possibility that another butterfly could pick up one or more of those spores. However, while it's a possibility, it's not a likelihood. I'm lucky to live in Michigan where OE isn't prevalent. That already makes it a rare chance that they would have it. But since I also bleach treat eggs and leaves, it's pretty tough for OE to get into my system. Since bleach treating, I've had zero OE. That may just be because it's not too much around here in Michigan. But as stated before, some in Florida have told me that since they started bleach treating, they've had zero OE as well. If I lived in Florida or any other place where OE is much heavier, even though I'm bleach treating for OE, I probably would modify my process for eclosing. I'd set up separate containers for the adults to emerge in, preferably one at a time, so that it has room to dry its wings, but would only hypothetically contaminate that one container. (We buy dog biscuits in bulk containers that would be perfect for this, now that I think about it.) If a Monarch was tested from such a container and had OE, certainly that container would be sanitized fully, and this would prevent the spread of spores to others.
How was that? I hope this information was clear and what you were looking for!
MrLundScience
Hi Rich :)
I will watch that video, thank you. I've also read that we need to keep the cages dry so I stopped wrapping the ends in wet paper towel since I think I may have had that NVP. It's hard to know what to do sometimes. One person said we should spritz them with water. I have another sick caterpillar that hasn't eaten for over 24 hours but just sat there while it's two cagemates became chrysalises. Then today, all of a sudden, it started looking for a place to set but not before it passed one wet poop. I'm sure it will for before it chrysalizes I will start cleaning the leaves. I have been wrinsing them but just in water. My first butterfly will hatch soon. I bought a microscope and am set up to go. Not sure if I'm cut out for it. This will be the first caterpillar I've lost. Maybe I'm doing more harm than good. Maybe I should just plant milkweed.
Thank you very much,
Dawn
Yeah, how moist the container should be or should not be is another gray area, and a place where many will debate. I've read online discussions about it, not really chiming in, and have seen people argue back and forth without ever seeming to bring up that it matters what kind of container they cats are in. If it's small and not well ventilated, yeah, keep moisture to a minimum. If it's well ventilated and larger, moisture is unlikely to cause problems. With my method of wrapping the stems of leaves in moist paper towel, it's moist enough to prolong the freshness of the leaf, but I don't have mold problems. I do the same in my larger, 4th/5th instar container which is well ventilated, and I don't have problems. I don't spray any water on the leaves...caterpillars can get all the moisture they need from the leaves themselves if they are fresh. That's what I know, and don't care to step into the debates you may have seen too. For me, it's all about results, and with my process, I don't seem to have mold problems, so don't plan on changing something that is already working.
Hope that helps! If you still enjoy this, I say, don't give up. I tell students sometimes when they tell me that they aren't cut out for it, I remind them that we can improve at anything we wish to, if we're willing to put in the time and effort. I am horrible at skateboarding, I think, but can impress students with the tricks I do. I tell them time and again, I wasn't cut out for it at all...I just didn't give up and had to work hard to get where I am with it.
Hi Rich and thank you for your so informative vids!! My mother and I have raised Monarchs in Michigan for many years without any noticeable infections. However, I am now living in south Florida and am looking into getting the Giant Milkweed plants that down here are rather like large bushes..... my neighbor has hers and beautiful cats come and pupate but the butterflies are deformed and die.... It's awful as her bushes are loaded with them. Is there a known way to treat the total plant? Any suggestions? I understand that the bleach solution would be toxic to the cats and pupae, isn't there any way I can treat these plants that never get a deep freeze like up north?
Greetings! There's a couple of ways to address your question... Here's my best:
1) The short answer: No. Keep in mind that this is coming from a Science teacher who often encourages his students to not think in such terms of never, and impossible. So, perhaps I should edit my "No" to "Not in any way that is reasonable or feasible." I know, too, I'd be very reluctant to want to put any amounts of bleach or any other chemical that is effective at killing the spores out into nature. Humans trying to "solve" ecological problems have been a very large cause of other ecological problems. That the plant is out there in nature, taking the chemistry to the plant, rather than taking the leaves to the chemistry, has the potential to harm other things in ways we both can and can't predict. It's just all around ill advised.
2) Let's pretend for a bit that you could treat an entire plant. In Florida, there's a decent likelihood that within a short amount of time (A couple of days? A week?) the plant will be infested again with spores due to the high amount of infested Monarchs in that area. I don't even think the Starship Enterprise beaming every spore off of a plant is going to keep that plant safe/clean for Monarchs for very long.
So, with those two things in mind, what can you do? I would say, do what you can. Whether it's in Michigan, Florida, or elsewhere, with the method that I show in the Raising Monarchs series Parts 1 - 5, notice, the key point is that I'm taking the Monarchs out of nature, and into a controlled environment. Even in nature, they have less than a 10% chance of making it. (Some studies say as little as 3%, from egg to adult.) So, taking in whatever numbers you can, know that you're giving those specific Monarchs much more of a chance. Much more. And it means a lot to them.
Another thing to remember is that Monarchs and OE have co-evolved, and have been having this host/parasite relationship for millions of years, and long before us humans came around. The OE doesn't need to be eradicated. It's something that is also a part of nature, and just more abundant where winter doesn't knock it a blow every year. And, there's still Monarchs in Florida. If OE could wipe them out, it already would have, and, it would in turn wipe out the OE. So, while winter doesn't purge the OE in Florida, declines in the Monarch population does cause OE some problems. When the Monarch population is high, OE in that area soon spreads to many places. But, when that happens, it causes the Monarchs to become infected with higher doses, and more fatalities occur. The Monarch population lowers, which lowers the OE, and the cycle repeats.
This drama, again, has been happening for millions of years. The reason we wish to treat our current leaves that we take in, is because if we're rearing Monarchs to try and help them make it to adulthood, the last thing we'd want to do is expose them to anything that could kill them. It would defeat our purpose, and that purpose is simply to give an egg a better than "less than 10%" chance of making it to a flying adult. Once it can fly off, it's back in nature's hands, and subject to nature's whims, but that is the way it must be.
For these reasons, I wouldn't actually want to treat an entire plant, and just let nature do its thing. The reason I take in eggs is because humans have unnaturally caused decline in their numbers, and thus, I feel we have a green light to lend some artificial help to their numbers...but only in ways that don't disrupt the rest of nature.
I hope that helps! And I hope you're enjoying Florida...but admit it...you miss Michigan, don't you?
MrLundScience Hi Rich and thank you for the thorough reply! I haven't actually tested any of my neighbors Monarchs for the OE.... We were surfing the web for info regarding the cause of so many mangled Monarch butterflies off of her plants and came across your fabulous vids. Three days ago I called Butterfly World in Coconut Creek Florida (30 min drive from me) and spoke with someone in their lab regarding our situation. He told me that although OE is present here, the real problem is with the insecticides used in the nurseries. The plants are so saturated with them that the plants are toxic to the eggs, cates, and even the flowers are toxic for the adults to feed from. He said do not purchase ANY butterfly friendly plants/flowers from places like Home Depot, Lowe's, etc.... Purchase from a nursery that doesn't mass produce, and to ask the nursery where they're getting their stock. He said although they can't guarantee the plants coming from Butterfly World, they do purchase from a quality nursery. The only other way would be to grow them myself from seed. Bottom line is, I'm excited to say I'll be going to Butterfly World next week to pick out my Milkweeds!! I'll be sure to let you know how my plants produce, and yes, I do miss Michigan!! (But we here in Florida get to assist Monarchs all year!!) Thank you Rick you rock!!
Now don't get me wrong: Florida is awesome in and of itself. The humidity, honestly, is too much for me, but boy, do I love to visit. The amazing *reptiles* of that glorious state keep me always wanting to come back. Though we have some in Michigan, my first experience with a soft shelled turtle was in a forest in Florida. The anoles everywhere steal my heart every time. And at night, the geckos come out to play. And, Florida is home to the most dangerous snake in North America, the Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake. I think that animal is one of the most beautiful predators on this planet, and I am in awe of it.
Geckos eat the caterpillars
Should you use two plates? One for before the eggs are washed, and a second plate for after the eggs are washed? Could the washed leaves pick up OE spores from being placed on the original plate with the unwashed eggs/leaves?
Joann Gochnour pointed out the same thing. Yes, I would use two plates, and it's a good catch. Here's the reply I gave to Joann:
That's a pretty good point, Joann! Good catch. Bleach treating of the eggs in this way is more about getting any OE that is on the eggs killed. When eggs are laid from an OE infested mother, they can often have spores right there on the shell, and when the caterpillar munches out, even if it doesn't go back and eat more of the shell (though often they do), it may already be infected right from the get go. So, in the making of this video, I suppose I was more focused on showing how to treat the egg in this way, and overlooked the idea that you bring up. I think it's a low risk, but certainly in places where OE is heavy (which really, those are the primary raisers I made this video for), it's a true risk to be accounted for. So yes, a modification to this procedure that is definitely worth doing would be to have your starting plate, and then your "clean" plate that only comes into contact with Monarch materials after they have been bleach treated. Again, good catch!
I saw some black dots on the egg using a microscope. Can you see the OE on the eggs? If you can can you recheck the eggs to see is the OE is gone. Does the OE get removed or does it die on the caterpillar egg when washing them.
That's interesting... First, let me say, I don't know. But, it'd be cool to do a microscope slide test and see what happens to OE spores when treated with the bleach solution. See if and how they degrade, or any visual changes. I'm curious now too.
I read it was first found in Florida. Now it's all over the world. Has it always been around or did it get out of control from some country like so many invasions from China for example?
I don't know that it's all over the world, as Monarchs (and Queen butterflies, which also are affected by OE) are not all over the world. But, with that said, just as with any species of anything, it's first found somewhere. That OE was first found in Florida, that doesn't mean that it wasn't already where it currently is now, at the time of its discovery. In addition, the physiology of this parasite is very specific to the Monarch and Queen butterflies. This indicates that the parasite and those two species of butterflies have almost certainly co-evolved. That both the Monarch and Queen butterflies are the only two species affected by this parasite also indicates that most likely, the parasite was present prior to the Monarch and Queen being two distinct species, which would be on the time scale of millions of years ago. Does that make sense?
Do you have a way to bleach the entire plant (I'm in South Florida) in lieu of cutting off each leaf?
Could you set up a jar with coffee filter, fill it with the 5% bleach solution, put all your cut out eggs in for 1 minute and then rinse? In my mind, it would speed up the process a bit and ensure that you can find the egg, if it becomes dislodged. (Instead of possibly sticking to the side, as yours did. Thoughts?
As long as you can ensure that the eggs are only in the bleach solution for one minute, it shouldn't be a problem.
Keep in mind, you could submerge the egg (that is on the leaf snippet) in a smaller container. A tea cup? A small plastic bauble that gumball toys come in? And then there's less volume to "lose" an egg in. You would want to change the bleach in there after a few bleach treatments a bit more often since it's less of a volume and the bleach would react and dissipate sooner, but beyond that, it could help solve the issue you're concerned with.