Watching this video has been a VERY enjoyable experience for me primarily because it's been reassuring to know that common sense isn't totally dead. Thanks much.
Thanks - I'm always glad when people find these sort of videos interesting. Many of my replies to people's questions are trying to find a subtler way of saying 'are you sure this is the right question?' ;-)
Great video. Everything you said is so true. I remember when got my hp z3200 ps large format printer, I just knew I had an official Giclee printer 😂. It prints the most beautiful print I had ever seen. As I began to list my prints online, I was sure to include all the technical specifications about ink and paper 😂. But after listening to the comments of the buyers of my prints, I realized that nobody cares about the specs. All they really cared about is glossy, matte or canvas and does it come with a frame. Never mind that it uses 12 ($100.00) ink cartridges and $200.00 paper roll. Thanks for the reminder
I really like your style! The whole photography business is becoming like the wine industry; based mostly on snobbery rather than any objective measure.
I agree, went for a stroll with Sony a77, f5.6 150-500 lens nice carryable size oh of course with horror I was carrying an aluminium tripod. Well I bumped in to some nice shiny a7iv 400mm G2 clad heroes they looked at me with disbelief as if I was the second or was it third coming. Well they ofcourse bemoaned about the poor light, boring birds seen flying and what not, I stuck it out took some nice shots of swans landing pulling an impressive swell, a moorhen tossing weeds in the air with the water drops catching the light as if they were fine diamonds and scouted some lovely shots of the reeds great colours to shoot with a wider lens and a grad filter. All this on a shoestring camera.
Thank you for this awesome explanation. I also contribute that as a digital artist, resolution matters to me. It can alter perspectives if done properly. I intentionally set my resolution to where I can print my (child-like) art from Letter sized to bigger than A3+. You are absolutely correct about the new printers though. My Epson 8550 produces AWESOME prints...and I'm just beginning my journey. Keep up the GREAT work!!
Master printer. (A) Do you master the art of printing at any level? If yes, you could be called master. (B) Do you teach printing to beginner or advanced students of printing? If yes, then you could be called master. (C) Do you employ printer-people in a boss-employee relation? If yes, then you could be called master. It's simple, Keith, these qualifying questions are not in an AND relation, but they are in an OR. You can draw the conclusion yourself now? As someone who could answer one of these with yes, I would say you are a master printer.
Thanks Keith. Very informative. I've always heard of Giclee printers but until recently searching for information on them I'm coming to realize its a type and not a brand of printer. My Epson SC-P700 may not print as large an image as I want for some of my work but apparently it can probably print as good as a so-called "Giclee". For me the most important thing about a printer is how bright and brilliant can it print an orange color or such. Those are the things that set an typical print apart from one that "pops" and is truly special. Paper types, of course, play a big role in this endeavor as well. Anyway loved your video and thanks so much for not ruining it with some loud annoying music.
Thanks! The P700 is a pigment ink printer, capable of very good prints, so call it 'giclee' if you like ;-) There is no real meaning anymore in the term beyond marketing. That's assuming you're not looking at the original continuous jet printers from many years ago (which modern ones have rapidly overtaken in quality). Paper choice, profiling and editing skills are what really count (and of course, the photography!)
Thank you so much! I was concerned about how to offer my prints of my Canon pro 200 and this video just give me clarity. Giclée is an invented term to not mention the word "print" because it sounds cheap and diy, so someone invented it for marketing (and gallery) purposes. I laughed several times with your sarcastic tone of say "this is meaningless" 🤣🤣🤣
Love your videos. Really helped me decide on a printer model (p900), and your dry humor cracks me up! Thank you for such thoughtfully researched videos.
This is an education and I'm learning, so thanks very much this video (I've subscribed). I am an artist, a traditional painter, fairy art painter on x, and I was looking into costs etc. of getting prints made from my art in the future. My researches into printing so far show me it's all a bit of a minefield, so your clarity comes as a breath of fresh air. Thanks again!
Glad it was helpful! If you've not seen it, I have a full categorised index of all my videos on out site at: www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-cooper-photography-videos-index/
Always entertaining hearing your thoughts Keith. The whole issue of print longevity and archival capability is really down to how the end user looks after the print ultimately. Sure, acid free papers with no optical brighteners using high quality pigment inks are a great start. The print however isn't going to last long if it's displayed in an area with day long sunshine beaming onto it particularly if the print isn't behind glass. Not much use either if in addition to that the print is subjected to moisture, humidity, fumes, smoke, dust, etc. I'd wager that a cheap dye ink print using a generic budget gloss paper would outlast that print if it was stored away in total darkness in an album at the bottom of a drawer for 20 years 😊 All these claims of print longevity come with all manner of proviso's which have to be strictly adhered to meet the potential lifespan the likes of Canon or Epson claim. My car came with a 3 year warranty but if I shrink wrapped it from new and stored it away in a barn for 50 years it'd likely be as good as the day I bought it after that time 😋 So really, all these archival claims are best likely case scenarios assuming all the conditions regards it's display and storage are taken into account. The Tate or Guggenheim might meet that criteria for their art displays with perfect climate controlled galleries. It's highly unlikely Mr Blogs from Scunthorpe living in a three bed semi who bought your beautiful landscape A2 print also does lol 😁
Cars are slightly different to art - in that, a car left in a barn for decades will have components seizing, deteriorating, binding etc. where the cosseted daily driver would be in better condition. Cars have moving parts that need to be serviced and maintained, unlike art.
Some print companies charge a lot more for "giclee" prints. Giclee is just another word for inkjet print. The papers the use for these prints don't cost any more than other top-quality papers.
@@KeithCooper I’m inclined to think, as a professional photographer, they mean that it’s “quality” or look, it’s comparable to a positive silver photosensitive developing paper, but then again, there is bad developing paper and there is good, but probably their are using it as a benchmark or synonym to describe the sharpness, contrast and durability of the silver halide paper. I’ve been watching all your reviews of this printer since I’m very interested in acquire one. I’m a professional portrait photographer but I do all sorts of works in photography and I’m interested in adding some prints to make my offers more attractive, but I don’t what to relay on a photo lab for small orders. As far as you have experienced, do you think this printer will produce a result that might be undifferentiated to a professional lab positive?
@@TheGabrielStudios Ah yes, whilst that's a possible meaning. But I'm also a professional photographer and silver halide papers have no place in my work ;-) I prefer to assume this particular use of 'quality' is the result of a get together of a marketing team somewhere. The problem I have in testing is that all these terms have no real defined meaning, much like when someone tells me a print has 'depth' and I have the temerity to ask them to explain the exact meaning of the term ;-) The 8550, with good profiling and paper choice, is capable of very nice prints. However you need to consider your market and what it expects from prints. When I sell prints I'm selling stuff that will 'last' and charge accordingly. The 8550 prints will look good - especially bright colourful ones. However it's not a printer I'd choose for my black and white work - I have a larger P5000 pigment ink based printer, where I've recently produced a series of prints for someone's exhibition, from lots of 1960's 35mm/120 negs, where definite 'silver print' look was required.
This is great information. Thank you so much! I'm an artist and bought an Epson XP-970 to make prints. I was curious if I could call them "Giclee" or not. It is good to know that term is purely a marketing term.
It does go some way to explain why I couldn't find a definition of "giclee" 15 years ago. No tech spec, no material types - nothing. Only that it was "fine art".
Very helpful video as always. I only started looking into quality printing in the last couple of years (some years ago b&w darkroom) . I did think that GICLEE was a specific type of printing 🤗. Thanks for clearing that up 👍
"Giclee - it's also French slang, but we won't go into that." Made me laugh! I remember reading that it's rather a rude term... Always struck me odd that it was used to describe what we were to believe were high end prints.
I'm loving your videos! I've gone down the rabbit hole of researching which printer to get. I'd like one up to 13" wide to sell art prints, cards etc. I do both watercolor and digital art. I've now got it in my head I'll need a pigment based ink printer so the prints do fade or even smudge if they get wet. Basically I want the prints I sell to be of good quality, but I'm definitely not trying to be snobby! This has put things into perspective for me a little bit. I should probably really consider what it is I'm really needing and make a decision! I know of lots of artists who sell lots of prints using dye based ink on printers like the epson 7750 and the Canon ix6850. I love how honest your videos are. They're very helpful, though I still haven't made a decision. Thanks for the helpful videos! I'll be watching some more to help me pull the trigger. 😏
Knowing your market is never easy - As printmakers we often worry about things that have no importance to customers. If it helps sell a print, it's good, otherwise, is it just a cost? Artists and photographers have a lot of difficulty in seeing their work as a product - I do as well, but had to accept it in many instances...
Hey, I thought I would just ask what type of printer you ended up getting? I've gone down the same rabbit hole and really can't figure out which printer to buy... Sounds like you were looking for the same thing. Did you find one you're happy with?
Brilliant Keith. Love how you pull this bullsh*t apart....saying that, I'm off to check my website to see if I haven't accidently called myself an architect of light or something daft like that! lol
Ever since I've delved into the printing world, the fact that (6:26) desktop printers have higher print resolutions puzzles me. I'd assume that if I use a larger format printer that the higher resolutions would be "pointless" as you tend to not be close enough to the print the actually see that detail.
It's obviously more complex than I mention, but in general, desktop printer have smaller print heads with jets ...sometimes... closer together. Large format printers are made for production use, so have bigger heads, lots more nozzles and features designed for speed. The nozzle density varies widely, as does the way those nozzles are used... There is also the fact that some of the very highest settings on desktop printers are a fiction - they are implemented in software and don't represent 'real' resolutions at all. They slow printing down and are simply not implemented on larger format printers. And, yes, there is the fact that large format printers are not designed for printing 6x4 snaps ;-) It's a complex subject which can be difficult to tease apart from supplied info, which is always produced for marketing...
Thank you! One thing that is holding me back from finishing my website is trying to figure out the best way to reproduce copies of my original paintings. Either find a local printer or buy a printer. If buy a printer which one? You helped me so much!
Do you already have them photographed or scanned? Lighting is key if there is any texture of note. Unfortunately, 'Best' means not a lot here - it all depends on your editing setup and experience with it. Colour management is vital especially to match some pigments, which can be tricky to capture and reproduce. Art repro is quite a technical part of photography and printing.
@@KeithCooper Thank you for replying. Yes, scan them 600 dpi, then open in photoshop to adjust if necessary. The medium I work in is Alcohol Ink. I would add one of my paintings to my reply if I could. I want to use either a local printer or print my own. I have used the color toner copier at work, it is a large industrial type used for graphics and photos. It is just what is the best paper for the laser copier? I can print up to 11x14. If I sold a 16x20 I would then have to print elsewhere. Thanks again!
Ah, there I can't help - I've never tested colour laser printers at all, so my paper knowledge is not of much help. My main concern would be that toner based devices are notorious for being difficult to manage colour. However... You have the tremendous advantage of being able to judge whether your own reproductions are OK for you - ask anyone in art repro what are the major difficulties for them and (if they are honest) it will include having to deal with artists ;-) :-)
Thanks - despite what people might assume, it's getting people to think about printing, that is one of my key aims - and that includes not doing it ;-)
I think it is good to use terms like fine art print or giclée and then it means a good quality print, printed on quality paper with pigment inks. You guarantee that the picture will last long enough (if not put in the direct sunlight) so that the customers won't get disappointed later. But because most costumers don't understand the spesific terms it is good to explain them shortly, not too much details. Only certain people like photographers or artists might however be interested about the more spesific details. But what I as an artist and printmaker (not as a consumer/client!) would like to know is the definition of pigment ink, because I think there cannot exist any colors without pigments, or can there? Also dyes must have pigments, or must they? But are there used different pigments? More synthetic? Less concentrated and more fillers or what? Cheaper and less longlasting combinations of substances? Is the medium different or no medium at all in pigment inks? What is pure magenta, cyan, yellow, black pigment made of? As far as I understand they are all some kind of combinations, nor pure pigments. In fine art paints quality pigments are made of certain substances, like certain minerals some of which are more longlasting or have more opacity than others. You can buy pure ultramarine or other color as a powder. Some are more expensive than others. As far as I know plant pigments are in the averige not as longlasting as mineral pigments. Artist quality paints have more pigment and less fillers. It is also possible to make quality paints yourself just by combing the pigment powder with the medium (acrylic, gum arabic, linseed oil, egg...) But I haven't so far studied the world of the pigments used in digital printers.
In general: Pigment inks use very finely ground pigments - they may be encapsulated or supplied in some other form but are in essence, finely ground pigment. A coloured substance. Dyes are substances dissolved in a solvent - they may or may not not have a colour until dissolved. The colour of pigments is caused by interactions of light with the molecular structure of the pigment - in the same way a dissolved dye spreads through a solvent and the solution interacts with light. As you say, pigments come from a wide variety of sources, but dyes and pigments (in printing) are all 'synthetic'. That just describes their sources - 'natural' minerals are simply too variable for the levels of quality control required. Fine art and giclee mean whatever you want them to mean - pure marketing terms on their own. Best not to confuse the punters with any caveats or detail ;-) That is the essence of using them as marketing collateral. Now, don't get me wrong, I would emphasise the quality of my printing and longevity of my product too, if it were relevant to the market segment I was aiming at. I want customers to think they are buying something of a premium product... But it won't stop me calling out any instances of marketing hokum, when I see them though ;-) :-) Any time I see the word 'Giclee' used, other than in the context of the historical development of ink-jet printers, I know for sure, the dead hand of marketing has been at work... ;-)
Thanks - I've an X-Rite iSis XL spectrophotometer and an X-Rite i1iO (with i1Pro 2) which I use with i1Profiler ( i1Publish) for most profiling. I've assorted other kit (ColorMunki/i1Studio/SpyderPrint) which I've got from my reviews over the years, but I only tend to use that for demo purposes.
Firstly, thank you very much Keith, for sharing your knowledge and experience. I find your videos about the ET-8550 interesting and engaging. My concern after viewing several, is the sense of "killing with faint praise" that I'm left with. Like you, I'm not particularly interested in the "home-office" features (e.g. scanning and copying etc.). I am however, interested in print quality, ink permanence, media format flexibility (max size etc.), and the running cost of inks. I print for camera club competition, and hopefully, some print-for-sale in the not too distant future. Print quality is really important...measured simply as... "how closely does it resemble the image on my screen (accepting of course the distinction between backlit calibrated monitor versus incident light on disparate papers)"? Your videos highlight the need for profiles, but here's the issue... even with your undoubted expertise, your profiling equipment, and the quality of your own starting images, your description of what you have printed seems muted. Yes, the go-to answer to my situation is "pay the money and go for the dedicated photo printers", but they are large-footprint, and prohibitively ink-expensive. I'd really like to know if the ET-8550 can/will produce prints that an experienced judge of print competition images will find better than just "acceptable"?
Ah, you should know I'm from Suffolk, where the exact emphasis on the word 'alright' covers moderate to excellent ;-) However, it is capable of very good looking prints that even the pickiest judges would have difficulty in finding (justifiable) fault with. As with dye based printers some weakness comes in B&W performance. For colour it is about paper choice and profiling. I perhaps take issue with "how closely does it resemble the image on my screen" as a true measure of quality - but I've rambled on about that at length elsewhere ;-) (I've a video related to this later today). However, for selling prints, sure you can make some nice ones - would I want to sell dye based prints? Not at the prices I'd want (see my collection of videos about selling prints), and therein lies the choice - what quality product fits your market? My limited experiences alongside 'full time' judges have been 'variable' - I found them intensely annoying in their attention to pointless rules and detail, but hey, that's just me ;-) I will occasionally help judge competitions, but I warn in advance about my entirely arbitrary decision process ;-) That said, this is a consumer/enthusiast level printer which can produce good looking prints as well. Does it pass the test where duff prints reflect the lack of expertise of the user far more than limitations of the printer - yes (and for me too on occasions)
Many thanks Keith. Colour is certainly a science, but colour perception isn't, so when I talk about screen/print similarity, I just want reasonable confidence that when I spend a few hours on post-processing to get a certain tonality and texture, that the output will not be so disconnected that I'm just left frustrated facing into further hours of tweaking settings. The availability of profiles for this printer from paper manufacturers will be key. I use Permajet Oyster and Portrait White mostly, so a profile for these would be welcome. I'll check out your videos on commercial-quality printing.
You're right that profiles and a well set-up monitor are the key to confident printing. Once that is established, you can think more of the print as a final work in of itself rather than a print of the screen. it lets you make use of the fact that the best looking image on screen is sometimes not the image that makes the best looking print. That needs basing on solid colour management and print experience though ;-) In some ways, my aim is to think of the image on the screen as just an intermediary - like a negative.
Thanks Keith. Yes, as you have said in your videos, the intent of the output is key. You make a good point, if you are producing for projected media output, the monitor image is the end game, if the intent is commercial print, the monitor image is an intermediary.
@@KeithCooper I see. Well here’s how it’s advertised: Giclee on Canvas: Breathing Color Lyve Canvas, 19mil 450GSM, Acid Free, No Optical Brighteners (OBA), Certified Archival Epson archival UltraChrome HDR Pigment inks $1695 Lithograph: 40 x 18” certified archival fine art lithograph print, image dimensions 36 x 14” Smooth, Matte Finish, Acid-Free, Archival Fine Art Paper, 280gsm $650 Sorry I thought it was giclee on lithograph. In your opinion is it worth the price difference to go with giclee on canvas?
Two very different processes 'Giclee' is art marketing nonsense! Anywhere you see the term used, assume it's so as to charge you more. It is inkjet - plain and simple ;-)
Hi Keith, do you have any video from taking a photograph> to bringing it to editing software> to final print? I would be interested of seeing one with this printer. I am considering buying the printer, but hesitant. Cheers, Mika
I don't really cover that with specific printers since they are not generally the printers I use for my work (which tend to be bigger ones). The videos would also be almost identical, with the only differences being the specific printer settings (which is what I do cover). Essentially I'm saying that the choice of printer would have no effect on my photography or basic image editing - certainly not for small desktop printers like this. Making big prints, yes, but not A3+ I have much more about this sort of stuff in written articles on the Northlight site - remember the videos are generally there to support and complement written articles/reviews. www.northlight-images.co.uk/photography-articles-and-reviews/printing-paper-reviews-articles/ The nearest is the look at making a B&W print (which has a video as well to supplement it) www.northlight-images.co.uk/making-a-black-and-white-photograph/
Are we not just interested in providing the best possible image, whether the customer can see it or not? I feel it's a matter of pride (good pride) and respect. On the ink statement: I would have to say that there are better inks, and one should use K3 inks as standard; otherwise, there is a high likelihood of bronzing in the blacks. Secondly, or is it thirdly? The dpi is important to me, as the lower the dpi (all other variables are the same), the more banding distortion some images are likely to incur. The printer manufacturers don't just put high DPI out there for sales; it does have value to the customer. Lastly, many seem to view the world through only their eyes; they are ignorant and oblivious to the fact that many people have eyes that see the world far better than others. The old 20/20 eye test is so outdated that it's laughable. You (talking to anyone reading) may not see the difference, but many can, so don't assume that because it all looks okay to you, it does to everyone else.
Indeed all aspects of understanding the customer - which aspects are important matters, but far more to have actually thought about it which many don't. How you decided on your marketing and how that is pitched to customers is yet another area of consideration - I'd happily use the term 'Giclee' - it impresses those who deserve to be impressed ;-) As to 'the best possible' I've never been a subscriber to that particular school of perfectionism. I have different [high] standards for different uses - I may well exceed those standards sometimes, but I simply don't have a [personally] meaningful notion of 'best possible' - especially in any business context. I don't want perfectionists working for me other than on a fixed price contract and with penalty clauses for over-runs... ;-) [YMMV obviously ;-) ]
When people ask about print quality, just answer "Most printers, at the highest setting for sure, will be better than offset print presses, which do most of printed materials in the world... the photo printer is about mimicking film lab photo"
I'd start with knowing what you mean by 'best quality' - it depends what you are printing, the size and why you are printing... The problem is that 'Best' has no objective meaning
24 inch artworks I want them as posters, a good quality paper but aware I want to keep pricing so anyone can afford them. I'm completely new to this. Love creating, this bit not so much.
24" wide? Only a few printers support this, so at the cheaper end, the Canon TC-20M is a reasonable 'poster printer' For the quality I'd want for my work, a P7500 or PRO-2100 would suffice. All depends on the market you are in 'pricing anyone can afford' is commendable, but not a sound business principle, without a lot of care in pricing and costing. I have quite a few related videos in the 'business of photography' play list. If you are getting prints made, then there are all sorts of options, but this depends on where you are and the volumes you are after. Just remember that anyone offering printing who uses the word Giclee on their web site is aiming at 'higher end' and charging accordingly. It's pure marketing and a means of charging more to people impressed by it ;-) Would I be unfair if I described 'Giclee' as a 'sucker tax' - hmm... maybe ;-) :-)
Aren’t‘ pigment’ and ‘dye’ inks just a marketing term? Isn’t ink just ink? Wouldn’t it be better to say water based vs oil based or alcohol based or something of that nature..?
No, in this instance, they are quite different A more precise usage would be to call them pigment or dye based aqueous inks. Once you get beyond desktop inkjets, the range of inks expands considerably, but they are meant for commercial uses Yes, the terms are used in marketing, but in this instance, there are real differences as well ;-)
@@KeithCooper Okay. I'm just learning about this. What is a pigment ink exactly? Is it similar to paint pigments: colours derived from pure compounds like cobalt, cadmium etc?
The pigments are particles of pigment encapsulated usually in a clear binder. The dyes are a much finer solution or suspension (depends on the solvent chemistry) The WP article on this is actually a very well written introduction to the topic en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkjet_printing
th-cam.com/video/oQLfEtoND0Y/w-d-xo.html and then 8 inks isn't enough...next you have people claiming Giclee has to have 11 tanks....then 11 isn't enough and you needs 15....etc....etc...etc...Giclee seems to be mis-used frequently or used to try to fluff up a BETTER printer or printing process. (and better is 100% subjective, unless it has the specifications to prove its superior)
Probably some good points in the video but took too long to get to them. Quit repeating and over emphasizing etc. Few topics like this are worth a 20+ minute video.
They are what they are I'm afraid - your 'too long' is someone else's 'in depth' The feedback I get is very strongly towards the latter. This is one of my older early videos though.
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Watching this video has been a VERY enjoyable experience for me primarily because it's been reassuring to know that common sense isn't totally dead. Thanks much.
Thanks - I'm always glad when people find these sort of videos interesting.
Many of my replies to people's questions are trying to find a subtler way of saying 'are you sure this is the right question?' ;-)
Great video. Everything you said is so true. I remember when got my hp z3200 ps large format printer, I just knew I had an official Giclee printer 😂. It prints the most beautiful print I had ever seen. As I began to list my prints online, I was sure to include all the technical specifications about ink and paper 😂. But after listening to the comments of the buyers of my prints, I realized that nobody cares about the specs. All they really cared about is glossy, matte or canvas and does it come with a frame. Never mind that it uses 12 ($100.00) ink cartridges and $200.00 paper roll. Thanks for the reminder
Thanks! - it can be a sobering thing when you realise why people like your work ;-)
I’m an artist. Thank you for the straightforward explanation of how to choose a printing partner 😊
Thanks - glad it was of interest!
I really like your style! The whole photography business is becoming like the wine industry; based mostly on snobbery rather than any objective measure.
Thanks!
How true! I'm happy to stay very mediocre and average with my run of the mill inkjet prints.
I agree, went for a stroll with Sony a77, f5.6 150-500 lens nice carryable size oh of course with horror I was carrying an aluminium tripod. Well I bumped in to some nice shiny a7iv 400mm G2 clad heroes they looked at me with disbelief as if I was the second or was it third coming. Well they ofcourse bemoaned about the poor light, boring birds seen flying and what not, I stuck it out took some nice shots of swans landing pulling an impressive swell, a moorhen tossing weeds in the air with the water drops catching the light as if they were fine diamonds and scouted some lovely shots of the reeds great colours to shoot with a wider lens and a grad filter.
All this on a shoestring camera.
Thank you for this awesome explanation. I also contribute that as a digital artist, resolution matters to me. It can alter perspectives if done properly. I intentionally set my resolution to where I can print my (child-like) art from Letter sized to bigger than A3+. You are absolutely correct about the new printers though. My Epson 8550 produces AWESOME prints...and I'm just beginning my journey. Keep up the GREAT work!!
Thanks - glad it was of interest
Master printer. (A) Do you master the art of printing at any level? If yes, you could be called master. (B) Do you teach printing to beginner or advanced students of printing? If yes, then you could be called master. (C) Do you employ printer-people in a boss-employee relation? If yes, then you could be called master.
It's simple, Keith, these qualifying questions are not in an AND relation, but they are in an OR. You can draw the conclusion yourself now?
As someone who could answer one of these with yes, I would say you are a master printer.
I guess so ;-)
I need to add it to my marketing materials ;-)
Thanks Keith. Very informative. I've always heard of Giclee printers but until recently searching for information on them I'm coming to realize its a type and not a brand of printer. My Epson SC-P700 may not print as large an image as I want for some of my work but apparently it can probably print as good as a so-called "Giclee". For me the most important thing about a printer is how bright and brilliant can it print an orange color or such. Those are the things that set an typical print apart from one that "pops" and is truly special. Paper types, of course, play a big role in this endeavor as well. Anyway loved your video and thanks so much for not ruining it with some loud annoying music.
Thanks!
The P700 is a pigment ink printer, capable of very good prints, so call it 'giclee' if you like ;-) There is no real meaning anymore in the term beyond marketing.
That's assuming you're not looking at the original continuous jet printers from many years ago (which modern ones have rapidly overtaken in quality).
Paper choice, profiling and editing skills are what really count (and of course, the photography!)
Thank you so much! I was concerned about how to offer my prints of my Canon pro 200 and this video just give me clarity. Giclée is an invented term to not mention the word "print" because it sounds cheap and diy, so someone invented it for marketing (and gallery) purposes. I laughed several times with your sarcastic tone of say "this is meaningless" 🤣🤣🤣
Thanks!
Excellent thoughtful reviews and analysis. Consistently the best videos i've come across on youtube regardless of subject matter.
Thanks - that's much appreciated
Love your videos. Really helped me decide on a printer model (p900), and your dry humor cracks me up! Thank you for such thoughtfully researched videos.
Thanks - glad to have helped!
This is an education and I'm learning, so thanks very much this video (I've subscribed). I am an artist, a traditional painter, fairy art painter on x, and I was looking into costs etc. of getting prints made from my art in the future. My researches into printing so far show me it's all a bit of a minefield, so your clarity comes as a breath of fresh air. Thanks again!
Glad it was helpful!
If you've not seen it, I have a full categorised index of all my videos on out site at:
www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-cooper-photography-videos-index/
Always entertaining hearing your thoughts Keith. The whole issue of print longevity and archival capability is really down to how the end user looks after the print ultimately. Sure, acid free papers with no optical brighteners using high quality pigment inks are a great start. The print however isn't going to last long if it's displayed in an area with day long sunshine beaming onto it particularly if the print isn't behind glass. Not much use either if in addition to that the print is subjected to moisture, humidity, fumes, smoke, dust, etc. I'd wager that a cheap dye ink print using a generic budget gloss paper would outlast that print if it was stored away in total darkness in an album at the bottom of a drawer for 20 years 😊 All these claims of print longevity come with all manner of proviso's which have to be strictly adhered to meet the potential lifespan the likes of Canon or Epson claim. My car came with a 3 year warranty but if I shrink wrapped it from new and stored it away in a barn for 50 years it'd likely be as good as the day I bought it after that time 😋 So really, all these archival claims are best likely case scenarios assuming all the conditions regards it's display and storage are taken into account. The Tate or Guggenheim might meet that criteria for their art displays with perfect climate controlled galleries. It's highly unlikely Mr Blogs from Scunthorpe living in a three bed semi who bought your beautiful landscape A2 print also does lol 😁
Yes, from some of the questions I get, a lot of people don't ever go past the headline numbers ;-)
Cars are slightly different to art - in that, a car left in a barn for decades will have components seizing, deteriorating, binding etc. where the cosseted daily driver would be in better condition. Cars have moving parts that need to be serviced and maintained, unlike art.
Thank you, Keith, for another very good video.
Thanks
You are a great person help me thank you.
Thanks!
Enjoyed this episode Keith.. Loved the way you honestly put the discussion. Real honest opinion.. cheers
Thanks - that's appreciated!
Some print companies charge a lot more for "giclee" prints. Giclee is just another word for inkjet print. The papers the use for these prints don't cost any more than other top-quality papers.
Too true - my art marketing BS detector alarm goes off every time I see the word used ;-)
I love your videos! They've been helping me navigate through my art print start up.
Thanks for that!
Thanks, Keith. You are a wealth of useful information.
Thanks!
you are gold for this!
Thanks!
Loving my 8550!!! The box didn't lie about 'lab quality' prints.
Ah 'lab quality' ... given that means absolutely nothing, it is indeed not a lie ;-) :-)
... but yes, it can give good prints
@@KeithCooper I’m inclined to think, as a professional photographer, they mean that it’s “quality” or look, it’s comparable to a positive silver photosensitive developing paper, but then again, there is bad developing paper and there is good, but probably their are using it as a benchmark or synonym to describe the sharpness, contrast and durability of the silver halide paper.
I’ve been watching all your reviews of this printer since I’m very interested in acquire one. I’m a professional portrait photographer but I do all sorts of works in photography and I’m interested in adding some prints to make my offers more attractive, but I don’t what to relay on a photo lab for small orders. As far as you have experienced, do you think this printer will produce a result that might be undifferentiated to a professional lab positive?
@@TheGabrielStudios Ah yes, whilst that's a possible meaning. But I'm also a professional photographer and silver halide papers have no place in my work ;-)
I prefer to assume this particular use of 'quality' is the result of a get together of a marketing team somewhere. The problem I have in testing is that all these terms have no real defined meaning, much like when someone tells me a print has 'depth' and I have the temerity to ask them to explain the exact meaning of the term ;-)
The 8550, with good profiling and paper choice, is capable of very nice prints. However you need to consider your market and what it expects from prints. When I sell prints I'm selling stuff that will 'last' and charge accordingly. The 8550 prints will look good - especially bright colourful ones.
However it's not a printer I'd choose for my black and white work - I have a larger P5000 pigment ink based printer, where I've recently produced a series of prints for someone's exhibition, from lots of 1960's 35mm/120 negs, where definite 'silver print' look was required.
Hi Keith,
nice video to separate reality from nonsense. Thanks! .-)
Doing the opposite is perhaps one definition of marketing ;-)
Hello, Keith! Thank you so much! love your stile and honest opinion! you help me a lot 🙂
Thanks - glad it's of interest!
Thanks so much Keith!
This is great information. Thank you so much! I'm an artist and bought an Epson XP-970 to make prints. I was curious if I could call them "Giclee" or not. It is good to know that term is purely a marketing term.
Thanks - yes, one of those things which now almost means whatever you want it to mean ;-)
It does go some way to explain why I couldn't find a definition of "giclee" 15 years ago. No tech spec, no material types - nothing. Only that it was "fine art".
Yes - 99.9% marketing ;-)
Keith, most interesting, thanks.
Thanks David - I've had quite a few people ask if the 8550 is 'good enough' to sell prints, and for many purposes it probably is ;-)
Very helpful video as always. I only started looking into quality printing in the last couple of years (some years ago b&w darkroom) . I did think that GICLEE was a specific type of printing 🤗. Thanks for clearing that up 👍
Thanks - always watch out for the dead hand of marketing at work ;-)
"Giclee - it's also French slang, but we won't go into that." Made me laugh! I remember reading that it's rather a rude term... Always struck me odd that it was used to describe what we were to believe were high end prints.
Yes, a wonderful bit of marketing.
I'm loving your videos! I've gone down the rabbit hole of researching which printer to get. I'd like one up to 13" wide to sell art prints, cards etc. I do both watercolor and digital art. I've now got it in my head I'll need a pigment based ink printer so the prints do fade or even smudge if they get wet. Basically I want the prints I sell to be of good quality, but I'm definitely not trying to be snobby! This has put things into perspective for me a little bit. I should probably really consider what it is I'm really needing and make a decision! I know of lots of artists who sell lots of prints using dye based ink on printers like the epson 7750 and the Canon ix6850. I love how honest your videos are. They're very helpful, though I still haven't made a decision. Thanks for the helpful videos! I'll be watching some more to help me pull the trigger. 😏
Knowing your market is never easy - As printmakers we often worry about things that have no importance to customers. If it helps sell a print, it's good, otherwise, is it just a cost? Artists and photographers have a lot of difficulty in seeing their work as a product - I do as well, but had to accept it in many instances...
Hey, I thought I would just ask what type of printer you ended up getting? I've gone down the same rabbit hole and really can't figure out which printer to buy... Sounds like you were looking for the same thing. Did you find one you're happy with?
Brilliant Keith. Love how you pull this bullsh*t apart....saying that, I'm off to check my website to see if I haven't accidently called myself an architect of light or something daft like that! lol
Hey ...if the marketing works ;-)
Ever since I've delved into the printing world, the fact that (6:26) desktop printers have higher print resolutions puzzles me.
I'd assume that if I use a larger format printer that the higher resolutions would be "pointless" as you tend to not be close enough to the print the actually see that detail.
It's obviously more complex than I mention, but in general, desktop printer have smaller print heads with jets ...sometimes... closer together. Large format printers are made for production use, so have bigger heads, lots more nozzles and features designed for speed.
The nozzle density varies widely, as does the way those nozzles are used...
There is also the fact that some of the very highest settings on desktop printers are a fiction - they are implemented in software and don't represent 'real' resolutions at all. They slow printing down and are simply not implemented on larger format printers.
And, yes, there is the fact that large format printers are not designed for printing 6x4 snaps ;-)
It's a complex subject which can be difficult to tease apart from supplied info, which is always produced for marketing...
Thank you! One thing that is holding me back from finishing my website is trying to figure out the best way to reproduce copies of my original paintings. Either find a local printer or buy a printer. If buy a printer which one? You helped me so much!
Do you already have them photographed or scanned? Lighting is key if there is any texture of note.
Unfortunately, 'Best' means not a lot here - it all depends on your editing setup and experience with it. Colour management is vital especially to match some pigments, which can be tricky to capture and reproduce.
Art repro is quite a technical part of photography and printing.
@@KeithCooper Thank you for replying. Yes, scan them 600 dpi, then open in photoshop to adjust if necessary. The medium I work in is Alcohol Ink. I would add one of my paintings to my reply if I could. I want to use either a local printer or print my own. I have used the color toner copier at work, it is a large industrial type used for graphics and photos. It is just what is the best paper for the laser copier? I can print up to 11x14. If I sold a 16x20 I would then have to print elsewhere. Thanks again!
Ah, there I can't help - I've never tested colour laser printers at all, so my paper knowledge is not of much help. My main concern would be that toner based devices are notorious for being difficult to manage colour.
However... You have the tremendous advantage of being able to judge whether your own reproductions are OK for you - ask anyone in art repro what are the major difficulties for them and (if they are honest) it will include having to deal with artists ;-) :-)
Thanks Keith, I've learned so much about home printing that I'm pretty sure it's not for me 🤣
Thanks - despite what people might assume, it's getting people to think about printing, that is one of my key aims - and that includes not doing it ;-)
I think it is good to use terms like fine art print or giclée and then it means a good quality print, printed on quality paper with pigment inks. You guarantee that the picture will last long enough (if not put in the direct sunlight) so that the customers won't get disappointed later. But because most costumers don't understand the spesific terms it is good to explain them shortly, not too much details. Only certain people like photographers or artists might however be interested about the more spesific details.
But what I as an artist and printmaker (not as a consumer/client!) would like to know is the definition of pigment ink, because I think there cannot exist any colors without pigments, or can there? Also dyes must have pigments, or must they? But are there used different pigments? More synthetic? Less concentrated and more fillers or what? Cheaper and less longlasting combinations of substances? Is the medium different or no medium at all in pigment inks? What is pure magenta, cyan, yellow, black pigment made of? As far as I understand they are all some kind of combinations, nor pure pigments.
In fine art paints quality pigments are made of certain substances, like certain minerals some of which are more longlasting or have more opacity than others. You can buy pure ultramarine or other color as a powder. Some are more expensive than others. As far as I know plant pigments are in the averige not as longlasting as mineral pigments. Artist quality paints have more pigment and less fillers. It is also possible to make quality paints yourself just by combing the pigment powder with the medium (acrylic, gum arabic, linseed oil, egg...)
But I haven't so far studied the world of the pigments used in digital printers.
In general:
Pigment inks use very finely ground pigments - they may be encapsulated or supplied in some other form but are in essence, finely ground pigment. A coloured substance.
Dyes are substances dissolved in a solvent - they may or may not not have a colour until dissolved.
The colour of pigments is caused by interactions of light with the molecular structure of the pigment - in the same way a dissolved dye spreads through a solvent and the solution interacts with light.
As you say, pigments come from a wide variety of sources, but dyes and pigments (in printing) are all 'synthetic'. That just describes their sources - 'natural' minerals are simply too variable for the levels of quality control required.
Fine art and giclee mean whatever you want them to mean - pure marketing terms on their own. Best not to confuse the punters with any caveats or detail ;-) That is the essence of using them as marketing collateral.
Now, don't get me wrong, I would emphasise the quality of my printing and longevity of my product too, if it were relevant to the market segment I was aiming at. I want customers to think they are buying something of a premium product...
But it won't stop me calling out any instances of marketing hokum, when I see them though ;-) :-)
Any time I see the word 'Giclee' used, other than in the context of the historical development of ink-jet printers, I know for sure, the dead hand of marketing has been at work... ;-)
Very informative Keith. What equipment do you use to make paper profiles if not x-rite etc. ?
Thanks - I've an X-Rite iSis XL spectrophotometer and an X-Rite i1iO (with i1Pro 2) which I use with i1Profiler ( i1Publish) for most profiling. I've assorted other kit (ColorMunki/i1Studio/SpyderPrint) which I've got from my reviews over the years, but I only tend to use that for demo purposes.
Firstly, thank you very much Keith, for sharing your knowledge and experience. I find your videos about the ET-8550 interesting and engaging. My concern after viewing several, is the sense of "killing with faint praise" that I'm left with. Like you, I'm not particularly interested in the "home-office" features (e.g. scanning and copying etc.). I am however, interested in print quality, ink permanence, media format flexibility (max size etc.), and the running cost of inks. I print for camera club competition, and hopefully, some print-for-sale in the not too distant future. Print quality is really important...measured simply as... "how closely does it resemble the image on my screen (accepting of course the distinction between backlit calibrated monitor versus incident light on disparate papers)"? Your videos highlight the need for profiles, but here's the issue... even with your undoubted expertise, your profiling equipment, and the quality of your own starting images, your description of what you have printed seems muted. Yes, the go-to answer to my situation is "pay the money and go for the dedicated photo printers", but they are large-footprint, and prohibitively ink-expensive. I'd really like to know if the ET-8550 can/will produce prints that an experienced judge of print competition images will find better than just "acceptable"?
Ah, you should know I'm from Suffolk, where the exact emphasis on the word 'alright' covers moderate to excellent ;-)
However, it is capable of very good looking prints that even the pickiest judges would have difficulty in finding (justifiable) fault with. As with dye based printers some weakness comes in B&W performance.
For colour it is about paper choice and profiling.
I perhaps take issue with "how closely does it resemble the image on my screen" as a true measure of quality - but I've rambled on about that at length elsewhere ;-) (I've a video related to this later today).
However, for selling prints, sure you can make some nice ones - would I want to sell dye based prints? Not at the prices I'd want (see my collection of videos about selling prints), and therein lies the choice - what quality product fits your market?
My limited experiences alongside 'full time' judges have been 'variable' - I found them intensely annoying in their attention to pointless rules and detail, but hey, that's just me ;-) I will occasionally help judge competitions, but I warn in advance about my entirely arbitrary decision process ;-)
That said, this is a consumer/enthusiast level printer which can produce good looking prints as well.
Does it pass the test where duff prints reflect the lack of expertise of the user far more than limitations of the printer - yes (and for me too on occasions)
Many thanks Keith. Colour is certainly a science, but colour perception isn't, so when I talk about screen/print similarity, I just want reasonable confidence that when I spend a few hours on post-processing to get a certain tonality and texture, that the output will not be so disconnected that I'm just left frustrated facing into further hours of tweaking settings. The availability of profiles for this printer from paper manufacturers will be key. I use Permajet Oyster and Portrait White mostly, so a profile for these would be welcome. I'll check out your videos on commercial-quality printing.
You're right that profiles and a well set-up monitor are the key to confident printing.
Once that is established, you can think more of the print as a final work in of itself rather than a print of the screen. it lets you make use of the fact that the best looking image on screen is sometimes not the image that makes the best looking print. That needs basing on solid colour management and print experience though ;-)
In some ways, my aim is to think of the image on the screen as just an intermediary - like a negative.
Thanks Keith. Yes, as you have said in your videos, the intent of the output is key. You make a good point, if you are producing for projected media output, the monitor image is the end game, if the intent is commercial print, the monitor image is an intermediary.
Thanks
Thank you
Glad it was of interest
What about giclee on canvas? Does that make a difference vs giclee litho?
Giclee is a 100% marketing term ;-)
What actually is 'giclee litho'?
@@KeithCooper I see. Well here’s how it’s advertised:
Giclee on Canvas:
Breathing Color Lyve Canvas, 19mil 450GSM, Acid Free, No Optical Brighteners (OBA), Certified Archival
Epson archival UltraChrome HDR Pigment inks
$1695
Lithograph:
40 x 18” certified archival fine art lithograph print, image dimensions 36 x 14”
Smooth, Matte Finish, Acid-Free, Archival Fine Art Paper, 280gsm $650
Sorry I thought it was giclee on lithograph. In your opinion is it worth the price difference to go with giclee on canvas?
Two very different processes
'Giclee' is art marketing nonsense! Anywhere you see the term used, assume it's so as to charge you more.
It is inkjet - plain and simple ;-)
Are you talking about making/selling prints here?
Hi Keith, do you have any video from taking a photograph> to bringing it to editing software> to final print?
I would be interested of seeing one with this printer.
I am considering buying the printer, but hesitant.
Cheers, Mika
I don't really cover that with specific printers since they are not generally the printers I use for my work (which tend to be bigger ones).
The videos would also be almost identical, with the only differences being the specific printer settings (which is what I do cover). Essentially I'm saying that the choice of printer would have no effect on my photography or basic image editing - certainly not for small desktop printers like this. Making big prints, yes, but not A3+
I have much more about this sort of stuff in written articles on the Northlight site - remember the videos are generally there to support and complement written articles/reviews.
www.northlight-images.co.uk/photography-articles-and-reviews/printing-paper-reviews-articles/
The nearest is the look at making a B&W print (which has a video as well to supplement it)
www.northlight-images.co.uk/making-a-black-and-white-photograph/
@@KeithCooper Oh alrighty Keith! Will check your site and articles for more. Cheers!
Are we not just interested in providing the best possible image, whether the customer can see it or not? I feel it's a matter of pride (good pride) and respect. On the ink statement: I would have to say that there are better inks, and one should use K3 inks as standard; otherwise, there is a high likelihood of bronzing in the blacks. Secondly, or is it thirdly? The dpi is important to me, as the lower the dpi (all other variables are the same), the more banding distortion some images are likely to incur. The printer manufacturers don't just put high DPI out there for sales; it does have value to the customer. Lastly, many seem to view the world through only their eyes; they are ignorant and oblivious to the fact that many people have eyes that see the world far better than others. The old 20/20 eye test is so outdated that it's laughable. You (talking to anyone reading) may not see the difference, but many can, so don't assume that because it all looks okay to you, it does to everyone else.
Indeed all aspects of understanding the customer - which aspects are important matters, but far more to have actually thought about it which many don't.
How you decided on your marketing and how that is pitched to customers is yet another area of consideration - I'd happily use the term 'Giclee' - it impresses those who deserve to be impressed ;-)
As to 'the best possible' I've never been a subscriber to that particular school of perfectionism. I have different [high] standards for different uses - I may well exceed those standards sometimes, but I simply don't have a [personally] meaningful notion of 'best possible' - especially in any business context. I don't want perfectionists working for me other than on a fixed price contract and with penalty clauses for over-runs... ;-) [YMMV obviously ;-) ]
When people ask about print quality, just answer "Most printers, at the highest setting for sure, will be better than offset print presses, which do most of printed materials in the world... the photo printer is about mimicking film lab photo"
What and have them ask me what an offset press is? I think not ;-)
If you wanted to get prints done by someone to the best quality, what am I looking for?
I'd start with knowing what you mean by 'best quality' - it depends what you are printing, the size and why you are printing...
The problem is that 'Best' has no objective meaning
24 inch artworks I want them as posters, a good quality paper but aware I want to keep pricing so anyone can afford them. I'm completely new to this. Love creating, this bit not so much.
24" wide? Only a few printers support this, so at the cheaper end, the Canon TC-20M is a reasonable 'poster printer' For the quality I'd want for my work, a P7500 or PRO-2100 would suffice. All depends on the market you are in 'pricing anyone can afford' is commendable, but not a sound business principle, without a lot of care in pricing and costing. I have quite a few related videos in the 'business of photography' play list.
If you are getting prints made, then there are all sorts of options, but this depends on where you are and the volumes you are after. Just remember that anyone offering printing who uses the word Giclee on their web site is aiming at 'higher end' and charging accordingly. It's pure marketing and a means of charging more to people impressed by it ;-)
Would I be unfair if I described 'Giclee' as a 'sucker tax' - hmm... maybe ;-) :-)
Aren’t‘ pigment’ and ‘dye’ inks just a marketing term? Isn’t ink just ink? Wouldn’t it be better to say water based vs oil based or alcohol based or something of that nature..?
No, in this instance, they are quite different
A more precise usage would be to call them pigment or dye based aqueous inks.
Once you get beyond desktop inkjets, the range of inks expands considerably, but they are meant for commercial uses
Yes, the terms are used in marketing, but in this instance, there are real differences as well ;-)
@@KeithCooper Okay. I'm just learning about this. What is a pigment ink exactly? Is it similar to paint pigments: colours derived from pure compounds like cobalt, cadmium etc?
The pigments are particles of pigment encapsulated usually in a clear binder. The dyes are a much finer solution or suspension (depends on the solvent chemistry)
The WP article on this is actually a very well written introduction to the topic
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkjet_printing
Smiling as I watched. 😂
Thanks ;-)
th-cam.com/video/oQLfEtoND0Y/w-d-xo.html and then 8 inks isn't enough...next you have people claiming Giclee has to have 11 tanks....then 11 isn't enough and you needs 15....etc....etc...etc...Giclee seems to be mis-used frequently or used to try to fluff up a BETTER printer or printing process. (and better is 100% subjective, unless it has the specifications to prove its superior)
Yes, whenever I see the word giclee used, I'm suspicious... ;-)
Probably some good points in the video but took too long to get to them. Quit repeating and over emphasizing etc. Few topics like this are worth a 20+ minute video.
They are what they are I'm afraid - your 'too long' is someone else's 'in depth'
The feedback I get is very strongly towards the latter.
This is one of my older early videos though.