Since several have brought it up both here and on Facebook where I posted it, I wasn't actually double oiling the engine. I know I said I was in the video but it was getting rambly so I didn't include the following details: - I was pre-mixing with Amsoil Saber at 200:1 which is a number I read online somewhere that indicated it was just enough to stop the engine from seizing if the oil pump quit. I don't even know for sure if that's true or not but it made me feel better anyway. - Amsoil Saber also has a fuel stabilizer agent in it which helps keep my gas fresh for longer (I still replace any gas in my tanks that's older than 30 days) - I used Loctite everywhere the engine re-build manual said to use it - I don't lock-wire my air filter for 2 reasons: - it's one unit held on by 2 clamps. It's very unlikely that both will fail at the same time. - I remove the air filter every 10 hours to chemically de-carbon the pistons and rings with Sea Foam. Lock-wire would make this already tedious process even tediouser. (that's a word... right?)
Premix also helps lubricate the carb slides and parts since injection is after the carbs. I believe it's a good decision and one I made on my 582 as well.
if I'm not mistaken the hole that you plug goes into the crankcase if so there is a chance that the gasoline will degrade your Silicone on your cover placed you may want to consider removing the cover plate and using Permatex form a gasket instead gasoline will not degrade Permatex form a gasket
I was going to suggest making a gasket. They sell gasket material at the auto parts store. Silicone is a bad idea. Also if you add 2x the oil you will carbon up your rings. I hear it's really bad on 2 strokes to add excessive oil...
Wasn't actually double oiling, I was only pre-mixing the gas at 200:1, not enough to make a significant difference in the fuel mixture or enough to add any considerable carboning. The 200:1 was a number I read somewhere online once that said it was just enough to stop an engine from seizing if the oil pump quit. It was more for peace of mind than anything but since I was already in the habit of pre-mixing, I figured I might as well just do it to the proper ratio and pull the pump.
The oil injection does put nearly undiluted oil on the lower conrod bearings; the weak point of the engine. Personally I like the injection and 60:1 premix. I know it's too much oil but I'd rather decarbon than replace a whole shelled out engine. Just my opinion.
Hello. Thank you for your video. I Just had a serious breakdown on one of my pistons & cylinders . Oil Leak probably because i didn't do exactly what was to be done when mounting the pump again... soo.. I'm about to make the same "treatment" on my 582. I 've seen the aluminium plate to obturate the hole left by oil pump. But i didn't see clearly what you have done to obturate these little metal oil injection tubes at the gaz intake . A special plug or other device ?
I agree with your decision of removing 1 piece of a mission-critical system & I would consider having oil in the engine (or fuel) "mission-critical". You *DON'T* want to starve your engine especially when you're up there in the thousands of feet. And a nylon gear supplying oil for the mix is unnecessary when you're already mixing! /So yeah...Bob's your Uncle!
Not the one I had.... and I'm pretty sure mine was factory. My oil pump went to the lowest setting if the cable failed and the Certified Rotax Tech I spoke to said that when they fail, they fail off, not on. He's only seen that happen once mind you as they are typically very reliable pumps.
Hi Matt. Some other TH-camrs who've done this on Skidoos or whatever have advocated filling that orifice that you blanked off with oil before screwing on the plate, to ensure the water pump gets lubed....what do you (and Dave) think? I'd hate anything to run dry.... I believe that there's a cross-shaft in the engine which gets lubed by the rotary valve oil, but that's a different supply isn't it. I'm not sure that oil gets as far as the water pump (?) but then I guess it does on those engines that have never had an oil pump!
As I understand it (although I might be wrong) that area still gets exposed to the fuel/oil mix making sure everything stays nice and slippery in there. I'm pretty sure of this because I forgot to seal the area around the screws when I put the plate on and I had fuel/oil mix leaking out until took it back off and sealed it properly.
@@mmatt are you sure about that ? You may be running it dry I’m rebuilding a 467 with similar engine design and I’m positive there are oil seals to keep oil in there on the crank
@@phildelsol97 I'm sure enough that I'm not going to tear it apart and check... lol I've got over 200 hours on it in this configuration so far with no issues in this area. If that changes however, I'll definitely let you know. :-)
@@mmatt OK, thanks. I think it's a mistake to remove oil injection which is highly reliable, uses less oil, reduces plug foiling, and is more convenient. I also recommend using Amsoil Interceptor vs Saber
@@MrHanowski To each their own. :-) I can only speak from my experience; I currently have just over 550 hours logged using premix Saber mixed at 80:1. Minimal carbon fouling and no engine issues related to oil whatsoever.
@@mmatt I can't argue with those results, but I still think Amsoil Interceptor is a better choice. Most PPC guys, Rotax engine rebuilders, and Amsoil agree.
I was considering doing this to my 618 on my kitfox but ive heard that the oil injection pump is critical to lubricate the rotary valve. Im not sure how true this is but just wanted to mention it. Let us know how this works out :)
@@mmatt Did your mechanic design or build the engine? Did you even bother to ask Rotax themselves, or just take the word of some guy in striped coveralls? I own several pairs of those myself. I have an Eros with the 503. The previous owner removed the pump. I, am re-installing it!
I have confirmed with a Rotax certified technician that it is perfectly fine to run any of the Rotax 2 -stroke engines either pre-mix or oil injected. Both methods have pros and cons but neither are inherently damaging.
Yeah pretty sure the rotary valve needs that oil going directly into it. The old 340 and 440 R/V engines in the late 70s & early 80s were premix, but the rotary valve actually still had its own separate oil reservoir.
Rotax Rick says the plastic gear in 1 out of 5 motors he rebuilds is melted not sure what he is talking about he claims that the injection system is flawed and he won't warranty any engine he builds for someone if they use the injection system.
I've never seen one fail. The only issues I've ever heard about with them are human error. I just prefer to pre-mix because I don't like the extra parts bolted to the engine and because it's what I'm used to doing.
I mean you can do what you want but I can guarantee you they're going to be doing it complete engine rebuild by the time you can hit a thousand miles but again do what you
I would not do this. I think it is very important to monitor oil consumption with injection, but from all I have read about premix vs injection, more engines have trouble with premix, due to improper mix, settling, and loss of oil viscosity.
Not to mention the sooting up while awaiting your turn at the drag strip! The injection pump lowers the mix to 70-1 at idle, decreasing the carbon buildup as well as the blue smoke that you are choking on!
Since several have brought it up both here and on Facebook where I posted it, I wasn't actually double oiling the engine. I know I said I was in the video but it was getting rambly so I didn't include the following details:
- I was pre-mixing with Amsoil Saber at 200:1 which is a number I read online somewhere that indicated it was just enough to stop the engine from seizing if the oil pump quit. I don't even know for sure if that's true or not but it made me feel better anyway.
- Amsoil Saber also has a fuel stabilizer agent in it which helps keep my gas fresh for longer (I still replace any gas in my tanks that's older than 30 days)
- I used Loctite everywhere the engine re-build manual said to use it
- I don't lock-wire my air filter for 2 reasons:
- it's one unit held on by 2 clamps. It's very unlikely that both will fail at the same time.
- I remove the air filter every 10 hours to chemically de-carbon the pistons and rings with Sea Foam. Lock-wire would make this already tedious process even tediouser. (that's a word... right?)
Premix also helps lubricate the carb slides and parts since injection is after the carbs. I believe it's a good decision and one I made on my 582 as well.
Carburators dont need oil to work, all 4 cycle gasoline carburated engines have no oil whatsoever on the carbs
@@esau82 sure but it doesn't hurt, especially since the slide and needle on Bing carbs wear quite a bit due to vibration from the two stroke.
if I'm not mistaken the hole that you plug goes into the crankcase if so there is a chance that the gasoline will degrade your Silicone on your cover placed you may want to consider removing the cover plate and using Permatex form a gasket instead gasoline will not degrade Permatex form a gasket
Thanks for that info. I going to look into this. Definitely don't want that failing!
I was going to suggest making a gasket. They sell gasket material at the auto parts store. Silicone is a bad idea. Also if you add 2x the oil you will carbon up your rings. I hear it's really bad on 2 strokes to add excessive oil...
Wasn't actually double oiling, I was only pre-mixing the gas at 200:1, not enough to make a significant difference in the fuel mixture or enough to add any considerable carboning. The 200:1 was a number I read somewhere online once that said it was just enough to stop an engine from seizing if the oil pump quit. It was more for peace of mind than anything but since I was already in the habit of pre-mixing, I figured I might as well just do it to the proper ratio and pull the pump.
Also, that sealer I used is what the Rotax certified mechanic suggested I use for the case halves so I'm pretty sure it'll be ok for this use too.
50:1 on a 582. Castrol A747 is the best to use. My 582 was like new after 415 hours.
The oil injection does put nearly undiluted oil on the lower conrod bearings; the weak point of the engine. Personally I like the injection and 60:1 premix. I know it's too much oil but I'd rather decarbon than replace a whole shelled out engine. Just my opinion.
Hello. Thank you for your video.
I Just had a serious breakdown on one of my pistons & cylinders . Oil Leak probably because i didn't do exactly what was to be done when mounting the pump again... soo..
I'm about to make the same "treatment" on my 582.
I 've seen the aluminium plate to obturate the hole left by oil pump.
But i didn't see clearly what you have done to obturate these little metal oil injection tubes at the gaz intake . A special plug or other device ?
I just took a length of hose and connected them together with it. 4:55 shows what I'm talking about here.
@@mmatt ok thanks
I agree with your decision of removing 1 piece of a mission-critical system & I would consider having oil in the engine (or fuel) "mission-critical". You *DON'T* want to starve your engine especially when you're up there in the thousands of feet. And a nylon gear supplying oil for the mix is unnecessary when you're already mixing!
/So yeah...Bob's your Uncle!
Thats why you have to follow preventive maintenance and TBO schedules
As a fail safe rotax does if something happens to the oil pump its goes to the highest setting possible on the injection
Not the one I had.... and I'm pretty sure mine was factory. My oil pump went to the lowest setting if the cable failed and the Certified Rotax Tech I spoke to said that when they fail, they fail off, not on. He's only seen that happen once mind you as they are typically very reliable pumps.
Hey Matt, would you sell me the parts you’ve removed? My 582 runs on pre-mix but I want to fit an injector 😎
Hi Matt. Some other TH-camrs who've done this on Skidoos or whatever have advocated filling that orifice that you blanked off with oil before screwing on the plate, to ensure the water pump gets lubed....what do you (and Dave) think? I'd hate anything to run dry.... I believe that there's a cross-shaft in the engine which gets lubed by the rotary valve oil, but that's a different supply isn't it. I'm not sure that oil gets as far as the water pump (?) but then I guess it does on those engines that have never had an oil pump!
As I understand it (although I might be wrong) that area still gets exposed to the fuel/oil mix making sure everything stays nice and slippery in there. I'm pretty sure of this because I forgot to seal the area around the screws when I put the plate on and I had fuel/oil mix leaking out until took it back off and sealed it properly.
@@mmatt Thanks Matt - You're a star. Always enjoy your videos!
@@mmatt are you sure about that ? You may be running it dry I’m rebuilding a 467 with similar engine design and I’m positive there are oil seals to keep oil in there on the crank
@@phildelsol97 I'm sure enough that I'm not going to tear it apart and check... lol
I've got over 200 hours on it in this configuration so far with no issues in this area. If that changes however, I'll definitely let you know. :-)
Lighting! Great info but can't see...
Did you figure out how to take apart that 3-way cable splitter?
No, it turns out that it's a sealed unit so we just routed it up and out of the way.
@@mmatt OK, thanks. I think it's a mistake to remove oil injection which is highly reliable, uses less oil, reduces plug foiling, and is more convenient. I also recommend using Amsoil Interceptor vs Saber
@@MrHanowski To each their own. :-)
I can only speak from my experience; I currently have just over 550 hours logged using premix Saber mixed at 80:1. Minimal carbon fouling and no engine issues related to oil whatsoever.
@@mmatt I can't argue with those results, but I still think Amsoil Interceptor is a better choice. Most PPC guys, Rotax engine rebuilders, and Amsoil agree.
This is great, finally somebody thinking outside the box and not listening to anyone, im gonna di the exact same to my 582
Don't forget to use Lock-Tite and safety wire! I notice you didn't use either??
I Loctite everything as per the engine re-build manual and safety wire everything that I feel needs it.
I was considering doing this to my 618 on my kitfox but ive heard that the oil injection pump is critical to lubricate the rotary valve. Im not sure how true this is but just wanted to mention it. Let us know how this works out :)
Not according to my mechanic.
@@mmatt Did your mechanic design or build the engine? Did you even bother to ask Rotax themselves, or just take the word of some guy in striped coveralls? I own several pairs of those myself. I have an Eros with the 503. The previous owner removed the pump. I, am re-installing it!
I have confirmed with a Rotax certified technician that it is perfectly fine to run any of the Rotax 2 -stroke engines either pre-mix or oil injected. Both methods have pros and cons but neither are inherently damaging.
Yeah pretty sure the rotary valve needs that oil going directly into it. The old 340 and 440 R/V engines in the late 70s & early 80s were premix, but the rotary valve actually still had its own separate oil reservoir.
Does the rotary valve not have its own re-circulating oil supply (the little cuboid bottle sitting just above the electronic ignition units)?
Can I have your old pump I need one really bad?
Find one on ebay from a Seadoo 93-96 SP, XP, with 587, 657, 717. They are all the same.
Rotax Rick says the plastic gear in 1 out of 5 motors he rebuilds is melted not sure what he is talking about he claims that the injection system is flawed and he won't warranty any engine he builds for someone if they use the injection system.
I've never seen one fail. The only issues I've ever heard about with them are human error. I just prefer to pre-mix because I don't like the extra parts bolted to the engine and because it's what I'm used to doing.
I mean you can do what you want but I can guarantee you they're going to be doing it complete engine rebuild by the time you can hit a thousand miles but again do what you
Over 200 hours so far (at 60 mph making that around 12,000 miles) with no oil related issues.
Are you on Facebook?
Yup.
mmatt send me a friend request Eddy Sanders . I have something that you or one of your flying friends maybe interested in.
I would not do this. I think it is very important to monitor oil consumption with injection, but from all I have read about premix vs injection, more engines have trouble with premix, due to improper mix, settling, and loss of oil viscosity.
Not to mention the sooting up while awaiting your turn at the drag strip! The injection pump lowers the mix to 70-1 at idle, decreasing the carbon buildup as well as the blue smoke that you are choking on!