Blessings to Claire. Blessings to you. Thank you for such a fine program. Understanding the real people that were, and are, the Tudors, helps me to understand my ancestors the Stewarts.
That was a great conversation. What struck me was how Henry was perfectly willing, almost like collateral damage, to have his closest advisers and friends and colleagues, be prosecuted and persecuted for adultery with his wife, when he knows perfectly well this is all set up, and he was probably very involved in setting up the fraudulent charges. You mentioned that he was particularly close to one of these guys, but he was perfectly willing to sacrifice him in order to get to his wife? I mean it was four or five guys- did he really need that many? seems like overkill. So he seems ruthlessly cold in executing these men, loyal servants, who obviously were valued, and he had a history with, yet he was perfectly willing to put them to their deaths. How did that impact the rest of his court? Did the rest of his closest friends and advisers retreat in fear and mistrust? I mean he killed pretty much all of them, his closest friends, starting with Sir Thomas More. What do you make of that? Except that he’s a psychopath. I also think that Catherine Howard’s infidelity or flirtations, (which amounted to infidelity as far as the king was concerned), and lady Rochford’s assistance, and all of that intrigue, just underscores a corrupt and immoral kingship. No one was safe. No one could be looked to for a model of morality, like the deceased Catherine of Aragon. I think she served as a moral compass for him. But now, intrigue, infidelities, and betrayals were the rule of the day. if you cooperated with the king, like Anna of Cleves, you were richly rewarded, and given a false relationship as his “sister.“ If you failed him, over the years, it was increasingly easy for him to exterminate you. once you cross that line it is very easy.
In terms of the differences between Anne and Kathryn’s downfalls, there’s also the fact that Anne endured a trial to try to justify her downfall on the flimsiest of ‘evidence’, whereas with Kathryn the guilt was so obvious that a trail wasn’t felt necessary. Kathryn had an accomplice in Jane Rochford but no one was ever accused as an accomplice in Anne’s alleged repeated adulteries with multiple men, which makes any likelihood of her actually being guilty even more implausible. We’re expected to believe Anne never had any help in finding times to be alone with men on multiple occasions? How did she even get in and out of her clothes without assistance? Obviously, Henry didn’t want to believe in Kathryn’s guilt, at least at first. His reaction to Anne’s downfall is more troubling. He clearly didn’t feel angry so it’s unlikely he genuinely thought she was guilty. So how does he live with himself knowing he killed an innocent woman, one he apparently loved dearly for many years? While I believe Cromwell was mainly responsible for Anne’s death, I do question why Henry agreed to it all. Couldn’t he have just forced her to step down, either go to a nunnery or live in exile? Wouldn’t that have been the more reasonable way to deal with her? Yes, I understand he didn’t want another living ex-wife on his hands claiming she was his true queen, but Anne didn’t have the political connections Katherine had, and no one was likely to take up her cause when all she had was a young daughter to show for her marriage.
Kathryn Howard's story is so sad. She was expected to go along with her family. Had to go to the dowager duchesses house, it sounds like some of them were sexually immoral. They probably influenced her. She was so young, men probably preyed on her. Her family influenced her to Marry the king. He was in his fifties she was still a teenager. Certain things seem so wrong to me.
I really wanna go on the yeoman warden’s tour because I NEED to get into the chapel, but I hate how they talk about certain people. You describing how they speak of Katheryn Howard, if I heard them say that, my blood would so boil.
sending your kid to live with a friend or family member sounds not unlike sending your kid to live with a relative who lives in a better school district, lol
I can't remember where I read it but someone theorized that what could she do about it? Would the king have listened, or would she get in trouble for bringing it up? And as a result she had to try and keep it secret. At the same time, I wonder why Dereham risked Henrys wrath by coming to court.
I personally think she’d already lost so much at this point in her life. Obviously her life was still valuable to her, and she may not have considered the full extent of her actions, but she’d seen her husband and her sister in law executed on false charges, so whether she was complicit in aiding their affair or not, she might have paid that price anyway. The way I see it, she may as well have assisted her mistress with an extra marital affair since Henry took her husbands head.
Hi. Claire. Thank you, it was very interesting and enlightening. I will be getting Gareth's book for my birthday soon. I'm wondering, if Katheryn had confessed her 'foolishness' prior to her marriage, do you believe that Henry would suppressed this knowledge and married her anyway?
Jane witnessed Anne being a lady in waiting when she ousted Catherine to be Queen. What about Jane now thinking it was her turn and Katherine had to go 😂
Im in my 60s and late to the stories of Edward's wives. This was so interesting. Its fashionable to rewrite history now a days. And its hard to know what to believe.
I'm so happy to see someone pushing back on this "Catherine was a victim" narrative. It's such a feminist man hating lie. I don't know if Mannox was a teenager. But people love to ignore that when they started "exploring" she was of legal age.... If she was born in 1523.
I wouldnt ever say that CH was a bad queen. I would say she was a reckless woman with low morals who should have never been queen. Even if she was not brought up to be a queen, she was definitely brought up to not have sexual relations with anyone but her husband.
I disagree. Catherine was a 50/50 queen. She was frivolous with spending but she represented herself well on progress. She wasn't a bad person, just an immature girl who loved male attention.
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Blessings to Claire.
Blessings to you.
Thank you for such a fine program.
Understanding the real people that were, and are, the Tudors, helps me to understand my ancestors the Stewarts.
Another fascinating interview! Thanks so much!!
Great interview 😊Thank you Claire for your fantastic insights 👑Big fan Claire, can’t wait for your book on CH❤
This is much better than the salacious postmodern stuff i lately find on this subject. Thank you!
I am curious as to why her grandmother didn't dismiss Mannox (sp?) when she caught them kissing by the chapel...
That was a great conversation. What struck me was how Henry was perfectly willing, almost like collateral damage, to have his closest advisers and friends and colleagues, be prosecuted and persecuted for adultery with his wife, when he knows perfectly well this is all set up, and he was probably very involved in setting up the fraudulent charges. You mentioned that he was particularly close to one of these guys, but he was perfectly willing to sacrifice him in order to get to his wife? I mean it was four or five guys- did he really need that many? seems like overkill. So he seems ruthlessly cold in executing these men, loyal servants, who obviously were valued, and he had a history with, yet he was perfectly willing to put them to their deaths. How did that impact the rest of his court? Did the rest of his closest friends and advisers retreat in fear and mistrust? I mean he killed pretty much all of them, his closest friends, starting with Sir Thomas More. What do you make of that? Except that he’s a psychopath. I also think that Catherine Howard’s infidelity or flirtations, (which amounted to infidelity as far as the king was concerned), and lady Rochford’s assistance, and all of that intrigue, just underscores a corrupt and immoral kingship. No one was safe. No one could be looked to for a model of morality, like the deceased Catherine of Aragon. I think she served as a moral compass for him. But now, intrigue, infidelities, and betrayals were the rule of the day. if you cooperated with the king, like Anna of Cleves, you were richly rewarded, and given a false relationship as his “sister.“ If you failed him, over the years, it was increasingly easy for him to exterminate you. once you cross that line it is very easy.
So glad Queen Catherine is getting her due. I love listening to Claire and all of your podcasts!
Omg the cat meowing melted my heart ♡♡♡
In terms of the differences between Anne and Kathryn’s downfalls, there’s also the fact that Anne endured a trial to try to justify her downfall on the flimsiest of ‘evidence’, whereas with Kathryn the guilt was so obvious that a trail wasn’t felt necessary. Kathryn had an accomplice in Jane Rochford but no one was ever accused as an accomplice in Anne’s alleged repeated adulteries with multiple men, which makes any likelihood of her actually being guilty even more implausible. We’re expected to believe Anne never had any help in finding times to be alone with men on multiple occasions? How did she even get in and out of her clothes without assistance? Obviously, Henry didn’t want to believe in Kathryn’s guilt, at least at first. His reaction to Anne’s downfall is more troubling. He clearly didn’t feel angry so it’s unlikely he genuinely thought she was guilty. So how does he live with himself knowing he killed an innocent woman, one he apparently loved dearly for many years? While I believe Cromwell was mainly responsible for Anne’s death, I do question why Henry agreed to it all. Couldn’t he have just forced her to step down, either go to a nunnery or live in exile? Wouldn’t that have been the more reasonable way to deal with her? Yes, I understand he didn’t want another living ex-wife on his hands claiming she was his true queen, but Anne didn’t have the political connections Katherine had, and no one was likely to take up her cause when all she had was a young daughter to show for her marriage.
Kathryn Howard's story is so sad. She was expected to go along with her family. Had to go to the dowager duchesses house, it sounds like some of them were sexually immoral. They probably influenced her. She was so young, men probably preyed on her. Her family influenced her to Marry the king. He was in his fifties she was still a teenager. Certain things seem so wrong to me.
I really wanna go on the yeoman warden’s tour because I NEED to get into the chapel, but I hate how they talk about certain people. You describing how they speak of Katheryn Howard, if I heard them say that, my blood would so boil.
Great work on tuders
sending your kid to live with a friend or family member sounds not unlike sending your kid to live with a relative who lives in a better school district, lol
Why would Jane Rochford have been an accomplice in Katherine's adultery? From first-hand knowledge, she knew about Henry's temperament.
I can't remember where I read it but someone theorized that what could she do about it? Would the king have listened, or would she get in trouble for bringing it up? And as a result she had to try and keep it secret.
At the same time, I wonder why Dereham risked Henrys wrath by coming to court.
It makes no sense to me either.
I personally think she’d already lost so much at this point in her life. Obviously her life was still valuable to her, and she may not have considered the full extent of her actions, but she’d seen her husband and her sister in law executed on false charges, so whether she was complicit in aiding their affair or not, she might have paid that price anyway. The way I see it, she may as well have assisted her mistress with an extra marital affair since Henry took her husbands head.
Almost like payback, at least in her unconscious mind
Love Claire!
Hi. Claire.
Thank you, it was very interesting and enlightening.
I will be getting Gareth's book for my birthday soon.
I'm wondering, if Katheryn had confessed her 'foolishness' prior to her marriage, do you believe that Henry would suppressed this knowledge and married her anyway?
I would like to see a video about who the executioners were or might have been. Were they part of the kings guards, military, or just ordinary blokes?
Jane witnessed Anne being a lady in waiting when she ousted Catherine to be Queen. What about Jane now thinking it was her turn and Katherine had to go 😂
wow, how cruel u r
Was this posted with Claire's permission?
Im in my 60s and late to the stories of Edward's wives. This was so interesting. Its fashionable to rewrite history now a days. And its hard to know what to believe.
💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖
If Catherine Howard was a tart what was any other men and Henry then for going with her ?.
The Dowager’s house wasn’t a boarding school, it was a bawding house.
That is completely untrue
This is such an ugly take.
I'm so happy to see someone pushing back on this "Catherine was a victim" narrative. It's such a feminist man hating lie. I don't know if Mannox was a teenager. But people love to ignore that when they started "exploring" she was of legal age....
If she was born in 1523.
I wouldnt ever say that CH was a bad queen. I would say she was a reckless woman with low morals who should have never been queen. Even if she was not brought up to be a queen, she was definitely brought up to not have sexual relations with anyone but her husband.
I would say you have no idea what you’re talking about
I disagree. Catherine was a 50/50 queen. She was frivolous with spending but she represented herself well on progress. She wasn't a bad person, just an immature girl who loved male attention.