The idea of Daredevil turning evil had potential but The execution was terrible. Thankfully the Waid run made up for that fiasco. Also Cyclops is a great character,but the writers keep making look bad for no good reason.
Tayo Jones the problem with Cyclops is that he has become so defined by his relationships that writers have forgotten how to make him engaging in his own right. I mean, when was the last time that he was really single and not on a team with his wife or girlfriend/ex; where he’s been able to loosen up and enjoy himself? So writers resort to making him “Dark” because they think that equals “ interesting “. Which it may, temporarily. But it’s not sustainable long term. Hence why Scott was a complete mess after Bendis’ run and Death of X.
Unpopular opinion: but I thought Andy Diggle's Shadowland set-up and first issue of the event itself were quite good and were very compelling. It's everything after issue 2 where it goes completely off the rails. Don't get me wrong, the event as a whole was abysmal. But, the build up and opening salvo were some great ideas with good writing and art. I have fond memories of the members of an online forum I was on at the time being hyped for Shadowland. And some of the tie-in comics from that event were quite good. Spider-man and Shang Chi was a fun issue that had ramifications for The early part of Slott's Spider-Man run. Ghost Rider's tie in with Clayton Crain's art, where he just goes off and kills the bosses of the Hand who orchestrated this entire fiasco was hilariously done. Elektra also got a good one shot book out of it. Meanwhile Andy Diggle's work on the Dardevil main title was still good stuff. He focused instead on all of Daredevil's supporting cast and how they are dealing with Matt going off the edge and building a giant fuck off ninja castle in the middle of New York. Foggy's take on the whole thing was good to read. Unfortunately, as previously stated, that quality never transitioned to the main Shadowland event book, which after issue 2 just became a generic cliche "event comic" at best, and absolutely stupid at it's dirt worst. From the way it was written, I don't think Diggle wanted Shadowland to become a massive event comic, and wanted it to stay as a Daredevil only story, in the main Daredevil book. But was kinda strongarmed into it by Marvel editors wanting to get in on a big event. Also while I'm at it, Black Panther: Man Without Fear was a dumb idea that should not have worked, but was damn fun and a very underappreciated and underrated book while it was going on.
While I love that trope, hell, the Superior Spider-Man arc is what got me into comics in the first place, I'm a much bigger fan of the opposite. Like Venom, who became my favorite fictional character through his long redemption arc. Jason Todd is much the same way. It's just a shame Marvel wasted the amazing opportunity to turn Dr Doom into an Antihero. His character has been headed that direction since Triumph and Torment and almost completed it in Secret Wars 2015.
Doom always teters on that line between antihero and supervillain. The world would be better off under Doom's rule, even the Panther God admits it, so any attempts to take over the world are all strange acts of altruism in his eyes.
Superior Spiderman was a godlike run, both in his debut, in his own comic series, & playing a pivotal role in Spidergeddon. Dang shame he had stop being a Spider & written off into the ether until another writer comes along & uses Octavious; as his Spidersuit puts the any other red & black S-suit to shame
Honestly I am not against heroes turning evil as long as the story actually makes a tons of sense but personally I think the problem with both the big two companies is that well it’s shock value that really pisses me off and has no consequences but that’s just my opinion.
Thanking for saying John Romita Jr is a good artist. I know some people don’t like him but I think he’s a great storyteller and artist. Great video as always.
I agree. Romita Jr is a great artist and yet some people keep saying his art is bad. His art is not bad and it drives me crazy when people claim it us.
@@orenmandelbaum3795 As for the Why, IDW's Megatron was a much more complex character, and, to cut a very long story short, during the Crossover event Dark Cybertron, things got... screwy. Shockwave was reaching the end of a several-million year scheme to collapse time itself around Cybertron, sacrificing the universe to fuel it forever- Shockwave is pretty much the Big Bad of the entire IDW universe, _everything_ is his fault. The Autobots, Decepticons, and Neutrals teamed up to stop him, Megatron among them. Megs is having a bit of a crisis at this point. He spends a large portion of the story lacking in the leg department, after Galvatron, who _isn't_ Megatron in this universe, ripped him in half while using the Space Bridge network inside Megs' body to escape from the Dead Universe, so he has to be carried around by Bumblebee. He also has to deal with the fact that Starscream has managed to become the leader of Cybertron by winning the hearts and minds of a neutral population tired by the Autobots and Decepticons' endless war. After all this, and the realisation that his original goals had been forgotten in the rampant bloodlust he'd succumbed to since he started the revolution against the corrupt Senate and Primes. This culminated in a scene where Bumblebee convinced Megatron to not solve all his problems with a cannon for the first time. And then Shockwave blasted Bumblebee through the back and killed him. In the subsequent fight, Megatron donned Bumblebee's Autobot badge, and aiding Prime in stopping Shockwave.
Now you should explore the other side of the coin and cover the thunderbolts: villains who, over time, grow into the role of being heroes, and discover that they love it!
The fact that a video like this with so much research, slick editing, amazing writing and voice over only gets this much views REALLY REALLY annoys me, keep up the good work Matt, amazing as always and hope the very best for you my friend.
Check out the extended essay version of this video on CBH, with even more villainous turns - www.comicbookherald.com/when-superheroes-go-bad-22-times-in-chronological-order/
Kid Miracleman is one of my favorite villains and I sometimes forget he was never intended to become a villain. He just worked so well in the transition tbh.
For a while, Adam Warlock’s whole thing was that he fought against the Magus, his evil future self he was fated to become. After he killed Thanos ( he got better), he took his own life, preventing the dark future from happening ( he got better).
God I just wish comics let go of the attempts at shock value, reboots/relaunches, events with little substance and convoluted storytelling. Mostly I wish they would let go of the Stan Lee storytelling idea that we should manufacture character development. We should just let characters grow and tell inventive forward moving stories.
Hello there Matt Draper, I’ve been a long time fan and viewer of your videos. However, I have noticed out of all the most memorable heroes that you’ve spotlighted, you have never once done a video on Wonder Woman. If you need an idea for a good Wonder Woman story to highlight, I suggest The Legend of Wonder Woman Origins written and gorgeously illustrated by Renae De Liz.
19:11 Yeah, nah, "readers" weren't enraged over Nazi Steve, "readers" knew exactly what they were looking at from the very start and at best were tired of seeing that old trope again. The only ones enraged were people who only read tweets.
@@basscot17 Honestly, I grew tired of Marvel by then, but I still hung out at the discussion boards, which is why I know anything at all about it. From what I can gather, the build-up was better than the actual story - which is par for the course when it comes to comic book events, to be honest.
@Rohan Clancy The writer that immediately followed Secret Empire was Waid for a very short run, most of which dealt with time travel shenanigans so most of the arc felt superfluous as you knew nothing that happened would have any bearing on current stuff and would just be forgotten. Kinda like Marvel was looking for filler until they brought someone new in, which ended up being Coates who I think is the story you're referring to. It definitely feels filled with a lot of race and gender issues. Feels exhausting to read personally. I usually like to read fiction to escape reality and be engrossed in problems I never have to face, not have authors tell me their political positions through fictional characters.
I dropped Marvel titles for a good while when Nazi Cap happened, I knew the old trope but the way Marvel (and Nick Spencer’s social media) was marketing it was as if this was the REAL secret history of Captain America, and they put real effort into this idea, with flashbacks and Secret Empire (which helped the overwhelming crossover fatigue), and this seemed like a really cheap way to attract people through controversial lies... Of course, it all ended up being bullshit like expected, but you don’t do “Cap was always a Nazi”... You just don’t. So, yeah, some readers were enraged.
Looking back, the “Hail Hydra” moment and everything that came with it (the downplaying of nazism rhetoric after the torch had been passed down to a black superhero) sure plays a very specific note in our current political climate...
Even if he is right and the Avengers help mutantkind what then? Make Spider-Man a billionaire? The books would be over then. You take away what made them special.
I don't blame him. It made no sense. Why would Steve Rogers who pre super soldier serum was weak and frail but still wanted to fight the Nazis because of what they were doing to the point he volunteered for the Super Soldier Serum to get the strength and power needed to stop them during World War II join Hydra, a Nazi group? It'd be like Superman joining an anti alien group.
Secret Empire was so ambitious, and while I think it's pacing and the character decisions weren't always fleshed out enough, I have to love it to a certain degree for what it tried to do. Nick Spencer really took risks on the run and the Steve Rogers and Sam Wilson cap runs were a lot of fun and great books up until it all sort of fell apart. If only the art in the Steve Rogers hadn't become completely abysmal in the end. So much of the backlash on that nook was a total waste because the majority of it came from people who don't even read comics. I just wish the book hadn't become a mess and it might have been one of the best events Marvel had ever done.
I beg to differ,sir. The Dark Phoenix Saga wasn't any kind of big event. It wasn't even a standard crossover. I don't even think that The Dark Phoenix Saga was a title used in the issues contained therein. I think that those issues were only retroactively given that title. It was just a span of several issues of Uncanny X-Men.
That is a nice list, but my favoiret Superheroes Going Bad Stories are The Judis Contract, Dark Phoenix Saga, Watchmen, Winter Soulder and Infinet Crissis.
I know Matt’s in the dumps about comics/superheroes right now, but Jesus Christ, I need to make a full video on the DD Shadowland story. The run needs a proper video from a comic book channel, and there is quite literally no one more fitting to suffer through it😂
I apologize for not watching this video on premiere since I had to do some schoolwork. With that out of the way, I feel like the heroes turning bad trope has become overdone. While that kind of storyline can work, it takes a good execution to do so. There are exceptions such as Dark Phoenix saga, Winter Soldier and Under the Red Hood (both comic and movie) that are excellent stories. But then you have Shadowland, Emerald Twilight and Secret Empire that are well intentioned but just kind of burn real fast. But this is another great video to your library. Can’t wait for the next one as always.
Do you think you'll ever make a video just on Secret Empire? There's many things during that arc that make you go "wtf" and it would be interesting to see the behind-the-scenes of what led to some of those questionable choices.
Literally, not 4 hours ago my coworker was in my office talking to me about how he wanted to see an Onslaught movie and me just quietly nodding because I couldn't remember what Onslaught was all about. Thanks for the refresh!
Captain Hydra has to be the worst case. If any other character became a hydra agent, it It would not have been so disastrous. Because Cap was made by jew artists in WW2 as a statement against nazis... and then Marvel makes him a nazi And one of the things that most infuriated the fans was that Marvel excuse was "hydra and nazis aren't the same thing, they may have worked together for decades and have the same goal, but they aren't the same"
I don't even think they're comic nerds necessarily, I don't know what comic nerd DOESN'T know all "superhero turned bad" stories aren't eventually retconned.
I love that you call them edgelord batmen that's so perfect!! accurate too god that was a weird event now heavy metal seems like it's going full campy, not just jump the shark but powerbomb it then dab over it
I never read Secret Empire, but I didn't mind the idea of Cap temporarily being Hydra. You need new ways of challenging your heroes, and what a harder way then that hero becoming what they hate?
I think the trope is pretty played out at this point, but Dark Phoenix, Emerald Twilight, Winter Soldier, and technically, Superior Spider-Man shows the high points of that trope.
I would read the heck out of a series exploring what happens when Martian Manhunter goes bad... Unless that's already happened and I missed it somehow.
I never understood the cyclops sucks line of thinking lol. I just don't understand why people the character is a bad character. Is he supposed to be cliche?
"Who cares about Armageddon 2001?" I'm gonna raise my hand and say I enjoy the crossover. There's some excellent stories in the annuals with Flash, Detective Comics, Justice League of America and the Superman annual being standouts. I think the only misstep was the ending. If they rolled into it and kept it as Captain Atom, this story would probably be more acclaimed. It's got some good stuff in there, but it's always marred by that ending. Also...I'm a Cyclops fan. No offense taken at anything in the video, though. This was very well done!
10:05 Judd Winick even preferred writing the film to the comic. Probably because the stupid "Superboy Prime punches reality and that resurrects Jason" wasn't his idea.
Y'know sometimes you just gotta let the leak go. They got you. Years later no one would give a crap about a month early reveal, they would like a good well thought out and structured story with the big reveal as hinted and scripted.
You did a great job on the video. It was a fun concept. And yea John Romita Jr. is a good artist! Also why is the Sentry bad? I thought the idea of a character with superman-esq powers and being mentally unstable, would make for some good stories. Is he just not written well?
I consider the Clark Kent from Kurt Busiek's Superman Secret Identity the true continuation of Pre-Crisis Superboy Prime, in my headcanon in his absence and later murderous insanity, the Presence created a new universe similar to Earth Prime with its own Superboy who goes on to grow up as Superman.
I dunno if it counts, but Id also add Cable from Deadpool and Cable comics where he tried to make Providence at the behest of SHIELD and tried to blow up the sun to try to unite the world nations to kill him to show how the world could be if they worked together. Maybe he didn't turn bad, but he takes on the X-men, Silver Surfer etc. I also like Ultimate Reed Richard aka the Maker though I guess he is just a villian now.
Squirrel Girl should turn evil. Thus, she'd come to embody crime/villainy itself. Impossible to overcome, ineffably difficult to pin down, inexplicably overwhelming - and what happens when good men do nothing.
Even if he is right and the Avengers did help the mutants what then? Make Spider-Man a billionaire? He was an Avenger at the time. The books would just be over then.
:O Mattt! i can´t believe it, i´m always agree at every thing you said, but.... come on man, CYCLOPS y a great character!!!! he is the quintesencial X-men!
![ILLSLICK - WINTER IS COMING [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dwTMeM1zIhQ/mqdefault.jpg)
The moments that have had us in shock, rage, and impressed. No wonder superheroes and wrestling are constantly compared
Turning heel is not contained to either industry. Wonder who did it first.
@@thewyldness probably wrestling since both industries inspired one another
It's Ancient!
It's from mythology being used to teach lessons about not becoming what you hate.
@@benparrish672 fair enough.
Super eyepatch wolf liked this
The idea of Daredevil turning evil had potential but The execution was terrible. Thankfully the Waid run made up for that fiasco. Also Cyclops is a great character,but the writers keep making look bad for no good reason.
Tayo Jones the problem with Cyclops is that he has become so defined by his relationships that writers have forgotten how to make him engaging in his own right. I mean, when was the last time that he was really single and not on a team with his wife or girlfriend/ex; where he’s been able to loosen up and enjoy himself?
So writers resort to making him “Dark” because they think that equals “ interesting “. Which it may, temporarily. But it’s not sustainable long term. Hence why Scott was a complete mess after Bendis’ run and Death of X.
Unpopular opinion: but I thought Andy Diggle's Shadowland set-up and first issue of the event itself were quite good and were very compelling. It's everything after issue 2 where it goes completely off the rails. Don't get me wrong, the event as a whole was abysmal. But, the build up and opening salvo were some great ideas with good writing and art. I have fond memories of the members of an online forum I was on at the time being hyped for Shadowland. And some of the tie-in comics from that event were quite good. Spider-man and Shang Chi was a fun issue that had ramifications for The early part of Slott's Spider-Man run. Ghost Rider's tie in with Clayton Crain's art, where he just goes off and kills the bosses of the Hand who orchestrated this entire fiasco was hilariously done. Elektra also got a good one shot book out of it. Meanwhile Andy Diggle's work on the Dardevil main title was still good stuff. He focused instead on all of Daredevil's supporting cast and how they are dealing with Matt going off the edge and building a giant fuck off ninja castle in the middle of New York. Foggy's take on the whole thing was good to read. Unfortunately, as previously stated, that quality never transitioned to the main Shadowland event book, which after issue 2 just became a generic cliche "event comic" at best, and absolutely stupid at it's dirt worst. From the way it was written, I don't think Diggle wanted Shadowland to become a massive event comic, and wanted it to stay as a Daredevil only story, in the main Daredevil book. But was kinda strongarmed into it by Marvel editors wanting to get in on a big event. Also while I'm at it, Black Panther: Man Without Fear was a dumb idea that should not have worked, but was damn fun and a very underappreciated and underrated book while it was going on.
@@Dhampir101980 so is Mike and Zoey
While I love that trope, hell, the Superior Spider-Man arc is what got me into comics in the first place, I'm a much bigger fan of the opposite. Like Venom, who became my favorite fictional character through his long redemption arc. Jason Todd is much the same way. It's just a shame Marvel wasted the amazing opportunity to turn Dr Doom into an Antihero. His character has been headed that direction since Triumph and Torment and almost completed it in Secret Wars 2015.
Doom always teters on that line between antihero and supervillain. The world would be better off under Doom's rule, even the Panther God admits it, so any attempts to take over the world are all strange acts of altruism in his eyes.
Same Superior Spider-Man is awesome probably the best of Dan Slotts Spider-Man run
@@isinganddootherthings4616 not that that's saying much! 😂
@@isinganddootherthings4616 I still say it's crap.
Superior Spiderman was a godlike run, both in his debut, in his own comic series, & playing a pivotal role in Spidergeddon. Dang shame he had stop being a Spider & written off into the ether until another writer comes along & uses Octavious; as his Spidersuit puts the any other red & black S-suit to shame
*Who will be ne-?*
Tony. Its always TONY.
Evil Tony: I am... Inevitable.
Teen Tony: And I... Am... Iron Man. *snap*
I've heard there's an evil AI Tony Stark who's leading an AI rebellion after the real Tony Stark was put into a coma at the end of Civil War 2.
@@louisseymour9247 yep. And another one in Venom the end. ITS ALWAYS TONY.
Honestly I am not against heroes turning evil as long as the story actually makes a tons of sense but personally I think the problem with both the big two companies is that well it’s shock value that really pisses me off and has no consequences but that’s just my opinion.
“...can of poop...” might just be the best description ever uttered in a comic video essay
In any video essay ever. Even mauler
You forgot Captain Marvel in Civil war 2.
If Matt ever went bad...it'd be a dark day indeed
Any day now
@@MattDraper Noo! Avoid being corrupted! 😅
Matt is going to say the N word.
Imagine Matt getting an evil Bizarro type clone called Reprad Ttam.
Thanking for saying John Romita Jr is a good artist. I know some people don’t like him but I think he’s a great storyteller and artist. Great video as always.
Absolutely! I was going to comment the same thing! He got me into comics in the first place.
I agree. Romita Jr is a great artist and yet some people keep saying his art is bad. His art is not bad and it drives me crazy when people claim it us.
I only ever knew Onslaught from Marvel vs Capcom and thought he looked super badass. His background sounds fun and interesting. Great video, Mateo!
Gracias, Diego! Onslaught looks badass and that’s about it haha
I'll have you know Dark Nights: Metal is freaking awesome. Hyped it's getting a sequel.
The biggest heel turn of all? The comic book industry itself.
What about the opposite like villains becoming heroes like Megatron, magneto and Harley Quinn (more anti hero)
Sounds like a future video!
When and why did Megatron become a hero?
Oren Mandelbaum IDWs More than meets the eye
@@orenmandelbaum3795 As for the Why, IDW's Megatron was a much more complex character, and, to cut a very long story short, during the Crossover event Dark Cybertron, things got... screwy.
Shockwave was reaching the end of a several-million year scheme to collapse time itself around Cybertron, sacrificing the universe to fuel it forever- Shockwave is pretty much the Big Bad of the entire IDW universe, _everything_ is his fault. The Autobots, Decepticons, and Neutrals teamed up to stop him, Megatron among them.
Megs is having a bit of a crisis at this point. He spends a large portion of the story lacking in the leg department, after Galvatron, who _isn't_ Megatron in this universe, ripped him in half while using the Space Bridge network inside Megs' body to escape from the Dead Universe, so he has to be carried around by Bumblebee. He also has to deal with the fact that Starscream has managed to become the leader of Cybertron by winning the hearts and minds of a neutral population tired by the Autobots and Decepticons' endless war.
After all this, and the realisation that his original goals had been forgotten in the rampant bloodlust he'd succumbed to since he started the revolution against the corrupt Senate and Primes.
This culminated in a scene where Bumblebee convinced Megatron to not solve all his problems with a cannon for the first time. And then Shockwave blasted Bumblebee through the back and killed him.
In the subsequent fight, Megatron donned Bumblebee's Autobot badge, and aiding Prime in stopping Shockwave.
@@ToaArcan Holy shit that sounds incredible
Now you should explore the other side of the coin and cover the thunderbolts: villains who, over time, grow into the role of being heroes, and discover that they love it!
I definitely think I’ll do another video that is this topic reversed
Matt Draper I look forward to it!
Weren't they led by the second Baron Zemo at first?
Xehanort10 Yes. They were.
"Secret Wars HONKS" hahaha love you, Matt. But, #CyclopsWasRight.
The fact that a video like this with so much research, slick editing, amazing writing and voice over only gets this much views REALLY REALLY annoys me, keep up the good work Matt, amazing as always and hope the very best for you my friend.
JRJR is one of my favourite artists, thanks for that shoutout!
He deserves some more appreciation!
Check out the extended essay version of this video on CBH, with even more villainous turns - www.comicbookherald.com/when-superheroes-go-bad-22-times-in-chronological-order/
Fantastic! Glad to Discover the Deeper meaning of the Storyline. Deeper and Profound.
I love that you took a moment to hype JRJR ♥️
Great video as always. You are truly on top of this game
Kid Miracleman is one of my favorite villains and I sometimes forget he was never intended to become a villain. He just worked so well in the transition tbh.
Your writing and comments on this one where brilliant. Great overview as well
Also your comments on cyclops is fighting words good sir 😆
For a while, Adam Warlock’s whole thing was that he fought against the Magus, his evil future self he was fated to become. After he killed Thanos ( he got better), he took his own life, preventing the dark future from happening ( he got better).
14:38 "Oh god I don't care about the Sentry, let's move on." LMAO that was savage. The Sentry is such a ripoff.
God I just wish comics let go of the attempts at shock value, reboots/relaunches, events with little substance and convoluted storytelling. Mostly I wish they would let go of the Stan Lee storytelling idea that we should manufacture character development. We should just let characters grow and tell inventive forward moving stories.
Letting characters grow was already done by DC in the 90s but they turned the clock back.
Maximiliano Procopio I honestly think DC should use Wally West to go back to Post Crisis continuity
Hello there Matt Draper, I’ve been a long time fan and viewer of your videos. However, I have noticed out of all the most memorable heroes that you’ve spotlighted, you have never once done a video on Wonder Woman. If you need an idea for a good Wonder Woman story to highlight, I suggest The Legend of Wonder Woman Origins written and gorgeously illustrated by Renae De Liz.
I chose this over spongebob......
One of the best choices ive ever made
19:11 Yeah, nah, "readers" weren't enraged over Nazi Steve, "readers" knew exactly what they were looking at from the very start and at best were tired of seeing that old trope again. The only ones enraged were people who only read tweets.
Never read the story, is it any good? I only know it's controversial because of the twist, but I don't know about the quality of the actual work
@@basscot17 Honestly, I grew tired of Marvel by then, but I still hung out at the discussion boards, which is why I know anything at all about it. From what I can gather, the build-up was better than the actual story - which is par for the course when it comes to comic book events, to be honest.
@@basscot17 it's only controversial
@Rohan Clancy The writer that immediately followed Secret Empire was Waid for a very short run, most of which dealt with time travel shenanigans so most of the arc felt superfluous as you knew nothing that happened would have any bearing on current stuff and would just be forgotten. Kinda like Marvel was looking for filler until they brought someone new in, which ended up being Coates who I think is the story you're referring to. It definitely feels filled with a lot of race and gender issues. Feels exhausting to read personally. I usually like to read fiction to escape reality and be engrossed in problems I never have to face, not have authors tell me their political positions through fictional characters.
I dropped Marvel titles for a good while when Nazi Cap happened, I knew the old trope but the way Marvel (and Nick Spencer’s social media) was marketing it was as if this was the REAL secret history of Captain America, and they put real effort into this idea, with flashbacks and Secret Empire (which helped the overwhelming crossover fatigue), and this seemed like a really cheap way to attract people through controversial lies... Of course, it all ended up being bullshit like expected, but you don’t do “Cap was always a Nazi”... You just don’t. So, yeah, some readers were enraged.
Looking back, the “Hail Hydra” moment and everything that came with it (the downplaying of nazism rhetoric after the torch had been passed down to a black superhero) sure plays a very specific note in our current political climate...
I appreciated the change in format
Cyclops was right
He still sucked
Even if he is right and the Avengers help mutantkind what then? Make Spider-Man a billionaire? The books would be over then. You take away what made them special.
@@UnrealNeoBat of course...just quote that line whenever I get a chance. It was probably my favorite Cyclops era.
and to be fair...they did make Spidey rich for a second
@@UnrealNeoBat……god dammit it Slott
My history of American Comic Books teacher (who attended the first comic-con!) stopped reading all Marvel titles permanently after Nazi Cap.
I don't blame him. It made no sense. Why would Steve Rogers who pre super soldier serum was weak and frail but still wanted to fight the Nazis because of what they were doing to the point he volunteered for the Super Soldier Serum to get the strength and power needed to stop them during World War II join Hydra, a Nazi group? It'd be like Superman joining an anti alien group.
Superior Iron Man deserves his own video
Cyclops is the best, how dare you
He killed brainwashing pedo Xavier, one of the worst villain in marvel
Two wrongs don’t make a right!
You don’t like the Sentry? But he’s pretty cool!
Cyclops is a dick though
Raphael becoming the Shredder on the TMNT Image comics is another great superhero going bad.
This was a great video. Absolutely loved it
Secret Empire was so ambitious, and while I think it's pacing and the character decisions weren't always fleshed out enough, I have to love it to a certain degree for what it tried to do. Nick Spencer really took risks on the run and the Steve Rogers and Sam Wilson cap runs were a lot of fun and great books up until it all sort of fell apart. If only the art in the Steve Rogers hadn't become completely abysmal in the end. So much of the backlash on that nook was a total waste because the majority of it came from people who don't even read comics. I just wish the book hadn't become a mess and it might have been one of the best events Marvel had ever done.
Loving it so far Mr Draper. xx
I beg to differ,sir. The Dark Phoenix Saga wasn't any kind of big event. It wasn't even a standard crossover. I don't even think that The Dark Phoenix Saga was a title used in the issues contained therein. I think that those issues were only retroactively given that title. It was just a span of several issues of Uncanny X-Men.
Amazing video as always sir!
That is a nice list, but my favoiret Superheroes Going Bad Stories are The Judis Contract, Dark Phoenix Saga, Watchmen, Winter Soulder and Infinet Crissis.
I'm so glad you recognize that Professor X is and always has been Marvel's greatest villain
Excellent vid, Matt!
"EVERYTHING WAS BETTER ON MY EARTH"- Superdick Prime
Secret Empire was Amazing!!
Fav video!!!! I would love something similar, with all the times villans go good!!!
Man I love your videos
Good channel right here
I know Matt’s in the dumps about comics/superheroes right now, but Jesus Christ, I need to make a full video on the DD Shadowland story. The run needs a proper video from a comic book channel, and there is quite literally no one more fitting to suffer through it😂
I apologize for not watching this video on premiere since I had to do some schoolwork.
With that out of the way, I feel like the heroes turning bad trope has become overdone. While that kind of storyline can work, it takes a good execution to do so. There are exceptions such as Dark Phoenix saga, Winter Soldier and Under the Red Hood (both comic and movie) that are excellent stories. But then you have Shadowland, Emerald Twilight and Secret Empire that are well intentioned but just kind of burn real fast. But this is another great video to your library. Can’t wait for the next one as always.
No worries! Thanks!
Yeah. You have to give them a good storyline and good reasons to go bad not just "This character's evil now."
That moment when your favorite comic youtuber says Cyclops sucks...ooof.
P.s. secret wars TOTALLY honks
Do you think you'll ever make a video just on Secret Empire? There's many things during that arc that make you go "wtf" and it would be interesting to see the behind-the-scenes of what led to some of those questionable choices.
Helluva episode man!
Literally, not 4 hours ago my coworker was in my office talking to me about how he wanted to see an Onslaught movie and me just quietly nodding because I couldn't remember what Onslaught was all about. Thanks for the refresh!
I mean, he’s pretty easy to forget besides just look cool.
Captain Hydra has to be the worst case. If any other character became a hydra agent, it It would not have been so disastrous. Because Cap was made by jew artists in WW2 as a statement against nazis... and then Marvel makes him a nazi
And one of the things that most infuriated the fans was that Marvel excuse was "hydra and nazis aren't the same thing, they may have worked together for decades and have the same goal, but they aren't the same"
Secret Wars was great and Cyclops has always been an awesome dickhead, he just chose to stop pretending otherwise. Goddamnit, Matt!
Okay, but Cyclops was the hero of AvX.
So, my biggest issue with turning characters evil is that the stories never explore the long term implication on a Hero's relationships
Separated from the reeeeeing of comic nerds, Secret Empire is a pretty bangin' story.
I don't even think they're comic nerds necessarily, I don't know what comic nerd DOESN'T know all "superhero turned bad" stories aren't eventually retconned.
Also, let's be real, in context, Captain America becoming a fascist was a pretty timely, if unsubtle, metaphor.
_You either die a hero or live long enough to become a villan... And then get discussed by Matt Draper._
Emerald Twilight is my most favourite among these all; maybe because I haven't read all these arcs.
I love that you call them edgelord batmen that's so perfect!! accurate too god that was a weird event now heavy metal seems like it's going full campy, not just jump the shark but powerbomb it then dab over it
I never read Secret Empire, but I didn't mind the idea of Cap temporarily being Hydra. You need new ways of challenging your heroes, and what a harder way then that hero becoming what they hate?
Excellent video as always. Do Dan Slott's Silver Surfer! Please
Sometime this year!
I think the trope is pretty played out at this point, but Dark Phoenix, Emerald Twilight, Winter Soldier, and technically, Superior Spider-Man shows the high points of that trope.
Definitely some of the best
Why don't you like cyclops?
I would read the heck out of a series exploring what happens when Martian Manhunter goes bad... Unless that's already happened and I missed it somehow.
15:54, now we know where New 52 Nightwing stole his costume from
Dude, you need to make a Watchmen video ASAP
My favorite hero gone bad story was the future king Thor one
The Sentry is one of my favorite Marvel characters -.-
I never understood the cyclops sucks line of thinking lol. I just don't understand why people the character is a bad character. Is he supposed to be cliche?
"Who cares about Armageddon 2001?" I'm gonna raise my hand and say I enjoy the crossover. There's some excellent stories in the annuals with Flash, Detective Comics, Justice League of America and the Superman annual being standouts. I think the only misstep was the ending. If they rolled into it and kept it as Captain Atom, this story would probably be more acclaimed. It's got some good stuff in there, but it's always marred by that ending.
Also...I'm a Cyclops fan.
No offense taken at anything in the video, though. This was very well done!
10:05 Judd Winick even preferred writing the film to the comic. Probably because the stupid "Superboy Prime punches reality and that resurrects Jason" wasn't his idea.
Y'know sometimes you just gotta let the leak go. They got you.
Years later no one would give a crap about a month early reveal, they would like a good well thought out and structured story with the big reveal as hinted and scripted.
Have you ever consider doing a video about the Elseworld comics i think they are quite interesting in particular "The expressionist trilogy"
You did a great job on the video. It was a fun concept. And yea John Romita Jr. is a good artist! Also why is the Sentry bad? I thought the idea of a character with superman-esq powers and being mentally unstable, would make for some good stories. Is he just not written well?
Funny funny stuff! Great video
Man they better not make Forbush Man a villain then I’ll be really mad
Cyclops is my favorite hero
Wait, does "honks" mean its bad? I really liked that story honestly. Worst thing was the delays, but a lot of the tie-ins were fun.
Was that some hotline miami music I heard? Good taste
Will you make a video on john romita jr.?
Gosh I completely forgot Diggles crap DD run and Shadowland
Whooa, they are so many heroes who became evil. A little depresse.
I like the Red Rain trilogy it's not crappy. Plus Vampire batman gives up his life so he doesn't stay a killing machine anymore
I consider the Clark Kent from Kurt Busiek's Superman Secret Identity the true continuation of Pre-Crisis Superboy Prime, in my headcanon in his absence and later murderous insanity, the Presence created a new universe similar to Earth Prime with its own Superboy who goes on to grow up as Superman.
I dunno if it counts, but Id also add Cable from Deadpool and Cable comics where he tried to make Providence at the behest of SHIELD and tried to blow up the sun to try to unite the world nations to kill him to show how the world could be if they worked together. Maybe he didn't turn bad, but he takes on the X-men, Silver Surfer etc. I also like Ultimate Reed Richard aka the Maker though I guess he is just a villian now.
I don't think I'd count it, but I really like Deadpool & Cable.
@@MattDraper Yeah I thought it was iffy. Thanks!
"who will be next"
DC: looks at the infected. Haha yeah that's so true, who'd do such a thing. 😐
Angel was so wasted in the X-men movies
Cyclops is great. AvX was not.
Squirrel Girl should turn evil. Thus, she'd come to embody crime/villainy itself. Impossible to overcome, ineffably difficult to pin down, inexplicably overwhelming - and what happens when good men do nothing.
*looks at 90s*
this is gonna take a while
Imagine if the MCU adapted The Crossing. Like, if that was Iron Man 4. People would so pissed, they would throw garbage at the screens.
“He got better”
10:48 Thank you!
I'm disappointed in your opinion of Cyclops, who was clearly right.
Even if he is right and the Avengers did help the mutants what then? Make Spider-Man a billionaire? He was an Avenger at the time. The books would just be over then.
:O Mattt! i can´t believe it, i´m always agree at every thing you said, but.... come on man, CYCLOPS y a great character!!!! he is the quintesencial X-men!
Okay but to be clear... cyclops was right.