5 Games I Played So You Don’t Have To - with Tom Vasel
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 มิ.ย. 2024
- Tom Vasel takes a look at 5 games that did not leave a good impression.
0:00 Intro
1:10 Bantam West
4:01 The Battle for Sampo
6:09 The Glade
8:56 Mercurial
12:05 Age of Comics
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I can just see the Mercurial marketing team going to 9:22 for a quote..
"This is a really fun game." - Tom Vasel
I like fun games!
...it is a "fun game"!
Hi Tom,
Giacomo Cimini here, co-designer and publisher of "Age of Comics: The Golden Years." As a micro-company of just two people, we deeply value every opportunity to engage with our players and reviewers alike. Thank you for your thoughtful review and for bringing attention to our game, even though we wish it were under more favorable circumstances. Your inclusion of our game in the infamous "5 Games I Played So You Don’t Have To" list certainly highlights some areas we might clarify or improve upon.
- Genre Matching Between Comics and Creatives: While matching the genres of comics with their corresponding creatives (writers and artists) is beneficial, it is not obligatory. This mechanic is designed to offer strategic choices, allowing players to match for bonuses or diverge for other tactical reasons. The game provides flexibility, encouraging players to explore different strategies and find what works best for them.
- Rip-off Comics: As mentioned in the manual, we suggest integrating rip-off comics into gameplay once players are more experienced. This element is intended to add depth to the game as players' understanding of the mechanics deepens. Rip-offs can significantly speed up the activation of Special Actions and help fulfill sales orders efficiently, making them a valuable strategic tool for seasoned players.
- Comic Prices: You mentioned fluctuating market conditions, but they are not part of our game. The cost of producing comics is fixed based on the combined values of the creatives, providing a stable economic planning environment without the variability of fluctuating market conditions.
- Economic Balance: Our economic model mimics the realistic progression of a business, where funds are initially limited but grow as the game progresses. This challenges players to make thoughtful economic decisions early in the game.
- Genre Mastery and Control: Mastery of a genre is dynamically contested, allowing shifts in control based on strategic publishing. This mechanic encourages continuous competitive play and strategic decision-making.
- Worker Placement Dynamics: The worker placement mechanism evolves as the game progresses with the activation of the Special Actions. We're sorry to hear it felt sluggish and will take this feedback into consideration for future game developments.
- Card Drawing Luck vs. Strategy: While luck is a component in drawing cards, the game is designed with several options to mitigate this through targeted card searches and the ability to discard and refine hands, enhancing strategic depth.
We appreciate your insights and hope this clarification helps. Understanding these aspects might offer a new perspective on the game's strategic options.
Best regards,
Giacomo Cimini
...exactly.
...any thoughts on Tom's ideas about the persistent emergent luck requirement?
Thank you@@stephenfarrell8587 for the question. In the game, the element of emergent luck, such as in the selection of creatives through the 'Hire!' action, is indeed an integral part. This randomness is designed to mimic real market fluctuations, adding a layer of unpredictability that each player must strategically manage. Players who choose this action first benefit from a broader selection, enhancing the strategic depth of the game. We consciously chose not to replenish the market immediately after selections because, much like in the real world, creative resources are finite and not always immediately available.
The 'Develop!' action, where players can choose a comic book title and genre for $4, counterbalances luck by providing a deterministic strategy for those seeking more control. This high early-game price reflects the theme that more development options become available as a company grows and invests in its capabilities.
In the 'Sales!' action, the mechanics of turning genre tiles at the beginning of each round are designed to simulate how a growing company gains clearer insights into market opportunities, aligning with the theme of expansion and market adaptation.
This mix of mechanics ensures that luck can be both a challenge and an opportunity, requiring players to adapt and strategize dynamically in response to the unfolding game conditions. We aimed to create a thematic experience that immerses players in the world of comic book publishing, where strategic decisions are crucial to success.
@@stephenfarrell8587 In the game, the element of emergent luck, such as in the selection of creatives through the 'Hire!' action, is indeed an integral part. This randomness is designed to mimic real market fluctuations, adding a layer of unpredictability that each player must strategically manage. Players who choose this action first benefit from a broader selection, enhancing the strategic depth of the game. We consciously chose not to replenish the market immediately after selections because, much like in the real world, creative resources are finite and not always immediately available.
The 'Develop!' action, where players can choose a comic book title and genre for $4, counterbalances luck by providing a deterministic strategy for those seeking more control. This high early-game price reflects the theme that more development options become available as a company grows and invests in its capabilities.
In the 'Sales!' action, the mechanics of turning genre tiles at the beginning of each round are designed to simulate how a growing company gains clearer insights into market opportunities, aligning with the theme of expansion and market adaptation.
This mix of mechanics ensures that luck can be both a challenge and an opportunity, requiring players to adapt and strategize dynamically in response to the unfolding game conditions. We aimed to create a thematic experience that immerses players in the world of comic book publishing, where strategic decisions are crucial to success.
Dear Tom and team,
If any of you are attending the UK Games Expo (UKGE), Sonia and I would be thrilled to meet and play the game with you in person. We think it could lead to an interesting follow-up discussion! Looking forward to the possibility of connecting at the event, and thank you for checking out our game.
Really love Age of Comics and I’m glad I have the Collectors’ Edition on my shelf. It’s super thematic, gorgeously produced and plays really
smoothly. You’re wrong on this one Tom - give it another go!
I quite like Mercurial. It definitely is a heavier version of Century Spice, but the multiple paths to success, the gorgeous production quality, and the very strong solo mode means that they both have a place in my collection. It’s not as immediately accessible as Century but for a player looking for that gameplay loop with a bit more going on, it’s one I enjoy.
Not sure why Age of Comics is on this list it's a belter. Mixing two of my favourite hobbies and it works. Shame you didn't feel the same, I hope people make up their own mind and give it a try
I like Age of Comics. I wanted to play it for the theme and really enjoyed the gameplay.
Agreed!
Yay, the old intro is back! 😄
Thank you!
Mercurial was great and plays fast after the tutorial first game. At 4 players we completed it in an hour.
I really like Age of Comics. The economy is tight and you really have to weigh your options with every worker you get to place. I will agree if someone calls it a “twelve in a dozen” worker placement game, but to me the mechanisms do blend with the theme of being a comics publisher. There is a small luck factor with the card market or draw, but a good player can work around that and I’ve never had a player at the table complain their chances were thwarted by the luck factor. By someone else taking a spot they wanted to go next, yes, but that’s typical worker placement for you.
Nice!
votum separatum on Age of Comics, I played it and it was very thematical and fun, I played with another comic book fan, so it might have mattererd
What confuses me is that Tom states how excited he was to get hold of this game. I'd hope that this meant he'd already seen the board and components but when he said the art was fantastic he appeared to be only referring to the cover art so maybe it's table presence was less Art Deco than he expected. Perhaps then, they didn't quite apply themselves to the gameplay experiencing it as superficial and luck-based even while thematic.
All the best.
Personally, I really enjoyed Age of Comics. I’ve also know many people really liked Bantam Wedt if you liked Xia and Western Legends.
Yeah, I backed it on KS and it was one of my favorite games of last year, and this year, too! For first time publishers and designers (of just 2 people) the game looks amazing and theme and actions match up perfectly, which you can't say about many euros. I would have lked to have seen this on one of the DT videos where it's more than just Tom but, ultimately, he's just one guy so if he doesn't like it that doesn't mean people shouldn't seek it out (other reaction videos during the KS campaign loved it).
@@heyheyjk-la Absolutely, and yes a shared playthrough with Mark and the designers would be great to see on this channel.
People should remember that opinions are opinons. One person's opinon doesn't supercede anothers.
But some opinions carry more weight than others. Tom's carry weight, a very heavy weight, as opposed to a regular person nobody knows.
that does not modify the definition of an opinion.
@@db8094 but it does state the fact that some opinions are weighed more than others.
interesting - I really enjoyed Age of Comics. Have played it several times, people seem to really like it
Yeah, that was quite a long list of niggles Tom has with the design, sigh.
Cheers and good gaming.
Spurs was the western sandbox before Western Legends
I wholeheartedly disagree with your opinion about Age of Comics.
The rip-off comics have changed the outcome of the game the couple of times I have played; they matter a lot more than you mentioned, IMO. And while I don’t think it’s a groundbreaking game, the theme is really strong, it’s not hard to get into and a 5 is waaay too harsh of a score for what the game is.
I would give it a 7.
Personally, I really enjoy bootlegging other people's comics. I think it's hilarious
@@eVanDiesel Yes, it is really funny as well 😅
Agreed.
I personally do not think a score change of 5/10 to that of 7/10 is a significant change. Mediocre or median average is a 7 score. In the scope of a review based channel like the dice tower, anything at or below a 7 is arguably a pass in the context of how many games are released every year. I had posted some initial thoughts on this game directly following the kickstarter and even on follow-up play, I find I score it around 6/10. While opinions differ on things, I hope you continue to enjoy the game. Happy Gaming!
Hmmm... While I agree on all the points Tom raised regarding Bantam West, after putting the effort in, I felt it was a really good game. Replaces western legends for me. That being said i agree with the points that the rule book is terrible (even the official youtube teach video they did and possibly paid for was overtly slow) and because of the that the setup for the first game was slow. But once i got into it, it was really good. I love the openness of it. I just wish that they had made it more accessible cos i fear not enough people will give it a chance or more likely will not put in the effort to learn it (and i don't blame them). But there is a really good sandbox game in there.
I felt the same about mercurial. Felt a bit too conviluted for what it's trying to do. I discovered century afterwards and enjoyed that more. Perhaps having played century a few times and returning to mercurial will change my opinion...
Perhaps, hopefully...I have played the Century games happily while enjoying the immersion Mercurial offers.
Cheers and good gaming.
Age of Comics is really fun amd thematic. I cant get in line with the review on this game.
Indeed.
I kind of agree on what Tom said about Age of comics. The thing that I had the most fun about that game is that when you print a comic book or a rip-off, you needed to tell a little bit about the comic that you created. It's not in the rules, but it made it a little bit more enjoyable to play.
Yeah, I enjoy this kind of descriptive play in Call to Adventure...Age of Comics appeals in other ways too so I haven't regretted backing it.
Cheers and good gaming.
Mercurial is really good in my opinion. It is century spice road suped-up.
It does have a learning curve, and it is possible that others players could, by luck, be one step ahead of you. However you just need to be able to recognize that and pivot.
Also the Automa are easy to run and do a good job simulating other players.
Oh well, I’m really glad I own it.
Me too!
Thanks! Regards from SK 😅.
We met in KL long long time ago. EARCOS
I liked age of comics; but I only played it as a solo game.
My original intention to!
Cheers.
My reaction to Age of Comics is weird. i enjoy it, I really like the theme, but I can't really dispute anything Tom said. I think it's the kind of thing where if you like the theme enough you can overlook some of the rough edges.
One of the people I played it with had zero interest in the theme, but still really enjoyed the game.
@@AdamWhitehead111Wow, that’s interesting!
Hi, I'm wondering if there's something about unmet expectations for the game mixing around in the reactions of people resonating with Tom's views?
Cheers and good gaming.
I really enjoyed Mercurial but did have a pretty rough learning game. It took awhile for the rules to "click" with me, but once they did I found a lot to like. Yes it basically is Century Golem Edition but more complicated, but sometimes playing a game like Century Golem but with a lot more thinky bits is exactly what I'm looking for so I do recommend it, although you may want to watch how to play videos to help learn it
Thank you for your well explained contrary opinion.
Man that cover of mercurial is beautiful
It's a beautiful game and a lot better than Tom is making it out to be. Check out a playthrough online, if it seems fun to you then I recommend picking up a copy - the Deluxe if possible since that includes a fifth character and better solo mode (it's only very slightly more expensive, it's worth it).
Good to hear. Found this cheap but haven’t gotten to play it yet
@@ObsidianKnight90 Absolutely!
Bantam West has somehow figured out how to print text on a card that is so small that even a robot couldn't read it.
Non-gaming comment: I've been meaning to ask since you started wearing the new glasses: Are the faceplates that heavy, or do you just need them adjusted? You seem to be pushing them back up a lot. The faceplates look neat, but they look really impractical based on that.
I have to say, I really disagree about The Glade. My partner and I have played it 18 times since it arrived in November, and she’s cited it as one of her all-time favorites. For me it’s a 9/10. Luck *can* be a factor, but the better player still wins almost every time, as my partner’s win record over me proves. The game lasts just long enough that the luck curve tends to average out most (admittedly not all) of the time.
I agree and came here to say this. I haven’t tried the more complicated side yet, but I enjoyed the game. I do think they could have done a better job with the color choices.
Reminds me of a boardgame of the game SET
I couldn't disagree more about Age of Comics. It's probably one of my favorite games from last year. I definitely recommend it for anyone who likes comics!
This review leaves me with the impression that Tom didn't explore the game that much before writing his review. For example, the rip-offs absolutely have a purpose and they're especially valuable if you can get the double print action spot. Rip-offs can speed up access to special actions early at the cost of points in the end game. They can also be key to getting the mastery tokens from other players.
Agreed!
Yes and this sort of show and title is very detrimental to small gaming companies.
When the game is average, the score is average. Opinion based reviews are exactly that. Small or large company, honesty from the reviewer is why we watch it.
Re: Bantam West.
Cross posting my response from the other review video specifically for Bantam West.
I think Tom really missed the mark here. First of all, the rulebook is simply not that bad. And there are two of them. The "Standard Field Manual" covers setup and rules for all the training scenarios. The whole setup for the intro scenario is on one page. All the rules required for each scenario are listed at the top of the scenario. So you start with the scenario overview, and then every rule required by the scenario is described in the following pages. How is that confusing? Looking up rules can be a little problematic, the rulebooks could use an index, but it's not THAT bad. But he wonders how to onboard new players and then complains about scenarios designed to introduce rules over time? That makes no sense at all!
Also, I suppose that you could ignore everything except what is delivered in the box, but they did make a "How to play" video and the team is incredibly active and supportive on BGG. If you actually watch the video and then play the training scenarios in order, I would be astonished if you had any real issues learning the game.
And not knowing what to do? You gotta be kidding me. It's a race for VP. There are a ton of ways to gain VP. It's not exactly rocket science to see that building a cabin, mining resources, getting a horse and acquiring a weapon are all reasonable things to shoot for. Now, he may not like the process of gaining that VP, but my gaming group sure did. If you just do those things, the training scenario is kind of done. If you're playing the normal mode, you will soon discover that the game is all about action optimization. So playing the game well takes some time, as it should, but being clueless about where to start? No. Way.
It wouldn't surprise me if Tom just jumped straight into "Masters of Chaos" without playing any of the training scenarios. I could see where that would be tricky. If he DID play the training scenarios, his critiques don't make a lot of sense to me.
Reply
I understand the purpose of video titles like "I played this so you don't have to..." but it's a bit unfair when talking about first-time indie publishers who rely on new folks' willingness to give their games a try. Everything goes through growing pains, and Bantam West is no exception. It was my first time making a game and first time writing a rulebook... and have been working non-stop to make improvements since its launch.
Hopefully, there are people who see videos like this and are still willing to give an updated V2 of Bantam West a try... including you Tom 🙏
- Ike
@PieInSkyGuy Also, it looks like ICE 🧊 has the same thing going for it. Its 2nd Edition is currently on crowdfunding!
It’s not unfair if Tom doesn’t like the game. This is just a different format of review and reviews are subjective.
@@arcaderunner2188 What you said would be fair if the literal title of the video was not telling people not to bother playing the games in the list. The original commenter wasn't saying Tom's opinion was unfair. They are saying that it's not particularly fair to present the games as ones people shouldn't bother trying -- particularly as even Tom says in the first few seconds of the video that people should try them. The name of the video seems to be clickbait-ish to try and attract people who think Tom's going to beat up on the games, but that's not really what the video is. A better title would be "Games I didn't like but maybe you will" as that is essentially Tom's philosophy.
You're right. Everyone is free to express their own opinions. And I've been a fan of Tom and Dice Tower for years, so I hold their opinions in high regard (my tastes align more with Zee's, though)...
However, Tom's mentions of "poker" and "hunting in the desert" lead me to believe that he didn't actually play the game before adding it to a "I played this so you don't have to" list. I've been asked by countless individuals to ADD poker, but deliberately chose not to add any gambling to BW because of my family history. And there is no desert biome (yet).
I don't think he gave it the time of day before making a 6/10 decision. A score any lower than that, and someone as influential as Tom can do fatal damage to an indie publisher like us..
Regardless, we must focus on what we can control and strive to create the best games possible. Significant improvements are on the horizon.
- Ike
Bantam West was our Game of the year 2023, no pun included..
This is how different different groups react on different games :D
Just to get an idea, Games of the year for us, from former years were Food Chain Magnate, Oath, John Company 2nd, Clank Legacy...
Bantam to me feels absolutely right in this line
5 for Mercurial feels a little overly negative but oh well.
Yes, I'm hope more people wonder about that here.
Maybe a playthrough/teach with the designer would normalize the perceived convolutions unfolding during gameplay.
Cheers.
I enjoy Age of Comics more than you did but I do agree it feels like some sort of special sauce is missing to make it really exciting.
We enjoy it too
Somethings left for a saucy expansion, perhaps?
Cheers.
Disagree with Tom on Age of Comics and Mercurial. Regarding AoC, Tom doesn’t seem to understand that they are “rip-off” comics, not counterfeit. They are completely different concepts and I don’t think they explained how the rip-off comics work (and how they are thematic).
I have no issue with him not liking the games after one play, the issue is that the tone of the video is “no one at the Dice Tower enjoyed any of these games.” Which is implying that they are terrible. The reviews with 2-4 reviewers are great for the balance provided, this video is very one-sided. I think more videos should at least include two reviewers - one to provide a counterpoint if the first reviewer is just lambasting the game.
The theme of Age of Comics is so good and really well implemented, but the decision space is just way too small. And if one player gets lucky with the cards a couple more times than others, then theyre just flat out gdoing better.
Disagree with you about the knockoffs, though. Theyre a great way to get cash and get closer to those bonuses faster.
Tom has never heard the word mercurial. 😄
I like age of comics. The card draw and market is just too random for how tight the points are in the game.
Hi BlissMyth,
Have you found yourself relaxing into this optimization puzzle if I may call it that?
Cheers and good gaming.
Are they supposed to be counterfeit comics, or just copycat ideas? Like mockbusters
Hi Maxheel,
From the bottom of Pg 8 of the rulebook:
"RIP-OFFS (For the first few games, to make the game less complex, players can decide to play without rip-offs)
You can print a rip-off of an existing original comic book printed by one of the other players in previous rounds.
For that you do not need to spend Idea tokens or to have previously “developed” a comic book.
You only need a pair of creatives and the money to pay them.
Note: only 1 rip-off per original comic book is allowed."
interesting glasses you got there Tom
The glade is great.
Bring me the... SAMMMMPOOOOO
Agree on Bantam West. It's a mess. There might be a good game in there but I don't have time to find it
3:26 I remember watching a gameplay video for BW, with a family with a kid. They had told him, ‘Don’t just do whatever you want. Do what is going to help you get points.’
Glad I sold Bantam tbh. When I opened the box and read the rules it was clear to me. They wanted everything and accomplished little. I think with a V2 it could become great. I respect the vision
Age of Comics is a great game. Boo!!! ( I especially disagree about the counterfeit comics. They are a great aspect!)
i don't know why everyone jumped to these new mics... they just sound muddy and fragile. i don't like them
Mecrurial looks great but the game was not very good. You have too many turns where you are just doing nothing but gathering a few resources waiting to cast your spell. I really wanted to like the game so played it at least 10 times, but it just didn't get any better.
I feel like I'm confused - didn't you like the comic game a lot before? What game am I confusing it with?
You're probably thinking of Comic Hunters.
@@TheClyd3Man probably!
I strongly disagree with Tom regarding Mercurial, I think it's a 9/10. The iconography isn't that complicated and every player gets a reminder card with all of the symbology explained. Acuity is very easy to understand, it's a resource you can spend to use certain card effects or in place of Mana when taking Spells. There are both asymmetrical and 'standard' characters players can pick from and the asymmetrical ones play just different enough to approach the game's mechanics in different ways. I've never had the game go longer than 90 minutes and it scores faster with fewer players. While some turns are shorter and less 'explosive' than others I think that's a good thing, it stops turns from escalating in length over the course of the game. Finally, Ruin and Restore give different amounts of points so that it's harder to reach Equilibrium, something you obviously won't be able to achieve every time you cast a spell but which is worth it because you get a special token that enhances your next spell, as well as bonus victory points. It's a fantastic game and I think it deserves Tom giving it a second chance.
Yeah, don’t agree with Tom’s opinion on most of these, but unless a game grabs you immediately, you don’t have time to really understand and dig into the strategy of a game when you have hundreds to review a year. He hated Applejack, and I have a friend I play with who has that as her number one game of all time.
@@randalladkins7452 Mercurial is a game that takes two or three plays in order to get a sense for the flow of the game, the strategies and how characters play differently. Games like Gloomhaven are the same way but you don't see Tom giving them a 5/10.
@@ObsidianKnight90 Maybe he would today if it was new, though. :/
He is allowed to not like a game you like btw.
@@randalladkins7452 He gave Gloomhaven Buttons & Bugs an 8/10 and it doesn't even come with a full rulebook, you have to read it online or already know how to play Gloomhaven AND learn the new rules specific to Buttons & Bugs. So I doubt that's the case.
2:32 But isn’t that more a fault of a bad rulebook more so than the game itself? Why hate on the game for that? Unless you have other complaints about the actual game/gameplay…
"Game is not fun... 5 out of 10" 🤔
Its almost more disappointing when a game has a fantastic theme, beautiful art and unique ideas, only to have enough small issues that add up to make it a bad game. Always saddening to see such wasted potential
glade is quirkle but worse graphic design
There are too many good games out there for me to takes a chance on something you pan in a review. I don't always agree with your reviews but I listen carefully to what you say. I may be retired, but there are too few hours to play the games I have and it costs too much money to buy bad games.
Well, yeah. Our collections reflect the risks we are willing to take with our limited time remaining and of course...our tolerances and this slot's comments have certainly been an interesting experience to navigate through with regard to two of these games that have been covered that I actually like😁.
Cheers, Phillip.
1:11 Wow! Seems like I dodged a bullet! I ALMOST backed Bantam West!
Age of Comics was just... A soulless mishmash of different mechanisms that didn't come together in a good way at all.
Opinions are great and all but not sure the need for the intentional vitriol of this title/video.
I almost backed Bantam West. Glad I did not.
Me, too!... Although I played devil's advocate with some of my comments, lol 😆
"5 games i played so you don't have to" makes me think they are all bad games and doesnt give me an incentive to watch the video.
This is why I watch them :P
@@IJJusionLOL!!!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂
It is nice to see some negative review coverage for a change!
@@JJ_TheGreat ...mostly couched quite sensitively but yeah, somewhat disputed. I've not watched/read one of these before because of games that I like so can't help hoping that I will not need to come back😁.
All the best enjoying this interesting approach to gaming PSA's.