The worst are the fake fairy ones "Watch this ad and I'll give you 500g! No? Okay here's another ad anyways with no reward" Instant uninstall and 1 star review.
i'm glad i just straight up don't play mobile, because i didn't know something like this even existed, and definitely did not exist last time i played a mobile game
Whats also awful is when they offer that reward, then play another two ads anyway. My partner keeps trying to get me into playing mobile games but id rather chew through my leg than sit through that mind-numbing crap.
@@sixuk902 oh god that one pisses me off, but if I enjoy the game enough to watch an ad, (by that I mean I mute it and wait till I can skip it) and use the double reward button for my benefit for a bit. If an ad is to be played anyway, I might as well benefit from it. As much as I hate it.
The other monetization I tend to like is the kind that offer a "$5 to skip ads for life" shop option. At that point, it's functionally a $5 PUF game that you get to free trial for as long as you want before deciding to buy. Typically, these options feel like a respectable conversation between dev and player. The dev is essentially saying "look, we're proud of our game. We want it to just be a $5 PUF, but we know that wont fly on mobile market. We're doing FTP with ad support to get you in the door because we legitimately hope you'll like it. If you want to continue free with ad support, feel free. If you decide you like what you see and choose to directly support us by making it a PUF, we'd appreciate it. Either way, we leave that as your decision to make."
Agreed, i like that solution way more, because at the end of the day it is dev respecting our time. and we will gladly support the game if it is a fun game, it comes down to that, i prefer those games wahy more than games that have banners or other ways. that is how it should be and there are some games that have like cosmetics, and that is fine. in the end games are games, we buy them if we like them, simple as that.
I have a grand total of 2 games on my phone. Final Fantasy Tactics, which is a great version, runs well, adapted to touch controls, etc. Bought it outright because it's just how you buy the game. Then I have puzzle forge 2. I saw an ad supported version, tried it for 5 minutes, bought the game. When I'm out and about, I disable mobile data. If any app needs to contact HQ for any reason, I'm out. I treat all apps this way, even my medical prescriptions and GPS. It's not just about how I'm paying for your game, it's about how my location and other data are not being sold.
Kariosoft is a great example of a mobile studio that does this. I respect them for doing this and giving me a full game after. And I have followed them for 10+ years supporting the games they released like this
One model I also like is based around the fairy model. I used to play a game that had the fairy model, where you could watch a 30 second ad for bonus gold or whatever, same as what Thor described, but they also had a "get rid of ads" microtransaction for like $5 or something. I enjoyed the game so decided to buy it. What that then enabled me to do was claim the ad bonuses without watching an ad.
Had a game where you can get a random amount of extra gold b4 shopping by watching an ad(not real currency shop, like ingame shop gameplay wise) and by buying the 5 bucks ad free thingy you could just claim it without watching the ad.... the amount of time that saved me when i played this at a very unbusy time at work.... was very worth spending the money on xD
Reminds of a merge game I used to love. The game honestly gave me a lot of joy, but was just an ad farm. every couple minutes it would pop an ad, if I chose to watch the ad for bonus reward, it would be a 30 second ad. If I said no it would still pop the ad, but give me skip option after 5 seconds. I hated that, but they had a "remove ads forever" buy option for 3 bucks and I bought it. I played it for over a month and got a lot of joy from it. Then one day it updated, now it had a maximum amount of play per day, that you had to spend money or watch ads to get increased. My no more ads purchase was voided, and the new "no more ads" option that was added was 10 bucks. I uninstalled after that.
Sometimes you have to monetize a game so that players who download, it actually play it. In 2011, I launched a game for free. People installed it, loaded it up, played for 6 seconds, uninstalled it. Our star ratings were low on the app store. Then I slapped a £6.99 price tag on it ($9.99), only 1 other on the store had that level of price back then. All of a sudden, 5 star review, after 5 star review. Why? Because our game was something you could throw away for free but for £6.99, you had spent too much to turn it off before giving it a fair shot.
There's a story about black pearls. At the beginning, people tried to sell these things for a low price, and people didn't wanted to buy it because they thought it's just a worthless version of pearl. Then, one of the sellers went across the river and raised the price to match white pearls. Instant sale. There is nothing better than free, but paradoxically, people values free the least. So the phrase "no free lunch" remains, even in an era where we can definitely have free stuff, like free softwares.
This exact story happened with the Michelin road guides! Early on, the Michelin brothers created road guides to encourage travel and sell more tires, but gave it away for free. One of the brothers later saw the guide being used to balance a table, and realized "people will not respect that whoch does not value itself."
@@Alacritous I think he meant to say that the game started off bad for most people, but after giving it a little time it'd click and you'd see why it's good.
Yeah I think this is the way. Let me play for a couple of hours without ads or annoyances, then ask me for 5 bucks, and I'll most likely hand them over.
Totally agree. I don't play mobile games, but I have played quite a lot of Fallout Shelter, and they do that 'fairy model' thing. Click a box, watch a 30-second ad, get some in-game rewards. I'm totally fine with that. Likewise, he mentioned Honkai and ZZZ, I play both of them and Genshin Impact, and yeah, they really do respect your time. They are full, complete games, that constantly get updated, they don't throw ads in your face, and even the Gatcha systems are actually quite fair and allow you to earn plenty of the currency you need to engage with that system. I've played _well over_ 4,000 hours in Genshin over the last 4 years and I have absolutely no problems throwing them a fiver a month for a Welkin Moon. Works out as £60 a year. Basically the price of full game every year. It's totally worth it. I didn't pay any money into the game for the first year, but I gained so much respect for what they had given us for free, that I actually _WANTED_ to support them, and I have no problem continuing to do so. Game companies could seriously learn a lot from Hoyoverse. They do things right.
one option i didn't see him mention was the PuF subscription model where yes you pay up front but it's a recurring fee for access to a catalog of games that grows over time, i feel like it's becoming more common with apple arcade, google play pass, and netflix games.
4:57 Yeah. I once played the need for speed mobile game that had optional ads for bonuses. But it was annoying af. Because the free stuff was too small of a push. So i sat there ad farming to get more recources to progress and get new cars. Honestly i am glad i realized and dont play that game anymore. Although I really wanna collect all the cars still to this day.
As much as I personally don't play many games at all in the mobile space, I would be surprised if there were a better value proposition in the Pay Up Front model than Stardew Valley. The sheer amount of content and genuinely excellent gameplay mechanics in that game for a mere $5 is buck wild.
see that's one of the reasons I've stuck with hoyoverse, Genshin Impact specifically. Mixed feelings on Honkai but those are personal. I've had my frustrations with the gacha, but I've never once felt like my time was being abused. The game was fun, and not trying to overload me with ads. I do play it mostly on PC but even when I had it on my phone for a bit - the on-the-go was nice but MAN did it eat a chunk of space that I just didn't want to give up lol - I did not have a bad experience. Its one of the few cases where it has legitimately felt like 'game and players first' and because I enjoy the game and its characters, I'm still playing to this day, as a f2p. Odds are, once I have a steady income and don't have to worry about things, so long as their business model hasn't changed I'd be willing to drop a few bucks to support them.
I prefer the demo -> full game unlock model or the ads -> ad-free unlock. My problem with Pirate's preferred model is I don't have the level of trust necessary to presume I don't HAVE to watch the ad for my optimal experience.
I should preface this by saying that I will and have paid up front for mobile games and applications; it is my preference. I very well could be one of the people who wouldn't buy a game on mobile, but would on Steam for $3, and at least in my case it is no fault of the developer and is a perception issue, but not exactly the one Thor mentions. For me it specifically comes down to the physical experience. Touch screen controls make me feel so disconnected that it actually reduces the overall engagement and satisfaction I get from the game. In that way a game on Steam does have more value to me than it does on mobile because I enjoy it more. When I do play games on mobile (including emulators) it's almost exclusively turn based ones where the control interface matters a little less. Like I mentioned before, it's not the dev's fault, though I'm not entirely sure how best to remedy it. I have heard Apple has really good haptics in some of their products, and maybe that could eventually find its way into Android phones? I have carried a mini controller with me before and that makes the experience better, but it's really not ideal. I know there are gaming phones with dedicated buttons, but I don't want gaming to be the specific reason I buy a phone. I don't mind bulk on a phone, so in my mind the ideal solution would be some kind of phone case that was also a game controller. I have seen some things like that, but none that quite fit what I have in mind.
I'm with you. I have paid up front for mobile games, but I only do it for turn-based games where trying to use controls on a small touchscreen wouldn't be an issue. Steam also has the advantage of being more reliable - if I pay for a mobile game and then get a new phone, it's very up in the air as to how playable it'll be on the new device - will it run on the new device? will I have to pay for it again? Will I be able to access my saves/progress? Of note, I bought Star Trader Frontiers on both android and PC (got it on android first, got it on PC second in order to use mods), but have never played on PC, only on android. Devs are awesome, so I don't mind that the second payment is essentially lost. And for the record, STF android fell into the camp of 'will run on new device without more payment, but all saves and progress are gone' (but there are no microtransactions, so unlocks are gameplay that I can redo)
I find it rather sad to see so many games that are just wrapped ad players. From my understanding there are a handful of bigger organizations that bulk-create these tiny games which are just for the sake of ad-revenue.
These Thor interview are so good, the synergy seems to work between the four of you. What was the game Thor mentioned, that used the fairy model? Can't seem to find it on the app store..
I will always remember my first experience with mobile gaming. It was I think about 5-6 years ago from the time of this comment. It was this very enjoyable slot machine game with fantasy theme, so this parts all forest and fairies and woo I'm winning this is cool, and now this part is winter themed awesome but uhp I busted out. Game gives me a tiny bit of gold to keep playing each day.....but I enjoyed this for a first time mobile gaming. I'll go ahead and buy this 20$ game card thing, see how that works, see what I get for it. Buy card, put it into game, got a nice big bunch of gold, went through all of it in less than an hour and back to the tiny daily amount. I uninstalled the game and have NEVER played a mobile game since. *shrugs*
One of the better ways to do a one-time payment model for a mobile game that bypasses the aversion to pay-up-front - Pay to Unlock. Peglin's mobile release did this. The game was free, you could download and play the Forest (floor 1). You could play, you could have fun, and you could see if you liked the game. Then, once you already had a good experience, you could say "Yeah, this is worth 10 bucks," pay inside the game, and unlock the whole thing. I think that's a fantastic consumer-friendly way to go about things, because you're saying your game is worth 10 bucks, but you're letting the public play the game first and decide for themselves, instead of putting that barrier to entry that PuF creates.
One of my favorites (Hoplite) did something very similar. Roguelike that you could play as much as you want ftp, but spend $3 and you unlock 1000+ pre-made "challenge" levels.
Alot of games on steam have demos up just before they release and even for awhile after release now. So people can decide if they want to buy the game. This also Alleviates the amount of people asking for refunds just because the game isn't to their liking.
Another similar and arguably better one is just paying to remove the ads. Its like a demo with ads except there is no limit to what you can play, you can do the entire game for free if you wanted. It becomes a PuF style game once you pay to remove the ads as its usually what would've cost to buy the game in the first place.
Surely I can't speak for everyone, but for some people I don't think it's really a matter of "This game is on mobile, it doesn't deserve being paid", but rather more like "It's not on mobile that I'm going to play anything worth paying for". I don't know if I'm being clear. If a game is really worth being paid for, then it also deserves to be played in a way that valorises it more, like pc or console. I don't have anything against mobile games, I just despise the smartphone as a serious console. On a related note, I'm not paying $5 on Steam to play Tetris, that's a game that should be on smartphone for free. And I don't mean this with any negative connotation at all: I'm literally someone who is coding Tetris to publish it on smartphone, it's not something I despise, but each game has the business model most adapt to it.
One game I've played had out of the way banner ads. And then for like $2 you can get rid of them forever. The only other in game purchase was a $1 "buy me a beer" option. It's like the whole monetization was based on tipping the dev if you liked it, and you had to go *looking* for that option. It wasn't even presented as a thing you could do otherwise. No idea how much they made, but I like that route too. The other one that I'm fine with is cosmetics. Doesn't matter if mobile or PC. Just a little shop where you can dress up your whatever-it-is.
The only PuF mobile game I've bought was Star Realms, which is just a mobile version of a physical deck building card game that I like. There's no ads, ever, and I can play Star Realms on the go, at any time, from anywhere. If I don't have internet access I can only play the solo stuff but with internet access I can play against other people who also have the mobile version of the game. Beyond Star Realms, I have played a few mobile games that really did the ad thing well. One ad every 5 or 6 levels with a pretty cheap mxt to never get another ad again. Clay Jam was the best of these that I ever played, but sadly it got taken down by the dev years ago and to my knowledge has never been available again. I miss that game.
I also really like games that have a no-ads purchase in the shop, that way the ad supported version feels like a type of demo. Though I have learned to look at how deeply the ad experience is baked into a game. It's a little uncanny to be playing a game without ads hunting for the places where ads should be in order to get bonuses or even straight up progression requirements
I have played a racing game where you could choose to watch an add to double the race payout, or just redo the race. That sounded fair. Giving the choice between playing and consuming adds, to upgrade the cars. And the bonus for watching the add was not that high to feel forced to do it, as the alternative was using playtime - wich the game was ultimately about anyways.
Kingdom Rush, one of my favorite tower defense franchises, is a free-to-play mobile game (originally a browser Flash game) where you can unlock hero characters via microtransactions. I don't know the total sum of unlocking all the characters, because I bought the franchise on sale on Steam for 20 bucks up front and it came with all the characters and DLC campaigns included. I currently have 125 hours combined on their games. Pretty sure it was way cheaper than unlocking all the content one by one via microtransactions. I like it when the game devs offer multiple monetization solutions like that.
Good mobile games I've found that are little or no ads. Most square enix ports. Loved finding and playing DQ1 again. 99 bricks - tetris like 2112TD - tower defense, worth every penny, survival mode adds lots of replay value as you try to beat your best score, not easy even on normal diff Magic Research - incremental game, lots of replay value due to a variant on new game plus, has a pretty cool discord community and the sequel is being worked on. Plague Inc - very popular, not going to explain it Railbound - puzzle game, very difficult, still havent beaten every stage I Love Hue - ad optional or buyout i cant remember, lots of puzzles, you get very good at recognizing different shades and hues with enough practice Pocket city 2 - city builder Dungeon Warfare - very hard tower defense game, good luck Refactory - similar to Factorio, better on tablet because of lots of small clickies Very Little Nightmares - very fun horror/puzzle game Hopefully other people will reply and add to the list.
I think if a game were upfront and honest about their ads, then forced watching could be acceptable. Like if it told the player there will be an ad every X minutes/hours of playtime, the player could decide whether it's worth it to keep playing or not. Maybe with an option to watch an ad even earlier at a time of the player's choosing, which would reset the timer and give the player control over the precise timing of the ad. And maybe also the option to buy the game with a one-time payment and never watch an ad again.
One of my favorite mobile games to date is Hoplite. It's a really simply turn-based roguelike, that's completely free to play with minimal ads (as far as I remember). The gameplay is really solid overall. There's also an option to pay $3, no ads forever, AND it unlocks 1000+ pre-made challenge levels where you have to beat a map with a specific build. No other microtransactions period. It respects the player, and absolutely earned my $3.
I like the ftp with fairy adds that you can buy to turn off but still keep the rewards. Specially remember a magic high school game that did this perfectly
If the mobile Game forces ads on me in anyway I don't want to play it. I've found games that I've loved to play, but if you didn't watch their ads then you're losing hours of time, or they'll just make you watch an ad if you dont watch one within 5 minutes of the game.
Some advice for people that hate banner and random ads that cover the screen but like the games that have them. If the game doesn’t require internet connection you can go into your cellular settings to turn off internet for that game specifically. Airplane mode also works for when your home or don’t need internet for other stuff.
The only 2 PUF games I got on mobile are BTD6 and Slay the Spire because I play them when I'm waiting somewhere like dentist, doctor, etc. ALSO, the best ad model I have ever seen is in Stick Ranger 2. You get ads every once in a while, OR you watch a longer (30 sec ~ 1 min) ad and all the ads are removed for half an hour. Nothing else.
I remember getting a pop-up ad MID-LEVEL, MID-JUMP in Sonic Runners. That was my exit. Absolutely dealbreaking bullshit. Which was sad, because I otherwise quite loved the game's direction.
I have had a good experience with Yostar games as well. I’ve played Azur Lane since launch never spent a dime, never saw an ad. Got an occasional take a survey request in in game mail. Only pay stuff is mostly cosmetic. Exceptions are more character slots or oath rings that give a minor boost, which is only necessary for the optional PvP. And they hand out enough paid currency and rings every year to cover those of you’re frugal.
I've bought all of the games from a certain developer/studio on mobile and Steam, because I wanted to support the developer/studio, because I watch* them on TH-cam *well, I used to watch them more frequently, but haven't in a while. Interests change, life happens, don't always have the time or want to spend the time watching longer form content
The biggest thing that gets me to buy a pay upfront game on mobile, is if there's cross-platform progression. I got Bloons 6 for like a buck on sale and had a ton of fun, it has cross-platform progress and picked it up on my phone so I could do a level to or from work in public transit. I wouldn't have bought it on mobile if I didn't know it from PC and/or if it didn't have that cross-platform progression.
My Little Universe, I paid for no Ads on mobile, because I liked the gameplay, and I later bought it on Steam. I still play int occasionally on both platforms. I'm glad the game exists on both Steam and Mobile though!
1:34 Mobile Royale and Lords Mobile do that among thousands of others. At least I was able to buy free shields, but when I forgot to buy a shield once, all my troops were dead on Mobile Royale. Honestly for the better, because I quit that damn game the next day. I handed over my Lords Mobile account to a guildmate so it wouldn't be lost. Both had maxed out buildings. I wish I spent the time on making my own game instead.
The mobile version of Dungeon x Dungeon (no available) had ad traps: You'd be platforming and would encounter an add that you'd potentially hit if your platforming skills were especially weak. They were obnoxiously easy to dodge, though. All the ads were skippable (and this was back when skippable ads didn't randomly move/break the skip button), so it wasn't egregious.
I'm a bit confused about 6:46, I can't remember any ad ever showing up in that game, but him right after saying he had all the characters unlocked seems really weird. That doesn't seem possible. Personally I enjoy the mobile game option of get the game for free, with ads, but you can in game then buy the option to remove the ads. This way I can trial the game, see if I like the mechanics and then make a choice. Iirc Angry Birds did this.
It depends on what you define as "ad". He could be talking about that thing that pops up when you first open BP screen, it shows you what you get if you pay for BP, and when you first unlock it the tutorial forces you to open BP screen. So if it was his first game of that type he seen this as an AD.
It of course depends if it is possible to do that in specific game because it might as well be bad, but I think that I like more "watch ad to refill hearts" like in red ball game (if I remember correctly). So If you are skilled enough to play without dying then great, but otherwise you either wait to get hearts or watch ad. Other type of monetization is to give the player "basic" playing mode for free, but If someone likes the game then can buy ither modes. Of course it still depends on the implementation
I mostly agree with his take. pretty fair. To expand on the PUF games, there's two ways to look at it. One is that mobile players just expect to get things for free. I believe that's what he's talking about. But on the other side, the "core gamers" dabbling in mobile know that mobile is primarily a free market full of garbage. They don't want to pay money for mobile trash, so you have to convince them that you are actually trying to make a decent game worth money that just happens to be on mobile. This is me. On full screen ads, I can actually tolerate this assuming I'm not being bombarded with ads. I haven't seen this in practice, but in theory it would be okay. Bonus points for giving a fairly priced option to pay to never see ads again.
I wanna say that I like games that just let you turn off the ads. for example, in egg inc, you can just go into the settings and turn them off. it stops giving you video gifts and you can't watch an ad for a 2x boost any more. but you still get regular gifts and you can still activate the 2x boost for free, at any time and as much as you like (but it only lasts 1 hour). ...alternatively, you could pay for a subscription to remove them, which basically makes the video gifts act like regular gifts, and the 2x boost is always active. (though if you're paying just to remove the ads, it's a bit too expensive imo)
On the fairy note, Egg Inc. does it quite well, where it's one of the little circles that pops up on the right, and gives you either a proportional amount of cash, not proportional golden eggs, it's just specific values and "sizes", and recently, with their cosmetic stuff, a couple of "shells", which is the currency to buy those cosmetics. Edit: I typed this before he said Egg Inc. Great minds think alike, I guess.
With "fairy" ads the issue quite often is, that reward from watching them is smaller than you would acquire by actually playing the game during the time you spend watching the advertisement. This is as bad as forced ads, as you kind of scam player with poorly optimized reward pool.
A game I played had good optimization of that system Rogue like, you got 1 free revive a day And 1 free revive each run if you watch an ad Ads have a chance to pop up at the end of a run and double the generic loot from the run "none dailies" And then the store had a slew of ads you could watch once a day, week, month that gave varying rewards The gameplay itself was energy capped, but once again, ads The whole economy saw you only watching ads if you wanted to avoid playing the game or wanted an extra revive or extra loot
Hey how about a game that would not offer any micro transactions nor ads during the play but only charge a small entry ticket at the beginning (just like the "old times")? Would people be down for that? On a competitive game style?
Cost-Benefit analysis but the cost is the players annoyance at the monetization and the benefit is how long you can keep them before annoyance causes them to leave. WoW has been tap-dancing on that line for years.
6:47 Wait you get ads in Honkai Star Rail?!?! I feel like I'm gonna need a source for this. Is this like only on phone or something, since I have triple digits in Genshin, HSR and maybe even ZZZ, and I've never seen an ad in any of their game on pc, nor the few few times I've played them on mobile.
I was playing like 10 mobile games years ago and I gradually quit them and it's like a weight off my shoulders. They start off fun, but then they become less fun, but I kept playing because of the sunk cost fallacy even though the only cost was my time. I never spent a single cent on mobile games. The only money I spent was $20 for Pokemon TCGO codes I bought from someone else, so none of that went to a big company. And that was a PC game.
I’ve actually done that where if it’s something I enjoy playing I’ll toss them $5 to not have ads or I buy on switch when they go on sale for .50. I don’t see an ad get to play the game and minimal financial investment
Siren can be fine in a single player game, where it's really pay to progress faster but you don't have an advantage over other players. Things like a single player idle game where something takes 3 hours to craft so you can either come back in 3 hours or pay with some gems. Also if I like a game I just do pay to remove ads. I treat the ad version as a fully playable demo and the ad-free version as the paid game.
To be honest, I don't value mobile games as less then the desktop ones, I just don't like playing on mobile, it's very poor experience for me. I'm used to having a mouse and a keyboard and that's a deal breaker for me if I have to fat-finger shit on my tiny little pos device :D
Small game Disc Golf Valley is free to play and introduced ads for revenue (they were very upfront about it) They added an option to buy out of ads forever for 5.99
Most if not ALL mobile game ads require you to be connected to the Internet in some way to play, so this isn't an option for most. What you can do is set your DNS to one of the AdGuard ones, this will work if you're on Wi-Fi with no Mobile Network. You can change your Mobile Network's default DNS to one of AdGuard also, this require going into your Settings and then going to Network and Internet, or whatever it's called, and find an option for Private DNS and set the preferred DNS and you're good.
legit, some games even if their single player/have NO NEED for internet, just straight up won't work unless you have internet connections, which is complete bs, and instant uninstall for me
Maybe one good thing about apple and google being forced to allow app stores of other companies: steam coming to mobile would provide a store where people expect to pay up front and would be willing to do that.
The surprising thing for me is... Theres ads on honkai star rail? I played hoyoverse games for a long time. Admitedly not honkai star rail, mostly genshin impact (at least 500 hours in genshin impact) and I have not seen a single ad inside the game. Same when I played honkai star rail. I have legit never seen an ad on there. And I probably spent 50 hours in that game.
I have a few games where the Ads are not needed but you know sometimes there are like nice bonuses that yes given time i can have them but ads get me there faster and if i can buy the no ads pac and like it is decent price and the game is fun for me, i take that, if i cant then i would say i uninstall becaus even if game is fun, im not having fun when i need to watch adds all the time. so yea i agree, but i would add the remove adds for money button. thats fine for me also. that is respecting my time.
The only games I spend money on are boardgame adaptations that are pay once. Or puzzle games that give you some levels then you buy a level pack for the rest of the game. Again pay once... no ads.
As a game dev, I am not making phone games because I have made 4 games and sold 1 copy on Android and none on iOS. Plus they have lots of rules that take time to meet. I want to make games not fill out paperwork.
Day 1 bad mobile monetization created the 'free to play' customer market. The original thought was "ooh gameboy cellphone" but we got shitty cash grabs & went back to our systems. Whales, moms, & the Chinese took over & the mobile space was forever junk. Ppl purchase one-off apps all the time. but not so much games.
I played a bit of Honkai Starrail and didn't like how additional characters are locked behind random draws. I get that I don't need those characters to complete anything and that the game isn't inundating me with ads, but that single thing got me to walk away from the game. I don't like the idea of having to grind or purchase currency to get just a chance to unlock a character I think is cool. I'd much rather just pay a small premium to get them and not go through the random BS. If they had that and maybe have the gacha part as potentially cheaper alternative, I might have kept playing.
yeah thats the siren model at play they are trying to tempt you to spend money on IMO it can be fun cause some games have pretty decent rates/gems/rate of characters coming out that it can be pretty fun to get new characters/new options/tools all the time. but sadly alot of the top gatchas lean towards being really garbage with rates and making it stupid expensive to milk the whales. do find it interesting that thor mentioned he doesn't play those games and was ok with it in the hoyo verse games kinda curious where he draws his line with this shit sucks vs il play the crap outta this. personally hoyoverse games are kinda hard for me to play on their rates...
I'll always be pissed that Genshin would be such a great game to play for years if it wasn't for the gacha shit. Even spending about $15 monthly on the blessing and BP when I played I would have to save until there was a banner for a 5 star character I wanted to just get one copy. It essentially means you can't pull on the weapon banner and forget about the constellation mechanics for 5 stars. Not to mention the fact that a 10 pull is like $20 which is absolutely ridiculous. The world would be a better place without gacha mobile games.
The problem is, he has dismissed all but the option that generates the last amount of revenue for the dev. Pay up front? Don't install Any flavor of paying for progress? Uninstall Ads in any form other than completely optional? OK... but put don't watch them This isn't sustainable for any studio with any number of employees, it'd only support a solo dev if they were lucky enough to go viral. If you don't want P2W, or invasive ads, then pay for the game up front as you would on any other platform. Shareware needs to come back :) But any game that is free for x hours then asks for a reasonable amount of money to continue, that only the people who enjoy the game would see, would likely get review bombed because the mindset is "mobile = free" because "it's just a mobile game".
Yes and no it also that there more gamers on steam I mean I own a handful of games on steam I can see and feel was a Mobil game but I don’t own them on Mobil because i don’t like to play on Mobil so I think that has something to do with it also
Wait, Hoyo games have ads?????? i have played HI3, Genshin, HSR and ZZZ on both mobile and PC and i have not seen a single ad in any of the games (except for HI3 where there was a daily mission to watch an ad but it was like a self promoting ad that was ususally about like the newest expansion or some shit)
Slowing down your progress can't make the game worse if you're having fun with the minute to minute gameplay. If you aren't enjoying your minute to minute gameplay, STOP PLAYING. It's okay for there to be lulls and spikes, but you should still thoughtfully appreciate every part of the experience. For example, I actually like menuing. Clicking all the little squares as fast as I can or memorizing inputs to do something is satisfying to me. Things like hard swaps in Elden Ring or speedrun menuing are candy for me, but might ruin the game for someone else. That's okay! There's no universal answer to preferences. But games with microtransactions and ads will INTENTIONALLY drag out boring parts of their game and offer to let you pay to skip. This is predatory and it's abusive. At best, it means they have no confidence that their game is fun enough to command your attention normally and they have to ration out the good parts. At worst, they're actually engineering frustration and boredom, and artificially inflating your sense of enjoyment for the 'good parts', to encourage spending money on something you may not even be having good fun with. If a game has microtransactions of ANY KIND, you should be EXTREMELY critical of your entire experience, top to bottom. Or even just consider avoiding it entirely. As a reminder, EVERY SINGLE GAME can offer a free demo and sell a full price game. That model has always worked, and it will always work. Microtransactions aren't inherently bad just like gambling isn't inherently bad, but it is extremely sensitive to context, very easily toxic, and attracts abusers like gnats to wine. Don't become complacent with their tactics.
I spend more on Genshin because I don't have to. When Solo Leveling Arise came out, I was so disgusted of how they pushed so much ads that was WAY overpriced (how it felt anyway), I uninstalled within 3 days. In conclusion: Take my money Hoyoverse!
Pay a small amount to no longer get ads. It works the same as PuF, but you don't actually PuF. I like this model a lot, as I get to see if I enjoy the game before paying, and still have my time respected.
i like faerie ads for p2w items too. but in games where theres a leaderboard but no actual pvp. im going to spend 0$. but if they give me like a 1$ fun thing. why not?
The other thing to consider is platform bias. I will not play phone games or console games. I will play computer games which is why putting it on steam may get my cash where as mobile will not.
The only f2p game I've played that I spent money on to this day is Brawlhalla. I did this because it was a good game, constant updates, and the store is nothing but cosmetics.
I wonder how much people only wanting F2P games on mobile has to do with the perception and expectation that they should be, and how much repetitive sludge there is in the mobile market, that no one wants to buy a game, to get burned. What if you download a game, Free to start, and after a week or so, once they're invested, interested, comfortable, and confident in the game, say, "Hey you can unlock the rest of the game for $5." Slap on a sticker saying 5000 levels, unlimited lives, all the costumes, etc. Teach people the value in a complete experience again. You know, like shareware titles?
The model for mobile I want to see is the "pay once I know it's fun" model. If your game is fun, let me pay a small one time fee to not ever see an ad again and give me an in-game reward like some currency or whatever.
Can we get a list of good mobile games? It's so hard to find a good list and not one put together by someone who just throws new games in and calls it a list
Dark Pattern Games has a list on their website of lists of games that commit the sins listed in the video regarding monetization. They also have a not evil list. Doesn't mean the games will be good, but at least you'll know what you're getting up front.
My personal all-time favorite is a deckbuilding roguelike called "Dawncaster." It's $4.99 and it's hands-down better than every single other deckbuilder i've played. It's constantly updated by extremely active devs that understand their own game very well, and just the base game will keep you occupied for hundreds of hours if you care to let it. They frequently release massive updates that are free for everyone, and every once in a blue moon they release a paid DLC (usually 3-5 bucks) which add a r i d i c u l o u s amount of content and variety to the game. I've played 500+ hours of it and i'm still constantly learning new interactions between cards and abilities. Just for some brief comparison, using Slay the Spire as a point of comparison: StS: -4 character classes -1 basic attack type shared between all characters -3 stages before final boss -simplistic card interactions, not much depth -art is unimpressive/low quality / lack of polish -ascension difficulty scaling is implemented in an uninteresting way Dawncaster RPG: +6 character classes +8-9 unique basic weapons PER CLASS +5-6 stages before final boss, and each stage has 3 area options with vastly different experiences to offer +literally dozens of unique keyword mechanics and card interactions +base game + all DLC is worth less than StS (100% worth it btw) +more varied/nuanced ways to scale difficulty of runs +art/animations that won't make your eyes bleed and yes this post is very long but I've been scouring the mobile market for a decade and this is the only game that's stayed on every device I own since it released - go play it.
Even if it's the exact same game but on PC instead of mobile, it's not the same. One is on a tiny tablet that heats up and runs out of power and I have push notifications interrupting, the other is on PC and I can control with a keyboard and mouse and not a finger in front of what I'm clicking on, and maybe it has Steam achievements and other bits and bobs I've already got more investment in. Superior platform. You're paying for the ability to play the game on a better platform.
I think people are really losing grasp of the concept that you should expect to pay someone for something they make that you want. The fact the people are immediately turned off by paid mobile games is part of the problem. The game needs to make money somehow. If you're not willing to pay up front then that's why we get all the free to play + ads. And when you go, "The scales started to tip too far and I'm out" well they wouldn't have to be guessing what's too far if people just paid up front.
I 100% agree buying a app game for even 2.99 i just don't but the same game be on steam for 4.99 i buy it or be atleast think maybe I buy it on a app I don't even think of it i never want buy a app game i think cause I rather play with mouse or controller and my brain think phone games free
The worst are the fake fairy ones "Watch this ad and I'll give you 500g! No? Okay here's another ad anyways with no reward" Instant uninstall and 1 star review.
i'm glad i just straight up don't play mobile, because i didn't know something like this even existed, and definitely did not exist last time i played a mobile game
Whats also awful is when they offer that reward, then play another two ads anyway. My partner keeps trying to get me into playing mobile games but id rather chew through my leg than sit through that mind-numbing crap.
Or the reward just never turns up or is really hit and miss.
"You completed a level, want to watch an ad to multiply your rewards?"
"No"
"Okay, here's an ad anyway"
@@sixuk902 oh god that one pisses me off, but if I enjoy the game enough to watch an ad, (by that I mean I mute it and wait till I can skip it) and use the double reward button for my benefit for a bit. If an ad is to be played anyway, I might as well benefit from it. As much as I hate it.
The other monetization I tend to like is the kind that offer a "$5 to skip ads for life" shop option. At that point, it's functionally a $5 PUF game that you get to free trial for as long as you want before deciding to buy.
Typically, these options feel like a respectable conversation between dev and player. The dev is essentially saying "look, we're proud of our game. We want it to just be a $5 PUF, but we know that wont fly on mobile market. We're doing FTP with ad support to get you in the door because we legitimately hope you'll like it. If you want to continue free with ad support, feel free. If you decide you like what you see and choose to directly support us by making it a PUF, we'd appreciate it. Either way, we leave that as your decision to make."
Agreed, i like that solution way more, because at the end of the day it is dev respecting our time. and we will gladly support the game if it is a fun game, it comes down to that, i prefer those games wahy more than games that have banners or other ways.
that is how it should be and there are some games that have like cosmetics, and that is fine. in the end games are games, we buy them if we like them, simple as that.
I have a grand total of 2 games on my phone.
Final Fantasy Tactics, which is a great version, runs well, adapted to touch controls, etc. Bought it outright because it's just how you buy the game.
Then I have puzzle forge 2. I saw an ad supported version, tried it for 5 minutes, bought the game.
When I'm out and about, I disable mobile data. If any app needs to contact HQ for any reason, I'm out.
I treat all apps this way, even my medical prescriptions and GPS.
It's not just about how I'm paying for your game, it's about how my location and other data are not being sold.
Agreed, except most of the game's i've tried recently want between $30-$50 USD to remove ads, sometimes only for 30 days.
Kariosoft is a great example of a mobile studio that does this. I respect them for doing this and giving me a full game after. And I have followed them for 10+ years supporting the games they released like this
@@blaster915 Agreed, started to follow them and play them when the first granprix came out. and yes respect from on sticking on their masterplan.
One model I also like is based around the fairy model. I used to play a game that had the fairy model, where you could watch a 30 second ad for bonus gold or whatever, same as what Thor described, but they also had a "get rid of ads" microtransaction for like $5 or something. I enjoyed the game so decided to buy it. What that then enabled me to do was claim the ad bonuses without watching an ad.
The fairy godmother approach
Had a game where you can get a random amount of extra gold b4 shopping by watching an ad(not real currency shop, like ingame shop gameplay wise) and by buying the 5 bucks ad free thingy you could just claim it without watching the ad.... the amount of time that saved me when i played this at a very unbusy time at work.... was very worth spending the money on xD
Reminds of a merge game I used to love. The game honestly gave me a lot of joy, but was just an ad farm. every couple minutes it would pop an ad, if I chose to watch the ad for bonus reward, it would be a 30 second ad. If I said no it would still pop the ad, but give me skip option after 5 seconds. I hated that, but they had a "remove ads forever" buy option for 3 bucks and I bought it. I played it for over a month and got a lot of joy from it. Then one day it updated, now it had a maximum amount of play per day, that you had to spend money or watch ads to get increased. My no more ads purchase was voided, and the new "no more ads" option that was added was 10 bucks. I uninstalled after that.
Sometimes you have to monetize a game so that players who download, it actually play it.
In 2011, I launched a game for free. People installed it, loaded it up, played for 6 seconds, uninstalled it. Our star ratings were low on the app store. Then I slapped a £6.99 price tag on it ($9.99), only 1 other on the store had that level of price back then. All of a sudden, 5 star review, after 5 star review. Why? Because our game was something you could throw away for free but for £6.99, you had spent too much to turn it off before giving it a fair shot.
There's a story about black pearls. At the beginning, people tried to sell these things for a low price, and people didn't wanted to buy it because they thought it's just a worthless version of pearl. Then, one of the sellers went across the river and raised the price to match white pearls. Instant sale.
There is nothing better than free, but paradoxically, people values free the least.
So the phrase "no free lunch" remains, even in an era where we can definitely have free stuff, like free softwares.
what game is it?
This exact story happened with the Michelin road guides! Early on, the Michelin brothers created road guides to encourage travel and sell more tires, but gave it away for free. One of the brothers later saw the guide being used to balance a table, and realized "people will not respect that whoch does not value itself."
That's a shitty game. If people are only playing it because they feel they have to to get their money's worth, that's a shitty game.
@@Alacritous I think he meant to say that the game started off bad for most people, but after giving it a little time it'd click and you'd see why it's good.
for the upfront payment style, there's also the option of a demo, that lets you try out the start or a small part of the game.
Yeah I think this is the way. Let me play for a couple of hours without ads or annoyances, then ask me for 5 bucks, and I'll most likely hand them over.
Totally agree. I don't play mobile games, but I have played quite a lot of Fallout Shelter, and they do that 'fairy model' thing. Click a box, watch a 30-second ad, get some in-game rewards. I'm totally fine with that.
Likewise, he mentioned Honkai and ZZZ, I play both of them and Genshin Impact, and yeah, they really do respect your time. They are full, complete games, that constantly get updated, they don't throw ads in your face, and even the Gatcha systems are actually quite fair and allow you to earn plenty of the currency you need to engage with that system.
I've played _well over_ 4,000 hours in Genshin over the last 4 years and I have absolutely no problems throwing them a fiver a month for a Welkin Moon. Works out as £60 a year. Basically the price of full game every year. It's totally worth it. I didn't pay any money into the game for the first year, but I gained so much respect for what they had given us for free, that I actually _WANTED_ to support them, and I have no problem continuing to do so.
Game companies could seriously learn a lot from Hoyoverse. They do things right.
one option i didn't see him mention was the PuF subscription model where yes you pay up front but it's a recurring fee for access to a catalog of games that grows over time, i feel like it's becoming more common with apple arcade, google play pass, and netflix games.
4:57 Yeah. I once played the need for speed mobile game that had optional ads for bonuses. But it was annoying af. Because the free stuff was too small of a push. So i sat there ad farming to get more recources to progress and get new cars. Honestly i am glad i realized and dont play that game anymore. Although I really wanna collect all the cars still to this day.
As much as I personally don't play many games at all in the mobile space, I would be surprised if there were a better value proposition in the Pay Up Front model than Stardew Valley. The sheer amount of content and genuinely excellent gameplay mechanics in that game for a mere $5 is buck wild.
see that's one of the reasons I've stuck with hoyoverse, Genshin Impact specifically. Mixed feelings on Honkai but those are personal. I've had my frustrations with the gacha, but I've never once felt like my time was being abused. The game was fun, and not trying to overload me with ads. I do play it mostly on PC but even when I had it on my phone for a bit - the on-the-go was nice but MAN did it eat a chunk of space that I just didn't want to give up lol - I did not have a bad experience. Its one of the few cases where it has legitimately felt like 'game and players first' and because I enjoy the game and its characters, I'm still playing to this day, as a f2p. Odds are, once I have a steady income and don't have to worry about things, so long as their business model hasn't changed I'd be willing to drop a few bucks to support them.
lol dogshit game
I prefer the demo -> full game unlock model or the ads -> ad-free unlock. My problem with Pirate's preferred model is I don't have the level of trust necessary to presume I don't HAVE to watch the ad for my optimal experience.
I should preface this by saying that I will and have paid up front for mobile games and applications; it is my preference.
I very well could be one of the people who wouldn't buy a game on mobile, but would on Steam for $3, and at least in my case it is no fault of the developer and is a perception issue, but not exactly the one Thor mentions. For me it specifically comes down to the physical experience. Touch screen controls make me feel so disconnected that it actually reduces the overall engagement and satisfaction I get from the game. In that way a game on Steam does have more value to me than it does on mobile because I enjoy it more. When I do play games on mobile (including emulators) it's almost exclusively turn based ones where the control interface matters a little less.
Like I mentioned before, it's not the dev's fault, though I'm not entirely sure how best to remedy it. I have heard Apple has really good haptics in some of their products, and maybe that could eventually find its way into Android phones? I have carried a mini controller with me before and that makes the experience better, but it's really not ideal. I know there are gaming phones with dedicated buttons, but I don't want gaming to be the specific reason I buy a phone. I don't mind bulk on a phone, so in my mind the ideal solution would be some kind of phone case that was also a game controller. I have seen some things like that, but none that quite fit what I have in mind.
I'm with you. I have paid up front for mobile games, but I only do it for turn-based games where trying to use controls on a small touchscreen wouldn't be an issue. Steam also has the advantage of being more reliable - if I pay for a mobile game and then get a new phone, it's very up in the air as to how playable it'll be on the new device - will it run on the new device? will I have to pay for it again? Will I be able to access my saves/progress?
Of note, I bought Star Trader Frontiers on both android and PC (got it on android first, got it on PC second in order to use mods), but have never played on PC, only on android. Devs are awesome, so I don't mind that the second payment is essentially lost. And for the record, STF android fell into the camp of 'will run on new device without more payment, but all saves and progress are gone' (but there are no microtransactions, so unlocks are gameplay that I can redo)
I find it rather sad to see so many games that are just wrapped ad players. From my understanding there are a handful of bigger organizations that bulk-create these tiny games which are just for the sake of ad-revenue.
These Thor interview are so good, the synergy seems to work between the four of you. What was the game Thor mentioned, that used the fairy model? Can't seem to find it on the app store..
Egg Inc
I think tap Titans also did this
Usually idle/clicker games. They pretty much all have it.
I will always remember my first experience with mobile gaming. It was I think about 5-6 years ago from the time of this comment. It was this very enjoyable slot machine game with fantasy theme, so this parts all forest and fairies and woo I'm winning this is cool, and now this part is winter themed awesome but uhp I busted out. Game gives me a tiny bit of gold to keep playing each day.....but I enjoyed this for a first time mobile gaming. I'll go ahead and buy this 20$ game card thing, see how that works, see what I get for it.
Buy card, put it into game, got a nice big bunch of gold, went through all of it in less than an hour and back to the tiny daily amount.
I uninstalled the game and have NEVER played a mobile game since. *shrugs*
One of the better ways to do a one-time payment model for a mobile game that bypasses the aversion to pay-up-front - Pay to Unlock.
Peglin's mobile release did this. The game was free, you could download and play the Forest (floor 1). You could play, you could have fun, and you could see if you liked the game. Then, once you already had a good experience, you could say "Yeah, this is worth 10 bucks," pay inside the game, and unlock the whole thing. I think that's a fantastic consumer-friendly way to go about things, because you're saying your game is worth 10 bucks, but you're letting the public play the game first and decide for themselves, instead of putting that barrier to entry that PuF creates.
Flashback to the 90s and 00s when we still had demos and shareware releases of games. Truly miss that.
One of my favorites (Hoplite) did something very similar. Roguelike that you could play as much as you want ftp, but spend $3 and you unlock 1000+ pre-made "challenge" levels.
Alot of games on steam have demos up just before they release and even for awhile after release now. So people can decide if they want to buy the game. This also Alleviates the amount of people asking for refunds just because the game isn't to their liking.
Another similar and arguably better one is just paying to remove the ads.
Its like a demo with ads except there is no limit to what you can play, you can do the entire game for free if you wanted.
It becomes a PuF style game once you pay to remove the ads as its usually what would've cost to buy the game in the first place.
Surely I can't speak for everyone, but for some people I don't think it's really a matter of "This game is on mobile, it doesn't deserve being paid", but rather more like "It's not on mobile that I'm going to play anything worth paying for". I don't know if I'm being clear. If a game is really worth being paid for, then it also deserves to be played in a way that valorises it more, like pc or console. I don't have anything against mobile games, I just despise the smartphone as a serious console.
On a related note, I'm not paying $5 on Steam to play Tetris, that's a game that should be on smartphone for free. And I don't mean this with any negative connotation at all: I'm literally someone who is coding Tetris to publish it on smartphone, it's not something I despise, but each game has the business model most adapt to it.
One game I've played had out of the way banner ads. And then for like $2 you can get rid of them forever.
The only other in game purchase was a $1 "buy me a beer" option.
It's like the whole monetization was based on tipping the dev if you liked it, and you had to go *looking* for that option. It wasn't even presented as a thing you could do otherwise.
No idea how much they made, but I like that route too.
The other one that I'm fine with is cosmetics. Doesn't matter if mobile or PC. Just a little shop where you can dress up your whatever-it-is.
The only PuF mobile game I've bought was Star Realms, which is just a mobile version of a physical deck building card game that I like. There's no ads, ever, and I can play Star Realms on the go, at any time, from anywhere. If I don't have internet access I can only play the solo stuff but with internet access I can play against other people who also have the mobile version of the game.
Beyond Star Realms, I have played a few mobile games that really did the ad thing well. One ad every 5 or 6 levels with a pretty cheap mxt to never get another ad again. Clay Jam was the best of these that I ever played, but sadly it got taken down by the dev years ago and to my knowledge has never been available again. I miss that game.
@@jones81381 check out Dawncaster, hands down the best deck builder out there, worth 10x it's price
I also really like games that have a no-ads purchase in the shop, that way the ad supported version feels like a type of demo. Though I have learned to look at how deeply the ad experience is baked into a game. It's a little uncanny to be playing a game without ads hunting for the places where ads should be in order to get bonuses or even straight up progression requirements
I have played a racing game where you could choose to watch an add to double the race payout, or just redo the race. That sounded fair. Giving the choice between playing and consuming adds, to upgrade the cars. And the bonus for watching the add was not that high to feel forced to do it, as the alternative was using playtime - wich the game was ultimately about anyways.
This is why Path of Exile has 1800 of my dollars. Free entry, they treat me like a king so i treat them like kings in return.
Amen. GGG is GOATed and the fact that they didn't compromise those values after the TenCent acquisition? Kings
path of exile is a perfect example of perfection. Absolute 10/10 game, and its free. Has amazing MTX. They have a lot of my money too haha
Kingdom Rush, one of my favorite tower defense franchises, is a free-to-play mobile game (originally a browser Flash game) where you can unlock hero characters via microtransactions. I don't know the total sum of unlocking all the characters, because I bought the franchise on sale on Steam for 20 bucks up front and it came with all the characters and DLC campaigns included. I currently have 125 hours combined on their games. Pretty sure it was way cheaper than unlocking all the content one by one via microtransactions. I like it when the game devs offer multiple monetization solutions like that.
Good mobile games I've found that are little or no ads.
Most square enix ports. Loved finding and playing DQ1 again.
99 bricks - tetris like
2112TD - tower defense, worth every penny, survival mode adds lots of replay value as you try to beat your best score, not easy even on normal diff
Magic Research - incremental game, lots of replay value due to a variant on new game plus, has a pretty cool discord community and the sequel is being worked on.
Plague Inc - very popular, not going to explain it
Railbound - puzzle game, very difficult, still havent beaten every stage
I Love Hue - ad optional or buyout i cant remember, lots of puzzles, you get very good at recognizing different shades and hues with enough practice
Pocket city 2 - city builder
Dungeon Warfare - very hard tower defense game, good luck
Refactory - similar to Factorio, better on tablet because of lots of small clickies
Very Little Nightmares - very fun horror/puzzle game
Hopefully other people will reply and add to the list.
I think if a game were upfront and honest about their ads, then forced watching could be acceptable. Like if it told the player there will be an ad every X minutes/hours of playtime, the player could decide whether it's worth it to keep playing or not. Maybe with an option to watch an ad even earlier at a time of the player's choosing, which would reset the timer and give the player control over the precise timing of the ad. And maybe also the option to buy the game with a one-time payment and never watch an ad again.
The Sonic Forces Speed Battle Running game on mobile is doing this. That's why I'm still playing it.
It's also fun game.
One of my favorite mobile games to date is Hoplite. It's a really simply turn-based roguelike, that's completely free to play with minimal ads (as far as I remember). The gameplay is really solid overall. There's also an option to pay $3, no ads forever, AND it unlocks 1000+ pre-made challenge levels where you have to beat a map with a specific build. No other microtransactions period.
It respects the player, and absolutely earned my $3.
I like the ftp with fairy adds that you can buy to turn off but still keep the rewards. Specially remember a magic high school game that did this perfectly
You hear this You tube 💀
If the mobile Game forces ads on me in anyway I don't want to play it. I've found games that I've loved to play, but if you didn't watch their ads then you're losing hours of time, or they'll just make you watch an ad if you dont watch one within 5 minutes of the game.
Some advice for people that hate banner and random ads that cover the screen but like the games that have them. If the game doesn’t require internet connection you can go into your cellular settings to turn off internet for that game specifically. Airplane mode also works for when your home or don’t need internet for other stuff.
The only 2 PUF games I got on mobile are BTD6 and Slay the Spire because I play them when I'm waiting somewhere like dentist, doctor, etc.
ALSO, the best ad model I have ever seen is in Stick Ranger 2. You get ads every once in a while, OR you watch a longer (30 sec ~ 1 min) ad and all the ads are removed for half an hour. Nothing else.
I remember getting a pop-up ad MID-LEVEL, MID-JUMP in Sonic Runners.
That was my exit. Absolutely dealbreaking bullshit. Which was sad, because I otherwise quite loved the game's direction.
I have had a good experience with Yostar games as well. I’ve played Azur Lane since launch never spent a dime, never saw an ad. Got an occasional take a survey request in in game mail. Only pay stuff is mostly cosmetic. Exceptions are more character slots or oath rings that give a minor boost, which is only necessary for the optional PvP. And they hand out enough paid currency and rings every year to cover those of you’re frugal.
I've bought all of the games from a certain developer/studio on mobile and Steam, because I wanted to support the developer/studio, because I watch* them on TH-cam
*well, I used to watch them more frequently, but haven't in a while. Interests change, life happens, don't always have the time or want to spend the time watching longer form content
The biggest thing that gets me to buy a pay upfront game on mobile, is if there's cross-platform progression. I got Bloons 6 for like a buck on sale and had a ton of fun, it has cross-platform progress and picked it up on my phone so I could do a level to or from work in public transit. I wouldn't have bought it on mobile if I didn't know it from PC and/or if it didn't have that cross-platform progression.
My Little Universe, I paid for no Ads on mobile, because I liked the gameplay, and I later bought it on Steam. I still play int occasionally on both platforms. I'm glad the game exists on both Steam and Mobile though!
1:34 Mobile Royale and Lords Mobile do that among thousands of others. At least I was able to buy free shields, but when I forgot to buy a shield once, all my troops were dead on Mobile Royale. Honestly for the better, because I quit that damn game the next day. I handed over my Lords Mobile account to a guildmate so it wouldn't be lost. Both had maxed out buildings. I wish I spent the time on making my own game instead.
The mobile version of Dungeon x Dungeon (no available) had ad traps: You'd be platforming and would encounter an add that you'd potentially hit if your platforming skills were especially weak. They were obnoxiously easy to dodge, though. All the ads were skippable (and this was back when skippable ads didn't randomly move/break the skip button), so it wasn't egregious.
I'm a bit confused about 6:46, I can't remember any ad ever showing up in that game, but him right after saying he had all the characters unlocked seems really weird. That doesn't seem possible.
Personally I enjoy the mobile game option of get the game for free, with ads, but you can in game then buy the option to remove the ads. This way I can trial the game, see if I like the mechanics and then make a choice. Iirc Angry Birds did this.
It depends on what you define as "ad". He could be talking about that thing that pops up when you first open BP screen, it shows you what you get if you pay for BP, and when you first unlock it the tutorial forces you to open BP screen. So if it was his first game of that type he seen this as an AD.
It of course depends if it is possible to do that in specific game because it might as well be bad, but I think that I like more "watch ad to refill hearts" like in red ball game (if I remember correctly). So If you are skilled enough to play without dying then great, but otherwise you either wait to get hearts or watch ad.
Other type of monetization is to give the player "basic" playing mode for free, but If someone likes the game then can buy ither modes. Of course it still depends on the implementation
I mostly agree with his take. pretty fair.
To expand on the PUF games, there's two ways to look at it. One is that mobile players just expect to get things for free. I believe that's what he's talking about. But on the other side, the "core gamers" dabbling in mobile know that mobile is primarily a free market full of garbage. They don't want to pay money for mobile trash, so you have to convince them that you are actually trying to make a decent game worth money that just happens to be on mobile. This is me.
On full screen ads, I can actually tolerate this assuming I'm not being bombarded with ads. I haven't seen this in practice, but in theory it would be okay. Bonus points for giving a fairly priced option to pay to never see ads again.
Payed for the ace attorney trilogy on mobile a while ago. Honestly really enjoyed it.
But I couldn't imagine playing a game with adds in it.
I wanna say that I like games that just let you turn off the ads.
for example, in egg inc, you can just go into the settings and turn them off. it stops giving you video gifts and you can't watch an ad for a 2x boost any more. but you still get regular gifts and you can still activate the 2x boost for free, at any time and as much as you like (but it only lasts 1 hour).
...alternatively, you could pay for a subscription to remove them, which basically makes the video gifts act like regular gifts, and the 2x boost is always active. (though if you're paying just to remove the ads, it's a bit too expensive imo)
On the fairy note, Egg Inc. does it quite well, where it's one of the little circles that pops up on the right, and gives you either a proportional amount of cash, not proportional golden eggs, it's just specific values and "sizes", and recently, with their cosmetic stuff, a couple of "shells", which is the currency to buy those cosmetics.
Edit: I typed this before he said Egg Inc. Great minds think alike, I guess.
I'm fine with the banner ad tbh
With "fairy" ads the issue quite often is, that reward from watching them is smaller than you would acquire by actually playing the game during the time you spend watching the advertisement.
This is as bad as forced ads, as you kind of scam player with poorly optimized reward pool.
I guess once you realise that though, you'll just say no to all the ads, which feeds back that they're not giving enough reward for your time, right?
You can click it whenever you decide to take a rest from playing.
A game I played had good optimization of that system
Rogue like, you got 1 free revive a day
And 1 free revive each run if you watch an ad
Ads have a chance to pop up at the end of a run and double the generic loot from the run "none dailies"
And then the store had a slew of ads you could watch once a day, week, month that gave varying rewards
The gameplay itself was energy capped, but once again, ads
The whole economy saw you only watching ads if you wanted to avoid playing the game or wanted an extra revive or extra loot
Sometimes. Often you double the reward of a 5 minute run with a 30 second ad.
I agree but finding such a game is just too hard.
Hey how about a game that would not offer any micro transactions nor ads during the play but only charge a small entry ticket at the beginning (just like the "old times")?
Would people be down for that? On a competitive game style?
Cost-Benefit analysis but the cost is the players annoyance at the monetization and the benefit is how long you can keep them before annoyance causes them to leave. WoW has been tap-dancing on that line for years.
6:47 Wait you get ads in Honkai Star Rail?!?! I feel like I'm gonna need a source for this. Is this like only on phone or something, since I have triple digits in Genshin, HSR and maybe even ZZZ, and I've never seen an ad in any of their game on pc, nor the few few times I've played them on mobile.
I was playing like 10 mobile games years ago and I gradually quit them and it's like a weight off my shoulders. They start off fun, but then they become less fun, but I kept playing because of the sunk cost fallacy even though the only cost was my time. I never spent a single cent on mobile games. The only money I spent was $20 for Pokemon TCGO codes I bought from someone else, so none of that went to a big company. And that was a PC game.
I’ll gladly pay for most games if they are quality. But yes most people don’t see it that way which is sad.
I’ve actually done that where if it’s something I enjoy playing I’ll toss them $5 to not have ads or I buy on switch when they go on sale for .50. I don’t see an ad get to play the game and minimal financial investment
Siren can be fine in a single player game, where it's really pay to progress faster but you don't have an advantage over other players.
Things like a single player idle game where something takes 3 hours to craft so you can either come back in 3 hours or pay with some gems.
Also if I like a game I just do pay to remove ads. I treat the ad version as a fully playable demo and the ad-free version as the paid game.
To be honest, I don't value mobile games as less then the desktop ones, I just don't like playing on mobile, it's very poor experience for me. I'm used to having a mouse and a keyboard and that's a deal breaker for me if I have to fat-finger shit on my tiny little pos device :D
So. The experience is poorer. You value your time less on a mobile game. But you don’t value mobile games less than desktop ones?
Gotta love that Freemium Gaming! /s
Small game Disc Golf Valley is free to play and introduced ads for revenue (they were very upfront about it) They added an option to buy out of ads forever for 5.99
Is there a way to identify fairy-ad games? would it be possible to have developers add the ad type as a search filter tag?
Play in airplane mode and if the game can't run on this mode don't play it.
i use an app called blokada. it blocks gameads and the games run noticably faster because they Don't have to load all that nonesense.
Most if not ALL mobile game ads require you to be connected to the Internet in some way to play, so this isn't an option for most. What you can do is set your DNS to one of the AdGuard ones, this will work if you're on Wi-Fi with no Mobile Network. You can change your Mobile Network's default DNS to one of AdGuard also, this require going into your Settings and then going to Network and Internet, or whatever it's called, and find an option for Private DNS and set the preferred DNS and you're good.
A lot of games have ads pre-downloaded these days for that reason.
Idk if this works in iOS or not but on Android you can just cut off the apps access to the internet
legit, some games even if their single player/have NO NEED for internet, just straight up won't work unless you have internet connections, which is complete bs, and instant uninstall for me
Maybe one good thing about apple and google being forced to allow app stores of other companies: steam coming to mobile would provide a store where people expect to pay up front and would be willing to do that.
what about the games that give you prologue/first 10 levels and then unlock access to full game + no ads?
The surprising thing for me is... Theres ads on honkai star rail? I played hoyoverse games for a long time. Admitedly not honkai star rail, mostly genshin impact (at least 500 hours in genshin impact) and I have not seen a single ad inside the game. Same when I played honkai star rail. I have legit never seen an ad on there. And I probably spent 50 hours in that game.
I have a few games where the Ads are not needed but you know sometimes there are like nice bonuses that yes given time i can have them but ads get me there faster and if i can buy the no ads pac and like it is decent price and the game is fun for me, i take that, if i cant then i would say i uninstall becaus even if game is fun, im not having fun when i need to watch adds all the time. so yea i agree, but i would add the remove adds for money button. thats fine for me also. that is respecting my time.
The only games I spend money on are boardgame adaptations that are pay once. Or puzzle games that give you some levels then you buy a level pack for the rest of the game. Again pay once... no ads.
As a game dev, I am not making phone games because I have made 4 games and sold 1 copy on Android and none on iOS. Plus they have lots of rules that take time to meet. I want to make games not fill out paperwork.
Day 1 bad mobile monetization created the 'free to play' customer market. The original thought was "ooh gameboy cellphone" but we got shitty cash grabs & went back to our systems.
Whales, moms, & the Chinese took over & the mobile space was forever junk.
Ppl purchase one-off apps all the time. but not so much games.
I played a bit of Honkai Starrail and didn't like how additional characters are locked behind random draws. I get that I don't need those characters to complete anything and that the game isn't inundating me with ads, but that single thing got me to walk away from the game. I don't like the idea of having to grind or purchase currency to get just a chance to unlock a character I think is cool. I'd much rather just pay a small premium to get them and not go through the random BS. If they had that and maybe have the gacha part as potentially cheaper alternative, I might have kept playing.
yeah thats the siren model at play they are trying to tempt you to spend money on
IMO it can be fun cause some games have pretty decent rates/gems/rate of characters coming out that it can be pretty fun to get new characters/new options/tools all the time. but sadly alot of the top gatchas lean towards being really garbage with rates and making it stupid expensive to milk the whales.
do find it interesting that thor mentioned he doesn't play those games and was ok with it in the hoyo verse games kinda curious where he draws his line with this shit sucks vs il play the crap outta this. personally hoyoverse games are kinda hard for me to play on their rates...
I'll always be pissed that Genshin would be such a great game to play for years if it wasn't for the gacha shit. Even spending about $15 monthly on the blessing and BP when I played I would have to save until there was a banner for a 5 star character I wanted to just get one copy. It essentially means you can't pull on the weapon banner and forget about the constellation mechanics for 5 stars. Not to mention the fact that a 10 pull is like $20 which is absolutely ridiculous. The world would be a better place without gacha mobile games.
Back in the day I paid $20 upfront for Final Fantasy Dimensions. It was 100% worth it.
The problem is, he has dismissed all but the option that generates the last amount of revenue for the dev.
Pay up front? Don't install
Any flavor of paying for progress? Uninstall
Ads in any form other than completely optional? OK... but put don't watch them
This isn't sustainable for any studio with any number of employees, it'd only support a solo dev if they were lucky enough to go viral.
If you don't want P2W, or invasive ads, then pay for the game up front as you would on any other platform.
Shareware needs to come back :) But any game that is free for x hours then asks for a reasonable amount of money to continue, that only the people who enjoy the game would see, would likely get review bombed because the mindset is "mobile = free" because "it's just a mobile game".
Yes and no it also that there more gamers on steam I mean I own a handful of games on steam I can see and feel was a Mobil game but I don’t own them on Mobil because i don’t like to play on Mobil so I think that has something to do with it also
Don't be showing me a 30 second ad when I'm taking a dump. You're wasting my life.
Wait, Hoyo games have ads?????? i have played HI3, Genshin, HSR and ZZZ on both mobile and PC and i have not seen a single ad in any of the games (except for HI3 where there was a daily mission to watch an ad but it was like a self promoting ad that was ususally about like the newest expansion or some shit)
I use a DNS on my phone that is designed to block ads, both on browser and in mobile game apps
Slowing down your progress can't make the game worse if you're having fun with the minute to minute gameplay. If you aren't enjoying your minute to minute gameplay, STOP PLAYING. It's okay for there to be lulls and spikes, but you should still thoughtfully appreciate every part of the experience. For example, I actually like menuing. Clicking all the little squares as fast as I can or memorizing inputs to do something is satisfying to me. Things like hard swaps in Elden Ring or speedrun menuing are candy for me, but might ruin the game for someone else. That's okay! There's no universal answer to preferences.
But games with microtransactions and ads will INTENTIONALLY drag out boring parts of their game and offer to let you pay to skip. This is predatory and it's abusive. At best, it means they have no confidence that their game is fun enough to command your attention normally and they have to ration out the good parts. At worst, they're actually engineering frustration and boredom, and artificially inflating your sense of enjoyment for the 'good parts', to encourage spending money on something you may not even be having good fun with.
If a game has microtransactions of ANY KIND, you should be EXTREMELY critical of your entire experience, top to bottom. Or even just consider avoiding it entirely. As a reminder, EVERY SINGLE GAME can offer a free demo and sell a full price game. That model has always worked, and it will always work. Microtransactions aren't inherently bad just like gambling isn't inherently bad, but it is extremely sensitive to context, very easily toxic, and attracts abusers like gnats to wine. Don't become complacent with their tactics.
I spend more on Genshin because I don't have to. When Solo Leveling Arise came out, I was so disgusted of how they pushed so much ads that was WAY overpriced (how it felt anyway), I uninstalled within 3 days.
In conclusion: Take my money Hoyoverse!
How does this channel only have less than 3k subs?
Pay a small amount to no longer get ads. It works the same as PuF, but you don't actually PuF. I like this model a lot, as I get to see if I enjoy the game before paying, and still have my time respected.
Great hearing people say how good Hoyoverse games are. ♥
i like faerie ads for p2w items too. but in games where theres a leaderboard but no actual pvp. im going to spend 0$. but if they give me like a 1$ fun thing. why not?
What if after half an hour of play you are given a choice of paying a modest amount to not watch ad, or watch ads. (The first ad isfor removing ads.)
The other thing to consider is platform bias. I will not play phone games or console games. I will play computer games which is why putting it on steam may get my cash where as mobile will not.
$3 mobile game: "Do you think I'm Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos?"
$3 Steam game: "That's a bargain!"
The only f2p game I've played that I spent money on to this day is Brawlhalla. I did this because it was a good game, constant updates, and the store is nothing but cosmetics.
I like fairy ads also. Games hold me longer when they have those.
My favorite model is "Pay us 15 bucks up-front to get rid of ads forever"
What drove me nuts was buying a game up front, only to install it again a year later and find it turned into an ad riddled mess
I wonder how much people only wanting F2P games on mobile has to do with the perception and expectation that they should be, and how much repetitive sludge there is in the mobile market, that no one wants to buy a game, to get burned.
What if you download a game, Free to start, and after a week or so, once they're invested, interested, comfortable, and confident in the game, say, "Hey you can unlock the rest of the game for $5." Slap on a sticker saying 5000 levels, unlimited lives, all the costumes, etc. Teach people the value in a complete experience again. You know, like shareware titles?
The model for mobile I want to see is the "pay once I know it's fun" model. If your game is fun, let me pay a small one time fee to not ever see an ad again and give me an in-game reward like some currency or whatever.
I play the ad and set my phone down. It is like Thor is in my head.
Why not buy games with an upfront price, assuming the price is fair off course. What’s the issue there?
Can we get a list of good mobile games? It's so hard to find a good list and not one put together by someone who just throws new games in and calls it a list
Dark Pattern Games has a list on their website of lists of games that commit the sins listed in the video regarding monetization. They also have a not evil list. Doesn't mean the games will be good, but at least you'll know what you're getting up front.
My personal all-time favorite is a deckbuilding roguelike called "Dawncaster." It's $4.99 and it's hands-down better than every single other deckbuilder i've played. It's constantly updated by extremely active devs that understand their own game very well, and just the base game will keep you occupied for hundreds of hours if you care to let it. They frequently release massive updates that are free for everyone, and every once in a blue moon they release a paid DLC (usually 3-5 bucks) which add a r i d i c u l o u s amount of content and variety to the game. I've played 500+ hours of it and i'm still constantly learning new interactions between cards and abilities.
Just for some brief comparison, using Slay the Spire as a point of comparison:
StS:
-4 character classes
-1 basic attack type shared between all characters
-3 stages before final boss
-simplistic card interactions, not much depth
-art is unimpressive/low quality / lack of polish
-ascension difficulty scaling is implemented in an uninteresting way
Dawncaster RPG:
+6 character classes
+8-9 unique basic weapons PER CLASS
+5-6 stages before final boss, and each stage has 3 area options with vastly different experiences to offer
+literally dozens of unique keyword mechanics and card interactions
+base game + all DLC is worth less than StS (100% worth it btw)
+more varied/nuanced ways to scale difficulty of runs
+art/animations that won't make your eyes bleed
and yes this post is very long but I've been scouring the mobile market for a decade and this is the only game that's stayed on every device I own since it released - go play it.
I didn't see this or I would have commented here instead of making my own comment thread. Check the other comments and you'll find my list.
Even if it's the exact same game but on PC instead of mobile, it's not the same. One is on a tiny tablet that heats up and runs out of power and I have push notifications interrupting, the other is on PC and I can control with a keyboard and mouse and not a finger in front of what I'm clicking on, and maybe it has Steam achievements and other bits and bobs I've already got more investment in.
Superior platform. You're paying for the ability to play the game on a better platform.
I think people are really losing grasp of the concept that you should expect to pay someone for something they make that you want.
The fact the people are immediately turned off by paid mobile games is part of the problem. The game needs to make money somehow. If you're not willing to pay up front then that's why we get all the free to play + ads. And when you go, "The scales started to tip too far and I'm out" well they wouldn't have to be guessing what's too far if people just paid up front.
governor of pocker?
I 100% agree buying a app game for even 2.99 i just don't but the same game be on steam for 4.99 i buy it or be atleast think maybe I buy it on a app I don't even think of it i never want buy a app game i think cause I rather play with mouse or controller and my brain think phone games free
Be like supercell
What is the game he mentioned? A-gank?
egg inc? I think?
I'd also say that, pay2win is out of the door and that's ok but payforcosmetic would be ok as long as it does not affect the game