The Trade That Created Two Dynasties
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- The trade of Frank Robinson from the Reds to the Orioles for Milt Pappas is often regarded as one of the most imbalanced trades in baseball history, especially as Frank Robinson went on to win the triple crown, an MVP, and help the Orioles win four pennants and two World Series. But in the long run for the Reds this helped set up the pieces for the Big Red Machine teams in the 70s as Bob Hawsam became GM and traded for the likes of Joe Morgan and George Foster.
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The trade had zipshit to do with any Reds dynasty.
"But then again, bad trades are a part of baseball. Who can forget Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas, for God's sake?"
--Annie Savoy, "Bull Durham"
Milt Pappas actually had a winning record for the Reds, and he was a decent pitcher. But the Reds lost way more than they gained in Pappas; Dick Simpson and Jack Baldschun, who came with Pappas in that trade, were gone almost as soon as they got to the Reds. But Milt Pappas was traded away for relief ace Clay Carroll.
It’s interesting that the two additional players that came along with Frank Robinson in the big trade never played with the Orioles. Jack Baldschun, who was one of the better N. L. relief pitchers with the Phillies, was acquired by the Orioles after the 1965 season. Dick Simpson, a promising young outfielder with the Angels, was also acquired by the Orioles after the 1965 season.
A bit of a stretch. It's like saying that the Green Bay Packers drafting Tony Mandarich instead of Barry Sanders, Deion Sanders or Derrick Thomas was a great move, because it led to them replacing their GM with Ron Wolf, which led to trade for Brett Favre. A great rebound from a f-up doesn't excuse the f-up.
Thanks, pal. Old geezer here who’s been around for all of this. You had me laughing to the point of tears. 😉👍
The trade with the Astros that brought Joe Morgan & others over was the more important trade. Morgan was MVP caliber for years.
@@mikehalkides7044 Yeah, when I clicked on this video, I was kind of expecting a direct link to this trade, (beyond just firing a GM and hiring the guy who made it.)
And for a lesser example, there was someone who argued that the bad Buhner trade indirectly led to the Yankees getting Paul O'Neill. Even if true it was still a terrible trade that set the stage for the late '80s collapse that turned the team into a laughingstock until their owner got suspended.
"Somewhat" of a correlation to the Reds and Orioles with Frank Robinson. I would also like to add that in my opinion the 1970 Orioles and the 1976 Reds were probably the best MLB teams in the history of baseball. I know a lot of people talk about the 27’ Yankees, but that was before my time or my fathers, or grandfathers time. My father saw the 70’s Orioles & 76 Big Red Machine team and everything up until this date. I evaluate them based on offense, pitching and defense.
These are the facts: 1970 Orioles- they had 3 MVPs (Frank Robinson, Brooks Robinson, Boog Powell, 70’ MVP). 3 Hall of Fame players (F. Robinson, B. Robinson and Palmer, Swept the Twins who had at least 4 HOF, and almost swept the Reds if not for L. May’s 8th inning home run in game 4, (won in 5 games). HOF Manager Weaver
Offense: Orioles ranked 1st in AB, R, BB, OBP in the AL. They had 7 All Stars that year in 1970.
Defense: Orioles ranked 2nd in Fielding %, and E in the AL. Gold GLoves 3B Robinson had 16 GG, CF Paul Blair 8 GG, SS Mark Belanger 8 GG, 2B Davey Johnson 3 GG, There were 3 Gold Glove winners that year for the Orioles.
Pitching: Orioles had 3 pitchers that won 20 games that year in 1970. 2 CY Young Winners (Jim Palmer, Mike Cuellar, Dave McNally). Orioles ranked 1st in Wins, ERA, ER CG in the AL. Palmer had 4 Gold Gloves too. Greatest defensive 3B ever Robinson
Reds 1976: They swept the Phillies and the Yankees in the postseason. Should have 4 Hall of Famers in the infield: (Bench, Rose, Morgan and Perez). 6 MVPs in the decade Bench 70’,72’, Morgan 75’, 76, Rose 73, Foster 77. HOF manager Sparky
Offense: Reds ranked 1st in the NL in R, H, HR, 2B, 3B, BB, SB, AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS,TB. 7 All Stars on the Reds in 1976 (including Griffey Sr., Rose, Bench, Morgan, Perez, Concepcion, Foster)
Defense: 1976 Reds ranked 1st in Fielding % and E committed, Reds had 4 Gold Glovers (Bench, Morgan,Concepción, Geronimo (Bench 10 GG, Morgan 5 GG, Geronimo 4 GG, Concepcion 5 GG), strong up the middle.
Pitching: Reds had 7 pitchers that had double digit wins. 1st in Wins, 1st in Saves, lastly great catcher ever: Bench
My other great team is the Toronto Blue Jays of 1993, as they won 2 WS like the Reds and that Orioles team.
I duuno, several commenters have already used the term stretch, I'll use fallacy. The dots really aren't there, not on the Reds side of things. What the trade did was make Baltimore a great team. Robinson was a S-T-U-D stud. I hated those Oriole teams of the late 60s and early 70s because outside of 67-68 they owned my Tigers. But the Reds did give us Sparky, and he won a Series with the Tigers, becoming the first manager to win a Series in both leagues, beating out the Padres manager Dick Williams in that 1984 WS for that honor. Frank, Boog, Brooks, and those starting pitchers, that was a helluva team.
The Reds trading Frank Robinson ranks alongside the Red Sox trading Babe Ruth, the Mets trading Nolan Ryan, and the Dodgers trading Frank Howard as the worst in baseball history.
Cubs trading Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio was pretty bad. I think Paul Toth was involved in that deal.
Babe ruth was trading because he kept hitting the owner up for money and would sit out games. Boston owner tired of ruth shake down tactics and got 100k for him. Owner got rid of a major pain in the azz. That's what really happened.
Narrator says "may be a stretch to give credit for this trade to give it credit for the Reds success later on " . I would call that a lie not a stretch.
Not to quibble, but the Reds GM was Bob HOW-sam, not HAW-sam. And it's not Pedro Boren, it's Pedro Bor-BONE. Checking on how to pronounce the names in advance will help you when you make your next video.
The Reds had a dynasty DESPITE that bad trade, not because of it at all. But in 1971, they got George Foster from the Giants for Vern Geishert and Frank Duffy. Foster was key in the in the 1975-76 World Championship years, plus he had three straight rbi crowns and two straight home run crowns, not to mention a league MVP award in 1977.
This video is definitely a bit of a stretch. It's obvious that all Robinson did was affect the Orioles. If anything, the Red Machine is a completely separate entity from the Robinson Reds.
Great historical video! After my arrival in early 1969, I saw one of the biggest upsets when the Mets beat the Robinsons and the Orioles. Simply 2 dynasties who only clashed in 1970. So many players from that era are now in the hall of fame
You saw the 1969 Word Series even though you were born in 1969 ? Lololol
@@richarddean6735 old enough 😆
@@richarddean6735 arrived ✈ from Cuba as a teen.
The worst trade in Reds history was Christy Mathewson for Amos Rusie.
fantastic video, keep it up
Nice Job and research . Correction - Frank was arrested in Cincinnati not in Florida . Bill DeWitt didnt like Pete Rose hanging around Frank and Vada Pinson , Pete was called into the GMs Office in 1963 . Bob Howsam was a great GM ; he would of gotten more for Frank Robinson from Baltimore if he would of been GM , he is on record saying that . Bill Dumwitt wanted Robby gone at any price . Dick Simspon was a total bust !! he hit 4 homers in 66 vs 49 Homers by Frank . Pappas hated Cincinnati and missed Baltimore - he was booed constantly in Cincy. Reds finally retired Frank Robinson number 20 in 1998 . 23 years later after the trade .
"Would've" or "would have", not "would of".
one of the worst, if not THE worst, moves the Reds ever made. I will never understand why they thought he was past his peak and in decline. Frank went to the Orioles and made the Reds front office look very stupid.
Plus it made you wonder if the trade could have made the difference in the 1970 WS.
Milt Pappas brings back memories. A good-hitting pitcher who pitched a no-hitter for the Cubs.
Most of the key players in the BRM (version 1) came up through the Reds' farm system: Rose, Perez, Bench, Helms Carbo and Concepcion all came up from their minor league teams. Griffey was also a product of the farm system, but didn't come up till 1973, iirc. 6 of them were also part of the later, better version of the BRM, along with Joe Morgan, Jack Billingham, Denis Menke, Cesar Geronimo, and others. I don't think the Robinson trade helped the Reds at all, and I know it broke my heart when it happened. The other big trade that created version 2 was the George Foster trade in 1971. All DeWitt did was make a fool of himself.
This is like saying Casey Stengel breaking his hip lead to the Mets hiring Gil Hodges and winning in 69
That's pair, golden eras for pair, franchises
Red Legs ? It was 1956 , not 1856….
They were re-branded the Redlegs in the 50's to prevent linking them to communists in the 50's.
They were the "Red Legs" through much or all of the 50's. I think they reverted back to the "Reds" in 1960, their name since team's founding in 1876. The change was because of anti-communist hysteria in the US during that time.
What's so impressive about Robinson is that he won the triple crown in his first year in the American League of which he had no experience or knowledge of... Most players struggle their first year in the new league
if pete didn`t do fanduel lol
No , he did Draft Kings !....LOL
The 1 all-star who was in the Reds when the late Frank Robinson before the trade and in the 1970 Reds is Pete Rose. He hated that the other Robinson was the hero: great defense and the power 🔋 bat. Maybe the Reds would have win the 1970 World 🌎 Series if Frank was never traded!
But, the Reds lost to my Oakland Athletics in 1972 and the Orioles were eliminated by them in 1973 and in 1974.
Aside. I wonder if you know of any video detailing tbe trade that lasted 24 years? That is the Bobby Bonds trade. I come across that in a San Francisco Chrinicle back in the 1990s.
Howsam is not pronounced Hahsum. It is HOW-sum
"Expecteded"
The 70 World Series showed the reds Why Pappas was a bust out of Baltimore. DEFENSE
Reds Went defense w/Morgan, Geronimo and Menke. moving Perez to first for the departed May.
The Reds were a mini dynasty only 2 World Series wins 1975 and 1976 10 years after the trade
That’s a Big stretch but maybe the Big Red Machine was just God throwing us a bone. 🤣🤣🤣
even though a very one-sided trade, Milt Papas was a very solid pitcher for both the Reds and the Cubs. had some very strange stuff happen in his life after baseball, too.
Pappas is the only 200- game winner who never won 20 games in a season.
@@kevinmadden1645 didn’t realize that thank you!
@@kevinmadden1645 Pappas was the first, but there have been 9 more since then. Rather than list them, it's probably more fun to make a game of it and let people guess. (Honor system, don't look it up and then post.)
The man had a leather ass in both leagues!
Howsam, not Hossum.
Sounds like an attempt to justify a terrible trade.
Worst trade in baseball history. Period.
Rockies world champions 😂😂😂
Orioles dynasty? When did that happen
1966 to 1983. They won 6 pennants and 3 world series as well as many division titles.
Decent question, they won in 1966, lost the WS in 1969 to the Mets, Won in 1970, lost in 1971 to the Pirates. They were 2-2 like the Reds were 2-2 in WS. I would say in 6 years they went to 4 WS and won 2 of them. Great team, as the A's would finally beat them and then the A's won 3 straight in the 70's. It was like the Bulls finally beating the Pistons. Sort of a mini dynasty.
@@flame-sky7148 Orioles also went to the 1979 World Series , only to be beaten again by the " we are family " Pirates .
@@robertd.7060 correct, both went to Game 7s. Clemente and then Stargell. My mothers side of my family is from Pittsburgh, so they followed it very closely, because they were there. But the 70s had three teams that won two titles, Reds, Pirates, Yankees, BUT Oakland won 3 titles. So I would say the A’s had more of a dynasty.
Narration presupposes too much insider knowledge (of acronyms and baseball minutia). Monotone voice.
👎
This is a complete crock.
Frank Robinson is the only player in MLB history to win the MVP award in both leagues. That will never happen again.
I’m pretty sure Shohei or Mookie will be the next very soon
Mookie Betts should have done it in 2020, I thought he was robbed in my opinion. But Freeman is so good too. Kudos for him.
@@flame-sky7148 Freddie Freeman has been on fire the last few years. Surprised he didn’t get 60 doubles last season. He had 59.
@@johndeangelis8424 Shohei Ohtani has a very great chance of becoming the second ever player to win the MVP award in both leagues.
@@joememphis1571 yea Freeman is a future HOFer and if he continues, 3K hit club. Saw him in person a few times. No lie, I spoke to him in a Sandy Springs Ga Starbucks. Nobody knew who he was but me. He had his glasses on. I told him good luck tonight ( because the Braves were playing that night). He said he appreciated it as he left. I mean how have times have changed. If that had been the 80s and Dale Murphy,, he probably would have had to sign a bunch of autographs. Not now. LOL but I’ve seen Freeman play three times with the Braves. And yea he’s on fire now more than ever.
He wreak the cleveland indians as a manager of Cleveland got perry traded and wreak the.team