Fun fact: The variable that Ian mentioned of the brightness of the sun changing how hot the metal "looked" was actually already known and worked around by medieval swordsmiths (especially the Viking/Saxon ones) by creating a forge that was inside a small building with no windows (no outside light meant no variation in how the metal looked when it got hot). It's amazing how many lessons have been learned, forgotten, and then relearned throughout history (sometimes, that cycle is even gone through multiple times).
Hey mommy mommy can I see you you today today I have have a a a a little little bit of a a a little little bit of a a little little bit bit of of a a little little little little little bit of a w
I offer my sincere and earnest apologies to the M1941 Johnson Rifle Bayonet. I was wrong to believe that you were the daintiest and most half-assed attempt at a bayonet in American military history, I am sorry.
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If this is my Johnson and this is my rifle, where's my gun then?
well they might use their rapid fire abilities too fast and we can't have that. Never mind that volume of fire often is more effective than marginally more accurate fire.
Because at the time, they believed that volley fire was the way to fight. We know it wasn't, but they didn't know that yet. It wasn't until WWII that soldiers were firing at their own discretion.
Hemimike426 Already happening, the Russians still like to use entrenching tools to beat their enemies to death, in fact, they did it since at least WWII.
A long reaching pointy stick will always have a place in battle. The brits made use of bayonet charge to great effect in the falklands, there where also cases in Afghanistan and such.
Speaking of bayonets and how this channel is forgotten weapons rather than forgotten firearms would it be possible to see some of the bayonets being sold? I've always been a fan of the old sword bayonets. edit: I get the feeling I might've asked this before, I apologise if so.
Modern M9 bayonets that are modular; with replaceable parts are another absurd idea. Who on Earth signed off on those and how much did they get paid under the table? Compare their strenght to any 20th century Mauser full tang bayonet.
A guy I know who is very experienced with 20th Century US Military firearms found a original unaltered ram-rod 1903 at a gun shop for $800. He held on to it for about 10 years and finally sold it for around $30,000. These are not cheapies.
@@gcart7675 the 1903 springfield is not a super rare gun, but the ramrods are very rare. it's a piece of history and many would pay millions for something others can't have, so i'm not sure he really suckered someone. just found the right buyer.
Vsucc no its still suckering them cause only people who think like that would buy something like that and pay that price for it when you could literally make your own yeah it wouldnt be real but like i said only the people whod buy it cause they think that way would pay that for it for that reason
I'm watching this for a history assignment, we got to pick what our final presentation was about I picked the US military from 1900-1945. Thank you Ian for being my main source for firearms and helping me through my Junior year of Highschool with this project.
Many years ago, Teddy Roosevelt’s letter was on display at the Springfield Arsenal museum, in a frame over a nice example of an early 1903. Just last year, I visited the museum and found that it was vastly reduced and the letter was nowhere to be found. The organ of civil war muskets was also gone! 😢
A proper bayonet should also be a good knife. A good knife is never going to be obsolete because it is just too useful as a tool, if not as a weapon. The last ditch/psychological effect of the Bayonet is certainly something that shouldn't be overlooked as well.
No kidding! I was actually linked here from the video on the M1915 Bolo Bayonet, and I'm surprised that the US didn't make a couple million of those for the trenches after we arrived, what with all the 'interesting' blades that did get made.
@@anzaca1 I don't agree with your assessment. While you won't be defeating ballistic plate with a knife, you really don't have to. There are still all the soft spots between plates that knives can easily be put through. Small wounds, especially on a human leg, which is typically not armored can and will cause a very painful death quite easily.
Thanks for explaining the patent issues with Mauser and DWM. I used to think it was more of a "stupid Americans copying the Mauser and thinking they can get away with it" case. Now, I know it's not the case :) Thank you Ian, keep up the great work!
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If you legitimately thought that and saw absolutely no problem blaming it on "stupid Americans" then you're an asshole.
Hatcher also said that it was common practice for troopers to 'grease' their cartridges. This dramatically increased pressure on the bolt face. Hatcher's preferred fix (which was not implemented by the Army) was to drill a vent hole in the side of the receiver. This "Hatcher Hole" was only adopted by the Marines. The hole would relieve pressure and allow even a brittle receiver to survive a failed case.
i fire my 1910 springfield often, but my compromise to the possibility of a brittle reciever i only shoot M1919 gallery loads. its accurate with very little recoil. i dont like to own guns i cant shoot.
I keep my two unshootable guns around just as reminders to always research and do a thorough inspection of any gun you buy. I never want a bolt exploding or being a single shot away from exploding on me again.
6:21 For anyone wondering, DWM stand for Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken, which I first learned of when watching Tales Of The Gun on the History channel
Even as far back as the late 18th Century, it was accepted by officers who had actually conducted bayonet charges, the *primary* point of the bayonet is not to actually stab guys who stand and fight - it is to cause the line being charged to break in fear, making it easier to shoot or stab them in the back. Likewise, the intimidation factor made them quite well suited for riot or prisoner control. The perfect bayonet engagement is one where your guys still have clean bayonets at the end. Which means the key points to effective bayonet employment are: 1. A credible stabby bit. It doesn't have to be *great*, merely *credible*. Which means that it only makes sense to make them multi-purpose, so long as you don't compromise the credibility of them as a bayonet. So, trowel and field knife bayonets make sense, while rod bayonets do not. 2. The bayonet should be *visible*, meaning that blue or parkerized bayonets are a bad idea, because if the enemy can't tell you have mounted a bayonet, the fear factor can't kick in. They don't have to be mirror bright, but they should be something that contrasts with the rifle. Matte white works. 3. The troops holding the bayoneted rifles must look competent,confident, and aggressive. So, while the bayonet training doesn't have to be terribly involved, it still has to be good enough that the troops look like what they are doing, are confident they know what they are doing, and are actually good enough to be able to stand up to the skills of their likely opponents.
Hey, a cleaning rod can be really deadly too! Not in actual hand-to-hand combat though. I've heard an interesting story from some troops that fought in Chechnya, where Russian spec ops would sneak up on sleeping sentries and what not and kill them by driving their standard AK cleaning rod through the poor guys' ears. Apparently that was really quick, quiet and clean. (Yeah, I know, this is completely irrelevant. Interesting story though, IMO)
Deciding that the bayonet was no longer required for a battle rifle is like sending F4 Phantoms to Vietnam without a gun, having decided that fighters no longer needed a gun. OOOPS!
Well, they expected that future conflicts would be against the USSR, and the Phantom was optimised for shooting down bombers/fighters similar to itself. And they learned during the war, bringing in gun pods, then an integrated gun.
@@anzaca1 Both mistakes, the bayonet and the Phantom' missing gun, were made for the same reasons. I worked on Phantoms in the AF, about the time they were starting to sling the Vulcan cannon in a pod under the belly, on the centre line attachments. Before they were manufactured with the gun.
416loren I’m thinking about pulling the trigger on a low number 1903. I hear a bunch of people shooting “mild hand loads.” However, modern non rushed wartime ammo has a higher quality than wartime ammunition. I assume new production ammunition such as Federal M1 Garand 30.06 and Sellier & Bellot M2 ball 30.06 would be fine as it’s purposefully designed to shoot from an M1 Garand. What’s your opinion on using these brands in a low number 1903?
The ability to turn a service rifle into a short spear will be obsolete when enemies are immune to stabbing. Until that day, the bayonet will be a necessary part of any soldier's kit. It doesn't hurt to expand their utility, however. For instance, instead of carrying a bayonet, scabbard, and wire cutters, the bayonet combined with the scabbard can act as wire cutters.
Considering today modern level 4 armor with Kevlar on both sides with a big plate in the middle is immune to such stabbing, they really have no combat use in any meaningful way, plus they are more geared as knifes then as bayonets. Plus with full face helmets, blast collars, deltoid and groin protectors followed by thigh and bicep protectors....well soon stabbing each other won't really work the way it used to.
Redneck Fury Kevlar does nothing to stop knives, and plate armor only covers a small portion of the body. Bayonets can be jabbed in the unarmored spaces. Besides, only first and second world armies can afford to outfit their soldiers with such protection. I doubt you've ever actually held a bayonet if you think they're like knives. They aren't sharp, because a sharp bayonet will cut into bone and get stuck. Bayonets are spear points, even the ones that look like knives are optimized as spear points first and foremost.
Paul Dalton Ever try wielding a bayonet mounted on a rifle? it's not a agile thing, its a eight to 10 or more pound spear with a knife blade on the end of it, the combat knife really is not even meant for combat anymore, they have become short and very wide, more akin to a tool then a weapon. anyways, bayonets today really don't have a use mounted to a rifle, any competent well trained military will never become susceptible to bayonet charges anymore, plus automatic weapons basically outdated this sort of tactic anyways.
Redneck Fury As if wars only take place between modern armies. Otherwise, I agree. Bayonets are a weapon of last resort. I see them as cheap insurance for when a unit has no CAS, no armor support, little to no ammo, and no hope of relief. At that point, a bayonet charge might work or it might not.
Elijah Decker Exactly as i said, you are basically using a heavy stick with a big knife on it to fight guys with guns, that seems pretty hopeless to me.....its the sort of thing use use if you are going to die anyways and have no other option.
Bayonets are still useful. They are excellent for riot control because it seems that even people stupid enough to think you wouldn't shoot them understand that you can be hurt by something sharp and pointy and the people behind you will push YOU onto them.
As I recall, didn't the rod bayonet come out of the trapdoor Springfield originally? From what I recall, it was experimented on in 1880, rejected due to faults with the retention, then fixed and redesigned into the 1884 Trapdoor, where it was accepted fully (and into the even more improved 1888 trapdoor). Then the Krag came along in 1892, which didn't have the cleaning rod, and so was adopted with the blade bayonet. So it was simply a matter of returning to previous practice with the rod bayonet on the 1903. Also, I guess I don't see how it's that awful of a design- it seems little different to me from the rod bayonets on the FG42 and Mas36....
Electrification of the Arsenals and the installation of incandescent lights in the heat treat areas also had a big impact on the workers ability to gauge metal temperature.
My grandfather was drafted in 1917. Just before they were to ship over there, they were target practicing and the gun the man next to him was using, blew up. It put my grandpa's right eye out and he didn't have to go to France. Of course it's tragic that he lost his eye but it may have saved his life. Ironically, he was an avid hunter. He was right handed but somehow shot using his left eye. I never got to see him do it. He mostly used a shotgun.
I think if it was more sturdy and had a more effective spike (maybe having a twisted tri-spike tip going back a few inches) then it could have worked,in ww2 the fg-42 had something not too far off this.
The US didn't enter the European war till 1917, but it already had a tussle with the Mexican Revolution (1910-1924) was every well an issue for the US well before Europe great war. Amongst other things, the conflict often spilled over into the US southwest and the US moblizing & sending troops across the border to stop the raiders. A major reason why the US declared war against Germany during ww1 at all was cause the German government was trying to egg on Mexico with the "Zimmerman telegram".
I picked up a low number 1903 not that long ago. It's an early 1906 springfield receiver, with a 1909 springfield barrel on it and it was rebuilt some time after wwII with a remingtion bolt, stock, and rear sight. The theory so far, at least the one I have been told, is that it was built in 30-03, rebuilt into 30-06 in 1909, and then rebuilt either for use in ww2 or after use in ww2. I am not worried about shooting it, and I plan to as soon as I find some greek hxp for a good deal, this video was informal but did not change my opnion on shooting mine.
I had a Springfield 1903 made in 1914. I had a good one, no one ever told me they blew up sometimes, and so I shot extremely HOT loads all the time. Seems I am very lucky!
NO no no they don't blow up. I did a lot of research after I bought mine and I couldn't find a single article or story with evidence about a springfield 1903 blowing up. In fact a total of 80 blew up over a period of time from 1914-1945. Out of 2.5 million. From what Julian hatcher discovered during the investigation, it was due to poor quality ammunition, and soldiers putting in 8mm lebel and 8mm mauser amminution in it.
The rifles had to be rechambered because the neck of 30-03 is longer than 30-06. 30-03 is the parent case for 270. The original 1903s had a rod bayonet too. This was updated around the same time the rifles were being updated in 1906.
Wow, that was a crappy bayonet indeed. It's a half done job: still pretending to be a bayonet, but not strong enough to actually serve as one. I think the ultimate bayonet design is that of the MAS 36. But made of steel it's still a bit heavy for no real reason. Machined from a single piece of good modern hardened aluminum alloy (like 7075-T651, 7068-T6511, etc), it would stand its role as a bayonet, at a negligible weight and bulk, and would be a fraction of the price of complicated manufactured knife-bayonets, which usually make poor knives that aren't very useful neither. If fixed blade knives are really desirable for soldiers to have, getting rid of the stupid bayonet mounting constraint would be a huge improvement in regard of ergonomics. As far as M4/M16 assault rifle goes, a simple thick wall aluminum tube machined to a point sled around the flash hider is enough. Cheapness, low weight, strength and functionality should be the rule.
US Ordinance thought it would be fine to use old Surplus Powder for 30-06 in the new 5.56 X 45 cartridge in Vietnam, creating quite the Fustercluck with the new rifle, along with the rumor it didn't need cleaning or lubricant. Seems to me I remember another Ordinance Dept. Screw Up concerning a certain Mark XIV Torpedo in WW 2. How many men died and ships sunk because Ordinance insisted it was fine, when it was either a Dud, or turned and sank the boat that fired it.
Wow, I really enjoyed all the backstory on the rifle. I will bet money that sometime in the future a bayonet or similar weapon will be placed on combat rifles. JMO. Keep the videos coming, Looking forward to the next one, Thanks.
I just bought a 1911 year Springfield 1903, serial number is 478***. It was sporterized and I'm going to put it back to original military configuration if I can get all the parts to Canada. But anyway, what is the best way to check if the receiver to safe enough to shoot? I will be reloading and I think if its safe to shoot through my M1 Garand then its safe for the M1903. Great video as always.
There's another reason why I wouldn't try actually shooting those rifles with the bad serial numbers: today's .30-06 ammunition is loaded a lot "hotter" than it was during World War 1. While never a slouch, today's .30-06 is more like what the H& H Magnum used to be back then.
I was curious if you had plans to cover the M1903 Hoffer Thompson .22 Trainer rifle? Noticed the John Garand .22 video but couldn’t find any others. Just trying to find more information about the one my grandfather has.
Use the rod bayonet as a spear maybe? It'd work better than a rifle bayonet, as it's originally made to be. Other than cleaning rod, I see its potential as spear, or throwing spike. Or a heavy duty arrow, crossbow or longbow type arrow. Survival last ditch item. If you know your knife combat, or hand to hand combat, or any good type of martial arts, the rod bayonet would work to your advantage. Who knows.
How to use the Bayonet: Step one: Find a close enough enemy. Step two: Insert bayonet carefully in the enemies chest. Be aware of the position of your rifle and make sure you are pushing in from a good angle, since that is crucial to the wellbeing of your bayonet. Step three 'a': Slowly pull the bayonet out of your enemy, if struggling, ask him to assist by slightly pushing the muzzle of your rig Leon your direction. Once again, be aware of the angle of your rifle to bayonet to chest. You don’t want to mess that up since it results in: Step three 'b': Brake off bayonet, leave it in there. You can recover it at the end of the battle or the war. Good option if there is not much time for pulling out or your enemy is not willing to assist you with said pulling out thing.
It's kind of a trend, "X is obsolete so we'll design the next models to exclude X" then in the next conflict "we need X because we're next to combat ineffective". The F4 Phantom springs to mind....
One error in this video: Theodore Roosevelt didn't send that letter as secretary of war (a position he never held), he sent it _to_ the secretary of war, as _president,_ in 1905. At some point, to show how useless it was, he deliberately snapped one off the end of the rifle, showing how fragile it really was.
It's always interesting to hear how in the past presidents were apparently quite personally involved in things like the development of firearms.. I heard Lincoln personally held firearms trails on the lawn of the Whitehouse. And now Teddy Roosevelt getting involved with the bayonet question? Fascinating. I wonder if the job just involved less in general for them to be able to spend time on relatively trivial things like that.
The bayonet is integral to the kit and morale of the individual grunt, and always will be. Beyond the fact that it's a big piece of sharp steel, and therefore a valuable tool, the point remains that in close combat the bayonet is a psychological advantage for the individual, and scares the shit out of the people on the wrong end, because it means you are coming for them. No doubt. No hidden message. A armed and trained man is advancing on you with full intent to ruin your whole fucking week. The bayonet has featured in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the Cav charge even made a come back in Afghanistan.
Very cool I have a serial range 156,000 rifle with a bayonet within 1,000 serial numbers of it pretty close for something that old I believe mine was made in 1906 if I remember right. I won’t and have never shot it for this reason that and it’s in what I believe to be really good condition
In 1914 Germany would not be an enemy combatant. So in what year did the US government seize the patent. And how come it apparently was with retroactive effect. As a lot of bullets where made when US government did not have the patent. Of course the German company would not be paid anyway until the end of the war. Or the sum of the fine would be seized immediately after payment as an asset of enemy combatant.
I cannot imagine any endeavor ever performed by humanity where a chunk of sharpened steel will ever not be useful to some extent. Of the things that propelled Humanity above the Animals the greatest may be Fire, however by far a close second goes to the simple Blade.
Teddy Roosevelt was President, not Sec. of War (which he never was either) at the time of the 1903's adoption.
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I suppose if you're really vested in shooting the gun you could do a hardness test (rockwell/mohs) and see to which crystalline structure it corresponded to. Would be a load of research but short of hammering it on an anvil and potentially shattering the gun, it's the least destructive method you could do.
I would guess the brass casings flexible nature is why the barrels survived with good rounds, it’s like a katana a mixed material reinforcement soft steel inside very hard steel to prevent snapping the blade.
Close quarter weapons / tactics have increased in need through recent years...besides that I would argue in the right hands * British hands 😏 * your country will soon gain a fondness for tea
Bayonets are the great grandchildren of the weapon with the most kills in human history, the spear. I doubt that the bayonet will ever become truly obsolete, though there are certainly guns that are not very becoming of a bayonet because of either their shape or their role. A sniper rifle should never need a bayonet, and a stubby gun like a P90 with a bayonet isn’t much better than just using a knife.
Can it really be the case that the brass cartridge case takes a significant proportion of the chamber pressure? I can understand gas leakage problems from a split case, but bursting the chamber...?
They didn’t heat treat the receivers, they hardened them. Hardening is only the first step of heat treating. The second step is tempering. Done together, hardening and tempering make up heat treating. A properly heat treated piece of steel usually takes on the properties of spring steel. As the name implies, it’s springy and thus it is ideal for use in, you guessed it, springs. However, spring steel is also what most swords were made of. You don’t want your sword to get bent out of shape or shatter.
Fun fact: The variable that Ian mentioned of the brightness of the sun changing how hot the metal "looked" was actually already known and worked around by medieval swordsmiths (especially the Viking/Saxon ones) by creating a forge that was inside a small building with no windows (no outside light meant no variation in how the metal looked when it got hot). It's amazing how many lessons have been learned, forgotten, and then relearned throughout history (sometimes, that cycle is even gone through multiple times).
Cool info, man. This is one of the reasons i always check out the comments on FW and InRange videos.
I am an amateur blacksmith and I definitely know the importance of consistent lighting when forging.
this was around the time that health and safety regs began to require windows by law.
Hey mommy mommy can I see you you today today I have have a a a a little little bit of a a a little little bit of a a little little bit bit of of a a little little little little little bit of a w
@@bigredwolf6 You mean crucible steel?
I offer my sincere and earnest apologies to the M1941 Johnson Rifle Bayonet. I was wrong to believe that you were the daintiest and most half-assed attempt at a bayonet in American military history, I am sorry.
If this is my Johnson and this is my rifle, where's my gun then?
“Bayonets are obsolete.” meanwhile having a magazine cutoff...
well they might use their rapid fire abilities too fast and we can't have that. Never mind that volume of fire often is more effective than marginally more accurate fire.
Because at the time, they believed that volley fire was the way to fight. We know it wasn't, but they didn't know that yet. It wasn't until WWII that soldiers were firing at their own discretion.
The original rod bayonet was part of the 1884 trapdoor springfield. Imagine the contrast
We need to stay ahead of the curve they said.. we'll probably need that cut off when we get back to firing at eachother from 60 feet away
1903: "Bayonet is obsolete"
2012: Some brit leads bayonet charge in afghanistan.
Hemimike426 isn't that just like the British
Well yeah, pretty sure that if someone said the shovel is obsolete some russian would lead a shovel charge some 100 years later.
Hemimike426 Please tell me the lead of the charge caught a 7.62, thats so cringy I cant...
Hemimike426
Already happening, the Russians still like to use entrenching tools to beat their enemies to death, in fact, they did it since at least WWII.
nice links
"We're going to go long today" yeah, like we'd be complaining Ian! Another great, informative video 👍
"we're going a little long here"
This doesn't sound like a problem
I've never said that to a woman.
"Long man bad"(EFAP episode 150 is live as I'm writing this, had to make the reference)
getting stabbed with a screwdriver is not very pleasant but I would not go to war with a screwdriver as a bayonet
honestly, when was a bayonet really a weapon? the cartridge firing breech-loader killed it!!!
keith moore The Japanese were pretty keen on their bayonets.
is this where "you're screwed" comes from? :)
I would.
A long reaching pointy stick will always have a place in battle. The brits made use of bayonet charge to great effect in the falklands, there where also cases in Afghanistan and such.
"Enemy combatants on approach sir!"
"Screw 'em"
Q: "Oh my god, my serial number is 800,001! Is it safe to shoot?!"
A: "Yes, as long as you dont use 300+ grain bullets, with 150,000+ PSI loads."
Huh, never expected the National Armory Department to formally adopt "stab them with a screwdriver."
EDIT: Well crap, Ian made the same joke.
Speaking of bayonets and how this channel is forgotten weapons rather than forgotten firearms would it be possible to see some of the bayonets being sold? I've always been a fan of the old sword bayonets.
edit: I get the feeling I might've asked this before, I apologise if so.
Modern M9 bayonets that are modular; with replaceable parts are another absurd idea. Who on Earth signed off on those and how much did they get paid under the table? Compare their strenght to any 20th century Mauser full tang bayonet.
J.L. Roberts wow I wouldn't use an M9 bayonet at all
A guy I know who is very experienced with 20th Century US Military firearms found a original unaltered ram-rod 1903 at a gun shop for $800. He held on to it for about 10 years and finally sold it for around $30,000. These are not cheapies.
just the rod? thats ridiculous you could buy 3 barrett m82s for that he really suckered someone in selling someone a rod for 30,000 dollars
@@gcart7675 the 1903 springfield is not a super rare gun, but the ramrods are very rare. it's a piece of history and many would pay millions for something others can't have, so i'm not sure he really suckered someone. just found the right buyer.
Vsucc no its still suckering them cause only people who think like that would buy something like that and pay that price for it when you could literally make your own yeah it wouldnt be real but like i said only the people whod buy it cause they think that way would pay that for it for that reason
think he meant a rifle with original ramrod
@@gcart7675 The person isn't interested in having something that looks and feels the same - he wanted to own a piece of history.
I'm watching this for a history assignment, we got to pick what our final presentation was about I picked the US military from 1900-1945. Thank you Ian for being my main source for firearms and helping me through my Junior year of Highschool with this project.
Bayonets are obsolete, brought to you by the same people who said guns where obsolete on fighters in the 50's
Many years ago, Teddy Roosevelt’s letter was on display at the Springfield Arsenal museum, in a frame over a nice example of an early 1903. Just last year, I visited the museum and found that it was vastly reduced and the letter was nowhere to be found. The organ of civil war muskets was also gone! 😢
A proper bayonet should also be a good knife. A good knife is never going to be obsolete because it is just too useful as a tool, if not as a weapon. The last ditch/psychological effect of the Bayonet is certainly something that shouldn't be overlooked as well.
No kidding! I was actually linked here from the video on the M1915 Bolo Bayonet, and I'm surprised that the US didn't make a couple million of those for the trenches after we arrived, what with all the 'interesting' blades that did get made.
Modern combat gear is pretty much completely immune to bladed weapons.
@@anzaca1 I don't agree with your assessment. While you won't be defeating ballistic plate with a knife, you really don't have to. There are still all the soft spots between plates that knives can easily be put through. Small wounds, especially on a human leg, which is typically not armored can and will cause a very painful death quite easily.
Thanks for explaining the patent issues with Mauser and DWM. I used to think it was more of a "stupid Americans copying the Mauser and thinking they can get away with it" case. Now, I know it's not the case :) Thank you Ian, keep up the great work!
If you legitimately thought that and saw absolutely no problem blaming it on "stupid Americans" then you're an asshole.
He could have explained though that naming a company "german weapons factory" does NOT make it "the german government" FFS.
Imagine accidentally coping someone and then asking them how to set up the royalty arrangement after you've already started production.
I really like these longer videos and the whole channel in general.
A good video "too long"? Is that a thing?
Ps. That peep sight was designed for 18 year olds 🍻
Hatcher also said that it was common practice for troopers to 'grease' their cartridges. This dramatically increased pressure on the bolt face. Hatcher's preferred fix (which was not implemented by the Army) was to drill a vent hole in the side of the receiver. This "Hatcher Hole" was only adopted by the Marines. The hole would relieve pressure and allow even a brittle receiver to survive a failed case.
i fire my 1910 springfield often, but my compromise to the possibility of a brittle reciever i only shoot M1919 gallery loads. its accurate with very little recoil. i dont like to own guns i cant shoot.
A gun you can't shoot only makes for a club and dust collector.
I keep my two unshootable guns around just as reminders to always research and do a thorough inspection of any gun you buy. I never want a bolt exploding or being a single shot away from exploding on me again.
I always loved the look of the old-school military rifles with the full wood forestock
6:21 For anyone wondering, DWM stand for Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken, which I first learned of when watching Tales Of The Gun on the History channel
Even as far back as the late 18th Century, it was accepted by officers who had actually conducted bayonet charges, the *primary* point of the bayonet is not to actually stab guys who stand and fight - it is to cause the line being charged to break in fear, making it easier to shoot or stab them in the back. Likewise, the intimidation factor made them quite well suited for riot or prisoner control.
The perfect bayonet engagement is one where your guys still have clean bayonets at the end.
Which means the key points to effective bayonet employment are:
1. A credible stabby bit. It doesn't have to be *great*, merely *credible*. Which means that it only makes sense to make them multi-purpose, so long as you don't compromise the credibility of them as a bayonet. So, trowel and field knife bayonets make sense, while rod bayonets do not.
2. The bayonet should be *visible*, meaning that blue or parkerized bayonets are a bad idea, because if the enemy can't tell you have mounted a bayonet, the fear factor can't kick in. They don't have to be mirror bright, but they should be something that contrasts with the rifle. Matte white works.
3. The troops holding the bayoneted rifles must look competent,confident, and aggressive. So, while the bayonet training doesn't have to be terribly involved, it still has to be good enough that the troops look like what they are doing, are confident they know what they are doing, and are actually good enough to be able to stand up to the skills of their likely opponents.
As an old Lance Corporal once said "They don't like it up 'em"
I thought the primary point of the bayonet was the end of it.
@@DraikSith LOL. Good one
Hey, a cleaning rod can be really deadly too! Not in actual hand-to-hand combat though. I've heard an interesting story from some troops that fought in Chechnya, where Russian spec ops would sneak up on sleeping sentries and what not and kill them by driving their standard AK cleaning rod through the poor guys' ears. Apparently that was really quick, quiet and clean.
(Yeah, I know, this is completely irrelevant. Interesting story though, IMO)
holy fuck that sounds gross
Makro vicious
Wow, takes cleaning the ear to a whole new level.
Don't AK cleaning kits generally have pull chain/string instead of a cleaning rod?
+Peter holy shit
Oh my god I need to use this genie sneak up on a enemy
Deciding that the bayonet was no longer required for a battle rifle is like sending F4 Phantoms to Vietnam without a gun, having decided that fighters no longer needed a gun. OOOPS!
Well, they expected that future conflicts would be against the USSR, and the Phantom was optimised for shooting down bombers/fighters similar to itself. And they learned during the war, bringing in gun pods, then an integrated gun.
@@anzaca1 Both mistakes, the bayonet and the Phantom' missing gun, were made for the same reasons. I worked on Phantoms in the AF, about the time they were starting to sling the Vulcan cannon in a pod under the belly, on the centre line attachments.
Before they were manufactured with the gun.
Why do U.S. Military rifles always have the most beautiful finish?
Ian, your vids are incredibly informative and fascinating! Keep up the good work, mate.
Oh! The ordnance department had some insights on CQC , did it? Well, they are the best darned experts in hand to hand combat ever! Jackasses!
lol "do they explode" .. real reassuring
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.
I shot my low numbered 1903 Springfield today. It did not blow up. I did not die.
416loren I’m thinking about pulling the trigger on a low number 1903. I hear a bunch of people shooting “mild hand loads.”
However, modern non rushed wartime ammo has a higher quality than wartime ammunition. I assume new production ammunition such as Federal M1 Garand 30.06 and Sellier & Bellot M2 ball 30.06 would be fine as it’s purposefully designed to shoot from an M1 Garand. What’s your opinion on using these brands in a low number 1903?
Really enjoyed this longer video
Let's replace a Sword w/ a rod (instead of phasing it out/ Using a Knife)
The ability to turn a service rifle into a short spear will be obsolete when enemies are immune to stabbing. Until that day, the bayonet will be a necessary part of any soldier's kit. It doesn't hurt to expand their utility, however. For instance, instead of carrying a bayonet, scabbard, and wire cutters, the bayonet combined with the scabbard can act as wire cutters.
Considering today modern level 4 armor with Kevlar on both sides with a big plate in the middle is immune to such stabbing, they really have no combat use in any meaningful way, plus they are more geared as knifes then as bayonets.
Plus with full face helmets, blast collars, deltoid and groin protectors followed by thigh and bicep protectors....well soon stabbing each other won't really work the way it used to.
Redneck Fury
Kevlar does nothing to stop knives, and plate armor only covers a small portion of the body. Bayonets can be jabbed in the unarmored spaces.
Besides, only first and second world armies can afford to outfit their soldiers with such protection.
I doubt you've ever actually held a bayonet if you think they're like knives. They aren't sharp, because a sharp bayonet will cut into bone and get stuck. Bayonets are spear points, even the ones that look like knives are optimized as spear points first and foremost.
Paul Dalton Ever try wielding a bayonet mounted on a rifle? it's not a agile thing, its a eight to 10 or more pound spear with a knife blade on the end of it, the combat knife really is not even meant for combat anymore, they have become short and very wide, more akin to a tool then a weapon.
anyways, bayonets today really don't have a use mounted to a rifle, any competent well trained military will never become susceptible to bayonet charges anymore, plus automatic weapons basically outdated this sort of tactic anyways.
Redneck Fury
As if wars only take place between modern armies.
Otherwise, I agree. Bayonets are a weapon of last resort. I see them as cheap insurance for when a unit has no CAS, no armor support, little to no ammo, and no hope of relief. At that point, a bayonet charge might work or it might not.
Elijah Decker Exactly as i said, you are basically using a heavy stick with a big knife on it to fight guys with guns, that seems pretty hopeless to me.....its the sort of thing use use if you are going to die anyways and have no other option.
I have a 1903 with the 1905 barrel S stock 16,000 range made in 1904 by Springfield armory duffle cut no stock markings another Ian any ideas?
"One to keep it company in the safe"
Oh how Droll.
Stellar video. I'd purchase another low serial number just for the great story..
Pretty cool to see an NRA commercial before this video, I really thought TH-cam didn't run ads from them,
Bayonets are still useful. They are excellent for riot control because it seems that even people stupid enough to think you wouldn't shoot them understand that you can be hurt by something sharp and pointy and the people behind you will push YOU onto them.
I do like how the stock looks, specifically right in front of the rear sight. Doesn't have that weird swoop.
Bayonets are completely obsolete...until you need one. Then suddenly a need arises.
Taking 17 and a half minutes to get to the title item, in most vids bad, with Ian - great!
As I recall, didn't the rod bayonet come out of the trapdoor Springfield originally? From what I recall, it was experimented on in 1880, rejected due to faults with the retention, then fixed and redesigned into the 1884 Trapdoor, where it was accepted fully (and into the even more improved 1888 trapdoor). Then the Krag came along in 1892, which didn't have the cleaning rod, and so was adopted with the blade bayonet. So it was simply a matter of returning to previous practice with the rod bayonet on the 1903.
Also, I guess I don't see how it's that awful of a design- it seems little different to me from the rod bayonets on the FG42 and Mas36....
It was brittle and broke easily. That's why they decided to get rid of it and switch back to Blade Bayonets.
Electrification of the Arsenals and the installation of incandescent lights in the heat treat areas also had a big impact on the workers ability to gauge metal temperature.
Thank you for the reminder. Years ago I was told to stay away from the pre 1906 Springfields. But never knew exactly why.
Hey, at least if the rifle explodes you can use the pencil duct taped to the end to commit seppuku
My grandfather was drafted in 1917. Just before they were to ship over there, they were target practicing and the gun the man next to him was using, blew up. It put my grandpa's right eye out and he didn't have to go to France. Of course it's tragic that he lost his eye but it may have saved his life. Ironically, he was an avid hunter. He was right handed but somehow shot using his left eye. I never got to see him do it. He mostly used a shotgun.
I think if it was more sturdy and had a more effective spike (maybe having a twisted tri-spike tip going back a few inches) then it could have worked,in ww2 the fg-42 had something not too far off this.
Or WW2 vintage Enfield bayonets.
Or the French "Rosalie" and MAS 36 bayonets. The design of the fg-42 bayonet is more or less a direct copy of the latter.
So, a cleaning rod that can poke you while cleaning.
it would work good for shishkebab, best feature ever
7:16 how can it be "enemy combatents"in 1914 when the US only entered the war in 1917?
the US was *selling* supplies to the Allied powers well before entering the war
@@kirkstinson7316 Stonks
The US didn't enter the European war till 1917, but it already had a tussle with the Mexican Revolution (1910-1924) was every well an issue for the US well before Europe great war. Amongst other things, the conflict often spilled over into the US southwest and the US moblizing & sending troops across the border to stop the raiders. A major reason why the US declared war against Germany during ww1 at all was cause the German government was trying to egg on Mexico with the "Zimmerman telegram".
I picked up a low number 1903 not that long ago. It's an early 1906 springfield receiver, with a 1909 springfield barrel on it and it was rebuilt some time after wwII with a remingtion bolt, stock, and rear sight. The theory so far, at least the one I have been told, is that it was built in 30-03, rebuilt into 30-06 in 1909, and then rebuilt either for use in ww2 or after use in ww2. I am not worried about shooting it, and I plan to as soon as I find some greek hxp for a good deal, this video was informal but did not change my opnion on shooting mine.
Bayonets may be obsolete for their initial use but a knife is always a useful tool to have around
Screwdriver of ultimate doom! DOOM!
I had a Springfield 1903 made in 1914. I had a good one, no one ever told me they blew up sometimes, and so I shot extremely HOT loads all the time. Seems I am very lucky!
NO no no they don't blow up. I did a lot of research after I bought mine and I couldn't find a single article or story with evidence about a springfield 1903 blowing up. In fact a total of 80 blew up over a period of time from 1914-1945. Out of 2.5 million. From what Julian hatcher discovered during the investigation, it was due to poor quality ammunition, and soldiers putting in 8mm lebel and 8mm mauser amminution in it.
@@89tonstar Correct, most people who say "Hatcher said dont shoot low serial 1903's" have never actually read the research he did on the failures
The rifles had to be rechambered because the neck of 30-03 is longer than 30-06.
30-03 is the parent case for 270.
The original 1903s had a rod bayonet too. This was updated around the same time the rifles were being updated in 1906.
Excellent episode! (Sunday mornings - we have the time to watch the longer ones :-) )
This seems like a shit design
It's shit, but the thing is despite TR's opinion it didn't need to be good.
2:32. Something like WW1 happening again? Shivers...
Wow, that was a crappy bayonet indeed. It's a half done job: still pretending to be a bayonet, but not strong enough to actually serve as one. I think the ultimate bayonet design is that of the MAS 36. But made of steel it's still a bit heavy for no real reason. Machined from a single piece of good modern hardened aluminum alloy (like 7075-T651, 7068-T6511, etc), it would stand its role as a bayonet, at a negligible weight and bulk, and would be a fraction of the price of complicated manufactured knife-bayonets, which usually make poor knives that aren't very useful neither. If fixed blade knives are really desirable for soldiers to have, getting rid of the stupid bayonet mounting constraint would be a huge improvement in regard of ergonomics. As far as M4/M16 assault rifle goes, a simple thick wall aluminum tube machined to a point sled around the flash hider is enough. Cheapness, low weight, strength and functionality should be the rule.
US Ordinance thought it would be fine to use old Surplus Powder for 30-06 in the new 5.56 X 45 cartridge in Vietnam, creating quite the Fustercluck with the new rifle, along with the rumor it didn't need cleaning or lubricant.
Seems to me I remember another Ordinance Dept. Screw Up concerning a certain Mark XIV Torpedo in WW 2. How many men died and ships sunk because Ordinance insisted it was fine, when it was either a Dud, or turned and sank the boat that fired it.
Absolutely superb review on this one Ian
Wow, I really enjoyed all the backstory on the rifle. I will bet money that sometime in the future a bayonet or similar weapon will be placed on combat rifles. JMO. Keep the videos coming, Looking forward to the next one, Thanks.
I just bought a 1911 year Springfield 1903, serial number is 478***. It was sporterized and I'm going to put it back to original military configuration if I can get all the parts to Canada. But anyway, what is the best way to check if the receiver to safe enough to shoot? I will be reloading and I think if its safe to shoot through my M1 Garand then its safe for the M1903. Great video as always.
There's another reason why I wouldn't try actually shooting those rifles with the bad serial numbers: today's .30-06 ammunition is loaded a lot "hotter" than it was during World War 1. While never a slouch, today's .30-06 is more like what the H& H Magnum used to be back then.
I was curious if you had plans to cover the M1903 Hoffer Thompson .22 Trainer rifle? Noticed the John Garand .22 video but couldn’t find any others. Just trying to find more information about the one my grandfather has.
1905: Theodore Roosevelt was President of the United States, not the Secretary of War. Roosevelt took office when McKinley was killed in 1901.
Where/how do you learn about these obscure guns? Do you research each gun, or do you know all this already? Keep up the good work!
TR was never Secretary of War, he was Assistant Secretary of the Navy, VP, and President. Taft was TR’s Secretary of War.
Use the rod bayonet as a spear maybe? It'd work better than a rifle bayonet, as it's originally made to be. Other than cleaning rod, I see its potential as spear, or throwing spike. Or a heavy duty arrow, crossbow or longbow type arrow. Survival last ditch item.
If you know your knife combat, or hand to hand combat, or any good type of martial arts, the rod bayonet would work to your advantage.
Who knows.
How to use the Bayonet:
Step one:
Find a close enough enemy.
Step two:
Insert bayonet carefully in the enemies chest. Be aware of the position of your rifle and make sure you are pushing in from a good angle, since that is crucial to the wellbeing of your bayonet.
Step three 'a':
Slowly pull the bayonet out of your enemy, if struggling, ask him to assist by slightly pushing the muzzle of your rig Leon your direction. Once again, be aware of the angle of your rifle to bayonet to chest. You don’t want to mess that up since it results in:
Step three 'b': Brake off bayonet, leave it in there. You can recover it at the end of the battle or the war. Good option if there is not much time for pulling out or your enemy is not willing to assist you with said pulling out thing.
It's kind of a trend, "X is obsolete so we'll design the next models to exclude X" then in the next conflict "we need X because we're next to combat ineffective". The F4 Phantom springs to mind....
One error in this video: Theodore Roosevelt didn't send that letter as secretary of war (a position he never held), he sent it _to_ the secretary of war, as _president,_ in 1905. At some point, to show how useless it was, he deliberately snapped one off the end of the rifle, showing how fragile it really was.
The Army never learns. They didn’t include, in an act of shortsightedness, a bayonet on the xm7/NGWS.
Ian...you NEED this rifle!
long video but very interesting information nevertheless !
My 1888 Trapdoor Springfield rifle had the same 'ramrod' bayonet/cleaning rod. It wasn't a good idea then either.
It's always interesting to hear how in the past presidents were apparently quite personally involved in things like the development of firearms.. I heard Lincoln personally held firearms trails on the lawn of the Whitehouse. And now Teddy Roosevelt getting involved with the bayonet question? Fascinating. I wonder if the job just involved less in general for them to be able to spend time on relatively trivial things like that.
The rod bayonet was stupid because they finally realized bayonets and bayonet charges were stupid.
at any rate
-Ian
The bayonet is integral to the kit and morale of the individual grunt, and always will be. Beyond the fact that it's a big piece of sharp steel, and therefore a valuable tool, the point remains that in close combat the bayonet is a psychological advantage for the individual, and scares the shit out of the people on the wrong end, because it means you are coming for them. No doubt. No hidden message. A armed and trained man is advancing on you with full intent to ruin your whole fucking week.
The bayonet has featured in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the Cav charge even made a come back in Afghanistan.
Very cool I have a serial range 156,000 rifle with a bayonet within 1,000 serial numbers of it pretty close for something that old I believe mine was made in 1906 if I remember right.
I won’t and have never shot it for this reason that and it’s in what I believe to be really good condition
In 1914 Germany would not be an enemy combatant. So in what year did the US government seize the patent. And how come it apparently was with retroactive effect. As a lot of bullets where made when US government did not have the patent. Of course the German company would not be paid anyway until the end of the war. Or the sum of the fine would be seized immediately after payment as an asset of enemy combatant.
So Henry Phillips stole Springfield's bayonet design when he made his screwdriver?
I cannot imagine any endeavor ever performed by humanity where a chunk of sharpened steel will ever not be useful to some extent.
Of the things that propelled Humanity above the Animals the greatest may be Fire, however by far a close second goes to the simple Blade.
Yet another great video, I ,ove learning new things, especially about war and weapons of all sorts.:D
Teddy Roosevelt was President, not Sec. of War (which he never was either) at the time of the 1903's adoption.
I suppose if you're really vested in shooting the gun you could do a hardness test (rockwell/mohs) and see to which crystalline structure it corresponded to. Would be a load of research but short of hammering it on an anvil and potentially shattering the gun, it's the least destructive method you could do.
Do you know any body in Massachusetts that could tell me what I might have? I acquired 3 not to long ago. Or could I talk with some one at RockIsland?
I would guess the brass casings flexible nature is why the barrels survived with good rounds, it’s like a katana a mixed material reinforcement soft steel inside very hard steel to prevent snapping the blade.
Close quarter weapons / tactics have increased in need through recent years...besides that I would argue in the right hands * British hands 😏 * your country will soon gain a fondness for tea
Never worry about going long. :) I always prefer the longer videos, because it invariably means there's more cool stuff to learn.
Bayonets are the great grandchildren of the weapon with the most kills in human history, the spear. I doubt that the bayonet will ever become truly obsolete, though there are certainly guns that are not very becoming of a bayonet because of either their shape or their role. A sniper rifle should never need a bayonet, and a stubby gun like a P90 with a bayonet isn’t much better than just using a knife.
Can it really be the case that the brass cartridge case takes a significant proportion of the chamber pressure? I can understand gas leakage problems from a split case, but bursting the chamber...?
You can't go far wrong starting with a quote from T. Rooseveldt. The bayonet is not yet obsolete. Bayonets are useful for crowd control.
They didn’t heat treat the receivers, they hardened them. Hardening is only the first step of heat treating. The second step is tempering. Done together, hardening and tempering make up heat treating. A properly heat treated piece of steel usually takes on the properties of spring steel. As the name implies, it’s springy and thus it is ideal for use in, you guessed it, springs. However, spring steel is also what most swords were made of. You don’t want your sword to get bent out of shape or shatter.
Don't agree with Ian on the marked sight range equalling effective range. The top speed on my cars speedometer is not how fast it will go.
Um one of the model 1903 rifles put in the testing that got hit with a hammer had a serial number between 800,000-804,000 and it shattered.
Alright now please explain to everyone that, given proper ammo, Damascus barrels can be better than their contemporary barrels!