If you like poor scholarship, conspiracy theory, one logical fallacy after another and false accusations while misrepresenting men of God's positions, then yeah, very interesting.
Came out of a NAR church this year after the 5 that I served here in NJ under chuck pierce, che ahn I am so thankful to God my eyes have been truly open after studying Micah 3, Jeremiah 23, 2 Timothy 3. There was an extreme emphasis put on his prophetic words tied in with Hebraic Roots and Gematria that chuck would prophesy and that breed competition amongst the body of the church to prophesy… they embraced the c peter wagner eschatology., dominion theology seven mountain mandate, complete exegesis of Gods Holy Word. God is Sovereign I am saved by God alone, in Christ alone! Thank you for posting this video it’s very informative
Thank you guys. As a therapist, I have so many individuals who put the church before family, health, finances and common sense. It’s lethal to those who run on emotion and hype.
My Grandparents were in a church like that. They even left their very small estate (they were very poor their whole lives) to their church rather than to their 7 children and dozens of grandchildren. Their church came before anyone else.
Thank you for sharing that. I was in a Word of Faith church, similar to NAR, for years and saw many people get seriously hurt by this theology. Some even died physically as a result because they were told to believe God for healing and didn't seek medical help. I lost a good friend that way.
@@juliannebrancadora3476I’m watching an acquaintance get sick and depressed because she won’t admit that she pulled herself off of meds and a cpap, God didn’t suddenly heal her. These people can be dangerous to impressionable and lonely people
I deeply appreciate the ministry of Remnant Radio and what I see as a genuine attempt from two charismatic brothers in Christ who are , in this episode, trying to bring balance and clarification on how a a biblically orthodox Christian who holds to the perpetuity of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit today can reconcile issues/teachings lurking within the charismatic church that that are of paramount concern. As a charismatic and one whose has a number of family members who are leaders within this NAR movement... there are some critically important topics that are not being discussed. A few minutes at best was spent on the Christology of those who would identify themselves as leaders within this movement . They do Not define The Gospel in a biblically orthodox sense. Their framework is Signs/Wonders/Miracles and Existential Experience. They look at scripture through this lens and although they may give lip service to agreeing to a form of Sola Scriptura, they preach something very different. The message of The Gospel is so often redefined in this movement as being a function of signs ans wonders . Now the Remnant Radio Hosts can look at a doctrinal statement on the websites if these NAR churches and see that it is orthodox ... but this is what their teachings demonstrate on a regular basis. I , like the Remnant Hosts, have absolutely no interest in as reject the practice of engaging in red herrings personal attacks. However, there are some very real problems with the teachings that are proposed by the NAR ans Remnant Radio has just touched the surface. Finally... there is a very, very concerning aversion to systematic , exegetical Bible teaching in these churches . They absolutely favor the elevation of their experiences .. often very mystical in nature .. over the final revelation of Holy Scripture . This is why, in part, I believe that there is such wide spread biblical illiteracy within these churches .... and this is what creates the breeding ground for all kinds of teachings that depart from biblical orthodoxy . Instead of allowing their spiritual experiences he judged by and flow out of a deep foundation in Scripture : They do just the OPPOSITE ... elevating their experiences and the words of their governing apostles and prophets to dictate the core of their doctrinal positions . So I ask Remnant Radio, as a fellow Charismatic Believer, your work is Not done on this issue.... please continue the conversation ... because there are many trapped in areas of deception that need to hear the truth from those who they would see as ones “ in their own camp”.. God Bless You Guys
I was recently in a NAR type church & among other disturbing things there is a huge aversion to a lack of scriptural/Biblical teaching. Biblical sound bites taken out of context, buzz words assumed to be true without explaining them, abuse of authority due to claimed Apostle authority. Basically whack!
1:04:16 "I don't know what that even means" was probably the best phrase that someone could use when hearing a NAR teachings. Seems to me that this groups always use "elevated pompous" words to make people think they are really very deep and very spiritual, but in reality they are not. They are just saying things of their own imagination.
NAR are infiltrating my Assembly of God Church. Two have been recruiting me and some other women in the Ladies Bible Study. Thank you for this valuable information. I'm going to tell them to take a hike.
I’m seeing high profile A/G leaders fall for this nonsense… I’ve known several of them very well for many years, and am just shocked that they would buy into this.
Ladies Bible studies seem to be the infiltration point. Never met a pastor, evangelist, teacher ,or even an Apostle. They all claim Prophet status. They have now made an Exodus from our numbers. We love and miss them, but do not adhere to or affirm this doctrine in our church.
Have a real problem with people like this who do not believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit is for today the gifts of the spirit or not for the day. To me these two are nothing but gossipers. Unless you've sat down with every single person you claimed that are prophets and apostles. And have actual quotes from them personally. You have no business making claims those of us in the charismatic movement are aware of many of the abuses that we see taking place. Just last night I was flipping through the channels and came across some guide promising protection by God against evil forces if you give him money. So forth. Let us let people like Dr. Brown who have been speaking out against the abuses in the church and like remnant radio has done also in recent times. These two people have no business trying to explain something that they'vedisagree with in the first place and reject whole chapters of the Bible about the gifts of the spirit.
We went through these very same teachings in the early 1980's. I was falsely prophesied over by the Pastor's wife that I would not conceive a baby until I would submit my life to the authority of the pastor. She did not know that I was pregnant and had just not told her. Our baby will be 40 this year. The Covering ministry and all it entailed was extremely controlling and caused a lot of division. We wrote Dr. Walter Martin and told him what was going on in our church. He wrote us a handwritten letter on paper from a yellow legal pad. He advised us to leave, and he said he considered these types of churches to be "Christian cults". I think it was hard for him to say that. Our church was part of a Pentecostal denomination, and from what I remember, the leaders of the denomination did not approve of what was going on. The sad thing is that we were part of 10 fellowships that had been planted under one church. They are all gone. It destroyed our fellowship and it is no longer there. We thank the Lord that HE kept us in His hand and revealed truth to us. We were so young. We left the ministry as associate pastors.
I've always enjoyed Walter Martians teachings on cults and so forth. It sounds like to me you were in a church that was falsely teaching the roles of leadership. Back in the late 70s we have what was called the shepherding doctrine. These man-made doctrines that exalt men to positions above others in the church Where you must submit to them without question is not of God. This type of leadership abuse happens in every denomination in history. That's why we must follow Jesus. And learn to listen for his voice
Wow what a great interview. All the hosts and guest articulated the issues well. I was delivered from the Mecca of NAR movement years ago and can attest that these are indeed all the various elements and issues that messed me up so bad.
8:14 Is where they define what NAR is, never heard of this before this video. Thanks for posting and your coverage on this! Another reason why I love God giving us scripture, one of the main OG apostle's Paul said, not to follow him but Jesus (1 cor 13) Modern translation: NAR'p dog, I'm good, I follow Jesus :D
Not all errors can be undone or forgiven with "oh, that wasn't what I meant - this is what I really mean." If we always allow that, then we will never be able to hold false teachers to account. And if the statement truly was a misspeak and not intentional, then forgiveness can happen, but there still needs to be some amount of consequence as well. She brought you the proof, don't just hand-wave it away.
Great interview 😊 I would say as a former leader in an NAR church that there is not just error, but actual heresy being frequently taught. The perspective of a former insider is different than what can be appreciated from an outside survey. Definitely many teachings condemned by God in Deuteronomy 18 are commonly encouraged, taught and seen at most services. I will gladly provide examples via email if you are wanting more information. I don’t want to leave an annoyingly long comment 😄
If you don't mind, could you still provide at least a few in a follow up Comment? 😁 I left an NAR. Church 8 or 9 years ago and have been documenting my personal experiences to help inform people who I know are currently in that belief system. I'd just like to hear someone else's examples if that's okay. Thank you! (P.S. I know you mentioned emailing but if you can share any in a follow up Comment here, I'd appreciate it.)
@@wisewoman4950 hi! Sorry this is long 😬 Essential doctrines are ones that you must affirm in order to be considered within the Christian faith. These cannot be denied or redefined. A redefinition can be straight forward or can occur using double speak, meaning affirming the orthodox view but denying it with the subsequent statements and surrounding context. You will see double speak many times, not only in NAR oral teaching but also in their written materials . That’s why we must know what the Bible teaches and know the creeds to help us discern. (Side note one of the hosts keeps mispronouncing chalcedonian in all the videos, the h is silent). It’s easy to tell lies that are obvious from the truth. The Bible tells us that satan comes as an angel of light, so we should expect false teachers to use truth mixed in with lies. Leaders at my former church were required to read materials from known NAR teachers to “ understand the core beliefs of --- church” quote from the leaders manual. Two books that you can research are “When Heaven Invades Earth” and the sequel “ The Supernatural Power of the Transformed Mind”. These are basically the NAR’s manifestos. Many teachers in the NAR repeat verbatim doctrines from those books. Get them used to avoid generating them money. Of note “ When Heaven Invades Earth” has a tenth anniversary edition. If Bill Johnson really did not mean what he initially wrote that would be the place to correct his teaching, however no changes were made to the portions where core doctrines were altered. Essential doctrines of the Christian faith redefined in NAR teachings ( only a few examples) 1.Christ’s deity and Christ’s humanity: The teaching of the hypostatic union is distorted in both books. See chapter 2 of “ When Heaven Invades Earth”. This is a clear example of double speak. Bill states the orthodox view but all the surrounding statements are contrary to what he just stated. There should be no buts or qualifiers after stating Jesus was 100% God. I disagree with the hosts that Bill has explained this as this was not changed in the 10th anniversary edition and he continues to teach it( check out Hillsong Conference 2019 footage) 2.Necessity of grace: Original sin is downplayed and presented differently from what the Bible teaches. One example is found in the chapter Guilt-free and forgiven of “ The Supernatural Power of the transformed mind” 3.Christ’s atoning death: this is also redefined in both books. The miracle of salvation is devalued. Instead what you see is this concept that cross was a way to receive healing and prosperity now. The goal is to heal everyone you pray for, what a terrible burden and misunderstanding of atonement. Also if you redefine the necessity of grace the doctrine of atonement is altered. I have not seen a denial of the trinity in the written material, but there is a misrepresentation of it. The three persons of the trinity ALWAYS work together. If they did not then our God would be schizophrenic. By teaching a misunderstood view of Jesus the doctrine of the trinity is redefined. An example is in chapter 2 of When Heaven invades earth”. Bill quotes John 5:9 “ the Son can do nothing”. If you understand that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit always agree and work together, then you understand what this verse really means. Instead he uses it to put down Jesus’ glory, power and equal position within the Godhead.
@@ruthmarie1899 Thanks for sharing! The church I attended those years ago never expressly taught Bill Johnson's works if I remember correctly. You see I live in Nigeria (Africa) and we have different strains of the same issue. My country is predominantly influenced by Word of Faith and prosperity gospel teachings which are expressed in varying degrees. Our African traditional religious context also gives room for mixing with extreme Charismaticism. I've seen a church leader here be a part of a conference in which Bill Johnson was also speaking and I've seen the fruit that followed. I agree completely about the double speak. That's why I didn't agree entirely with the hosts or the guests about the level of danger. I see heresy as a possibility in these places. In some cases it's express, and in others it's a "only a matter of time" sort of thing. The sovereignty of God is one of the biggest issues. Versus man's authority which they overplay. You'd see the practice of elevating leaders to god status. Consistent with the teachings of course. A lot of spiritual abuse. Finance mishandling, greed, false and dangerous spiritual experiences and practices and so on and so forth. Sometimes I wish the deception was more obvious so more people would be put off. In my country that's all many people know - the NAR and NARish teachings. Many grow up in it and fail to see how false it is. Combined with a culture where people aren't encouraged to speak out against leaders, it's the perfect condition for disaster. Thank you for taking the time to share! I really appreciate it. ❤️
@@pasaspace4029 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned- Romans 5:12 NIV romans.bible/romans-5-12 Sin entered the world through Adam's sin. Only Christ Jesus was born sinless. And He never sinned. The Psalmist paints a picture of this in the Psalms: Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. Psalms 51:5 NKJV bible.com/bible/114/psa.51.5.NKJV But the Bible says, Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19 NKJV bible.com/bible/114/rom.5.18-19.NKJV I hope this helps!
This is really an excellent conversation. I truly appreciate the spot on questions that were being asked. These are precisely the questions I’ve been asking as I’m studying these issues. Thanks for this 🙏🏻❤️
Is falsely interpreting scripture she says nowhere in Ephesians 411 does talk about these offices continuing when it says that until the church reaches unity. And we don't have unity yet today.
That is not true they do not make a distinction between Pentecostal Carismatic leaders and those who are supposed NAR . Dr. Dr. Brown Heidi Baker and others have said I'm a what?? These two have labeled so many people as part of something that they're not. And in my opinion both of these two need to be rebuked and seen as nothing but gossipers and dividing the church
I had been part of a Christian charismatic community between 1974 & 1989, some of who lived in-house together. I left this community in 1989 because it ticked every box of what a cult is. This does not mean the Lord did not use some leaders of the community in sharing the gospel and recovery of the gifts of the Spirit and renewal in the church in South Africa. Rather, its adherence to and practise of the Shepherding movement led to cultish practices and broken lives. I mention this, because as I began to watch your video my stomach clenched and my breathing became shallow. Why? Because just the little that was said in the first minutes of your video reminded me of what occurred from 1980 in South Africa when the "offices" of apostle and prophet began to be elevated beyond their scriptural meaning. And this, I believe, was the seed bed of the NAR movement in South Africa. In fact, I heard that the son of one of the leaders now leads such a church. My personal opinion - and I dare to say this because of my own experience - is that the NAR has demonic roots, for, its most significant trait is control and manipulation. In their humility, the apostles Paul and Barnabas were not controlling, nor did they Lord it over congregations. But in humility they built up that part of the body of Christ that came about through the sharing of the gospel, even though strongly worded letters were written. Yet, even as those words were written Paul tempered them with pleading, not top/down heavy handedness.
I was at a meeting with Bob Jones and others about 15 years ago near Boston. I don't remember who prophesied and taught that anyone who came against the apostles and prophets would be destroyed. They also taught that they would come against the "religious" church. I have to pull out my journals as I probably wrote it down. It was a serious threat to be concerned about. It came across as a direct threat and not that it would be just a spiritual judgement. It was and is very concerning.
@@Henriette-van-der-Ende I have read Mishel's book. I always felt uneasy about Bob Jones. I have walked away from that group a number of years ago when my pastor started getting into exploring the occult to see what Christianity could learn from it. Back to the Bible!
@Dustin Neely, "NAR seems more like the early gnostics with all these "hidden" or "esoteric" teachings." - Right on bro, great point. I think you are right on with this, I am reminded of Paul's words to Timothy: "The things which you have heard from me IN THE PRESENCE OF MANY WITNESSES, entrust these to faithful [b]people who will be able to teach others also." - 2 Timothy 2:2
I believe there are many abuses within the charismatic movement, however my issue with Holly and Doug in this interview, and every other time I've heard them interviewed is that they are making critiques without any scriptural reference. You can categorize something all day long and say, "This is what I don't like," or "This isn't good," but without any comparison to what its actually supposed to look like according to scripture, how is this any different than supposed NAR individuals teaching things that are not scriptural (which is Holly and Doug's critique)? How is that helpful? How is that equipping the body of Christ? I have yet to read their book, so maybe they do a better job of actually using scripture there. But even when the hosts asked them outright what an organization could do to become un-NAR they couldn't give a distinct or scriptural answer, except to tell churches, more or less, to deny the functional existence of apostles. This really seems to indicate that although they may have some legitimate concerns about abuses within the charismatic movement (concerns which I share), overall they just don't approve of continuationism as it relates to the existence of the specific gifts of apostles and prophets in any functional capacity. I've yet to hear them describe how these gifts DO function in a biblical way. I think the real issue is partial cessationism, and an inability or unwillingness to disseminate these particular gifts in a functional way. Until they can address how these gifts DO exist and function in a healthy way within the body, I'm not sure this information is going to help the church grow into maturity like they are claiming. If they believe in partial cessationism, let's have that conversation. We can respectfully disagree about that based on our interpretations of scripture. From there we can discuss applications that are healthy or unhealthy. But let's not beat around the bush and label everyone who believes that apostles and prophets exist along with the other gifts as a heretic. I think a mature critique of the charismatic movement should include more practical and BIBLICAL information, rather than treating the entire movement like it's a cult that we simply have to "get people out of." As a comparison, when Remnant Radio has had Steven Bancarz on the program to identify new age practices and ideology in the church every single element he categorizes or describes is always compared to what scripture actually says about these topics. Holly and Doug don't seem to be able to do that. As teachers claiming to police the body of Christ , that's concerning.
Boy did you hit that nail on the head totally agree with you. I would like to hear your definition of partial cessationism. does that mean they believe in healing but they don't believe in the rest of the gifts of the spirit.
After being a disciple of Jesus for 64 years and a graduate from Bible College and seminary and being a professor and Dean of a Bible College and seminary I have left all Western Institutional Christianity . I still love Jesus and all His people but screw all the institutions and its leaders. Would love to find a group of believes who want to do it by the Bible alone. What do you think? GWR Someone answer me
If John Wimber were alive today, he would be thrown into the NAR group. There are abuses and false teaching, but you can find those things in every church. I believe the church has continued to grow a heart of stone towards the charismatic community and it grows worse every year. The American Gospel is the obsession with rational thought and only preaching what they’ve experienced over what the Word says. I believe that people like Heidi Baker and John Wimber do more for God than the people complaining about Bill Johnson
You raise a good point that is not addressed in Holly and Doug’s book and barely even addresses by any critics at all: what about the good works and the good fruit of many of their works? It is not to say that one would cancel out the other, but not even mentioning it is clearly showing a bias on the subject in the first place.
Guys, respectfully, y’all kept interrupting her many many times. It was very hard to hear hear apologize to you after y’all interrupted her over and over again. Please be mindful of this.
Yes, we absolutely could use a New Reformation, one that advance sola Scriptura and adheres to the Word of God in all of its doctrines and teaching, not what some founder of some church that later would become a full-fledged denomination over time taught that the Word of God says with his own interpretations. No let us return to what the Scripture plainly says, and if there are many passages of scripture that stand against some already held doctrine then that doctrine is wrong, and we do not "rightly divide" the Word of God in such a way that only the scriptures that stand against our doctrine need rightly dividing, while the scriptures that support our doctrine are just fine as they are and do not need rightly dividing, that is confirmation bias to the extreme There is one group I have debated with many times, they exclaim that the scriptures that stand against their doctrine must be rightly divided... interpreted or explained away so that they no longer stand against their doctrines, while the scriptures that support their doctrines are just fine as they are not needing any rightly dividing. People are funny when it comes to what has been pounded into their heads decade after decade, they are how to defend their doctrines, and all of the scriptures that stand against them are interpreted or explained away. It is funny but my KJV says that ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. I have no right to meddle with or alter God's Word in any way shape or form to prop up doctrines that the founder of a denomination taught some 400 years ago. if there is direct scripture that stands against any doctrine then that doctrine is wrong, and it is the doctrine that needs to be brought in line with the Word of God, and not the Word of God brought into line with the doctrine.
Good discussion and very respectful. I think that the Mormons are NAR, according to what my M. friends have taught me. I pray that they will get new prophecy that will lead them to our One God. Biggest danger is giving power to our leaders. Power corrupts and becomes a beast. My advise -stay humble and be a servant, don’t lord your superiority over others.
Mike Winger, yes. Melissa daughterty on FB as well. I’m not that familiar with enough outside of NAR to name more. Chandler and Piper are not charismatic, and Chandler has wandered off into CRT.
I believe Mike Winger is only teaching online. A pastor in my view still needs physical access to his sheep. I know I’d need interaction with mine for any type of fellowship etc. Online is great for learning. Not pastoring. If Mike Winger still pastors a physical body of believers. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
A mature Christian can tell after 2 or 3 sermons what the pastor believes about biblical doctrine. If not have a meeting with the pastor and ask him a few yes or no questions abut doctrine. Trouble is so many have never been taught bible doctrine that they can be easily misled and deceived. Truth is North American Christianity is a mess with so many people teaching in churches that should not be pastors.
One of the sure fire ways to know is when they are more focused upon the Holy Spirit and talk more about him than focusing on Jesus and talking about him. Another way is when they focus more on knowing God thru experience instead of knowing him thru his word. Another way is when they teach that signs, wonders and miracles must follow the preaching of the gospel or it will not be effective. There are many other ways to know that the NAR proponents preach another gospel and another Jesus
I’d like to see a list of Non NAR pastors that teach in a physical church that I could go and physically worship at and have fellowship with. A list for US, Canada, Europe. Any answers?
Churches associated with the Calvary Chapel movement are usually solid. All you can do is try different churches in your area and ask questions about their leadership structure and ask yourself, "do they teach the Bible?" Do they have a high value of Scripture ? And depend on the Holy Spirit to lead you.
I see the biggest problem being the wolves professing to be these apostles. The Messed Up Church has a video of the NAR leaders anointing Todd Bentley as a new apostle within the movement, one of the leaders being Bill Johnson/Bethel.
Thanks everyone. Really enjoy the interaction with each other and the exploration of the difference nuances of our body of Christ. It's great to see Jesus acknowledged as the head, and everyone in humble submission to His Lordship, and the esteeming of one another. It is a blessing to witness. Sometimes I wonder if the Father doesn't put on Cheech and Chong and listen to the part when the Sister is trying to get the unruly class's attention. "Class, ….Class,.....Class...CLASSSSSS! Thank you." I hope that is not too out there. But we, as a living organism are always changing, and it is interesting to watch from a paradigm of individual growth. I've witnessed, and been, like a child growing up. We as a body have, too. You can often tell the maturity of a child by listening to how they speak. Starting at infancy, it is always about them. "I'm hungry. I'm tired. I'm cold. etc." They scream because they are not yet skilled with speech. When they get around 2, or so, it's …"my toy. My food. I want it. Look at me. Etc." Then, we continue the progression. My experience is that the hearts may be very true, and with good intention; but the maturity is lacking. This gets more dangerous the older the child of God gets, because of the kingdom they are exploring is exciting. When the teenager gets to that point that "they have it together, and mom and dad just don't get it", that's when we really must call on the wisdom, mercies, grace, and power of Christ to direct us. Lucifer comes "as" an angel of light. If we don't have the wisdom and experience to discern the good and the evil, we are succeptable to jump right in. That's about when the teenager sneaks the keys to the car out, and takes off and finds all kinds of mischievious things out there. When it comes to the miraculous, and manifestations of the Spirit of God, power is exciting! It's like an intoxicant. We can become drunk in our own selves, all the time saying, or thinking it is God. God promised, and does, move through His willing vessels in powerful and extranormal ways. But, just as Jesus learned obedience through the things that He suffered, so is our journey. We must humble ourselves, turn from what we think should be done; and look to our Father. Jesus spoke what He heard the Father say; and He did what He saw the Father do. That is our example. I must decrease, that He might increase. Paul gloried in His weakness. What? That doesn't preach well in some circles, ha. But the issue of God's plan in sending us "THE WORD", was to communicate to us in the way we would understand. His entire goal was to make the Way for us to come back into His presence, without shame, and in the confidence of His love for us. He knew that if He sowed the Word of love in us, He would eventually reap the harvest of love back from us, and we would willing look to Him for all things. But we keep getting caught up in ourselves. Our theology, our power, our holiness, our righteousness(in Him), etc. It is time we all grow up into the fulness of His nature. We are born of His seed! We just need to get out of His way, and quit frustrating His grace. He is faithful who began the work in us, to complete it. We have received grace. We need to extend more of it to others. We need His heart. Bless The Remnant, and all the brothers and sisters they bring on. We are all on one team. We are well rehearsed in seeing the faults in others. As we tend to our heart with Him, He will tend to His flock through us; in spite of us. He is AWESOME! Much love, you guys. Many blessings. John
@@margocarmichael6765 Often, but not always, an indicator of strong souls. Not the meek, quiet, and humble spirits of the Lord. Stay in the peace. Listen for that still, small voice. Be still, and know that our Lord Jesus Christ and His Father is God. Labor to enter into His rest. Much love
I am so confused and I need to talk to someone. What you’re saying makes sense, but I’ve never heard some of the people listed on the NAR website say the things that are being stated in this video. I want to name names but I also don’t want to…but I desperately need to understand. Following Jesus shouldn’t be this difficult. Please know I’m not taking jabs or trying to be disrespectful, I’m just confused and frustrated and want it to make sense.
Back in the 70's some of the non denominational churches were true to th Word. They evolved in accepting Dominionism slowly! Certain leaders came and brought this into certain non denominational churches. Over the years it has become stronger and louder. More error has come in. More are accepting the NAR
I attended a nar church for several years; they never taught apostles and prophets are authorized to bring new revelation in addition to the bible that's on par with the bible. But Douglas' representation was pretty on point to my experience
There is NO new revelation, the scriptures are closed! God speaks thru the scriptures concerning all that was in his mind that he wanted us to know. In these last days God has spoken thru his son Jesus! We are to listen to him and him alone not all these Johnny come lately's who say that God has given them new revelation. God has given us everything we need to know about him in scripture as well as the way to salvation and why and whom it is found in. He has given us everything we need to live for and follow Christ! To add to or subtract from God's word is a serious thing and those who do place themselves in a bad way with God
I don't know what to think of NAR yet, but good interview, and I'm just learning of NAR almost four years after your posting. I can see the dangers of NAR and some advantages of NAR and I can also see how something like NAR could also be used for a one world order form of religion. I'm so grateful I'm studying Messianic Judaism because Judaism doesn't have to deal with so many false teachings that the Gentile world does, who knows nothing of Torah and Judaism and Hebrew, the original language of the Bible and of God. Prior to studying Messianic Judaism, I went to an Assembly of God college and was raised Lutheran, so I am diversified, but God has directed me to stay with Israel and the God of Israel when He saw me struggling with so many false teachings in the Christian churches. I guess I'm a "B" class Christian in the eyes of the NAR leaders, lol. BTW God doesn't put classes on people. God says He is no respecter of persons, meaning He will use whomever He will for His purpose, for His names sake.
All in all I'm going to give this interview a thumbs up bc I'm thankful that Holly and Doug had so much evidence and facts and quotes and it educated your followers. I would recommend that you guys read their book in a more committed way. I was completely disappointed by the Elijah Rivers interview bc he gave unsatisfactory answers and was very convincing and no one questioned him properly bc he was so charismatic in his delivery. No one held his feet to the fire to make him explain his defenses. Nar teachings are super dangerous and the heresies coming out of Bethel are more real than y'all have been willing to admit to. I know their teachings are damaging bc i was one of those that was misled and hurt and oppressed by their "leadership and pastoring". I'm thankful y'all pointed out the "strange fire conference", I highly recommend reading "Defining Deception" by Costi Hinn. I'm thankful y'all gave Holly and Doug a platform. Hoping in the future you will not give Bethel the pass you typically give them. Their leadership damages people and families and churches. My church split like 3 times so far since I've been there bc of Bethel teachings influencing several of our leaders. Bethel, BSSM & IHOP are divisive. Hope to see more truth and discernment in the future. I'll try not to unsubscribe.
I am just listening to this video posted 2 yrs ago. I have no idea what NAR is other than what I heard here. I live in the southern bible belt. There is s church on every street corner mostly Baptist and Presbyterian and the leadership talked about here with NAR I see in the Baptist church. They don't believe in the spiritual part because most believe those passed but they believe that they are head and know one is above them. I was actually going to a ladies group with one Baptist church and discussion was not allowed because it could lead to something that the pastor does not agree with.
All the systems that I have researched that have awarded themselves the title of “apostle” or “apostolic” filter the Bible through the so called apostle(s). Cults generally do this. That is the concepts in Scripture are complex and supernatural, therefore God requires an anointed individual to interpret meaning and direction.
Well balance ministry you guys have. It in line with my beliefs. If we keep everything in line with the word we can see clearly that the true apostolic has a great sacrifice. When Jesus said go out into the whole world, these super apostles would be covered in warfare. We will know them by their fruit. The arrow is the first part of the weapon to Penetrate the target. It’s not seen after it hits the mark. Supper Apostles are not going to prison for preaching the gospel they’re not being stoned, they are not experiencing shipwrecks, they’re not taking the criticism like they’re supposed to be taking the criticism, they are not experiencing lack, etc. etc. etc..
It is about the misuse (ignorance) or abuse (purposely deceitful) of God’s word. People can say they are not NAR all day, but if you practice it, you “NAR” what you “NAR” - (like that?) We have this nerve in us as fallen people to have authority and also be “the one who hears from God”. When those two things meet, many errors, if not heresy, in our theology comes to life. The “I heard from God” line to validate one’s teaching, rather than the word of God, should make any person take note. We are called to test our teachers and what we hear. I can’t test newly revealed prophetic words. We also live in a culture where we take “already been chewed” doctrines and theology rather than going and “tasting and seeing” for ourselves. Social media has caused people to follow self-proclaimed prophets and apostles online more than falling under the teaching and guidance of their own physical pastor on Sunday. If you are not “word filled”, being spirit led is relative and confusing, which we know God is not a God of disorder. Jesus is the head, and church governing is horizontal, not vertical/hierarchy, which falls under the authority of Christ which is structured and disciplined THROUGH Gods word, not newly revealed things outside of it by people.
Anglicans have bishops (who aren’t understood to be apostles but who hold an apostolic office) in order to preserve the faith that the Apostles gave us. It seems that NAR apostles are making additions to the faith as they see fit.
I thought the church was under leadership of Jesus. Not ppl who think they are boss. I would say don't follow a Moses who says how it should be. Ppl make mistakes. Read the Bible yourself. So important.
So, based on your comment, how do you see church structured and governed in a practical sense? Are you saying it should be run by the consensus of the members?
This almost seems like an overcorrection of NAR, which puts people and concepts in NAR category that are not NAR (if that makes sense). We have to be careful not to see everything through that lens. If we do, we are in danger of calling something the Holy Spirit is doing false. We see this all the time in the Body of Christ.
Not every charismatic is NAR. It's like the new acronym to use for any charismatic that people don't like. Our church is elder-led with a lead pastor who runs the vision. We are not NAR, we are loved and love. No visit to heaven here or controlling apostles (although we believe in the gift of sent-ones).
Apostles don’t exist today. Get away from anyone claiming to be one. It was a temporary position limited to those who were able to give eyewitness testimony to the physical risen Christ. In 1 Corinthians 15:8, the apostle Paul indicates he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission. If God intended the office of apostle to continue beyond the death of the original apostles, He would have instructed them to pass on their mantle to succeeding generations, But they didn’t. With the exception of Matthias, who was chosen to replace Judas as a member of the original 12, the apostles made no attempt to replace their number as they died and went to be with the Lord. In spite of many church denominations creating a different office of church leadership for each term used in the New Testament, the New Testament itself makes little or no distinction between them. For example, bishops and pastors aren’t distinct from elders. The terms are simply different ways of identifying the same office. The Greek word for bishop is episkopos, meaning “overseer” or “guardian”. It’s used in the New Testament five times. The Greek word for pastor is poimen, meaning “shepherd” and emphasises the pastoral role of caring and feeding. All three terms refer to the SAME office as far as the New Testament is concerned. The qualifications for a bishop in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and those for an elder in Titus 1:6-9 are unmistakeably parallel. In fact, in Titus, Paul uses both terms to refer to the same man. 1 Peter 5 verses 1-2 brings all three terms together. Acts 20 also uses all three terms interchangeably. It could be said that the term elder emphasises who the man is. Bishop speaks of what he does, and pastor of his heart toward his flock. All three terms describe aspects of the SAME office.
A great subject. Love it.. Interesting one of my members of my church asked me, if our church had an Apostle? I said, yes its Jesus Christ. A friend of her's said, that if our church didn't have an Apostle we wasn't a church of Jesus Christ. I explained to her thru scripture about this movement. The so called apostles of today. I've never herd anything about this subject until today and what what scripture teaches. Thank you so much.. GBU..
Concerning apostles, please consider this. Apostles, just like the rest of the body are those who labor alongside other elders for the purpose of serving the church with their gifting, exercised in love... The Spirit has uniquely gifted them in these to: PIONEER (Acts 13:2-3), LAY FOUNDATIONS (Ephesians 2:19-20), BUILDERS (1 Corinthians 3:10), LEADERS (by Jesus definition, as servants) (Philippians 1:3-5)
This sounds so much like the Lordship movement from years ago which eventually succumbed to its own errors. People in leadership exercising too much control over others, telling them who they could marry, etc. etc
Cults gotta cult. But not ALL Apostolic Reformation churches hold cult-like control over their sphere of followers. I’d say IHOPKC and Bethel are possibly the worst examples, but others are looser. Depends upon the particular, vision-casting leader.
I don’t think spiritual mapping is wrong. It is actually strategic. What I have a problem with is that it gives the apostle or prophet undue power. Which sums up my problem with NAR. It’s about power for those on top. PS - When someone is looking through their notes, it would be better for them to mute themselves. It was hard to hear the male guest as the female speaker was searching her paperwork.
I like that these men in RemnantRadio are complimentary. I attended an AOG with my husband for 2 years but didn't join because they believe in women pastors and upheld that baptism in the Holy Spirit was initially evident by talking in tongues. I've scoured the scriptures and it talks about baptism in the Holy Spirit but doesn't mean by tongues being evident. In fact Paul said that not everyone will talk in tongues! I had left my Catholic church at age 57. I attend Baptist but don't believe in OSAS or cessationism. I guess there are no true Acts churches to attend.
The West Minister speaks to private revelation as prophetic utterance that one can have from a scriptural passage. John Calvin himself had prophetic insights that many did not in his own writings .They actually call it private revelation but not as equal scripture.
As stated at 30:30, to deny the doctrine of the trinity is heresy and a person is not considered a Christian. So this means that Oneness Pentecostals are not Christians?
This one is tough for me, too. But if you listen to Oneness Pentecostals, they tend to have other errors, too. If you get the Trinity wrong, it makes sense that the rest would be misinterpreted
How much doctrine does one need to be saved? Jesus said whoever beleives… not whoever goes through numerous doctrines that have been driven by the zeal of man
@@blessthelordoflords5886 the point is, you have to believe in the real Jesus and the real Holy Spirit. If you do not study the Bible in context, the Jesus you believe in, and the “Holy Spirit” that slays you, but doesn’t point to Christ’s work on the cross, is a Jesus and Holy Spirit of another kind. A deception.
@@blessthelordoflords5886 that’s why doctrinal differences, baptismal issues, whether another guy is elect or not, are all secondary. We must figure out our salvation in fear and trembling.
Interesting, it sounds like a twisting of words to gain power. I do think it’s a shame that I have not come across a church that is Bibically strong but also open to Spiritual gifts. There always seems to be an extreme. I think a major part of the error of NAR is the assumption that they could ‘handover’ a world the Jesus or that His return us reliant upon them. Jesus is very clear about what will happen in the end times and it does not include dominion of the 5 peaks. This NAR view of end times dictates their assuming of power. Ultimately pride and distraction. The Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit do not submit to man! It is the other way around. There is only one manipulator and that is satan.
So in the first century, there were Apostles of Christ, Peter, John etc, and then apostles, Barnabae, Apollo’s, etc. in the passage in Eph 4, is the office of apostle referring to the first, second, or both?
I'm with these guys who explained to me how they believe that the church has pastors teachers in evangelist . But not apostles and prophets. When did those two positions stop being part of the church leadership. when I read Ephesians 411 it says these five ministries will be around until the churches brought into unity. We ain't seen that.
This is very troubling indeed! These NAR people would dare to suggest that they and they alone have the inside track to all things God and the kingdom! I know a cult when I see one! No thanks. I’ve been considering an Assemblies of God near by who’s pastor seems solid. But I do feel the need to properly vet. This podcast has helped to equip me when I talk to him . Thank you
This was a good discussion with Josh pushing back and questioning and challenging. I would ask that he treated ALL guests the same. As the hosts seemed to ‘fan-girl’ or at least feed Todd White, also letting Elijah (from Bethel) off the hook. I accept these weren’t as charasmatic as some of your other guests. Consistency would be great. Thanks.
Great episode fellas. Have you remnant guys done an episode on the doctrine of decreeing and declaring and it’s historical development and biblical support?
The fact that the hosts are such Bethel and Ihop and BSSM sympathetics is why some of my friends won't watch these interviews at all anymore. And to be honest, I can't handle it very much longer either. The hosts don't have good discernment. Truth can slap them in the face on these specific topics connected to these specific "ministries" and they'll justify these ministries until they're blue in the face.
I think you may be confused friend. I would like to hear a single example of me endorsing the ministry of Bethel, I hop, or BSSM? In fact, we start the show by saying we disagree with the people we interview.
@@TheRemnantRadio Ive seen several shows. It comes across like you are covering for these kinds of ministries. You might want to pray about it. The interview with Randy Clark was an example.
Good stuff guys. One question, where is the Board in the NT or OT? Im just saying..... The only possible reference I have is a negative connotation ....in Laodicea which means "people rulers". Across the OT and NT God moved through individuals not boards and sometimes they hinder movements of God. God never spoke to the people, God spoke to Moses. And when the people tried to overthrow Moses the earth opened up. On the other hand, if you have ever been burned by a leader...which I too have been..very badly...which leads to a good desire to have accountability so we dont end up with heresies or damage to the body of Christ. I also think a board "could" be useful. However, if you are looking at a STRICTLY Scriptural point of view...where is it in the WORD?... who was Pauls Board? Moses had a board? Joshua? David? Elijah? Elisha? Titus? Timothy? I havent found it...although it may have merit. But what kind of people are we? Are we being equipped and submissive and in unity or do we fear the fall of man and set up a system "just in case he fails" to give him the boot. Are we hearing from God or are we operating out of fear.....? The closest thing you can say Scripturally to accoubtability beyond the pastoral is true apostolic leadership. Paul looked to the Jerusalem apostles whom He submitted to. Originally he was sent forth as an Apostle by the Holy Spirit in Acts 13...since it seems there were no apostles in that church, the Holy Spirit working all by himself with full authority. Also look to Titus and Timothy and others who never questioned Paul as Apostle would often "set things in order" performing his apostolic ministry while revealing the unsearchable riches of Christ to the body of Christ...as apostles should. I am not suggesting we take away accountability, but can we not hold men and women of God we esteem accountable ourselves by the word of God without the man made red tape? Have we become "people RULERS?" I assume we are talking about geniune men and women of God whom God has called to equip the saints. That being said, if you emphasis apostolic and prophetic ministry over the other ascension gifts...you can also get into error. There needs to be balance and all 5 fold ministries exist to equip the saints for ministry. God bless everyone, and may we all keep "Looking to Jesus the author and perfector of our faith".
If we could do greater works than Jesus in the sense of miracles then by the same logic we would be claiming to be able to do greater works than the cross. That’s blasphemy, beloved. Who am I? No one. Yet, I believe Jesus was speaking about the greater in number as the gospel is proclaimed, not greater in magnitude.
Interesting interview. Good job on all sides. Keep up the good work. Reading these comments trashing either side or ones unhappy with how their supporting side treats the other too nicely. Geez...
Great dialogue, I’d like counter the argument/conversation between 40-45 minutes...would we have postured ourself with the Pharisees when Jesus stated I will tear down this temple and rebuild it in 3 days? Also during that same segment--who gets to dictate and decide what the writers of scripture were implying when it was written, like Holly’s illustration concerning IHOP and Psalms 27:4??
Pharisees were chastised by Christ, repeatedly, for ADDING works and rules to an already-impossible Law of God, and they also elevated themselves to “celebrity” status, drawing attention to themselves. Pharisees were not chastised for knowing and upholding Scripture. So, keeping that in mind, it illuminates issues when leaders criticize people for being too serious about, or checking their teachings and actions against Scripture. It also brings into stark contrast with Scripture, the emphasize they place upon miracles, works, honoring leaders (not questioning or criticizing them), etc.
+I have heard Bill Johnson say that Jesus performed His miracles as a man.+. If anyone needs that quote, I’ll happily pull it and post it here. Again. That Johnson has specifically taught a kenotic Christ is neither new, nor secret.
@@KristiLEvans1 right . Which is what Bill Johnson believes although it may have been worded poorly initially. He has clarified since. Watch Remnant Radio episode with Randy Clark
@@prayingpilot3806 he doesn’t. Johnson is a diabolical man. I’ll post the clip, because he couldn’t have been clearer that Jesus performed his miracles as a man in right relationship with the Father. That’s kenosis. That’s the opposite of fully God AND fully man.
I agree with most of what you say regarding abuse and error in the church. However, what the Lord showed me is using the term 'NAR' as a broad stroke is unfair and also constitutes spiritual ABUSE of His bride because it is not based on the FULL TRUTH. Let us pray for repentance on all sides. Amen.
Some churches say that they are not NAR but the pastor sets himself herself up in apostolic very authoritarian role and what they say lacks biblical basis
NAR agrees with you, as they deny the existence of NAR. Deception is here and when you are deceived, you don't know you are deceived, your only hope is you hear God's actual truth (THE BIBLE) from people who love God, love the Bible, and love those who are deceived, enough to share with them the truth that sets them free. i.e. Biblical truth, even though they know many will hate them for it. That is precisely what Jesus did for us: showed us the truth even though we hated him. That is love.
@@dubyag4124 whether NAR agrees or not doesn't mean a point is right or wrong in and of itself. NAR churches believe in the power of God, the love ot God, the Trinity, the forgiveness of sins, the cross and the ressurection of Jesus, no Christian is going to start denying these just because some churches we don't like believe in them.
I go to Che Ahn’s church…so I guess I’m pretty sure I go to a NAR church…lol. I’ve always thought some of the Nar stuff was unnecessary accessories to the gospel, that previous to now, I thought were just a specific churches preferences or different language they use. A lot of this stuff is not emphasized in the services or to the congregation. However, Doug and Holly are very right about people’s dependence on leaders, and about their not being confident in reading and understanding the bible themselves, which are huge issues. There’s certain things about my church, Bethel, and the like, that I’ve felt were way off, and now I realize these are all the NAR factors. Thinking about switching to a Calvary Chapel or something less NARly 😉
Be cautious of Calvary Chapels also. We have one locally that we are concerned that the Pastor is in danger of exercising too much power…rather than all the pastors and elders working together.
You need to set audio levels better. All participants have different settings requiring extreme volume adjustment for each speaker. Especially dude on left. Nearly inaudible.
One of the weak points of criticism against NAR is the denial of a government office for prophets and apostle's, yet not for pastors and teachers. Both sides of the issue have completely overlooked my office of evangelist. The church has yet to even restore the evangelist to the staff of leaders, let alone the higher officers of prophets and apostle's.
Evangelist is not an office of leadership within the church. The NT is clear that church is governed by (a plurality of) elders, supported by deacons. Evangelism is a vital part of what church should do (the church needs those who have the gift of evangelism), but the role of evangelist is not a role in the leadership and governance of church.
Thank you for your help walking through these land mines. Do any of you know Dr. Joe Boot? I am wondering if you hear him espousing the same mindset toward “winning the world” as do the NAR, minus the Apostles and Prophets?
Very interesting discussion.
If you like poor scholarship, conspiracy theory, one logical fallacy after another and false accusations while misrepresenting men of God's positions, then yeah, very interesting.
If you mean a discussion about a new heretical group, very interesting indeed.
Came out of a NAR church this year after the 5 that I served here in NJ under chuck pierce, che ahn I am so thankful to God my eyes have been truly open after studying Micah 3, Jeremiah 23, 2 Timothy 3. There was an extreme emphasis put on his prophetic words tied in with Hebraic Roots and Gematria that chuck would prophesy and that breed competition amongst the body of the church to prophesy… they embraced the c peter wagner eschatology., dominion theology seven mountain mandate, complete exegesis of Gods Holy Word. God is Sovereign I am saved by God alone, in Christ alone! Thank you for posting this video it’s very informative
Thank you guys. As a therapist, I have so many individuals who put the church before family, health, finances and common sense. It’s lethal to those who run on emotion and hype.
My Grandparents were in a church like that. They even left their very small estate (they were very poor their whole lives) to their church rather than to their 7 children and dozens of grandchildren. Their church came before anyone else.
Thank you for sharing that. I was in a Word of Faith church, similar to NAR, for years and saw many people get seriously hurt by this theology. Some even died physically as a result because they were told to believe God for healing and didn't seek medical help. I lost a good friend that way.
@@juliannebrancadora3476I’m watching an acquaintance get sick and depressed because she won’t admit that she pulled herself off of meds and a cpap, God didn’t suddenly heal her. These people can be dangerous to impressionable and lonely people
I deeply appreciate the ministry of Remnant Radio and what I see as a genuine attempt from two charismatic brothers in Christ who are , in this episode, trying to bring balance and clarification on how a a biblically orthodox Christian who holds to the perpetuity of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit today can reconcile issues/teachings lurking within the charismatic church that that are of paramount concern.
As a charismatic and one whose has a number of family members who are leaders within this NAR movement... there are some critically important topics that are not being discussed. A few minutes at best was spent on the Christology of those who would identify themselves as leaders within this movement . They do Not define The Gospel in a biblically orthodox sense. Their framework is Signs/Wonders/Miracles and Existential Experience. They look at scripture through this lens and although they may give lip service to agreeing to a form of Sola Scriptura, they preach something very different. The message of The Gospel is so often redefined in this movement as being a function of signs ans wonders . Now the Remnant Radio Hosts can look at a doctrinal statement on the websites if these NAR churches and see that it is orthodox ... but this is what their teachings demonstrate on a regular basis.
I , like the Remnant Hosts, have absolutely no interest in as reject the practice of engaging in red herrings personal attacks.
However, there are some very real problems with the teachings that are proposed by the NAR ans Remnant Radio has just touched the surface.
Finally... there is a very, very concerning aversion to systematic , exegetical Bible teaching in these churches . They absolutely favor the elevation of their experiences .. often very mystical in nature .. over the final revelation of Holy Scripture . This is why, in part, I believe that there is such wide spread biblical illiteracy within these churches .... and this is what creates the breeding ground for all kinds of teachings that depart from biblical orthodoxy . Instead of allowing their spiritual experiences he judged by and flow out of a deep foundation in Scripture : They do just the OPPOSITE ... elevating their experiences and the words of their governing apostles and prophets to dictate the core of their doctrinal positions .
So I ask Remnant Radio, as a fellow Charismatic Believer, your work is Not done on this issue.... please continue the conversation ... because there are many trapped in areas of deception that need to hear the truth from those who they would see as ones “ in their own camp”.. God Bless You Guys
Yes! Very well said, these teachings are dangerous- as Paul says "a little leaven leavens the whole batch" .
Thank you Elizabeth. Yes this is very true .
I was recently in a NAR type church & among other disturbing things there is a huge aversion to a lack of scriptural/Biblical teaching. Biblical sound bites taken out of context, buzz words assumed to be true without explaining them, abuse of authority due to claimed Apostle authority. Basically whack!
1:04:16 "I don't know what that even means" was probably the best phrase that someone could use when hearing a NAR teachings. Seems to me that this groups always use "elevated pompous" words to make people think they are really very deep and very spiritual, but in reality they are not. They are just saying things of their own imagination.
NAR are infiltrating my Assembly of God Church. Two have been recruiting me and some other women in the Ladies Bible Study. Thank you for this valuable information. I'm going to tell them to take a hike.
@catfour...can you explain what you mean by recruitment. Also is it other ladies in your BS?
The ladies Bible study is evidently a place where the enemy is sitting easily. Big issue there.
I’m seeing high profile A/G leaders fall for this nonsense…
I’ve known several of them very well for many years, and am just shocked that they would buy into this.
Ladies Bible studies seem to be the infiltration point. Never met a pastor, evangelist, teacher ,or even an Apostle. They all claim Prophet status. They have now made an Exodus from our numbers. We love and miss them, but do not adhere to or affirm this doctrine in our church.
Have a real problem with people like this who do not believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit is for today the gifts of the spirit or not for the day. To me these two are nothing but gossipers. Unless you've sat down with every single person you claimed that are prophets and apostles. And have actual quotes from them personally. You have no business making claims those of us in the charismatic movement are aware of many of the abuses that we see taking place. Just last night I was flipping through the channels and came across some guide promising protection by God against evil forces if you give him money. So forth. Let us let people like Dr. Brown who have been speaking out against the abuses in the church and like remnant radio has done also in recent times. These two people have no business trying to explain something that they'vedisagree with in the first place and reject whole chapters of the Bible about the gifts of the spirit.
This topic begins at 10:13 You're welcome 🙂
You read my mind. Thank you.
Ty
We went through these very same teachings in the early 1980's. I was falsely prophesied over by the Pastor's wife that I would not conceive a baby until I would submit my life to the authority of the pastor. She did not know that I was pregnant and had just not told her. Our baby will be 40 this year. The Covering ministry and all it entailed was extremely controlling and caused a lot of division. We wrote Dr. Walter Martin and told him what was going on in our church. He wrote us a handwritten letter on paper from a yellow legal pad. He advised us to leave, and he said he considered these types of churches to be "Christian cults". I think it was hard for him to say that. Our church was part of a Pentecostal denomination, and from what I remember, the leaders of the denomination did not approve of what was going on. The sad thing is that we were part of 10 fellowships that had been planted under one church. They are all gone. It destroyed our fellowship and it is no longer there. We thank the Lord that HE kept us in His hand and revealed truth to us. We were so young. We left the ministry as associate pastors.
I've always enjoyed Walter Martians teachings on cults and so forth. It sounds like to me you were in a church that was falsely teaching the roles of leadership. Back in the late 70s we have what was called the shepherding doctrine. These man-made doctrines that exalt men to positions above others in the church Where you must submit to them without question is not of God. This type of leadership abuse happens in every denomination in history. That's why we must follow Jesus. And learn to listen for his voice
I just started reading their book. Last week, I heard Dr. Michael Heiser interview Holly Pivec on the “NAR” movement. Awesome interview.
I can't find the video you referred to. Can you send a link? Thanks
@8:17, man! Holly nailed it! I was in a NAR church for almost ten years, and that's exactly what they preached week in and week out!
Wow what a great interview. All the hosts and guest articulated the issues well. I was delivered from the Mecca of NAR movement years ago and can attest that these are indeed all the various elements and issues that messed me up so bad.
I attend a "nar" church (catch the fire) and nothing wrong . I've been blessed, healed there.
@@paulc7190 yes. And the glory for what you got out of it, goes to the church and/or your particular leader.
8:14 Is where they define what NAR is, never heard of this before this video. Thanks for posting and your coverage on this! Another reason why I love God giving us scripture, one of the main OG apostle's Paul said, not to follow him but Jesus (1 cor 13)
Modern translation: NAR'p dog, I'm good, I follow Jesus :D
Not all errors can be undone or forgiven with "oh, that wasn't what I meant - this is what I really mean." If we always allow that, then we will never be able to hold false teachers to account. And if the statement truly was a misspeak and not intentional, then forgiveness can happen, but there still needs to be some amount of consequence as well. She brought you the proof, don't just hand-wave it away.
Great interview 😊 I would say as a former leader in an NAR church that there is not just error, but actual heresy being frequently taught. The perspective of a former insider is different than what can be appreciated from an outside survey.
Definitely many teachings condemned by God in Deuteronomy 18 are commonly encouraged, taught and seen at most services. I will gladly provide examples via email if you are wanting more information. I don’t want to leave an annoyingly long comment 😄
If you don't mind, could you still provide at least a few in a follow up Comment? 😁 I left an NAR. Church 8 or 9 years ago and have been documenting my personal experiences to help inform people who I know are currently in that belief system. I'd just like to hear someone else's examples if that's okay. Thank you! (P.S. I know you mentioned emailing but if you can share any in a follow up Comment here, I'd appreciate it.)
@@wisewoman4950 hi! Sorry this is long 😬
Essential doctrines are ones that you must affirm in order to be considered within the Christian faith. These cannot be denied or redefined. A redefinition can be straight forward or can occur using double speak, meaning affirming the orthodox view but denying it with the subsequent statements and surrounding context. You will see double speak many times, not only in NAR oral teaching but also in their written materials . That’s why we must know what the Bible teaches and know the creeds to help us discern. (Side note one of the hosts keeps mispronouncing chalcedonian in all the videos, the h is silent).
It’s easy to tell lies that are obvious from the truth. The Bible tells us that satan comes as an angel of light, so we should expect false teachers to use truth mixed in with lies.
Leaders at my former church were required to read materials from known NAR teachers to “ understand the core beliefs of --- church” quote from the leaders manual.
Two books that you can research are “When Heaven Invades Earth” and the sequel “ The Supernatural Power of the Transformed Mind”. These are basically the NAR’s manifestos. Many teachers in the NAR repeat verbatim doctrines from those books. Get them used to avoid generating them money.
Of note “ When Heaven Invades Earth” has a tenth anniversary edition. If Bill Johnson really did not mean what he initially wrote that would be the place to correct his teaching, however no changes were made to the portions where core doctrines were altered.
Essential doctrines of the Christian faith redefined in NAR teachings ( only a few examples)
1.Christ’s deity and Christ’s humanity: The teaching of the hypostatic union is distorted in both books. See chapter 2 of “ When Heaven Invades Earth”. This is a clear example of double speak. Bill states the orthodox view but all the surrounding statements are contrary to what he just stated. There should be no buts or qualifiers after stating Jesus was 100% God. I disagree with the hosts that Bill has explained this as this was not changed in the 10th anniversary edition and he continues to teach it( check out Hillsong Conference 2019 footage)
2.Necessity of grace: Original sin is downplayed and presented differently from what the Bible teaches. One example is found in the chapter Guilt-free and forgiven of “ The Supernatural Power of the transformed mind”
3.Christ’s atoning death: this is also redefined in both books. The miracle of salvation is devalued. Instead what you see is this concept that cross was a way to receive healing and prosperity now. The goal is to heal everyone you pray for, what a terrible burden and misunderstanding of atonement. Also if you redefine the necessity of grace the doctrine of atonement is altered.
I have not seen a denial of the trinity in the written material, but there is a misrepresentation of it. The three persons of the trinity ALWAYS work together. If they did not then our God would be schizophrenic. By teaching a misunderstood view of Jesus the doctrine of the trinity is redefined. An example is in chapter 2 of When Heaven invades earth”. Bill quotes John 5:9 “ the Son can do nothing”. If you understand that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit always agree and work together, then you understand what this verse really means. Instead he uses it to put down Jesus’ glory, power and equal position within the Godhead.
@@ruthmarie1899 Thank you for taking the time to share this information. I was wanting to know what you have experienced.
@@ruthmarie1899 Thanks for sharing!
The church I attended those years ago never expressly taught Bill Johnson's works if I remember correctly. You see I live in Nigeria (Africa) and we have different strains of the same issue.
My country is predominantly influenced by Word of Faith and prosperity gospel teachings which are expressed in varying degrees. Our African traditional religious context also gives room for mixing with extreme Charismaticism. I've seen a church leader here be a part of a conference in which Bill Johnson was also speaking and I've seen the fruit that followed.
I agree completely about the double speak. That's why I didn't agree entirely with the hosts or the guests about the level of danger. I see heresy as a possibility in these places. In some cases it's express, and in others it's a "only a matter of time" sort of thing.
The sovereignty of God is one of the biggest issues. Versus man's authority which they overplay. You'd see the practice of elevating leaders to god status. Consistent with the teachings of course.
A lot of spiritual abuse. Finance mishandling, greed, false and dangerous spiritual experiences and practices and so on and so forth.
Sometimes I wish the deception was more obvious so more people would be put off. In my country that's all many people know - the NAR and NARish teachings. Many grow up in it and fail to see how false it is. Combined with a culture where people aren't encouraged to speak out against leaders, it's the perfect condition for disaster.
Thank you for taking the time to share! I really appreciate it. ❤️
@@pasaspace4029 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-
Romans 5:12 NIV
romans.bible/romans-5-12
Sin entered the world through Adam's sin. Only Christ Jesus was born sinless. And He never sinned.
The Psalmist paints a picture of this in the Psalms:
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Psalms 51:5 NKJV
bible.com/bible/114/psa.51.5.NKJV
But the Bible says,
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:18-19 NKJV
bible.com/bible/114/rom.5.18-19.NKJV
I hope this helps!
Praise God for you guys!
This is really an excellent conversation. I truly appreciate the spot on questions that were being asked. These are precisely the questions I’ve been asking as I’m studying these issues. Thanks for this 🙏🏻❤️
Is falsely interpreting scripture she says nowhere in Ephesians 411 does talk about these offices continuing when it says that until the church reaches unity. And we don't have unity yet today.
That is not true they do not make a distinction between Pentecostal Carismatic leaders and those who are supposed NAR . Dr. Dr. Brown Heidi Baker and others have said I'm a what?? These two have labeled so many people as part of something that they're not. And in my opinion both of these two need to be rebuked and seen as nothing but gossipers and dividing the church
Would you say that Holly and Doug are following heresy since they do not believe in the gifts of the spirit are for today.
Holly makes claims about so-called profits interpreting scriptures in a new way. But she gives no examples of how people are doing that.
I had been part of a Christian charismatic community between 1974 & 1989, some of who lived in-house together. I left this community in 1989 because it ticked every box of what a cult is. This does not mean the Lord did not use some leaders of the community in sharing the gospel and recovery of the gifts of the Spirit and renewal in the church in South Africa. Rather, its adherence to and practise of the Shepherding movement led to cultish practices and broken lives.
I mention this, because as I began to watch your video my stomach clenched and my breathing became shallow. Why? Because just the little that was said in the first minutes of your video reminded me of what occurred from 1980 in South Africa when the "offices" of apostle and prophet began to be elevated beyond their scriptural meaning. And this, I believe, was the seed bed of the NAR movement in South Africa. In fact, I heard that the son of one of the leaders now leads such a church.
My personal opinion - and I dare to say this because of my own experience - is that the NAR has demonic roots, for, its most significant trait is control and manipulation.
In their humility, the apostles Paul and Barnabas were not controlling, nor did they Lord it over congregations. But in humility they built up that part of the body of Christ that came about through the sharing of the gospel, even though strongly worded letters were written. Yet, even as those words were written Paul tempered them with pleading, not top/down heavy handedness.
I was at a meeting with Bob Jones and others about 15 years ago near Boston. I don't remember who prophesied and taught that anyone who came against the apostles and prophets would be destroyed. They also taught that they would come against the "religious" church. I have to pull out my journals as I probably wrote it down. It was a serious threat to be concerned about. It came across as a direct threat and not that it would be just a spiritual judgement. It was and is very concerning.
Read the book of Mishel Mccumber: The view beneath.
And there is a video where Bob Jones teaches astral traveling. 😬 I'm absolutely not against the prophetic. But I also know the pitfalls...
@@Henriette-van-der-Ende I have read Mishel's book. I always felt uneasy about Bob Jones. I have walked away from that group a number of years ago when my pastor started getting into exploring the occult to see what Christianity could learn from it. Back to the Bible!
@@Henriette-van-der-Ende Mishel has a great news pod cast on Rumble. "Deceptionbytes". Do you follow her there?
@@marydawson824 in 2003 I was at a conference of morning Star in The Netherlands, my country. And they teached astral traveling 😬
One of the major errors that I see is that they will put personal experience above the Word of God.
@Dustin Neely, "NAR seems more like the early gnostics with all these "hidden" or "esoteric" teachings." - Right on bro, great point.
I think you are right on with this, I am reminded of Paul's words to Timothy: "The things which you have heard from me IN THE PRESENCE OF MANY WITNESSES, entrust these to faithful [b]people who will be able to teach others also." - 2 Timothy 2:2
I believe there are many abuses within the charismatic movement, however my issue with Holly and Doug in this interview, and every other time I've heard them interviewed is that they are making critiques without any scriptural reference. You can categorize something all day long and say, "This is what I don't like," or "This isn't good," but without any comparison to what its actually supposed to look like according to scripture, how is this any different than supposed NAR individuals teaching things that are not scriptural (which is Holly and Doug's critique)? How is that helpful? How is that equipping the body of Christ?
I have yet to read their book, so maybe they do a better job of actually using scripture there. But even when the hosts asked them outright what an organization could do to become un-NAR they couldn't give a distinct or scriptural answer, except to tell churches, more or less, to deny the functional existence of apostles.
This really seems to indicate that although they may have some legitimate concerns about abuses within the charismatic movement (concerns which I share), overall they just don't approve of continuationism as it relates to the existence of the specific gifts of apostles and prophets in any functional capacity. I've yet to hear them describe how these gifts DO function in a biblical way. I think the real issue is partial cessationism, and an inability or unwillingness to disseminate these particular gifts in a functional way. Until they can address how these gifts DO exist and function in a healthy way within the body, I'm not sure this information is going to help the church grow into maturity like they are claiming.
If they believe in partial cessationism, let's have that conversation. We can respectfully disagree about that based on our interpretations of scripture. From there we can discuss applications that are healthy or unhealthy. But let's not beat around the bush and label everyone who believes that apostles and prophets exist along with the other gifts as a heretic. I think a mature critique of the charismatic movement should include more practical and BIBLICAL information, rather than treating the entire movement like it's a cult that we simply have to "get people out of."
As a comparison, when Remnant Radio has had Steven Bancarz on the program to identify new age practices and ideology in the church every single element he categorizes or describes is always compared to what scripture actually says about these topics. Holly and Doug don't seem to be able to do that. As teachers claiming to police the body of Christ , that's concerning.
I had similar issues with their arguments as well.
Pin this comment!
Boy did you hit that nail on the head totally agree with you. I would like to hear your definition of partial cessationism. does that mean they believe in healing but they don't believe in the rest of the gifts of the spirit.
Thank you very much guys.✌️ Sending greetings from Poland 🇵🇱. 😇
After being a disciple of Jesus for 64 years and a graduate from Bible College and seminary and being a professor and Dean of a Bible College and seminary I have left all Western Institutional Christianity . I still love Jesus and all His people but screw all the institutions and its leaders. Would love to find a group of believes who want to do it by the Bible alone. What do you think? GWR Someone answer me
If John Wimber were alive today, he would be thrown into the NAR group. There are abuses and false teaching, but you can find those things in every church. I believe the church has continued to grow a heart of stone towards the charismatic community and it grows worse every year. The American Gospel is the obsession with rational thought and only preaching what they’ve experienced over what the Word says. I believe that people like Heidi Baker and John Wimber do more for God than the people complaining about Bill Johnson
You raise a good point that is not addressed in Holly and Doug’s book and barely even addresses by any critics at all: what about the good works and the good fruit of many of their works? It is not to say that one would cancel out the other, but not even mentioning it is clearly showing a bias on the subject in the first place.
These teachers you mention are dangerous. Especially Heidi baker. I was in nar for many years. They are not teaching the bible.
Guys, respectfully, y’all kept interrupting her many many times. It was very hard to hear hear apologize to you after y’all interrupted her over and over again. Please be mindful of this.
Yes, we absolutely could use a New Reformation, one that advance sola Scriptura and adheres to the Word of God in all of its doctrines and teaching, not what some founder of some church that later would become a full-fledged denomination over time taught that the Word of God says with his own interpretations.
No let us return to what the Scripture plainly says, and if there are many passages of scripture that stand against some already held doctrine then that doctrine is wrong, and we do not "rightly divide" the Word of God in such a way that only the scriptures that stand against our doctrine need rightly dividing, while the scriptures that support our doctrine are just fine as they are and do not need rightly dividing, that is confirmation bias to the extreme
There is one group I have debated with many times, they exclaim that the scriptures that stand against their doctrine must be rightly divided... interpreted or explained away so that they no longer stand against their doctrines, while the scriptures that support their doctrines are just fine as they are not needing any rightly dividing.
People are funny when it comes to what has been pounded into their heads decade after decade, they are how to defend their doctrines, and all of the scriptures that stand against them are interpreted or explained away.
It is funny but my KJV says that ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I have no right to meddle with or alter God's Word in any way shape or form to prop up doctrines that the founder of a denomination taught some 400 years ago.
if there is direct scripture that stands against any doctrine then that doctrine is wrong, and it is the doctrine that needs to be brought in line with the Word of God, and not the Word of God brought into line with the doctrine.
If you want to interview a teacher of the seven mountains of influence theology, then the Remnant Radio should interview Lance Wallnau.
Another rank heretic.
The guy teaches Qanon conspiracies now so that would have been a wild show
Great episode, this is super important
Good discussion and very respectful. I think that the Mormons are NAR, according to what my M. friends have taught me. I pray that they will get new prophecy that will lead them to our One God. Biggest danger is giving power to our leaders. Power corrupts and becomes a beast. My advise -stay humble and be a servant, don’t lord your superiority over others.
I would love to see a list of major Charismatic ministers who are NOT classified as “NAR”?
Mike Winger
Matt chandler, John piper
Mike Winger, yes. Melissa daughterty on FB as well. I’m not that familiar with enough outside of NAR to name more. Chandler and Piper are not charismatic, and Chandler has wandered off into CRT.
What is CRT?
I believe Mike Winger is only teaching online. A pastor in my view still needs physical access to his sheep. I know I’d need interaction with mine for any type of fellowship etc. Online is great for learning. Not pastoring. If Mike Winger still pastors a physical body of believers. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Just finished their book...excellent read on the NAR.
A mature Christian can tell after 2 or 3 sermons what the pastor believes about biblical doctrine. If not have a meeting with the pastor and ask him a few yes or no questions abut doctrine. Trouble is so many have never been taught bible doctrine that they can be easily misled and deceived. Truth is North American Christianity is a mess with so many people teaching in churches that should not be pastors.
Amen!
One of the sure fire ways to know is when they are more focused upon the Holy Spirit and talk more about him than focusing on Jesus and talking about him. Another way is when they focus more on knowing God thru experience instead of knowing him thru his word. Another way is when they teach that signs, wonders and miracles must follow the preaching of the gospel or it will not be effective. There are many other ways to know that the NAR proponents preach another gospel and another Jesus
I’d like to see a list of Non NAR pastors that teach in a physical church that I could go and physically worship at and have fellowship with. A list for US, Canada, Europe. Any answers?
Churches associated with the Calvary Chapel movement are usually solid. All you can do is try different churches in your area and ask questions about their leadership structure and ask yourself, "do they teach the Bible?" Do they have a high value of Scripture ? And depend on the Holy Spirit to lead you.
I see the biggest problem being the wolves professing to be these apostles. The Messed Up Church has a video of the NAR leaders anointing Todd Bentley as a new apostle within the movement, one of the leaders being Bill Johnson/Bethel.
Did they get to the part where if your church has a senior pastor who answers to no one then your church is very close to a NAR model.
Thanks everyone. Really enjoy the interaction with each other and the exploration of the difference nuances of our body of Christ. It's great to see Jesus acknowledged as the head, and everyone in humble submission to His Lordship, and the esteeming of one another. It is a blessing to witness. Sometimes I wonder if the Father doesn't put on Cheech and Chong and listen to the part when the Sister is trying to get the unruly class's attention. "Class, ….Class,.....Class...CLASSSSSS! Thank you." I hope that is not too out there. But we, as a living organism are always changing, and it is interesting to watch from a paradigm of individual growth. I've witnessed, and been, like a child growing up. We as a body have, too. You can often tell the maturity of a child by listening to how they speak. Starting at infancy, it is always about them. "I'm hungry. I'm tired. I'm cold. etc." They scream because they are not yet skilled with speech. When they get around 2, or so, it's …"my toy. My food. I want it. Look at me. Etc." Then, we continue the progression. My experience is that the hearts may be very true, and with good intention; but the maturity is lacking. This gets more dangerous the older the child of God gets, because of the kingdom they are exploring is exciting. When the teenager gets to that point that "they have it together, and mom and dad just don't get it", that's when we really must call on the wisdom, mercies, grace, and power of Christ to direct us. Lucifer comes "as" an angel of light. If we don't have the wisdom and experience to discern the good and the evil, we are succeptable to jump right in. That's about when the teenager sneaks the keys to the car out, and takes off and finds all kinds of mischievious things out there. When it comes to the miraculous, and manifestations of the Spirit of God, power is exciting! It's like an intoxicant. We can become drunk in our own selves, all the time saying, or thinking it is God. God promised, and does, move through His willing vessels in powerful and extranormal ways. But, just as Jesus learned obedience through the things that He suffered, so is our journey. We must humble ourselves, turn from what we think should be done; and look to our Father. Jesus spoke what He heard the Father say; and He did what He saw the Father do. That is our example. I must decrease, that He might increase. Paul gloried in His weakness. What? That doesn't preach well in some circles, ha. But the issue of God's plan in sending us "THE WORD", was to communicate to us in the way we would understand. His entire goal was to make the Way for us to come back into His presence, without shame, and in the confidence of His love for us. He knew that if He sowed the Word of love in us, He would eventually reap the harvest of love back from us, and we would willing look to Him for all things. But we keep getting caught up in ourselves. Our theology, our power, our holiness, our righteousness(in Him), etc. It is time we all grow up into the fulness of His nature. We are born of His seed! We just need to get out of His way, and quit frustrating His grace. He is faithful who began the work in us, to complete it. We have received grace. We need to extend more of it to others. We need His heart. Bless The Remnant, and all the brothers and sisters they bring on. We are all on one team. We are well rehearsed in seeing the faults in others. As we tend to our heart with Him, He will tend to His flock through us; in spite of us. He is AWESOME! Much love, you guys. Many blessings. John
Some background noise getting loud.
@@margocarmichael6765 Often, but not always, an indicator of strong souls. Not the meek, quiet, and humble spirits of the Lord. Stay in the peace. Listen for that still, small voice. Be still, and know that our Lord Jesus Christ and His Father is God. Labor to enter into His rest. Much love
The "apostles" in the NAR assume way more authority than even the bishops in Eastern Orthodoxy.
I am so confused and I need to talk to someone. What you’re saying makes sense, but I’ve never heard some of the people listed on the NAR website say the things that are being stated in this video. I want to name names but I also don’t want to…but I desperately need to understand. Following Jesus shouldn’t be this difficult. Please know I’m not taking jabs or trying to be disrespectful, I’m just confused and frustrated and want it to make sense.
Back in the 70's some of the non denominational churches were true to th Word. They evolved in accepting Dominionism slowly! Certain leaders came and brought this into certain non denominational churches. Over the years it has become stronger and louder. More error has come in. More are accepting the NAR
I attended a nar church for several years; they never taught apostles and prophets are authorized to bring new revelation in addition to the bible that's on par with the bible. But Douglas' representation was pretty on point to my experience
There is NO new revelation, the scriptures are closed! God speaks thru the scriptures concerning all that was in his mind that he wanted us to know. In these last days God has spoken thru his son Jesus! We are to listen to him and him alone not all these Johnny come lately's who say that God has given them new revelation. God has given us everything we need to know about him in scripture as well as the way to salvation and why and whom it is found in. He has given us everything we need to live for and follow Christ! To add to or subtract from God's word is a serious thing and those who do place themselves in a bad way with God
Douglas and Holly do a wonderful job, such an important subject.
I don't know what to think of NAR yet, but good interview, and I'm just learning of NAR almost four years after your posting. I can see the dangers of NAR and some advantages of NAR and I can also see how something like NAR could also be used for a one world order form of religion. I'm so grateful I'm studying Messianic Judaism because Judaism doesn't have to deal with so many false teachings that the Gentile world does, who knows nothing of Torah and Judaism and Hebrew, the original language of the Bible and of God. Prior to studying Messianic Judaism, I went to an Assembly of God college and was raised Lutheran, so I am diversified, but God has directed me to stay with Israel and the God of Israel when He saw me struggling with so many false teachings in the Christian churches. I guess I'm a "B" class Christian in the eyes of the NAR leaders, lol. BTW God doesn't put classes on people. God says He is no respecter of persons, meaning He will use whomever He will for His purpose, for His names sake.
All in all I'm going to give this interview a thumbs up bc I'm thankful that Holly and Doug had so much evidence and facts and quotes and it educated your followers. I would recommend that you guys read their book in a more committed way. I was completely disappointed by the Elijah Rivers interview bc he gave unsatisfactory answers and was very convincing and no one questioned him properly bc he was so charismatic in his delivery. No one held his feet to the fire to make him explain his defenses. Nar teachings are super dangerous and the heresies coming out of Bethel are more real than y'all have been willing to admit to. I know their teachings are damaging bc i was one of those that was misled and hurt and oppressed by their "leadership and pastoring". I'm thankful y'all pointed out the "strange fire conference", I highly recommend reading "Defining Deception" by Costi Hinn. I'm thankful y'all gave Holly and Doug a platform. Hoping in the future you will not give Bethel the pass you typically give them. Their leadership damages people and families and churches. My church split like 3 times so far since I've been there bc of Bethel teachings influencing several of our leaders. Bethel, BSSM & IHOP are divisive. Hope to see more truth and discernment in the future. I'll try not to unsubscribe.
What about NAR s definition of anointing? And how the apostles anointing covers the congregation
I am just listening to this video posted 2 yrs ago. I have no idea what NAR is other than what I heard here. I live in the southern bible belt. There is s church on every street corner mostly Baptist and Presbyterian and the leadership talked about here with NAR I see in the Baptist church. They don't believe in the spiritual part because most believe those passed but they believe that they are head and know one is above them. I was actually going to a ladies group with one Baptist church and discussion was not allowed because it could lead to something that the pastor does not agree with.
All the systems that I have researched that have awarded themselves the title of “apostle” or “apostolic” filter the Bible through the so called apostle(s). Cults generally do this. That is the concepts in Scripture are complex and supernatural, therefore God requires an anointed individual to interpret meaning and direction.
Well balance ministry you guys have. It in line with my beliefs.
If we keep everything in line with the word we can see clearly that the true apostolic has a great sacrifice.
When Jesus said go out into the whole world, these super apostles would be covered in warfare. We will know them by their fruit. The arrow is the first part of the weapon to Penetrate the target. It’s not seen after it hits the mark. Supper Apostles are not going to prison for preaching the gospel they’re not being stoned, they are not experiencing shipwrecks, they’re not taking the criticism like they’re supposed to be taking the criticism, they are not experiencing lack, etc. etc. etc..
Very fair and respectful discussion! I really appreciate Remnant Radio and highly recommend the book “God’s Super Apostles” by their guests here.
It is about the misuse (ignorance) or abuse (purposely deceitful) of God’s word. People can say they are not NAR all day, but if you practice it, you “NAR” what you “NAR” - (like that?)
We have this nerve in us as fallen people to have authority and also be “the one who hears from God”. When those two things meet, many errors, if not heresy, in our theology comes to life.
The “I heard from God” line to validate one’s teaching, rather than the word of God, should make any person take note.
We are called to test our teachers and what we hear. I can’t test newly revealed prophetic words. We also live in a culture where we take “already been chewed” doctrines and theology rather than going and “tasting and seeing” for ourselves.
Social media has caused people to follow self-proclaimed prophets and apostles online more than falling under the teaching and guidance of their own physical pastor on Sunday.
If you are not “word filled”, being spirit led is relative and confusing, which we know God is not a God of disorder.
Jesus is the head, and church governing is horizontal, not vertical/hierarchy, which falls under the authority of Christ which is structured and disciplined THROUGH Gods word, not newly revealed things outside of it by people.
👏 👏 👏 👏 👏
Anglicans have bishops (who aren’t understood to be apostles but who hold an apostolic office) in order to preserve the faith that the Apostles gave us. It seems that NAR apostles are making additions to the faith as they see fit.
I thought the church was under leadership of Jesus. Not ppl who think they are boss. I would say don't follow a Moses who says how it should be. Ppl make mistakes. Read the Bible yourself. So important.
So, based on your comment, how do you see church structured and governed in a practical sense?
Are you saying it should be run by the consensus of the members?
1:14:56 Bill Johnson already teaches “damnable heresies” (as they put it). He openly teaches Jesus was born again.
The UPCI is about 40% NAR at this point.
This almost seems like an overcorrection of NAR, which puts people and concepts in NAR category that are not NAR (if that makes sense). We have to be careful not to see everything through that lens. If we do, we are in danger of calling something the Holy Spirit is doing false. We see this all the time in the Body of Christ.
The dependency issue Holly brings up is valid.
Not every charismatic is NAR. It's like the new acronym to use for any charismatic that people don't like. Our church is elder-led with a lead pastor who runs the vision. We are not NAR, we are loved and love. No visit to heaven here or controlling apostles (although we believe in the gift of sent-ones).
So we have pastors which is only spoken one time in the scriptures but not apostels which is spoken many times in the new testament 🤔 does that work ?
Apostles don’t exist today. Get away from anyone claiming to be one. It was a temporary position limited to those who were able to give eyewitness testimony to the physical risen Christ.
In 1 Corinthians 15:8, the apostle Paul indicates he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission. If God intended the office of apostle to continue beyond the death of the original apostles, He would have instructed them to pass on their mantle to succeeding generations, But they didn’t. With the exception of Matthias, who was chosen to replace Judas as a member of the original 12, the apostles made no attempt to replace their number as they died and went to be with the Lord.
In spite of many church denominations creating a different office of church leadership for each term used in the New Testament, the New Testament itself makes little or no distinction between them. For example, bishops and pastors aren’t distinct from elders. The terms are simply different ways of identifying the same office. The Greek word for bishop is episkopos, meaning “overseer” or “guardian”. It’s used in the New Testament five times.
The Greek word for pastor is poimen, meaning “shepherd” and emphasises the pastoral role of caring and feeding. All three terms refer to the SAME office as far as the New Testament is concerned. The qualifications for a bishop in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and those for an elder in Titus 1:6-9 are unmistakeably parallel. In fact, in Titus, Paul uses both terms to refer to the same man.
1 Peter 5 verses 1-2 brings all three terms together. Acts 20 also uses all three terms interchangeably.
It could be said that the term elder emphasises who the man is.
Bishop speaks of what he does,
and pastor of his heart toward his flock.
All three terms describe aspects of the SAME office.
54:35 Wait didn't Derrik Prince also preach about the strongman that needs to be bound?
A great subject. Love it.. Interesting one of my members of my church asked me, if our church had an Apostle? I said, yes its Jesus Christ. A friend of her's said, that if our church didn't have an Apostle we wasn't a church of Jesus Christ. I explained to her thru scripture about this movement. The so called apostles of today. I've never herd anything about this subject until today and what what scripture teaches. Thank you so much.. GBU..
That’s super real friend. If you can contact them I’ll pray for you as you hopefully can keep reaching out to them with love and truth!
@@benreid9523 Thanks...
Our Apostle is Paul, Jesus is our Lord and Savior. Paul’s teachings are meant for the gentiles.
Concerning apostles, please consider this. Apostles, just like the rest of the body are those who labor alongside other elders for the purpose of serving the church with their gifting, exercised in love...
The Spirit has uniquely gifted them in these to: PIONEER (Acts 13:2-3), LAY FOUNDATIONS (Ephesians 2:19-20), BUILDERS (1 Corinthians 3:10), LEADERS (by Jesus definition, as servants) (Philippians 1:3-5)
This sounds so much like the Lordship movement from years ago which eventually succumbed to its own errors. People in leadership exercising too much control over others, telling them who they could marry, etc. etc
Cults gotta cult. But not ALL Apostolic Reformation churches hold cult-like control over their sphere of followers. I’d say IHOPKC and Bethel are possibly the worst examples, but others are looser. Depends upon the particular, vision-casting leader.
Awesome discussion. I was in a NAR ministry and run out of it. Tony Perkins, Jim Garlow are powerful NAR leaders and no one knows. Very deceiving.
Tony Perkins is a NAR adherent?
@@gricklethistle5515yes he is.
I don’t think spiritual mapping is wrong. It is actually strategic. What I have a problem with is that it gives the apostle or prophet undue power. Which sums up my problem with NAR. It’s about power for those on top.
PS - When someone is looking through their notes, it would be better for them to mute themselves. It was hard to hear the male guest as the female speaker was searching her paperwork.
I like that these men in RemnantRadio are complimentary. I attended an AOG with my husband for 2 years but didn't join because they believe in women pastors and upheld that baptism in the Holy Spirit was initially evident by talking in tongues. I've scoured the scriptures and it talks about baptism in the Holy Spirit but doesn't mean by tongues being evident. In fact Paul said that not everyone will talk in tongues! I had left my Catholic church at age 57. I attend Baptist but don't believe in OSAS or cessationism. I guess there are no true Acts churches to attend.
The West Minister speaks to private revelation as prophetic utterance that one can have from a scriptural passage. John Calvin himself had prophetic insights that many did not in his own writings .They actually call it private revelation but not as equal scripture.
I assume these guests weren't charismatic/pentecostal. They appear to blend all beliefs of modern day apostles and prophets with NAR. That's not true.
No thats not true. We actually asked them this question at the 26:20 min mark. They clearly articulate the difference
As stated at 30:30, to deny the doctrine of the trinity is heresy and a person is not considered a Christian. So this means that Oneness Pentecostals are not Christians?
No. They aren’t.
This one is tough for me, too. But if you listen to Oneness Pentecostals, they tend to have other errors, too. If you get the Trinity wrong, it makes sense that the rest would be misinterpreted
How much doctrine does one need to be saved? Jesus said whoever beleives… not whoever goes through numerous doctrines that have been driven by the zeal of man
@@blessthelordoflords5886 the point is, you have to believe in the real Jesus and the real Holy Spirit. If you do not study the Bible in context, the Jesus you believe in, and the “Holy Spirit” that slays you, but doesn’t point to Christ’s work on the cross, is a Jesus and Holy Spirit of another kind. A deception.
@@blessthelordoflords5886 that’s why doctrinal differences, baptismal issues, whether another guy is elect or not, are all secondary. We must figure out our salvation in fear and trembling.
Great discussion! Thank you guys!
NAR is heavily predominant in the church I attend smh. Is Robert Henderson, Randy Demain and Joan Hunter in error?
Interesting, it sounds like a twisting of words to gain power.
I do think it’s a shame that I have not come across a church that is Bibically strong but also open to Spiritual gifts. There always seems to be an extreme.
I think a major part of the error of NAR is the assumption that they could ‘handover’ a world the Jesus or that His return us reliant upon them.
Jesus is very clear about what will happen in the end times and it does not include dominion of the 5 peaks.
This NAR view of end times dictates their assuming of power. Ultimately pride and distraction.
The Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit do not submit to man! It is the other way around. There is only one manipulator and that is satan.
So in the first century, there were Apostles of Christ, Peter, John etc, and then apostles, Barnabae, Apollo’s, etc. in the passage in Eph 4, is the office of apostle referring to the first, second, or both?
I'm with these guys who explained to me how they believe that the church has pastors teachers in evangelist . But not apostles and prophets. When did those two positions stop being part of the church leadership. when I read Ephesians 411 it says these five ministries will be around until the churches brought into unity. We ain't seen that.
Power with pride in the hands of few.....worst error, as it leads to control and abuse. (Authoritarianism)
I have heard pastors that meet the description of your description of NAR.
I'm curious if you limit it to Apostand Prophets?
Remember, NAR affiliated personnel and NAR teachers RARELY admit they are
“NAR”…
This is very troubling indeed! These NAR people would dare to suggest that they and they alone have the inside track to all things God and the kingdom! I know a cult when I see one! No thanks. I’ve been considering an Assemblies of God near by who’s pastor seems solid. But I do feel the need to properly vet. This podcast has helped to equip me when I talk to him . Thank you
Bring Elijah on and ask about 7 mountain dominion theology
Yeah and the praying and receiving and sucking up the anointing of William Branham
I got from this video that apparently Elijah did not have clear information on Bethel.
This was a good discussion with Josh pushing back and questioning and challenging. I would ask that he treated ALL guests the same. As the hosts seemed to ‘fan-girl’ or at least feed Todd White, also letting Elijah (from Bethel) off the hook. I accept these weren’t as charasmatic as some of your other guests. Consistency would be great. Thanks.
Great episode fellas. Have you remnant guys done an episode on the doctrine of decreeing and declaring and it’s historical development and biblical support?
The fact that the hosts are such Bethel and Ihop and BSSM sympathetics is why some of my friends won't watch these interviews at all anymore. And to be honest, I can't handle it very much longer either. The hosts don't have good discernment. Truth can slap them in the face on these specific topics connected to these specific "ministries" and they'll justify these ministries until they're blue in the face.
I think you may be confused friend. I would like to hear a single example of me endorsing the ministry of Bethel, I hop, or BSSM? In fact, we start the show by saying we disagree with the people we interview.
@@TheRemnantRadio Ive seen several shows. It comes across like you are covering for these kinds of ministries. You might want to pray about it. The interview with Randy Clark was an example.
Good stuff guys. One question, where is the Board in the NT or OT? Im just saying..... The only possible reference I have is a negative connotation
....in Laodicea which means "people rulers". Across the OT and NT God moved through individuals not boards and sometimes they hinder movements of God. God never spoke to the people, God spoke to Moses. And when the people tried to overthrow Moses the earth opened up. On the other hand, if you have ever been burned by a leader...which I too have been..very badly...which leads to a good desire to have accountability so we dont end up with heresies or damage to the body of Christ. I also think a board "could" be useful. However, if you are looking at a STRICTLY Scriptural point of view...where is it in the WORD?... who was Pauls Board? Moses had a board? Joshua? David? Elijah? Elisha? Titus? Timothy? I havent found it...although it may have merit. But what kind of people are we? Are we being equipped and submissive and in unity or do we fear the fall of man and set up a system "just in case he fails" to give him the boot. Are we hearing from God or are we operating out of fear.....? The closest thing you can say Scripturally to accoubtability beyond the pastoral is true apostolic leadership. Paul looked to the Jerusalem apostles whom He submitted to. Originally he was sent forth as an Apostle by the Holy Spirit in Acts 13...since it seems there were no apostles in that church, the Holy Spirit working all by himself with full authority. Also look to Titus and Timothy and others who never questioned Paul as Apostle would often "set things in order" performing his apostolic ministry while revealing the unsearchable riches of Christ to the body of Christ...as apostles should.
I am not suggesting we take away accountability, but can we not hold men and women of God we esteem accountable ourselves by the word of God without the man made red tape? Have we become "people RULERS?"
I assume we are talking about geniune men and women of God whom God has called to equip the saints.
That being said, if you emphasis apostolic and prophetic ministry over the other ascension gifts...you can also get into error. There needs to be balance and all 5 fold ministries exist to equip the saints for ministry.
God bless everyone, and may we all keep "Looking to Jesus the author and perfector of our faith".
I give you some good teaching . There is no prophets or apostle today . These so call prophets today can’t even predict it going be dark tonight.
Jan. 2024. They're still making the rounds in Southern Utah and the Arizona strip area.
Rvival City Utah.
If we could do greater works than Jesus in the sense of miracles then by the same logic we would be claiming to be able to do greater works than the cross. That’s blasphemy, beloved.
Who am I? No one. Yet, I believe Jesus was speaking about the greater in number as the gospel is proclaimed, not greater in magnitude.
Interesting interview. Good job on all sides. Keep up the good work. Reading these comments trashing either side or ones unhappy with how their supporting side treats the other too nicely. Geez...
do you believe in the apostolic succession of the Anglican and /or Roman catholic as described here by Doug?
Now I can see how Mike Bickel was never confronted even though many leaders and staff "saw things" that made them question him
38:00 This is prophetic and discerning of them to reference Mike Bickle...
Great dialogue, I’d like counter the argument/conversation between 40-45 minutes...would we have postured ourself with the Pharisees when Jesus stated I will tear down this temple and rebuild it in 3 days? Also during that same segment--who gets to dictate and decide what the writers of scripture were implying when it was written, like Holly’s illustration concerning IHOP and Psalms 27:4??
Pharisees were chastised by Christ, repeatedly, for ADDING works and rules to an already-impossible Law of God, and they also elevated themselves to “celebrity” status, drawing attention to themselves. Pharisees were not chastised for knowing and upholding Scripture. So, keeping that in mind, it illuminates issues when leaders criticize people for being too serious about, or checking their teachings and actions against Scripture. It also brings into stark contrast with Scripture, the emphasize they place upon miracles, works, honoring leaders (not questioning or criticizing them), etc.
+I have heard Bill Johnson say that Jesus performed His miracles as a man.+. If anyone needs that quote, I’ll happily pull it and post it here. Again. That Johnson has specifically taught a kenotic Christ is neither new, nor secret.
Def not new esp since Paul wrote about it to the Philippians
@@prayingpilot3806 Paul did not preach a kenotic Christ. He was talking about the hypostatic union.
@@KristiLEvans1 right . Which is what Bill Johnson believes although it may have been worded poorly initially. He has clarified since. Watch Remnant Radio episode with Randy Clark
@@prayingpilot3806 he doesn’t. Johnson is a diabolical man. I’ll post the clip, because he couldn’t have been clearer that Jesus performed his miracles as a man in right relationship with the Father. That’s kenosis. That’s the opposite of fully God AND fully man.
I agree with most of what you say regarding abuse and error in the church. However, what the Lord showed me is using the term 'NAR' as a broad stroke is unfair and also constitutes spiritual ABUSE of His bride because it is not based on the FULL TRUTH. Let us pray for repentance on all sides. Amen.
Some churches say that they are not NAR but the pastor sets himself herself up in apostolic very authoritarian role and what they say lacks biblical basis
One offs in theology and grouping people in with that are unfair..
NAR agrees with you, as they deny the existence of NAR. Deception is here and when you are deceived, you don't know you are deceived, your only hope is you hear God's actual truth (THE BIBLE) from people who love God, love the Bible, and love those who are deceived, enough to share with them the truth that sets them free. i.e. Biblical truth, even though they know many will hate them for it. That is precisely what Jesus did for us: showed us the truth even though we hated him. That is love.
@@dubyag4124 whether NAR agrees or not doesn't mean a point is right or wrong in and of itself. NAR churches believe in the power of God, the love ot God, the Trinity, the forgiveness of sins, the cross and the ressurection of Jesus, no Christian is going to start denying these just because some churches we don't like believe in them.
I go to Che Ahn’s church…so I guess I’m pretty sure I go to a NAR church…lol. I’ve always thought some of the Nar stuff was unnecessary accessories to the gospel, that previous to now, I thought were just a specific churches preferences or different language they use.
A lot of this stuff is not emphasized in the services or to the congregation. However, Doug and Holly are very right about people’s dependence on leaders, and about their not being confident in reading and understanding the bible themselves, which are huge issues.
There’s certain things about my church, Bethel, and the like, that I’ve felt were way off, and now I realize these are all the NAR factors.
Thinking about switching to a Calvary Chapel or something less NARly 😉
Be cautious of Calvary Chapels also. We have one locally that we are concerned that the Pastor is in danger of exercising too much power…rather than all the pastors and elders working together.
Stay away from anything that is outside of the bible. When you read the whole context it will always reveal what the Holy spirit means .
You need to set audio levels better. All participants have different settings requiring extreme volume adjustment for each speaker. Especially dude on left. Nearly inaudible.
I didn't catch whether or not Doug and Holly are Cessationist. Anybody? Thx.
One of the weak points of criticism against NAR is the denial of a government office for prophets and apostle's, yet not for pastors and teachers. Both sides of the issue have completely overlooked my office of evangelist. The church has yet to even restore the evangelist to the staff of leaders, let alone the higher officers of prophets and apostle's.
Evangelist is not an office of leadership within the church. The NT is clear that church is governed by (a plurality of) elders, supported by deacons.
Evangelism is a vital part of what church should do (the church needs those who have the gift of evangelism), but the role of evangelist is not a role in the leadership and governance of church.
Thank you for your help walking through these land mines. Do any of
you know Dr. Joe Boot? I am wondering if you hear him espousing the same mindset toward “winning the world” as do the NAR, minus the Apostles and Prophets?