So true... I now fly a desk but it is so evident in so many other jobs. Can’t believe I am part of that BOOMER age group that 99% of the time are arrogant and declare they know it all. Such BS attitudes that unfortunately killed his passenger. So preventable. So Sad.
The starting to taxi while still attached to the buoy was a "This is a lighthouse. You move to port" moment. That would have gotten me out of the aircraft at least until the next day, even if the weather was fine and the aircraft was airworthy and everybody on the ground was confident it was an easy takeoff.
I drove trucks for over 40 years. If I felt like things were not going to "work out" at that moment, I parked until I felt safe enough to put 40 tons on the road. I went my entire career without a chargeable accident.
I was a janitor for many years. If I felt like things were not going to "work out" at that moment, I leaned the mop against the wall till I felt safe enough to put 4 pounds back on the floor. I went my entire career without a chargeable accident.
As a non pilot, I often think, why the hours of flight are so many times stressed? I ride motorcycles for years. Not until I hung around tracks and got a racing license, did I realize I was operating the bike incorrectly for years.wish I knew then, what I know now!
The hours behind you mean nothing if you leave no more room for any ahead... Sad and avoidable deaths. A reminder, that everyday is indeed a school day.
This is so true. It’s amazing to hear that so many high hour and very experienced pilots wind up dead because of basic errors. I would imagine this pilot flew for a major airline, and perhaps had military experience beforehand. He would have encountered a lot of different situations, but he would have had support from a CO, captain, dispatch, and volumes upon volumes of manuals and SOPs and top notch training. Maybe he felt that he was good enough to make decisions on his own? Maybe the leash broke and he was unable to restrain himself without an actual authority figure above him telling him to stop? Complacency and overconfidence can affect us all, and we must always be on guard. I always take stock of risks and if there are too many of them all at once... I scrub the mission. He had a leaky float, a missing panel, bad weather, inexperience in this type of aircraft, several mistakes as a result of haste that foreshadowed forgetting a critical checklist item, and the irritability that results from too much stress or fatigue.
@@Bankable2790 "You can't stop me from leaving with my aircraft." "No, but that buoy your aircraft is tied to can." You'd think that part would be at least a little humbling.
@@dpeasehead I think we're saying the same thing but just getting there different ways. Yes, he was blinded by his own arrogance but im sure he genuinely thought he could pull it off. Sad nonetheless.
Using the Swiss Cheese Model and the study of failure as a point of reference is not something most going along for the ride have a concept of. So, while Individuals dealing with high stakes failure scenarios might see the impending failure and run like hell the average passenger, likely not. Now why the CFI did not throw out the safety flag and run like hell.... That is an interesting question.
@@akeemlawrence9750Complacency killed him. This can't have been the first time he'd disagreed with objective advice, as so many people spent so much time trying to talk him out of this. It hadn't killed him in the past when he ignored such advice, so he knew it wouldn't kill him this time.
Could not have said that better. Training and superior skills are gold. Yes having them lets you avoid using them. No one else was interested in trying to take off and even tried hard to stop him. that is why they are alive and he, unfortunately, took innocent lives with him. Like Beau said... Superior judgement trumps all else.
*There is an old Nordic proverb that seems to fit this idiocy:* _"If 4 sober men tell you that you had too much drink; maybe you should lie down for awhile"._
Grew up in NH...these lovely seaplanes frequent various New England lakes. Was lucky enough to ride in them... one pilot described them in colorful terms: Most dangerous plane he ever flew, worst boat he ever sailed and the most fun he ever had. Condolences to all who lost loved ones.
I would've also talked directly to the passengers to explain the danger. The Anti-Authority, Macho, and "Get there itis" attitude by this pilot is incredible. Even worse, the CFI in the right seat was "ok" with continuing the flight as well. Lack of checklist procedures, listening to sage advice from several others, etc. Another PREVENTABLE accident that ended in tragedy. Sad.
It sounds to me like the right seat CFI has some culpability here, and he may not have been forthcoming in the interviews afterwards. How about "ABORT!"?
I was wondering this too. It sounds like loads of people had long conversations with the pilot about the dangerous conditions, did anyone have similar conversations with the two other people getting in the plane? They also should have had the chance to get a place to stay for the night and a flight home with someone else.
If I had been a passenger on this flight, I would have appreciated having the danger explained to me as well, so I could make my own determintation whether I wanted to continue on with this guy on that day.
I remember during my instrument rating, a CFI friend of mine allowed me to take a ride with him, for him and his commercial student(who was also a friend of mine). When he was doing the passenger briefing, he told me that “just because you’re in the back, doesn’t mean you’re not still a pilot. If you see anything that could cause harm to the airplane don’t be afraid to point it out.” As cringy as it is, even on commercial jets, I’ll sometimes do a quick inspection of whatever wing I am looking out of, if for anything to see if there’s anything that I know for sure is out of place(youtuber phlydaily actually had a scenario where he did this and caught something that would have been chatasthrophic). It gets me in the habit of always watching out for things even when I’m not flying,
How would one convey the issue to the flight crew? I was on a commercial flight where they didn't extend the flaps until RIGHT BEFORE the takeoff roll. I was frantic the whole time we were taxiing but didn't know what to do.
Lisa Murphy you simply scream „no flaps! No flaps!“ Cabin crew can contact the cockpit immediately. Catching something like that could have saved Spanair 5022. (BTW, if cabin crew does not react: unbuckle and get up.) There is a big BUT to the above: No flap takeoffs are possible and perfectly legal in some Airbus, Boeing, etc. airliners. So in the end you might end up being responsible for aborting a takeoff of a properly configured aircraft which most probably result in at least a ton of paperwork. So unless you are sure the aircraft you are on is not capable of no flaps takeoff, it‘s going to be a hard descision on what to do.
From the aircraft he described tho, it was actually normal. The md-80 series control surfaces are not hydraulically powered, they use control tabs, which require airflow. The ailerons would of returned to the neutral position on take-off.
I remember being at Oshkosh when this happened. My instructor said to me years ago when I was a student that when the moment you think you know it all that plane will turn around and bite you in the ass. That has stuck with me through all these years. This particular situation was totally careless and reckless on the pic.
Back when I drove truck I had a trainer tell me the day I thought I knew everything was the day I better turn in my keys because somebody was going to get hurt. Those are very true words. Every day on the road I found myself in a situation I had to think my way out of. Your never to old to stop learning something new.
The arrogance of many older high time pilots is staggering and dangerous... they think they know it all. I'd rather fly with a training kid in many instances. They'll usually make better 'no fly' decisions.
@Tomias Thexder RE: "I'd rather fly with a training kid in many instances. They'll usually make better 'no fly' decisions." Not necessarily. JFk Jr. had only recently gotten his pilot's license and was only rated for VFR (visual flight rules). He took off in weather that was marginal at best and he found himself "boxed in" by fog and low light conditions. "The official investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) concluded that Kennedy fell victim to spatial disorientation while he was descending over water at night and consequently lost control of his plane. Kennedy did not hold an instrument rating and therefore he was only certified to fly under visual flight rules. At the time of the crash, the weather and light conditions were such that all basic landmarks were obscured, making visual flight challenging, although legally still permissible." Reference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_Jr._plane_crash
Those people usually are best delt with (assuming you can easily tell they don't have a gum on them) by whispering a threat into their ear to make them hostile and then using the bear spray you have on you to put them on the ground. Works great at the gas station when people won't stop smoking while pumping gas. Then we get them taken away by police as on security cam they assaulted me after I was just trying to enforce the safety rules. The amount of fires I have to put out from idiots filling up gas canisters with a black and mild in their mouth and then we have to shut the whole gas station down and call for an ambulance because they set themselves on fire astounds me. Bear spray burns for a while, gasoline flash fires permanently disfigure you
Yes…but imo this guy was dealing with dementia or something age related. There’s no way he was this cavalier with safety during a 33K hour lifetime. Would’ve been killed 100x over.
I owned an LA 4 200 Lake for a few years, had a great instructor on the type and realized that you had to be very careful with that plane, it is a different bird from what we generally fly. Respect, training and a certain dose of caution are warranted.
Dear Lord, what the heck? Not just this guy, but all three had to be a bit loony. If I saw that flack between a harbormaster and others discouraging flight, as a passenger, I'd be like, "Um, yer batshit crazy, I'm staying here."
Yeah, sometimes I think it might be more effective to try discourage the passenger then the pilot, but I can see how it could be perceived as a bad etiquette and if you have to work with that pilot it would make relationships really unpleasant...
This is just a guess but the female passenger was likely the wife of one or the other of the pilots. As such, she probably wouldn’t have had much say in the outcome of two guys whose common sense was trumped by too-big egos.
@@freepilot7732 Sometimes you have to take a stand and worry about "authority" and the consequences of overstepping it later. If I understood the risks he was taking with a load of passengers, and I towed him out anyway, I would feel very bad about it even if I wasn't considered or held liable for it.
@@dpeasehead that's what I meant. I think how I replied was confusing. I meant that the boat operator should have just not done it. That's what I meant. Its not about the "not having the authority" to say no to the pilot. It's the point the towing should just not have been done I'm tnt first place.
The pilot dealing with the mooring reminded me of a flight instructor I dealt with years ago. He was very haughty and had a bad attitude. I had just tied down and was walking into the terminal when I saw him start his engine. I noticed that the nose wheel was still chocked with those steel heavy duty "you ain't goin' nowhere" chocks. I motioned to shut down and pointed at the nose wheel. He shut down and opened the window and asked me what the hell my problem was. I said, "I'd like to remove the chocks for you." He said, "I'd like you get the hell away from my airplane." He restarted and I just stood there and watched him apply power and go nowhere. He had to shutdown and glared at me as I laughed at him. He stormed around to the front of the plane and removed the chocks. We could all use a little humble pie here and there; it's not a contest.
If I saw a pilot do what he did, I would never fly with them. I've actually been in that situation taxiing out as passenger, and declared I wanted out (I saw the pilots general bad attitude) - the pilot said no he didnt want to turn around, so I asked him to break to a stop. I unlatched the canopy and got out at the runup bay, and wished him "good luck".
I don't understand "Get off my lawn" types, live a happy life, enjoy other people who are your friends or are being friendly , live life to it's fullest, even if you can't afford a night's stay at Oshkosh (which they implied).
@@BigBlueJake Sleep in the plane for a night. I've done worse. And if he was worried about getting a hotel room for more than one night, well...that was just piss-poor planning.
I own a LAKE-4-200 and have over 300 hrs in it. I live in Beaufort SC and landed once in one of the rivers here. Upon takeoff approached the spot where two rivers came together. 2 foot waves and had to really use my skills to get her out. Iwas taught very well and bounced several times, Made it out safely, but was another learning experience. Word of wisdom, full flaps and drive it onto the waves. Did not soil my britches. N32DQ
The real victim was the female passenger, the other 2 pilots were clearly told the risk they were undertaking, guess the surviving pilot has to live with this fact, not a place i would want to be in, in any way.
"Passengers put a lot of trust in the pilot's judgement" Yeah - we passengers do. Pilots, captains, bus drivers, train drivers, taxi drivers, we put a lot of faith that the operator wont screw up.
She's a victim, certainly, but if she was aware of all those people desperately trying to dissuade her pilot friend from departing in those conditions, then I'm afraid even as a non-pilot she has to accept some responsibility for boarding the craft in the face of all that good sense.
Early signs of dementia. I've seen it firsthand. He thought people were trying to stop him out of spite. He was extremely bull-headed and wouldn't listen to reason. He had no business piloting that plane or even driving a car.
I wonder if the non-pilot passenger was aware of all the concerns expressed by the locals on the decision to take off? Also, it takes an amazing amount of arrogance to think you know better than the many people who all had a different opinion of the situation.
Maybe she was the one pushing a schedule. We don't know why they were so intent on getting out of there. Plus, I think the pilot was POed about finding his plane anchored-out and not at the dock where they left it. That may have started the whole pissy dynamic right there.
@@grecco_buckliano yes, something triggered. Clearly it was 'on' between these parties. By the looks of it by time he left was raging hard as rocks. What did the group do in those few hours prior must be asked any alcohol yes or no? Did the investigation determine?
Bob O Pretty sure the NTSB report said no drugs or alcohol were detected, unless I’m thinking of the last ASI video I just watched. I know I thought the same thing as you and was curious.
Ive watched a few of these today and they are a great reminder of why even way back in my 20s while taking lessons I was nervous about the idea of taking passengers up after I completed my license. I always understood the immense trust be placed on the PIC and how most passengers would be completely at your mercy. The tragic part of that is not only how often pilots forget that responsibility but how often drivers do as well.
Just like a drunk at a party, I would have taken the keys or disabled the plane in some way. I would also explain to the passengers emphatically that they WERE likely to die if take off is attempted. Some call me a little nuts sometimes, but in this case it would have saved lives.
I found this channel and can't stop listening to all these stories. So many of them include the pilot shrugging off suggestions multiple times and then dying. I can tell you for sure if I'm ever a pilot, I'll be listening and not shrugging off suggestions.
If you have a CFI sitting in the copilot's seat, why wouldn't you have them act as a copilot and do things like RUN DOWN THE BLOODY LIST? That alone might have caught things like the flaps. Although, this sounded like the pilot's own hubris got in the way.
the CFI was probably just sitting there shocked that all of the previous events even happened. All of the attempts to keep them from doing the impossible / improbable. It was all a big distraction and thus, a nightmare unfolding. I hope the NTSB interviewed him thoroughly. But I suspect the guy was holding back info to protect his friend (just a wild stab in the dark)
He sounds like every 60+ year old former/current ATP pilot I know that owns a fancy plane like this seaplane. The infallible boomer. Horrible generation.
Early signs of dementia. I've seen it firsthand. He thought people were trying to stop him out of spite. He was extremely bull-headed and wouldn't listen to reason. He had no business piloting that plane or even driving a car.
What’s interesting is that the Lake’s high thrust line only makes it pitch down on water due to the extra water drag. Due to the cruciform tail being directly in the undisturbed prop wash and the huge trim “flippers”.. the gravity-lift couple overcomes the thrust-drag couple and the plane noses up on application of power and noses down at idle... as it’s required to for certification. Most seaplanes will porpoise due to the higher displacement ahead of the step (and centre of gravity but flying boats are especially susceptible due to their much higher reserve buoyancy (since the “float” is also part of the fuselage where you need room for passengers and payload).
Lake Winnebago is a rough lake. I use to take my boat out there when I was 15 but never once did I ever go out if Elmer the old timer on the lake told me not to. That lake can be a beast. 28 miles long, 10'5 miles wide, 21 feet deep.
While not a pilot I enjoy aviation and this channel. I did do 4 combat tours and know all to well this personality profile. Saw a boot butter bar get blown in half because he wouldn’t listen to a far more experienced enlisted Marine. Just because he knew better. Pride and impatience are absolutely lethal personality profiles in life and death situations.
I would hope the passenger would also be notified about the risks so they can make up their own mind to go or not and not leave it all up to the pilot. Do we know if that passenger was told about the risks?
Left seat pilot Ray; 84 years old. His obituary stated he had 42,000 hours flight time. Right seat pilot; 73 years old. The 71 year old passenger was a beautiful woman, with many friends and interests.
I'm not a pilot (but a 112 hr student 20 years ago). As I watch these exceptional productions I'm struck how universal their lessons are and applicable to everything from operating potentially dangerous equipment to Tinder dating.
I live in Wisconsin and Lake Winnabago kills so many people each year it's staggering. Average depth of 15 feet and makes big waves in minutes with no warning. Lake Michigan is a little girl compared to the fury that Winnabago can unleash in summer or winter. Truly incredible!
I really enjoy these videos. I'd love to get my pilots license but I want to make sure I'm ready. And these videos really help me understand some things.
You can lead a horse to water........ The staff at Airventure tried their best to save the guy from himself. He refused all help and advice, an innocent person died.
I have never watched one of these before and gone “what a friggin idiot.” It just doesn’t happen that much, a lot of people make poor decisions under pressure and it results in bad outcomes. Most people are trying their best. This guy had every opportunity to make a better decision and he was so block-headed that he killed an innocent person. Such an absolute tragedy.
This is like the opposite of a mystery. You wonder how some of the other accidents on this channel would be understood if the pilot had to talk to this many people.
84 y/o and behaving like a 5 y/o. Maybe somebody should have pulled his ticket? I know we're not "our brothers' keeper", but this makes our community look bad.
I like your thinking, but he departed from the dock. When they brought him to his aircraft in the boat, they knew he wasn’t going to take off because he didn’t have his passengers with him. They helped bring him and his aircraft to the ramp. From that point on he got himself killed without anyone else’s help.
I'm glad I'm learning all this. In the off chance I'm ever in this situation (not likely) I as a passenger would opt not to ride knowing some of this basic information.
So many links in the chain leading up to this accident, that would scream stop to most all level headed pilots. The young CFI should have told the passenger that we are not going, and that may have made a difference to the older pilot. My dad was a pilot, and while I was learning to fly and hanging around the airport, he warned me several times of certain personality types to never get in a airplane with.
As mentioned before, high flight time doesn't translate to experience, especially when something out of the ordinary occurs. What is confusing is why the CFI and passenger chose to fly with him. Given the numerous objections, I would have thought they would have bailed and explained they just didn't feel safe flying right now.
With my limited experience with AMT training, I’m under the impression that you should always err on the side of NOT flying when there is any question of safety. However, hindsight is always 20/20.
I'm a CFI with Lake Amphibian time. The pilot was a text book anti-authority pilot who would not take advice from people in the know. Killing just yourself is one thing but killing or injuring innocents is not acceptable. I wasn't clear if the other pilot and passenger were clued in on the danger presented. I would have blocked 🚫 off his exit route. When your right your right. He would have been pissed but alive. Flying with a leaky float doesn't fair well on your weight and balance either.
I’m confused as to the direct relevance of flight hours in proficiency to handle a seaplane. Shouldn’t the measure instead be number of takeoffs and landings executed?
I am not a pilot but I do climb mountains. And it's not hard find valuable comparisons here. First and foremost how unforgivable "being wrong" is. Gravity is always on. It's always perfectly precise. And it doesn't care who you are, who you think you are, who you're trying to impress, or why you think you're right... it always wins. Now adding in the weather, an aircraft, the waves... and other people's lives this takes things to an almost unimaginable level of responsibility and good judgement. Greatest in this profession exist on a different plane, it defines itself by a different set of rules than it does in other areas of life. I typically look to the conditions of myself (tired), my equipment (needs repairs) and to the weather typically just to know what to bring. In the sport of flying, it's not how am I doing as much as how is the weather doing today. In my world battling it out in a snow cave with all the cool gear is considered an achievement! But in flying I can see that calmly saying let's go find a cozy corner in the town and have a coffee and wait for the weather to calm down, this act is much more courageous and skillful. I say skillful because managing the ego is the hardest of all task especially if your an skillful pilot that deserves to be admired.
I’ve been at the OSH seaplane base. Best place to stay at OSH with a tent or small RV. These stories are strangely gratifying to me, though I hate to see innocent victims. Uppity PIC died. Good.
Or just rushing. It happens. On a check flight a few weeks ago, I had numerous delays including a change of aircraft that ate up 3/4 of my alloted lesson time. Taxiing out for my run-up, I realized that between talking to my instructor and the tower I had missed 3 or 4 items on the after startup checklist. Had to slow it down again and get my head in the game!
Alice Kottmyer You are certainly not the first. Had a friend that took off with the tow bar in place. The tower advise him and he returned to land. Cost him a tow bar, wheel pant, closed runway to remove debri and a good deal of ribbing.
In a word... manslaughter. I have been a passenger in a car operated by a malignant narcissist. During conversation, an assertion of his was questioned and he took offense and began driving erratically. When his dangerous driving was pointed out, he violently pulled over and demanded that we get out and walk the 4 miles to our apartment, then departed in a spray of gravel. This account and taxi/takeoff footage reminds me of that incident. Too bad the passenger didn't have a chance to get out once the danger became apparent. I can't help thinking the CFI passenger has some culpability.
I fucking love THIS show, I love the narrators voice I love the low volume music in the background at the beginning, I love everything about it, and I’m not a pilot, but it’s a great show very well composed.
That wasn't a poor decision...that was a 'You're not going to tell ME how to fly a plane' stubbornest. What a preventable tragedy.
So true... I now fly a desk but it is so evident in so many other jobs. Can’t believe I am part of that BOOMER age group that 99% of the time are arrogant and declare they know it all. Such BS attitudes that unfortunately killed his passenger. So preventable. So Sad.
The starting to taxi while still attached to the buoy was a "This is a lighthouse. You move to port" moment. That would have gotten me out of the aircraft at least until the next day, even if the weather was fine and the aircraft was airworthy and everybody on the ground was confident it was an easy takeoff.
Danni anti authoritarian mindset
"that was a 'You're not going to tell ME how to fly a plane' stubbornest."
Reminds me of: Don't tell me to wear a mask!
@@johncatty6560 Masks are a sign of subservience and fascism, they don't do shit for stopping viruses.
I drove trucks for over 40 years. If I felt like things were not going to "work out" at that moment, I parked until I felt safe enough to put 40 tons on the road. I went my entire career without a chargeable accident.
Ive been trucking for 5 years and counting. If i have 3 other truckers and 2 random dudes telling me that my idea is bad, ima re-evaluate my thinking.
I was a janitor for many years. If I felt like things were not going to "work out" at that moment, I leaned the mop against the wall till I felt safe enough to put 4 pounds back on the floor. I went my entire career without a chargeable accident.
@@TheCabledawg1 😅
@@TheCabledawg1 Underrated comment. No matter how many likes it gets. 😂
New title "Stubborn Boomer Gets Grandkids Killed"
It’s not how many hours you have that make you safe...but how you handle the next hour ahead of you.
As a non pilot, I often think, why the hours of flight are so many times stressed? I ride motorcycles for years. Not until I hung around tracks and got a racing license, did I realize I was operating the bike incorrectly for years.wish I knew then, what I know now!
Finally someone came out and said it. So true.
The hours behind you mean nothing if you leave no more room for any ahead... Sad and avoidable deaths. A reminder, that everyday is indeed a school day.
This is so true.
It’s amazing to hear that so many high hour and very experienced pilots wind up dead because of basic errors.
I would imagine this pilot flew for a major airline, and perhaps had military experience beforehand. He would have encountered a lot of different situations, but he would have had support from a CO, captain, dispatch, and volumes upon volumes of manuals and SOPs and top notch training.
Maybe he felt that he was good enough to make decisions on his own? Maybe the leash broke and he was unable to restrain himself without an actual authority figure above him telling him to stop?
Complacency and overconfidence can affect us all, and we must always be on guard. I always take stock of risks and if there are too many of them all at once... I scrub the mission. He had a leaky float, a missing panel, bad weather, inexperience in this type of aircraft, several mistakes as a result of haste that foreshadowed forgetting a critical checklist item, and the irritability that results from too much stress or fatigue.
Very well put. 😉👍👍
"If your day is beginning to sound like an ATSB report, stop what you're doing right now"
😂😂😂
“Pilot became argumentative...”
@@Bankable2790 "You can't stop me from leaving with my aircraft."
"No, but that buoy your aircraft is tied to can."
You'd think that part would be at least a little humbling.
So never fly?
@@Bankable2790 "Won" the argument, lost his life..As well as that of someone else'
This guy was determined to get killed; too bad he took a passenger with him
Why do you think he was foresaw that? Its seems moreso a case of "don't question the caption" pompousness that in retrospect shoulda been called out..
@@akeemlawrence9750 He was the only one at the base that day who didn't see it.
@@dpeasehead I think we're saying the same thing but just getting there different ways. Yes, he was blinded by his own arrogance but im sure he genuinely thought he could pull it off. Sad nonetheless.
Using the Swiss Cheese Model and the study of failure as a point of reference is not something most going along for the ride have a concept of. So, while Individuals dealing with high stakes failure scenarios might see the impending failure and run like hell the average passenger, likely not. Now why the CFI did not throw out the safety flag and run like hell.... That is an interesting question.
@@akeemlawrence9750Complacency killed him. This can't have been the first time he'd disagreed with objective advice, as so many people spent so much time trying to talk him out of this. It hadn't killed him in the past when he ignored such advice, so he knew it wouldn't kill him this time.
"Why don't you just get a room and stay the night?"...."I'd rather die". Well, there ya go.
I hear that!
@@d.t.4523 MIne didn't have audio? (grimace - levity).
Suicidal, not argumentative.
Wisdom comes with age. Sometimes age comes all by itself.
Arrogance and ego comes with age a lot more than wisdom does.
Love it!
The superior pilot uses their superior judgement to avoid the need for their superior skill
I hadn't heard this before but dang it's good
Could not have said that better. Training and superior skills are gold. Yes having them lets you avoid using them. No one else was interested in trying to take off and even tried hard to stop him. that is why they are alive and he, unfortunately, took innocent lives with him. Like Beau said... Superior judgement trumps all else.
I'll have to give that a try.
I love the Kings.. :) (Is that where you heard it, too?)
That was the first thing taught in ground school...the very first lesson...thanks Beau
*There is an old Nordic proverb that seems to fit this idiocy:*
_"If 4 sober men tell you that you had too much drink; maybe you should lie down for awhile"._
Hah, that's awesome. I've had this thought kind of but this conveys it very well.
Even if you're sober.
Another one: _If 10 people say you have a tail, sooner or later you have to turn around and take a look._
@Coma White Really take notice?
that’s awesome!
Grew up in NH...these lovely seaplanes frequent various New England lakes. Was lucky enough to ride in them... one pilot described them in colorful terms: Most dangerous plane he ever flew, worst boat he ever sailed and the most fun he ever had.
Condolences to all who lost loved ones.
This is what happens when you have a bad case of 'Get there-itis' mixed in with a massive ego and lack of experience
This seems way worse than average 'Get there-itis'
i knew some bozo would chime in with the overused "get there itis" phrase....just as suspected someone did lol
@ Mark F.
It’s not overused if it’s accurate. There’s absolutely no other reason that pilot wanted to depart, and in a hurry.
Completely wrong attitude.
lack of experience? tens of thousands of hours. Ego proved more strong than experience.
I would've also talked directly to the passengers to explain the danger. The Anti-Authority, Macho, and "Get there itis" attitude by this pilot is incredible. Even worse, the CFI in the right seat was "ok" with continuing the flight as well. Lack of checklist procedures, listening to sage advice from several others, etc. Another PREVENTABLE accident that ended in tragedy. Sad.
They might have done, but the kind of "friends" an overbearing person like this has, will follow against their better judgement.
Yeah I was wondering too if the passengers were made aware how seriously dangerous the situation was, I guess we'll never know.
It sounds to me like the right seat CFI has some culpability here, and he may not have been forthcoming in the interviews afterwards. How about "ABORT!"?
I was wondering this too. It sounds like loads of people had long conversations with the pilot about the dangerous conditions, did anyone have similar conversations with the two other people getting in the plane? They also should have had the chance to get a place to stay for the night and a flight home with someone else.
If I had been a passenger on this flight, I would have appreciated having the danger explained to me as well, so I could make my own determintation whether I wanted to continue on with this guy on that day.
I remember during my instrument rating, a CFI friend of mine allowed me to take a ride with him, for him and his commercial student(who was also a friend of mine). When he was doing the passenger briefing, he told me that “just because you’re in the back, doesn’t mean you’re not still a pilot. If you see anything that could cause harm to the airplane don’t be afraid to point it out.” As cringy as it is, even on commercial jets, I’ll sometimes do a quick inspection of whatever wing I am looking out of, if for anything to see if there’s anything that I know for sure is out of place(youtuber phlydaily actually had a scenario where he did this and caught something that would have been chatasthrophic). It gets me in the habit of always watching out for things even when I’m not flying,
A&P here. I do the same thing.
How would one convey the issue to the flight crew? I was on a commercial flight where they didn't extend the flaps until RIGHT BEFORE the takeoff roll. I was frantic the whole time we were taxiing but didn't know what to do.
Lisa Murphy you simply scream „no flaps! No flaps!“ Cabin crew can contact the cockpit immediately. Catching something like that could have saved Spanair 5022. (BTW, if cabin crew does not react: unbuckle and get up.) There is a big BUT to the above: No flap takeoffs are possible and perfectly legal in some Airbus, Boeing, etc. airliners. So in the end you might end up being responsible for aborting a takeoff of a properly configured aircraft which most probably result in at least a ton of paperwork. So unless you are sure the aircraft you are on is not capable of no flaps takeoff, it‘s going to be a hard descision on what to do.
Is there a video about the phlydaily situation?
From the aircraft he described tho, it was actually normal. The md-80 series control surfaces are not hydraulically powered, they use control tabs, which require airflow. The ailerons would of returned to the neutral position on take-off.
I remember being at Oshkosh when this happened. My instructor said to me years ago when I was a student that when the moment you think you know it all that plane will turn around and bite you in the ass. That has stuck with me through all these years. This particular situation was totally careless and reckless on the pic.
Back when I drove truck I had a trainer tell me the day I thought I knew everything was the day I better turn in my keys because somebody was going to get hurt. Those are very true words. Every day on the road I found myself in a situation I had to think my way out of. Your never to old to stop learning something new.
The arrogance of many older high time pilots is staggering and dangerous... they think they know it all. I'd rather fly with a training kid in many instances. They'll usually make better 'no fly' decisions.
This was a relatively low time pilot though. 30,000 hours is like barely any flight time.
@@sloth6765 for airline pilots, but for general aviation it's a lot imo
@@rer-cilantro4008 I think he was being sarcastic... just a little.
That's around 3 5 years of your life in the air. Life goals...
@Tomias Thexder
RE: "I'd rather fly with a training kid in many instances. They'll usually make better 'no fly' decisions."
Not necessarily. JFk Jr. had only recently gotten his pilot's license and was only rated for VFR (visual flight rules). He took off in weather that was marginal at best and he found himself "boxed in" by fog and low light conditions.
"The official investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) concluded that Kennedy fell victim to spatial disorientation while he was descending over water at night and consequently lost control of his plane. Kennedy did not hold an instrument rating and therefore he was only certified to fly under visual flight rules. At the time of the crash, the weather and light conditions were such that all basic landmarks were obscured, making visual flight challenging, although legally still permissible."
Reference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_Jr._plane_crash
Some “strong willed” guys take any resistance as a challenge to their authority - more resistance causes more of an absolute need to continue.
Those people usually are best delt with (assuming you can easily tell they don't have a gum on them) by whispering a threat into their ear to make them hostile and then using the bear spray you have on you to put them on the ground. Works great at the gas station when people won't stop smoking while pumping gas. Then we get them taken away by police as on security cam they assaulted me after I was just trying to enforce the safety rules. The amount of fires I have to put out from idiots filling up gas canisters with a black and mild in their mouth and then we have to shut the whole gas station down and call for an ambulance because they set themselves on fire astounds me. Bear spray burns for a while, gasoline flash fires permanently disfigure you
Yes…but imo this guy was dealing with dementia or something age related. There’s no way he was this cavalier with safety during a 33K hour lifetime. Would’ve been killed 100x over.
@@Aztesticals 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
@@33moneyballYeah I feel like he was having some kind of health issue or was under a lot of stress due to something else going on in his life.
As a college kid with a PPL who flies his friends around all the time, that last line hits me so hard...
I owned an LA 4 200 Lake for a few years, had a great instructor on the type and realized that you had to be very careful with that plane, it is a different bird from what we generally fly. Respect, training and a certain dose of caution are warranted.
Dear Lord, what the heck? Not just this guy, but all three had to be a bit loony. If I saw that flack between a harbormaster and others discouraging flight, as a passenger, I'd be like, "Um, yer batshit crazy, I'm staying here."
Yeah, sometimes I think it might be more effective to try discourage the passenger then the pilot, but I can see how it could be perceived as a bad etiquette and if you have to work with that pilot it would make relationships really unpleasant...
Inverted Narcissism... look it up.
This is just a guess but the female passenger was likely the wife of one or the other of the pilots. As such, she probably wouldn’t have had much say in the outcome of two guys whose common sense was trumped by too-big egos.
The fact that they towed him out was amazing. They should have just said, no thanks.
@Brisdad53 it's not about authority. Its about just not doing it.
@@freepilot7732 Sometimes you have to take a stand and worry about "authority" and the consequences of overstepping it later. If I understood the risks he was taking with a load of passengers, and I towed him out anyway, I would feel very bad about it even if I wasn't considered or held liable for it.
@@dpeasehead that's what I meant. I think how I replied was confusing. I meant that the boat operator should have just not done it. That's what I meant. Its not about the "not having the authority" to say no to the pilot. It's the point the towing should just not have been done I'm tnt first place.
Actually, they do have the "authority". They own the boat.
Tim McCoy here wife's account.
Boat won't start. Shucks.
The pilot dealing with the mooring reminded me of a flight instructor I dealt with years ago. He was very haughty and had a bad attitude. I had just tied down and was walking into the terminal when I saw him start his engine. I noticed that the nose wheel was still chocked with those steel heavy duty "you ain't goin' nowhere" chocks. I motioned to shut down and pointed at the nose wheel. He shut down and opened the window and asked me what the hell my problem was. I said, "I'd like to remove the chocks for you." He said, "I'd like you get the hell away from my airplane." He restarted and I just stood there and watched him apply power and go nowhere. He had to shutdown and glared at me as I laughed at him. He stormed around to the front of the plane and removed the chocks. We could all use a little humble pie here and there; it's not a contest.
If I saw a pilot do what he did, I would never fly with them. I've actually been in that situation taxiing out as passenger, and declared I wanted out (I saw the pilots general bad attitude) - the pilot said no he didnt want to turn around, so I asked him to break to a stop. I unlatched the canopy and got out at the runup bay, and wished him "good luck".
I don't understand "Get off my lawn" types, live a happy life, enjoy other people who are your friends or are being friendly , live life to it's fullest, even if you can't afford a night's stay at Oshkosh (which they implied).
@@dabneyoffermein595 also, waterways are all public property.
@@dabneyoffermein595 If the guy could afford to fly his own plane to Oshkosh, he could afford room rate. Finding an available room, however...
@@BigBlueJake Sleep in the plane for a night. I've done worse. And if he was worried about getting a hotel room for more than one night, well...that was just piss-poor planning.
I own a LAKE-4-200 and have over 300 hrs in it. I live in Beaufort SC and landed once in one of the rivers here. Upon takeoff approached the spot where two rivers came together. 2 foot waves and had to really use my skills to get her out. Iwas taught very well and bounced several times, Made it out safely, but was another learning experience. Word of wisdom, full flaps and drive it onto the waves. Did not soil my britches. N32DQ
These videos are critical for pilot training and safety. Thank you for turning a tragedy into something that can help others
The real victim was the female passenger, the other 2 pilots were clearly told the risk they were undertaking, guess the surviving pilot has to live with this fact, not a place i would want to be in, in any way.
"Passengers put a lot of trust in the pilot's judgement"
Yeah - we passengers do. Pilots, captains, bus drivers, train drivers, taxi drivers, we put a lot of faith that the operator wont screw up.
Plus the survivor's guilt at not being able to help the others get out.
Halcyon Outlander yeah but no reason to speed up the clock.
@@halcyonoutlander2105 So I guess risk assessment and mitigation is worthless then?
She's a victim, certainly, but if she was aware of all those people desperately trying to dissuade her pilot friend from departing in those conditions, then I'm afraid even as a non-pilot she has to accept some responsibility for boarding the craft in the face of all that good sense.
Early signs of dementia. I've seen it firsthand. He thought people were trying to stop him out of spite. He was extremely bull-headed and wouldn't listen to reason.
He had no business piloting that plane or even driving a car.
I wonder if the non-pilot passenger was aware of all the concerns expressed by the locals on the decision to take off? Also, it takes an amazing amount of arrogance to think you know better than the many people who all had a different opinion of the situation.
Maybe she was the one pushing a schedule. We don't know why they were so intent on getting out of there. Plus, I think the pilot was POed about finding his plane anchored-out and not at the dock where they left it. That may have started the whole pissy dynamic right there.
@@grecco_buckliano yes, something triggered. Clearly it was 'on' between these parties. By the looks of it by time he left was raging hard as rocks. What did the group do in those few hours prior must be asked any alcohol yes or no? Did the investigation determine?
You'd think the pilots was running to get away from a couple of bike peddling Jehovah witnesses.
Bob O Pretty sure the NTSB report said no drugs or alcohol were detected, unless I’m thinking of the last ASI video I just watched. I know I thought the same thing as you and was curious.
Autopsy showed no alcohol or tested drugs in bloodstream.
Ive watched a few of these today and they are a great reminder of why even way back in my 20s while taking lessons I was nervous about the idea of taking passengers up after I completed my license. I always understood the immense trust be placed on the PIC and how most passengers would be completely at your mercy.
The tragic part of that is not only how often pilots forget that responsibility but how often drivers do as well.
This is a brilliant metaphor for our current times.
Just like a drunk at a party, I would have taken the keys or disabled the plane in some way. I would also explain to the passengers emphatically that they WERE likely to die if take off is attempted.
Some call me a little nuts sometimes, but in this case it would have saved lives.
Miss your wonderful narration on this channel.
The Sketches and Animations are truly well done, along with the style…
I found this channel and can't stop listening to all these stories. So many of them include the pilot shrugging off suggestions multiple times and then dying. I can tell you for sure if I'm ever a pilot, I'll be listening and not shrugging off suggestions.
I just want to say the visuals / picture story on this one is amazing!
If you have a CFI sitting in the copilot's seat, why wouldn't you have them act as a copilot and do things like RUN DOWN THE BLOODY LIST? That alone might have caught things like the flaps. Although, this sounded like the pilot's own hubris got in the way.
Yep, lists are good but if you are always right then you don't need them. Problem is no one is always right, hence the discipline of lists.
@@Ps119 No one's always right, especially sitting in the left seat?
the CFI was probably just sitting there shocked that all of the previous events even happened. All of the attempts to keep them from doing the impossible / improbable. It was all a big distraction and thus, a nightmare unfolding. I hope the NTSB interviewed him thoroughly. But I suspect the guy was holding back info to protect his friend (just a wild stab in the dark)
It's been awhile since I've seen a video from y'all in my subscription feed. I'm glad y'all are back
The arrogant person is just like a drunken person, his judgement is flawed and impaired.
See the 1977 Tenerife crash.
Sounds like an old chinese proverb
He sounds like every 60+ year old former/current ATP pilot I know that owns a fancy plane like this seaplane. The infallible boomer. Horrible generation.
Early signs of dementia. I've seen it firsthand. He thought people were trying to stop him out of spite. He was extremely bull-headed and wouldn't listen to reason.
He had no business piloting that plane or even driving a car.
@@TheBandit7613 Sounds like most baby boomers honestly.
Invulnerability combined with a big ego... is a deadly combination.
Did you see this 3 hours ago? Clear things up
Said posted 17 minutes ago
Make you the first💃🕺🕴🍾🍾🍾🍾 it amaze me what get PEOPLE knickers in knotz
My dream plane! So sad to see someone not respect the dangers of such a unique aircraft....
..me too, but I am grateful to have learned that these Lakes aren’t quite as “dreamy” as I had envisioned.
Mine too, next to my moony 231
I hought this was about a renegade pilot flying over a lake.... good analysis, high quality. Thanks for these.
Such great content. I hope everyone stays safe but please keep these coming. Such valuable lessons.
What’s interesting is that the Lake’s high thrust line only makes it pitch down on water due to the extra water drag.
Due to the cruciform tail being directly in the undisturbed prop wash and the huge trim “flippers”.. the gravity-lift couple overcomes the thrust-drag couple and the plane noses up on application of power and noses down at idle... as it’s required to for certification.
Most seaplanes will porpoise due to the higher displacement ahead of the step (and centre of gravity but flying boats are especially susceptible due to their much higher reserve buoyancy (since the “float” is also part of the fuselage where you need room for passengers and payload).
Lake Winnebago is a rough lake. I use to take my boat out there when I was 15 but never once did I ever go out if Elmer the old timer on the lake told me not to. That lake can be a beast. 28 miles long, 10'5 miles wide, 21 feet deep.
While not a pilot I enjoy aviation and this channel. I did do 4 combat tours and know all to well this personality profile. Saw a boot butter bar get blown in half because he wouldn’t listen to a far more experienced enlisted Marine. Just because he knew better. Pride and impatience are absolutely lethal personality profiles in life and death situations.
I would hope the passenger would also be notified about the risks so they can make up their own mind to go or not and not leave it all up to the pilot. Do we know if that passenger was told about the risks?
Dude is such a great narrator. He could make paint drying suspenseful.
That's a cool way to put it. But you're right. Fantastic narration.
I absolutely love this channel 110% keep making these great videos I’m sharing with my friends and family
Left seat pilot Ray; 84 years old. His obituary stated he had 42,000 hours flight time. Right seat pilot; 73 years old.
The 71 year old passenger was a beautiful woman, with many friends and interests.
I'm not a pilot (but a 112 hr student 20 years ago). As I watch these exceptional productions I'm struck how universal their lessons are and applicable to everything from operating potentially dangerous equipment to Tinder dating.
I live in Wisconsin and Lake Winnabago kills so many people each year it's staggering. Average depth of 15 feet and makes big waves in minutes with no warning. Lake Michigan is a little girl compared to the fury that Winnabago can unleash in summer or winter. Truly incredible!
Great vid, rip to the pilot and passenger, condolences to their families. The pilot had so much helpful advice yet he chose to takeoff anyway.
Get-there-itis is real pilots! No amount of experience makes you invulnerable.
I am kind of worried that the more experienced pilots are more susceptible to it.
Also known as 'summit fever' for climbers. You have a goal, not attaining that goal means you are failed. So people push when they should not.
You're right. But it should make us more suspicious!
I really enjoy these videos. I'd love to get my pilots license but I want to make sure I'm ready. And these videos really help me understand some things.
These videos are amazing. I’m addicted
According to the seaplane base chairman's statement in the NTSB docket, the passenger was seen crying and not wanting to go on the flight 😢
She should have said no. Why is that so hard for people?
You can lead a horse to water........ The staff at Airventure tried their best to save the guy from himself. He refused all help and advice, an innocent person died.
I love these pilots who know everything!
I have never watched one of these before and gone “what a friggin idiot.” It just doesn’t happen that much, a lot of people make poor decisions under pressure and it results in bad outcomes. Most people are trying their best.
This guy had every opportunity to make a better decision and he was so block-headed that he killed an innocent person. Such an absolute tragedy.
This is like the opposite of a mystery. You wonder how some of the other accidents on this channel would be understood if the pilot had to talk to this many people.
Thank you so much for these valuable videos! Please keep them coming.
Amazing production
Well made video! Thanks!
these are outstanding documentaries. please keep making them!
How that guy still had a medical is beyond me.
I miss the old intro! It was so mysterious and gritty it always gave me the chills. You should definitely think of changing it back.
84 y/o and behaving like a 5 y/o. Maybe somebody should have pulled his ticket? I know we're not "our brothers' keeper", but this makes our community look bad.
These videos are truly excellent. Thank you.
"Determined to move ahead with his plan." After hearing all that I'd hesitate to call anything that idiot could conjur up a "plan."
It's sad that nobody said anything to the passengers about the dangers of flying in that type of conditions.
Maybe next time tell him he can swim out to the plane if he wants to fly.
I like your thinking, but he departed from the dock. When they brought him to his aircraft in the boat, they knew he wasn’t going to take off because he didn’t have his passengers with him. They helped bring him and his aircraft to the ramp. From that point on he got himself killed without anyone else’s help.
You can be too cautious a 1,000 times, but can be too reckless only once.
I'm glad I'm learning all this. In the off chance I'm ever in this situation (not likely) I as a passenger would opt not to ride knowing some of this basic information.
And why was only one side of Elevator up? On the Left side?
It’s a (very big) trim tab.
DR: It's an anti-servo. It provides negative force that counters the pilots' input.
Great report. Thanks.
Great video. Well explained
So many links in the chain leading up to this accident, that would scream stop to most all level headed pilots. The young CFI should have told the passenger that we are not going, and that may have made a difference to the older pilot. My dad was a pilot, and while I was learning to fly and hanging around the airport, he warned me several times of certain personality types to never get in a airplane with.
As mentioned before, high flight time doesn't translate to experience, especially when something out of the ordinary occurs. What is confusing is why the CFI and passenger chose to fly with him. Given the numerous objections, I would have thought they would have bailed and explained they just didn't feel safe flying right now.
excellent presentation
With my limited experience with AMT training, I’m under the impression that you should always err on the side of NOT flying when there is any question of safety. However, hindsight is always 20/20.
I have to imagine the passenger felt uneasy with how many ppl voiced their concerns
I love the drawings of the Lake plane.
Unbelievable! Disgraceful. A big ego is a negative trait in most cases......in aviation it’s a deadly trait!
I'm a CFI with Lake Amphibian time. The pilot was a text book anti-authority pilot who would not take advice from people in the know. Killing just yourself is one thing but killing or injuring innocents is not acceptable. I wasn't clear if the other pilot and passenger were clued in on the danger presented. I would have blocked 🚫 off his exit route. When your right your right. He would have been pissed but alive. Flying with a leaky float doesn't fair well on your weight and balance either.
U know everyone and their dog had the phones outs to shoot video of this breathtaking stupidity.
A pilot's ego is the main culprit in most accidents I see on this channel.
Pilot: „You can‘t stop me from leaving!“
Harbor master: „No, sir, but the buoy, to which you are still bound, could.“
I’m confused as to the direct relevance of flight hours in proficiency to handle a seaplane. Shouldn’t the measure instead be number of takeoffs and landings executed?
It wasn't conditions that killed him, it was pride. His feelings were hurt and nobody was going to tell him he was wrong.
The video identified about a half dozen people who specifically told him he was wrong.
Great educational video friend. Rip Amen 🙏.
I am not a pilot but I do climb mountains. And it's not hard find valuable comparisons here. First and foremost how unforgivable "being wrong" is.
Gravity is always on. It's always perfectly precise. And it doesn't care who you are, who you think you are, who you're trying to impress, or why you think you're right... it always wins. Now adding in the weather, an aircraft, the waves... and other people's lives this takes things to an almost unimaginable level of responsibility and good judgement. Greatest in this profession exist on a different plane, it defines itself by a different set of rules than it does in other areas of life.
I typically look to the conditions of myself (tired), my equipment (needs repairs) and to the weather typically just to know what to bring. In the sport of flying, it's not how am I doing as much as how is the weather doing today.
In my world battling it out in a snow cave with all the cool gear is considered an achievement! But in flying I can see that calmly saying let's go find a cozy corner in the town and have a coffee and wait for the weather to calm down, this act is much more courageous and skillful. I say skillful because managing the ego is the hardest of all task especially if your an skillful pilot that deserves to be admired.
Its customary to explain what acronyms mean at least once.
Thank you!!
Excellent.
I’ve been at the OSH seaplane base. Best place to stay at OSH with a tent or small RV.
These stories are strangely gratifying to me, though I hate to see innocent victims. Uppity PIC died. Good.
Great animation, keep up the great videos
Sad story, seems like the pilot had cognitive problems because he tried to take off tied off and forgot the flaps
Or just rushing. It happens. On a check flight a few weeks ago, I had numerous delays including a change of aircraft that ate up 3/4 of my alloted lesson time. Taxiing out for my run-up, I realized that between talking to my instructor and the tower I had missed 3 or 4 items on the after startup checklist. Had to slow it down again and get my head in the game!
How many pilots have attempted to taxi with wheel chocks in place? Hope I’m not the only one.
I think he was doing the equivalent of a "burn out", leaving in a fast reckless way as to show everyone else how cool and macho you are.
Alice Kottmyer You are certainly not the first. Had a friend that took off with the tow bar in place. The tower advise him and he returned to land. Cost him a tow bar, wheel pant, closed runway to remove debri and a good deal of ribbing.
@@jimarcher5255 How the heck do you get off the ground with THAT hooked on your plane?! Taildragger?
In a word... manslaughter. I have been a passenger in a car operated by a malignant narcissist. During conversation, an assertion of his was questioned and he took offense and began driving erratically. When his dangerous driving was pointed out, he violently pulled over and demanded that we get out and walk the 4 miles to our apartment, then departed in a spray of gravel. This account and taxi/takeoff footage reminds me of that incident. Too bad the passenger didn't have a chance to get out once the danger became apparent. I can't help thinking the CFI passenger has some culpability.
So many knowledgeable folks had the crew's best interests at heart... Sad
Too bad the third passenger did not survive. Pilot got his that day.
I fucking love THIS show, I love the narrators voice I love the low volume music in the background at the beginning, I love everything about it, and I’m not a pilot, but it’s a great show very well composed.
Awesome art work!