3:55 Whoa. After I finished my MEng in Nottingham, I moved abroad. With less than 6 years of experience (and with PE license and recently passed the 16-hour SE exam), I am about to start a job in a few days that pays me the equivalent of 102k GBP per year. I do not live in a large city. Unless it's finance or corporate law, I think the UK economy is running on fumes at this point.
Pay level is not commensurate with stress level. There is not enough people put on jobs. And for those carrying technical work often have to learn or create a process to design something. For instance, engineers know concrete design. How to get the results from 2d finite elements to design check takes thinking. It's stressful not knowing exactly how to design something with a nearing deadline.
I am structural engineer with 7 years of experience in London, now takin my second MSc degree in specialized field just to perform better. What I can effort for my salary to deal with uni fees is a small room in 4th zone. My roommate is bus driver and makes more money than me. His room is the biggest in our flat, the difference is that I spent all my free time on learning and self development, he plays video games and in general enjoys his life. Really disappointing and at the end really regret the career choices. I feel like all other jobs, even those which don't require much qualifications pay more with time than engineering. Unskilled labours make more, it does not happen in any other industry, surgeon will never be paid less than lady who cleans the floor in hospital. This is not to show disrespect to that lady, it's just about reward for education and hard qualifications that we have.
Fantastic as always Dazz! I’m always saying this in the office.. we need to be pushing for better fees. If someone feels a day or two of our time and all the experience and knowledge is only worth £200-300 then we need to push back as an industry or we will forever be in a race to the bottom.
One of the things I hated about my previous work was when they bidded for work and had to deliver presentations to clients, they would say they design for people and value people, yet back at the office they were heavily underpaying engineers and technicians.
Hi Dazz, fellow structural engineer here with 12 years design experience. I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on typical issues with low fees/salaries in the design office. This was partly the reason why I set up my own company and now work for myself. When all the projects are rushed, there is no time for improving your efficiency in design i.e. making spreadsheets, drawing templates, dynamic blocks, researching better software or just discussing how to do things better which means you actually get the jobs done slower because you can't become really efficient at the work you are focussing on. This is also something I invest time in as well as making sure I take work on which is fairly paid which work together because you can get slightly more fee and turn it around quickly because you are well positioned to complete it efficiently. If I don't have much work then I spend time improving my skills or making spreadsheets/dynamic CAD blocks or doing some reading. I couldn't leave engineering though for another career whatever the salary because I really enjoy the work. At least now, if I get the fee wrong then it's my fault! Keep up with the videos they are great :)
Yup, I started my own company too. Definitely the way to go. Now I am making really good money, I have more control over my schedule, I can tell clients an accurate schedule and not have to rush... It is actually more stressful because there is way more non-engineering work to do, networking/marketing/accounting working with CPAs and Lawyers and insurance companies... but the increased pay is worth it.
Yeah mate. Another one here, started up my own consultancy. Tired of delivering impossible deadlines and budgets for people with no appreciation of the changing industry and the stress involved. If I was younger I'd change careers!
Can I please ask you and anyone else that may read this comment who have started their own company. What are the difficulties in starting one with things like legal things like liability incase something goes wrong, and also things like after how many years of experience should we think about starting our own company. And if you don’t mind saying what are the actual pay figures like changing from being employed to self-employed. Like how much will you be actually earning. Is it more stressful having ur own company then working for someone? And if you do have ur own company do you employ other people or just work by yourself? And do you end up with times where you have no work or clients?
Another great video Dazz! It’s interesting that you have put this up as myself and a few other structural (and civil) engineers are asking if its worth it. I have noticed that the fees for Civil and Structural Design seem to be the bottom of the pecking order, yet the client is happy to pay more for basic planning drawings with no construction details or practical applications other than to get through planning. Keep up with the great content Dazz!
Great to know this is a global "concern" from consultant structural engineer. In Hong Kong, the consultant structural engineers are usually under high pressure and take the highest responsibility, and the salary is not reflected well.
Yeah a lot of us Structural Engineer's are suckers, things need to change, we're very capable, integrity-based people, our pay needs to reflect that, no doubt.
Excellent video. As a fellow structural engineer, I agree with most points you mentioned. We should learn something from the association of dentistry in the US/Canada. Minimum prices should be enforced on every firm by the engineering associations but they are toothless, and in a free market we are just running a race to the bottom, which I think we have reached as people have started leaving this industry even after getting a master/PhD. I myself plan to move on to real estate as they have figured out the business much better.
In Panama civil engineers do structural designs, the job is underpaid when is considered the legal responsabilities, and time involved in do Ing the calculations and drawings (in big projects is feasible to hire a drawing technitian.
Absolutely, spot on. Also, the worse the engineer is, the quicker he/ she will do it (as they won't even know, what questions to ask or what to check, they would assume quickly and miss a 100 things) and hence, be more profitable. At the end of the day, if something even does go wrong, the insurance takes care of the liability. The more profitable employee is promoted and the hard-working, diligent, thorough engineer is looked upon as the profit eating burden on the company. The smarter you are, either go on your own, or do something else.
Thank you that you talked about this problem because the responsabilite of structural engineer in his work is like medicine or most because the structural engineer deal with many people. Thanks a lot for explanation.
Interesting video. I'm a practicing engineer in Southern California specializing in single family residences since 1995 and have been working for myself since 2008. I can see your point in fees being squeezed, but perhaps the focus should be more on the final product (i.e. your drawings.) In the 27 years I've been doing this, I find most engineering firms (at least here in the US) separate the responsibilities of the engineer that is doing the calculations and the cad operator that is doing the drawings to save on overhead. To me, this is completely backwards since it's the engineer that knows exactly what should be on the drawings to convey the design to the contractor. Since working for myself in 2008, I've chosen to do everything, the calculations, the drawings and even the invoicing and contract writing. I focus mainly on doing quality drawings since that is what my reputation is built from, not the complexity of the calculations performed. Once you get a great reputation that exceeds that of your colleagues, you will be able to charge more for your services and the poor fees become a thing of the past. With that said, I'm not sure how it works in the UK, but the thing that would make me quit engineering now would be the Building and Safety Departments. Here in Southern California, they are very strict with the comments from plan check engineers quite extensive, usually just to justify their plan check fee they charge the client. Many time, the additional calculations they ask for do not change anything on the drawings leading to hours of extra work for no reason.
I have worked on both sides of the engineering counter. The firms hire the cheapest people and get burned because their buildings have major structural issues. In plan review, they hire less qualified people so they can jack up those plan review fees! I have been interviewed for lots of government agencies and have been turned down so they can hire people who cannot do the job! In other instances, they fired me so they could hire someone cheaper! City of Denver laid me off so my boss can get a $25k raise! No wonder people do not go into structural engineering any more!
Its about economies of scale. At your scale doing it yourself makes sense. If you have a billion dollar job with 600+ pages you cannot engineer, coordinate, and draft. The advent of BIM and the highly educated 'operator' is a paradigm that is more standard now. Its changing but I agree engineers should not be 100% divorced from the drawings. I send models and sketches and draw details but its a collaborative process.
Not taking anything away from you, you deserve recognition for your achievements in your own rights but starting a Company over 14 years ago is different to starting on now. You've had more money and time to build up a reputation and client network. I'm sure your mortgage and living expenses was a lot less too- allowing you more energy, time and money to concentrate on the final product. I'm curious to know if your income has more than doubled in the past 20 years. Also as many have mentioned above, for residential this may be fine - but no way can you deliver any project 15Mil + by yourself.
@@mangoandguitar Your're right. My mortgage and living expenses were way lower when I bought my first house. Of course, as was my income. I was making $18/hour when I bought my first house and 50% of my pretax income when to cover the mortgage, which I only qualified for because I was grateful enough to have parents that cosigned on the loan for me. The interest rate was also 7-3/4%. To make ends meet, I rented out a room for 5 years and on top of working 40+ hours/week in engineering, I delivered pizzas 3 nights/week and all day, every Sunday. Not sure many other engineering graduates would have grinded like that to try to get ahead. It took about 3 years before my income increased to the point where I could quit delivering pizzas. As such, my income has significantly increased over the last 20 years as I took that work ethic with me when I went to work for myself, but most of that income increase came when I became my own boss. Where I used to work, we had an interesting agreement which I have not seen in any other engineering office, where I was paid a percentage of the engineering fee. The more projects I worked on, the more I would make. The catch is I would not get paid until the firm got paid (so I was also tasked with collections) and there were no paid holidays or vacation days. It just got to the point where I was basically working for myself, without ALL of the financial benefit, so it was pretty east for me to make the transition. Clearly what I do won't work for larger projects, but I'm just saying what has worked for me. I will say, I've been able to create a pretty good business and life for myself and family.
@@mangoandguitar Structural Engineer in the US. Worked commercial. You can absolutely deliver 15Mil+ by yourself with Revit. I could do at least 150 Mil by myself if it was my only active job.
I really enjoyed working with some talented guys in the previous job. It was just the stress put me off especially with the endless overtime which was 99% time free for the company. I thought it was a leaning curve so…but soon I found that actually I was not leaning anything from it. How could you possibly absorb design skills from every design was chased and no or little checking done by the experienced senior engineers? Companies should really consider their long term development rather just exploit your employees. Looking back I believe I’ve made a right choice.
I can only address with respect to structural engineering. Structural engineering is at the bottom of the food chain. The market dictates the fees and there is so much competition because everybody wants to own their own structural engineering firm that clients can get by offering small fees, if your company won't take the job then another company will. The amount of work is also dictated by the client as well as the deadlines. And the industry doesn't pay more if the client changes things and you have to do it over, or if the contractor makes mistakes and you have to spend time to fix them. So overall there is a lot of pressure and the work/life balance suffers. I've worked a lot of overtime that I've never been paid for, and I've missed vacation after vacation because I had deadlines and couldn't take time off from work. These days universities are promoting engineering so more and more people are going into engineering, which keeps salaries low and ultimately keeps fees low. Consider this- the real estate agent that advertises and sells the building makes about 9 times as much as the engineering company that designs the building and deals with the contractor during construction.
Well, I have been 7 years in the industry as a structural engineer, mainly working for North America projects (Mexico, US and Canada) and the situation is the same for all the engineers I have meet at the different countries (low pay, tons of stress, zero work-life balance, high personal rotation due to burnout, etc). Now I'm planning to move to the real state sector. Good luck to all!
As a data point, I started as a civil engng grad in 2000 on £20k/yr. I moved away from design work in 2003 as I found it so crushingly dull and moved in to project delivery which was much more dynamic and had a better mix of detail work and human interaction. Engrs are paid less compared to some professions because we tend to sit as a capex cost rather than an accountant say who though themselves are a legal compliance cost can actively 'save' money, rather like the software engr who can save cost by automating workflow and reducing headcount. I suspect too that software has stolen a lot of the civil or structural engineer's thunder when it comes to salary negotiation - software has diminished the value of a design engineer to glorified software jockey....this is especially true I think given that civil design is typically in the elastic, small strain, small deformation range and so more exotic higher order effects that software does not model well and undergrads are not normally taught are neglected. You have to ask if the traditional consulting engineer is outdated and if the one stop shop design-build contractor isn't the more sustainable arrangement - at least they can trade off the design costs to the much larger construction cost and generate both construction savings through buildability and develop proprietary knowledge in both design and assembly technique.
I’m thinking of joining a design office when I graduate in the next couple of months with the low fees and high rents in London, I’m second guessing if it is worth it. I don’t wanna work for 10 to 20 years and have nothing to show for it.
The only questions are 1) how does a client know a 'good engineering' firm. Its not clear and the finances are not in our favor. Spend a lot of money early to save money later MAYBE? (even good firms make mistakes and every priject is different. some projects are destined to fail financially) Or be cheap now and pay a lot in change orders but sue the engineer and get out before it matters. Most developers choose the latter. 2) race to the bottom with fees and engineers taking on jobs they are not qualified for.
I was surprised that in the UK a structural engineer only makes a structural analysis + a few simple sketches. The rest is the responsibility of a technician. A structural engineer in Sweden/Germany/Finland/Russia also develops a 3D model (Revit, Tekla, Advance Steel), blueprints and MTO schedules in addition to FEA. Some of them often use the special tools like Dynamo or C# to implement the design process effectively. Therefore for instance in Russia S.Engineer's salaries are almost the highest in a construction industry.
The role depends on the company, usually in smaller firms a structural engineer will do all the design, modelling and drafting but larger firms tend to separate the drafting from the design/calculations leading to two separate roles: Engineer and technician. The engineer will still use all the design software you mention above but will coordinate with the technician to produce the drawings. The technician will also ensure any BIM processes are followed
"the rest is responsibility of a technician" --> lol, you must be joking mate. Technicians in the UK have a dreamjob. Zero responsibility, zero thinking, zero stress and salaries not much lower than engineers
@@mopo3953 that's the point!) If ur advanced in BIM (Revit/Tekla) than most likely your income is higher than that of your structural engineer colleague) But in some other countries a structural engineer in BIM has the highest income in the field.
100%. This is the same in Australia. I have 10 years experience and honest advice to students is to go find another career. The generation before we us has set up the industry to fail.
@@SavasPapasokratis All the points in the video. Money and stress isn't worth it. Unless you go for a Government job and prepare to lose some brain cells. Engineering and Science are both bad paying jobs for the effort involved. Salaries haven't changed much in the last 10 years but house prices have doubled. CPI this year alone is 7% + Think about future you and your family. This career will curse you with mediocre pay, stress and toxic work environments.
@@SavasPapasokratisive only donestructural engineering full time since graduating 2010. My younger peers have done general business consulting (KPMG, Boston group ect) some have gone into corporate banking another started a Cafe. A few work for builders/ construction companies. Knew one who went back to uni to do an unrelated course.
structures projects are often localised in scope ( i.e 1 building or bridge)... so budget is also heavily constrained, especially in the private sector. Structural engineers are also normally subbed under an Architect... so the slice of the already small pie is cut down further from the developers to architects then to structural engineers. Heck, I have seen mechanical engineers given more priority over structures! The moral of the story is, you want to be as close to the money as possible. If you are down at the bottom of the chain, you will be diluted to obscurity. So if you really want to be a civil engineer, go with transport. That way you get the money directly from the source (govt) and have scale in the scope with easier repeatable designs for many miles... my 2 cents
In my opinions before i watch the video : 1. Ridiculously low pay compared to responsibilities and work we do 2. Lack of training 3. Lack of appreciation for what we do and what we know 4. Too much stress and so many things expected from you to know. (design, repair, standards, materials, analysis, commercial, legal etc etc etc)
9:20 , the fee might be ok compared to total project cost. However, for the larger companies the overheads are insane. The number of non-chargeable employees and general high expense on events etc. is crazy. The engineers are left to suffer the consequences of this model.
You said it mate.Its nearly impossible to leave the work at office,it's always playing in your mind specially refurb jobs where you don't have full information about existing structure and on jobs where the Architect wants long spans with a deep services zone below soffit.
Most of the work engineers do is not seen with the naked eye to the masses so the Architect and the Contractor ends up getting a lot of credit and in turn a nicer fee. The truth is that the engineers can add thousands or take away thousands of dollars from the total construction cost (not to mention time to construct) but instead of getting a nicer fee, they would hear something like "Hey, you did a good job and save us a lot of money .... I want you use again on another job" which is good to hear, but it would be nice if a percentage of that savings when to the engineer.
Hi Dazz. You are very right - the problem is the Construction Industry in general - here in the UK we are obsessed with a race to the bottom. Everyone undercuts everyone else, until we end up with a tiny fee for the experience and value that we bring to the project. This is massively not helped by the Institution that we are forced to belong to (to be Chartered Engineers) - they should be helping us raise the profile of our role so that Clients value what we can offer - instead they are manically obsessed with climate change and sustainability, which is now officially classed as of equal importance to structural safety! As a result, the UK public generally views an 'Engineer' as someone who does things like mend washing machines or fixes the car. They see us as a unavoidable cost overhead, rather than a valued advisor. But don't despair - I am now 39 years into the job and am researching food banks in our area!
I have heard that the new president is more keen on getting things right. The skill shortage and lack of technical excellence in the industry is a big problem and is even recorded in risk register. BTW I will write him an email and the more people expresses their concerns the better. Let’s get this rusty machine moving in the right direction again. Who will join?
OMG! This reminds me of what I went through. I did civil engineering. One of the units I did was structural engineering and I really enjoyed that. That was the best unit. I think I’m a structural engineer at heart. I totally agree with you, people do not understand how important structural engineer’s work actually is. It makes the designers work a reality. And also totally agree how low the salaries are. Its actually shameful, modern day slavery, I personally feel these big companies (across the board in construction) are simply too greedy. If your company is taking on a lot of jobs and still making a loss, they need to question their maths. I think you did the right thing coming to a smaller company. You actually learn much more and more easy to then setup your own once you learn the ropes in that sector or niche. When I first started working I was once part of a big company working as a architectural technician. I was doing a lot of CAD work. They promised my salary will go up, move to managerial roles etc. It never happened. Then one day I bumped into a small book in our office library “how to do a planning application”. It was a step by step guide. I copied the whole book (hell I’m gone buy it on such a low salary), read the whole thing. Pluck up the courage to do (what my then managers were bragging about every month) my own full planning permission. Lol I couldn’t believe it. I got it approved and the local planners treated me like some planning don. I left and never looked back. Compared to what I was getting, I now make more but working half the time, basically double. In fact prior to starting with the bigger company I worked with a very small company for one year. Only after I left the small company and went through what I did with the big company I realised I learnt 10 times more in the smaller company as they give you more responsibility of the overall project. With the big company I was like a CAD monkey. I do a lot of loft conversions now. I use local engineers to get my loft beams calculated. But really now thinking as I have civil/engineering qualification and have a good level of understanding of simple beams (and lofts are usually simple) thinking of learning this aspect and then I can offer this service too. Just not sure how to do this now. Let me know if there is a shortcut way or course (already having a civil engineering degree) that I can do to carry out simple typical beam calculation for typical two storey houses.
@@LightUponLight27 thanks for replying. Most of us International students spend a lot of money coming to the UK to study in hopes we would get better chances.
travel nurses make a shit ton of money because nursing is always in heavy demand and there is high attrition. nurses are not undercut by india and the philippines
Same issue in the US. Salary is better but it's getting harder to make money. I'm working part-time and looking for side job. I'm wondering what platform to use or how your firm go out looking for projects?
Smaller firms I find are better at building lasting relationships with clients/architects. Doing a good job and getting repeat work is what’s keep them going. Word of mouth is also crucial and helps if you do a good job! I find some firms are struggling because their overheads are far too high.
There's a really bad pay to effort ratio in the field. Structural engineers are one of the lowest paid in the civil engineering (or even broad engineering) spectrum. However, structural engineering demands more technical knowledge and higher stress level. It is often the structural engineers doing overtime and the other civils leaving the office on the dot. Going back to the issue about pay... due to the numerous structural systems and materials out there... there is a lot more knowledge to accumulate before you progress your career. In the roading space, it doesn't take long after you graduate to rise the ranks.
Yes.The engg efforts put into by a structural engineer don't go with the fees he receives.But again it is a matter of choice.Structural engineers need to learn from other civil engineering domains like say interior designers,the way they market.
Everything that people care about now is profit. I think changing the industry requires a big sacrifice. A large building collapsing due to bad design with low fees and short design time can change people's minds about engineers. May be.
Life is too short to be in this profession which is overworked and underpaid. The human body isnt made to deal with chronic lack of sleep, chronic stress and long hours in a sedentary job. This is why people talk about depression because for money and a job title you are abusing your body, mind and soul.
Structural engineering is under valued. Too many unqualified providing low quality services. I partly blame the engineers themselves for working for such low salaries. If you are not paid enough don’t do it.
Civil engineering was once an amazing profession that creates art which is why i was interested in it. Now i realize its just a market where 1. contracts are given to the cheapest bidders 2. companies are underpaying their employees 3. terrible work-life balance 4. an unstable market with projects being cancelled or slowed down due to any economic crises. 5. Once you specialize in a field in this industry, you are stuck with it forever so you feel trapped. Younger graduates have it worse because companies are no longer willing to invest in training them while older engineers have contacts that can help them stay afloat if needed. I regret going 4 years of university only to end up working as a modern day slave. I am trying to work things out but the market is very dry in my country. I would appreciate if anyone has some kind of tips or practical civil courses (not theory) for a recent grad so i can learn some valuable skillsets until the crisis passes.
Engineers are putrid rats. you actually thought they were special? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAGAHA
Great to know about the things some engineers never talk about! I'm moving to London for my Msc. in Structural engineering what things should I consider to become a good structural engineer and how is the job market for international students like is it very difficult to get sponsored graduate jobs having no prior experience ?? Please help me out!
In the Netherlands we have a shortage for structural engineers. Not much students go that way afraid of maths and numbers I ges. I good thing for me there would be always enough work and chances to grow and maybe the salaries will go up some day because of the shortage. Salary seems to be slighty higher looking at a senior structural engineer with 10 years of experience that is between (net) 3500 euros or (net) 4900 euros a month (1 GBP = 1.16 EURO) in the Netherlands. To ad to it... thanks for your words. I'll take them with me as a beginner.
I am going to pursue MS in Civil Structural Engineering @ Fall 2022 at University of Illinois Chicago, Planning to do MBA after getting 4 years of experience in good firms and also PE license. I think my decision is good 😊
That's because construction workers arn't effective anymore. We need to replace them with ROBOTS, this will make the budget way higher and pay for engineers will also rise.
On fees, its really just a shitty loop. If you don't quote low, you don't get the job, if you don't get the job, you are out of business so you have to quote low to stay in business and civil engineers end up with shitty fees. Yeah its a free market economy but it is killing the industry. We have a scale of fees, lets get it up.
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3:55 Whoa. After I finished my MEng in Nottingham, I moved abroad. With less than 6 years of experience (and with PE license and recently passed the 16-hour SE exam), I am about to start a job in a few days that pays me the equivalent of 102k GBP per year. I do not live in a large city.
Unless it's finance or corporate law, I think the UK economy is running on fumes at this point.
Pay level is not commensurate with stress level. There is not enough people put on jobs. And for those carrying technical work often have to learn or create a process to design something. For instance, engineers know concrete design. How to get the results from 2d finite elements to design check takes thinking. It's stressful not knowing exactly how to design something with a nearing deadline.
I am structural engineer with 7 years of experience in London, now takin my second MSc degree in specialized field just to perform better. What I can effort for my salary to deal with uni fees is a small room in 4th zone. My roommate is bus driver and makes more money than me. His room is the biggest in our flat, the difference is that I spent all my free time on learning and self development, he plays video games and in general enjoys his life. Really disappointing and at the end really regret the career choices. I feel like all other jobs, even those which don't require much qualifications pay more with time than engineering. Unskilled labours make more, it does not happen in any other industry, surgeon will never be paid less than lady who cleans the floor in hospital. This is not to show disrespect to that lady, it's just about reward for education and hard qualifications that we have.
quit before its too late. If you are stuck doing civil engineering, try another discipline when you do your MSc. You will pick it up real quick...
Is it heavily linked to country?
Are you working full time? You are significantly underpaid if so, 7 years experience in London should be 50k minimum
Fantastic as always Dazz! I’m always saying this in the office.. we need to be pushing for better fees. If someone feels a day or two of our time and all the experience and knowledge is only worth £200-300 then we need to push back as an industry or we will forever be in a race to the bottom.
One of the things I hated about my previous work was when they bidded for work and had to deliver presentations to clients, they would say they design for people and value people, yet back at the office they were heavily underpaying engineers and technicians.
Haha classic
So true!!
Hi Dazz, fellow structural engineer here with 12 years design experience. I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on typical issues with low fees/salaries in the design office. This was partly the reason why I set up my own company and now work for myself. When all the projects are rushed, there is no time for improving your efficiency in design i.e. making spreadsheets, drawing templates, dynamic blocks, researching better software or just discussing how to do things better which means you actually get the jobs done slower because you can't become really efficient at the work you are focussing on. This is also something I invest time in as well as making sure I take work on which is fairly paid which work together because you can get slightly more fee and turn it around quickly because you are well positioned to complete it efficiently. If I don't have much work then I spend time improving my skills or making spreadsheets/dynamic CAD blocks or doing some reading. I couldn't leave engineering though for another career whatever the salary because I really enjoy the work. At least now, if I get the fee wrong then it's my fault! Keep up with the videos they are great :)
Fellow structural engineer here too! This is the current situation of my life!
Yup, I started my own company too. Definitely the way to go. Now I am making really good money, I have more control over my schedule, I can tell clients an accurate schedule and not have to rush... It is actually more stressful because there is way more non-engineering work to do, networking/marketing/accounting working with CPAs and Lawyers and insurance companies... but the increased pay is worth it.
Yeah mate.
Another one here, started up my own consultancy. Tired of delivering impossible deadlines and budgets for people with no appreciation of the changing industry and the stress involved.
If I was younger I'd change careers!
yeah, you need to make those spreadsheets and upskill on software in your own time... the learning begins after 9pm...
Can I please ask you and anyone else that may read this comment who have started their own company. What are the difficulties in starting one with things like legal things like liability incase something goes wrong, and also things like after how many years of experience should we think about starting our own company. And if you don’t mind saying what are the actual pay figures like changing from being employed to self-employed. Like how much will you be actually earning. Is it more stressful having ur own company then working for someone? And if you do have ur own company do you employ other people or just work by yourself? And do you end up with times where you have no work or clients?
Another great video Dazz! It’s interesting that you have put this up as myself and a few other structural (and civil) engineers are asking if its worth it. I have noticed that the fees for Civil and Structural Design seem to be the bottom of the pecking order, yet the client is happy to pay more for basic planning drawings with no construction details or practical applications other than to get through planning.
Keep up with the great content Dazz!
very true, structural engineers are underpaid while doing stressful work
Great to know this is a global "concern" from consultant structural engineer. In Hong Kong, the consultant structural engineers are usually under high pressure and take the highest responsibility, and the salary is not reflected well.
Yeah a lot of us Structural Engineer's are suckers, things need to change, we're very capable, integrity-based people, our pay needs to reflect that, no doubt.
Excellent video. As a fellow structural engineer, I agree with most points you mentioned. We should learn something from the association of dentistry in the US/Canada. Minimum prices should be enforced on every firm by the engineering associations but they are toothless, and in a free market we are just running a race to the bottom, which I think we have reached as people have started leaving this industry even after getting a master/PhD. I myself plan to move on to real estate as they have figured out the business much better.
Great video dazz. Same here in Philippines they don’t realize how important our role in construction industry.
It's stressful, fast paced and the liability is huge and for life.
Exactly Right ON the point
wish your highness all the BEST
💰🛡💎
In Panama civil engineers do structural designs, the job is underpaid when is considered the legal responsabilities, and time involved in do Ing the calculations and drawings (in big projects is feasible to hire a drawing technitian.
Absolutely, spot on. Also, the worse the engineer is, the quicker he/ she will do it (as they won't even know, what questions to ask or what to check, they would assume quickly and miss a 100 things) and hence, be more profitable. At the end of the day, if something even does go wrong, the insurance takes care of the liability. The more profitable employee is promoted and the hard-working, diligent, thorough engineer is looked upon as the profit eating burden on the company. The smarter you are, either go on your own, or do something else.
the diligent worker is trying to cut down tonnage in steel and yardage in concrete to the nats ass when in reality material is cheap. Time = money.
Well said, mate. This is spot on.
Thank you that you talked about this problem because the responsabilite of structural engineer in his work is like medicine or most because the structural engineer deal with many people.
Thanks a lot for explanation.
Interesting video. I'm a practicing engineer in Southern California specializing in single family residences since 1995 and have been working for myself since 2008. I can see your point in fees being squeezed, but perhaps the focus should be more on the final product (i.e. your drawings.) In the 27 years I've been doing this, I find most engineering firms (at least here in the US) separate the responsibilities of the engineer that is doing the calculations and the cad operator that is doing the drawings to save on overhead. To me, this is completely backwards since it's the engineer that knows exactly what should be on the drawings to convey the design to the contractor. Since working for myself in 2008, I've chosen to do everything, the calculations, the drawings and even the invoicing and contract writing. I focus mainly on doing quality drawings since that is what my reputation is built from, not the complexity of the calculations performed. Once you get a great reputation that exceeds that of your colleagues, you will be able to charge more for your services and the poor fees become a thing of the past. With that said, I'm not sure how it works in the UK, but the thing that would make me quit engineering now would be the Building and Safety Departments. Here in Southern California, they are very strict with the comments from plan check engineers quite extensive, usually just to justify their plan check fee they charge the client. Many time, the additional calculations they ask for do not change anything on the drawings leading to hours of extra work for no reason.
I have worked on both sides of the engineering counter. The firms hire the cheapest people and get burned because their buildings have major structural issues. In plan review, they hire less qualified people so they can jack up those plan review fees! I have been interviewed for lots of government agencies and have been turned down so they can hire people who cannot do the job! In other instances, they fired me so they could hire someone cheaper! City of Denver laid me off so my boss can get a $25k raise! No wonder people do not go into structural engineering any more!
Its about economies of scale. At your scale doing it yourself makes sense. If you have a billion dollar job with 600+ pages you cannot engineer, coordinate, and draft. The advent of BIM and the highly educated 'operator' is a paradigm that is more standard now.
Its changing but I agree engineers should not be 100% divorced from the drawings. I send models and sketches and draw details but its a collaborative process.
Not taking anything away from you, you deserve recognition for your achievements in your own rights but starting a Company over 14 years ago is different to starting on now.
You've had more money and time to build up a reputation and client network. I'm sure your mortgage and living expenses was a lot less too- allowing you more energy, time and money to concentrate on the final product.
I'm curious to know if your income has more than doubled in the past 20 years.
Also as many have mentioned above, for residential this may be fine - but no way can you deliver any project 15Mil + by yourself.
@@mangoandguitar Your're right. My mortgage and living expenses were way lower when I bought my first house. Of course, as was my income. I was making $18/hour when I bought my first house and 50% of my pretax income when to cover the mortgage, which I only qualified for because I was grateful enough to have parents that cosigned on the loan for me. The interest rate was also 7-3/4%. To make ends meet, I rented out a room for 5 years and on top of working 40+ hours/week in engineering, I delivered pizzas 3 nights/week and all day, every Sunday. Not sure many other engineering graduates would have grinded like that to try to get ahead. It took about 3 years before my income increased to the point where I could quit delivering pizzas.
As such, my income has significantly increased over the last 20 years as I took that work ethic with me when I went to work for myself, but most of that income increase came when I became my own boss. Where I used to work, we had an interesting agreement which I have not seen in any other engineering office, where I was paid a percentage of the engineering fee. The more projects I worked on, the more I would make. The catch is I would not get paid until the firm got paid (so I was also tasked with collections) and there were no paid holidays or vacation days. It just got to the point where I was basically working for myself, without ALL of the financial benefit, so it was pretty east for me to make the transition.
Clearly what I do won't work for larger projects, but I'm just saying what has worked for me. I will say, I've been able to create a pretty good business and life for myself and family.
@@mangoandguitar Structural Engineer in the US. Worked commercial. You can absolutely deliver 15Mil+ by yourself with Revit. I could do at least 150 Mil by myself if it was my only active job.
I really enjoyed working with some talented guys in the previous job. It was just the stress put me off especially with the endless overtime which was 99% time free for the company. I thought it was a leaning curve so…but soon I found that actually I was not leaning anything from it. How could you possibly absorb design skills from every design was chased and no or little checking done by the experienced senior engineers? Companies should really consider their long term development rather just exploit your employees. Looking back I believe I’ve made a right choice.
I can only address with respect to structural engineering. Structural engineering is at the bottom of the food chain. The market dictates the fees and there is so much competition because everybody wants to own their own structural engineering firm that clients can get by offering small fees, if your company won't take the job then another company will. The amount of work is also dictated by the client as well as the deadlines. And the industry doesn't pay more if the client changes things and you have to do it over, or if the contractor makes mistakes and you have to spend time to fix them. So overall there is a lot of pressure and the work/life balance suffers. I've worked a lot of overtime that I've never been paid for, and I've missed vacation after vacation because I had deadlines and couldn't take time off from work. These days universities are promoting engineering so more and more people are going into engineering, which keeps salaries low and ultimately keeps fees low. Consider this- the real estate agent that advertises and sells the building makes about 9 times as much as the engineering company that designs the building and deals with the contractor during construction.
I think there is a real imbalance between the end value post construction and the actual construction cost.
Well, I have been 7 years in the industry as a structural engineer, mainly working for North America projects (Mexico, US and Canada) and the situation is the same for all the engineers I have meet at the different countries (low pay, tons of stress, zero work-life balance, high personal rotation due to burnout, etc). Now I'm planning to move to the real state sector. Good luck to all!
Great channel 👏
As a data point, I started as a civil engng grad in 2000 on £20k/yr. I moved away from design work in 2003 as I found it so crushingly dull and moved in to project delivery which was much more dynamic and had a better mix of detail work and human interaction. Engrs are paid less compared to some professions because we tend to sit as a capex cost rather than an accountant say who though themselves are a legal compliance cost can actively 'save' money, rather like the software engr who can save cost by automating workflow and reducing headcount. I suspect too that software has stolen a lot of the civil or structural engineer's thunder when it comes to salary negotiation - software has diminished the value of a design engineer to glorified software jockey....this is especially true I think given that civil design is typically in the elastic, small strain, small deformation range and so more exotic higher order effects that software does not model well and undergrads are not normally taught are neglected. You have to ask if the traditional consulting engineer is outdated and if the one stop shop design-build contractor isn't the more sustainable arrangement - at least they can trade off the design costs to the much larger construction cost and generate both construction savings through buildability and develop proprietary knowledge in both design and assembly technique.
@Barry scroggins what do you mean by project delivery?
As a fresh graduate and been working in the industry for few months I am thinking for career change.
Same in the US. Our work is safety but turns into deadlines.
I’m thinking of joining a design office when I graduate in the next couple of months with the low fees and high rents in London, I’m second guessing if it is worth it. I don’t wanna work for 10 to 20 years and have nothing to show for it.
The only questions are
1) how does a client know a 'good engineering' firm. Its not clear and the finances are not in our favor. Spend a lot of money early to save money later MAYBE? (even good firms make mistakes and every priject is different. some projects are destined to fail financially)
Or be cheap now and pay a lot in change orders but sue the engineer and get out before it matters. Most developers choose the latter.
2) race to the bottom with fees and engineers taking on jobs they are not qualified for.
Great video!!!
I was surprised that in the UK a structural engineer only makes a structural analysis + a few simple sketches. The rest is the responsibility of a technician.
A structural engineer in Sweden/Germany/Finland/Russia also develops a 3D model (Revit, Tekla, Advance Steel), blueprints and MTO schedules in addition to FEA. Some of them often use the special tools like Dynamo or C# to implement the design process effectively.
Therefore for instance in Russia S.Engineer's salaries are almost the highest in a construction industry.
The role depends on the company, usually in smaller firms a structural engineer will do all the design, modelling and drafting but larger firms tend to separate the drafting from the design/calculations leading to two separate roles: Engineer and technician. The engineer will still use all the design software you mention above but will coordinate with the technician to produce the drawings. The technician will also ensure any BIM processes are followed
"the rest is responsibility of a technician" --> lol, you must be joking mate. Technicians in the UK have a dreamjob. Zero responsibility, zero thinking, zero stress and salaries not much lower than engineers
A few years ago I contemplated being a techician for those reasons. 😂
@@mopo3953 that's the point!) If ur advanced in BIM (Revit/Tekla) than most likely your income is higher than that of your structural engineer colleague)
But in some other countries a structural engineer in BIM has the highest income in the field.
@@FiftySixish well, you are doing a lot more, I would assume that would mean more overtime. If you look at pay/hr, it might not be so different...
Thank you sir.
100%. This is the same in Australia. I have 10 years experience and honest advice to students is to go find another career.
The generation before we us has set up the industry to fail.
can you explain a bit more? I recently graduated...
@@SavasPapasokratis All the points in the video. Money and stress isn't worth it.
Unless you go for a Government job and prepare to lose some brain cells. Engineering and Science are both bad paying jobs for the effort involved.
Salaries haven't changed much in the last 10 years but house prices have doubled. CPI this year alone is 7% +
Think about future you and your family. This career will curse you with mediocre pay, stress and toxic work environments.
@@mangoandguitar that's how i felt about my internship... very stressful and boring.. what career do you recommend?
@@SavasPapasokratisive only donestructural engineering full time since graduating 2010.
My younger peers have done general business consulting (KPMG, Boston group ect) some have gone into corporate banking another started a Cafe. A few work for builders/ construction companies.
Knew one who went back to uni to do an unrelated course.
@@mangoandguitar very interesting thanks.. im thinking about doing masters of teaching
structures projects are often localised in scope ( i.e 1 building or bridge)... so budget is also heavily constrained, especially in the private sector. Structural engineers are also normally subbed under an Architect... so the slice of the already small pie is cut down further from the developers to architects then to structural engineers. Heck, I have seen mechanical engineers given more priority over structures!
The moral of the story is, you want to be as close to the money as possible. If you are down at the bottom of the chain, you will be diluted to obscurity. So if you really want to be a civil engineer, go with transport. That way you get the money directly from the source (govt) and have scale in the scope with easier repeatable designs for many miles... my 2 cents
The stress that comes with it
In my opinions before i watch the video :
1. Ridiculously low pay compared to responsibilities and work we do
2. Lack of training
3. Lack of appreciation for what we do and what we know
4. Too much stress and so many things expected from you to know. (design, repair, standards, materials, analysis, commercial, legal etc etc etc)
9:20 , the fee might be ok compared to total project cost. However, for the larger companies the overheads are insane. The number of non-chargeable employees and general high expense on events etc. is crazy. The engineers are left to suffer the consequences of this model.
You said it mate.Its nearly impossible to leave the work at office,it's always playing in your mind specially refurb jobs where you don't have full information about existing structure and on jobs where the Architect wants long spans with a deep services zone below soffit.
Most of the work engineers do is not seen with the naked eye to the masses so the Architect and the Contractor ends up getting a lot of credit and in turn a nicer fee. The truth is that the engineers can add thousands or take away thousands of dollars from the total construction cost (not to mention time to construct) but instead of getting a nicer fee, they would hear something like "Hey, you did a good job and save us a lot of money .... I want you use again on another job" which is good to hear, but it would be nice if a percentage of that savings when to the engineer.
Hi Dazz. You are very right - the problem is the Construction Industry in general - here in the UK we are obsessed with a race to the bottom. Everyone undercuts everyone else, until we end up with a tiny fee for the experience and value that we bring to the project. This is massively not helped by the Institution that we are forced to belong to (to be Chartered Engineers) - they should be helping us raise the profile of our role so that Clients value what we can offer - instead they are manically obsessed with climate change and sustainability, which is now officially classed as of equal importance to structural safety! As a result, the UK public generally views an 'Engineer' as someone who does things like mend washing machines or fixes the car. They see us as a unavoidable cost overhead, rather than a valued advisor. But don't despair - I am now 39 years into the job and am researching food banks in our area!
I wonder if I should reach out to institutions either ICE or iStructe and give a talk about this!
@@EverydayDazz People have been trying for years, with little success other than the odd platitude from someone standing for election - but go for it!
I have heard that the new president is more keen on getting things right. The skill shortage and lack of technical excellence in the industry is a big problem and is even recorded in risk register.
BTW I will write him an email and the more people expresses their concerns the better. Let’s get this rusty machine moving in the right direction again. Who will join?
So frustrating, it’s ridiculous, frankly.
Same in Australia. Engineers Australia ignores all that and is instead preoccupied with climate change and gender equality.
Finally! Someone talk about this.
OMG! This reminds me of what I went through.
I did civil engineering. One of the units I did was structural engineering and I really enjoyed that. That was the best unit. I think I’m a structural engineer at heart.
I totally agree with you, people do not understand how important structural engineer’s work actually is. It makes the designers work a reality.
And also totally agree how low the salaries are. Its actually shameful, modern day slavery, I personally feel these big companies (across the board in construction) are simply too greedy.
If your company is taking on a lot of jobs and still making a loss, they need to question their maths.
I think you did the right thing coming to a smaller company. You actually learn much more and more easy to then setup your own once you learn the ropes in that sector or niche.
When I first started working I was once part of a big company working as a architectural technician. I was doing a lot of CAD work. They promised my salary will go up, move to managerial roles etc. It never happened. Then one day I bumped into a small book in our office library “how to do a planning application”. It was a step by step guide. I copied the whole book (hell I’m gone buy it on such a low salary), read the whole thing. Pluck up the courage to do (what my then managers were bragging about every month) my own full planning permission. Lol I couldn’t believe it. I got it approved and the local planners treated me like some planning don.
I left and never looked back. Compared to what I was getting, I now make more but working half the time, basically double.
In fact prior to starting with the bigger company I worked with a very small company for one year. Only after I left the small company and went through what I did with the big company I realised I learnt 10 times more in the smaller company as they give you more responsibility of the overall project. With the big company I was like a CAD monkey.
I do a lot of loft conversions now. I use local engineers to get my loft beams calculated. But really now thinking as I have civil/engineering qualification and have a good level of understanding of simple beams (and lofts are usually simple) thinking of learning this aspect and then I can offer this service too. Just not sure how to do this now.
Let me know if there is a shortcut way or course (already having a civil engineering degree) that I can do to carry out simple typical beam calculation for typical two storey houses.
What country are you and could you like state how much you earn now
@@adelabuidris6292 Uk. Around 50k
@@LightUponLight27 thanks for replying. Most of us International students spend a lot of money coming to the UK to study in hopes we would get better chances.
Looking at it, it isn't worth it as most engineers back home even make a lot more
@@adelabuidris6292 Where are you from and what do they earn in your home town?
travel nurses make a shit ton of money because nursing is always in heavy demand and there is high attrition.
nurses are not undercut by india and the philippines
Same issue in the US. Salary is better but it's getting harder to make money. I'm working part-time and looking for side job. I'm wondering what platform to use or how your firm go out looking for projects?
Smaller firms I find are better at building lasting relationships with clients/architects. Doing a good job and getting repeat work is what’s keep them going. Word of mouth is also crucial and helps if you do a good job!
I find some firms are struggling because their overheads are far too high.
I want to be an engineer bcoz i want to be a contractor someday so i’m not gonna complain about salary. Trading takes care of the monetary part
Engineers supercharge your practical engineering knowledge here 💯💯🚀
There's a really bad pay to effort ratio in the field. Structural engineers are one of the lowest paid in the civil engineering (or even broad engineering) spectrum. However, structural engineering demands more technical knowledge and higher stress level. It is often the structural engineers doing overtime and the other civils leaving the office on the dot.
Going back to the issue about pay... due to the numerous structural systems and materials out there... there is a lot more knowledge to accumulate before you progress your career. In the roading space, it doesn't take long after you graduate to rise the ranks.
Our salary should be the same as a surgeon
if they were, construction costs would not be feasible, especially for smaller structures lol...
too many responsibilities and not enough pay
Yes.The engg efforts put into by a structural engineer don't go with the fees he receives.But again it is a matter of choice.Structural engineers need to learn from other civil engineering domains like say interior designers,the way they market.
Everything that people care about now is profit. I think changing the industry requires a big sacrifice. A large building collapsing due to bad design with low fees and short design time can change people's minds about engineers. May be.
Life is too short to be in this profession which is overworked and underpaid. The human body isnt made to deal with chronic lack of sleep, chronic stress and long hours in a sedentary job. This is why people talk about depression because for money and a job title you are abusing your body, mind and soul.
Structural engineering is under valued. Too many unqualified providing low quality services. I partly blame the engineers themselves for working for such low salaries. If you are not paid enough don’t do it.
Civil engineering was once an amazing profession that creates art which is why i was interested in it. Now i realize its just a market where
1. contracts are given to the cheapest bidders
2. companies are underpaying their employees
3. terrible work-life balance
4. an unstable market with projects being cancelled or slowed down due to any economic crises.
5. Once you specialize in a field in this industry, you are stuck with it forever so you feel trapped.
Younger graduates have it worse because companies are no longer willing to invest in training them while older engineers have contacts that can help them stay afloat if needed. I regret going 4 years of university only to end up working as a modern day slave. I am trying to work things out but the market is very dry in my country. I would appreciate if anyone has some kind of tips or practical civil courses (not theory) for a recent grad so i can learn some valuable skillsets until the crisis passes.
creates art? the architects do that. We just try size structural elements to its limits to cater for the wanky designs.
Engineers are putrid rats. you actually thought they were special? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAGAHA
Don't worry you we a half billion people in India trying to be one.
Why don't they want to be software developers? 2xhigher salaries, easier access to the knowledge etc.
Great to know about the things some engineers never talk about! I'm moving to London for my Msc. in Structural engineering what things should I consider to become a good structural engineer and how is the job market for international students like is it very difficult to get sponsored graduate jobs having no prior experience ?? Please help me out!
If you have a 4 year degree in civil engineering, just apply for a job at an engineering company. Experience will make you a good structural engineer.
@@scottwible1532 Thank you so muchh for your kind information sir !!
In the Netherlands we have a shortage for structural engineers. Not much students go that way afraid of maths and numbers I ges. I good thing for me there would be always enough work and chances to grow and maybe the salaries will go up some day because of the shortage.
Salary seems to be slighty higher looking at a senior structural engineer with 10 years of experience that is between (net) 3500 euros or (net) 4900 euros a month (1 GBP = 1.16 EURO) in the Netherlands.
To ad to it... thanks for your words. I'll take them with me as a beginner.
Glorified slavery
I am going to pursue MS in Civil Structural Engineering @ Fall 2022 at University of Illinois Chicago, Planning to do MBA after getting 4 years of experience in good firms and also PE license. I think my decision is good 😊
MBAs are useless in our field. If you want to do busines, do business. it will be more lucrative
Just go for MBA, don't do Structural Engineering
That's because construction workers arn't effective anymore. We need to replace them with ROBOTS, this will make the budget way higher and pay for engineers will also rise.
On fees, its really just a shitty loop. If you don't quote low, you don't get the job, if you don't get the job, you are out of business so you have to quote low to stay in business and civil engineers end up with shitty fees. Yeah its a free market economy but it is killing the industry. We have a scale of fees, lets get it up.
Exactly. It’s a loop of shit lol
It takes everyone in the industry to help boost our fees
@@EverydayDazz bid low, then bill extra for changes.
Because no one hire me :)