Coaches buses come in Manual, Automatic, and Both . The ZF Transmission
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Coaches buses come in Manual, Automatic, and Both. The ZF Transmission
In this video, I go into the details of what types of transmissions Motor coaches use from the past to present. Are they Manual? Or are they Automatic? Surprisingly ... some have both! The infamous ZF Transmission.
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Check out the volvo I Shift it is fantastic gearbox. the Scania opticruse system is good to. Dam those Swedes are good engineers.
Hey Thank you for that suggestion! I will check it out. Appreciate the comment
@@MotorcoachWorld I second this, I daily a Volvo sedan and can vouch for engineering hours spent where nobody would notice unless they were looking for it. Blew my mind coming from a really nice Ford
9700 are beautiful buses
@@matthewgeist1067 this coach is named 9400 in India and its the best buy since early 2000s
Both systems without clutch. Not as good as the old ones.
This man knows his stuff
I loved the feel of the ZF, yes it could be Rocky for passengers, but it was fun to drive
I have to admit, I’m a truck driver that started early on in the “automatic” takeover in the semi truck market, I had to watch a ton of training videos and read so much documentation from both Eaton and Freightliner about how the “auto shift” transmissions work, and I have to say you nailed this topic. Though, in the heavy truck world things have gotten much better with the Detroit DT-12 and the Volvo I-Shift/Mack M-Drive. While International and Paccar still use mostly Eaton transmissions, which suffer from many of the same flaws as the ZF, they are steadily improving.
My vote is for the Volvo I-Shift, especially if it incorporates the manual mode which was ideal if in slow moving traffic, all the years driving one I never had bother in icy or snowing conditions (Scotland). We were lucky as you were allocated your own coach which is great because you get to know how it runs.
I use to drive for Greyhound they retrofitted about 45% of the MCI-102DL3s with the
ZF-Astronic. It was a major adjustment and it rocked and rolled through those city streets! But once you got a nice stretch of highway! They’d roll easily up any incline. Sadly they retired all of the DL3s. But they had a handful of The Prevost X3-45s with the Volvo I-Shift and that was a pretty smooth 12 speed.
I was very surprised when I saw a DL3 Greyhound drive by me with a ZF in it. I was like.. WOW I didn't realize DL3s had ZFs on them. Then I realized it was something Greyhound did.
I’d have to admit, I didn’t know half as much about transmissions until I saw this video. However I very much enjoy the Detroit diesel/Allison Series 💯🤟🏽🤛🏼
Lol thanks. I'm glad you are getting something out of these.
My name is Aquila Mayfield Sr. And I am a 36 year + 18 wheeler driver, AND a 6 year motor coach driver. I prefer a manual stick shift truck and or motor coach. I was taught by my dad to drive a stick shift trans.And down thru the years I learned to love a stick shift. But I have driven motor coaches such as the Trailway's Eagle with a 4spd manual & THE MCI 9, WITH A 5SPD MANUAL OVERDRIVE. I LIKED THEM BOTH! .BUT THEN I HAVE DRIVEN THE VAN HOOL & MCI & THE EAGLE, WITH AUTOMATIC TRANS,WITH A RETARDER.I HAVE DRIVEN FOR A COMPANY OUT OF ALABAMA,WHERE WE MADE A 5 BUS MOVE FROM NEW ORLEANS LA, TO DETROIT MI. AND A 4 BUS MOVE FROM NEW ORLEANS LA TO ORLANDO FLA . THE TRIP TO DETROIT, ON A MCI 9 5SPEED MANUAL, AND THE ORLANDO TRIP A MCI 9 WITH AN AUTOMATIC. AND I STILL PREFERRED THE 5 SPD STICK SHIFT.BECAUSE THRU THE YEARS I LEARNED HOW TO FLOAT,THE GEARS ON THE RPMS.I HAVE NEVER, DRIVEN A 18 WHEELER WITH AN AUTO. EVERY time a company would want to put me in a truck with an auto I would trun it down for a stick shift. WI trucks, I have driven everything from a 5spd mack, as well as a 5& 4 Mack! To GMC ASTRO'S WITH A 10 SPD,PETERBUILTS WITH 13,& 15 SPD TRNS WITH JAKE BRAKES, TO W-900'S WITH 15 'S TO AN 18 SPD MANUAL. BUT NEVER AN AUTOMATIC TRANS, IN A TRUCK.AQUILA MAYFIELD SR AN EXPERIENCED OVER THE. ROAD DRIVER. OUT ASHEVILLE N.C.
I don't know much about transmissions but I'll always watch these videos for the dad jokes and puns (and to learn!).
I drove a ZF transmission back in the day. I loved it. Once properly trained on it, and got the “feel” of it. I was one of the only drivers at my company that drove it correctly. A few other drivers said they knew how to operate it, but they didn’t causing the owner to get a transmission overhaul. After that overhaul, I was assigned to that bus. Since it was the only one in the fleet with a ZF. I think my knowledge of knowing how to drive a standard transmission helped me with the “feel”. I actually felt like I had more control over the popular Allison transmission.
Thanks for taking the time to write. I can very much relate to you as i felt the same way! We are actually overhauling a few of our ZF's to Automatics with allisons. I loved reading this!
Wow I love your videos and learn a lot from them. I drove semis for 15 years and always wanted to drive a motor coach. Drove an automatic Freightliner Century once and I HATED it...uneven acceleration, hunting at lower speeds and lurching every time I backed into a hole. Give me an Eaton 13 speed any day. Motorcoach World you’re awesome.
Wow what a compliment Clayton Brown. I really appreciate that. Thanks for the story. I love reading about peoples driving careers and tech preference.
Appreciate the comment. Be safe.
I loved that no one drove stick! In college when people wanted to borrow my car my response was “can you drive stick?”. The answer was always no and so I never had to say “no I don’t trust you with my car. I’m not going to risk my car to someone who has no hope of ever paying for the damage if someone were to happen”.
LOVE the ZF Transmission!
I miss the ZF. People in the back would always be like “is this bus a stick shift?”
I know exactly what you mean Donnelle Niven's! I've been asked that question so many times.
They definitely would if they felt the wobbly transmission when its mounted on a freaking midibus with a 200hp (if that) cummins engine. Just not meant for such small buses.
@@MotorcoachWorld ZF passengers be like "Is this bus a stick shift" followed by "Why is this driver so bad at driving stick" CH CC CH CC CH CC
I am one of the operators who LOVED the ZF, having driven them on both Vanhools and MCIs. I would always prefer one over an Allison. Some of the tips and tricks I've used for a smooth but assertive ride:
1. When reversing, pressing the Fn button once to put the transmission in manual mode which kept the clutch permanently disengaged as opposed letting the computer feather the clutch on/off with the throttle.
2. Using both feet to accelerate with both pedals from a standstill. Especially on inclines where the transmission would be prone to hard grabs, I would hold the brake down while engaging the throttle until the clutch is fully disengaged, then gradually release the brakes for a smooth takeoff.
3. Forcing the bus to start in 4 instead of 3, which people have referred to me as the Even/Lazy gears. I find that this gets you up to speed a little quicker and smoother. Especially when the load is light and you're not going up an incline.
4. Knowing the right timing to go full throttle. Knowing that the transmission is designed to let the computer do all the work, and using a combination of #3 and #2 above....I would not let my foot put the pedal to the floor until it is in between gear shifts (usually from 4 to 6), which is your window of opportunity to put the pedal to the floor without any noticable jerks. Once there, keep the pedal flat on the floor and let the computer do all the work.
Some buses were more touchy than others. I recall one bus that I believe would (erroneously?) kick the clutch on and off while coasting, so the bus simply was unable to coast or slow down without jerking and lunging forward. Anyhoo, I miss these transmissions and am disappointed to see them phased out.
Raymond Mii! I love this! Thank you so much for sharing! I learned some of these tricks that you have mentioned here! There was a certain nostalgia to them. I didn't hate them. I had to be in the mood to drive one for the day.
Great info for a new ZF owner. Thanks!
@@MotorcoachWorld absolutely! I am so glad to see a video like explaining the background of it all and explaining to the world that it's not the driver, it's the bus, haha. Ironically, I picked up many of these tips and tricks from other videos right here on TH-cam, which has enabled me to figure out how to love the ZF.
@@rmui4305 I've had so many passengers on my bus when I drove ZF buses on trips come up to me and tell me that I need to learn how to drive a stick.
I tried so hard to explain that this isn't a stick. They wouldn't listen to me LOL
Great information! Thank you! When COVID 19 is over. I’ll be back in a ZF bus and I can’t wait!!
I own/drive a 2007 MCI E4500 with a Cat C13 engine and ZF transmission. I like it, and enjoy the driveability. Except when I was stuck in some mud. The time it takes to go from drive to reverse and back again, combined with the time it took to engage the selected gear (the bus would roll to the bottom of the hole before moving with any real force.) made getting unstuck myself impossible.
Andy and Nancy! Yes I know exactly what you mean. I was on a two bus move and the other bus got stuck in some wet mud. You could not shake yourself out. we ended up having to use a chain and I pulled them out with my coach.
@Motorcoach World where did you hook up the chain to your coach?! I don't see any visible tow hooks on any coach!
@@LegoWormNoah101 ours has two tow hooks in the front. I don't know of one in the rear though.
Give me 3 pedals! The driver-machine connection in a manual transmission equipped vehicle is priceless.
ZF makes amazing transmissions
I love our old 12 speed Prevost’s. I’ve mastered them. Going to San Francisco frequently made me a pro in no time 😁 none of our new drivers like them but i actually enjoy it 😎
It's literally the cogwheel factory in friedrichshafen. Didn't know that
I used to drive buses with none synchromesh gearboxes and now we have drivers that can't even use a clutch.
As the buses get better the drivers get worse because they don't learn the basics.
well said John! Thanks for writing!
Indeed. And the youngsters are just driving a machine to earn a paycheck. The bus biz requires psychology too. votus.us
I've been driving trucks here in the UK for a while and I've had 3 different Volvo trucks in my time. My first one was an 8-speed manual that I used for most of my driving years. As you said, I had all the control of a clutch and when I shifted. I was then given a 2010 Volvo FM with an i-Shift gearbox with 12 gears. I was amazed at how it changed gears. It was basically a manual gearbox but the forks inside the box were controlled by rods and actuators. It didn't use the clutch when changing gears so it essentially 'floated' through the gears. The clutch was only used when coming to a complete stop or performing manoeuvres. It absolutely excelled in this. There was no jerkiness or lunging. If you used the accelerator gently you could feel when the clutch was engaging and you could do really complicated manoeuvres. I am now in a 2017 FM with the iShift and the gear changing is faster and smoother. I've also driven Mercs and Dafs with their own version of these boxes and they don't compare. Trying to reverse a DAF is akin to having the engine revving to about 1500rpm and an on-off button on the accelerator pedal. Busses use a regular auto box although later coaches are using the boxes with an auto-shift/clutch pack. These are for saving fuel as there is no power loss in these boxes.
Thank you for this! I loved reading it! Very good info here. It sounds like you have a lot of experience in this field!
i love the background music you chose it adds alot of fun to the videos
Very informative video James! Your Communications prof would be very proud of your presentation😊
I only drove the ZFs in training and to me it was like driving a manual without any of the advantages😆
I binge-watched your uploads today and await more!
LOL thanks man! Really appreciate that! This made my day to read your comment!
When I got my CDL, my car was a Toyota Matrix 5 speed manual, so I had a slight advantage. The CDL training instructor didn't believe me when I said I have never driven a manual semi before because of how fast I picked up driving a 10 speed manual.
Now I drive a Freightliner with a 12 speed auto, and I would much rather have a stick. Having a lever and clutch pedal makes me feel so much more in-control of my truck than turning a knob and pushing the go pedal.
I agree! much respect to what you said!
Up until 2004, everything I drove in trucks and buses was manual. In 2004 I got a semi-truck that required the clutch only for starting out in 1st gear (of a 10-speed). Loved it (didn't interrupt my coffee drinking). These days, I drive buses with 6-speed Allison auto trannies. No real complaints other than with steep grades downhill, that require the transmission braking, it can cause the tranny to overheat. It helps to know the route and to slow down and to select lower gears before descending the grades. Also, some are better at automatically downshifting than others.
I was building Scania coaches in the mid 80s, they had what they called CAG (computer assisted gearshift). The gearstick was like a game joystick on the dashboard, the current gear was displayed next to it, push the stick to the next gear, then push the clutch at anytime to change to that gear. Never drove them but drivers seemed to like it.
I used to drive for Coach USA. When I started they assigned me a J4500 with a ZF, I absolutely hated it because I had never driven one before. After I got used to it and learned how to drive it.... I absolutely loved it! I drive transit now, I miss driving motorcoach. Great video... keep em coming! Thanks!
Same here I love them I drove for the same company as well
I drive a UK double decker in London. We have Volvo's fitted with these kinds of gearboxes, we call them semi-automatic. They're a electric/ diesel hybrids. When the bus moves from stationary and the side brake is released, the brakes are still actually engaged untill you press the gas pedal. You are right, sometimes the gearbox get confused.
When I first learned to drive automobiles, there were only manual transmissions. Thus, when I began working in the bus transportation system, again there were only manual transmissions on our busses. Them finally when I again began working in the industry many years later, the company that I worked and drove busses for primarily only had automatics, except for two motor coaches that had ZF transmissions. I became only one of two who were able to drive them. Although they were unusual, I found them to be as easy to drive, even with their quirks. And, because they reminded me of the many manual transmission vehicles that I had driven over the years, somehow I developed a love for driving them. Thanks for sharing as I suspect except for people from my era, and especially drivers who have driven busses equipped with ZF transmissions, they probably would not have ever learned of them. I still have photographs that I took of the one that was assigned to me.
Loved reading this! Thanks for writing! These sound like great memories! Thank you for sharing!
I dove headfirst into driving stick when I had to get a new car and after the learning curve I prefer it to autos. I definitely have a greater feeling of control over my vehicle.
I prefer the ZF. I had no complaints from any passenger.
Now there is no comparison to the Allison 6 spd and the volvo 12 speed or Detroit dd-12. Volvo and Freightliner got it right! However many of us old schoolers love a manual! 10-13-18. I think the dd-12 would be perfect for a big bus!
Lol I remember going through the training program at Brewster Canada back in 2006. One of the things we had to proficiently demonstrate was the ability to hold the coach on a hill with the clutch's friction point. Then we had to make the bus move forward one foot and stop and hold again using the clutch only.
Hey Mr Crunchie Crunch. That sounds fun lol. Thanks for the comment!
I say this with all respect that would be awfully hard on the clutch if done for any amount of time. I was always told to use the brakes to hold the vehicle on a hill, then when taking off keep your foot on the break let the clutch out until it reaches the friction point and take your foot off the break then let the clutch the rest of the way out. Unless they were trying to teach people to find the friction point in the clutch pedal stroke.
@@theblindredneck747 oh I agree completely it is very hard on the clutch and you're right it was to teach the drivers about the friction point. It also taught good pedal and clutch control. In fact it better taught drivers to do exactly what you said which was come off the clutch just to the friction point while holding the brake then coming off the brake as the clutch grabs. Another trick that I learned and used to teach when I was an instructor is, to watch your tachometer. You'll notice just us the clutch engages the friction point the needle will jump slightly. This also helps the driver to perfectly synchronize their clutch pedal and brake pedal movement and pull away with zero rollback and minimum wear on the clutch
@Carl Ferrigno so did our customers for keeping them safe in mountainous terrain due to our superior driving skills.
Never wore out a clutch once. My shifting was smooth to the point where I could shift with one finger. More than once I would have a customer come up and say, "Oh, this is a standard? I thought it was an automatic transmission.".
@@millomweb the whole point isn't to use it as regular driving practice but to teach proper clutch control.
No disrespect but there's a huge difference between driving a car and a 12 to 14 ton motorcoach in the Canadian Rocky mountains with 40 to 55 peoples lives at stake.
I learned to drive on a standard trany way back in the day. I had fun going from a dead stop up a 25 degree incline....lots of stalls and gear grinding.
LOL trial by fire
I was blessed to become a driver in the mid 80’s and learned to drive a stick and even was thought by our first mechanic to change gears without a clutch . I had a clutch go out and got the bus home by matching speeds when shifting the clutch. Been 30 years since I’ve driven a stick shift bus but I’d love to get behind the wheel of a MC 8 or 9 or Eagle and take a spin Driven in NYC with a stick
I drove a school bus here in Fort Worth Texas with ZF transmission. I hated it’s so confusing to operate and it was hazardous. I am so glad that our city transit buses have the automatic Allison transmission.
LOL thank you for your comment Gustavo Kennedy! Yes I agree.
I grew in a time when Stick shifts were starting to fade out but my father had the foresight to teach me how to drive a manual transmission. I thank him for that as the skill came in quite handy down the road for me. Time marches on and transmissions keep on shifting just not with our help anymore.
I never driven a coach. But I drive a tractor trailer. I started out with a manual tractor. I loved it. But my newest tractor has a automatic Eaton. I learned to love it. Especially since I can manually shift or use just low gears if needed. But the newest generation of automatics are extremely reliable compared to the ones from the early 2000’s. But sometimes I do miss shifting and splitting gears. But in city or stop and go traffic that Eaton auto is a god send. Love your content. Maybe one day I will try out driving a coach.
Hello James! So late to the party. Sorry! Yes to all that you shared in this video! I actually had a European customer berate me on my driving because I wasn’t smooth enough with the Volvo 9700 with its 12 speed auto shift! Fuel economy is amazing with some of our fleet’s Volvos on long interstate trips. However, city driving: airport shuttles, etc. there is no efficiency difference between it and an Allison. I can go either way and like them both. Chuckled watching some of your fleet jerking around in the lot. Yep… been there, done that!
What you said about a skilled driver not knowing how hard to press the brake has happened to me. 30 years behind the wheel of buses and trucks and my 2019 F150 that has electric braking made me feel like a new driver. I had to shut it off to be able to drive it properly.
I love them! You can't floor it, when you lightly give it gas it moves so smoothly. Just have to practice with it. The company I worked didn't have assigned busses so I used to purposely ask for these busses so I could learn how to drive them.
I enjoyed watching the videos very educational about 🚌 buses to learn.
I remember two years ago, I was riding up front of a MCI and we was coming back from Special Olympics winter games in New Jersey and saw how the driver didn’t have a clutch to use because he had the ZF astronic 12 speed semi auto. It started out in 3rd
And the Jake brakes sounds more amazing with the ZF astronic transmission
Hydromatic transmissions were available before WWII in Oldsmobile and Cadillac as an option. Flathead Cadillac V8 and Hydromatic transmissions powered many tanks through WWII. My first car was a 1946 DeSoto with fluid drive and an automatic overdrive. Hudson had a vacuum shifted manual transmission in the post war period. My 1956 Chrysler had push button powerful item transmission. 1964 my Renault had a relay shifted push button nightmare of a transmission. 2007 my Freightliner had an Eaton Fuller Ultramatic electronic shifting manual transmission that was slow to accelerate and wasn't precise when trying to back up to a dock. What I really like is the one speed electric transmission in my Hybrid.
Loved reading this! Thank you for taking the time to write this.
The Ford model T had a planetary transmission, outlawed in 1927 which standardized H pattern with a clutch, brake and accelerator pedals.
I haven't looked through the comments, but I remember when the Volvo 9700 first came to the US market and didn't come with an Alison option. Although when I drove one I did feel that the i-Shift worked a lot better then the ZF did. Plus the D13 engine combination is great in my opinion.
Hey 👋 my brother. I’ve been a Motor Coach operator for 17 years in the Nyc area. Do to COVID I stopped driving buses and started driving trucks. I do have a Class A license. I miss driving buses. I used to love ZF transmission I loved the snore sounds that the bus made. Hopefully after everything is over I will be able to get back into the bus industry. Thanks for the videos. Best wishes to you.
30 years from now, people are going to struggle to drive a car as autopilot becomes mainstream.
I know! that's scary to think about.
Sad, but true.
People struggle to drive cars *now* even without it
@@counterfit5 yep. Too distracted by their phones. 😑📱
IKR!!
I started working for a transit bus company about 6 months ago as a driver. All buses in our fleet uses these automated manual transmissions. I have to say I'm on the 'hate' side of the fence to these transmissions especially when all my own cars are stick shifts. Not only do they exhibit all the disadvantages as you've mentioned in this video, a lot of them also do not shift properly due to age or poor maintenance or both, making the ride a very jerky and uncomfortable experience.
Over time, I've slowly discovered on my own on how to operate these transmissions in the smoothest possible way. Things like avoid pressing the brake at a certain rev range, easing or flooring the accelerator pedal under certain conditions to avoid unnecessary shifts, and some other weird things that I can't describe in words in order to operate these transmissions as smoothly as possible. The positive thing about all this is that it makes me a much more conscious driver as it involves a lot more forward planning.
When these transmissions work properly though, they're a pleasure to drive especially for transit buses that are required to stop often in heavy traffic. I do feel powerless a lot of times like you mentioned in this video, and I hope that stick shifts will make a return to buses, but that will only happen in my dream now.
As a semi truck driver, auto transmissions have really started to take over the trucking industry over the last decade, although I still prefer the manual transmission....auto transmissions have been in busses a lot longer, however when I was recently in Jamaica the majority of the coaches were manual transmissions.
I once rode a coach bus with a ZF transmission, and it jolted forwards so hard, I was knocked to the floor, and landed pretty hard. It wasn’t any better that I landed on my back either. Let’s just say there was plenty of shit talk about that coach bus that threw me to its floor afterwards.
I've also heard a ZF AS tronic style transmission called an Automated Manual transmission
Truck driver here! I've driven every kind of transmission you explained here, I still prefer a manual. Hell, we even have problems with the Allison transmissions in our box trucks. I personally think they're a very overrated transmission...and they don't shift when you want them to, and when you do, they don't. Every truck driver I talk to hates the automated manuals, also. Jerky, hard to back into docks, just too many computers.
Over here all public transport companies have been using automatics in their bus fleets for decades now. Tour/charter fleets still use manual stick shifters but they have been phasing those out. Granted those tour/charter fleet have busses that give you the option to manual shift but they are essentially automatic transmissions.
As for the new drivers depending on the drivers school fleets most of them only learn to drive on automatic which is not a problem considering the vast majority of them will end up in public transport. Also, they will get a Automatic only restriction on their CD licence.(IIRC that restriction gets dropped in future legislation). Though, most people drive stick in their private vehicles over here. Granted most tour/charted companies still prefer applicants who have had their drivers lessons on manual stick shift busses.
The main difference I found out was when drivers who were used to the Allison would put the accelerator down to the floor till they got up to speed. When they jumped on a bus with a ZF Transmission and did that the bus got jerky. If you knew how to drive a ZF all you had to do was put your foot halfway down and let the transmission go through the gears and when it got up to 6 then you could put your foot down. I drove in all conditions in DC. Stop and go and long run charters. I did a charter with an identical J-4500. I had a ZF 10 speed and the other had the Allison 500 6 speed. We went from Wash DC to NYC. We both drove the same routes and the same streets. Both buses had the Cat 13 engines before they stopped using them for OTR use. With full tanks there was no need to fuel up till we got back. When the tanks were fueled up upon our return my bus took less fuel. We figured that the ZF had gotten close to 8 MPG and the Allison was more like 5 MPG. Both buses at the time had less than 25K miles on them.
Thanks James. The ZF could be tricky at times but it was much better than the Allison for OTR Trips. I used to drive a 2008 Von-Hool T model that had a 231 gallon fuel cell. What was nice if you fueled up at a truck stop it could be fueled on both sides. Loved it. When the tank was full the slave pump turned off automatically.
Very nicely put together video and very entertaining as well. Thanks for posting this.
Thanks for the kind words ☺️. Much appreciated.
Another great video! The old look transit bus shown in the video. Received that nomenclature, after GM introduced the glass fronted new look transit bus in 1958. That coach remained in production until 1980, when they were sold to MCI who continued to build The coach as the MCI classic after a front end redesign.
Wow. A manual Yota! I wish my power stroke had a manual. Another informative video…I always wondered. (I used to ride a lot of coaches - New York City to Toronto every weekend!)
Totally agree about learning manual!
Nice video! The public transport company in my area (Italian Alps) has a couple of Mercedes-Benz O404 commuter buses with an automated manual transmission, I believe it's called PowerShift and it operates sequentially with a lever.
Other than that most buses (city and commuter) have a ZF 6-speed automatic, while some survivors from the 90's have a manual transmission.
Most motor coaches are still manual though.
Rode greyhound to NYC one time back in the 90's it was a manual, the clutch took a dump inside the lincoln tunnel, we had to get off the bus and walk the rest of the way through the tunnel and on in to port authority 🙃
Wow that sucks. Thanks for posting this. I enjoyed reading it. Sorry that happened
@@MotorcoachWorld luckily i was kid at the time so it was funny and cool to walk through the tunnel to me 😂👍🏾
I learned how to drive a motorcoach bus when I got hired to the Gen mgr position for Ddbusses llc in chgo, of his limosiune div, when I was asked one day by the owner to take an open top dbl decker bus to swap out on the tour route and those English busses are stick shift but with no clutch, and it took a day to figure it out, had a great teacher from their I learned how to drive the neoplan busses , great experience all around
Thank you for the comment Juan. I enjoyed reading it.
I agree 100% on zf automated trans.i drive a semi for past 20 years.it is a sluggish and frankly no business being in coach and big rig.
Hi James! When i drove for a large Coach Company here in South Australia , I did line runs around the state, the company had a large number of Scanias with opticruise transmission, never had any problems with them, and they were certainly better going up hills than the old Dennings with two stroke Detroit engines and 6 speed spicer manual crash gearboxes!!
lol… I must be old…. I understand what you said!!!!
@@toddedeker3528 😆
Thanks for all the care to detail and the effort that you put into the bus.
I trained in the military with 21 speed air automatic transmissions and many manual transmissions. The air shift transmission had to be started in a higher gear when the vehicle was empty and a lower one when full. This was in 1983 while in the U.S. Army and was on the 915 model trucks.
Thank you for your service! Thanks for taking the time to write to me! Much appreciated!
The name old look came after GM introduced the fishbowl bus in 1959. Before the Fishbowl, most city buses from different manufacturers looked alike. ZF transmission Dodge Chargers and Challengers ( the SRT, RT Daytona and Super Bee models when they were part of Diamler) are highly coveted vehicles. The Allison transmission is also used in GM diesel pickups, buses and the Abrhams tank.
I drive an International school bus. Manuals are nearly unheard of nowadays in school buses. Even back in the 80s when I was a kid, I believe there was only one old Blue Bird / Chevy with a manual. My bus has an Allison, I've gotten to know its behavior pretty well. Most of my cars have been manual; I'd definitely like to try a manual bus but it is nice to have the convenience of the auto. I drive in northern NJ so there's a lot of stop-and-go traffic, besides the actual school bus stops.
I saw the fire department transition to all automatic. After they took manual transmission out of the driver training, there was an awkward period where some stations still had manual. That was fine until the Engineer called in sick and newer firefighters weren't able to TA (Temporary Assign). It was a badge of honor to get a relief assignment outside of your station to drive a manual transmission. As cool as manual was, automatic sure makes life easier.
LOL That is hilarious! But yes you are right. Not having to worry about that training really helps!
I drove for a few bus/coach companies for 20 years ... I started out on manual trannies (yes, I blew a few shifts ... who hasn't!) ... I admit auto trannies took some understanding and training ... give me the manual transmission any day !!!!
At one point, I drove a 3 tonner truck with an AS transmission. It would often select the wrong gear and it wasn't ideal for constantly stopping and starting. I think part of the problem was that it was easy to drive it like a traditional automatic transmission. But then later on when i learnt to drive a semi truck. I leant in a Volvo with an AS transmission. That was no problem and it went well, but at the same time, I treated as if it was a manual. I think a practical way of resolving the problem would be to retain the automatic clutch, but leave the gear selection to the driver with a stick shift like a manual.
I ve driven a vanhool with both an allison and the zf, this one was a twelve speed. I liked them both, but because i was warm to the idea of a auto mated manual motorcoach, i liked the zf better
Our present fleet has 1 ZF and the rest is half ishift and half Allison. We drive up to 4 different vehicles a day, so you can bet your shirt that we hate the ZF most, it's like having a helper who doe's not know his job. The ishift is much better, but still a pain in stop-n-go traffic. The Allison is best for us. For a while, the company got ishifts but had more problems than expected, so it is Allison again. By the way, we have Prevost only (except for one lonely MCI).
LOL we used to have a bunch of ZF's. We have started to phase them out. One of our ZF's was a Prevost. It was the jerkiest one we had.
James I love driving a manual transmission again considering that's how I started my driving career back in 1981. With that being said I love the ZF transmission because I know to drive with it. The biggest problem as to why this not a fan favorite is because the average driver has no real training on them and the companies that have them in the fleet do not issue the drivers any literature on them so it's kind learn as you go kind of training. Well I downloaded the operators manual from Prevost and learned how to use the transmission and now I'll drive a ZF over a Allison every chance I get. Look a t this way how many drivers out there know they can manually shift a Allison especially in heavy snow .... not many because the weren't instructed on it. A educated driver will handle the equipment better and that's a fact.
Be safe out there!
Thanks for the video and the explanation. As someone who is blind and has ridden in Coach buses for most of my life, I prefer standard transmission to automatic, because I find automatic kinda boring, except for the 1980s buses with the wind-up of the gears as the driver goes from one gear to the next. Sure, Standard does feel kinda jerky when going from one gear to the next, plus there is a shaking sensation before the bus accelerates in first gear, as the RPMs go up. I noticed the same thing with ZF transmission and I had no idea what that was and it was called Semi-Automatic by the various drivers I had met, when they had either taken me to or from my destinations, or in passing helping me to get to a bus stop when I was on the way home. The first time I had encountered this type of transmission was on Go Transit, when I was going from Toronto to Hamilton on a day trip in the winter of 2005. Then, I had come across another bus in April of that year, when going from Barrie Ontario, back to Toronto after another one of my day trips. Those buses were fun to ride in and listen to the RPM's go up and the occasional whistle, as the driver would go from one gear to the next.
On fleet we have a zf and Allison transmission, I don’t recall ever doing any repair work on Allison. Zf ASTRONIC’s we constantly have to replace the GS3 units
I’ve had my CDL and been driving transit and motorcoach buses for about five years now. I’ve been lucky enough that I’ve never had to deal with a manual transmission ever in a bus.
At the charter company that I work for I’m told that just before I hired on the last of the manual transmission buses were retired. These were described to me as an Eaton where the driver had to operate a clutch to start from a complete stop, then the transmission would shift automatically up and down after that. Is this something you have heard of?
On motor coaches all the ones I’ve driven have various flavors of Allison. I really like the 500R with the retarder, much smoother than the jake.
I was driving a bus about 12 years in Israel.
Most of the buses I drove were with ZF Ecomat 5 or 6 gear transmission that have a very smooth gear shifting.
I also drove a bullet proof Volvo bus with Volvo I shift 12 gear transmission that was very similar to the ZF Astronic transmission.
Thank you for your comment! I love reading from people in the bus industry from other parts of the world! Yes I have heard a lot about the I Shift. There are some here too! Thank you for writing!
At VT 4:00 you show a row of Buffalo. Talk about shifting. The Buffalo drove like sports cars.
If you knew music, you could shift gears without the use of the clutch.
Given the initial note of the low gear engine whining as the base note, you could shift smoothly into the next highest gear when the whining of the engine reached a pitch Five Half Notes above the base note.
The difference between the first note and the last nite of a major chord!
You'd still have to double clutch when downshifting.
I drove a Buffalo in NYC.
Lots of downshifting.
The old Silver Eagle was also fun to drive. votus.us is all I can drive now.
I love the ZF Transmission!! I had to drive a lot of the ZF in NYC, DC and other places and every time I got a ZF bus, I was excited to drive one! We have MCI & PREVOST with a ZF. Now the new Prevost I would like to see Volvo I-Shift transmission. And the new MCI, I would like to see ZF.
Thanks for the comment. Kyrcho S. Moscato.
Loved your story. one of the toughest ZF transmissions I've driven was on a Prevost.
My first time driving in NYC & the Hamptons was on an MCI with a ZF. I absolutely love it!
So lucky to find a manual Taco!
Just spent a week touring Italy in a really nice Mercedes coach with an autoshift transmission, probably an AS tronic. Acceleration when entering the freeway was in fact fairly slow as described. But the bus performed well pulling up steep hills or crusing at freeway speeds. Shifting was slow but very smooth. The driver, a very experienced professional, was not a fan of the transmission. He much prefered a manual.
The astronic is a nightmare but the ecolife is a blessing, we run a Vanhool TX16 Alicron with the ecolife, brilliant!
Thats really cool I would love to see some pics of it if you want to send me some. JWang@peoriacharter.com If its ok I will use it in some of my videos.
Here we got rid of those 10 speed and 12 speed transmission, thank God. In snow and ice you can get stuck and have a bad experience, on downhill it goes faster and on rail crossing from stop and go you could get hit by a train. Many routes had to be changed due to this, in a fresh green light you can expect to see red before you get to the other side.
I have only driven manual transmission and automatic transmission buses. I have been a passenger in a motorcoach with a ZF 12 speed transmission. I knew then if I were to ever drive one, I wouldn't like it. If I were to ever own a motorcoach bus or company, I would only have automatucs. I liked the 4 speed manuals back in the day, but not in heavy traffic. I didn't care for the 5 and 6 speed manuals. I think if manufacturers had stuck with 4 speed manuals, training new drivers on sticks would've been better and easier. With multiple gears being close together, it would be hard for a newbie to find the right gear . Even then, different buses with the same manual transmissions had different shifting patterns. Prevost 4 speeds were different from MCI. MCI clutches were heavier than Eagles or Prevost.
Speaking of Eagles, you should do a video on those, even though I don't think Peoria Charter ever had any.
Also, wasn't Peoria Charter once Peoria Rockford bus? When was the company split up? Peoria went on to be a successful company. Rockford bus company, well, not so much.
Thanks King Arthur! I definitely will add a video about Eagles on my to do list. Thank you for the suggestion and all this info! I love reading posts like theses. Appreciate you taking the time to write!
Some of us had that opportunity to drive that 10-speed MCI semi-automatic.
I did have the chance to drive one of two Adirondack Trailways rare bird busses back in the early 90s.
They were fun to drive once you get used to the clutch. That clutch required close to 20 ft-lbs. of pressure to put into reverse or first gear. The ZF transmission gears were very close (short) together which made the ride herky-jerky, so I've changed the sequence of the shifting pattern by manually shifting the bus from granny (1st) gear, advancing the selector up two bumps to (3rd gear), two more bumps to (5th gear), two more bumps to (7th gear) then placing the gear shifter back to auto to reach 8-9-10th drive gears. The gear selector was on the right side of the driver's seat. It's difficult to explain how the shifter works, auto is standard right and manual to the left. To select a manual high gear, pull the shifter to the left and use your thumb (click) and select electronic gear change. To go into a lower gear, keep the gear selector to the left and pull back on the shifter in manual mode.
That MCI bus was outfitted with a Caterpillar engine, and the combination of the two was a driver's dream for power and non-oil leaks, unlike Detroit Diesel. Those two busses were converted back to fully automatics close to 2 years after purchase because AndirondackTrailways was pool-sharing equipment with Greyhound between the Montreal/Toronto corridors. Some Greyhound drivers never drove a bus with a clutch that gave the passengers the best ride of their lives🤮🤕😫😖😮🤬😡😱. And, burning out the clutches.
Overall, it was a fuel saver which got 10 miles to the gallon compared to the other units that got 7.
Anyway, my favorite bus in our fleet was an old MCI 9 that I drove from NYC to Oneonta, NY. I was a line run driver. That bus, number 62975 MCI 9 manual 4-speed takes a master to double-clutch. I've shifted that bus so smooth that some thought it was automatic. It’s all about running the engine close to the governor, clutch and listen to the engine wines down, double-clutch put into gear, and then feather the gas pedal for a smooth increase of speed. It's about timing and motor noise for a perfect gear change. I've put my heart and soul into every ride, I do understand the thrust line avoiding frontend motion sway, something Greyhound did not teach me. but I perfected. I've always wanted to be a bus driver and it's my first love, my dream job.
To:
Mr. Berardi of Adirondack Trailway, thank you for allowing me to become one of your drivers from 1991 to 1998 and Greyhound, 37 weeks of employment before the strike in 1990.
My dream jobs have been fulfilled, being a Bus Driver and a Sanitation Worker for NYC.
L. Rochester
In Europe, because of the high fuel prices, motorcoaches and semi trucks etc that's designed to go on the highway for a long distance will almost always have an 'automated manual transmission' which is made by many companies alongside ZF, these transmissions can sometimes save 10-15% fuel. While city buses (transit buses) will have a traditional automatic transmission due to frequent encounters with traffic and standing passengers.
I have driven quite a few of the various "automated manual" transmissions on the market in recent years in all kinds of vehicles from cars to tractor trailers.. Most I drove had manual modes which in most cases allowed much more flexibility in certain situations.
I started in twin sticks almost 50 years ago, so I have driven them all. My preference is still a full manual transmission in most heavy vehicles.
Incidentally ZF is the manufacturer of the infamous Ford Focus transmission that had the software issues in 2010.
Thank you for your comment! you sound like a guy with a lot of knowledge in this kind field!
You seem to be the only person who understands how uncomfortable autoshift transmissions are...
As an American, (and now, a truck driver) I was very surprised when I visited Korea, to find that the airport coach I boarded to spend a day exploring Incheon had a manual transmission. I didn't notice as I boarded, but I could see the driver's shoulder moving with every gear change as I rode across the bridge to the mainland from ICN. He was a good operator and the ride was fairly comfortable.
My regular gig is school bus driving. Allison seems to dominate SB’s. I have a side hustle with a charter bus company. I drive a coach bus with a ZF transmission. Your description of the ZF is spot on. I find it slow to accelerate and balky at low speeds. It tends to jerk the passengers when taking off from a stop; no matter how you make fine adjustments on the accelerator. However, at high speed interstate driving the ZF is a real sweetheart to drive. It is smooth and fuel efficiency is very good.
Hi having driven coaches for 25 plus years I’ve been lucky to had manual, seni automatic and fully automatic, didn’t really like the semiautomatic but did enjoy the fully automatic, thanks markUK
Haha yes I agree with your sentiment. I prefer either full Manual or Full automatic.
I had the EXACT experience you describe at 8:27 riding a Greyhound from Toronto to Ottawa when I was about 11or 12 years old. While not really a car enthusiast per se I recognized the sounds and motion of the shifts as being consistent with a manual trans and though "hey that's cool, you don't see that much anymore!" While getting off in Ottawa I snuck a glance at the driver's station and - just as you say- was dismayed to see only 2 pedals and a "DNR" pushbutton panel like any old automatic! I remained at a loss to explain this episode for almost another decade until I started driving dump trucks and heard mention of the "automated manual transmission" as they are often called up here. Sadly I became old enough to get into the workforce just as the wave of auto and AMTs was beginning to take over the industry, and only had limited opportunity to experience driving a "real" truck. While there are certainly pros and cons to all the types, manually shifting gears and the skill and knowledge needed to do it properly was definitely one of the things that caught my interest as a kid and made me want to pursue the line of work, sometimes I wish I had been able to start driving a decade sooner!
Also, I've really enjoyed your videos! I didn't really have a particular interest or professional concern with coaches, but a well made and informative video is always enjoyable and turns out to be quite interesting, regardless of the topic! Keep up the good work!
I really enjoyed reading your comment. Thanks for posting.
@@MotorcoachWorld I'm glad you did, thanks for the reply!
I started driving buses and coaches here in NZ 35 years ago. Back then, everything was manual. In the first fleet I drove, we had 5 speed crash boxes (no syncro. Had to change at the correct revs otherwise things got very crunchy) and 12 speed ZF split boxes in our Volvos. The company I'm with now has a mix of 6 speed (mechanical) manual, 6 speed electric (EGS) manual, full auto and AS Tronic. Not really a fan of the AS tronic as the computer can't see the terrain ahead, can't detect ice or snow, and generally makes some weird gear changes at times. I find myself slipping them in to manual mode a lot of the time which gives me better control and smoother changes. They're also a pain around city streets as mentioned in the video. Thankfully my permanent coach is an EGS manual.
Hey Mikey! Loved reading your post! Very interesting. I always enjoy meeting people in the bus industry from other parts of the world. I want to see all the different perspectives from them! Thanks for writing!
I drove Double Deckers with ZF transmissions for over a year with MegaBus and drove some MCIs that had ZF as well and I drive MCIs and Prevosts with Allisons now and I much prefer the Allison.
I think ZF are good for Double Deckers, but not standard Motorcoaches
I love driving a Volvo 9700 with an I shift and after getting used to it have no problems. It's a driver's bus. Although I will admit that an Allison transmission is smoother I still like the learned skill of driving the I shift.
I've always enjoyed the Allison world transmission and my MCI has the solid HT740D
Nice. Yes The Allison with a Detroit 60 is a great combination for a coach. Smooth ride!
Long before American adoption of auto transmission in buses here in the U.K. we had the Wilson Pre Select transmission, CAV pneumoniacyclic , Daimlers Daimatic Semi and Automatic transmissions
Manual Buses are great for long haul driving, Automatic is great for school/urban route running. An Semi-Automatic shifter is the best of both worlds :)
your depth of knowledge is amazing
Thanks Michael! Appreciate the comment!
I drive a Volvo Truck with a 605 Volvo engine and an Extreme I shift. That a 12 speed. This is a heavy specd Heavy haul truck and my weight grosses up to 225000 lbs. I did put a 2 speed air shift transmission behind the main I shift which helps me take off on steep inclines and also is handy for maneuvering. It is either in direct drive or it cuts the speed in half. The clutch works great and it shifts smoothly. The Volvo I shift has been around for a while. However, more and more heavy haul trucks are putting in Allisons.
I have driven both standard transmission coaches and allison auto ones. The allison 6 speed is a good trany. I liked them better than the old standard tranny coaches. I have never driven a zf auto-standard bus but I have ridden on them and I don't like the because they are slow. Ironically the car I currently own is an dual clutch automated standard and it's fast and I love it.
haha very nice. I have a manual transmission car. I enjoy driving them better than Automatics. Thanks for comenting!