REL Acoustics Takes Subwoofer Pairing Serious. Learn Why and How We Make Subwoofer Recommendations.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ม.ค. 2024
- So let's talk a little bit about how we recommend subs and what are some of the criterion we look at because we are really, really specific. These are not casual. Oh, well, everything above this price point gets this subwoofer. Everything below that price point gets this one. It is not a rote exercise and it can be confusing to people on both ends of the scale. Alright? I was just in Munich a couple weeks ago and really one of our best distributors anywhere in the world sells, I don’t know, 30, 40, maybe 66 packs a year. They're fantastic. They're wonderful people. Warm, encouraging. And I asked him, I said, you're not really curious. You sell an enormous number of 812 6 packs, but almost no 510s. What's going on with that? And they said, oh, you know, in our market wealthy guys, if they're gonna go for it, they're gonna go for the best.
So it'll either be an 812 or something like a carbon special for that size and caliber of speaker. If they're gonna do the refs, they're gonna do ref 32s only. Like if they really couldn't fit it through the door where they do a 31. So it's just sort of a pride and ego thing. They're like, Hey, you know, if I can afford it, I'm just gonna go as far as I can go. On the other end of things, we have people who under buy subwoofers like crazy, right? Who get a T/5x when what was really needed for that system was a pair of T/9Xs, the room, the speakers really would benefit from it. So I thought we would actually share a little bit about how we and, and what we listen for both in the field and in our development studios.
So there are a few different things. First of all don't make the mistake of thinking you can shade a class. What do I mean by that? TX is one class and category of subwoofers. They're our best all arounders, they're an incredible value. They don't cost much for all the cool things they do. Then the step up is to Serie S. When we say you need a Serie S, you need a Serie S. They do everything better by a lot. So we see these kinds of transition points as areas of confusion for people. Do I do, maybe do I do like two of the T/9Xs or one of the S five tens or even an 812 depending on the speaker? That's a confusion point and we'll clarify that. But the difference in speed in solidity, in depth and slam and extension low base on a 510, it is a profoundly better experience than a T/9x or even a pair of T/9Xs because that make the T/9x lesser or bad. Not at all. It's developed for speakers that don't have those kinds of characteristics that need that. So what do we listen for? We listen for all of the things I just mentioned and a bunch of others, but the first thing is we start to go down through our punch list is what's the speed of the speaker? Is this a really fast sounding, you know, transient, intensive speaker, or is it something that's just a pleasant all arounder? That right there may be the offset difference between a Serie S on one hand and a TX on the other. Remember, the TXs are faster than almost all the speakers are likely to be paired with. So it's not a matter of slow versus fast. Both of them are fast, one is faster. And we start looking at scale. How big a sound is this speaker pairing likely to be able to make?
Right? If you're talking about something like, oh, Bowers and Wilkins 702D3s, it's a $5,000 pair of speakers. They make a pleasant, medium sized sound stage. It's a really nice speaker, really beautifully balanced, top to bottom, doesn't really do anything wrong for the money. That's a pairing where a pair of T/9Xs works brilliantly. Start with a single add. The second one later, we've got no agenda around that, but that's a perfect T/9x pairing. Then you start going up into things like, I'm just staying within Bowers and Wilkins so people don't think I'm jumping from line to line and confusing or showing preference. Go up to their 800 series, go up to something like an 803 or an 804. You are no longer pairing with 9Xs. That's immediately at least an S510 pair. Fast speakers really benefit from pairs as pairs are not about more base. They're about being able to get perfect left and right. No room is symmetrical. The better the speaker is, the more you hear those kinds of things, you don't necessarily know why, but what it results in is a very narrow dark sound stage. Everything sounds great up front, but as you get back into the drum kit and things back here, it gets narrow and narrow and stereo pairs open up the outer two thirds of the sound stage. So by the time we get up to S as you'll see, far more s is being sold as stereo pairs or eventually even six packs because the clarity, the illumination. So we need to know the scale of the system starting with the speakers. Of course, it has to be supported by the electronics. It's a system after all.
That gets us into S versus TX or ref versus S and that there's that step up, right? Some of these reference speakers, right? - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
John, you're a great communicator and I thank you for this vídeo 😊
Years ago I added a pair of sealed subs, driven speaker level into my two channel system in a dedicated music room that’s been carefully treated. I like narrow baffle main speakers that extend down to about 50hz and roll off gently below that. Blending in subs is a delicate, intensive endeavor. But once it’s done properly, it can be extremely rewarding sonically. Don’t think I’ll ever be without sealed subs in my system. They just add so much to the presentation. ☮️
Well...John just saved me a few hundred bucks. I love my isoacoustics gear for my speakers and was just about to get some for my four REL 1003mkII's. Paul McGowan seems to agree that you shouldnt decouple, so those two brains are more than good enough for me.
Boys and girls . . . this IS the best Subwoofer advice that you can get . . . I went with the REL recommended (for my speakers) one S/510 over two T9/X's and do NOT regret it for a nanosecond :-)
A second S/510 or dual No.31's is always an option for the future but it's important not to underestimate the importance of a suitable match.
Can never go wrong with buying the better sub.
Cymbal track? Thanks!
Great video! Can you please share the name of the Cymbal track?
Thank you John. I understand the importance of setting up the speakers first. There is a lot to experiment, and that is what I do. Lately I discovered that my speakers give a better mid-range perspective, and better bass when they are 50 cm (less than 2 feet) away from the front wall ; which contradicts every piece of advice about how far should the speakers be from the wall... Apparently, every model of speakers has their own preferences... As a consequence, Is there still a set of principles that should be applied when dialling in the main speakers ? If so, what are they ? I am quite confused...
I really didn’t get what all he was saying until I added a second T5X to my Sonus Faber Sonetto 3’s. I was shocked. SHOCKED!!!!!! at the amount of difference it made in the sound stage.
Don't forget to add.. having an individual sub (high-level) for each individual stereo speaker gives one the opportunity of rather having to connect to amp binding posts, one is able to go straight to speakers binding posts. I also found by going dual, the integration not just smoother/easier but also more enjoyable too.
Stringed instruments seem to hang a touch longer with the Sonetto's 😊
@@totalplonker824, yep! Hooked up to the speakers
Wish you make example room setup with furniture.
Hi, I've just bought a REL t zero mk iii which i love ! Please could you tell me what the frequency setting of the crossover is when it's off, what it is at the maximum, and how many hz each click of the dial alters it by, thanks!
Thank you for reaching out. When the Crossover dial on the Tzero MKIII is set to the minimum position the crossover filter will begin rolling-off signal at 30Hz, and when the dial is set to the maximum position it will begin rolling-off signal at 120Hz. That being said, the crossover dial on our subwoofers is not linear, which means that each click on the dial does not represent an equivalent change in crossover frequency setting. In addition, at this time we are unable to share a complete mapping of what frequency each click on the dial represents.
To get the best possible results, we recommend adjusting the Crossover for your subwoofer by-ear, rather than aiming for a specific numeric frequency value.
If you have any additional questions about tuning your REL subwoofer then feel free to write in to contactus@rel.net and our team will be happy to assist.
Hi John, love your videos! Your so knoledgeable, i looked on your site but you dont mention my speakers.
I have a pair of Wilson Watt Puppy 3/2 that go down pretty low, my room is on the smaller side 12'x19' with some room treatments. Would you suggest a pair of T9X or a S510 single (budget) ?Thank you for your input.
Thank you for reaching out. When you have a chance, please write in to contactus@rel.net and our team will be happy to provide a subwoofer pairing recommendation specific to your system.
Hi John, first thanks a lot for your presentation. Taking seriously your point that sub must be in synergy with the speakers, maybe it makes sense to formalize somehow the criteria for choosing sub to be added to a pair of specific speakers (I personally interested in music not in home cinema)? For example I have pair of Chario Delphinus (the Italian brand) and purchased REL T/9X sub. What can you say on this? Thanks. I visited your Speaker Pairings site, but did not find my speakers, but lynx one.
Thank you for reaching out. The ideal choice of subwoofer for your system will depend on other variables, though broadly speaking the T/9x is a good choice for pairing with your Chario Delphinus speakers.
My next purchase in hifi will be a Rel T/9x or S510…and then probably another one
John I really love your videos.
I have only one remark: Would it be possible to lower the volume of the background music so it doesn't interfere with what you're saying? And again, thanks for making great products. 🤟
Not sure you finished your point about those who choose to go +1 or more above the recommendation, does one have to dial down in tuning or is the system impaired in any way by the mismatch?
Thank you for reaching out. In some cases it is possible to go up a level of subwoofer from what we recommend, though in other cases doing so will result in too large of a sub for the room. It really depends on the specific room and system. If you have any questions about subwoofer pairing for your system, feel free to write in to contactus@rel.net at your earliest convenience and our team will be happy to assist.
I was going to purchase a pair of Carbon Specials for my Focal Sopra No.2’s, but on checking your website at the speaker pairings tool, I’m recommended a pair of S/812’s. Would the Carbon Specials be too good for the No.2’s?
Thank you for reaching out. In most cases, if the S/812 was the suggested pairing for your speakers then the Carbon Special can also be an excellent choice, and will provide an improvement in performance over the S/812.
Yes, I had a similar question. Apparently, moving up from the recommendation is OK, just not down.
Hi John: I’m struggling between REL S812 and No 31 for my system of Focal Sopra 2 driven by D’Agostino Progression. Learning from your presentation S812 would be a right way to go to improve my system. Anyway is it wrong if I opt for No31? appreciate your advice. Tuan Tran from Vietnam
Thank you for reaching out, and for your interest in REL Acoustics subwoofers. When you have a chance, please write in to contactus@rel.net and our team will be happy to assist with subwoofer pairing advice for your system.
No.31 for sure
Hello John, I have a pair Marten Miles 5 which sub or subs should I pair up with them? Thanks Mark
Thank you for reaching out. When you have a chance, please write in to contactus@rel.net and our team will be happy to provide a subwoofer pairing recommendation specific to your system.
REL can you please advise the best way to clean your black lacquer finish on your subs. I don’t recall seeing an official note or maybe I missed it. Help !!
Thank you for reaching out. We generally recommend automotive cleaning products for cleaning the gloss lacquer finish on our subwoofers. For a light cleaning/dusting any good quality spray detailer will work well, applied using a soft microfiber cloth, and we have specifically had good experience with Griot's Garage Speed Shine spray. For a more thorough cleaning, a good quality polishing compound such as Megiar's Ultimate polish will work well.
Hi. I have a pair of acoustic energy ae509, my room size is medium, i watch films and listen to music, i have a rel t7x but not sure if thats the correct one, what sub should i buy?
Get a pair of REL 9’s or save $ and buy a second “7” to go with your other. A pair of subs is a dramatic change from having and playing one. But you knew that from owning your other pair of subs…
What do you mean I knew that from owning my other pair of subs. I haven't got a pair of subs. I have x1 sub that I bought from a shop because they sold it to me and they said it would be ok. Now I've watched this video I'm curious if I've bought the correct sub
@@Lee-yt1de WHAT ARE YOUR ROOM DIMENSIONS?
Thank you for reaching out. When you have a chance, please write in to contactus@rel.net and our team will be happy to provide a subwoofer pairing recommendation specific to your system.
Sir, I have a t9x and my dials won't stay where I set them. How do I stop dials from moving from the bass? Besides using tape.
Thank you for reaching out. This would be the first time that I have heard of the Crossover or Level dials on a T/9x moving on their own, though when you have a chance please write in to contactus@rel.net and our team will be happy to assist with troubleshooting this issue and providing resolution options as needed.
A question for Rel or anyone.
Small room. 12ft×14ft. Bookshelf speakers on stands. Kef r3 meta. 2 rel subs. T5i.
Problem or not a problem.
Ive got that system at optimal positions after many hours of moving speakers and subs.
What i dont get is the phase switch. Unless its me im not getting the difference. Ive tried many times flicking between the 2 and hear no difference. Loudest, not loudest etc etc.
Reason for asking is i dont want to miss out on any of the benefits. If there is one.
Many thanks.
Thank you for reaching out. When you have a chance, please write in to contactus@rel.net and our team will be happy to discuss setup and tuning of these T/5i subwoofers in your home audio system.
John Hunter never fails to impress. In fact, any music enthusiast is likely to be enthralled. The David Attenborough of subwoofers.
Hi John, thanks for your video
my main speaker is Wilson Alexx
my sub is JL Fathom f113 (which REL sub out perform f113 model)
I play both movie and music (60%movie and 40%music)
many websites say that one sub is good, 2 sub is better, and 4 sub (put in 4 corner) is the best
but my rear wall can put only REL s510 size only
which one you recommended
s510 x 4
s810 x 2 and s510 x 2
carbon special x 2 and s510 x 2
carbon special x 2
Fathom f113 x 2 (just buy one more)
thank
my room size is 4m x 6.5m
Thank you for reaching out. When you have a chance, please write in to contactus@rel.net with this information about your room and system and our team will be happy to provide a subwoofer pairing recommendation specific to your system.
thank
@@RELAcoustics
Warning....don't listen to this guy unless you can afford a REL subwoofer otherwise you will be in debt !
The most critical feature in a home powered subwoofer. Is that it must have high level speaker inputs. It's not very common for stereo amplifiers to have built in sub pre outputs. Most manufacturers have done away with high level inputs on their subs. Making it difficult to connect one to a 2ch stereo system. Even REL doesn't have this feature on all their subs. So unless you spend a crazy amount you won't get this feature.
Do high level speaker inputs really sound way better than alternative hook up connections?
"must have high level speaker inputs," I don't believe this.
@@Bob-Fields No it's not a must, but it makes it more versatile to connect to more systems. The majority of systems can benefit from a property blended pair of subs.
Unfortunately John, 702S3 are now $7k/pair.
ive never heard so much shit in my life low frequency is non directional and these salesmen tell us we need 2 subs not one.
So are you implying that if you only hear the sub by its self you cant tell where that sub is at all in the room? placement will affect how it acts/sounds in different rooms as do speakers. Symmetry as with speaker placement is logical and integration between them and your sub. Also having a couple paired well and not over exerting themselves rather than just one large one musically makes sense. Try it you got nothing to lose.
You think TWO is bonkers ! Try SIX LOL . . . but in all seriousness, I've HAVE heard what REL calls a six pack - three, mounted on top of each other for each channel . THEN the spokesman in the room took the six RELS out of the equation and the sound field literally collapsed. Not that it sounded BAD or anything but the sound stage etc just lost almost all of its mojo. Subs, REL subs, anyway are WAY more than just about bass - they affect the mids and highs too, creating a bit more of a spatial effect across the sound spectrum. I don't work for REL by ANY means (I live in Canada and REL is British based :-) but I DO have an S/510 and it makes a HUGE difference to the overall sound. Two or more will even out the bass nodes in the room and help pressurize it to a higher degree. As far as I know, REL;s can be heard on a trial basis depending on where you live, I suppose. A dealer near you might show you what a REL or two might do for your system. You are right in the sense that deep bass is "nondirectional" but if a REL sub IS properly set up it should NOT be heard . . . in any direct sense, that is.