Ancient Gold Plates From Saudi Arabia? w/ Dan McClellan
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.พ. 2025
- Dan McClellan of @dataoverdogma podcast joins Evangelical Steven Pynakker to discuss the Gold Plates found in Saudi Arabia. Last week the Evangelical/Messianic program @aroodawakening described and discussed some bound Gold Plates that are claimed to be 2,000 years old. Latter Day Saint TH-camrs @thestickofjoseph , @WARDRADIO , and @davidmalvinalexander ran with the story as a possible evidence of the historicity of Gold Plates of the Book of Mormon. Dan shares his research on some previous plates that were shown to be forgeries and that apparently these plates may have come from the same source.
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I like it when Dan talks about the goal of scholarship and how scholars think when looking at evidence. His standard videos are so short that he doesn't often get into that like he did here. Great interview.
This whole story seems dangerously close to April Fools' Day.
Or really close to Holy Week😳
I love Dan's approach to theology! Give us the data and let us decide what we want to do with it. No pressure to believe or think a certain way like almost all of the religious affiliated podcasts and youtube channels. Thanks Dan and thanks to Steve for having him on!!
Yet all his data is against teaching of the LDS church he sort of claims to be a part of still….
@@todjohnman7347 You just proved my point! Dan gives the data as he sees it along with what he believes the scholarly consensus is and then you get to decide what to do with that. If you decide it contradicts your understanding and beliefs then you choose how to reconcile it. There are plenty of members of the LDS church who would disagree with you and say it strengthens their faith because it makes them think for themselves and develope their own understanding not just rely on a church leader who is doing the exact same thing. I know LDS people are not the only religious group that struggle with Dan challenging their dogma. I feel he can be polarizing but I don't believe he is trying to tear down anyones faith. I actually feel he is helping people become stronger in their beliefs whatever they may be.
I also think it's completely up to him to choose how he participates in his church as I would say about anyone else. For me I like him because I feel he's not trying to sway anyone but just offer his understanding based on his many years of study. I do understand the concepts of tribalism and how it feels safer and more secure to have our groups that we can be a part of. I think that is also important for a society or church. I just don't want it to turn into othering or us vs them thinking. To me that's where all the contention comes from and I see it in everything from sports to politics to religion and everything inbetween. Honestly I'm probably just naive and there is no way to live in a peaceful society where people can have differing opinions and beliefs but it's my hope that it can happen.
@@samtaylor5931 its predictable.. within minutes DAN- IThey are fake… its like those obsessed with Race, everything is racist. Dan is an atheist who is afraid to admit it. He says “I never said I was an athiest” but never does anthing to provide what he actually believes. His TIK TOK fame with UN educated teens does not impress me. His biased approach does not impress me, his god complex does not impress me… He does impress himself though.
I like his method too but I would not call it theology.
I respect everyone’s right to form their own opinion, regardless of who they are. That said, I trust scholars about as much as I trust the government.
No one has of yet done any hands-on testing and examination and yet everyone is either declaring ithem a forgery or real from a photograph. Don't forget it was the scholars and experts who stood by the Hoffman forgeries to the bitter end. I say wait and see if the person in possession of the relics is unwilling to have them tested and examined which would be a good indication of shenanigans going on, but to declare them either real or forgery is really premature at this point.
Yeah but this is the internet. Theres no room for nuance
Exactly what I was thinking. People claiming they know something from looking at pictures
@@shirley5762???? The photographs of the plates provide sufficient information to doubt their authenticity. For example, one of the pages depicts the head of a bearded man in profile. This image's style and iconography is Hellenistic/Roman and could not have been made earlier than circa 350 B.C. So, it postdates 600 B.C. by several hundred years. Also, the form of the artifact, with rectangular pages and covers is in the form of a book. Books did not come about in the Western world until the first and second centuries A.D. Before that time they used scrolls.
The artifact's iconography and form, i.e. book rather than a scroll, indicate it could not have been made before the first or second centuries A. D. at the earliest. Furthermore, its mixture of motifs and text is anomalous and strongly suggests a forgery.
This was super helpful, thanks!
In a 1000 years if someone finds and reads any of my sporadic sloppy journal writings are are going to think they are forgeries and claim a metallurgist would never write about such things.
No, they aren’t going to think they are forgeries because your journal entries aren’t forgeries. Simple
@@trevanhatch8717 one of the reasons I thought he gave was that the professional scribes would not be writing this. What about the above average rich guy that was not a scribe and didn't do things the way everyone else did?
@@halsmith7642
Why is a random rich guy "writing" in an incoherent mixture of languages from different time periods and different places turning some letters backwards or upside down or using the incorrect (but very similar looking) letters to spell certain words? If he's illiterate and just hired someone to create this for him, why was it not melted down and fashioned into what he actually wanted after he inevitably showed it off and someone who could read told him he'd been had?
Those young Stick of Joseph kids that talked about this are soooo enthusiastic. That’s part of their draw which I appreciate. I actually subscribe to their channel too. But I’m a born skeptic and spent 40 years in the scientific field. This whole thing smelled funny from the beginning.
Mark Hoffman?
Exactly!@@krismurphy7711
In my excitement to share this spectacular find, I ran with it…but boy was I fooled!! I’ll be more skeptical in the future and wait until experts verify. I sure learned my lesson.🤨
Always wait on Steve and his excellent contacts before stepping in it! 👍👍
Yea all the Lds channels was saying how real it is etc how it’s been discovered. Much like the BoM no one can actually see or touch it. Fake news 📰 alert.
nearly every time the media brings something out with any scientific or religious bent it's always sensationalised and tarted up like lipstick put on a pig. example, would be nebraska man's tooth, a real scientist looks at it and says it's not human, a real scientist gets a look at the turin shroud previously mentioned in the video, recognizes it's a painting... it was everywhere in the media, looking nothing like a burial shroud would.
ALWAYS be skeptical FIRST, check into claims and find out for yourself has become my creed, because I too have been fooled in the past.
Forgery is to make a copy of something that was real. A signature, a document, a work of art. So if it is a forgery what real source is being copied? Because if its not coping something then it can't really be called.a forgery by definition.
No. A forgery is something created to mislead. In this case, the gold book was made to fool people into believing it was ancient rather than modern.
Forgeries are any items created in imitation of real items with the intent to defraud or deceive. As an example of the word "forgery" being used as it is being used in this video, you can look up the infamous "salamander letter" forged by Mark Hofmann.
Would love if these podcast episodes were available on my regular podcast feeds.
Excited for this episode. Love your content.
Why does Dan use the word “forgery”? Doesn’t forgery mean a copy of something that is real or valuable?
That isn’t what he is describing as what he believes these plates “most likely” are.
Forgery encompasses any item created in imitation of another item specifically to defraud or deceive others -- it can be used specifically to recreate a real thing (the use you're more familiar with) or to create something that appears to be a real thing. For another example of the way Dan is using the word, look up the "salamander letter", an infamous forgery by Mark Hofmann.
The best authenticity is being visited by an angel and being told where to go but it’s all super fun. I hope they are real and I love the excitement of The Stick of Joseph.
Spoiler alert : they’re fake. Just like the clearly fake BoM. Hey it is what it is. Besides worshiping a book that condones genocide - shame on you.
Quite often, found artifacts at controlled digs are purchased immediately and go into private hands and never see the light of day or governments maintain control. It just makes me wonder.
All good approaches. Thankyou Mr. McClellan! Further isotope studies on the gold and lead from the plates would lend credence to the reality of where these plates came from! Thanks for your expertise on these things! Interestingly enough, the presenters of these plates were effusive about the authenticity of these plates, and were apparently from some evangelical influence!
Gold plates just like Joseph described, were found in the 1950s, digging a canal in Bulgaria. Its in the Sophia Museum. We know this kind of thing exists
So? Have they been found in the Americas? No, they have not.
The plates from the Book of Mormon were inscriptions, that is by etching the characters into gold or brass. The inscriptions on these gold plates appear to be raised, not etched. Or are they etched?
Raised on the backside.
I have a question for Dan and I ask this respectfully im not trolling Im genuinely interested ... you talked about how it doesnt fit with the generally accepted way scribes kept record of their faith to write them on golden plates other than it being a showpiece from a very rich person ... so why then do you believe in the joseph smith story of Lehi and the golden plates ... im kinda confused by that cheers .
David Bokovoy may be a good read for you?
In Lehi's case the brass plates were the original copy of the Josephite pentateuch. In other words josephite tribe had the original kept on metal, so that there would always be an original against which to check the later copies against. This would be a great reason for even a single metal edition. Gold plates were specifically made by Mormon to preserve the history for over a millennia. So in that sense there is a good reason to accept the Mormons plates.
@@personofinterest8731 I have a lot of respect for David ... but you do know he doesnt believe the book of Moses or the Book of Abraham were literal translations from documents right ... in fact Im not sure where his journey has taken him now but im pretty sure he no longer affiliates himself to your church
Very simple. Dan doesn't believe any of that.
@@jaredite8388the BOM is demonstrably not an ancient record.
No Lehi, Nephi, Moroni. No plates
As I look back in time I vividly recall being very excited about the Smithsonian handing over the papyrii to the mormon church. It was finally going to be real tangible "PROOF". The story went dark thereafter... Except for the FACT that it was real funerary text and not what Jo Smith claimed it to be.
Great interview!!
Still the fact remains that the 2 guys on shabbat night live was believing a story similar to Lehi & his family in the Book of Mormon
Even the host was excited & shoked i mean its not a far strecth to say that LDS members were seeing this in amazement that the bible landscape of Christianity would be willing to accept another sacred book of scripture
We are living in the last days many more books will be revealed before Christ returns
God did speak to other people other nations
Any raised bumps on the front had to be done from the back and that would be hard to do and make them a perfect circle from just one thing I see. How does it prove the book of Mormon ???
The two men from the Institute that went on the expedition are in the process of authenticating, dating, documenting, translating, and working with the Saudi government to make it all official and legal, as they stated in the Shabbat Night Live podcast. They said it takes time as there are 15 lead books too. They are asking for no funding. 15 scholars experienced in these various areas are all volunteering their time. The Institute is offering a university class on the plates-perhaps professional archeologists and more “preferred” scholars could audit it to satisfy their craving for traditional peer review? People like Professor Anton or the early Dead Sea Scroll critics? Caution is always wise. Cynicism cloaked in pseudo positivity isn’t very helpful, nor wanted. Time will tell if this is an authentic ancient record. If it is, those who don’t want to believe, won’t. Nothing will convince them. Those who do will celebrate the further light and knowledge. Hmm…exactly like another ancient record of gold from 200 years ago. History repeating itself once again.
Good discussion gentlemen! Thank you.
Just curious. What is Dan McClellan’s background? Is he an archaeologist?
Here is a quote from his "About me" page. "I received my bachelor’s degree from Brigham Young University in ancient Near Eastern studies, where I focused on Biblical Hebrew and minored in Classical Greek. I completed a master of studies in Jewish studies at the University of Oxford in July of 2010 and a master of arts in biblical studies in 2013 at Trinity Western University just outside of Vancouver, BC. In early 2020, I defended my doctoral dissertation written for the University of Exeter on the cognitive science of religion and the conceptualization of deity and divine agency in the Hebrew Bible...my areas of specialization are Second Temple Judaism, early Israelite religion, textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible, early christology, the cognitive science of religion, cognitive linguistics, and religious identity." He did also work for the LDS church for about 10 years as a translation supervisor alongside his academic work. Hopefully that answers your question!
@@KWade-bt4dc so in other words no 😆
If archaeology is your thing read The Bible Unearthed by Israeli archaeologist Israel Finkelstein where he he argues that there was no Exodus or conquest. 2 million people wandering the desert would have left some evidence. Nothing.
@@millennialfalkon analyzing an artifact isn’t necessarily the specialty of an archaeologist. Archaeologists are trained in digging items out of the ground and documenting them. This artifact is already out of the ground, so anyone with various kinds of training can analyze it.
@@trevanhatch8717Not precisely. Archaeologists do much more than simply excavating. They test artifacts using techniques like xray fluorescence, radiocarbon dating, and spectrum analysis. Anyone can interpret an artifact, but only experts can analyze them. And by the way, I worked as an archaelogist for 14 years.
Tests on the plates will indicate age etc. Be interesting to find out.
how does one age test gold? it doesn't decay to lead like some other things do, could swab the surface for carbon, but it's hard to tell how many grubby fingers have been on em by now.
They didn't appear to be something they supported just seeing pics of the pages but I was like let's get some archeology forensics to determine age etc. we've already had Mark Hoffman, we.know better but some just dive in
Great discussion!
Awesome analysis, Dan.
Dan always gives great insight. But does he remind anyone else of Woody Harrleson?
That is a connection I do not see at all!
Yes, could be twins.
At about 38 minutes he says metal plates are basically all fake and gives a reason that it doesn’t make sense because they aren’t efficient and you can’t easily write on them to mass produce and read from. That’s a pretty worthless argument. It makes sense that they would have a master copy on metal for the purpose of preservation for future generations and then make copies on scrolls for quick reproduction and sharing of the texts. Not saying he doesn’t have other points I just felt this point was weak.
Surely this long drawn 60 minute video could be a 60 second clip verifying carbon dating?
If the undisclosed sellers would allow that. Instead, they are trying to sell. Makes you think.
I imagine this may take years to verify.
Carbon dating is only applicable to organic material. Gold is not organic.
The debate begins. 😮
Too bad it's likely a fake. As a believing Latter Day Saint when I first saw Stick of Joseph content on this video, I was initially skeptical. I hope they find something like this for real one day.
Watch their latest follow up. Worth it .
I had the same thoughts. I didn't like how quick Stick of Joseph jumped on this.
Stick of jospeh boys are like excited golden retrievers that jump on anything exciting 😂
@@s.a.6082 And God bless them for it. I love their enthusiasm. They don't claim to be prophets, just seekers.
They are just hoping the LDS church will buy them. I'm sure they know the church has sucked into forgeries before.
No, the sellers have never approached the church. They are apparently selling to a group of Evangelical Christians, and everything has to be coordinated by the Saudi government to get them out of the country. So they’ll be thoroughly looked over to make sure they’re legit before any money changes hands.
But why did they introduce them to evangelicals?
@@Robert-rw5lmpossibly because it would be too obvious if it was exposed first to LDS church leaders. Another possibility is these men might be more gullible so you introduce them first to them. There are various reasons it wouldn't be introduced to the LDS church first
@@jeremims9044
Agreed. The church has been burned before and so they're going to be understandably skeptical of something like this. Plus, evangelicals have money that can be conned out of them as well, and possibly more easily as they are so fragmented. Evangelicals have famously been taken to the cleaners by fraudsters selling fake antiquities (e.g., the Greens, owners of Hobby Lobby and founders of the Museum of the Bible), but that doesn't mean that each evangelical group would necessarily be as sensitive to possibly being conned as those who have been burned before. A group of Messianic Jews with evangelical connections would be equally interested in ancient Jewish plates as the church -- this could be either a very clever marketing scheme by forgers to try to make their plates seem more real by not approaching the church directly or they could be targeting multiple potential buyers, starting with the most naïeve first.
It was great hearing again from the two podcasters, whom I trust.
I want to know if the gold plate book found in Panama or South America is real. The other writings attributes to Jeremiah and has Eygptian, Hebrew, and Phoenician writing ✍️ which would be awesome if it's real. The gold templet book is exactly like the description 👌 of John Smith legends.
Is Dan a renown authenticator of ancient artifacts?
He's pretty involved in Biblical studies and history, as well as language studies.
Of linguistic artifacts.
@@jmut714 I will take that as a "No".
@@wadeenglund5095 He can read the plates and recognizes it as gibberish. Do you not trust him?
@@jmut714 I am keeping an open mind.
I do have ancient gold tablet 24 carat gold was the same languages symbols if you buy it or you could appraise the piece I appreciate it
Wow you have Dan on? Fantastic
My first impression was that these plates are fake. And why would they be so small? As Dan says that this was done more plausibility as a way to make money.
Martin Harris said he saw the plates with his "spiritual eyes" Having gold plates for the Book of Mormon suggest the Nephites were in an advanced stage of metallurgy. Archaeologist Ray Matheny saw the issue of metallurgy a problem for the Book of Mormon.
Nevertheless, when Ray Matheny was retiring or retired someone from his family got in touch with my parents to *_thank my dad_* for finding them and teaching them The Restored Gospel. They had testimonies and were grateful for them!
My dad was a Stake Missionary in Las Vegas sometime during the late 1940's to early 1950's. He remembered Ray's enthusiasm for his new found faith and how it inspired him to go to BYU and earn his diploma.
The "spiritual eyes" thing is greatly misused and totally inconsistent with Martin's explanations, as when he would say he saw them as clearly as his hand or other objects in the room in which he was speaking. The spiritual eyes dismissal also does not explain the 8 witnesses testimony of physically handling the plates and turning the leaves.
What exactly do you mean by an "advanced stage of metallurgy?" Humans have been making gold jewelry since 4000 BC at least. A simple mud brick forge with a bellows, or other draft inducer, burning charcoal can get up to 2,300 °F. The melting point of gold is only 1,948°F, so it really isn't that difficult. Beyond that, you rarely need, or want, to fully melt it and instead only need it to be about 1250°F for it to be soft enough to work. In other words, all you would need to make a gold plate is a mud brick forge (Takes about a day to make), some charcoal, bellows (Which could just be a fan if you are desperate), a hammer, a flat rock, and gold. That's it, so what exactly are you saying is advanced about that?
@@rconger24 I heard from a source that if he liked his job at BYU he had better shut up. Read his wife's paper Deanne Matheny Does the Shoe Fit in New Approaches to the Book of Mormon.
@@lemjwp1756 Harris said he saw the plates with the eye of faith.
“Amateurs” ~Mark Hoffman
I love Dan man, he’s a highly educated and honest man.
One thing I've noticed with humans (myself included) is the propensity to automatically accept any "evidence" that aligns with our beliefs. This should serve as yet another reminder to all of us to look into any claims (whether they agree or disagree with our beliefs) ESPECIALLY if we plan to air a video for all the world to see. We just need to slow down! There's my two cents :)
There are pot shirts everywhere in Israel? Similar to Dan’s comic shirts? Maybe I’m mishearing that phrase.
Potsherd
@@SablespartanThere are also potheads everywhere. 🍃
Definitely a fake. As soon as Dan went over the text being gibberish it was a dead giveaway.
th-cam.com/video/DlzwDcsWw04/w-d-xo.html The 20:20 mark discusses the idea of "gibberish."
Dan isn’t someone that any LDS member should trust. He is not a true believer…
You are what’s wrong with conservative religious people. Dan is an insider. Take him at his word when he says he’s a Latter Day Saint. And even if he wasn’t, he is qualified to speak on this issue.
What an astounding confirmation of ignorance.
So only believe true believers that are incredibly biased and WANT it to be true? You see the problem with that? You don’t start with wanting to know the truth, even if it proves your beliefs false. You start with “this is the truth, and I won’t believe any evidence countering it” you don’t really care about the truth. You care about preserving your firmly held beliefs.
We don't need prisms of any kind. Take off the prisms and use your eyes.
Did you ever read up about the word "Jew"? It didn't exist prior to about 1000 AD and was derived from the French "Giu". Hebrews never called themselves Jews, it was "Yahudi", and yet the BoM uses the word Jew 92 times, how did that happen? Also, the phrase ""save it be" appears 47 times and also the word "except" 125 times. Why use "save it be" if it means the same thing as "except" and you've used it 125 times? Hebrews have never used the term "save it be" but they did use the word "except". How did save it be get in there?
Why is this even posted on this podcast? It doesn't really address anything spoken about
And you are definitely making assumptions/inferences about translation processes
Wrong video dude
Wrong video, and a weird bone to pick. Read about various translation processes.
@@Misa_Susaki I'm just posting it on any BoM related videos I find. I didn't say I have a gripe with this video, just being informative.
@@millennialfalkon Why, is this not a Book of Mormon related video?
Good job kudos to both of you.
Why don’t you research mental library found in a cave in South America
Amazing to assume the picture on the plate copied a coin. The.coin could have copied rhe.plates.
No. Profile views of Hellenistic and Roman era rulers confined to the head are almost exclusively relagated to coinage and cameos. So, coinage was used as a template for the image.
💛
I don’t trust Dan…. I will use other means than this guy to verify truth.
MARK HOFFMAN ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jake Hilton alert.
@@rconger24Russell M Nelson alert issued by Paul H Dunn😂
Well, it will be interesting to find out more about these plates with time. I hope they are real!
Dan is a doubter. He always has been. We barely found out about this this week and he’s already doubting. That’s not the right way. Christ said through Paul to “believe all things”. And we should first believe then work over the critical thinking as information comes in, not doubt from the start. People who doubt from the start instead of have faith are like doubting Thomas. You cannot receive a witness when you first doubt.
Let's say a set of plates are found that claim things completely contrary to what the book of Mormon and Bible say. Do you automatically "believe all things" and take them as true?
Watch scripture central video abt these.
Dan is trained to think this way.
So you are saying that one has to submit to foolish claims first? What ever happened to the Light of Christ? How about the gift of discernment? When you abide by your opinion, you purchase fake documents from Mark Hofmann.
@@jmut714 i’m not saying believe them. I’m saying believe in the possibility. Too many doubt things could even be possibly true and they discount them before even considering them.
So to, so called scholars automatically reject anything that might upsit their paradigm.
Calling this a fraud is against Dan's religious paradigm as he explained at the beginning. Having faith while rejecting evidence is the domain of the religious zealot.
So-called scholar? Dan's credentials are impeccable. He just tells the truth. The only ones upset about a paradigm being upset are the people who believe this kind of stuff without evidence or rationality.
2nd Nephi 27: 16
And you immediately rejected his opinion that they're frauds, because that upsets your paradigm. Pot, meet kettle.
Like TBMs automatically discredit anyone who isn’t in lock step with them because it disrupts their paradigm 😂 hypocrite.
XOME OF THE JORDAN PLATES HAVE BEEN CARBON-DATED AS AUTHENTIC TIME-WISE.
HVE THESE ARTIFACTS BEEN CARBON-DATED?
gold is not an organic material, so it can't be carbon-dated.
.
🇨🇭🇨🇭🇨🇭🇨🇭
They are not identical if you look closely. so they are not the same die. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byblos_syllabary or this one 4th century bc en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenpass