I agree completely, wheels are very good things, this is especially true as my landing has aged (legs). Your integrated wheel/bar grip/cooler is pure genius, perfect for beguinners and aging pilots.
You're right Jim. This is revolutionary. I have never been interested in Hang Gliding due to having to fly lying face down with your neck tilted back...but this!!!! I could get in to this.
you soon smart , You're right Jim. This is revolutionary. I have never been interested in Hang Gliding due to having to fly lying face down with your neck tilted back...but this!!!! I could get in to this.
I AM SOLD! Ive coming from a skydive background to a sport (Hang Gliding!) that is 100 times more fun. I watched vid after vid not understanding the resistance to the Suprone flight position. You have cleared up so many questions. You may be a genius, yes?
Dude you are on it. I am a PG pilot that,s trying to get biwingal. Learning and staying proficient at the flair landing is keeping from completing my training. I plan on going to back to my training just because of your and Wills Wings new designs.
Hey Jim! As a former HG flier in the 90's, I love your suprone approach. Head first always concerned me, especially after witnessing a variety of accidents, two fatal only because head and neck led. I think you're right, the HG manufacturers have done amazingly well maxing out what can be gotten from this airframe approach, but the A-Frame/pilot orientation is still essentially the same as the homebuilts from the 70's. Why? I think safety might be secondary to performance. Head first prone provides (HG wise) a really clean gliding platform with airfoil style down and base tubes, combined with a slick harness. That combination wins competitions. But maybe HG is changing with more emphasis on slower more forgiving wings, even experiments like WW Easy Flier trike. With HG not growing and an aging pilot roster, maybe your innovations are very well timed.
You bring up some good points fly 13. Lets re-examine the "cleanliness" of prone. "prone" is only clean if the pilot is flying head down and feet up.....perfectly aligned with the airflow. 9 out of 10 prone pilots are flying dirty. Flying level is flying dirty. Flying slightly head up is flying extremely dirty.....I am going to tape "tufts" of yarn all along the new Suprone Specific harness I brought back with me from high Energy Sports to know for sure but from what I am seeing so far, "suprone" is going to be far cleaner that "prone" if the prone pilot is flying level or slightly head up. And the new harness is so comfy....OMG....I could hang this thing in a tree and sleep in it....seriously comfy......I am hoping for some time off soon to move this project forward. hard to move anything forward working full time
Totally right. I forgot to mention pilot orientation. Look at the top competition set ups, head lower than the feet. But to most (maybe all) of us, it just feels better and more natural to have the head higher than the feet. Your suprone approach does just that, positioning the feet first harness in alignment with the relative airflow. Genius. Induced drag from the wing aside, what's left is drag on the structure. Even with the added structure of your approach, wouldn't it be interesting to measure the total drag of structure + pilot for both approaches, varying the various pilot attitudes while head first prone? BTW, glad to hear you're working with High Energy Sports regarding your harness/chute. Betty and her team were absolutely great to work with 20+ years ago.
I'm 65 years old and started hang-gliding in 1977. I had my last flight on my brand new Atos VRs 5 years ago and I guess this system would be it to return to hang-gliding. Is there any way to get the specs of that flybar to build one for myself? or even buy one if it is available?
a "go fund me" campaign is currently in progress to finance the creation of an XC style harness built specifically for the suprone position.... here is the link for those interested: www.gofundme.com/suprone-hang-gliding-harness-r-d
Jim I like your ideas. But Landing in long grass will be dangeros for you. I think weellanding will work with weels in a double sice. And it helps, when you imagine yourself that youre landing on the tof of the grass. Flairing out till your glider naerly stalls is verry importent for a savety landing on weels too. Once I did fly the "doodle bug" a british suprone motorharnes for hanggliders. And I missed one thing. But I didn´t know what I went missing. Just I know: It was your FlyBar. I wish you still good ideas and allways happy landing!
I agree, high grass and wheels are a bad combo. If I am going to "miss" the short grass I plan to rock up, drop my feet, and just drop it in by flaring from the DT's or the Flybar handles.... (which works pretty good) A doodlebug using a flybar? Now there is a great idea! How fun would that be? My only concern would be to maintain awareness of the 'thrust line'. For instance, if a doodlebug pilot shifted left but the powered harness was twisted on its vertical axis, the "thrust line" would introduce a yaw input in addition to the pilots "weight shift" and could produce something undesirable. I do not see a problem as long as a powered harness pilot maintains his or her awareness of how "Thrust line" can possibly affect control inputs.
That looks like an awesome way to fly! What sort of affect does the FlyBar have on the ability to foot land the glider? Can the FlyBar be swapped between different models and sizes of hang gliders? Is it necessary to replace the factory base tube?
Hey Big Bear. It is an awesome way to fly & It is Soooooo comfy. Like flying in a recliner. almost zero fatigue & I can spot clouds much more easily. Looking forward to some very long and comfortable cross country flying this spring. Anyway, FlyBar has zero effect on the "normal', foot landing procedure because in suprone a pilot is held just as high relative to the down tubes as in prone so flare authority is fantastic. I have done maybe 20 or 30 regular "flare" landings since I started flying this way....no problem. Now, concerning the base tube. Wait for the next video. "harness considerations & Suprone Roll Authority". Truth is we are not going to have to "modify" or "rotate" our Base tubes downwards by the time this gets put into production. We only need a harness built specifically for the Suprone Position. In the Gin Genie Race PG harness you have seen me fly with there is actually 6 inches of WASTED space under my bottom for a reserve container, padding, etc. etc. that we HG pilots do not really need to have. After all, we have the entire A-Frame and wheels (If we choose to use wheels) underneath us for protection. I am currently talking with harness manufactures concerning an HG harness made specifically for the Suprone HG position. When such a harness is constructed, we will NOT have to modify our base tubes to obtain absolute roll authority.
Landings in this video BTW are being done with much greater speed than is actually required. Roll in landings work just fine touching down just above stall speed as well. Truth is, I have landed this contraption THREE ways...1. regular "flaring" method from DT's works just fine. 2. Obviously, the "roll in Option" works if the field is suitable for that application, and....3. If I am coming in and not going to make the "short grass" I can just drop my feet out of the boot, flare using only the rear handles (works great), and drop it into the high grass like we do flaring from the down tubes....I just have not shown any of those landings as of yet. (saving this third option to showcase the kickstarter video)
I fly prone and land on wheels 80% of the time > long grass or very rough rocky or high bush makes wheel landing more Dangers . I fly with big Plastic traning wheels and the wills wing white weels that sit infrount of the base bar.
Hey Brian Phillips, I would like to get my hands on a glider that has the wills wing white wheels that sit in front of the base bar....I have been meaning to speak with Wills Wing about the possibility of redesigning that bracket (basically reversing the fork direction) and use the reversed fork direction base tube bracket as a pivoting connection point for a larger, more efficient wheel or skid set up as shown in this video, designed around the "teeter totter" fore and aft design. I would love to take the little white wheels off.... redesign the bracket so the "forks" are to the rear instead of the front....then use that "reversed" bracket as a hinging connection point with wheels fore and aft stabilized by bungee. Should work if the built in brackets are re-designed for this specific purpose....? Wills Wing Is already leading the way towards landing with adequate wheels with their Easy Flyer. If WW continues in this direction maybe a new nickname is in order, like maybe "Wheels Wing".???..(small chuckle)
After flying with SEVERAL PG style harnesses the bottom line is this... SUPRONE needs its own harness....period... WHY is the harness so critical? So many reasons....but mainly these three... 1. PG harnesses have reserve containers, padding, and airbags underneath that are robbing me of 6 inches of space....and if only 4 of those inches were removed we would NOT have to rotate our base tubes downward....it's true....We CAN fly in the Suprone position and achieve excellent roll control with a properly built harness. Here's the math: A "prone" pilot, by the time we hangs a fist off the bar plus our reserve container, is flying 7-8 inches off the bar. I have measured and re-measured this, its true, we are not really flying "just off the base tube" in prone, we are actually quite high and we have AWESOME roll authority right? Well, in Suprone I have found I only need to lower my body 4 inches to achieve the same awesome roll authority we enjoy in prone....only 4 inches....!!!!! With a suprone specific harness I will have awesome roll authority flying OVER A REGULAR BASE TUBE! NO modifications would be required to a glider rigged for the prone position to fly suprone......none. 2. There is no DHV standard for PG harnesses. The "D"-rings on each side are mounted all over the place. Some down low, some up high. There is no way I can recommend to anyone how long their "spreader bar lines would need to be for a specific PG harness they wish to use for suprone hang gliding....every PG harness is different....we need a Suprone specific harness built to a standard DHV length so we can just unclip our prone harness and clip in our suprone with zero hassle. 3. Those reserve chute containers underneath the PG harnesses were never designed to be "bumped into" objects down below like base tubes or wheels. I have practiced "bumping around" my A-Frame (sitting in my driveway) and have Successfully dislodged one of the pins that hold my reserve in place by bumping into my wheels.....can you say "accidental chute deployment"?....NOT GOOD. We need a harness that is clean as a whistle underneath....that can be bumped into anything, anytime without causing a premature parachute deployment. I am still moving foreward to put the flybar into production but not without making this effort to make a suprone specific harness available to the flying public.....I think it is very important for safety....it would also solve all the problems listed above and make the transition from prone to suprone a piece of cake without all the monkey business I am going through right now..... I am talking with Mike Berge of High Energy sports.....( Betty even came out of retirement to discuss this project....) High Energy is wiling to set aside an entire week of shop time to brainstorm and build a suprone specific harness to my specifications that will solve So many problems. It is going to cost around 6,000 grand for the R&D....but after that....ANYBODY is going to be able to call up High Energy and simply "order" a suprone specific harness!! I am making another video this week on "harness considerations" that will go into all this in more detail.....and I will prove in this video that with the proper harness we will NOT have to modify our gliders ...just clip in a Suprone harness built to DHV standard lengths and strap on a flyBar...done deal... the "flybar" kickstarter is slated to begin march first.....but BEFORE that happens I will open up a "go fund me" campaign to raise 7,000 to pay the R&D and cover my travel expenses to make this happen...a suprone specific harness. HIgh Energy wants me to come down a spend a week with Jacob, their lead harness maker and work with him during the entire invention of the suprone specific harness. I will then stay in southern CA. for one more week and test fly the harness at various sites.....looking for problems or possible improvements....which HIgh Energy could then remedy....so the final product would be available for purchase by all who wish to fly in suprone Spread the word.....If we can collectively raise the R&D costs a suprone specific harness CAN be made available to all pilots.... Thanks for the interest....]Be sure and "share" if you are hoping to fly in suprone with the Fenison FlyBar.....we NEED a suprone specific harness....we really do....thanks Working on it........Sunny Jim
Hi Jim,please where can i buy this flybar for my atos vr?i stay in Austria but my english ist bad,smile with atos and my pg harness it will be a perfect flying machine!!
hi Jim, what to you think about this finsterwalder-charly.de/finster/html_eng/gurtzeuge/hg_supineintegral.php I´m considering a narrow electric drive for this great new Thing...Lg
I wish I could see one in person. Looks like boot entry zipper is on top, or front of harness? NO problem there but how flexible is the boot? Can it be "bent" to use the feet to catch the base tube and pull in for speed? If not it would not be suitable for myself. Also, it is obviously for "supine" (under the base tube) so the main risers would have to be shortened about 12 inches for suprone (over the base tubes). Also, that long line for leg support...I have questions about that in regards to using it with the flybar.....I would just have to see it in person to know if that harness could be modified for use in suprone.
Using one's leg or legs to "pull in for speed" in suprone is really important. I am putting together a "suprone harness considerations" video this week....should answer most questions people have......but I LOVE your idea of an electric drive
Brilliant video thank 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
I agree completely, wheels are very good things, this is especially true as my landing has aged (legs). Your integrated wheel/bar grip/cooler is pure genius, perfect for beguinners and aging pilots.
You're right Jim. This is revolutionary. I have never been interested in Hang Gliding due to having to fly lying face down with your neck tilted back...but this!!!! I could get in to this.
Good improvements!
I'm very impressed with the landing gear.
I've ''wacked" so very many times.
I wish this system was available when I was flying hanggliders
you soon smart , You're right Jim. This is revolutionary. I have never been interested in Hang Gliding due to having to fly lying face down with your neck tilted back...but this!!!! I could get in to this.
I AM SOLD! Ive coming from a skydive background to a sport (Hang Gliding!) that is 100 times more fun. I watched vid after vid not understanding the resistance to the Suprone flight position. You have cleared up so many questions. You may be a genius, yes?
can aerobatics be done in suprone positon?
Dude you are on it. I am a PG pilot that,s trying to get biwingal. Learning and staying proficient at the flair landing is keeping from completing my training. I plan on going to back to my training just because of your and Wills Wings new designs.
Hey jim. Youve come a long way mano lookin good your friend in montana
Thanks Bigfoot
Hey Jim! As a former HG flier in the 90's, I love your suprone approach. Head first always concerned me, especially after witnessing a variety of accidents, two fatal only because head and neck led. I think you're right, the HG manufacturers have done amazingly well maxing out what can be gotten from this airframe approach, but the A-Frame/pilot orientation is still essentially the same as the homebuilts from the 70's. Why? I think safety might be secondary to performance. Head first prone provides (HG wise) a really clean gliding platform with airfoil style down and base tubes, combined with a slick harness. That combination wins competitions. But maybe HG is changing with more emphasis on slower more forgiving wings, even experiments like WW Easy Flier trike. With HG not growing and an aging pilot roster, maybe your innovations are very well timed.
You bring up some good points fly 13. Lets re-examine the "cleanliness" of prone. "prone" is only clean if the pilot is flying head down and feet up.....perfectly aligned with the airflow. 9 out of 10 prone pilots are flying dirty. Flying level is flying dirty. Flying slightly head up is flying extremely dirty.....I am going to tape "tufts" of yarn all along the new Suprone Specific harness I brought back with me from high Energy Sports to know for sure but from what I am seeing so far, "suprone" is going to be far cleaner that "prone" if the prone pilot is flying level or slightly head up. And the new harness is so comfy....OMG....I could hang this thing in a tree and sleep in it....seriously comfy......I am hoping for some time off soon to move this project forward. hard to move anything forward working full time
Totally right. I forgot to mention pilot orientation. Look at the top competition set ups, head lower than the feet. But to most (maybe all) of us, it just feels better and more natural to have the head higher than the feet. Your suprone approach does just that, positioning the feet first harness in alignment with the relative airflow. Genius. Induced drag from the wing aside, what's left is drag on the structure. Even with the added structure of your approach, wouldn't it be interesting to measure the total drag of structure + pilot for both approaches, varying the various pilot attitudes while head first prone? BTW, glad to hear you're working with High Energy Sports regarding your harness/chute. Betty and her team were absolutely great to work with 20+ years ago.
look at thin section bearings.
I'm 65 years old and started hang-gliding in 1977. I had my last flight on my brand new Atos VRs 5 years ago and I guess this system would be it to return to hang-gliding. Is there any way to get the specs of that flybar to build one for myself? or even buy one if it is available?
a "go fund me" campaign is currently in progress to finance the creation of an XC style harness built specifically for the suprone position.... here is the link for those interested:
www.gofundme.com/suprone-hang-gliding-harness-r-d
The "go fund me" was successful and the suprone specific harness has been created....the next videos will show a whole new level of suprone efficiency
Jim I like your ideas. But Landing in long grass will be dangeros for you. I think weellanding will work with weels in a double sice. And it helps, when you imagine yourself that youre landing on the tof of the grass. Flairing out till your glider naerly stalls is verry importent for a savety landing on weels too.
Once I did fly the "doodle bug" a british suprone motorharnes for hanggliders. And I missed one thing. But I didn´t know what I went missing. Just I know: It was your FlyBar.
I wish you still good ideas and allways happy landing!
I agree, high grass and wheels are a bad combo. If I am going to "miss" the short grass I plan to rock up, drop my feet, and just drop it in by flaring from the DT's or the Flybar handles.... (which works pretty good)
A doodlebug using a flybar? Now there is a great idea! How fun would that be?
My only concern would be to maintain awareness of the 'thrust line'. For instance, if a doodlebug pilot shifted left but the powered harness was twisted on its vertical axis, the "thrust line" would introduce a yaw input in addition to the pilots "weight shift" and could produce something undesirable. I do not see a problem as long as a powered harness pilot maintains his or her awareness of how "Thrust line" can possibly affect control inputs.
That looks like an awesome way to fly! What sort of affect does the FlyBar have on the ability to foot land the glider? Can the FlyBar be swapped between different models and sizes of hang gliders? Is it necessary to replace the factory base tube?
Hey Big Bear. It is an awesome way to fly & It is Soooooo comfy. Like flying in a recliner. almost zero fatigue & I can spot clouds much more easily. Looking forward to some very long and comfortable cross country flying this spring. Anyway, FlyBar has zero effect on the "normal', foot landing procedure because in suprone a pilot is held just as high relative to the down tubes as in prone so flare authority is fantastic. I have done maybe 20 or 30 regular "flare" landings since I started flying this way....no problem.
Now, concerning the base tube. Wait for the next video. "harness considerations & Suprone Roll Authority". Truth is we are not going to have to "modify" or "rotate" our Base tubes downwards by the time this gets put into production. We only need a harness built specifically for the Suprone Position. In the Gin Genie Race PG harness you have seen me fly with there is actually 6 inches of WASTED space under my bottom for a reserve container, padding, etc. etc. that we HG pilots do not really need to have. After all, we have the entire A-Frame and wheels (If we choose to use wheels) underneath us for protection. I am currently talking with harness manufactures concerning an HG harness made specifically for the Suprone HG position. When such a harness is constructed, we will NOT have to modify our base tubes to obtain absolute roll authority.
Landings in this video BTW are being done with much greater speed than is actually required. Roll in landings work just fine touching down just above stall speed as well. Truth is, I have landed this contraption THREE ways...1. regular "flaring" method from DT's works just fine. 2. Obviously, the "roll in Option" works if the field is suitable for that application, and....3. If I am coming in and not going to make the "short grass" I can just drop my feet out of the boot, flare using only the rear handles (works great), and drop it into the high grass like we do flaring from the down tubes....I just have not shown any of those landings as of yet. (saving this third option to showcase the kickstarter video)
I fly prone and land on wheels 80% of the time > long grass or very rough rocky or high bush makes wheel landing more
Dangers . I fly with big Plastic traning wheels and the wills wing white weels that sit infrount of the base bar.
Hey Brian Phillips, I would like to get my hands on a glider that has the wills wing white wheels that sit in front of the base bar....I have been meaning to speak with Wills Wing about the possibility of redesigning that bracket (basically reversing the fork direction) and use the reversed fork direction base tube bracket as a pivoting connection point for a larger, more efficient wheel or skid set up as shown in this video, designed around the "teeter totter" fore and aft design.
I would love to take the little white wheels off.... redesign the bracket so the "forks" are to the rear instead of the front....then use that "reversed" bracket as a hinging connection point with wheels fore and aft stabilized by bungee. Should work if the built in brackets are re-designed for this specific purpose....?
Wills Wing Is already leading the way towards landing with adequate wheels with their Easy Flyer. If WW continues in this direction maybe a new nickname is in order, like maybe "Wheels Wing".???..(small chuckle)
I think any thing behind the control bar is a hazard, but I like your testing of these Ideas .
After flying with SEVERAL PG style harnesses the bottom line is this...
SUPRONE needs its own harness....period...
WHY is the harness so critical?
So many reasons....but mainly these three...
1. PG harnesses have reserve containers, padding, and airbags underneath that are robbing me of 6 inches of space....and if only 4 of those inches were removed we would NOT have to rotate our base tubes downward....it's true....We CAN fly in the Suprone position and achieve excellent roll control with a properly built harness.
Here's the math:
A "prone" pilot, by the time we hangs a fist off the bar plus our reserve container, is flying 7-8 inches off the bar. I have measured and re-measured this, its true, we are not really flying "just off the base tube" in prone, we are actually quite high and we have AWESOME roll authority right?
Well, in Suprone I have found I only need to lower my body 4 inches to achieve the same awesome roll authority we enjoy in prone....only 4 inches....!!!!! With a suprone specific harness I will have awesome roll authority flying OVER A REGULAR BASE TUBE! NO modifications would be required to a glider rigged for the prone position to fly suprone......none.
2. There is no DHV standard for PG harnesses. The "D"-rings on each side are mounted all over the place. Some down low, some up high. There is no way I can recommend to anyone how long their "spreader bar lines would need to be for a specific PG harness they wish to use for suprone hang gliding....every PG harness is different....we need a Suprone specific harness built to a standard DHV length so we can just unclip our prone harness and clip in our suprone with zero hassle.
3. Those reserve chute containers underneath the PG harnesses were never designed to be "bumped into" objects down below like base tubes or wheels. I have practiced "bumping around" my A-Frame (sitting in my driveway) and have Successfully dislodged one of the pins that hold my reserve in place by bumping into my wheels.....can you say "accidental chute deployment"?....NOT GOOD.
We need a harness that is clean as a whistle underneath....that can be bumped into anything, anytime without causing a premature parachute deployment.
I am still moving foreward to put the flybar into production but
not without making this effort to make a suprone specific harness available to the flying public.....I think it is very important for safety....it would also solve all the problems listed above and make the transition from prone to suprone a piece of cake without all the monkey business I am going through right now.....
I am talking with Mike Berge of High Energy sports.....( Betty even came out of retirement to discuss this project....)
High Energy is wiling to set aside an entire week of shop time to brainstorm and build a suprone specific harness to my specifications that will solve So many problems.
It is going to cost around 6,000 grand for the R&D....but after that....ANYBODY is going to be able to call up High Energy and simply "order" a suprone specific harness!!
I am making another video this week on "harness considerations" that will go into all this in more detail.....and I will prove in this video that with the proper harness we will NOT have to modify our gliders ...just clip in a Suprone harness built to DHV standard lengths and strap on a flyBar...done deal...
the "flybar" kickstarter is slated to begin march first.....but BEFORE that happens I will open up a "go fund me" campaign to raise 7,000 to pay the R&D and cover my travel expenses to make this happen...a suprone specific harness.
HIgh Energy wants me to come down a spend a week with Jacob, their lead harness maker and work with him during the entire invention of the suprone specific harness. I will then stay in southern CA. for one more week and test fly the harness at various sites.....looking for problems or possible improvements....which HIgh Energy could then remedy....so the final product would be available for purchase by all who wish to fly in suprone
Spread the word.....If we can collectively raise the R&D costs a suprone specific harness CAN be made available to all pilots....
Thanks for the interest....]Be sure and "share" if you are hoping to fly in suprone with the Fenison FlyBar.....we NEED a suprone specific harness....we really do....thanks
Working on it........Sunny Jim
Hi Jim,please where can i buy this flybar for my atos vr?i stay in Austria but my english ist bad,smile
with atos and my pg harness it will be a perfect flying machine!!
sorry,my mail adress stoecklmatthias@hotmail.com
hi Jim, what to you think about this finsterwalder-charly.de/finster/html_eng/gurtzeuge/hg_supineintegral.php I´m considering a narrow electric drive for this great new Thing...Lg
I wish I could see one in person. Looks like boot entry zipper is on top, or front of harness? NO problem there but how flexible is the boot? Can it be "bent" to use the feet to catch the base tube and pull in for speed? If not it would not be suitable for myself. Also, it is obviously for "supine" (under the base tube) so the main risers would have to be shortened about 12 inches for suprone (over the base tubes). Also, that long line for leg support...I have questions about that in regards to using it with the flybar.....I would just have to see it in person to know if that harness could be modified for use in suprone.
Using one's leg or legs to "pull in for speed" in suprone is really important. I am putting together a "suprone harness considerations" video this week....should answer most questions people have......but I LOVE your idea of an electric drive