So… idk if Mike is planning on taking his doctoral dissertation and publishing a version for us non-academics (maybe through Plain and Precious Publishing?), but I would absolutely LOVE that. Mike and Bryce do a great job with Talking Scriptures, and Mike and Dave Read Books is one of my favorite series right now, but a book explaining the Israelite temple drama found in the Pslams? Yes! I want it
I was set apart as a Temple worker a few days ago, and did my first shift yesterday (14Dec24). This discussion has been incredible in the way it's helping to get my Temple vision tuned up! Thanks for getting this out where those who can, will learn more. And congratulations on the studio version.... it's great that the Paul boys let you use it while they're on deployment!
Cwic, this is some of your best content. Do more of these! If you're looking for more temple and BOM content, I'd love to chat with you sometime about King Benjamin's Sermon as a type of temple endowment.
@@AndrewIMiller - Yes. Also, compare the first few chapters of Mosiah to Nehemiah 8. It starts with reading the Law on feast of trumpets and ends with the endowment at tabernacles. Plus throw in the coronation of Mosiah.
You guys are blowing my mind!!! Wow!!! You are bringing so much to light. Revealing the entire story. You are giving us so much knowledge, and clarifying the fullness of all things relating to the King, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. It boggles the mind how we have missed connecting the dots of this sacred information that you have so kindly shared with us. Thank you 🙏❤️
As usual I’ve enjoyed “sitting at your feet” and enjoying the fruits of your academic labors. My favorite thing to do is to learn of things of eternal significance. Thank you!
He only got to page two!! 😮 Can he just come to my house and hang out for a month, I am dying for someone like minded to talk to, I am the only one at my house who likes to geek out over scripture like this…
It's the "Ancient Tradition." That's why it is found everywhere. All the creation myths found all over the world seem to stem from the same ancient roots. Love the Ancient Tradition podcast and the way Dr. Jack Logan teaches it and builds on her premise from podcast to podcast is fantastic! Thank you for this wonderful video guys.
Ever since reading "Who Shall Ascend to the Hill of the Lord" in 2020 when we had oodles of time to read, I feel like I've been putting together a 2000 piece puzzle and I've just barely got the edges finished in 4 years! Then a podcast like this gives me a few more connections and its all very exciting to see the picture coming together. My husband was a first time listener and was quite lost but he's heard me talk about this idea of temple dramas and coronations, etc, so it really takes some delving into it all before you can follow it completely. I confess i was lost a time or two (or three) too but you two really know your scriptures and I trust your scholarship and your testimonies. Thank you for all your efforts to teach us!
A big thanks, I imagine scriptorians out there, and I'm grateful for every new thing that we learn every day. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is wonderful! IMO, this is a great time to be alive, to witness the expected times long anticipated.
Back in the day before the church recommended only doing temple ordinances for one’s own ancestors, LeGrand Baker told me he did the temple work for Sigmund Mowinckel. LeGrand felt Mowinckel was waiting for the ordinances he had studied his whole adult life and performed them on his behalf as an act of love for him. BCIE all performed in the Provo temple 7/7/1998. LeGrand was a rock star.
I skimmed the 4 essays by Brendan Graham Dempsey (I honestly couldn't read it, as I think it repeated the same basic message) and it boils down to good vs evil, and following Christ's example in all things, and considering the oaths and covenants in the endowment ceremony, prepares us for complete sacrifice on behalf of Christ, and to overcome evil/death. This conflict of good vs evil is everlasting, and it is our mastery over evil that will demonstrate that we are as one of them (the God's, knowing good and evil), and to go further, shows that we can train up eternal generations of children to develop those same attributes. Eternal increase and exaltation.
@@MelonsandMaters as they stated during the discussion, the role determines the title. At the most fundamental basic level, Jehovah is the spiritual firstborn of Elohim. He is also the Father because of divine investiture of authority and because he is the king enthroned.
When did Jesus go through this? At His baptism. He had faith, He required no repentance, He was baptized by water and fire and the Holy Ghost. And then the voice of El Elyon declared Jesus His Son. And then finished the work culminating in the garden, on the cross and in the emptying of the tomb. Truly enduring to the end.
So I just heard a comment in the conversation where Mike said (at about 1:18 ish) Christ came at the rebuilt temple in 3rd Nephi. It is interesting that the Salt Lake Temple is being rebuilt and going to be rededicated soon. President Nelson has referred to the restoration and the upcoming dedication on several occasions. I wouldn’t be surprised if Christ is at the rededication.
After learning the Baal cycle story on my own, I think it makes a lot of sense to infer that the ancient Prophets who were preaching about a dying God would be put to death by zealous Yahwhists makes a lot of sense. They would have seen the parallels between the Baal cycle and the prophetic teachings regarding Jesus as the incarnate Yahweh as equivocation between the two deities, which would rub them all the wrong way. Perhaps, when some stories of the Old Testament condemns Baal worshippers, perhaps in their fervour they're also condemning Yahweh worshippers that were teaching about Jesus. Interesting ideas to entertain.
check out sept oct archaeology magazine 2021 article on the sacred rites of samothrace. it's like you say these things are all over, and ingrained in all cultures. the ancient prayer circles nibley talks about is another one, this is good stuff, and obvious to see if you know what your looking at,
I have a question. The Stone of Scone, that has been used under the coronation throne of the Kings and Queens of the British Isles, is this a "type" of the "Rock" you describe as the "rock" of the Holy of Holies? The Stone of Scone is the stone noted where Jacob laid his head when he saw the vision of the ladder rising up into Heaven. This stone was carried to Ireland by Jeremiah as he traveled there with Mulek and his sister Tamar Telphi when they left Egypt. Jeremiah took them to Egypt to safety when Zedekiah was taken to Babylon.
45:00 ish, JFM was wrong, the two sticks are one in his hand. I know people who had JFM as a mish pres in Scotland. I've heard that and other sayings many times.
WRT ancient literacy, I've seen medieval scholars say that the idea that "the Middle Ages were full of illiterate peasants" is incredibly deceptive and based on wordplay more than reality. They would use writing and reading very commonly in their day-to-day lives, because it's so fantastically useful. But they would read and write in their native tongue. Meanwhile, the language of _literature_ was Latin, which they could not read. Therefore, they were not _literate_ (educated,) but they still made very pragmatic use of writing. Is it possible that we've got similar conditions in ancient times, where the sacral/liturgical/elite language and the common tongue were two different things, and The People could read and write and comprehend the latter but not the former?
It makes me laugh when I hear someone say that Oral traditions would turn out to be the telephone game, or that humans cannot memorize the amount of materials that would be required to have Oral traditions My response is… how do you explain Shakespeare actors, they memorize Bible equivalent materials to be able to act out his plays How do you explain people today who have memorized the entire Bible and recite it as a play for audiences We still have Oral traditions in our own day…
Christ appeared at the Temple and people were already gathered there, then the people ran to go get their sick and infirmed and bring them to Jesus… people were already at the Temple because as Jews they had gathered there for Tabernacles…
Sincere questions: Why didn’t Joseph Smith construct Kirkland and Nauvoo temples with the multiple room pattern we do now? Why weren’t Joseph and Hyrum wearing temple garments? Where are the source documents for temple endowment ordinance? Why is there no mention of temple worship in Book of Mormon after Christ came to America? Why is there no mention of “exaltation” in the Book of Mormon in the context of eternal salvation? In the temple endowment we covenant to keep the Doctrine of Christ but why did we add “receive the Lords’s ordinances” which was strictly prohibited to, add to or take away from, the DoC? Why are temple ordinances excluded from the Doctrine of Christ as explained in BoM if they are required for salvation?
The endowment was originally performed by Joseph Smith up in the attic of the red brick store to a few people, maybe 20? 30? He arranged the room with dividers so as to make separate rooms. He didn't receive the full endowment ordinance until after the 2 temples mentioned were already under construction, and just like everything else in the church we believe in continuing revelation, an example of this is that baptisms for the dead and sealing didn't look anything like what we currently perform. Men were being sealed to the prophet and to the apostles because they believed you needed to be sealed to a priesthood figure or authority, as opposed to family being sealed to family creating an unbroken chain.
There is no mention of Exaltation or the temple endowment in the book of mormon. By name. It's there, 3 ether is a temple text, and follows many of the same themes as the temple endowment, when christ returns in 3 nephi, he gives the temple ceremony, in 1 nephi the tree of life vision is a temple text. I don't know if you're a member or if you know anything about the temple ceremony, but the symbolism is thick, and it's there for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. If you don't have either of those then it won't matter what evidence I give you, you won't believe it anyways.
As for your Doctrine of Christ questions, I'm confused. How does us doing temple ordinances add to or take away from the doctrine of Christ? Hell if you're going to go that route, why read any scriptures? They are adding onto the doctrine of Christ? Why listen to prophets and apostles? Why go to church where we learn things? Forgive me if I misunderstanding your question, but I don't personally see the temple ordinances as adding to the doctrine of christ. Also the only path to Salvation is being baptized and accepting Christ as your savior. The temple ordinances are for Exaltation, not salvation. The distinction is important.
To deepen our understanding and appreciation of the Temple experience. Apostasy in every dispensation includes a rejection or distortion of Temple teachings.
Talking Scripture with Mike and Bryce is AWESOME!!!
@@SpiritualGangsterOG My favorite scripture study podcast! Excited to see Mike doing this video with Greg!
Wow Greg! You’ve had some good shows, but this is my favorite. Totally awesome! Thank you.
Glad you enjoy it!
So… idk if Mike is planning on taking his doctoral dissertation and publishing a version for us non-academics (maybe through Plain and Precious Publishing?), but I would absolutely LOVE that. Mike and Bryce do a great job with Talking Scriptures, and Mike and Dave Read Books is one of my favorite series right now, but a book explaining the Israelite temple drama found in the Pslams? Yes! I want it
I was set apart as a Temple worker a few days ago, and did my first shift yesterday (14Dec24).
This discussion has been incredible in the way it's helping to get my Temple vision tuned up! Thanks for getting this out where those who can, will learn more.
And congratulations on the studio version.... it's great that the Paul boys let you use it while they're on deployment!
Cwic, this is some of your best content. Do more of these! If you're looking for more temple and BOM content, I'd love to chat with you sometime about King Benjamin's Sermon as a type of temple endowment.
@@AndrewIMiller - Yes. Also, compare the first few chapters of Mosiah to Nehemiah 8. It starts with reading the Law on feast of trumpets and ends with the endowment at tabernacles. Plus throw in the coronation of Mosiah.
You guys are blowing my mind!!! Wow!!! You are bringing so much to light. Revealing the entire story. You are giving us so much knowledge, and clarifying the fullness of all things relating to the King, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. It boggles the mind how we have missed connecting the dots of this sacred information that you have so kindly shared with us. Thank you 🙏❤️
I love Mike!!! I listen to Talking Scripture every week!!! He and Bryce have amazing insights!!!
As usual I’ve enjoyed “sitting at your feet” and enjoying the fruits of your academic labors. My favorite thing to do is to learn of things of eternal significance.
Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed this. One of my favorite topics.
This was so good. I can't wait to listen a second time and then go to the temple. Mike is a terrific guest.
He only got to page two!!
😮
Can he just come to my house and hang out for a month, I am dying for someone like minded to talk to, I am the only one at my house who likes to geek out over scripture like this…
This gets pretty deep but you both bring out the need for a focus on Jesus as our royal king of kings.
It's the "Ancient Tradition." That's why it is found everywhere. All the creation myths found all over the world seem to stem from the same ancient roots. Love the Ancient Tradition podcast and the way Dr. Jack Logan teaches it and builds on her premise from podcast to podcast is fantastic! Thank you for this wonderful video guys.
Agreed!
Ever since reading "Who Shall Ascend to the Hill of the Lord" in 2020 when we had oodles of time to read, I feel like I've been putting together a 2000 piece puzzle and I've just barely got the edges finished in 4 years! Then a podcast like this gives me a few more connections and its all very exciting to see the picture coming together. My husband was a first time listener and was quite lost but he's heard me talk about this idea of temple dramas and coronations, etc, so it really takes some delving into it all before you can follow it completely. I confess i was lost a time or two (or three) too but you two really know your scriptures and I trust your scholarship and your testimonies. Thank you for all your efforts to teach us!
A big thanks, I imagine scriptorians out there, and I'm grateful for every new thing that we learn every day. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is wonderful! IMO, this is a great time to be alive, to witness the expected times long anticipated.
All that said, I enjoyed this conversation. Thank you 🎉
Definitely two anointings. One at some preliminary time, and one at the coronation.
Back in the day before the church recommended only doing temple ordinances for one’s own ancestors, LeGrand Baker told me he did the temple work for Sigmund Mowinckel. LeGrand felt Mowinckel was waiting for the ordinances he had studied his whole adult life and performed them on his behalf as an act of love for him. BCIE all performed in the Provo temple 7/7/1998. LeGrand was a rock star.
Another fantastic video! Thanks again
You’re welcome
Dude you’re looking ripped congrats! Loved this podcast man thank you both!
I skimmed the 4 essays by Brendan Graham Dempsey (I honestly couldn't read it, as I think it repeated the same basic message) and it boils down to good vs evil, and following Christ's example in all things, and considering the oaths and covenants in the endowment ceremony, prepares us for complete sacrifice on behalf of Christ, and to overcome evil/death. This conflict of good vs evil is everlasting, and it is our mastery over evil that will demonstrate that we are as one of them (the God's, knowing good and evil), and to go further, shows that we can train up eternal generations of children to develop those same attributes. Eternal increase and exaltation.
This Is awesome , Please do more like this interview with Mike and maybe Dave also. Your approach brings new things to the front. Thanks
People in church call him their brother. I tell them He is the Father and the King and we are trying to be adopted into HIs House.
@@MelonsandMaters as they stated during the discussion, the role determines the title. At the most fundamental basic level, Jehovah is the spiritual firstborn of Elohim. He is also the Father because of divine investiture of authority and because he is the king enthroned.
When did Jesus go through this?
At His baptism. He had faith, He required no repentance, He was baptized by water and fire and the Holy Ghost. And then the voice of El Elyon declared Jesus His Son. And then finished the work culminating in the garden, on the cross and in the emptying of the tomb. Truly enduring to the end.
So I just heard a comment in the conversation where Mike said (at about 1:18 ish) Christ came at the rebuilt temple in 3rd Nephi. It is interesting that the Salt Lake Temple is being rebuilt and going to be rededicated soon. President Nelson has referred to the restoration and the upcoming dedication on several occasions. I wouldn’t be surprised if Christ is at the rededication.
Bingo.. more to the point... he turned up to them for their first time visit from him while they were renovating the temple.
The JST translation of Psalm 24:7-10 is CRUCIAL!!
More Mike & Dave please.
An absolutely fantastic discussion. Thank you.
Were you going to make Mike’s notes/presentation an available link in the show notes?
Lets see Him together. "When the bride hath made herself ready"
After learning the Baal cycle story on my own, I think it makes a lot of sense to infer that the ancient Prophets who were preaching about a dying God would be put to death by zealous Yahwhists makes a lot of sense. They would have seen the parallels between the Baal cycle and the prophetic teachings regarding Jesus as the incarnate Yahweh as equivocation between the two deities, which would rub them all the wrong way. Perhaps, when some stories of the Old Testament condemns Baal worshippers, perhaps in their fervour they're also condemning Yahweh worshippers that were teaching about Jesus. Interesting ideas to entertain.
Very interesting and insightful
I like Avraham Gileadi’s thoughts about kings and queens in his explanation of the Suzerain/ Vassal structure.
He’s a distraction.
That was awesome! Will we be able to view Mike's notes?
That's fascinating. How do you make the argument for a year or several months atleast? 3 nephi 8 :5 and 10:18 thanks
check out sept oct archaeology magazine 2021 article on the sacred rites of samothrace. it's like you say these things are all over, and ingrained in all cultures. the ancient prayer circles nibley talks about is another one, this is good stuff, and obvious to see if you know what your looking at,
very good
Mike, can you please provide a citation for Moshe's dissertation on threshing floors? Like his full name, title of dissertation, institution and year?
I have a question. The Stone of Scone, that has been used under the coronation throne of the Kings and Queens of the British Isles, is this a "type" of the "Rock" you describe as the "rock" of the Holy of Holies?
The Stone of Scone is the stone noted where Jacob laid his head when he saw the vision of the ladder rising up into Heaven.
This stone was carried to Ireland by Jeremiah as he traveled there with Mulek and his sister Tamar Telphi when they left Egypt. Jeremiah took them to Egypt to safety when Zedekiah was taken to Babylon.
Hey Greg, quick (unrelated) question: is this the Stick of Joseph’s new studio? Or is it yours?
45:00 ish, JFM was wrong, the two sticks are one in his hand.
I know people who had JFM as a mish pres in Scotland. I've heard that and other sayings many times.
WRT ancient literacy, I've seen medieval scholars say that the idea that "the Middle Ages were full of illiterate peasants" is incredibly deceptive and based on wordplay more than reality. They would use writing and reading very commonly in their day-to-day lives, because it's so fantastically useful. But they would read and write in their native tongue. Meanwhile, the language of _literature_ was Latin, which they could not read. Therefore, they were not _literate_ (educated,) but they still made very pragmatic use of writing.
Is it possible that we've got similar conditions in ancient times, where the sacral/liturgical/elite language and the common tongue were two different things, and The People could read and write and comprehend the latter but not the former?
Mike Day!
Wait a minute. We can't have authority without responsibility? Drat. 😅
It makes me laugh when I hear someone say that Oral traditions would turn out to be the telephone game, or that humans cannot memorize the amount of materials that would be required to have Oral traditions
My response is… how do you explain Shakespeare actors, they memorize Bible equivalent materials to be able to act out his plays
How do you explain people today who have memorized the entire Bible and recite it as a play for audiences
We still have Oral traditions in our own day…
Or some pacific islanders who can recite their ancestry for millenia.
Christ appeared at the Temple and people were already gathered there, then the people ran to go get their sick and infirmed and bring them to Jesus… people were already at the Temple because as Jews they had gathered there for Tabernacles…
MIKE "MUHFUGGIN" DAY!!!!
the ad's are ridicules and the timing must be the advsery
Sincere questions:
Why didn’t Joseph Smith construct Kirkland and Nauvoo temples with the multiple room pattern we do now?
Why weren’t Joseph and Hyrum wearing temple garments?
Where are the source documents for temple endowment ordinance?
Why is there no mention of temple worship in Book of Mormon after Christ came to America?
Why is there no mention of “exaltation” in the Book of Mormon in the context of eternal salvation?
In the temple endowment we covenant to keep the Doctrine of Christ but why did we add “receive the Lords’s ordinances” which was strictly prohibited to, add to or take away from, the DoC?
Why are temple ordinances excluded from the Doctrine of Christ as explained in BoM if they are required for salvation?
The endowment was originally performed by Joseph Smith up in the attic of the red brick store to a few people, maybe 20? 30? He arranged the room with dividers so as to make separate rooms.
He didn't receive the full endowment ordinance until after the 2 temples mentioned were already under construction, and just like everything else in the church we believe in continuing revelation, an example of this is that baptisms for the dead and sealing didn't look anything like what we currently perform. Men were being sealed to the prophet and to the apostles because they believed you needed to be sealed to a priesthood figure or authority, as opposed to family being sealed to family creating an unbroken chain.
As for the temple garments, same answer as before, I don't believe they wore them 24/7 like we do, until after Joseph's death
There is no mention of Exaltation or the temple endowment in the book of mormon. By name. It's there, 3 ether is a temple text, and follows many of the same themes as the temple endowment, when christ returns in 3 nephi, he gives the temple ceremony, in 1 nephi the tree of life vision is a temple text. I don't know if you're a member or if you know anything about the temple ceremony, but the symbolism is thick, and it's there for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. If you don't have either of those then it won't matter what evidence I give you, you won't believe it anyways.
As for your Doctrine of Christ questions, I'm confused. How does us doing temple ordinances add to or take away from the doctrine of Christ? Hell if you're going to go that route, why read any scriptures? They are adding onto the doctrine of Christ? Why listen to prophets and apostles? Why go to church where we learn things? Forgive me if I misunderstanding your question, but I don't personally see the temple ordinances as adding to the doctrine of christ. Also the only path to Salvation is being baptized and accepting Christ as your savior. The temple ordinances are for Exaltation, not salvation. The distinction is important.
“Sincere questions”
And the purpose of all of this is...............................................................?
To deepen our understanding and appreciation of the Temple experience. Apostasy in every dispensation includes a rejection or distortion of Temple teachings.