The HHKB Ctrl key makes lot of sense to me, that 's the reason why i love it so much. I needed some time to get used to the arrow layout, but eventually like it very much too. HHKB is great for Vim coding and fast typing (i type long ass novel). The point of this keyboard is that you have to put your index fingers at F and J, middle fingers and ring finger to reach around the letters and numbers key, your small fingers for Ctrl and Enter, and you dont need to move your whole hands (and arms) to reach Ctrl C or Ctrl V, just pull your left index finger down and BOOM, very quick and natural actually.
I agree with you totally. I have also remapped caps lock key on my laptop to act as a control to mimic this. When I thought about this I realized that having a caps lock on the home row of any keyboard is a big fat mistake from the layout persprective. Places where ctrl keys are conventionally are very hard to reach. So when I saw the layout of the HHKB I immediatelly thought that this is a very interesting design choice and I started to think about trying it. I am using it currently for several months and quite happy with it.
To be fair, having the Ctrl key on the home row was something that computer users (especially "hackers") were a lot more familiar with back in 1996 than they are today, since it was the norm from the first computer terminals of the early 1970s through the late 1980s on many computers -- even on some computers that were still in current production at the time, if you count the Amiga 1200s that were made by Escom. And most laptops did have a PS/2 keyboard/mouse port at the time, too.
I totally agree. Especially as the HHK is geared towards people that have used SUN workstations. SUN keyboards usually had Caps Lock and Ctrl swapped. So for those people the placement was natural. I think TT is a heavy Windows user, or grew up with Windows, so it's totally understandable that he is used to having the layout as on IBM PC keyboards.
@@root42 But even the original IBM PC, XT, PCjr, and AT keyboards had Ctrl on the home row. Putting Caps Lock there wasn't the norm for PCs until the Model M's 101-key layout became the industry standard.
@@vwestlife You are right. I wasn't aware of that, as I started out with an AT clone with full AT keyboard. I think that one was the first to move Ctrl to the bottom left then.
I was in Japan in the Navy just before this came out. At that time, it was pretty much 100 yen to the dollar. Things were generally a little more expensive than they were in the US at the time, but not a lot.
I have to applaud you for the way you adjusted for purchasing power. A lot of people might've opted for exchange rate adjustment would could potentially be very misleading. Picking a contemporary product in a similar product category, sold in both markets, very smart.
Caps-lock-as-control is probably the single biggest keyboard ergonomic change I ever made. I think it’s pretty dependent on hand size / shape really. I couldn’t live without it now.
Blasphemer! The control key being located to the immediate left of the 'A' key is the one, true key placement. Yes, I'm old and grew up typing on an Apple //e keyboard. Most of the terminals I used in college also had the control key located in the correct spot.
@@42crazyguy Thank you for telling me what's important to me. Without people like you, responding to an obviously-facetious, year-old comment, people like us wouldn't know what to think. I'm reminded of a video I recently watched from a different TH-camr, who modified a bicycle so that turning the steering wheel to the right actually turned the front wheel to the left, and vice versa. After several months of practice, he was able to smoothly ride the bike, but then found that he had problems riding a normal bike. Or perhaps someone who learned to type proficiently on a Sholes (QWERTY) keyboard who is forced to use a Dvorak keyboard. It boils down to what you're used to, what you can do without thinking. And, reading the first page or two of other comments, I see that there are a goodly number of people who agree with placing the ctrl key on home row, or at least have fond memories of the days when it was located there.
@@42crazyguy >rational explanation as to the facetious joke comment and that people who are used to older products with control in a different key placement area will find bottom left control cumbersome and annoying >"lol you mad bro??" >tfw you're maidenless cuck
The Apple double forward slash e. A classic Edit: This is actually an interesting rabbit hole, I've now seen: IIe ||e //e ][e To me, the roman Numeral double capital i version seems obviously correct but maybe there's a debate to be had.
I personally love small keyboards, but I need my arrow keys. So I generally draw the line at 65% boards, or the somewhat unusual "60% with arrows" layout. I wouldn't necessarily let your experience with this board sour you on small keyboards in general -- you just have to find one that works for you. The Cherry board you mentioned is basically a 75% layout board, and there are lots of very nice boards being made these days in that layout.
Yeah I love 75%. I could take or leave the function keys but I use arrows and navigation all the time. I’ve been considering an ErgoDox or cousin layout though since I can make it be anything I want. But I’ve been considering it for a few years and haven’t done anything about it, so I’m clearly happy with my 75%.
What I did is remap the right shift/menu/windows/control cluster to arrows, but that does mess with your muscle memory a bit. I really prefer full-size keyboards anyway when I have a chance - if I'm on the go the laptop keyboard is enough, if I'm at a desk I have enough space not to cripple myself.
@@kaitlyn__L I don't think I could do without function keys. I use them to swap from desktop to desktop and even to shift apps to a given desktop. I don't think I could make do with anything less than full-size given the number of shortcuts I have setup.
I moved Ctrl to CapsLock a very long time ago and I would never go back. Ctrl+C is the most natural feeling hand position in the world in this configuration, to me. Reaching all the way down to the lower left is unnatural, again for me. Just goes to show that there are never any absolutes when it comes to ergonomics. Your experience with CapsLock-Ctrl is my experience with standard Ctrl.
I'll go to bat for the control positioning. I've been using it for several years, and I generally prefer it. Ctrl-Z/X are more difficult to hit, but in exchange every other right side key is easier to hit in conjunction with control. You also don't have to move your hand nearly as far away from home row (either WASD or ASDF) for shortcuts, and IMO it's more comfortable for crouching in games. It's personal preference though, and the HHKB makes enough layout sins outside of its control placement that I don't think I could stick with it either.
In games your able to rebind crouch. After years and years with Lenovo laptops SHIFT is the standard crouch button for me. I do not even remember but I think some games comes out of the box with SHIFT as standard no? I'm quite sure Minecraft is one of the games? Really I just change it and never reflect on it future. But yea it makes more sense having it on caps lock position in a way. But agen you can easily change that. And for sprinting or whatever CAPS makes more sense and leaving shift to SHIFT to crouch.. When writing SHIFT is so second nature and in games SHIFT is easy to grab and HOLD. YOUR SO USED TO SCREAMING! So running and jumping doing a crouch is not hard. But CTL+Z? Na that you need burned into memory. And in general I have problems with Lenovo and the likes having moved control key... Like still in games I only use control key for less used actions since I'm used to it being a FN key. Cures Lenovo!
It is standard Unix position, and I sometimes switch into it. Problem is that CAPS LOCK is necessary if you want to write regional characters in capitals, like ŽÝÁÍÉÚŮ, so for me this HHK (and similar) who doesn't have it is problematic. You can program layers on the newer ones but that is a hassle to use.
In early 2021 I've got an used HHKB Pro 2 for half the price, and I can say that it's serving me really well. I needed a small keyboard that was comfy to use and not that loud (I used to bring my Model M at school, and it comically poked out of my bag), and that for me works well, Topre switches feel really good. I was already good at touchtyping and I used heavily both Vi and Emacs, switching to that layout helped me since that UNIX and those editors heavily relies on CTRL, Meta, esc and other modifiers, and using an ordinary AT layout keyboard wasn't comfortable (pressing CTRL with the pinky on those is not comfortable at all). Fortunately it has DIP switches to rebind some keys: I rebound the delete to backspace (only old UNIXes like SunOS used del to delete) and the diamond key to alt (and I usually press those keys using the thumbs). In the end it's not a keyboard for anyone: either you like it or hate it.
I got an hhkb pro 2 when I graduated college - been a fan forever I actually love the Control key location, easier on the wrists. The Pro II's Super button and being able to swap alt and the 'mac' buttons on the pro helps too
I've found the sweet spot to be 75% form factor. It includes the navigation cluster, F row, and arrow keys in a more compact layout without moving the backspace down a row (see Nuphy's Air75/Halo75 for reference). Lots of newer small keyboards will just have second layer keys without even labeling them, and I consider that a sin of manufacturing.
Funny... I actually prefer CTRL being in the caps lock position. My pinky tends to rest on the home row already, and if I need to use a CTRL from the normal position I'll end up pressing it with the side of my hand rather than my pinky. I remember wanting a HHK really badly back in the day. I seem to remember them being both hard to obtain and too expensive... so I never ended up buying one.
i find Ctrl where it id on the HHKB far more ergonomic. US wise PFU didnt selll direct in US until very recently so you had to go through licensed resellers of which there was only one for quite some time.
The rant against the positioning of the control key was fascinating - especially as it appeared to totally ignore the *actual* problem you are having: when the CTRL key became a standard item on a computer keyboard (in the way-back days) it was expected that the users would be taught how to type and/or simply be accustomed to proper typewriter keyboards. Including holding your wrists off the desk and keeping your knuckles approximately over the bottom letter row or space bar (depending on hand size). Holding your hands like this, reaching with the pinky is a slight tilt, not some massive reach. Managing CTRL-z,x,c,v becomes really easy, even when your keyboard only has a single CTRL key (as quite a few keyboards provided two CTRL keys, just as they do SHIFT keys, especially those that predate PCs/Windows/Macs and their funky new ALT/CMD keys). It is, obviously, totally up to you to choose your typing position, but it is a bit rich to say so much against the HHK's CTRL when you aren't even willing to *try* to use it the way it was *designed* to be used. You made absolutely *no* attempt to find any of this out - which for a channel that claims to be all about old computers is simply not on. And then saying that CTRL should not be there on "modern systems" - basically, you are saying that "modern systems" should only be accessible to people who can't be bothered to learn typing! You've done better wrt explaining historical context, otherwise it wouldn't be worth the effort to chastise.
Forgot to add: when the HHK was designed, it wasn't expected to be used with only one hand! Trying to do FN-ALT-CURSOR when there is a an ALT under your left hand...
The original HHK was meant for the Palm Pilot and other PDA Devices as well PC (mostly laptops) to connect to a "Full Sized Keyboard." It was also sold for around $99 in the USA. I do not know about the HHK II to speak of it, but $199 for a keyboard was ridiculous. At CompUSA at the time one could get a keyboard and mouse for under $50.
Just a note to say that "Crusader: No Regret" and "Crusader: No Remorse" (one of which is a game shown in the background featuring the person in the all-encasing red armour) were both absolutely fantastic games. Isometric 3d action-puzzlers accompanied by live-action video cut scenes, "in-universe" paper instruction manuals, and a wonder plot with tonnes of twists that invested you into the wellbeing of the characters.
When I first saw the HHK and its lack of arrow keys I was baffled. I read the story behind the HHK and its inventor and still couldn't figure out its purpose. At least the HHK Lite was introduced which had arrow keys. And its wedge shape made it perfect for literally hacking it to put my C64 DTV into. :D
I have used the KBC Poker for the last 13 years and its awsume. Basically a slight modded version of HHK with cherry keys. Fixes alot if not all the points mentioned here, multiple keys can be remapped by dip switches.
I respect your feelings about cap lock/control (use what works best for you). As a long term emacs user I committed myself to cap=ctrl and haven't looked back. I made sure my insurance covers "emacs claw". I can't remember the last time I "needed" cap lock. I think my brain automatically goes to echoing the sentence into `/bin/tr "[a-z]" "[A-Z]"` if I need many loud letters outside of a terminal. None of my friends understand me 🥺
I actually originally said in the video that it was more of an emacs thing than a unix thing in general. But I decided to walk that back while recording because I've never really used emacs (vim), so I'm not sure if that is really fair. Screen uses ctrl+a with other keys a lot as well so it's not just emacs, but I've only ever heard emacs users like yourself still using that layout.
@@TechTangents the craziest thing was when i met a person who changed their terminal input bindings. Ctrl+a like you said is also beginning of line for gnu bash (ctrl+e is end. Etc). He used vim inputs. It crashed my brain. I had no idea it was even possible. It was like forgetting to walk for a moment when i had to use his terminal momentarily.
Even as a Windows user I much prefer control in the caps position. Caps lock is such a useless key and it's in prime real estate. Maybe I have bigger hands but there's never been a comfort problem for me.
@@TechTangents Daily I use ctrl+[ for vim (and ctrl+c +d etc) and have ctrl mapped to caps lock. Never have looked back; it's the ideal ctrl position imho. Edit: just tried and it seems like i naturally end up using my ring finger for ctrl+z. However I seem to use my pinky otherwise. I also end up moving my hands from home row, but I touch type weirdly. Perhaps it's down to the exact layout, size, and typing style? That said, I can get behind pretty much everything else you said about the layout. Especially about arrow keys; separated inverted t is ideal imho. My friend in high school had one of those Tandy word processors, and it was nice to use.
It's always interesting to see how other people type. I noticed you don't use your thumbs for space, and you favor your index finger. Nothing wrong with that, we all become proficient in our own way with our own quirks and style. I typically only use my pinky fingers for shift, tab, delete, or modifier keys, but don't use my pinky fingers for any actual typing, usually.
@@kaitlyn__L I do the same thing but only for ALT. I use my pinky for CNTL and have never gotten into the habit of using the Windows/Super key. Also always with my left hand for some reason. I'm also in the habit of using my right thumb to actuate ENTER on the numpad when my right hand is using the mouse. I wonder if anyone has ever tried to codify how to use a Model M layout keyboard or whether the anarchy of personal choice works well enough that no one has bothered.
@@kaitlyn__L you're comment made me realize I do tend to use my thumb for modifiers like command / alt option, but I will pinky for control. hahahah kind of strange, it's something we don't really usually take time to think or reflect on
The fact that they reduced the size of the board so much, and then left those giant spaces on either edge of the bottom. I would prefer Vim style arrow keys on hjkl, but since you have to hold that fn key I can see why they didn't do that. I like the standard Capslock key rebound to Escape, especially in Vim where you use the Escape key a lot. Shift+Caps is the new Capslock. I do use a modern keyboard with a Windows key though, so.
Literally the first thing i do on ANY system is make caps lock into a control key. I HATE that its a caps lock key there, having the control key there makes SO MUCH more sense. I really don't understand how you can consider it being ergonomically inconsiderate?? I have so much more trouble reaching the lower left corner of the keyboard than to hit ctrl than i do to literally just move it one key to the left from A. Though, I suppose it's a bit different in that I use DVORAK and most of my commands are 2 handed. But even when i'm using QWERTY its hardly the issue you make it out to be. Also, its so funny that you type exactly like i do, no thumbs involved because LONG FINGERS.
I've been using HHKB for somewhere around half a year and I must say that I really like it. I still can use standard layout on other keyboards. Unfortunatelly laptop layouts are never consistent even when it comes to the same brand. But anyway, I really like the keyboard. I could understand your frustration but, yeah, you have to unlearn some things to start using it with comfort. I don't think you can just "try it" for a week and feel something. It takes more time to learn. A month or two, I think. I am a sortware engineer and I use vim. I get when you said that you started pressing caps lock instead of ctrl on other keyboards. I still hit ctrl+d instead of a down arrow key when I select search result in Google search sometimes. I also accidentally close the tab by hitting ctrl+w instead of ctrl+backspace when I want to delete previous word. Well, this gets much better over time. Thank you for this review. I could also see that you have some really-really good retro stuff.
Hm, I can imagine that the HHK is GREAT for vim users. There you don't need the cursor keys, nor the function keys. I imagine navigation will work quite well using that keyboard.
I've been using a HHKB Pro 2 for years and I'm very happy with it, and you might find it a little better, or tolerable, because it has a Win key. As for the Ctrl key, I find it great and very pleasant to use in certain games where Ctrl is used for crouching and among other things. And the switches, I don't know how the HHKB compares to the Pro 2, but Topre switches are excellent I think. Might be worth looking into the Realforce keyboards as well. The layout I can understand why someone might not like it, especially if you rely on keys where you have to use Fn to access them.
I once knew someone who had multiple of those ML keyboards, used them for all their daily typing, and even strung a number of extension cables across the room to control their HTPC with one!
You grew up in the Windows era, and thus your "ergonomics" has been defined by Windows keyboard layouts. I grew up in the pre-Windows days, and my "ergonomics" is defined by the keyboards of that era, that is, mainly having the control key beside the "a" key. I have an early HHK, and I love it. It takes up less space, and has the control key in the correct place. But I have moved on to a wireless keyboard due to my needs, so I use a wireless logitech keyboard/mouse combo. Like many Gen Xers, my first computer was a Apple ][+ system which also had a Z80 card & 80 column card in it so I could run CP/M. The control key was beside the "a" key. My first full screen editor was WordStar, and my first database was dBase II. Back then, most text editors followed the WordStar control+ command format, and that is very good for people who do a lot of writing and editing. For example, Hugo, Aurora and Nebula award winning Science Fiction writer Robert J. Sawyer is also a big fan of the WordStar system. He has managed to get a version of WordStar to run under semi-current WIndows versions. And many professionals in the field still prefer the WordStar control system. A person using WordStar control key based editing can move around their text much much faster than anyone who uses other systems, because if you are touch typist, all your cursor movements and editing command can be accomplished WITHOUT HAVING TO MOVE YOUR FINGERS FROM HOME ROW! I type something in excess of 60 wpm, with bursts up to 100, and not having to more your fingers off home row is *golden*. Here is a link to Rob's commentary on WordStar: sfwriter.com/wordstar.htm It's Unix cred is totally legit. My first Unix experience was on a Sun Workstation running SunOS. From there I went to running Minix, and about 6 months after Linus released his kernel, I started using Linux, and SLS was my first distro. When IBM came out with their model M, many Unix people had ignored it because all "real" unix systems had control keys beside the "a", eg Sun workstations, Apollo, SGI, HP, etc. As Linux became more popular, and we had to use IBM keyboards, one of the first things most people did after installing Liux was remap the keybaord, swapping the Contorl and CapsLock keys. There is even a specific switch in the X11 configuration that does that. With the HHK, you didn't have to do that, as it was one of the few out there that had the control key in the "correct" place. My first action upon installing a new version of Windows or Linux these days is still to remap the keyboard.
I imagined a hacking keyboard to have lots of keys, more than a standard 105-key. Don't know why. Maybe as we always see hackers in movies with multiple monitors and large setups.
Very good. I had long lusted after one of these (always slightly worried about the fact they were membrane) but I can now forget about it. I use Cherry MX brown based Filco keyboards (a TenKeyless for my desktop and a Majestouch for travel) and like the tactil feel (liked and had the MX blues also but was almost drummed out of office because of the noise). The best keyboard I've ever had was on a Nascom 2 computer (latee 70's, early 80's). These had a Licon keyboard which has contactless keys (a piece of metal or a magnet moves between two plates when you press the key a pulse is transferred when key is down). Too big to use with a modern PC and to few key (although it does have nice cursor keys). I have toyed with the idea of using an Arduino Leonardo to interface it to a PC (the Leonardo has a proper USB inteface and there is a keyboard library, I used it to add a big media controller to my mates music laptop.
Shelby raises some valid points - price, arrow key layout - but this review is for a long discontinued model and other points are completely irrelevant now, such as the pigtail connector. This review is a little misguided, it doesn’t address that the pigtail connector or underwhelming membrane switches do not apply to the current model, and personal distaste of certain features have thrown off the balance of this review. If you are on the fence or still curious about this highly polarising product, perhaps take this review with a grain of salt and seek other reviews relevant to the currently sold model. The hate towards the Ctl key surprised me. Since using the HHKB, I did not realise how much I used the Ctrl key, found using my left pinky to operate it effortless and wondered why the bloody Caps Lock key gets such prime real estate on regular keyboards. After a while, I even found using the arrow keys effortless, and after several years of using it everyday, the price really isn’t an issue for something so heavily used and will probably work flawlessly for years to come. Again, not for everyone. If you do a lot of programming and regular touch typing, it might be your jam. If you need stuff like a number pad for accounting or are pretty rigid in your ways, it’s a world of hate.
I agree, I posted a rather long winded comment addressing this review. If we were in 1996, this would be a great review. In 2023, it should have been more "hey, look at this quirky expensive-ass thing from 30yrs ago!" I think a review of this style would have been better when reviewing the current Hybrid models, and he'd have found more to like, and it'd have been more useful to the modern audience. No one, who doesn't already want an original HHKB for some reason, is going to ever come across, let alone buy, a $300 new original membrane HHKB.
when it comes to currencies like Japanese Yen or Mexican Pesos, it helps to think of the base currency being more like a penny than a dollar. so, 25,000JPY is about the same as $250 if it were on a dollar-system price tag.
I always rebind caps lock to control and that's pretty common for developers on Mac/Linux so I can't agree with you on that one. The layout does seem more mac friendly than most non-specific keyboards. Option and Command are almost always reversed on a modern keyboard that isn't mac specific. I do need proper arrow keys though.
But, NOT the most expensive keyboard ever by a HUGE margin. I'm fairly sure that honor belongs to the Optimus Maximus, at around $2000 in 2007 money. Why the steep price? Each key had a 48x48 pixel 16 bit color OLED screen in it that you could program to show whatever image you wanted, and it was program-sensitive: The keyboard could be set up to change what the screens displayed depending on what program you were using. The key displays were able to display animations at up to 10 frames/second, and could also be used in groups to display mosaic images. This is the only keyboard I've ever seen that requires a separate power supply to operate.
i was very excited to see the cherry ml4100! i picked one up at a goodwill and i've been using this keyboard for about 5 years as my main keyboard. one issue is that the switches can bind at times when pressed at an angle. also the exclusion of a windows key meant that i had to write an ahk script to adjust my usual shortcuts (win + l, win + g). i actually plan on removing the keyboard on my laptop and custom fitting my cherry into it when i have the time. great video and keep up the good work!
I write embedded software, so I routinely use F-keys with one hand while I'm pressing switches switches or using a logic analyzer with the other. Layers are fine for most keys, but I can't do without dedicated f-keys.
Here I am using an Apple Magic Keyboard, and it’s .... fine. I feel like I could spend a month each on three or four different keyswitch types and not be able to tell which was which. I often wonder if Cherry Whatever vs Whatever Else is like trying to distinguish wines. “It’s definitely a red.” 😉
:/ Have you tried a geuinley tactile switch, like jwick t1s, alps blue, or something else? Cuz those deffinatley feel different than mx blue, brown, or red. I get what your saying and DO agree, but its beacuse mx brown and red and blue all feel like a mebrane keyboard. But if you have a geuinley tactile switch is going to feel miles different from a apple magic keyboard
I think much of it also has to do with the operating system and programs you use. As someone who is now primarily on a Mac (but was a Windows user for 90% of my life), the HHKB layout makes a ton of sense and it’s been really easy to go between the Macbook Keyboard and HHKB layout.
I always wondered about these HHKs and wanted to try one, but cost prevented me from getting one. I use a Poker II on my bedroom computer. I would say the layer situation is something to get the hang of, and now seeing how the HHKs layers are setup I appreciate how the Poker II is set up closer to a normal keyboard.
It's funny how mad you got about the position about the CTRL key. I know a few people that get even more mad about the "proper" position of the CTRL key, and they always remap their keyboards to put CTRL where CAPS LOCK usually goes. They claim that the location of the CAPS LOCK key is the _ONLY_ natural and proper place to put a CTRL key on a keyboard.
@@TechTangents HUH? "standard rubber dome"? I type this reply on a Logitech K400+, i paid 20€ for this and it has a trackpad! I couldn't that as my couch-media keyboard and i have a real keyboard on my desk if i want to touchtype. My experience with my Razer Huntsman Elite (Linux user here, no synapse) has opened my eyes to "good" switches and i would spend 5€ on a membrane board and refuse to use as daily driver. :D My first mechanical KB had red Kailhs and they were so light i would find my character strafing off the map if i looked away from screen, good for Monster Hunter especially,
@@woldemunster9244 yeah my first mech also had red switches. and found them a little too "touchy" since then i've switched to black switches and love em.
control is in the better spot, also, you can rebind key on any keyboard in Power Toys if you use windows, even with weird scan codes. I actually stopped reprogramming my own teensy once I migrated to it.
re ctrl.... huh? That's a standard location for the left control key on numerous classic systems and for us emacs users a very common location. I remap caplock to ctrl on 100% of my systems.
What's the keyboard that you showed at the beginning? I am on the lookout for a wireless mechanical keyboard (not clicky, if possible) with F-keys and separate cursor block. EDIT: Got it, it's a Keychron K8, as mentioned later in the video!
I used one of these from 2001 until around 2015 every day all day. I don't think you are the target audience for this keyboard. Why do I say that? What's an arrow key? I doubt I used an arrow key a dozen times in my life. I had the Dvorak keycap option, as well. I switched from this to a Sun Type 6 USB keyboard which I still use. Lots of extra application specific keys; quite the opposite of the HHKB.
Ahoy, Thanks for the fun video. I never even heard of the HHK before this video. I have the Cherry G84-4100 keyboard (but PC version with Win keys) and love using it. It is my goto keyboard for testing systems. I bought it on eBay over two years ago searching for a white keyboard. I thought I paid too much at $42 but found out they are sought after. Now I am so glad I bought that one. daveyb
@@profosist The Lite does not make any sense imo... I had it when I was a poor student but the keys were very squishy and nothing was special except the size
The control and backspace keys on HHKBs have been so much better in my experience that I've mapped every other keyboard I use to work that way. Even my laptop keyboards use the '\ |' key for backspace and the "capslock" key for control The only time I find the HHKB layout annoying is gaming (using normal CTRL placement for crouching) & base layer arrow keys for easier 1 handed use
oh my god, I recognize the cherry keyboard, my dad had that keyboard as a spare when I was really young (less than 10 years old) and I remember playing with it. I taped it to a box big enough for me to sit in that I had written "time machine" on
Whenever I see something like this, I wonder what's the appeal (beyond "Look how small it is, it's so cuuute!"). I do get that some people have little space, but that's far from accounting for their (apparent) popularity. I thought I was just "not getting it", but then pretty much every review that I've seen of any keyboard smaller than TKL mentions compromises that they would rather not have to make.
I like the "HP" layout where you still get the arrow keys and the nav cluster, though it's crushed down to be a single column of keys on the right. I don't feel like I miss any keys then. though my keyboard is F-keyless. although your cherry keyboard is basically the same
If I had to rely on that keyboard for cut, copy, and paste, I'd find myself using the Fn key as needed plus Shift+Delete or Shift+Insert more often, though Control+Insert would be awkward regardless.
Really great content. I've been using only mechanicals for a few years now. I need a backlit keyboard, personally. I usually have two or more keyboard profiles activated into my OS in order to type in other languages as well as English. I have a hotkey setup, when I push both 'shift' keys together, the keys are switched from English, to the next language in my profile (Hebrew for example) and I've set the "scrolllock' LED to light up when the keyboard's set to a foreign language. Thanks for the content. Keep up the good work. בס״ד
As far as layout goes, I wonder how much of this is a chicken/egg situation. Usually, keyboards are designed to be user friendly for common key combinations, but software must have been designed with key bindings that were comfortable to use with whatever keyboard it was intended to be used with. In a world where the Happy Hacking Keyboard was as popular as the IBM Model M, cut, copy, and paste would probably be bound to a more comfortable key combinations. Just a thought, I'll stick with the model M and it's descendants though.
I use Karabiner Elements to map Control to "Return" (when hit in combination with other keys) and Control to Caps lock. Plus I use navigation like in Emacs: Ctrl + N, Ctrl + P (Next, Previous) and Ctrl+A (beginning of line), Ctrl+E (End of line). So I don't miss that. But where I agree with you is "Shift + Arrow" for selecting text is awkward on this device.
I tried switching to a keyboard this small before (with a more standard layout) but the lack of function keys borthered me to no end. I'll stick with TKL since I don't use numpads anyway.
Wow, you know, I cant really figure out *why* the layout is like that. Usually, a japanese keyboard would have a small spacebar and in its place you would get muhenkan/henkan/eisu/kana, or whatever language input keys they felt they needed. I cant figure out why control is up there and there is no caps lock key, at least in the unix layout. If it was an actual unix layout you could swap ctrl and caps, and I think if it actually had the extra language input keys it would be a bit more versatile. I don't know why you couldnt get those keys to swap though, thats a bummer. Removing keys without even putting them on a layer is a big no no for a non programmable keyboard, imo. The keys actuating under resting pressure was also insane to me.
The keys right next to the space bar can be flipped between muhenkan and space Fn keys, but I don't know how it works in muhenkan mode though. I'm guessing the OS needs to support it and Kubuntu doesn't. But it was weird, I can read the scan code for the key in linux but was not able to use it for anything. If it didn't have *so many* other compromises I would investigate more for a solution but it is a problem I have no reason to solve for now.
@@TechTangents not sure if you use X11 or Wayland, but those keys are supported on linux. maybe you would have to uncomment ja_JP.UTF-8 in /etc/locale.gen or switch to the jp keyboard layout. I used to use a japanese keyboard on my old thinkpad with fcitx/mozc, however the ime should only be necessary to make them functional, they should still register to the os.
It's that way because HHKB is not just a "Unix" keyboard, it's specifically a Sun Type 4 clone. On a Type 4 there's the Control(not Ctrl) there and Sun ◇ there, and "a real hacker don use the arrows" so those are the reasons for layout choices.
i guess no hackers like having a numpad? that's what turns me off most of these niche keyboards. i've also gotten use to having a volume control over the years
Ugh same... I can't tolerate TKL keyboards, I get it the numpad gets in the way for most people, but in my case, having a numepad doesn't bother me for two reasons, first, the fact that I'm left-handed (yup lol) and second, (that one actually is the reason why I have trouble using keyboards smaller than full-size) on the keyboard layout that my country uses we have to use the shift key to use the top number key row, as we normally use it to write down accents and other characters (à, é, è, ~, #, @, &, ^-accented letters and the "tréma" such as ë, ï, ü, ÿ and so on...). Volume control would be nice too but I'm not really using it that much (I just adjust the volume on my speakers), currently using a Dell AT102W, but I'm thinking of switching it out for something else as it tends to lock up if I hold down several keys at once. I had a netbook at some point that obviously had no num pad, it was... Not too bad but a bit annoying at times, it was one of these netbooks with the "layered numpad" where you have to hold the function key to type numbers, whaddya know this netbook has a "FN LOCK" key that I'd sometimes press by mistake and get confused why it's typing numbers instead of letters.. Fun stuff. On an unrelated tangeant, my iBook G3's (clamshell, 466SE graphite, one of the last before they switched to the iceBook style as used on the early MacBooks), keyboard is exactly like that too, it has a FN lock key, and the same layered numpad... It ain't easy for me to juggle between Mac and PCs (I'm primarily a PC guy) but I can adapt, just takes me a looong time 🤣
I have one of those Cherry Keyboards. But I think the one I have, while being compressed has the full set including the number pad. The keys have a very nice feel, and it's my go to keyboard for when I need to work with an AT based system and don't have the space for something bigger.
"nice feel" have you tried an actual good mk. Get an alps white keyboard and clean it, then come back to me and tell me its GOOD AT ALL. Cherry ml is a scratchy, bindy switch(but tbf it probably is better than most rubber mush that modern cheap keyboards come with)
I'd have suggested doing currency conversion then inflation rather than a comparative conversion since the N64 would have been sold at particular vanity price breakpoints by region, not at converted rates.
I'm looking at an HHKB Lite 2 because of some of the design changes they did, namely adding a squashed (but proper) arrow key set, and you can grab it in the JP layout.
I thoroughly despise smaller keyboards for main, desktop use. I didn't mind one on a netbook, and the Logitech K400+ is alright (I only use it for my Raspberry Pi now). I'm a fan of nice, big keyboards with extra keys and features. The pervasiveness of tiny keyboards in the custom scene is actually really annoying. Ignoring the fact they're super expensive, AFAIK there isn't a single, solitary custom keyboard base that actually ticks all my feature boxes, features that once a price gets high enough, are absolutely mandatory: Full layout (glory to the numpad) Volume dial Multimedia or macro keys Wrist rest and a USB hub is a nice-to-have. and because ~gamer~, per key RGB lighting (it's great for emphasising per game commonly used key.) I used to use cheapy multimedia keyboards, Logitech Media Keyboad 600, and a Dell SK-8135, but moved to a Logitech G910 when one went on sale. The only thing that's missing is the USB hub from the Dell board. I have never seen a full size custom board with a volume dial though.
For me it's full ANSI or bust. I really hate that one company that makes a keyboard that I like in terms of features and layouts, Glorious PC Gaming Race, decided that on their second iteration of the GMMK they will make the "full-size" model some 96% abomination. It would've been a perfect daily driver if not for the fact they've butchered the layout for no real desk space gain. I really, really do not understand people who give up more than just the numpad for the sake of a smaller keyboard. The numpad I can understand, though personally I like to still have it, but trimming it down to just the main section? Why?
my favorite keyboard is one I found on ebay. it's unbranded, but the model number is KU 8933. the form, layout, and keyweight are just perfect. however I keep it with my 98 machine and daily drive a roccat pyro. the keyweight is a little too light for me but otherwise fine, though I could have probably bought a version with different switches from their website, IDK.
22:39 I've taken apart a Dell Quietkey before, and they are not membrane, though they are rubber dome. They have an individual rubber dome under every single key, just sitting there, which might contribute to the feel. Very annoying to put back together, would not recommend. Might as well contribute to the control key flame war here. When using Dvorak, you don't really have a reason to reach down to the qwerty keys z, x, c, or v with control as they are ;, q, j, and k. I hadn't really thought about how awful it is to repeatedly type ctrl+c with the Unix ctrl position on qwerty. Also, it is possible to rebind any modifier (excluding fn and others that don't directly go to the computer) to another with xkb configuration files if you really wanted to go down that rabbit hole.
The alt key issue is only an issue depending on who you are. By that I mean because the keyboard is designed for multi platforms (WIndows/MacOS/Linux) compromises had to be made. In this specific case, the command (or Apple key as it was known back in the day) is in the correct place on the HHK. This makes Mac users happy, at the cost of making Windows/DOS users like yourself unhappy. It is a compromise the designers of the keyboard made. Should they have swapped them on one side to cater for both Windows and Mac users? However the control key is on the wrong place for everyone, both Windows and Mac users. I agree with you, that is a bad design choice. There is actually space on either side of the option/alt key for a smaller control key. Wasted real estate in for ask me. They should have put the control keys in that currently unused space on the board and then either put caps lock above the left shift like most keyboards or have a second function key above the left shift so you can better one hand things on the left side of the keyboard. This keyboard feels like reduced physical side just for the sake of it without any thought on how keyboards are actually used in the real world. A week test of the prototype with anyone computer savvy would easily pick up all these issues. Really everything ups picked up is not that complicated. Just basic design flaws with the product.
Man wtf that n64 packaging is so fucking god damn cool and creative and very well designed for what its doing. How the hell did the US not get those or why would anyone in their right mind say, "Hey this isnt gonna sell in the states. We need to make it as dull as possible with a really bad photo of the device. Then it will sell." 😆
I had something similar happen when I was using a Japanese OADG 109A layout keyboard. When I went back to my US layout after the cheap keyboard (not HHKB) malfunctioned, it had gone and tripped me up like I was on LSD for a few days.
I knew from the first picture I wouldn't be able to use it either. No arrow keys! And then you described the Ctrl, Alt, no (caps) extra shortcut key... with all my AHK macro shortcuts, I would jump out of the window before the end of day 1...
I am a more is better type of guy. I grew up on a C64 and when the Amiga 500 came out I absolutely loved the full size IBM type keyboard. Since that day I could never go back. I could never get into the cut down minimalist keyboards. I like desk hog keyboards. Model M/Unicomp and cherry blue switch keyboards are my favorite of the still being made today keyboards. For classic keyboards I did like the Apple Design keyboard but also the Extended 2 keyboard with Alps switches. My Tandy 1000 TL/2 came with the Tandy Enhanced keyboard which is also amazing to type on.
You might like a modern Matias, they did use the same switches as AEK2 for a long time but then switched to their own clones when Alps ceased production. But they’re really good clones. Just as clicky with the same leaf, but less stem wobble and less spring-ringing as well.
I can remap the command key in Microsoft PowerToys. Not sure why equivalent software on Linux is unable to do it. As for the kb01 and kb02, their only downside imo is the key switches.
That is a crazy price for the original membrane rubber dome version. Modern HHKB (while still in the ~$300 range), use Topre electro-capacitive switches, have USB-C, Bluetooth, are remappable, and use high quality PBT for the keycaps.
been using HHKB for almost 30 years now and it's still kicking without a single problem. Never had a reason to look at other keyboards. Even love its key layouts; including Ctrl & Fn buttons. I simply can't switch back to other keyboards due to the Ctrl & Fn key location. Personally really love this keyboard but gotta say it's not for everyone. a bit of learning curve to overcome and it's geared more toward keyboard oriented tasks; Vim / Emacs / Nano, etc... If you think using Fn for direction, should try the Vim way of it... LOL
If you are interested in a compact layout with function layers, but ones that aren't batshit insane, the Poker 2 is basically perfect (NOTE: the Poker 2 and "New Poker 2" are NOT the same)
sk-6000 ergonomic keyboard p2 computer recognizes the device but it does not work / when I go to the drivers it appears missing. I've already scanned the internet and I can't find it. Could you help me?
I accidentally press my topre switches all the time. It's worth it to me since the ultra-light actuation force doesn't hurt my fingers edit: i see this isn't the topre version, but just wanted to add my topre opinion and my opinion on keys so light you can accidentally press them
65% or less keyboards are kind of dumb and a little of posse unless you are 100% certain and positive you never ever will have to use them, and you are never certain of that. Specially when you got compact TKL that occupy more or less the same as a 65%. I have a Dierya K61, which is 65% and it grinds my gears because is the only few ones that use Gateron optical switches, which are the best switches I ever tried but the lack of PFs, del row and arrows just breaks it for me.
oh god you called it torps
The HHKB Ctrl key makes lot of sense to me, that 's the reason why i love it so much. I needed some time to get used to the arrow layout, but eventually like it very much too. HHKB is great for Vim coding and fast typing (i type long ass novel). The point of this keyboard is that you have to put your index fingers at F and J, middle fingers and ring finger to reach around the letters and numbers key, your small fingers for Ctrl and Enter, and you dont need to move your whole hands (and arms) to reach Ctrl C or Ctrl V, just pull your left index finger down and BOOM, very quick and natural actually.
I agree with you totally. I have also remapped caps lock key on my laptop to act as a control to mimic this. When I thought about this I realized that having a caps lock on the home row of any keyboard is a big fat mistake from the layout persprective. Places where ctrl keys are conventionally are very hard to reach. So when I saw the layout of the HHKB I immediatelly thought that this is a very interesting design choice and I started to think about trying it. I am using it currently for several months and quite happy with it.
To be fair, having the Ctrl key on the home row was something that computer users (especially "hackers") were a lot more familiar with back in 1996 than they are today, since it was the norm from the first computer terminals of the early 1970s through the late 1980s on many computers -- even on some computers that were still in current production at the time, if you count the Amiga 1200s that were made by Escom. And most laptops did have a PS/2 keyboard/mouse port at the time, too.
I totally agree. Especially as the HHK is geared towards people that have used SUN workstations. SUN keyboards usually had Caps Lock and Ctrl swapped. So for those people the placement was natural. I think TT is a heavy Windows user, or grew up with Windows, so it's totally understandable that he is used to having the layout as on IBM PC keyboards.
@@root42 But even the original IBM PC, XT, PCjr, and AT keyboards had Ctrl on the home row. Putting Caps Lock there wasn't the norm for PCs until the Model M's 101-key layout became the industry standard.
@@vwestlife You are right. I wasn't aware of that, as I started out with an AT clone with full AT keyboard. I think that one was the first to move Ctrl to the bottom left then.
I was in Japan in the Navy just before this came out. At that time, it was pretty much 100 yen to the dollar. Things were generally a little more expensive than they were in the US at the time, but not a lot.
I have to applaud you for the way you adjusted for purchasing power. A lot of people might've opted for exchange rate adjustment would could potentially be very misleading. Picking a contemporary product in a similar product category, sold in both markets, very smart.
Caps-lock-as-control is probably the single biggest keyboard ergonomic change I ever made. I think it’s pretty dependent on hand size / shape really. I couldn’t live without it now.
Totally agree. A layout without is broken for me.
Blasphemer! The control key being located to the immediate left of the 'A' key is the one, true key placement. Yes, I'm old and grew up typing on an Apple //e keyboard. Most of the terminals I used in college also had the control key located in the correct spot.
And tons of other people just grew up with it in the bottom left. It's not that important.
@@42crazyguy Thank you for telling me what's important to me. Without people like you, responding to an obviously-facetious, year-old comment, people like us wouldn't know what to think.
I'm reminded of a video I recently watched from a different TH-camr, who modified a bicycle so that turning the steering wheel to the right actually turned the front wheel to the left, and vice versa. After several months of practice, he was able to smoothly ride the bike, but then found that he had problems riding a normal bike.
Or perhaps someone who learned to type proficiently on a Sholes (QWERTY) keyboard who is forced to use a Dvorak keyboard.
It boils down to what you're used to, what you can do without thinking. And, reading the first page or two of other comments, I see that there are a goodly number of people who agree with placing the ctrl key on home row, or at least have fond memories of the days when it was located there.
@@mikejetzer4155 damn bro you upset?
@@42crazyguy >rational explanation as to the facetious joke comment and that people who are used to older products with control in a different key placement area will find bottom left control cumbersome and annoying
>"lol you mad bro??"
>tfw you're maidenless cuck
The Apple double forward slash e.
A classic
Edit: This is actually an interesting rabbit hole, I've now seen:
IIe
||e
//e
][e
To me, the roman Numeral double capital i version seems obviously correct but maybe there's a debate to be had.
I personally love small keyboards, but I need my arrow keys. So I generally draw the line at 65% boards, or the somewhat unusual "60% with arrows" layout. I wouldn't necessarily let your experience with this board sour you on small keyboards in general -- you just have to find one that works for you. The Cherry board you mentioned is basically a 75% layout board, and there are lots of very nice boards being made these days in that layout.
60% layout makes me crazy, i can't imagine living without arrow keys. 65%/68key is probably my favorite layout before tenkeyless
Yeah I love 75%. I could take or leave the function keys but I use arrows and navigation all the time. I’ve been considering an ErgoDox or cousin layout though since I can make it be anything I want. But I’ve been considering it for a few years and haven’t done anything about it, so I’m clearly happy with my 75%.
What I did is remap the right shift/menu/windows/control cluster to arrows, but that does mess with your muscle memory a bit. I really prefer full-size keyboards anyway when I have a chance - if I'm on the go the laptop keyboard is enough, if I'm at a desk I have enough space not to cripple myself.
@@kaitlyn__L I don't think I could do without function keys. I use them to swap from desktop to desktop and even to shift apps to a given desktop. I don't think I could make do with anything less than full-size given the number of shortcuts I have setup.
I don't mind tenkeyless with the arrows and nav condensed next to the rest. Needs sysrq though. :P
I moved Ctrl to CapsLock a very long time ago and I would never go back. Ctrl+C is the most natural feeling hand position in the world in this configuration, to me. Reaching all the way down to the lower left is unnatural, again for me. Just goes to show that there are never any absolutes when it comes to ergonomics. Your experience with CapsLock-Ctrl is my experience with standard Ctrl.
I'll go to bat for the control positioning. I've been using it for several years, and I generally prefer it. Ctrl-Z/X are more difficult to hit, but in exchange every other right side key is easier to hit in conjunction with control. You also don't have to move your hand nearly as far away from home row (either WASD or ASDF) for shortcuts, and IMO it's more comfortable for crouching in games. It's personal preference though, and the HHKB makes enough layout sins outside of its control placement that I don't think I could stick with it either.
In games your able to rebind crouch. After years and years with Lenovo laptops SHIFT is the standard crouch button for me. I do not even remember but I think some games comes out of the box with SHIFT as standard no? I'm quite sure Minecraft is one of the games? Really I just change it and never reflect on it future.
But yea it makes more sense having it on caps lock position in a way. But agen you can easily change that. And for sprinting or whatever CAPS makes more sense and leaving shift to SHIFT to crouch.. When writing SHIFT is so second nature and in games SHIFT is easy to grab and HOLD. YOUR SO USED TO SCREAMING! So running and jumping doing a crouch is not hard.
But CTL+Z? Na that you need burned into memory. And in general I have problems with Lenovo and the likes having moved control key... Like still in games I only use control key for less used actions since I'm used to it being a FN key. Cures Lenovo!
lemme give you an alternative
caps lock as shift
shift as control
It is standard Unix position, and I sometimes switch into it. Problem is that CAPS LOCK is necessary if you want to write regional characters in capitals, like ŽÝÁÍÉÚŮ, so for me this HHK (and similar) who doesn't have it is problematic. You can program layers on the newer ones but that is a hassle to use.
In early 2021 I've got an used HHKB Pro 2 for half the price, and I can say that it's serving me really well. I needed a small keyboard that was comfy to use and not that loud (I used to bring my Model M at school, and it comically poked out of my bag), and that for me works well, Topre switches feel really good.
I was already good at touchtyping and I used heavily both Vi and Emacs, switching to that layout helped me since that UNIX and those editors heavily relies on CTRL, Meta, esc and other modifiers, and using an ordinary AT layout keyboard wasn't comfortable (pressing CTRL with the pinky on those is not comfortable at all).
Fortunately it has DIP switches to rebind some keys: I rebound the delete to backspace (only old UNIXes like SunOS used del to delete) and the diamond key to alt (and I usually press those keys using the thumbs).
In the end it's not a keyboard for anyone: either you like it or hate it.
I got an hhkb pro 2 when I graduated college - been a fan forever
I actually love the Control key location, easier on the wrists.
The Pro II's Super button and being able to swap alt and the 'mac' buttons on the pro helps too
I remember getting the HHK2 and the HHK Lite at FreeBSDCon in 1999. The HHK2 was mainly used for my Sun systems. Still have both to this day.
I've found the sweet spot to be 75% form factor. It includes the navigation cluster, F row, and arrow keys in a more compact layout without moving the backspace down a row (see Nuphy's Air75/Halo75 for reference). Lots of newer small keyboards will just have second layer keys without even labeling them, and I consider that a sin of manufacturing.
Funny... I actually prefer CTRL being in the caps lock position. My pinky tends to rest on the home row already, and if I need to use a CTRL from the normal position I'll end up pressing it with the side of my hand rather than my pinky.
I remember wanting a HHK really badly back in the day. I seem to remember them being both hard to obtain and too expensive... so I never ended up buying one.
i find Ctrl where it id on the HHKB far more ergonomic. US wise PFU didnt selll direct in US until very recently so you had to go through licensed resellers of which there was only one for quite some time.
The rant against the positioning of the control key was fascinating - especially as it appeared to totally ignore the *actual* problem you are having: when the CTRL key became a standard item on a computer keyboard (in the way-back days) it was expected that the users would be taught how to type and/or simply be accustomed to proper typewriter keyboards.
Including holding your wrists off the desk and keeping your knuckles approximately over the bottom letter row or space bar (depending on hand size). Holding your hands like this, reaching with the pinky is a slight tilt, not some massive reach. Managing CTRL-z,x,c,v becomes really easy, even when your keyboard only has a single CTRL key (as quite a few keyboards provided two CTRL keys, just as they do SHIFT keys, especially those that predate PCs/Windows/Macs and their funky new ALT/CMD keys).
It is, obviously, totally up to you to choose your typing position, but it is a bit rich to say so much against the HHK's CTRL when you aren't even willing to *try* to use it the way it was *designed* to be used. You made absolutely *no* attempt to find any of this out - which for a channel that claims to be all about old computers is simply not on.
And then saying that CTRL should not be there on "modern systems" - basically, you are saying that "modern systems" should only be accessible to people who can't be bothered to learn typing!
You've done better wrt explaining historical context, otherwise it wouldn't be worth the effort to chastise.
Forgot to add: when the HHK was designed, it wasn't expected to be used with only one hand! Trying to do FN-ALT-CURSOR when there is a an ALT under your left hand...
The original HHK was meant for the Palm Pilot and other PDA Devices as well PC (mostly laptops) to connect to a "Full Sized Keyboard." It was also sold for around $99 in the USA. I do not know about the HHK II to speak of it, but $199 for a keyboard was ridiculous. At CompUSA at the time one could get a keyboard and mouse for under $50.
the HHKB is the same price back then as it is now.
Just a note to say that "Crusader: No Regret" and "Crusader: No Remorse" (one of which is a game shown in the background featuring the person in the all-encasing red armour) were both absolutely fantastic games. Isometric 3d action-puzzlers accompanied by live-action video cut scenes, "in-universe" paper instruction manuals, and a wonder plot with tonnes of twists that invested you into the wellbeing of the characters.
When I first saw the HHK and its lack of arrow keys I was baffled. I read the story behind the HHK and its inventor and still couldn't figure out its purpose. At least the HHK Lite was introduced which had arrow keys. And its wedge shape made it perfect for literally hacking it to put my C64 DTV into. :D
I have used the KBC Poker for the last 13 years and its awsume. Basically a slight modded version of HHK with cherry keys. Fixes alot if not all the points mentioned here, multiple keys can be remapped by dip switches.
I respect your feelings about cap lock/control (use what works best for you). As a long term emacs user I committed myself to cap=ctrl and haven't looked back. I made sure my insurance covers "emacs claw".
I can't remember the last time I "needed" cap lock. I think my brain automatically goes to echoing the sentence into `/bin/tr "[a-z]" "[A-Z]"` if I need many loud letters outside of a terminal.
None of my friends understand me 🥺
I actually originally said in the video that it was more of an emacs thing than a unix thing in general. But I decided to walk that back while recording because I've never really used emacs (vim), so I'm not sure if that is really fair. Screen uses ctrl+a with other keys a lot as well so it's not just emacs, but I've only ever heard emacs users like yourself still using that layout.
@@TechTangents the craziest thing was when i met a person who changed their terminal input bindings. Ctrl+a like you said is also beginning of line for gnu bash (ctrl+e is end. Etc). He used vim inputs.
It crashed my brain. I had no idea it was even possible. It was like forgetting to walk for a moment when i had to use his terminal momentarily.
Even as a Windows user I much prefer control in the caps position. Caps lock is such a useless key and it's in prime real estate. Maybe I have bigger hands but there's never been a comfort problem for me.
For vim users like me the equivalent is mapping caps to esc.
@@TechTangents Daily I use ctrl+[ for vim (and ctrl+c +d etc) and have ctrl mapped to caps lock. Never have looked back; it's the ideal ctrl position imho.
Edit: just tried and it seems like i naturally end up using my ring finger for ctrl+z. However I seem to use my pinky otherwise. I also end up moving my hands from home row, but I touch type weirdly. Perhaps it's down to the exact layout, size, and typing style?
That said, I can get behind pretty much everything else you said about the layout. Especially about arrow keys; separated inverted t is ideal imho.
My friend in high school had one of those Tandy word processors, and it was nice to use.
so your main grievance is that its linear and quite sensitive, that's exactly what I like about my kb lol
It's always interesting to see how other people type. I noticed you don't use your thumbs for space, and you favor your index finger. Nothing wrong with that, we all become proficient in our own way with our own quirks and style. I typically only use my pinky fingers for shift, tab, delete, or modifier keys, but don't use my pinky fingers for any actual typing, usually.
Same. This made me realise how strange I am in using my thumb for the lower modifiers. They’re next to the space bar so I guess that’s why.
@@kaitlyn__L I do the same thing but only for ALT. I use my pinky for CNTL and have never gotten into the habit of using the Windows/Super key. Also always with my left hand for some reason. I'm also in the habit of using my right thumb to actuate ENTER on the numpad when my right hand is using the mouse. I wonder if anyone has ever tried to codify how to use a Model M layout keyboard or whether the anarchy of personal choice works well enough that no one has bothered.
@@kaitlyn__L you're comment made me realize I do tend to use my thumb for modifiers like command / alt option, but I will pinky for control. hahahah kind of strange, it's something we don't really usually take time to think or reflect on
@@mcbeav …now I’m wondering if I _do_ use my pinky for control and just never noticed
pointer for space is common for someone who doesnt type from home row from someone who used to do it.
The fact that they reduced the size of the board so much, and then left those giant spaces on either edge of the bottom.
I would prefer Vim style arrow keys on hjkl, but since you have to hold that fn key I can see why they didn't do that.
I like the standard Capslock key rebound to Escape, especially in Vim where you use the Escape key a lot. Shift+Caps is the new Capslock. I do use a modern keyboard with a Windows key though, so.
Literally the first thing i do on ANY system is make caps lock into a control key. I HATE that its a caps lock key there, having the control key there makes SO MUCH more sense. I really don't understand how you can consider it being ergonomically inconsiderate?? I have so much more trouble reaching the lower left corner of the keyboard than to hit ctrl than i do to literally just move it one key to the left from A.
Though, I suppose it's a bit different in that I use DVORAK and most of my commands are 2 handed. But even when i'm using QWERTY its hardly the issue you make it out to be.
Also, its so funny that you type exactly like i do, no thumbs involved because LONG FINGERS.
I've been using HHKB for somewhere around half a year and I must say that I really like it. I still can use standard layout on other keyboards. Unfortunatelly laptop layouts are never consistent even when it comes to the same brand. But anyway, I really like the keyboard. I could understand your frustration but, yeah, you have to unlearn some things to start using it with comfort. I don't think you can just "try it" for a week and feel something. It takes more time to learn. A month or two, I think. I am a sortware engineer and I use vim. I get when you said that you started pressing caps lock instead of ctrl on other keyboards. I still hit ctrl+d instead of a down arrow key when I select search result in Google search sometimes. I also accidentally close the tab by hitting ctrl+w instead of ctrl+backspace when I want to delete previous word. Well, this gets much better over time. Thank you for this review. I could also see that you have some really-really good retro stuff.
Hm, I can imagine that the HHK is GREAT for vim users. There you don't need the cursor keys, nor the function keys. I imagine navigation will work quite well using that keyboard.
I've been using a HHKB Pro 2 for years and I'm very happy with it, and you might find it a little better, or tolerable, because it has a Win key.
As for the Ctrl key, I find it great and very pleasant to use in certain games where Ctrl is used for crouching and among other things.
And the switches, I don't know how the HHKB compares to the Pro 2, but Topre switches are excellent I think. Might be worth looking into the Realforce keyboards as well.
The layout I can understand why someone might not like it, especially if you rely on keys where you have to use Fn to access them.
the original has pretty meh membranes compared to the pro2's topres
I once knew someone who had multiple of those ML keyboards, used them for all their daily typing, and even strung a number of extension cables across the room to control their HTPC with one!
You grew up in the Windows era, and thus your "ergonomics" has been defined by Windows keyboard layouts. I grew up in the pre-Windows days, and my "ergonomics" is defined by the keyboards of that era, that is, mainly having the control key beside the "a" key.
I have an early HHK, and I love it. It takes up less space, and has the control key in the correct place. But I have moved on to a wireless keyboard due to my needs, so I use a wireless logitech keyboard/mouse combo. Like many Gen Xers, my first computer was a Apple ][+ system which also had a Z80 card & 80 column card in it so I could run CP/M. The control key was beside the "a" key. My first full screen editor was WordStar, and my first database was dBase II. Back then, most text editors followed the WordStar control+ command format, and that is very good for people who do a lot of writing and editing. For example, Hugo, Aurora and Nebula award winning Science Fiction writer Robert J. Sawyer is also a big fan of the WordStar system. He has managed to get a version of WordStar to run under semi-current WIndows versions. And many professionals in the field still prefer the WordStar control system. A person using WordStar control key based editing can move around their text much much faster than anyone who uses other systems, because if you are touch typist, all your cursor movements and editing command can be accomplished WITHOUT HAVING TO MOVE YOUR FINGERS FROM HOME ROW! I type something in excess of 60 wpm, with bursts up to 100, and not having to more your fingers off home row is *golden*.
Here is a link to Rob's commentary on WordStar:
sfwriter.com/wordstar.htm
It's Unix cred is totally legit. My first Unix experience was on a Sun Workstation running SunOS. From there I went to running Minix, and about 6 months after Linus released his kernel, I started using Linux, and SLS was my first distro. When IBM came out with their model M, many Unix people had ignored it because all "real" unix systems had control keys beside the "a", eg Sun workstations, Apollo, SGI, HP, etc. As Linux became more popular, and we had to use IBM keyboards, one of the first things most people did after installing Liux was remap the keybaord, swapping the Contorl and CapsLock keys. There is even a specific switch in the X11 configuration that does that. With the HHK, you didn't have to do that, as it was one of the few out there that had the control key in the "correct" place. My first action upon installing a new version of Windows or Linux these days is still to remap the keyboard.
They do make a wireless HHKB now take a look at the HYBRID
I imagined a hacking keyboard to have lots of keys, more than a standard 105-key. Don't know why. Maybe as we always see hackers in movies with multiple monitors and large setups.
Control in place of Caps Lock is something Emacs users love. I remapped my Caps Lock to Esc in all my machines.
Very good. I had long lusted after one of these (always slightly worried about the fact they were membrane) but I can now forget about it. I use Cherry MX brown based Filco keyboards (a TenKeyless for my desktop and a Majestouch for travel) and like the tactil feel (liked and had the MX blues also but was almost drummed out of office because of the noise). The best keyboard I've ever had was on a Nascom 2 computer (latee 70's, early 80's). These had a Licon keyboard which has contactless keys (a piece of metal or a magnet moves between two plates when you press the key a pulse is transferred when key is down). Too big to use with a modern PC and to few key (although it does have nice cursor keys). I have toyed with the idea of using an Arduino Leonardo to interface it to a PC (the Leonardo has a proper USB inteface and there is a keyboard library, I used it to add a big media controller to my mates music laptop.
Shelby raises some valid points - price, arrow key layout - but this review is for a long discontinued model and other points are completely irrelevant now, such as the pigtail connector. This review is a little misguided, it doesn’t address that the pigtail connector or underwhelming membrane switches do not apply to the current model, and personal distaste of certain features have thrown off the balance of this review. If you are on the fence or still curious about this highly polarising product, perhaps take this review with a grain of salt and seek other reviews relevant to the currently sold model.
The hate towards the Ctl key surprised me. Since using the HHKB, I did not realise how much I used the Ctrl key, found using my left pinky to operate it effortless and wondered why the bloody Caps Lock key gets such prime real estate on regular keyboards. After a while, I even found using the arrow keys effortless, and after several years of using it everyday, the price really isn’t an issue for something so heavily used and will probably work flawlessly for years to come. Again, not for everyone. If you do a lot of programming and regular touch typing, it might be your jam. If you need stuff like a number pad for accounting or are pretty rigid in your ways, it’s a world of hate.
I agree, I posted a rather long winded comment addressing this review. If we were in 1996, this would be a great review. In 2023, it should have been more "hey, look at this quirky expensive-ass thing from 30yrs ago!" I think a review of this style would have been better when reviewing the current Hybrid models, and he'd have found more to like, and it'd have been more useful to the modern audience. No one, who doesn't already want an original HHKB for some reason, is going to ever come across, let alone buy, a $300 new original membrane HHKB.
i daily drive a custom 40% and layers are so much better when you can make your own. everythings right where i want it
when it comes to currencies like Japanese Yen or Mexican Pesos, it helps to think of the base currency being more like a penny than a dollar. so, 25,000JPY is about the same as $250 if it were on a dollar-system price tag.
I always rebind caps lock to control and that's pretty common for developers on Mac/Linux so I can't agree with you on that one. The layout does seem more mac friendly than most non-specific keyboards. Option and Command are almost always reversed on a modern keyboard that isn't mac specific. I do need proper arrow keys though.
But, NOT the most expensive keyboard ever by a HUGE margin. I'm fairly sure that honor belongs to the Optimus Maximus, at around $2000 in 2007 money. Why the steep price? Each key had a 48x48 pixel 16 bit color OLED screen in it that you could program to show whatever image you wanted, and it was program-sensitive: The keyboard could be set up to change what the screens displayed depending on what program you were using. The key displays were able to display animations at up to 10 frames/second, and could also be used in groups to display mosaic images. This is the only keyboard I've ever seen that requires a separate power supply to operate.
i was very excited to see the cherry ml4100! i picked one up at a goodwill and i've been using this keyboard for about 5 years as my main keyboard. one issue is that the switches can bind at times when pressed at an angle. also the exclusion of a windows key meant that i had to write an ahk script to adjust my usual shortcuts (win + l, win + g). i actually plan on removing the keyboard on my laptop and custom fitting my cherry into it when i have the time. great video and keep up the good work!
there's a windows key version, i had one (not at that point in the video yet, does he say something about this?)
bro.. cherry ml is also super scratchy, binds TERRIBLY, and has too short of a travel
I write embedded software, so I routinely use F-keys with one hand while I'm pressing switches switches or using a logic analyzer with the other. Layers are fine for most keys, but I can't do without dedicated f-keys.
Here I am using an Apple Magic Keyboard, and it’s .... fine.
I feel like I could spend a month each on three or four different keyswitch types and not be able to tell which was which. I often wonder if Cherry Whatever vs Whatever Else is like trying to distinguish wines. “It’s definitely a red.” 😉
:/ Have you tried a geuinley tactile switch, like jwick t1s, alps blue, or something else? Cuz those deffinatley feel different than mx blue, brown, or red. I get what your saying and DO agree, but its beacuse mx brown and red and blue all feel like a mebrane keyboard. But if you have a geuinley tactile switch is going to feel miles different from a apple magic keyboard
I think much of it also has to do with the operating system and programs you use. As someone who is now primarily on a Mac (but was a Windows user for 90% of my life), the HHKB layout makes a ton of sense and it’s been really easy to go between the Macbook Keyboard and HHKB layout.
I always wondered about these HHKs and wanted to try one, but cost prevented me from getting one.
I use a Poker II on my bedroom computer. I would say the layer situation is something to get the hang of, and now seeing how the HHKs layers are setup I appreciate how the Poker II is set up closer to a normal keyboard.
It's funny how mad you got about the position about the CTRL key. I know a few people that get even more mad about the "proper" position of the CTRL key, and they always remap their keyboards to put CTRL where CAPS LOCK usually goes. They claim that the location of the CAPS LOCK key is the _ONLY_ natural and proper place to put a CTRL key on a keyboard.
Another thing to note is it does use the well know Topre switches. That are like regular membrane rubber dome switches except they are capacitive.
Not a fan of the layout but Topre is easily my favourite sounding and feeling switch type out there.
For the record, this original version is *not* Topre. It is a standard rubber dome with weird stems.
@@TechTangents fujitsu dome w/ slider is the kb01 & kb02
@@TechTangents Which sucks, but hey. Point still stands.
@@TechTangents HUH? "standard rubber dome"? I type this reply on a Logitech K400+, i paid 20€ for this and it has a trackpad! I couldn't that as my couch-media keyboard and i have a real keyboard on my desk if i want to touchtype.
My experience with my Razer Huntsman Elite (Linux user here, no synapse) has opened my eyes to "good" switches and i would spend 5€ on a membrane board and refuse to use as daily driver. :D
My first mechanical KB had red Kailhs and they were so light i would find my character strafing off the map if i looked away from screen, good for Monster Hunter especially,
@@woldemunster9244 yeah my first mech also had red switches. and found them a little too "touchy" since then i've switched to black switches and love em.
control is in the better spot, also, you can rebind key on any keyboard in Power Toys if you use windows, even with weird scan codes. I actually stopped reprogramming my own teensy once I migrated to it.
re ctrl.... huh? That's a standard location for the left control key on numerous classic systems and for us emacs users a very common location. I remap caplock to ctrl on 100% of my systems.
Dude just wanted to sneakly show off his collection haha love it mint 64 buy the way
I like keyboards as well :)
What's the keyboard that you showed at the beginning? I am on the lookout for a wireless mechanical keyboard (not clicky, if possible) with F-keys and separate cursor block.
EDIT: Got it, it's a Keychron K8, as mentioned later in the video!
I love a 65% keyboard. It's like that Cherry 75% but collapses the function keys. That's it.
I used one of these from 2001 until around 2015 every day all day. I don't think you are the target audience for this keyboard. Why do I say that? What's an arrow key? I doubt I used an arrow key a dozen times in my life. I had the Dvorak keycap option, as well. I switched from this to a Sun Type 6 USB keyboard which I still use. Lots of extra application specific keys; quite the opposite of the HHKB.
Ahoy, Thanks for the fun video. I never even heard of the HHK before this video. I have the Cherry G84-4100 keyboard (but PC version with Win keys) and love using it. It is my goto keyboard for testing systems. I bought it on eBay over two years ago searching for a white keyboard. I thought I paid too much at $42 but found out they are sought after. Now I am so glad I bought that one. daveyb
I've been an HHK user for more than 10 years but I didn't know the original one was membrane
as was the Lite and other lower end variants
@@profosist The Lite does not make any sense imo... I had it when I was a poor student but the keys were very squishy and nothing was special except the size
@@mizonokuchi029 I mean I don't disagree there I saved one from recycling but that just because I couldn't see it go.
The control and backspace keys on HHKBs have been so much better in my experience that I've mapped every other keyboard I use to work that way. Even my laptop keyboards use the '\ |' key for backspace and the "capslock" key for control
The only time I find the HHKB layout annoying is gaming (using normal CTRL placement for crouching) & base layer arrow keys for easier 1 handed use
oh my god, I recognize the cherry keyboard, my dad had that keyboard as a spare when I was really young (less than 10 years old) and I remember playing with it. I taped it to a box big enough for me to sit in that I had written "time machine" on
I have the Tokyo60 keyboard from Drop. It's a reasonable alternative and is an excellent quality kit.
Whenever I see something like this, I wonder what's the appeal (beyond "Look how small it is, it's so cuuute!"). I do get that some people have little space, but that's far from accounting for their (apparent) popularity. I thought I was just "not getting it", but then pretty much every review that I've seen of any keyboard smaller than TKL mentions compromises that they would rather not have to make.
I like the "HP" layout where you still get the arrow keys and the nav cluster, though it's crushed down to be a single column of keys on the right. I don't feel like I miss any keys then. though my keyboard is F-keyless.
although your cherry keyboard is basically the same
If I had to rely on that keyboard for cut, copy, and paste, I'd find myself using the Fn key as needed plus Shift+Delete or Shift+Insert more often, though Control+Insert would be awkward regardless.
Really great content. I've been using only mechanicals for a few years now. I need a backlit keyboard, personally. I usually have two or more keyboard profiles activated into my OS in order to type in other languages as well as English. I have a hotkey setup, when I push both 'shift' keys together, the keys are switched from English, to the next language in my profile (Hebrew for example) and I've set the "scrolllock' LED to light up when the keyboard's set to a foreign language.
Thanks for the content.
Keep up the good work.
בס״ד
It threw me off every time you mentioned "HHK". My brain was waiting for the missing B 😵💫
As far as layout goes, I wonder how much of this is a chicken/egg situation. Usually, keyboards are designed to be user friendly for common key combinations, but software must have been designed with key bindings that were comfortable to use with whatever keyboard it was intended to be used with. In a world where the Happy Hacking Keyboard was as popular as the IBM Model M, cut, copy, and paste would probably be bound to a more comfortable key combinations. Just a thought, I'll stick with the model M and it's descendants though.
good to know that hobbyist keyboards have always been stupidly expensive
It’s those small production runs baybee
I use Karabiner Elements to map Control to "Return" (when hit in combination with other keys) and Control to Caps lock. Plus I use navigation like in Emacs: Ctrl + N, Ctrl + P (Next, Previous) and Ctrl+A (beginning of line), Ctrl+E (End of line). So I don't miss that. But where I agree with you is "Shift + Arrow" for selecting text is awkward on this device.
I tried switching to a keyboard this small before (with a more standard layout) but the lack of function keys borthered me to no end.
I'll stick with TKL since I don't use numpads anyway.
Wow, you know, I cant really figure out *why* the layout is like that. Usually, a japanese keyboard would have a small spacebar and in its place you would get muhenkan/henkan/eisu/kana, or whatever language input keys they felt they needed. I cant figure out why control is up there and there is no caps lock key, at least in the unix layout. If it was an actual unix layout you could swap ctrl and caps, and I think if it actually had the extra language input keys it would be a bit more versatile. I don't know why you couldnt get those keys to swap though, thats a bummer. Removing keys without even putting them on a layer is a big no no for a non programmable keyboard, imo.
The keys actuating under resting pressure was also insane to me.
The keys right next to the space bar can be flipped between muhenkan and space Fn keys, but I don't know how it works in muhenkan mode though. I'm guessing the OS needs to support it and Kubuntu doesn't. But it was weird, I can read the scan code for the key in linux but was not able to use it for anything. If it didn't have *so many* other compromises I would investigate more for a solution but it is a problem I have no reason to solve for now.
@@TechTangents not sure if you use X11 or Wayland, but those keys are supported on linux. maybe you would have to uncomment ja_JP.UTF-8 in /etc/locale.gen or switch to the jp keyboard layout. I used to use a japanese keyboard on my old thinkpad with fcitx/mozc, however the ime should only be necessary to make them functional, they should still register to the os.
It's that way because HHKB is not just a "Unix" keyboard, it's specifically a Sun Type 4 clone. On a Type 4 there's the Control(not Ctrl) there and Sun ◇ there, and "a real hacker don use the arrows" so those are the reasons for layout choices.
Why so small? Hacking keyboards should be bigger than normal keyboards so 2 people can type on it at once. See NCIS.
You mention a video about the Keychron near the end but I can't find it on either of your channels🤨
i guess no hackers like having a numpad? that's what turns me off most of these niche keyboards. i've also gotten use to having a volume control over the years
Ugh same... I can't tolerate TKL keyboards, I get it the numpad gets in the way for most people, but in my case, having a numepad doesn't bother me for two reasons, first, the fact that I'm left-handed (yup lol) and second, (that one actually is the reason why I have trouble using keyboards smaller than full-size) on the keyboard layout that my country uses we have to use the shift key to use the top number key row, as we normally use it to write down accents and other characters (à, é, è, ~, #, @, &, ^-accented letters and the "tréma" such as ë, ï, ü, ÿ and so on...). Volume control would be nice too but I'm not really using it that much (I just adjust the volume on my speakers), currently using a Dell AT102W, but I'm thinking of switching it out for something else as it tends to lock up if I hold down several keys at once.
I had a netbook at some point that obviously had no num pad, it was... Not too bad but a bit annoying at times, it was one of these netbooks with the "layered numpad" where you have to hold the function key to type numbers, whaddya know this netbook has a "FN LOCK" key that I'd sometimes press by mistake and get confused why it's typing numbers instead of letters.. Fun stuff.
On an unrelated tangeant, my iBook G3's (clamshell, 466SE graphite, one of the last before they switched to the iceBook style as used on the early MacBooks), keyboard is exactly like that too, it has a FN lock key, and the same layered numpad... It ain't easy for me to juggle between Mac and PCs (I'm primarily a PC guy) but I can adapt, just takes me a looong time 🤣
Num row is usually more than enough unless youre doing very number heavy input. Then snag a separate numpad when/if thats needed.
I have one of those Cherry Keyboards. But I think the one I have, while being compressed has the full set including the number pad. The keys have a very nice feel, and it's my go to keyboard for when I need to work with an AT based system and don't have the space for something bigger.
"nice feel" have you tried an actual good mk. Get an alps white keyboard and clean it, then come back to me and tell me its GOOD AT ALL. Cherry ml is a scratchy, bindy switch(but tbf it probably is better than most rubber mush that modern cheap keyboards come with)
@GearsGamer it's not the best keyboard I have. It's certainly one of the better AT keyboards I have, since most of the ones I have are rubber dome.
I'd have suggested doing currency conversion then inflation rather than a comparative conversion since the N64 would have been sold at particular vanity price breakpoints by region, not at converted rates.
Japan's inflation works a bit different than the US and many other developed countries as well.
what a coincidence, Ive been looking at hhk videos and now this gets uploaded
I loved the heck out of the anykey!
I'm looking at an HHKB Lite 2 because of some of the design changes they did, namely adding a squashed (but proper) arrow key set, and you can grab it in the JP layout.
I thoroughly despise smaller keyboards for main, desktop use. I didn't mind one on a netbook, and the Logitech K400+ is alright (I only use it for my Raspberry Pi now).
I'm a fan of nice, big keyboards with extra keys and features. The pervasiveness of tiny keyboards in the custom scene is actually really annoying. Ignoring the fact they're super expensive, AFAIK there isn't a single, solitary custom keyboard base that actually ticks all my feature boxes, features that once a price gets high enough, are absolutely mandatory:
Full layout (glory to the numpad)
Volume dial
Multimedia or macro keys
Wrist rest
and a USB hub is a nice-to-have.
and because ~gamer~, per key RGB lighting (it's great for emphasising per game commonly used key.)
I used to use cheapy multimedia keyboards, Logitech Media Keyboad 600, and a Dell SK-8135, but moved to a Logitech G910 when one went on sale. The only thing that's missing is the USB hub from the Dell board.
I have never seen a full size custom board with a volume dial though.
For me it's full ANSI or bust. I really hate that one company that makes a keyboard that I like in terms of features and layouts, Glorious PC Gaming Race, decided that on their second iteration of the GMMK they will make the "full-size" model some 96% abomination. It would've been a perfect daily driver if not for the fact they've butchered the layout for no real desk space gain. I really, really do not understand people who give up more than just the numpad for the sake of a smaller keyboard. The numpad I can understand, though personally I like to still have it, but trimming it down to just the main section? Why?
my favorite keyboard is one I found on ebay. it's unbranded, but the model number is KU 8933. the form, layout, and keyweight are just perfect. however I keep it with my 98 machine and daily drive a roccat pyro. the keyweight is a little too light for me but otherwise fine, though I could have probably bought a version with different switches from their website, IDK.
I love the TT intro sound so much.
I think as far as the intended audience of this keyboard were concerned, the "direction keys" are H, J, K and L .....
22:39 I've taken apart a Dell Quietkey before, and they are not membrane, though they are rubber dome. They have an individual rubber dome under every single key, just sitting there, which might contribute to the feel. Very annoying to put back together, would not recommend.
Might as well contribute to the control key flame war here. When using Dvorak, you don't really have a reason to reach down to the qwerty keys z, x, c, or v with control as they are ;, q, j, and k. I hadn't really thought about how awful it is to repeatedly type ctrl+c with the Unix ctrl position on qwerty.
Also, it is possible to rebind any modifier (excluding fn and others that don't directly go to the computer) to another with xkb configuration files if you really wanted to go down that rabbit hole.
The alt key issue is only an issue depending on who you are. By that I mean because the keyboard is designed for multi platforms (WIndows/MacOS/Linux) compromises had to be made.
In this specific case, the command (or Apple key as it was known back in the day) is in the correct place on the HHK. This makes Mac users happy, at the cost of making Windows/DOS users like yourself unhappy. It is a compromise the designers of the keyboard made.
Should they have swapped them on one side to cater for both Windows and Mac users?
However the control key is on the wrong place for everyone, both Windows and Mac users. I agree with you, that is a bad design choice.
There is actually space on either side of the option/alt key for a smaller control key. Wasted real estate in for ask me. They should have put the control keys in that currently unused space on the board and then either put caps lock above the left shift like most keyboards or have a second function key above the left shift so you can better one hand things on the left side of the keyboard.
This keyboard feels like reduced physical side just for the sake of it without any thought on how keyboards are actually used in the real world. A week test of the prototype with anyone computer savvy would easily pick up all these issues. Really everything ups picked up is not that complicated. Just basic design flaws with the product.
Man wtf that n64 packaging is so fucking god damn cool and creative and very well designed for what its doing. How the hell did the US not get those or why would anyone in their right mind say, "Hey this isnt gonna sell in the states. We need to make it as dull as possible with a really bad photo of the device. Then it will sell." 😆
I had something similar happen when I was using a Japanese OADG 109A layout keyboard. When I went back to my US layout after the cheap keyboard (not HHKB) malfunctioned, it had gone and tripped me up like I was on LSD for a few days.
I don't know... I still really love my HHKB with its key layout and its Topre switches. Great review BTW
I knew from the first picture I wouldn't be able to use it either. No arrow keys! And then you described the Ctrl, Alt, no (caps) extra shortcut key... with all my AHK macro shortcuts, I would jump out of the window before the end of day 1...
I am a more is better type of guy. I grew up on a C64 and when the Amiga 500 came out I absolutely loved the full size IBM type keyboard. Since that day I could never go back. I could never get into the cut down minimalist keyboards. I like desk hog keyboards. Model M/Unicomp and cherry blue switch keyboards are my favorite of the still being made today keyboards. For classic keyboards I did like the Apple Design keyboard but also the Extended 2 keyboard with Alps switches. My Tandy 1000 TL/2 came with the Tandy Enhanced keyboard which is also amazing to type on.
You might like a modern Matias, they did use the same switches as AEK2 for a long time but then switched to their own clones when Alps ceased production. But they’re really good clones. Just as clicky with the same leaf, but less stem wobble and less spring-ringing as well.
@@kaitlyn__L Cool! Thanks for the note I will for sure check that out as I am needing a new keyboard for my office workstation. thanks! 😀
It's a chyrosran22 video with less swearing and more thought out commentary. Not that I like such overly small and expensive keyboards.
Can you link to the PS/2-USB adapter you showed in the video?
I can remap the command key in Microsoft PowerToys. Not sure why equivalent software on Linux is unable to do it.
As for the kb01 and kb02, their only downside imo is the key switches.
It's a nice keyboard. But I don't care if it's made out of solid gold, there is no justification for that price.
That is a crazy price for the original membrane rubber dome version. Modern HHKB (while still in the ~$300 range), use Topre electro-capacitive switches, have USB-C, Bluetooth, are remappable, and use high quality PBT for the keycaps.
been using HHKB for almost 30 years now and it's still kicking without a single problem. Never had a reason to look at other keyboards.
Even love its key layouts; including Ctrl & Fn buttons. I simply can't switch back to other keyboards due to the Ctrl & Fn key location.
Personally really love this keyboard but gotta say it's not for everyone. a bit of learning curve to overcome and it's geared more toward keyboard oriented tasks; Vim / Emacs / Nano, etc...
If you think using Fn for direction, should try the Vim way of it... LOL
Love small keyboards. I'm a vim lover though so using things like hjkl for arrow keys isn't weird to me.
lol imagine not wanting Control next to A, do you even use screen bro!
If you are interested in a compact layout with function layers, but ones that aren't batshit insane, the Poker 2 is basically perfect (NOTE: the Poker 2 and "New Poker 2" are NOT the same)
sk-6000 ergonomic keyboard p2
computer recognizes the device but it does not work / when I go to the drivers it appears missing. I've already scanned the internet and I can't find it. Could you help me?
I accidentally press my topre switches all the time. It's worth it to me since the ultra-light actuation force doesn't hurt my fingers
edit: i see this isn't the topre version, but just wanted to add my topre opinion and my opinion on keys so light you can accidentally press them
Did you just type a space with not your thumb?
65% or less keyboards are kind of dumb and a little of posse unless you are 100% certain and positive you never ever will have to use them, and you are never certain of that. Specially when you got compact TKL that occupy more or less the same as a 65%.
I have a Dierya K61, which is 65% and it grinds my gears because is the only few ones that use Gateron optical switches, which are the best switches I ever tried but the lack of PFs, del row and arrows just breaks it for me.