Definently agree with it. I'm young, 20 years old, and in this trade my generation benifits to learning both manual and CNC. We catch onto things very easily. I use the forehead on the glass, hand or arm on the machine and feeling it through my feet. But the only way I had figured out what something is suposed to sound like or feel like is from messing up or failing. So I think a great video idea could be showing bad feeds and speeds to be able to know what is happening to the part when you hear a sertain sound. This could be chatter, taking too big of a cut and bogging the spindle down (learn the torque curve of the spindle) and so on. I'd Love to hear the feed back.
Didn't realize it at the time when I first started in machining but yes manual led a huge role when we eventually started to get cnc equipment. I feel for the young guys that have to start out on cnc's with no prior experience
So I’m coming at this from the perspective of a high schooler that is learning CNC using the titan academy. Currently running 6M. Big shout out to the OCTEC AME class. But it’s a two year program. First manual. Second CNC. the reason i like this format is because we have kids that don’t even know how to use a screwdriver their first year. So you teach them what the axis are and the different types of cuts. Than you move them into CNC the next year and now that they know what an endmill is and what a center drill is. At the end of the year they can program crazy parts like the 10M. That’s my opinion. BOOM.
CNC or Hands on approach, manual machining with digital readout big bonus, sharpening of tools & speeds & feeds that's a buzz BUT locking in a tool use a offset let it read a program & watch toolpath, then MAKE a component that's important & able to adjust that tool by + or - one thousand that's the biggest BUZZ, Titan steel runs in ya veins you can have everything else, we just want to make STUFF
I learned enough manual machining in high school to somewhat appreciate what real machinists could do spinning cranks. If I were to be a professional machinist, you bet I'd want my skills to be going where the money and demand were going.
I think manual machines are the perfect way to learn machining, because you are right in there where the action happens and you learn what noises and feelings correspond to what happens with the tool, when you change certain variables. Cnc wins from the manufacturing point if view almost everytime, but as someone who us just starting I think manual machines are the better option.
You know the only thing you feel roughing on a powerful manual machine is the hot and deadly chips flying everywhere. I see no point trying manual, just go to cnc and get to proper cutting right away, something you could never do on a manual machine.
Yeah. Everyone should start on manual machines for a few weeks. If a tool gets bounced off a lathe chuck it's not a big deal and people learn without risking seriously damaging a machine. They can tighten a chuck or vice up too tight and mark a part. Let them get a feel for work holding or fixturing when they actually have to move the cutter around the part and fixture themselves, and risk ploughing a cutter in to something. It's lower stakes when it come to damaging anything when mistakes happen, as mistakes will happen, it's part of learning.
@@potatoking4008 your average cnc has maybe 15hp spindle absolute minimum. No shield will protect you if you have that on manual machine and actually put it in use. My point is manuals are used in a different way and are not in many ways at all useful when teaching cnc.
@@gearloose703 “proper cutting” not possible on a manual machine?? You’ve clearly never spent much time on serious sized manual machines then. As someone who has over 30 years in the trade & approximately even time spent on both manual AND cnc machines I can tell you that BOTH are invaluable experience to the other. No question. Each gives you more awareness of what is going on in the other area & any machinist that has experience with both will be the better for it.
of course, good training also includes operating conventional machines. manual machines make more sense in certain areas of application, because set-up is much faster. as always, you should adapt your machines to the requirements. if i want to process large orders with huge quantities, i go in the direction of maximum automation and the latest cad and cam technology. in switzerland you complete a 4-year apprenticeship as a polymechanic and learn a lot there. since i did my apprenticeship and worked for a very good engineer in prototype construction for another 13 years, i really learned a lot. i like this channel, titan and its employees, but i can't really learn much here, i rather look at the level of knowledge of one of the best american industrialists. why one of the best? because this man seems to really value a good education.
It depends what type of jobs you are doing....on a one off part I can program the geometry on a pro trak by the time a programmer even fires up his cad program on his computer. Cncs don't fit and grind components ....proto trak is a must in a machine shop enviroment
ive been a mould toolmaker for 35 years,cnc was just coming in when i was an apprentice.I learnt the trade on manual machines,now i run a toolroom that is just cnc. where we used to feel the cut,now my ears tell me all i need to know
I agree. We have a 4 yr program that traditionally was 2 yrs manual, 2 yrs CNC. We changed it into a parallel process. We teach CNC primarily but also include manual as a minor skill. This supports the ability for quick ops and possible rework. The entire program is blended. BTW. No placements on manuals for over 15 years now. That's evidence.
2 years is a lot for todays manufacturing. 1 year manual and 3 years CNC is what I would do. Focus on programming correct speeds and feeds and a cam software
during my 4 year apprenticeship to become a cnc machinist, my first 2 years were on manual machines... in Switzerland this is mandatory...it gives you a brief overview and the one-day-a-week school to learn all the theory behind it, really helps to know the hows and whys. l agree, from a company-pov, the quicker the employee can handle a cnc machine, the better. as long as anything goes smooth, no problem. but with machining issues, l saw that l could fix my problems faster and quicker than the other employees who "just" learned on the job...on a cnc machine. l think, one or two month on a manual will pay off in the longrun...
I started life as a toolmaker but quickly realised that technology is the path to competitive manufacturing of components. The skills are complementary, but there is no valid reason that a intelligent machine operator can’t start out on CNC’s in today’s environment.
I learned on manual Machines for 3 years and that was the Time where my passion grew! I'm working in CNC for a Year now, and is emediatly saw the improvement and the further learning, especilly with programming by hand but also with post processors. There are just so many posibilities. Also i think this feeling of the Cut is a good thing to learn on a manual, this also helped me on CNC, im still learning to use my senses there, putting the Hand on the housing and feel the cut, but also using my ears to hear, if cuts are right. Thank you for your work, Titans! I think, you are unsayable important for the Industry any people, who want to learn machining! Greetings from Germany
Yeah I had opportunities to do Manuel and I refused to accept that I needed to train on manuels and I was right. Yes they have similar processes to a certain extent before your limited on Manuel's. Im 30 and started out of blind faith in cnc at 19 and I can honestly say playing on Manuel's serves absolutely no purpose , if you have the choice dont waste your time on Manuel machines. It's not beneficial in comparison. Any good machinist can feel and hear there cnc machines. It isn't a Manuel only thing
I'm 20 yo student from Russia. The father of my friend gave me a chance to enter this sphere a year ago. Now I am a cnc programmer capable to use modern tool, cutting strategies and conditions. Nevertheless, sometimes I come to manual lathe and it is pure enjoy to spin handles, grind tools, measure stock and so on to get a required part. I guess, everybody should try himself at manual machining at first to get general understanding of cut processing, feeds and loads before going up to cnc.
Love your Chanel. I have a sheet-metal fabricating company that I started in my garage 35 years ago. There is no question that a CNC machinist can build a great career without learning the manual Bridgeport. The skill Of Learning manual machining is a dying breed but in my small world is still is necessary. Especially in small shops that don’t do Cnc as their wheelhouse. I’m the only one in my 16 man shop that can walk up to the mill or Lathe and make parts for whatever is needed. Fixtures, jigs, Pressbrake form tooling, etc. it’s just my opinion but someone with manual machine skills can be still essential part of the metalworking industry. Those people are rare to find. Scott
I've gone back to manual after 20 years on CNC, a ton of CNC guys out there, but as the boss man said when he hired me, hard to find a good manual machinist now
With all due respect ! I work at a small machining shop and the thing is both can definitely do the same job but it depends on how many parts you need to make! I personally still prefer manual cause i need to worry less about drawing and programming and i can just get right into that job But if i have more than 3 parts i always go with cnc so everything depends on the job
i went from sweeping the floors 10 years ago to manager because i love the job. you can can hear and feel the machine and tool through sound and the floor. it lets you know what too much and whats not enough. we went from 15 feed on stainless to 200 from your channel. its been so cool to be apart of the change at my shop in idaho.
ABSOLUTELY true, I have been a machinist/toolmaker for close to 40 years and I can say without hesitation that you sir are correct I have been watching you and your channel for awhile and you have impressed the hell out of me!! Your energy and drive remind me of myself when I was younger. Thank you for re-inspiring me to continue learning new things and improving the ones I already know!!
I think it's valid to have a grounding in manual machining, but it's not the be all and end all. Manual machines definitely win for ease of acessibility for some quick one off jobs, but mass production wise they're clearly in the back seat.
@@robbiejames1540 no impossible, but certainly more difficult. Your “funky shapes” when necessary were achieved by copy turning/milling. Cnc machines have certainly made it quicker & easier, but no less possible.
I don't think it is really about feeling the cut, more about learning to setup and understand the principals of operation of each type of machine. No doubt cnc machining is what you need for production, but the basic knowledge is good to learn first.
Running a manual machine first gives you the basics of set up, tool speed and feeds and that hands on approach to the trade. Granted CNC is faster in every way once it is setup, however that person setting it up must have that basic knowledge to make it work. I've seen guys starting out run endmills and drills backwards into parts, snatch things out of the vise and you name it. CNC operator is definitely going make more money, but there will always be a need for the so-called old school "blacksmith machinist" to work on broken effed up stuff. Knowing how fix and machine busted up junk is an art in itself. A guy like that can make good money too. Problem solvers that run manual machines are a dying breed. I know I've done it for years!! Gained a new sub, great channel Titan.
I cut my teeth on manual machining (not literally lol) so I have always said that you need to spend some time on a manual machine to get a feel for the cut and to learn to think about the processes and operations involved and I stand by that. However, once you have done that time, the CNC is the way to go for sure. There is always a place for a manual machine or two in most workshops but to what extent really depends on the type of work you do.
Manual gives you that set up training, and opens your mind to understand CNC. I personally use both, for one part is faster to tool the manual, but roughing is faster on CNC, so if I happen to have the CNC fully tooled I go CNC until I don't. Without the knowledge of manual I would not be able to do. Regards
I can share my experience, I learned machining in France at 16years old, I started for a C.A.P (lathe) & a B.E.P (lathe & milling), it was a 2 years program school and over here we learn manual & CNC almost at the same time. The good thing about manual we can start faster making simple parts, but for something more elaborate it's usually with a CNC. After that, I enrolled a 1st adaptation in order to pass an industrial scientific high school and knowing already machining was a huge help, then I followed an apprenticeship program in order to get a BTS Productique (machining with the level of 2 years university) and I mostly worked with Fanuc CNC back then, I also learned and worked with Siemens & Heindenhain. I finally ended to work with Fidia CNC which is like a Ferrari for tool machine. 20 years ago I had the opportunity to work in design office and the years I spent machining molds are still helping design plastic & composite materials parts. So if you have the choice to learn manual or CNC go for CNC, knowing CNC you'll be able to learn easily and fast the manual in any workshop, and of course you'll make better income with CNC, and thanks for your channel.
0:50 usually climb cutting on a manual machine is no good unless you are doing finish cuts because the table can be moved by the tool because of backlash in the trapezoidal screw.
I'm a German machinist. I will be done with my apprenticeship in Jan. 22. I learned on a manual lathe and mill for about half a year before I moved up to cnc machining. In the beginning its great taking it slow when getting into cnc to understand what the buttons do, what the high end tools are capable of, what kind of strategies to use that obviously differ a lot from manual machining. But the end result is somebody that learns a lot faster than when manual machining simply from the amount of different parts you can make on a cnc compared to the manual. I learned so much more through cnc machining that I absolutely agree with Titan that learning on a CNC is better and makes more money for both sides. But also the learning curve (if you can step up to the challenge) is a lot steeper and therefore faster. I think the way I learned, meaning a short time on the manuals to get a grasp of the basics and then moving to the cnc will give you a lot more flexibility and confidence do be a better employee and also further increase your knowledge and skill as a person in this trade.
As from my experience in CNC - manual machining is obligatory for a person who is *absolutely new* in the trade - but *not for too long*, as You mentioned. 2, even 1 year is too much. At ISCAR (Israeli tool manufacturer) they gave us basics of manual machining within *couple weeks*, and I'm grateful for that - it gives a better understanding of how it all actually works, how to FEEL the cut. Then moving to CNC goes much easier - IMHO!
I'm a manual machinist because I have a passion for it and it's what I love. I'd dive into CNC if I wanted to make more money and do more complex parts, but both have their places. Neither is better than the other in every situation
I feel that it depends on the direction the person is planning to go. I started on manual machines, but the future was CNC. I could have went straight to CNC and applied most of the same principles. To me they are one of the same and they both have there place. My opinion is you can learn one without learning other.
I was a tool & die maker on manual machines such as lathes, milling machines horizontal and vertical, large radial drill press, large and small surface grinders, large plainer, shapher. Using all types of tool steels, ALWAYS do you're own heat treatment and annealing, welding of all types of welders. Also made injection molds. All this just when some cnc machine adaptation of milling machines and lathes were in there infancy. Later I was a machinist for the USAF using all manual machines. Of course we had all the attachments to go with the machines like rotary tables, indexing head and so much more. Tool & cutter grinder that i loved to keep all the cutters sharp and save money. I have worked in job shops and loved it for all the different jobs that came in the door. Never had a dull moment.
AGREE with TITAN. I'm probably one of those few stories who went direct to CNC and happened to be successful. Learning fundamentals like relying on chip load and surface footage recommendations from tool makers and making proper work holding is more important in my opinion. Learn rigidity and how to hold components and tools as rigid as possible. Second learn to program tool paths like a pro, learn how to really utilize what ever CAM software you use and make those tools work efficiently! 9 times out of 10 when I walk into a shop to help them with their setup; their issues ultimately boil down to a couple issues. Incorrect tool selection for the feature being machined and incorrect feeds and speeds. Soooo many shops and businesses don't know what's available and they are severely limited due to this.
10 years in the trade. I program/setup/operate a brand new dmg cmx 50u. Hopefully by june 2022 a dmg dmu 50 0r 65. I started at a high end shop in new mexico. Learned a lot there. The only manual machines they have there are a few manual lathes, drill press, and some grinders. I do not think you need to start on manual machines to get good at cnc. You need to know how to run them. I did take a 1 year program at Central New Mexico Community College. Glad i did. We did about 3 months manual only then went to cnc. It should be said that at the shop in New Mexico I operated multiple machines at first. Got in to programming as soon as possible. I think once you understand how to indicate ANYTHING; angle plates, vices, plate stock on top of blocks, fixtures, sin plates, as well as why, you are on your way. The funny thing is i haven't had to indicate a vice or fixture in manually since the machine i run does it with a probing cycle. I dont think i would be anywhere near as high up in the trade if i didnt start programming and setting up cnc's as early as. I did. I think you will learn faster on a cnc because you will go through more setups. I think the debate nowadays should be, who gets on multuaxis mills and lathes? I think you need to know how to build highly accurate fixtures to rotate parts with pins and tooling balls before you go to multi axis. Some people are just naturally gifted at fixturing. I met an engineer that just got into programming cnc. He was clocking and indexing complicated castings right off the bat. I think base intelligence and creative problem solving are the main factor in how much and how fast you learn. There are so many different tricks to learn from different people, industries, and shops. As long as you understand what a tool should sound like for how aggressive it is cutting and where the line is drawn, starting on manual or not doesn't matter. Some people can do amazing things with manual machines.
The only fear I have is when the technology gets hijacked, we may have to survive for a while in manual mode. Knowing how to machine manually is an art, if you have to fall back on it you should have at least basic skills and knowledge. Beyond that, CNC is definitely the way to go, even for one off parts.
I don't think we can lose the technology. I don't understand what you mean by "hijacked." An apocalypse scenario.... But then what kind of machining we do is the least of our problems. ,😁
@@jamisojo well if our power system breaks down because of a big sunstorm or a EMP, then it isn't an apocalypse like shown in movies but it is bad enough that our entire production lines and everything that needs electrisity in some whay will be useless or destroyed after it happened. on a side note: there is historical evidence that the earth got already hit by a sun storm strong enough to destroy all elektronics a few hundret years ago and it is only a question of time until such a sun storm will hit the earth again.
@@dovos8572 The grid is immune to geomagnetic storms. We have satellites at the L1 point that spend 24 hours a day watching the sun and automatically cataloging geomagnetic events. If a geomagnetic storm strong enough to effect the grid where was on a course to hit earth then the grid is turned off before impact. Geomagnetic storms only effect long conductors like power lines; small electronics will not have a high enough induced current to be damaged. Akso this wouldn't make much sense as being whatever OP was referring to since even manual machines still use electricity and all their motors would be just as dead IF a storm could cause that kind of local damage.
@@nocare I'm not talking about a typical sun storm that happens every so often, but one that is 100 times stronger than them. One that is strong enough that the earth magnetic field gets pushed away completely from the impact side. One that is big enough to engulf the entire earth and not just a local point. th-cam.com/video/tu8DYG9UYTY/w-d-xo.html here is the video about that what I'm talking about.
@@dovos8572 @Devrost Yes I was talking about exactly that level of storm. The grid would take no damage from such a storm. Small electronic devices are completely unaffected. The internet is in danger but only between countries thru undersea cables. And only because the optical boosters need power to amplify the fiber optic signal. The fiber optic cables themselves would be unaffected. land based internet over some areas would also be affected. So its eroniouse to claim that electronic devices would be destroyed or useless as most electronic devices have protections or are too small to be effected in the first place.
As a machinist who learned manually then moved to CNC.. I agree that in this day and age... its probably better for careers and success to move into CNC as soon as possible. What I will say though, is that it would be a shame for a CNC machinist to not experience manual machining. Even if its afterwards. To become the most versatile, complete machinist... in my opinion, you need that experience. It will only make you better. Even if its 95% CNC... 5% manual.
I think you are right, Titan. A trip that someone taught me (when i was manual machinist), is to watch the chips you get from your cut: color thickness and shape, and this is helping me nowadays to well programming,
I don't think you can call yourself a Machinist if you are not accomplished manually. You can run/set-up/program a CNC without that experience, but Machinists make the best CNC operators.
Well, I've learned on a manual mashine and am still on it. I'm happy i started where i did but I'm looking forward to getting my own CNC machine at some point. Although that will take a while, the company i work at actually has need for someone on a manual mill because we only make specialized one off mashines
CNC is great if you want to do complex parts or multiple of the same part but if you need something simple made up to get you out of trouble or if you need to do some repair work, manual is often the way to go. All depends on there situation
I'm finishing the first semester of my machining program. While our hands on time this semester was all on manual machines, our mills in particular have programmable 2-axis controllers, so it's really a hybrid approach where yes you are setting the speed manually, but you program the feed in the controller. Yes you have to set Z manually, but X/Y are all programmed. I really appreciated the closeness to the process that you get with the manual machines, but the school does not force you to stick with it for a large chunk of time before getting into CNC, next semester is all CNC and it just builds from there if you take the 2 year track. I still have the option of graduating with the 1 year certificate or continuing on to the 2 year associates.
Titan, I have nothing but love for the information and experiences you and your team share with the community. It has brought visibility to a trade that is critical to this country and a great career path for many people. I have a bit of a perspective on this, as I spent my youth helping my father in his machine shop, there at every step as it has evolved from manual machining to being focused on moving all of that work to CNC. The challenge I see with starting on CNC machines isn't one of better or worse, but one of focus. When you spend some time on a manual machine, you are a lot more "up close and personal" with the cut. You get a very intimate perspective on the interaction between the cutter and the material, one that isn't masked by a box and gallons of coolant spraying everywhere. This is a focus on the metallurgy and machining process without the parallel distraction of the programming that you get when you start out with a CNC. Can some people put their forehead on the glass or hand on the machine and feel a good cut? Maybe. Can they hear it? Maybe. It strikes me that a deeper understanding of what is going on is captured from more senses, not less. When you start out with CNC, you skip over the sense of feel that you get as you feed that cutter into the material. Your connection to that leadscrew, feeling the pressure is something that you can't duplicate by sensing vibration. They are both critical skills, but one isn't a substitute for the other as you are learning the material science behind what you are machining. I would be very reluctant to skip over manual machining in favor of CNC, just as I think its good for CNC machinists to spend a little time in front of the manual machines every once in a while to fine tune their senses around the entire machining process. Theoretical speeds and feeds are nice, a good sounding/feeling cut is better, but a machinist with well-rounded experience that has felt the difference through as many senses as possible is the key to making the best chips. Just my thoughts on it. Keep up the great and noble work of sharing this trade!
Toolmaker in press tool repair shop and use manual 75% of the time (mill/turn/grind). I honestly learned more about how to cut metal propperly from cnc than kicking around on the manuals. 'feeling the cut' is just a way to not break something when not cutting correctly.
Well after being io onn the trade for 8 years, the first 6 almost exclusively in manual I find that my intuition about what is going on inside the cnc machine is greater than the guys who only did cnc. The fact is a CNC is actually a manual machine in a cabinet controlled by a computer.
To hear you say it and explain it, I totally agree. But my experience just hasn’t lined up with that. I wish it did! Of the people that have come in and out of our shops over the years, those with some manual experience seem to make better machinists. I don’t think it has so much to do with feel or sound, as developing your thought processes in an environment that is much slower paced and with more pauses and vision; and then being able to scale that up to the CNC machines. I think that the problem now is that trade schools are compressing their curriculum in general, so manual stuff is getting squeezed out altogether, and basic CNC stuff is starting to go with it.
I designed and programmed an 11 axis ultrasonic welding machine 24 years ago, run it to this day.. Competitors (national labs) cannot duplicate what I did two decades ago...yet. I now learn a mill and lathe, watching vids like yours. (I am an EE expanding my hobbies, ready to retire.) You are one of my go to sources...thank you. I waffle between learning manual machining and starting just on the CNC. Your vid is very good and convincing. Using your senses to feel how the cnc is working is the future. Nice work John
I had 30 years as a press toolmaker here in the UK and the bridgeport turret mill was the best ever and when the digital readout came on the scene it was a marvel . I then went on to fanuc wire erosion machines then Hiddenhain cnc milling machines . I retired in January 2021 and decided to build a bench cnc mill capable of milling steel which is now 2 thirds complete and will chase some work for it when complete . I avidly watch your video,s and comend you for the power you put into maching i have never seen such large cuts well done you guys
I'd suggest every machinist watching your videos will agree, you have to start as a manual machinist before moving to CNC, you just cannot miss that learning step of turning handles on lathes and mills. I'm a time served toolmaker, apprentice to skilled man taking four years, yeh I get that your workers have to make your money, but if they haven't the machining grounding then they'll make expensive mistakes............and it's not fair on the operator because he/she won't have fun.
I'm not a machinist, but a woodworker. Its kinda like how even though we have had power tools for a long long time it's still good to learn how the hand tools work. If nothing else, it allows you to appreciate the modern equivalents. It gives you context for how the modern tools work and gives people respect and appreciation for the trade and how it has evolved.
Titan, you really struck a chord with me on this one. I worked a job that fell exactly into the same trap you mentioned here in this video. My first job as a CNC operator was at a family owned business. I loved the job and the environment initially, but the pace at which they were letting me progress was 1/100th of what I felt I could achieve. I was stuck as an operator, even though I had showcased my talent and schooling by doing some manual work for them. On top of that, I had heard from most employees that they usually endured 1-2 *years* as a manual machinist before even being allowed to train for setup work on CNC machines. My performance tanked and they sacked me, and to be frank: I came out better in that instance. Less than 7 months later I'm at a job that's paying me over twice as much, with better benefits, a better lifestyle, and a better career outlook. I came out better because I believed in myself and so I moved around. I took positions of greater importance at different companies, taking in everything I could at a rapid pace, and I became the machinist that I thought I could be in 5 years at my first job, all in 5 months. If I was still at my first job, they'd be forcing me to menial manual work for terrible pay and terrible benefits, and I would still be dissatisfied with my work. I have had nothing but praises on my CNC work after leaving my first job and I am constantly regarded by my coworkers and higher ups as an incredibly fast learner. Make sure you always evaluate yourself and your skills because you are worth way more than what your first job says you're worth.
I agree with you totally 100% I started off straight to CNC and I did the same thing as you stated I listened I felt the vibration which allowed me to understand more about the feeds and speeds. Now the I have 18 years of CNC operation, setup and programing under my belt I can feel the part more when I'm running a manual lathe. Thank you Titan for all your knowledge that you share with the rest of us
I love manual machines and I still run manual machines from time to time but i think manual is where to start and then you will be better when you get to CNC because you understand the cut and how it should feel and sound like.
I respect the manual guys a lot. They are the program. Working on triple offset butterflies to cutting in compound angles to picking up threads. It is like you said Titan, its art.
Hello Titan I started Manuel machining in 1974 and I consider myself a Complete Manuel Machinist. Turning , Milling, Surface Grinding, Broaching etc. That being said I started my own machine shop in 1982, I started with Manuel machines, Lathes, mills , Horizontal Boring mills, surface Grinders etc. Purchased my first CNC machine in 1998. It was a Haas VF3. What I think is that with my previous Manuel Machining skills it made programming way easier for Me. I just tried my best to program my CNC machines to do what I would do manually. The Point is , I knew how to attack the part. Now here it is 2021 and I have had ups and downs but I Love My CNC machines and I can Run several of them "By Myself "at once. I do Not own a Manuel machine anymore. Although I may buy a lathe or mill down the road. I believe all machinists are necessary and very Important. In My Humble Opinion for a "1 off" reasonably simple part I can probably make it less expensive manually, but if The Customer needs 3 or 4 I can usually Setup, Program and machine those with CNC faster than manually. I Love it ALL
Love this topic. So I did 6 months in the manual machine section of the workshop. This gave me the fundamentals of understanding how the different axis work and how to tackle problems. After the first six months then I moved over to CNC. Starting out on a C axis lathe. I worked my way up to the mills and start on a 3 axis mill. After a year or so I got to work on the 5 axis mill. From then to now I have been running 4 and axis mills and also Miltruns. I think that if you are new to machining you still need a little time on manual machines so that you know what is going on and how it all work. It is easier to correct your mistakes in your method of machining on manual then on CNC.
Hey Titan, How do you feel about retrofitted Manual machines? They don't use G&M Codes(well some do, mine doesn't), they're much more conversational in their programing. Ive been on a retrofitted manual mill for about 9 months now, and Ive gotten a lot of great experience in feeling the cut, but since I've been on it, I've gotten really rusty on my G&M codes. could this be a detriment to me moving over to a CNC, and how do i talk to my boss about moving me to a CNC when i haven't had any experience on one since i got out of my 2 year college program?
Great conversation. I wouldn't feel comfortable touching a CNC if I didn't have some time on the Bridgeport first. Definitely think one would need manual machining or small desktop router experience before ever touching a real CNC. Similarly, you need know to weld before you can program a welding robot.
I started working as a machinist on 30 years old lathe machine vdf boehringer in one croatian company called HStec. I was considered to first learn manual machining for some 6 months and then transfer to the cnc lathe. That cnc machine broke down before I started to learn there and eventually I stayed for some 14 months in total working on same two manual lathes. That was the best experience and knowledge I got while doing machining. Manual isn't about doing brand new parts. Those days are over,cnc rule the world now. BUT fixing used parts, damaged threads, extremely "sensitive" parts, all kind of improvising how to save some part... Manual machine is still excellent for that. Keep up the good work Titan, you have a right attitude for this job, I wish I was working at your company back then. Toni
I came into Cnc machining with no experience. Learned on Cnc, and got decent at operating, setting up, taking tests cuts, paying attention to the load, vibration, chip color, etc. Then I learned on a manual and loved how much control I had in the outcome of my part.. I didn’t have to guess as much, but it helped me have an understand of how to process a part better. I’ve only been on the trade now for 3.5 years, but I’ve come a long way. I’m now a supervisor/ programmer, and it’s funny that I find myself feeling the machine, putting my ear to it, stopping and starting coolant so I can see clearances, watching my load percentages. Always trying to stay one step ahead of the outcomes of whatever you are making. A lot of getting a feel for your machine and building confidence is very important In this trade.
I started on CNC machines. I found this informed me on how to think how a CNC would machine the part. This helped in setups and machining on manual machines. It is especially true on lathes. Speeds and feeds are critical and CNC teaches this lesson in a hurry.
For learning starting on manual for a semester or 2 is good. It teaches you about order of operations, it helps visualize how the part will take shape, and gives you a better idea of tool selection. But then you need to move on to setting up and running CNC, then editing programs at the control, and last I would put cad/cam. Being able to run a machine will get you a job, being able to edit/hand jam a program and cad/cam help you move up. I'm lucky now in that I just get handed a print and choose what machines, what order, and what tooling to use.
Long ago when I started my Company I needed to do machining to make robots. Bought a used Bridgeport Boss 1 CNC. Learned G code, wrote a graphics editor, code compiler and bought ENCO tooling. It was great but I bought a ENCO knee mill and getting stock square was real easy or adjusting a few thou made life nicer. I want to thank a trade school guy for a Saturday well spent. In 8 hours he taught me to square a stock, make turned parts and do surface grinding and carry a shop rag in my back pocket. It cost me 100 dollars, lunch and a beer. I am sure he is heaven and still thank him for that life changing day. All the programming is great but feeling a 500 rpm .5 Endmill chomping through Tool steel wobbling the feed handle in your hands was a great moment.
When I was going to get into machining I had one year of industrial workshop(manual machining, welding and some other use full skills) then a year of cnc machining I think that the manual machining helped in the cnc class the next year and as it turned out I didn’t go into machining I went into marine engineering and I have no use at all for cnc machining but manual machining sure do so I think that knowing how to use one is good knowing how to use both is great since you don’t always know where life’s going to take you
I am a manual only shop. I love manual machines. I have worked in both, and never cared for the CNC side of the industry. I don't run large quantities, and never wanted to. But to say you can make more money on CNC is false. The work I do is high dollar stuff and most of it was being done by CNC shops before I started doing it. I also have a lot of customers who are CNC shops that send me work that is low volume and not a good fit for them. Very profitable and enjoyable work for me. The one shop told me the worst thing they ever did was go full CNC about 10 years ago. If the need ever came up in my shop to get a CNC, I have no problem going that route. We all have different customers, needs, and niches we work within. They both have their place and are both very profitable. You need to know your market and what you want to become in the industry.
Great video. I'm a manual guy at my shop and wouldn't want it any other way. That being said, I have mad respect for the CNC guys because they have so much more preliminary things to do before starting a job, not to mention their setups must be near perfect the first time whereas we can sort of fiddle with it on the fly. For the stuff we do at our shop, CNC is the most used but we run a decent amount of production on the manuals since it sometimes makes more sense. Manual has a place and always will, but CNC is definitely the way to go for most production.
I started manual machining when I was 11 years old in my dad's garage using a colchester knockoff and i LOVED it. 36 now, robotics engineer, using a manual is my spare time therapy, however CNC opens up a whole new world of possibilities for parts and that's what makes it exciting for me.
I would say that it's best to start with manual machining because of the necessity for attention to detail and that the cost of mistakes is much lower. Forgetting a decimal on a manual machine doesn't cause a crash while on the other hand you can damage a CNC machine with a perfect program started from the wrong offset. It's not about the machine it's about training the machinist to be meticulous.
I like manual machines. although i never wrote a single line of code for a cnc machine (second year trainee as a tool mechanic), it honestly seems boring and scary to learn, like driving a car for the first time. I can appreciate cnc machinists for their dedication in working smarter than harder, but i can't imagine myself doing it
I felt the same as an apprentice, but as you learn to appreciate what cnc machines can do its very possible you'll never go back to a manual machine again
tbh for becoming a CNC machinist you won't have to write lines of code, usually there is CAM software that does the job for you. Then it's more a matter of planning the machining operations, figuring out what methods to use when and where and what parameters to put. But the actual code will be generated by the program, you might only have to deal with it for troubleshooting.
Ha! You would become way more comfortable than you think with it very quickly. It seems intimidating at first but once you realize the machine still doesn't do anything you don't tell it to, you start getting adventurous.
I started manual mill and surface grinder. I am almost one year into apprenticeship. Cnc surface grinders are a little different but you can still get the feel for the machine. I think you always need manual machines in a shop in case. Cnc surface grinders are very good for flat and square grinding and sometimes angles by using a sine plate, but we can not change the wheel as easy as on a small manual surface grinder. You can make a form grinding wheel for a small grinder, easier.
I personally think now days they are two separate beasts, in the early days of CNC you had to do all the work. programming by hand, so knowing how to take a cut was essential and manual machining taught you these skills. But now with the power of the beast machines that you guys show and the tooling and a good CAM program there is very little comparison, between the two discipline
I’m an engineering student and a machining novice if that, but in my first cnc class we had to hand calculate the toolpaths, feeds and speeds,MRR, etc, and hand write Gcode before we even opened any cam software. Glad I am able to look at gcode and have an understanding of what is happening, but agree that nowadays manual vs cnc are two completely different things
Yeah, some of the first "CNC" type machines I saw were run off a punch tape. When I did my apprenticeship in a toolroom they were just bringing in CNC (bought a mill to do one specific job and a lathe for learning and the occasional job), you could always tell when they were having an off day with the lathe, the belts would screech when the chuck locked up after running the tool into it. LOL The mill that was bought for a specific job was hit and miss - I remember having to ream 2/10ths out of 1000 holes in plenty of plates because they stuffed it up on the CNC. I could see it was the way of the future so I decided to concentrate on the fitting side of the trade - I wasn't real keen on sitting in the office writing out programs most of the time. I guess it has gotten a lot easier now. One good thing about doing a lot of manual machining is you never forget how to do it, I can still produce accurate stuff even after many years away from the machines.
You are so correct. I started learning manual machining in two weeks of summer school between my 6th grade and 7th grade year then every summer I took the same 2 week machine trades class until I was a junior in high school when I took machine trades for 2 years and graduated with a 2 year certificate. That was more than 40 years ago. Almost my entire working career has been in manual machining. I just never got the opportunity to learn CNC and so I could never understand how a CNC machinist could be a real machinist until recently I had a job opportunity where they hired me for my manual skills and asked if I would be willing to learn conversational CNC so I could do both, and I was absolutely thrilled. I learned how much capability there is to produce very complex and accurate parts quickly, in CNC. Also, what I always had understood as some basic fundamental rules of machining that could not be broken have mostly been thrown out the window when you move into the CNC realm. I even started to feel like I was becoming a relic in manual machining except there is still that place where manuals fit well. It just isn't as wide a place anymore. My short time working in CNC was amazing. I learned a lot, made some interesting parts, and wish I could have continued learning and gaining more experience in the CNC arena. You said it the best it can be said. To compete, locally, nationally, globally, CNC machining is the only way that will happen. The best paying machinist jobs are in CNC. Add to that, if you can do the programming, you're going to have the opportunity to make more money. I tip my hat to ALL CNC machinists who are making this country great! Thank you Titan for your passion and all you are doing for this trade and country. Who knows what the next 100 years has in store!
As someone that has only ever done manual machining but is interested in getting into cnc. I think I have learned many valuable lessons with manual machining that I wouldn't want to have to learn with CNC machining,such as workholding and tool life. I've had crashes that might have nearly totalled a CNC lathe but only required minor repairs on a manual lathe for instance.
I started on manuals in high school in 2001. I took that 4 years exp and went to a certificate program at my local community college which provided the base for g code and CAD. The toolmaker program was heavy on manual machining. I was hired at a CNC shop at the end of that year and have been there for going on 17 years.
Im brand new into this trade working for a manufacturing company who produces very large pieces mainly for the mining industry, Ive picked up the You Ji 1000 +ATC in a couple of days and was running the parts independently with trainer verifying test cut measurements and final ID,OD, depth and threads. The company seems to produce machine operators instead of full machinists. What should I try to learn to maximize my value? Should I just learn whatever is in front of me? When should I ask for more complicated ops?
I got a crash course into machining running a massive vertical lathe. Never been in the trade prior to that. But I had an understanding of math and asked at least a million questions at to how it operates and what to watch for. I learned that machine would react and how it should sound and feel when everything is running correctly. It took me a few years to actual learn the concepts of what I was doing sometimes but to me it all comes down to who is teaching you and how much are you actually trying to understand. I went on to run 5 axis mills after and it was a little weird at first but knowing what you’re reading on the control and being able to look at the spindle itself and know what it’s going to do when you single block each line is just as important as being able to do it by hand on a manual machine.
Started with manual machines at school and after I got an apprenticeship as a cnc operator. When I saw how these machines could move, the efficiency and all that, I felt that my imagination was the limit. Still to this day, I run a Doosan 3100XLY, and I can certainly feel the cut by ear, feet and hands, not only on my machine but the machine beside my machine as well. Manual machinists deserves all the respect possible, but I won't ever assume that a guy that has only run CNC's is lesser skilled in any way. The difference, in my opinion, is how much you love the trade and how much you want to learn. And that goes for everything
I ran manual mills for several years before running a CNC mill and I definitely learned a lot and there are still a few times where it’s quicker for me to mill something or a feature manually rather than programming it. But I do think learning CNC out of the gate is the best way because, if you have a great teacher or a strong desire to learn and grow you’ll be so much more valuable quicker than if you learned on a manual. In these days, most people are familiar with computers and technology and using those familiarities can help speed up the learning curve for people who haven’t ran a CNC. Starting on CNC will help challenge yourself and push you to be a greater machinist if you study and work at it, learning from your mistakes and other people’s mistakes will help you be the best you can be. Your limit is your imagination in CNC machining and manufacturing. I love this trade!
Ok, to bring my experience into context here: I started in the 80s with pure manual machining and learned CNC machining in the early 90s in Germany. "Feeling the cut" on both types of machines is different as you pointed out in the video and I would add, not only feeling matters, also listening. With manual machining you also learn the resistances of the different materials, when you crank through it and THIS is very important, because you learn the limits quite fast and when it feels "wrong". You also learn, when the drill bit or end mill starts to "bow" on it's path (does that makes sense for you?) . You can do that with a handwheel of a CNC as well, but it's different and you don't get the same response, so that is more for the already experienced machinists. In current times, manual machining is a good addition to learn and get a better feelings of all the materials you cut and this gives you a better understanding how to push the limits on a CNC Teaching new employees in a CNC shop, especially the unexperienced, you take what you have to give them experience. And it's always good to experience cutting with "all your senses", not only with your eyes
Pulling a proper chip is where manual machines shine in learning. I started in deburr where you pull small chips by hand. Learning to understand how to get ahold of the part and rigidity in harmony with taking a proper chip is the ticket. It can be done via cncs but I think the respect and power of the machine and their true cutting potential is greatly appreciated when you graduate from manual machining to cncs.
I have defiantly benefited from my manual experience in setup. How far can a part be machined unsupported? what is the best tool to use for what application? For an operator, how to tell when your tool needs changed (before it makes a scrap part or explodes ). Yes you will learn this cnc machining at a higher cost, given feed and speed rates are so much higher. I had an apprentice, a few years back, that had issues with work holding(how tight is too tight or loose in a vice etc) . With 20 yrs as a manual machinist first, and now 4 years cnc machining, I don't see both types as the same job, for example; as a manual machinist your job is setup/ operate/ and design (either on cad or a sketch). It used to be, in a cnc shop (i worked in a cnc shop before i worked for a manual job shop circa 1997) You had a programmer/ setup person, and an operator. So now in 2021, has the operator taken on the setup/programmer job or are these still separate people?
I started on a drill press with an x-y table because it was the first thing available to me. Bought an old Bridgeport years later then a CNC machine shortly after. The best tool you have to learn on is the one you have access to right now. If I had access to a CNC shop at the time I would have gone straight into it.
Surface Grinders, OD/ID Grinders, Jig Grinders, Shapers, Key Seaters, Honing Machines, Horizontal Boring Mill, Horizontal and Vertical Mills, Layout and Inspection, Press Work, Welding: Stick TIG and MIG, not to mention Turret and Engine Lathes of various sizes! All manual machines I was required to learn and run as a requirement to fulfill a 4 yr. "On the Job" Tool and Die Maker apprenticeship, long before I later had the opportunity to eventually learn CNC on a Mazak Quick Turn 10" back in the eighties. I believe these different machine shop challenges were all necessary to build my confidence up enough to tackle a CNC machine which at the time, were exotic and mysterious, back when most people did not even own a personal computer!
As a tradesman and precision machine shop owner with over 40 years experience in machining all types of parts on lathes, mills, grinders, ect, I tend to agree with your statement regarding "jumping straight into CNC". Like most tradesman in my age range, I learned on manual machines. While its great to know that I can calculate the gear train for a helical cut, or that I can set up a universal mill to perform such a cut, the reality is that I have not needed to do this for 30+ years. Performing tasks like this on 4 axis machines is so quick and easy, it seems to renders many of the old ways obsolete. I tend to think that the sooner a new user jumps into CNC, the better. You are absolutely correct when you say that the "feel" obtained when using a manual machine is obtainable in most cases when using a CNC machine. CNC machines "talk" to the operator in much the same way as a manual machine, all be it using slightly different senses. Perhaps the only potential downside I see to learning on a CNC is the potential damage a new user can do in the event of a crash. A manual machine might give a little more warning when things are about to go wrong. This however is only true in the case of small manual machines. As anyone who has machined parts on big machines can appreciate, when the shit hits the fan on a BIG manual machine, it splatters just as bad as any CNC crash. I guess the moral to this lesson is, learn to double check before hitting cycle start. These videos you create are incredible. Not only do they provide helpful instruction to people wanting to learn new skills, you provide the motivation and guidance necessary for people to explore this great trade in the first place. Excellent work!!!
you know lately ive been pushing my rong fu rf30 manual to its limits because of what you have said in previous videos.. and recently i hit its limit when i pushed a 16mm carbide roughing mill into a 8mm depth of cut through the whole flute length (DRY).. i actually had to ease off as i was about to stall the motor but rigidity wise it was actually fine with min vibration and it was rather quiet.. honestly every time ive crashed the mill i learn why as ive lost a few carbide end mills due to rigidity issues.. you can really feel the limits of a machine through vibration on a manual mill. Ive never tried a cnc mill but i can really see the value in them and the stupid speeds you can machine something on them. but thankyou for giving me the confidence to push my machine harder as it has speed up projects in my small workshop that needs a part to be made as i normally make parts from scrap or cut offs from welding jobs etc.. so i do alot of roughing before i smooth it all out
For mass production, it has to be CNC. Complex or compound shapes, CNC. But, for reparing damage, repairing existing threads, fitting parts, only possible using manual lathes & mills.
I'm currently doing my machinist apprenticeship in Germany. I was doing manual milling, turning and sawing/filing for the first 5 months and then got into CNC programming. I thought that was a nice progression. I know there are others that spend even more time doing manual sawing, filing, drilling and tapping before coming to a mill or lathe. I think that is ridiculous. It is great to see what you can do with your own hands and simple tools. Then going to a manual mill and seeing the ease with which you can do the same things, just much faster and more efficiently. And you really get to see how the machine operates and wants to move and good strategies. And then when that is ingrained to a certain extend, you go CNC and make the jump to thinking about repeatability, speed, chipload, exact speeds and feeds. Going straight to a CNC would be a mistake, since they are so black box at first. You aren't in the thick of it, you don't see a lot of the machine since it's all hidden away for safety and longevity. And some things are just much easier done on a manual setup vs. a CNC setup, especially in small runs and one offs. But overall, manual should be a stepping off point, not its own long thing.
Not a machinist, but I hear you passion; I understand your point of view. If the world could have more teachers and instructors like you, the world would be a better place!
I started my machining career in 9th grade 1975 Portage Northern High School,Michigan. Vocational machine shop 2 years. 1981-85 Navy USS Forrestal machine shop 4 years.etc. I think you just need the fundamentals of machining and you'll feel the CNC,look at the load meters,know the sounds of the spindle,table,etc. Fundamentals are what you need.
Personally I used manual turning as a gateway into machining. I learnt from some truly amazing lads and I’m so grateful. I spent a good year and a half on a manual lathe and made my mark in the shop and proved I understood the process. I knew why tools were struggling and how to fix it because I could feel the cut and when I applied myself to CNC machining, I was so grateful for the manual machining experience when I started using the machines. I’m now a time served machinist in both manual and CNC on both lathes and mills and I truly think I’ve benefited from my start point. HOWEVER! If there are no manual machines in a shop it doesn’t mean that you can’t train to be a great CNC machinist! :)
Hard to say, either are good options in todays age ! I started as manual, there still is a lot of manufacturing jobs that are IMPOSSIBLE on cnc, for examples machining a 30ft long shaft, there is a lot more manuals out there for large equipment like that, planer mills.. etc
Hey Titan, love your attitude and the quality of videos you and your team release. I am by no means a machinst but I do have a few years of running a manual lathe and mill and I want to learn CNC but don't have access to a machine. But I do believe learning manually has taught me a lot about how tools look and how effective they are at work. Your videos helped a lot on some of these last little projects my job has me doing Thank you for your education!
My community College program had us on manual machines for half a semester(6 Months?). And second semester move onto cnc & all that came with learning it. I do appreciate starting on a manual machine. As personally I felt it gives a confidence boost in knowing that you can do it by hand already,we also learned how to read blueprints & measurements so again your hands on learning where if you had to learn programming +CAD software+ blueprint & terms such as facing,debut, knurl. Might be a bit much and now in cnc your letting the machine do the work and now you know what to expect of the finished part.
I love metalworking, it is my first true love of life. In High School I took metal shop, had to fight the guidance counselor on that one because he wanted me to take extra math classes. In college I got a job in a campus machine shop (all manual) and loved it, learning everything I can. I got out of college in the 90's, and went knocking on every door I could find - every machine shop, especially anyone with a CNC machine. Not one of those shops would give me the time of day - they would only talk to someone that already has CNC experience. Every door slammed shut in my face. So my career has been limited to manual-only. I eventually got my hands on a Sherline CNC that I could putter with at home and learned a few things there, nothing especially applicable to a production shop. But to answer your question - we have 5 senses, and they all play a part in learning what's going on behind the cut. Manual is one path to learn, but not the only one. The modern displays show parameters of HP percentage and the like, not unlike driving a vehicle whether it's a car or a bulldozer. You can learn to drive regardless! Also, Isolation between the machinist and the cut will go a long way to improving everyone's long-term health so expect there to be a constant shift in that direction.
I think it depends in what an individual plans to do. Relocate to find a modern manufacturing job? Stay put in a small town keeping old machinery in the area operating? Adding to a fabricating skillset? Hobby? Short run or one-off parts? Huge contracts? The wider your base of knowlege, the better stability you have as you rise.
I started on manual machines, was on manual machines for about 5 years also. Then the shop got two ez-tracks and one ez-path. Then it just went mainly cnc. We still use the manual machines to do things ones the cnc’s are up and going. Square a few blocks as the cnc’s are running or simple quick things on them. The machine centers and turn centers run almost 24/7 running parts. It pays the bills and put smiles on all our faces. It’s crazy how the news guys come and watch you do things on manual machines it use to be the opposite.
I teach at a trade school, our program is not a two year college based course, it's a six month accelerated program. We do teach conventional mills and lathes and CNC. I do agree that manual machines are being phased out. Touching the body of the machine to feel the tool is something you as a experienced machinist need to master, but sound is also just as important, listening to pitch changes can tell you a lot along with touch. What I see in the future is CNC machining augmented with 3D printing.
I did manual first 25 years ago, today... who honestly does production on a manual? Principals are academic and can be applied in infinite unique ways. My 17 year old son just finished building his 1 meter square 3-axis router. We will power it up Monday morning and he will get his first introduction to cnc machining having never in his life drilled a hole.
CNC is clearly the way when it comes to production these days, no doubt. But there are still a large quantity of large manual tooling machines out there in the industry, many are decades old. They are often the #1 choice when it comes to custom jobs, 1 off, repair and maintenence, which there still is a high demand for.
@@Rimrock300 I agree, I often find myself at a manual for repair and one off jobs but it is not required to learn the trade. New upcoming machinist will spend most of thier time on a CNC of some sort in a "production" environment. Every manual machine can be used as CNC with modification but not the other way around. Teaching The fundamentals with emphasis on CNC won't limit a student from operating a manual.
Manual machining is a great stepping stone to understanding the CNC... to know what is happening a slow rate, then using a computer program to speed up where possible is a skill in efficiency
I was lucky enough to to start in 1984 in a proto-type shop, all manual lathes, grinders, die sinker edm and mills. Got Red Seals in both machinist and tool and die maker. Learned cnc very very well on the job with Pratt & Whitney Canada during the 12(1989-2001) years i spent there as a manufacturing engineer and tooling designer. Schools have gone retarded with down playing manual machining. The core skills you attain whist doing your entire apprenticeship with a Croatian tool and die maker then add cnc everything you need to produce jet engines....kinda makes me a hotrod in these trades.
I'm a college student in Serbia and simultaneously I work for a "small" cnc shop that has 5 cnc machines and 2 manuals. I was put on a cnc on my day one and all I knew is to press a button and change the parts. Two months later I'm setting up one machine and operating the second one at the same time all thanks to my colleague thats a 2 years older than me and a great teacher. As for the manual machines we only use them for roughing material to set em up for cnc. I'm now working there for 5 months and already learning programming the machines as well as clearing all my college exams. Manuals didn't help me much if at all to learn the fundamentals, for me cnc is definitely the future and I know few years from now I will be a great machinist. It's not easy and it takes great dedication but definitely worth it.
i'm a student learning about machining, i started two years ago on cnc lathes, and because our equipment isn't very good, i never really felt like manual was as fast or precise as i wanted. last year my friend and i started working with a haas mini mill, and ever since, i've used the thing nearly every day. CNC is simply the way to go. you get to decide with immense precision what your width and depth of cut are. you get to decide your feed rate. on a manual mill, these things are much more difficult.
I started in manual machining and worked up to CNC then programming. I have worked in all the different industries and held the tightest of tolerances. I truly believe that it depends on the employee you want to make. If you start someone off in CNC or even programming they have no idea what the difference is between a climb cut or conventional cut or the reason of why or when to use them. I think they need to walk before they run by starting with manual machining. I also think there will always be a place for manual machines in shops for quick simple operations. Now if your goal is to make a push button operator that just changes out parts all day then go ahead and start them on a CNC. They may be able to learn as much as a manual machinist but the learning process is stacked against them. Its like starting a book in the middle.
I swear, the feeling it in your feet is something that I understand in my soul. I mainly rely on sound and feeling it all in my chest though. At earlier shops in my journey, they worked us hard and they programmed bad. You could tell the difference between a sharp edge on an apk insert and when it starts to dull before it breaks by the pitch of the cutter, and how it would eventually sound like a motorcycle engine. Same with drills. If the squeal hit a certain pitch, you knew to feed hold, reset and slowly back off Z fast or you would get drilled by the supervisor who had never ran a machine in his life. You had to unless you wanted a difficult time. Sound is huge. Running 4 and 5 axis it's much more important than sight. I more use sight to inspect a part after for signs of tool wear, or more commonly, as a quick way to find which tool cuts which feature, and how, when we're OOS.
*VERY IMPORTANT
Love to Hear your Opinion, BUT… Please, Don’t give your thoughts until you have watched the entire video and have context.
Definently agree with it. I'm young, 20 years old, and in this trade my generation benifits to learning both manual and CNC. We catch onto things very easily. I use the forehead on the glass, hand or arm on the machine and feeling it through my feet. But the only way I had figured out what something is suposed to sound like or feel like is from messing up or failing. So I think a great video idea could be showing bad feeds and speeds to be able to know what is happening to the part when you hear a sertain sound. This could be chatter, taking too big of a cut and bogging the spindle down (learn the torque curve of the spindle) and so on. I'd Love to hear the feed back.
Didn't realize it at the time when I first started in machining but yes manual led a huge role when we eventually started to get cnc equipment. I feel for the young guys that have to start out on cnc's with no prior experience
So I’m coming at this from the perspective of a high schooler that is learning CNC using the titan academy. Currently running 6M. Big shout out to the OCTEC AME class. But it’s a two year program. First manual. Second CNC. the reason i like this format is because we have kids that don’t even know how to use a screwdriver their first year. So you teach them what the axis are and the different types of cuts. Than you move them into CNC the next year and now that they know what an endmill is and what a center drill is. At the end of the year they can program crazy parts like the 10M. That’s my opinion. BOOM.
CNC or Hands on approach, manual machining with digital readout big bonus, sharpening of tools & speeds & feeds that's a buzz BUT locking in a tool use a offset let it read a program & watch toolpath, then MAKE a component that's important & able to adjust that tool by + or - one thousand that's the biggest BUZZ, Titan steel runs in ya veins you can have everything else, we just want to make STUFF
I learned enough manual machining in high school to somewhat appreciate what real machinists could do spinning cranks. If I were to be a professional machinist, you bet I'd want my skills to be going where the money and demand were going.
I think manual machines are the perfect way to learn machining, because you are right in there where the action happens and you learn what noises and feelings correspond to what happens with the tool, when you change certain variables. Cnc wins from the manufacturing point if view almost everytime, but as someone who us just starting I think manual machines are the better option.
You know the only thing you feel roughing on a powerful manual machine is the hot and deadly chips flying everywhere. I see no point trying manual, just go to cnc and get to proper cutting right away, something you could never do on a manual machine.
Yeah. Everyone should start on manual machines for a few weeks. If a tool gets bounced off a lathe chuck it's not a big deal and people learn without risking seriously damaging a machine. They can tighten a chuck or vice up too tight and mark a part. Let them get a feel for work holding or fixturing when they actually have to move the cutter around the part and fixture themselves, and risk ploughing a cutter in to something. It's lower stakes when it come to damaging anything when mistakes happen, as mistakes will happen, it's part of learning.
@@gearloose703 If your afraid of manual machines then its best to stand behind the shield and be safe.
@@potatoking4008 your average cnc has maybe 15hp spindle absolute minimum. No shield will protect you if you have that on manual machine and actually put it in use. My point is manuals are used in a different way and are not in many ways at all useful when teaching cnc.
@@gearloose703 “proper cutting” not possible on a manual machine?? You’ve clearly never spent much time on serious sized manual machines then. As someone who has over 30 years in the trade & approximately even time spent on both manual AND cnc machines I can tell you that BOTH are invaluable experience to the other. No question. Each gives you more awareness of what is going on in the other area & any machinist that has experience with both will be the better for it.
I spent 5 years in a Tool Room on manuals, then moved to a prototrak. No doubt it helped me when I moved into CNC environment.
Same here!
of course, good training also includes operating conventional machines. manual machines make more sense in certain areas of application, because set-up is much faster. as always, you should adapt your machines to the requirements. if i want to process large orders with huge quantities, i go in the direction of maximum automation and the latest cad and cam technology.
in switzerland you complete a 4-year apprenticeship as a polymechanic and learn a lot there. since i did my apprenticeship and worked for a very good engineer in prototype construction for another 13 years, i really learned a lot.
i like this channel, titan and its employees, but i can't really learn much here, i rather look at the level of knowledge of one of the best american industrialists. why one of the best? because this man seems to really value a good education.
It depends what type of jobs you are doing....on a one off part
I can program the geometry on a pro trak by the time a programmer even fires up his cad program on his computer.
Cncs don't fit and grind components ....proto trak is a must in a machine shop enviroment
If you need to get from California to New York, walking would certainly get you closer, but cars and planes would get you there faster.
Yeah, prototrak is a good Segway into CNC.
ive been a mould toolmaker for 35 years,cnc was just coming in when i was an apprentice.I learnt the trade on manual machines,now i run a toolroom that is just cnc. where we used to feel the cut,now my ears tell me all i need to know
That's correct
I agree. We have a 4 yr program that traditionally was 2 yrs manual, 2 yrs CNC. We changed it into a parallel process. We teach CNC primarily but also include manual as a minor skill. This supports the ability for quick ops and possible rework. The entire program is blended. BTW. No placements on manuals for over 15 years now. That's evidence.
Same here Dave
Great answer!
2 years is a lot for todays manufacturing. 1 year manual and 3 years CNC is what I would do. Focus on programming correct speeds and feeds and a cam software
during my 4 year apprenticeship to become a cnc machinist, my first 2 years were on manual machines... in Switzerland this is mandatory...it gives you a brief overview and the one-day-a-week school to learn all the theory behind it, really helps to know the hows and whys. l agree, from a company-pov, the quicker the employee can handle a cnc machine, the better. as long as anything goes smooth, no problem. but with machining issues, l saw that l could fix my problems faster and quicker than the other employees who "just" learned on the job...on a cnc machine. l think, one or two month on a manual will pay off in the longrun...
I started life as a toolmaker but quickly realised that technology is the path to competitive manufacturing of components. The skills are complementary, but there is no valid reason that a intelligent machine operator can’t start out on CNC’s in today’s environment.
I learned on manual Machines for 3 years and that was the Time where my passion grew!
I'm working in CNC for a Year now, and is emediatly saw the improvement and the further learning, especilly with programming by hand but also with post processors. There are just so many posibilities.
Also i think this feeling of the Cut is a good thing to learn on a manual, this also helped me on CNC, im still learning to use my senses there, putting the Hand on the housing and feel the cut, but also using my ears to hear, if cuts are right.
Thank you for your work, Titans!
I think, you are unsayable important for the Industry any people, who want to learn machining!
Greetings from Germany
Yeah I had opportunities to do Manuel and I refused to accept that I needed to train on manuels and I was right. Yes they have similar processes to a certain extent before your limited on Manuel's. Im 30 and started out of blind faith in cnc at 19 and I can honestly say playing on Manuel's serves absolutely no purpose , if you have the choice dont waste your time on Manuel machines. It's not beneficial in comparison. Any good machinist can feel and hear there cnc machines. It isn't a Manuel only thing
I'm 20 yo student from Russia. The father of my friend gave me a chance to enter this sphere a year ago. Now I am a cnc programmer capable to use modern tool, cutting strategies and conditions. Nevertheless, sometimes I come to manual lathe and it is pure enjoy to spin handles, grind tools, measure stock and so on to get a required part. I guess, everybody should try himself at manual machining at first to get general understanding of cut processing, feeds and loads before going up to cnc.
I also like spinning the handles on the old manual machines. It makes me feel a little bit like I’m using an anti-aircraft gun 😅
Love your Chanel. I have a sheet-metal fabricating company that I started in my garage 35 years ago. There is no question that a CNC machinist can build a great career without learning the manual Bridgeport. The skill Of Learning manual machining is a dying breed but in my small world is still is necessary. Especially in small shops that don’t do Cnc as their wheelhouse. I’m the only one in my 16 man shop that can walk up to the mill or Lathe and make parts for whatever is needed. Fixtures, jigs, Pressbrake form tooling, etc. it’s just my opinion but someone with manual machine skills can be still essential part of the metalworking industry. Those people are rare to find.
Scott
I've gone back to manual after 20 years on CNC, a ton of CNC guys out there, but as the boss man said when he hired me, hard to find a good manual machinist now
I’m 26 years old working in a CNC/manual machine shop. I don’t know if I should focus on learning a Boring Mill or the CNC machines.
@@rough_hand go for both
With all due respect ! I work at a small machining shop and the thing is both can definitely do the same job but it depends on how many parts you need to make!
I personally still prefer manual cause i need to worry less about drawing and programming and i can just get right into that job
But if i have more than 3 parts i always go with cnc so everything depends on the job
i went from sweeping the floors 10 years ago to manager because i love the job. you can can hear and feel the machine and tool through sound and the floor. it lets you know what too much and whats not enough. we went from 15 feed on stainless to 200 from your channel. its been so cool to be apart of the change at my shop in idaho.
ABSOLUTELY true, I have been a machinist/toolmaker for close to 40 years and I can say without hesitation that you sir are correct I have been watching you and your channel for awhile and you have impressed the hell out of me!! Your energy and drive remind me of myself when I was younger. Thank you for re-inspiring me to continue learning new things and improving the ones I already know!!
I think it's valid to have a grounding in manual machining, but it's not the be all and end all.
Manual machines definitely win for ease of acessibility for some quick one off jobs, but mass production wise they're clearly in the back seat.
Which......is why cnc machines were developed in the first place......🤷♂️
@@Glenrok Of course, stating the obvious all day long, but I am pretty good at it!
@@thomashenderson3901 hahaha! 👌👌
Don't forget that CNC machines can also do things that are simply impossible on manual ones, such as interpolating funky shapes.
@@robbiejames1540 no impossible, but certainly more difficult. Your “funky shapes” when necessary were achieved by copy turning/milling. Cnc machines have certainly made it quicker & easier, but no less possible.
I got both manual and cnc at the same time, hand-in-hand. They complement each other.
I don't think it is really about feeling the cut, more about learning to setup and understand the principals of operation of each type of machine. No doubt cnc machining is what you need for production, but the basic knowledge is good to learn first.
Running a manual machine first gives you the basics of set up, tool speed and feeds and that hands on approach to the trade. Granted CNC is faster in every way once it is setup, however that person setting it up must have that basic knowledge to make it work. I've seen guys starting out run endmills and drills backwards into parts, snatch things out of the vise and you name it. CNC operator is definitely going make more money, but there will always be a need for the so-called old school "blacksmith machinist" to work on broken effed up stuff. Knowing how fix and machine busted up junk is an art in itself. A guy like that can make good money too. Problem solvers that run manual machines are a dying breed. I know I've done it for years!! Gained a new sub, great channel Titan.
I cut my teeth on manual machining (not literally lol) so I have always said that you need to spend some time on a manual machine to get a feel for the cut and to learn to think about the processes and operations involved and I stand by that. However, once you have done that time, the CNC is the way to go for sure. There is always a place for a manual machine or two in most workshops but to what extent really depends on the type of work you do.
Manual gives you that set up training, and opens your mind to understand CNC. I personally use both, for one part is faster to tool the manual, but roughing is faster on CNC, so if I happen to have the CNC fully tooled I go CNC until I don't. Without the knowledge of manual I would not be able to do. Regards
I can share my experience, I learned machining in France at 16years old, I started for a C.A.P (lathe) & a B.E.P (lathe & milling), it was a 2 years program school and over here we learn manual & CNC almost at the same time. The good thing about manual we can start faster making simple parts, but for something more elaborate it's usually with a CNC.
After that, I enrolled a 1st adaptation in order to pass an industrial scientific high school and knowing already machining was a huge help, then I followed an apprenticeship program in order to get a BTS Productique (machining with the level of 2 years university) and I mostly worked with Fanuc CNC back then, I also learned and worked with Siemens & Heindenhain. I finally ended to work with Fidia CNC which is like a Ferrari for tool machine.
20 years ago I had the opportunity to work in design office and the years I spent machining molds are still helping design plastic & composite materials parts.
So if you have the choice to learn manual or CNC go for CNC, knowing CNC you'll be able to learn easily and fast the manual in any workshop, and of course you'll make better income with CNC, and thanks for your channel.
0:50 usually climb cutting on a manual machine is no good unless you are doing finish cuts because the table can be moved by the tool because of backlash in the trapezoidal screw.
I'm a German machinist. I will be done with my apprenticeship in Jan. 22. I learned on a manual lathe and mill for about half a year before I moved up to cnc machining. In the beginning its great taking it slow when getting into cnc to understand what the buttons do, what the high end tools are capable of, what kind of strategies to use that obviously differ a lot from manual machining. But the end result is somebody that learns a lot faster than when manual machining simply from the amount of different parts you can make on a cnc compared to the manual. I learned so much more through cnc machining that I absolutely agree with Titan that learning on a CNC is better and makes more money for both sides. But also the learning curve (if you can step up to the challenge) is a lot steeper and therefore faster. I think the way I learned, meaning a short time on the manuals to get a grasp of the basics and then moving to the cnc will give you a lot more flexibility and confidence do be a better employee and also further increase your knowledge and skill as a person in this trade.
As from my experience in CNC - manual machining is obligatory for a person who is *absolutely new* in the trade - but *not for too long*, as You mentioned. 2, even 1 year is too much.
At ISCAR (Israeli tool manufacturer) they gave us basics of manual machining within *couple weeks*, and I'm grateful for that - it gives a better understanding of how it all actually works, how to FEEL the cut.
Then moving to CNC goes much easier - IMHO!
I'm a manual machinist because I have a passion for it and it's what I love. I'd dive into CNC if I wanted to make more money and do more complex parts, but both have their places. Neither is better than the other in every situation
I feel that it depends on the direction the person is planning to go. I started on manual machines, but the future was CNC. I could have went straight to CNC and applied most of the same principles.
To me they are one of the same and they both have there place.
My opinion is you can learn one without learning other.
Manual lathe, CNC mill if I had my own shop. Manual machining for maintenance work, CNC for manufacturing. They have their pros and cons
I was a tool & die maker on manual machines such as lathes, milling machines horizontal and vertical, large radial drill press, large and small surface grinders, large plainer, shapher.
Using all types of tool steels, ALWAYS do you're own heat treatment and annealing, welding of all types of welders. Also made injection molds.
All this just when some cnc machine adaptation of milling machines and lathes were in there infancy.
Later I was a machinist for the USAF using all manual machines. Of course we had all the attachments to go with the machines like rotary tables, indexing head and so much more.
Tool & cutter grinder that i loved to keep all the cutters sharp and save money.
I have worked in job shops and loved it for all the different jobs that came in the door. Never had a dull moment.
AGREE with TITAN. I'm probably one of those few stories who went direct to CNC and happened to be successful. Learning fundamentals like relying on chip load and surface footage recommendations from tool makers and making proper work holding is more important in my opinion. Learn rigidity and how to hold components and tools as rigid as possible. Second learn to program tool paths like a pro, learn how to really utilize what ever CAM software you use and make those tools work efficiently! 9 times out of 10 when I walk into a shop to help them with their setup; their issues ultimately boil down to a couple issues. Incorrect tool selection for the feature being machined and incorrect feeds and speeds. Soooo many shops and businesses don't know what's available and they are severely limited due to this.
10 years in the trade. I program/setup/operate a brand new dmg cmx 50u. Hopefully by june 2022 a dmg dmu 50 0r 65. I started at a high end shop in new mexico. Learned a lot there. The only manual machines they have there are a few manual lathes, drill press, and some grinders. I do not think you need to start on manual machines to get good at cnc. You need to know how to run them. I did take a 1 year program at Central New Mexico Community College. Glad i did. We did about 3 months manual only then went to cnc. It should be said that at the shop in New Mexico I operated multiple machines at first. Got in to programming as soon as possible. I think once you understand how to indicate ANYTHING; angle plates, vices, plate stock on top of blocks, fixtures, sin plates, as well as why, you are on your way. The funny thing is i haven't had to indicate a vice or fixture in manually since the machine i run does it with a probing cycle.
I dont think i would be anywhere near as high up in the trade if i didnt start programming and setting up cnc's as early as. I did. I think you will learn faster on a cnc because you will go through more setups. I think the debate nowadays should be, who gets on multuaxis mills and lathes? I think you need to know how to build highly accurate fixtures to rotate parts with pins and tooling balls before you go to multi axis. Some people are just naturally gifted at fixturing. I met an engineer that just got into programming cnc. He was clocking and indexing complicated castings right off the bat. I think base intelligence and creative problem solving are the main factor in how much and how fast you learn. There are so many different tricks to learn from different people, industries, and shops. As long as you understand what a tool should sound like for how aggressive it is cutting and where the line is drawn, starting on manual or not doesn't matter. Some people can do amazing things with manual machines.
The only fear I have is when the technology gets hijacked, we may have to survive for a while in manual mode.
Knowing how to machine manually is an art, if you have to fall back on it you should have at least basic skills and knowledge.
Beyond that, CNC is definitely the way to go, even for one off parts.
I don't think we can lose the technology.
I don't understand what you mean by "hijacked."
An apocalypse scenario.... But then what kind of machining we do is the least of our problems. ,😁
@@jamisojo well if our power system breaks down because of a big sunstorm or a EMP, then it isn't an apocalypse like shown in movies but it is bad enough that our entire production lines and everything that needs electrisity in some whay will be useless or destroyed after it happened.
on a side note: there is historical evidence that the earth got already hit by a sun storm strong enough to destroy all elektronics a few hundret years ago and it is only a question of time until such a sun storm will hit the earth again.
@@dovos8572 The grid is immune to geomagnetic storms. We have satellites at the L1 point that spend 24 hours a day watching the sun and automatically cataloging geomagnetic events. If a geomagnetic storm strong enough to effect the grid where was on a course to hit earth then the grid is turned off before impact.
Geomagnetic storms only effect long conductors like power lines; small electronics will not have a high enough induced current to be damaged.
Akso this wouldn't make much sense as being whatever OP was referring to since even manual machines still use electricity and all their motors would be just as dead IF a storm could cause that kind of local damage.
@@nocare I'm not talking about a typical sun storm that happens every so often, but one that is 100 times stronger than them. One that is strong enough that the earth magnetic field gets pushed away completely from the impact side. One that is big enough to engulf the entire earth and not just a local point.
th-cam.com/video/tu8DYG9UYTY/w-d-xo.html here is the video about that what I'm talking about.
@@dovos8572 @Devrost Yes I was talking about exactly that level of storm.
The grid would take no damage from such a storm.
Small electronic devices are completely unaffected.
The internet is in danger but only between countries thru undersea cables.
And only because the optical boosters need power to amplify the fiber optic signal. The fiber optic cables themselves would be unaffected.
land based internet over some areas would also be affected.
So its eroniouse to claim that electronic devices would be destroyed or useless as most electronic devices have protections or are too small to be effected in the first place.
Over 50 years manual machining, now out to pasture, but still learning,
Thanx,
As a machinist who learned manually then moved to CNC.. I agree that in this day and age... its probably better for careers and success to move into CNC as soon as possible. What I will say though, is that it would be a shame for a CNC machinist to not experience manual machining. Even if its afterwards. To become the most versatile, complete machinist... in my opinion, you need that experience. It will only make you better. Even if its 95% CNC... 5% manual.
I think you are right, Titan. A trip that someone taught me (when i was manual machinist), is to watch the chips you get from your cut: color thickness and shape, and this is helping me nowadays to well programming,
the same tip was given to me when i was CNC machinist 🤣
I don't think you can call yourself a Machinist if you are not accomplished manually. You can run/set-up/program a CNC without that experience, but Machinists make the best CNC operators.
Well, I've learned on a manual mashine and am still on it.
I'm happy i started where i did but I'm looking forward to getting my own CNC machine at some point.
Although that will take a while, the company i work at actually has need for someone on a manual mill because we only make specialized one off mashines
what sort of products do you make? I'm just very curious. Thanks
CNC is great if you want to do complex parts or multiple of the same part but if you need something simple made up to get you out of trouble or if you need to do some repair work, manual is often the way to go. All depends on there situation
I'm finishing the first semester of my machining program. While our hands on time this semester was all on manual machines, our mills in particular have programmable 2-axis controllers, so it's really a hybrid approach where yes you are setting the speed manually, but you program the feed in the controller. Yes you have to set Z manually, but X/Y are all programmed. I really appreciated the closeness to the process that you get with the manual machines, but the school does not force you to stick with it for a large chunk of time before getting into CNC, next semester is all CNC and it just builds from there if you take the 2 year track. I still have the option of graduating with the 1 year certificate or continuing on to the 2 year associates.
I work in a tool room and love the 2-axis CNC knee mills we have. It's the best of both worlds.
Titan,
I have nothing but love for the information and experiences you and your team share with the community. It has brought visibility to a trade that is critical to this country and a great career path for many people.
I have a bit of a perspective on this, as I spent my youth helping my father in his machine shop, there at every step as it has evolved from manual machining to being focused on moving all of that work to CNC. The challenge I see with starting on CNC machines isn't one of better or worse, but one of focus. When you spend some time on a manual machine, you are a lot more "up close and personal" with the cut. You get a very intimate perspective on the interaction between the cutter and the material, one that isn't masked by a box and gallons of coolant spraying everywhere. This is a focus on the metallurgy and machining process without the parallel distraction of the programming that you get when you start out with a CNC. Can some people put their forehead on the glass or hand on the machine and feel a good cut? Maybe. Can they hear it? Maybe. It strikes me that a deeper understanding of what is going on is captured from more senses, not less. When you start out with CNC, you skip over the sense of feel that you get as you feed that cutter into the material. Your connection to that leadscrew, feeling the pressure is something that you can't duplicate by sensing vibration. They are both critical skills, but one isn't a substitute for the other as you are learning the material science behind what you are machining. I would be very reluctant to skip over manual machining in favor of CNC, just as I think its good for CNC machinists to spend a little time in front of the manual machines every once in a while to fine tune their senses around the entire machining process. Theoretical speeds and feeds are nice, a good sounding/feeling cut is better, but a machinist with well-rounded experience that has felt the difference through as many senses as possible is the key to making the best chips.
Just my thoughts on it. Keep up the great and noble work of sharing this trade!
Toolmaker in press tool repair shop and use manual 75% of the time (mill/turn/grind). I honestly learned more about how to cut metal propperly from cnc than kicking around on the manuals. 'feeling the cut' is just a way to not break something when not cutting correctly.
Well after being io onn the trade for 8 years, the first 6 almost exclusively in manual I find that my intuition about what is going on inside the cnc machine is greater than the guys who only did cnc. The fact is a CNC is actually a manual machine in a cabinet controlled by a computer.
To hear you say it and explain it, I totally agree. But my experience just hasn’t lined up with that. I wish it did! Of the people that have come in and out of our shops over the years, those with some manual experience seem to make better machinists. I don’t think it has so much to do with feel or sound, as developing your thought processes in an environment that is much slower paced and with more pauses and vision; and then being able to scale that up to the CNC machines. I think that the problem now is that trade schools are compressing their curriculum in general, so manual stuff is getting squeezed out altogether, and basic CNC stuff is starting to go with it.
I designed and programmed an 11 axis ultrasonic welding machine 24 years ago, run it to this day.. Competitors (national labs) cannot duplicate what I did two decades ago...yet. I now learn a mill and lathe, watching vids like yours. (I am an EE expanding my hobbies, ready to retire.)
You are one of my go to sources...thank you.
I waffle between learning manual machining and starting just on the CNC. Your vid is very good and convincing. Using your senses to feel how the cnc is working is the future.
Nice work
John
I had 30 years as a press toolmaker here in the UK and the bridgeport turret mill was the best ever and when the digital readout came on the scene it was a marvel . I then went on to fanuc wire erosion machines then Hiddenhain cnc milling machines . I retired in January 2021 and decided to build a bench cnc mill capable of milling steel which is now 2 thirds complete and will chase some work for it when complete . I avidly watch your video,s and comend you for the power you put into maching i have never seen such large cuts well done you guys
I'd suggest every machinist watching your videos will agree, you have to start as a manual machinist before moving to CNC, you just cannot miss that learning step of turning handles on lathes and mills.
I'm a time served toolmaker, apprentice to skilled man taking four years, yeh I get that your workers have to make your money, but if they haven't the machining grounding then they'll make expensive mistakes............and it's not fair on the operator because he/she won't have fun.
I'm not a machinist, but a woodworker. Its kinda like how even though we have had power tools for a long long time it's still good to learn how the hand tools work. If nothing else, it allows you to appreciate the modern equivalents. It gives you context for how the modern tools work and gives people respect and appreciation for the trade and how it has evolved.
Titan, you really struck a chord with me on this one. I worked a job that fell exactly into the same trap you mentioned here in this video.
My first job as a CNC operator was at a family owned business. I loved the job and the environment initially, but the pace at which they were letting me progress was 1/100th of what I felt I could achieve. I was stuck as an operator, even though I had showcased my talent and schooling by doing some manual work for them. On top of that, I had heard from most employees that they usually endured 1-2 *years* as a manual machinist before even being allowed to train for setup work on CNC machines. My performance tanked and they sacked me, and to be frank: I came out better in that instance.
Less than 7 months later I'm at a job that's paying me over twice as much, with better benefits, a better lifestyle, and a better career outlook. I came out better because I believed in myself and so I moved around. I took positions of greater importance at different companies, taking in everything I could at a rapid pace, and I became the machinist that I thought I could be in 5 years at my first job, all in 5 months. If I was still at my first job, they'd be forcing me to menial manual work for terrible pay and terrible benefits, and I would still be dissatisfied with my work.
I have had nothing but praises on my CNC work after leaving my first job and I am constantly regarded by my coworkers and higher ups as an incredibly fast learner. Make sure you always evaluate yourself and your skills because you are worth way more than what your first job says you're worth.
I agree with you totally 100% I started off straight to CNC and I did the same thing as you stated I listened I felt the vibration which allowed me to understand more about the feeds and speeds. Now the I have 18 years of CNC operation, setup and programing under my belt I can feel the part more when I'm running a manual lathe. Thank you Titan for all your knowledge that you share with the rest of us
I love manual machines and I still run manual machines from time to time but i think manual is where to start and then you will be better when you get to CNC because you understand the cut and how it should feel and sound like.
I respect the manual guys a lot. They are the program. Working on triple offset butterflies to cutting in compound angles to picking up threads. It is like you said Titan, its art.
Pays like being an artist too
Hello Titan I started Manuel machining in 1974 and I consider myself a Complete Manuel Machinist. Turning , Milling, Surface Grinding, Broaching etc. That being said I started my own machine shop in 1982, I started with Manuel machines, Lathes, mills , Horizontal Boring mills, surface Grinders etc. Purchased my first CNC machine in 1998. It was a Haas VF3. What I think is that with my previous Manuel Machining skills it made programming way easier for Me. I just tried my best to program my CNC machines to do what I would do manually. The Point is , I knew how to attack the part. Now here it is 2021 and I have had ups and downs but I Love My CNC machines and I can Run several of them "By Myself "at once. I do Not own a Manuel machine anymore. Although I may buy a lathe or mill down the road. I believe all machinists are necessary and very Important. In My Humble Opinion for a "1 off" reasonably simple part I can probably make it less expensive manually, but if The Customer needs 3 or 4 I can usually Setup, Program and machine those with CNC faster than manually. I Love it ALL
Love this topic. So I did 6 months in the manual machine section of the workshop. This gave me the fundamentals of understanding how the different axis work and how to tackle problems. After the first six months then I moved over to CNC. Starting out on a C axis lathe. I worked my way up to the mills and start on a 3 axis mill. After a year or so I got to work on the 5 axis mill. From then to now I have been running 4 and axis mills and also Miltruns.
I think that if you are new to machining you still need a little time on manual machines so that you know what is going on and how it all work. It is easier to correct your mistakes in your method of machining on manual then on CNC.
Hey Titan, How do you feel about retrofitted Manual machines? They don't use G&M Codes(well some do, mine doesn't), they're much more conversational in their programing. Ive been on a retrofitted manual mill for about 9 months now, and Ive gotten a lot of great experience in feeling the cut, but since I've been on it, I've gotten really rusty on my G&M codes. could this be a detriment to me moving over to a CNC, and how do i talk to my boss about moving me to a CNC when i haven't had any experience on one since i got out of my 2 year college program?
Great conversation. I wouldn't feel comfortable touching a CNC if I didn't have some time on the Bridgeport first. Definitely think one would need manual machining or small desktop router experience before ever touching a real CNC. Similarly, you need know to weld before you can program a welding robot.
I started working as a machinist on 30 years old lathe machine vdf boehringer in one croatian company called HStec. I was considered to first learn manual machining for some 6 months and then transfer to the cnc lathe. That cnc machine broke down before I started to learn there and eventually I stayed for some 14 months in total working on same two manual lathes. That was the best experience and knowledge I got while doing machining. Manual isn't about doing brand new parts. Those days are over,cnc rule the world now. BUT fixing used parts, damaged threads, extremely "sensitive" parts, all kind of improvising how to save some part... Manual machine is still excellent for that. Keep up the good work Titan, you have a right attitude for this job, I wish I was working at your company back then.
Toni
I came into Cnc machining with no experience. Learned on Cnc, and got decent at operating, setting up, taking tests cuts, paying attention to the load, vibration, chip color, etc. Then I learned on a manual and loved how much control I had in the outcome of my part.. I didn’t have to guess as much, but it helped me have an understand of how to process a part better. I’ve only been on the trade now for 3.5 years, but I’ve come a long way. I’m now a supervisor/ programmer, and it’s funny that I find myself feeling the machine, putting my ear to it, stopping and starting coolant so I can see clearances, watching my load percentages. Always trying to stay one step ahead of the outcomes of whatever you are making. A lot of getting a feel for your machine and building confidence is very important In this trade.
I started on CNC machines. I found this informed me on how to think how a CNC would machine the part. This helped in setups and machining on manual machines. It is especially true on lathes. Speeds and feeds are critical and CNC teaches this lesson in a hurry.
For learning starting on manual for a semester or 2 is good. It teaches you about order of operations, it helps visualize how the part will take shape, and gives you a better idea of tool selection. But then you need to move on to setting up and running CNC, then editing programs at the control, and last I would put cad/cam. Being able to run a machine will get you a job, being able to edit/hand jam a program and cad/cam help you move up. I'm lucky now in that I just get handed a print and choose what machines, what order, and what tooling to use.
Long ago when I started my Company I needed to do machining to make robots. Bought a used Bridgeport Boss 1 CNC. Learned G code, wrote a graphics editor, code compiler and bought ENCO tooling. It was great but I bought a ENCO knee mill and getting stock square was real easy or adjusting a few thou made life nicer.
I want to thank a trade school guy for a Saturday well spent. In 8 hours he taught me to square a stock, make turned parts and do surface grinding and carry a shop rag in my back pocket. It cost me 100 dollars, lunch and a beer. I am sure he is heaven and still thank him for that life changing day. All the programming is great but feeling a 500 rpm .5 Endmill chomping through Tool steel wobbling the feed handle in your hands was a great moment.
When I was going to get into machining I had one year of industrial workshop(manual machining, welding and some other use full skills) then a year of cnc machining I think that the manual machining helped in the cnc class the next year and as it turned out I didn’t go into machining I went into marine engineering and I have no use at all for cnc machining but manual machining sure do so I think that knowing how to use one is good knowing how to use both is great since you don’t always know where life’s going to take you
I am a manual only shop. I love manual machines. I have worked in both, and never cared for the CNC side of the industry. I don't run large quantities, and never wanted to. But to say you can make more money on CNC is false. The work I do is high dollar stuff and most of it was being done by CNC shops before I started doing it. I also have a lot of customers who are CNC shops that send me work that is low volume and not a good fit for them. Very profitable and enjoyable work for me. The one shop told me the worst thing they ever did was go full CNC about 10 years ago.
If the need ever came up in my shop to get a CNC, I have no problem going that route. We all have different customers, needs, and niches we work within. They both have their place and are both very profitable. You need to know your market and what you want to become in the industry.
Great video. I'm a manual guy at my shop and wouldn't want it any other way. That being said, I have mad respect for the CNC guys because they have so much more preliminary things to do before starting a job, not to mention their setups must be near perfect the first time whereas we can sort of fiddle with it on the fly. For the stuff we do at our shop, CNC is the most used but we run a decent amount of production on the manuals since it sometimes makes more sense. Manual has a place and always will, but CNC is definitely the way to go for most production.
I started manual machining when I was 11 years old in my dad's garage using a colchester knockoff and i LOVED it. 36 now, robotics engineer, using a manual is my spare time therapy, however CNC opens up a whole new world of possibilities for parts and that's what makes it exciting for me.
I would say that it's best to start with manual machining because of the necessity for attention to detail and that the cost of mistakes is much lower. Forgetting a decimal on a manual machine doesn't cause a crash while on the other hand you can damage a CNC machine with a perfect program started from the wrong offset. It's not about the machine it's about training the machinist to be meticulous.
I like manual machines. although i never wrote a single line of code for a cnc machine (second year trainee as a tool mechanic), it honestly seems boring and scary to learn, like driving a car for the first time. I can appreciate cnc machinists for their dedication in working smarter than harder, but i can't imagine myself doing it
I felt the same as an apprentice, but as you learn to appreciate what cnc machines can do its very possible you'll never go back to a manual machine again
tbh for becoming a CNC machinist you won't have to write lines of code, usually there is CAM software that does the job for you. Then it's more a matter of planning the machining operations, figuring out what methods to use when and where and what parameters to put. But the actual code will be generated by the program, you might only have to deal with it for troubleshooting.
Ha! You would become way more comfortable than you think with it very quickly. It seems intimidating at first but once you realize the machine still doesn't do anything you don't tell it to, you start getting adventurous.
@@brahtrumpwonbigly7309 and that'll be the end of my workplace i reckon. Just have to see how it'll go, thanks
I started manual mill and surface grinder. I am almost one year into apprenticeship. Cnc surface grinders are a little different but you can still get the feel for the machine. I think you always need manual machines in a shop in case.
Cnc surface grinders are very good for flat and square grinding and sometimes angles by using a sine plate, but we can not change the wheel as easy as on a small manual surface grinder. You can make a form grinding wheel for a small grinder, easier.
I personally think now days they are two separate beasts, in the early days of CNC you had to do all the work. programming by hand, so knowing how to take a cut was essential and manual machining taught you these skills. But now with the power of the beast machines that you guys show and the tooling and a good CAM program there is very little comparison, between the two discipline
I’m an engineering student and a machining novice if that, but in my first cnc class we had to hand calculate the toolpaths, feeds and speeds,MRR, etc, and hand write Gcode before we even opened any cam software. Glad I am able to look at gcode and have an understanding of what is happening, but agree that nowadays manual vs cnc are two completely different things
Yeah, some of the first "CNC" type machines I saw were run off a punch tape. When I did my apprenticeship in a toolroom they were just bringing in CNC (bought a mill to do one specific job and a lathe for learning and the occasional job), you could always tell when they were having an off day with the lathe, the belts would screech when the chuck locked up after running the tool into it. LOL The mill that was bought for a specific job was hit and miss - I remember having to ream 2/10ths out of 1000 holes in plenty of plates because they stuffed it up on the CNC. I could see it was the way of the future so I decided to concentrate on the fitting side of the trade - I wasn't real keen on sitting in the office writing out programs most of the time. I guess it has gotten a lot easier now. One good thing about doing a lot of manual machining is you never forget how to do it, I can still produce accurate stuff even after many years away from the machines.
You are so correct. I started learning manual machining in two weeks of summer school between my 6th grade and 7th grade year then every summer I took the same 2 week machine trades class until I was a junior in high school when I took machine trades for 2 years and graduated with a 2 year certificate. That was more than 40 years ago. Almost my entire working career has been in manual machining. I just never got the opportunity to learn CNC and so I could never understand how a CNC machinist could be a real machinist until recently I had a job opportunity where they hired me for my manual skills and asked if I would be willing to learn conversational CNC so I could do both, and I was absolutely thrilled. I learned how much capability there is to produce very complex and accurate parts quickly, in CNC. Also, what I always had understood as some basic fundamental rules of machining that could not be broken have mostly been thrown out the window when you move into the CNC realm. I even started to feel like I was becoming a relic in manual machining except there is still that place where manuals fit well. It just isn't as wide a place anymore. My short time working in CNC was amazing. I learned a lot, made some interesting parts, and wish I could have continued learning and gaining more experience in the CNC arena. You said it the best it can be said. To compete, locally, nationally, globally, CNC machining is the only way that will happen. The best paying machinist jobs are in CNC. Add to that, if you can do the programming, you're going to have the opportunity to make more money. I tip my hat to ALL CNC machinists who are making this country great! Thank you Titan for your passion and all you are doing for this trade and country. Who knows what the next 100 years has in store!
As someone that has only ever done manual machining but is interested in getting into cnc. I think I have learned many valuable lessons with manual machining that I wouldn't want to have to learn with CNC machining,such as workholding and tool life. I've had crashes that might have nearly totalled a CNC lathe but only required minor repairs on a manual lathe for instance.
I started on manuals in high school in 2001. I took that 4 years exp and went to a certificate program at my local community college which provided the base for g code and CAD. The toolmaker program was heavy on manual machining. I was hired at a CNC shop at the end of that year and have been there for going on 17 years.
Im brand new into this trade working for a manufacturing company who produces very large pieces mainly for the mining industry, Ive picked up the You Ji 1000 +ATC in a couple of days and was running the parts independently with trainer verifying test cut measurements and final ID,OD, depth and threads. The company seems to produce machine operators instead of full machinists. What should I try to learn to maximize my value? Should I just learn whatever is in front of me? When should I ask for more complicated ops?
I got a crash course into machining running a massive vertical lathe. Never been in the trade prior to that. But I had an understanding of math and asked at least a million questions at to how it operates and what to watch for. I learned that machine would react and how it should sound and feel when everything is running correctly.
It took me a few years to actual learn the concepts of what I was doing sometimes but to me it all comes down to who is teaching you and how much are you actually trying to understand. I went on to run 5 axis mills after and it was a little weird at first but knowing what you’re reading on the control and being able to look at the spindle itself and know what it’s going to do when you single block each line is just as important as being able to do it by hand on a manual machine.
Started with manual machines at school and after I got an apprenticeship as a cnc operator. When I saw how these machines could move, the efficiency and all that, I felt that my imagination was the limit. Still to this day, I run a Doosan 3100XLY, and I can certainly feel the cut by ear, feet and hands, not only on my machine but the machine beside my machine as well. Manual machinists deserves all the respect possible, but I won't ever assume that a guy that has only run CNC's is lesser skilled in any way. The difference, in my opinion, is how much you love the trade and how much you want to learn. And that goes for everything
I ran manual mills for several years before running a CNC mill and I definitely learned a lot and there are still a few times where it’s quicker for me to mill something or a feature manually rather than programming it. But I do think learning CNC out of the gate is the best way because, if you have a great teacher or a strong desire to learn and grow you’ll be so much more valuable quicker than if you learned on a manual. In these days, most people are familiar with computers and technology and using those familiarities can help speed up the learning curve for people who haven’t ran a CNC. Starting on CNC will help challenge yourself and push you to be a greater machinist if you study and work at it, learning from your mistakes and other people’s mistakes will help you be the best you can be. Your limit is your imagination in CNC machining and manufacturing. I love this trade!
Ok, to bring my experience into context here:
I started in the 80s with pure manual machining and learned CNC machining in the early 90s in Germany.
"Feeling the cut" on both types of machines is different as you pointed out in the video and I would add, not only feeling matters, also listening.
With manual machining you also learn the resistances of the different materials, when you crank through it and THIS is very important, because you learn the limits quite fast and when it feels "wrong". You also learn, when the drill bit or end mill starts to "bow" on it's path (does that makes sense for you?) .
You can do that with a handwheel of a CNC as well, but it's different and you don't get the same response, so that is more for the already experienced machinists.
In current times, manual machining is a good addition to learn and get a better feelings of all the materials you cut and this gives you a better understanding how to push the limits on a CNC
Teaching new employees in a CNC shop, especially the unexperienced, you take what you have to give them experience. And it's always good to experience cutting with "all your senses", not only with your eyes
Pulling a proper chip is where manual machines shine in learning. I started in deburr where you pull small chips by hand. Learning to understand how to get ahold of the part and rigidity in harmony with taking a proper chip is the ticket. It can be done via cncs but I think the respect and power of the machine and their true cutting potential is greatly appreciated when you graduate from manual machining to cncs.
I have defiantly benefited from my manual experience in setup. How far can a part be machined unsupported? what is the best tool to use for what application? For an operator, how to tell when your tool needs changed (before it makes a scrap part or explodes ). Yes you will learn this cnc machining at a higher cost, given feed and speed rates are so much higher. I had an apprentice, a few years back, that had issues with work holding(how tight is too tight or loose in a vice etc) .
With 20 yrs as a manual machinist first, and now 4 years cnc machining, I don't see both types as the same job, for example; as a manual machinist your job is setup/ operate/ and design (either on cad or a sketch). It used to be, in a cnc shop (i worked in a cnc shop before i worked for a manual job shop circa 1997) You had a programmer/ setup person, and an operator. So now in 2021, has the operator taken on the setup/programmer job or are these still separate people?
I started on a drill press with an x-y table because it was the first thing available to me. Bought an old Bridgeport years later then a CNC machine shortly after. The best tool you have to learn on is the one you have access to right now. If I had access to a CNC shop at the time I would have gone straight into it.
Surface Grinders, OD/ID Grinders, Jig Grinders, Shapers, Key Seaters, Honing Machines, Horizontal Boring Mill, Horizontal and Vertical Mills, Layout and Inspection, Press Work, Welding: Stick TIG and MIG, not to mention Turret and Engine Lathes of various sizes! All manual machines I was required to learn and run as a requirement to fulfill a 4 yr. "On the Job" Tool and Die Maker apprenticeship, long before I later had the opportunity to eventually learn CNC on a Mazak Quick Turn 10" back in the eighties.
I believe these different machine shop challenges were all necessary to build my confidence up enough to tackle a CNC machine which at the time, were exotic and mysterious, back when most people did not even own a personal computer!
As a tradesman and precision machine shop owner with over 40 years experience in machining all types of parts on lathes, mills, grinders, ect, I tend to agree with your statement regarding "jumping straight into CNC". Like most tradesman in my age range, I learned on manual machines. While its great to know that I can calculate the gear train for a helical cut, or that I can set up a universal mill to perform such a cut, the reality is that I have not needed to do this for 30+ years. Performing tasks like this on 4 axis machines is so quick and easy, it seems to renders many of the old ways obsolete. I tend to think that the sooner a new user jumps into CNC, the better.
You are absolutely correct when you say that the "feel" obtained when using a manual machine is obtainable in most cases when using a CNC machine. CNC machines "talk" to the operator in much the same way as a manual machine, all be it using slightly different senses. Perhaps the only potential downside I see to learning on a CNC is the potential damage a new user can do in the event of a crash. A manual machine might give a little more warning when things are about to go wrong. This however is only true in the case of small manual machines. As anyone who has machined parts on big machines can appreciate, when the shit hits the fan on a BIG manual machine, it splatters just as bad as any CNC crash. I guess the moral to this lesson is, learn to double check before hitting cycle start.
These videos you create are incredible. Not only do they provide helpful instruction to people wanting to learn new skills, you provide the motivation and guidance necessary for people to explore this great trade in the first place. Excellent work!!!
you know lately ive been pushing my rong fu rf30 manual to its limits because of what you have said in previous videos.. and recently i hit its limit when i pushed a 16mm carbide roughing mill into a 8mm depth of cut through the whole flute length (DRY).. i actually had to ease off as i was about to stall the motor but rigidity wise it was actually fine with min vibration and it was rather quiet.. honestly every time ive crashed the mill i learn why as ive lost a few carbide end mills due to rigidity issues.. you can really feel the limits of a machine through vibration on a manual mill. Ive never tried a cnc mill but i can really see the value in them and the stupid speeds you can machine something on them. but thankyou for giving me the confidence to push my machine harder as it has speed up projects in my small workshop that needs a part to be made as i normally make parts from scrap or cut offs from welding jobs etc.. so i do alot of roughing before i smooth it all out
For mass production, it has to be CNC. Complex or compound shapes, CNC.
But, for reparing damage, repairing existing threads, fitting parts, only possible using manual lathes & mills.
I'm currently doing my machinist apprenticeship in Germany. I was doing manual milling, turning and sawing/filing for the first 5 months and then got into CNC programming. I thought that was a nice progression. I know there are others that spend even more time doing manual sawing, filing, drilling and tapping before coming to a mill or lathe. I think that is ridiculous. It is great to see what you can do with your own hands and simple tools. Then going to a manual mill and seeing the ease with which you can do the same things, just much faster and more efficiently. And you really get to see how the machine operates and wants to move and good strategies. And then when that is ingrained to a certain extend, you go CNC and make the jump to thinking about repeatability, speed, chipload, exact speeds and feeds. Going straight to a CNC would be a mistake, since they are so black box at first. You aren't in the thick of it, you don't see a lot of the machine since it's all hidden away for safety and longevity. And some things are just much easier done on a manual setup vs. a CNC setup, especially in small runs and one offs. But overall, manual should be a stepping off point, not its own long thing.
Not a machinist, but I hear you passion; I understand your point of view.
If the world could have more teachers and instructors like you, the world would be a better place!
I started my machining career in 9th grade 1975 Portage Northern High School,Michigan. Vocational machine shop 2 years. 1981-85 Navy USS Forrestal machine shop 4 years.etc. I think you just need the fundamentals of machining and you'll feel the CNC,look at the load meters,know the sounds of the spindle,table,etc. Fundamentals are what you need.
Personally I used manual turning as a gateway into machining. I learnt from some truly amazing lads and I’m so grateful. I spent a good year and a half on a manual lathe and made my mark in the shop and proved I understood the process. I knew why tools were struggling and how to fix it because I could feel the cut and when I applied myself to CNC machining, I was so grateful for the manual machining experience when I started using the machines. I’m now a time served machinist in both manual and CNC on both lathes and mills and I truly think I’ve benefited from my start point. HOWEVER! If there are no manual machines in a shop it doesn’t mean that you can’t train to be a great CNC machinist! :)
Hard to say, either are good options in todays age ! I started as manual, there still is a lot of manufacturing jobs that are IMPOSSIBLE on cnc, for examples machining a 30ft long shaft, there is a lot more manuals out there for large equipment like that, planer mills.. etc
Hey Titan, love your attitude and the quality of videos you and your team release.
I am by no means a machinst but I do have a few years of running a manual lathe and mill and I want to learn CNC but don't have access to a machine.
But I do believe learning manually has taught me a lot about how tools look and how effective they are at work. Your videos helped a lot on some of these last little projects my job has me doing
Thank you for your education!
My community College program had us on manual machines for half a semester(6 Months?). And second semester move onto cnc & all that came with learning it. I do appreciate starting on a manual machine. As personally I felt it gives a confidence boost in knowing that you can do it by hand already,we also learned how to read blueprints & measurements so again your hands on learning where if you had to learn programming +CAD software+ blueprint & terms such as facing,debut, knurl. Might be a bit much
and now in cnc your letting the machine do the work and now you know what to expect of the finished part.
I love metalworking, it is my first true love of life. In High School I took metal shop, had to fight the guidance counselor on that one because he wanted me to take extra math classes. In college I got a job in a campus machine shop (all manual) and loved it, learning everything I can. I got out of college in the 90's, and went knocking on every door I could find - every machine shop, especially anyone with a CNC machine. Not one of those shops would give me the time of day - they would only talk to someone that already has CNC experience. Every door slammed shut in my face. So my career has been limited to manual-only. I eventually got my hands on a Sherline CNC that I could putter with at home and learned a few things there, nothing especially applicable to a production shop. But to answer your question - we have 5 senses, and they all play a part in learning what's going on behind the cut. Manual is one path to learn, but not the only one. The modern displays show parameters of HP percentage and the like, not unlike driving a vehicle whether it's a car or a bulldozer. You can learn to drive regardless! Also, Isolation between the machinist and the cut will go a long way to improving everyone's long-term health so expect there to be a constant shift in that direction.
I think it depends in what an individual plans to do. Relocate to find a modern manufacturing job? Stay put in a small town keeping old machinery in the area operating? Adding to a fabricating skillset? Hobby? Short run or one-off parts? Huge contracts?
The wider your base of knowlege, the better stability you have as you rise.
I started on a bridgeport and Mattison and Blanchard grinders before moving to cnc. Made the transition easier
I started on manual machines, was on manual machines for about 5 years also. Then the shop got two ez-tracks and one ez-path. Then it just went mainly cnc. We still use the manual machines to do things ones the cnc’s are up and going. Square a few blocks as the cnc’s are running or simple quick things on them. The machine centers and turn centers run almost 24/7 running parts. It pays the bills and put smiles on all our faces. It’s crazy how the news guys come and watch you do things on manual machines it use to be the opposite.
I teach at a trade school, our program is not a two year college based course, it's a six month accelerated program.
We do teach conventional mills and lathes and CNC. I do agree that manual machines are being phased out. Touching the body of the machine to feel the tool is something you as a experienced machinist need to master, but sound is also just as important, listening to pitch changes can tell you a lot along with touch.
What I see in the future is CNC machining augmented with 3D printing.
I did manual first 25 years ago, today... who honestly does production on a manual? Principals are academic and can be applied in infinite unique ways. My 17 year old son just finished building his 1 meter square 3-axis router. We will power it up Monday morning and he will get his first introduction to cnc machining having never in his life drilled a hole.
CNC is clearly the way when it comes to production these days, no doubt. But there are still a large quantity of large manual tooling machines out there in the industry, many are decades old. They are often the #1 choice when it comes to custom jobs, 1 off, repair and maintenence, which there still is a high demand for.
@@Rimrock300 I agree, I often find myself at a manual for repair and one off jobs but it is not required to learn the trade. New upcoming machinist will spend most of thier time on a CNC of some sort in a "production" environment. Every manual machine can be used as CNC with modification but not the other way around. Teaching The fundamentals with emphasis on CNC won't limit a student from operating a manual.
Manual machining is a great stepping stone to understanding the CNC... to know what is happening a slow rate, then using a computer program to speed up where possible is a skill in efficiency
I was lucky enough to to start in 1984 in a proto-type shop, all manual lathes, grinders, die sinker edm and mills. Got Red Seals in both machinist and tool and die maker. Learned cnc very very well on the job with Pratt & Whitney Canada during the 12(1989-2001) years i spent there as a manufacturing engineer and tooling designer.
Schools have gone retarded with down playing manual machining. The core skills you attain whist doing your entire apprenticeship with a Croatian tool and die maker then add cnc everything you need to produce jet engines....kinda makes me a hotrod in these trades.
I'm a college student in Serbia and simultaneously I work for a "small" cnc shop that has 5 cnc machines and 2 manuals. I was put on a cnc on my day one and all I knew is to press a button and change the parts. Two months later I'm setting up one machine and operating the second one at the same time all thanks to my colleague thats a 2 years older than me and a great teacher. As for the manual machines we only use them for roughing material to set em up for cnc. I'm now working there for 5 months and already learning programming the machines as well as clearing all my college exams. Manuals didn't help me much if at all to learn the fundamentals, for me cnc is definitely the future and I know few years from now I will be a great machinist. It's not easy and it takes great dedication but definitely worth it.
i'm a student learning about machining, i started two years ago on cnc lathes, and because our equipment isn't very good, i never really felt like manual was as fast or precise as i wanted. last year my friend and i started working with a haas mini mill, and ever since, i've used the thing nearly every day. CNC is simply the way to go. you get to decide with immense precision what your width and depth of cut are. you get to decide your feed rate. on a manual mill, these things are much more difficult.
I started in manual machining and worked up to CNC then programming. I have worked in all the different industries and held the tightest of tolerances. I truly believe that it depends on the employee you want to make. If you start someone off in CNC or even programming they have no idea what the difference is between a climb cut or conventional cut or the reason of why or when to use them. I think they need to walk before they run by starting with manual machining. I also think there will always be a place for manual machines in shops for quick simple operations. Now if your goal is to make a push button operator that just changes out parts all day then go ahead and start them on a CNC. They may be able to learn as much as a manual machinist but the learning process is stacked against them. Its like starting a book in the middle.
I swear, the feeling it in your feet is something that I understand in my soul. I mainly rely on sound and feeling it all in my chest though. At earlier shops in my journey, they worked us hard and they programmed bad. You could tell the difference between a sharp edge on an apk insert and when it starts to dull before it breaks by the pitch of the cutter, and how it would eventually sound like a motorcycle engine. Same with drills. If the squeal hit a certain pitch, you knew to feed hold, reset and slowly back off Z fast or you would get drilled by the supervisor who had never ran a machine in his life. You had to unless you wanted a difficult time.
Sound is huge. Running 4 and 5 axis it's much more important than sight. I more use sight to inspect a part after for signs of tool wear, or more commonly, as a quick way to find which tool cuts which feature, and how, when we're OOS.