Of course, the maker's imagination and dealing with the qualities of wood are very necessary. After 12 years have passed since I made my first violin, I realized this. I support your opinion, my friend. Thank you.
I love your work and take on everything you talk about the violin , little extras that you demonstrate ,beautifull job , thank you , very inspiring ! Great timing !
I’m so glad that you included this ‘real time’ video. This really helped me sort it all out. BTW I had two violins regraduated. That is, the tops were taken off and the plate thinned. This really made all of the difference in the world. Completely changed the sound of these two instruments for the better.
Thanks, I do these videos because violin making is something I love - also working on my own I have nobody to talk to, so I always think of it as you guys joining me for a cup of tea and a chat in the workshop! Sometimes I wish the videos were a bit better and you could see things a bit more clearly, good to hear they work for you.
@@grahamvincentviolins not many people reply, thanks. I used to play a French horn, guitar and piano, always wanted to learn to play the violin, too old now, and retired so money is short. One thing I do regret though. A friend made and repaired harpsichords, me, I write computer programs these days and write novels.
Enjoyed the video very much. Hopefully I absorbed some of the techniques and information that you have so very generously shared! Thank you so very much, Sir!
Bonjour Vincent.. oh là là que ce petit rabot taille bien… ça parait si simple..je viens de voir la vidéo pour affûter les lames 🙏 Très ingénieux le gabarit d’épaisseur de façades , et aussi le support de façades pour travailler 🤩 j’ai beaucoup de choses à faire.. je vous remercie d’avoir la patience d’expliquer tout ça ..🙏🙏 ❤🎻🎻🎻
Very interesting work. I had seen pictures of Stradivari's tools but not the marking tool. That gives me a better insight into how he worked. Do you have a video on the tuning of the top. That must take feel and a talented ear. I just found a better set of photos of the tools showing the marking tool.
YES - plate thickness does matter! I am a retired professional concert level violist / violinist. I have played instruments with various plate thicknesses from student level to great instruments. The great ones were extremely lighter and plates were indeed thinner!!! It would make more sense to use a modern computerized CNC stationary router to get the exact and precise cuts of the plates and purfling.
Hi, it matters, but as I say in the video, you cannot just adopt the thicknesses from one instrument and transfer them to another and expect success. Charts of thicknesses are meaningless on their own without reference to wood density, stiffness, arching countour etc, etc, etc. As for using CNC, you would be even less able to respond to the individual nature of a piece of wood, that's like saying "forget orchestras, just play this great recording". Thanks for the comment though, it does make me realise that maybe I didn't get the point across fully, I think I'll tackle it again in this week's Q&A - you may find the response interesting.
Hello Sir...I always enjoy watching your videos and I'm always amazed by the sharpness of your tools...they cut through like butter...if you ever have the muse...please make a video of how you use your tools sharpen...your way...thank you and hang on :)
The short answer is yes, thickness matters rather a lot. The thinner the top and back are, the more they can deflect and the easier they will resonate with the sound of the instrument being played. It's a delicate balancing act of trying to get the top and back thin while still retaining enough strength to withstand the pressure of the bridge and the forces from being played. The longer answer includes more physics than I understand. The thickness of the top also plays a role in tuning which frequencies the instrument resonates to. Deviation in the thickness of the top throughout the surface can shape how the sound waves propagate through the top. Unfortunately, I did not make it nearly far enough before switching my major in college away from physics, so I can't explain the exact mechanisms of the function. Also, the bass bar and sound post are far, far more important than most people give it credit for. It is essentially what connects the resonating panel (the area between the f-holes) to the rest of the panels of the instrument and allows the entire thing to form a resonating body. Another thing that I find interesting is that some luthiers have such an understanding of the resonant peaks associated with their top and bottom designs such that they can tune the individual panels by adhering small little rounds or diamonds of a relatively dense wood and then carving them down to an unobtrusive shape so they lightly dampen the vibrations in that area to remove unwanted harmonics. THESE are the kinds of niche knowledge that you should be seeking out other luthiers for. You can ignore the high-minded prescriptivism. If they can't justify why they do something, then they don't understand it. But some craftspeople really dig deep into why they should care about tradition and they learn why certain designs are the way that they are. It's by knowing why things work the way that they do that you can then break those rules with impunity, knowing to some degree what you can expect to happen.
Thank you for your thoughts and opinions, always interesting to hear. I suspect I will probably carry on in my own flawed way regardless - it does bring great results, and "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" after all. However, I am always interested to hear others' comments - I've learned a lot that way. I think you'll enjoy the next couple of months of strange ideas and experimentation.
@@grahamvincentviolins I've seen some interesting preliminary thicknessing guides that some luthiers use when making their violin tops and backs. I've also seen some people go particularly crazy in testing the resonance of their tops and backs through various means of measurement and visualization. In the end, what matters is whether your methods produce a product that you are happy with. You can always try other methods and see if they actually make any difference or improvement, but you shouldn't feel compelled to do so if you're already getting results you're happy with. If anything, I'd say try alternate profiles only out of curiosity's sake.
Good video, learned a couple of things. Any chance of a tutorial on sharpening finger planes, mine are starting to loose their edge. Starting on violin 6 today.
Love that pin type device. I've seen quite a few videos where people use those long armed caplier things, complete with dial guages. Not only does it look very time consuming but the guage itself looks quite expensive. That pin on a lever is something I could build myself. I'm starting to believe I could actually make a violin with just the tools I already have. I think the pin thing could also be adapted to have a bearing below and pencil on top so that it becomes a combination of both tools.
Hi Ken, people do get obsessed with tools (I'm guilty of that!!) but I was seriously thinking about doing a video showing me making a fiddle by hand with only the very most basic tools.
question ? do you think the thickness matters in the aging of the violin . ive heard that thin violins sound great when there new but as they age the sound drops off . how ever a strad is pretty thin and after 200 years or so give or take with repairs and numbers of owners still sound beautiful . i have also heard that a thicker violin will sound ok new and get better with age as it gets older it sounds better and better . what are your thoughts on that ?
Hi, I own an old French violin that was built very thin so it'd sound good under the ear in the shop, but it's not so good now! My personal opinion (without a lot of data to back it up) is that ringy wood will work with a range of thicknesses, more dull sounding wood can be made to work by making the parts fairly thin, but the sound will be unreliable - wolf notes etc etc.
@@grahamvincentviolins ok makes sense . thank you for taking the time to answer my little questions . i dont know if ill ever make a violin . but if i do i want to try to do it right . i been watching the violin makers here on you tube for a couple years now . and have seen some beautiful violins made . i have no interest in playing one but the idea of the work it takes to make one is a addiction . it calls to me . i hope maybe you can understand that . i just wish it would have called a little earlier in my life .
Ha! Yes, sorry but the "no editing" policy was strictly in force for this one... and tbh I thought it was funny - but now I'm concerned that I might be unsettling any viewers and the idea of wasting any beer is a real worry!!
Very interesting! Your best video yet! I am in the middle of thicknessing a sitka spruce top. I kind of follow Davide Sora who prefers gouges (but does most of the work with a shallow #3 scoop) But I might consider trying your finger plane approach if I could ever get my finger planes working consistently. These planes are expensive and finicky... I do use the Strad point marker as you do... I think it's a great tool... worth the effort of building it.
Thanks for the kind comments! I will do a video showing how I sharpen things soon, hope that helps get your planes working, it's the angles, bevels and honing that makes the difference. I have three thumbplanes I made myself and a couple of cheap brass ones that I have managed to fettle into being good tools. I mainly use my gouges for edgework and scrolls I think.
@@grahamvincentviolins Perhaps sometime you could turn on the camera while doing some part of the belly or back arching. It always interesting to see how makers approach this.
Gervase, I recently acquired a cheap knock off finger plane and learned a few surprising things that may help. One was that I was surprised it takes a bit of work to sharpen a curved blade. It was sharp enough when it arrived, but I did the usual drill of flattening the back before working on a primary and secondary bevel, etc. Sharpening compound on leather finished it well. Second, I was surprised to find that my plane required the toe of the sole to be held firmly down, very much in contrast to a standard plane which takes pressure in the area just behind the blade. And finally, on mine, the blade is set surprisingly aggressively for it to work, although that will depend on your plane's curvature.
@@Disappointed739 My problem with the cheap knock offs is the amount of work needed to get them functioning at all. I have 4 and it's often a matter of fitting a new wedge or grinding down a cap screw...
How do you know the thickness is 'optimum ' for producing sound on that particular piece of wood . Surely there must be a sound check to ensure correct thickness or do you just hope ?
Hi! I choose good, resilient, "ringy" wood and I thin the wood until I'm happy that there's a good degree of flexibility but still sufficient structure to be stable. I don't have a particular sound check, but my choices are based on feel and experience rather than hope. If the front was the only part of the violin producing sound then maybe the sound of the front on its own might be more important. I believe it's just one component in a complex structure that produces sound. As I've said many times, you'll find as many different opinions as violin makers and all of this is just my opinion. I'm not trying to tell people they should do it this way, I'm just opening the workshop door to let you see how one maker produces violins.
Hi Poppy, that will depend completely on how the plate feels. I know how flexible I like the front and back to feel in my hands and if they still feel too stiff I will take a bit more off. From memory, I think this one didn't need any more removed.
Not agree. I think the pressure that that nail or screw applies on the plate might influence the texture of the wood and its vibrating behavior. It literally punches the wood and changes its density at many points.
Thank you for your comment. I don't think the effect you describe is significant. Stradivarius is known to have used this method and his violins seem to sound ok.
Why wouldn't you start with a chisel instead of a thumb plane? It seems that thumb plane would seriously take too long. I also notice you're not just going in one direction. Does wood grain direction matter?
Opinion. Subjective, not objective. Best to say "I believe 2.4mm is too thin". I, however was the one with that particular piece of timber in my hands, flexing and judging its unique character.
Of course, the maker's imagination and dealing with the qualities of wood are very necessary. After 12 years have passed since I made my first violin, I realized this. I support your opinion, my friend. Thank you.
I love your work and take on everything you talk about the violin , little extras that you demonstrate ,beautifull job , thank you , very inspiring ! Great timing !
Thanks very much, much appreciated!
I’m so glad that you included this ‘real time’ video. This really helped me sort it all out. BTW I had two violins regraduated. That is, the tops were taken off and the plate thinned. This really made all of the difference in the world. Completely changed the sound of these two instruments for the better.
In that, thickness does matter.
Very good, a no-nonsense approach and quite fast too! I was expecting it to take a lot longer, but 40 minutes in experienced hands .. impressed.
Thank you sir!
I did enjoy the video, it was refreshing to see someone care more about their work than making the video perfect. Have subscribed and liked
Thanks, I do these videos because violin making is something I love - also working on my own I have nobody to talk to, so I always think of it as you guys joining me for a cup of tea and a chat in the workshop! Sometimes I wish the videos were a bit better and you could see things a bit more clearly, good to hear they work for you.
@@grahamvincentviolins not many people reply, thanks. I used to play a French horn, guitar and piano, always wanted to learn to play the violin, too old now, and retired so money is short. One thing I do regret though. A friend made and repaired harpsichords, me, I write computer programs these days and write novels.
This is incredibly fascinating to watch!
thanks!!
Enjoyed the video very much. Hopefully I absorbed some of the techniques and information that you have so very generously shared! Thank you so very much, Sir!
Very interesting the pencil thickness tool and the pin tool you make this process look like a walk in the park...
Thanks, those marking tools certainly help. As ever, SHARP tools do the work with half the effort!
Brilliantly done! A fine explanation about thicknessing.
Thank you for your generosity. 🦬
Thanks, kind of you to say so!
Bonjour Vincent.. oh là là que ce petit rabot taille bien… ça parait si simple..je viens de voir la vidéo pour affûter les lames 🙏
Très ingénieux le gabarit d’épaisseur de façades , et aussi le support de façades pour travailler 🤩 j’ai beaucoup de choses à faire.. je vous remercie d’avoir la patience d’expliquer tout ça ..🙏🙏 ❤🎻🎻🎻
Avec plaisir, content d'avoir aidé.
Satisfying to watch
Very interesting material...and inspiring!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Fascinating, many thanks for sharing! Cheers!
Very interesting work. I had seen pictures of Stradivari's tools but not the marking tool. That gives me a better insight into how he worked. Do you have a video on the tuning of the top. That must take feel and a talented ear. I just found a better set of photos of the tools showing the marking tool.
YES - plate thickness does matter! I am a retired professional concert level violist / violinist. I have played instruments with various plate thicknesses from student level to great instruments. The great ones were extremely lighter and plates were indeed thinner!!! It would make more sense to use a modern computerized CNC stationary router to get the exact and precise cuts of the plates and purfling.
Hi, it matters, but as I say in the video, you cannot just adopt the thicknesses from one instrument and transfer them to another and expect success. Charts of thicknesses are meaningless on their own without reference to wood density, stiffness, arching countour etc, etc, etc. As for using CNC, you would be even less able to respond to the individual nature of a piece of wood, that's like saying "forget orchestras, just play this great recording". Thanks for the comment though, it does make me realise that maybe I didn't get the point across fully, I think I'll tackle it again in this week's Q&A - you may find the response interesting.
Fantástico. Ingeniosa forma de marcar profundad para acotar el grosor de la madera.
Gracias, siempre intento trabajar a mano, pero también me gusta intentar hacer las cosas más fáciles!
Hello Sir...I always enjoy watching your videos and I'm always amazed by the sharpness of your tools...they cut through like butter...if you ever have the muse...please make a video of how you use your tools sharpen...your way...thank you and hang on :)
Yes! I already have it in mind to do a long video on sharpening, it's such a core skill.
This looks like the tough bit to me. Cool stuff! Thanks! 😎
Not too tough if your blades are sharp.
@@grahamvincentviolins Yours obviously are very sharp. Hey! I just tried Picknell’s March. A very nice tune. Thanks!
Takes me a day or more!!
The short answer is yes, thickness matters rather a lot. The thinner the top and back are, the more they can deflect and the easier they will resonate with the sound of the instrument being played. It's a delicate balancing act of trying to get the top and back thin while still retaining enough strength to withstand the pressure of the bridge and the forces from being played.
The longer answer includes more physics than I understand. The thickness of the top also plays a role in tuning which frequencies the instrument resonates to. Deviation in the thickness of the top throughout the surface can shape how the sound waves propagate through the top. Unfortunately, I did not make it nearly far enough before switching my major in college away from physics, so I can't explain the exact mechanisms of the function. Also, the bass bar and sound post are far, far more important than most people give it credit for. It is essentially what connects the resonating panel (the area between the f-holes) to the rest of the panels of the instrument and allows the entire thing to form a resonating body. Another thing that I find interesting is that some luthiers have such an understanding of the resonant peaks associated with their top and bottom designs such that they can tune the individual panels by adhering small little rounds or diamonds of a relatively dense wood and then carving them down to an unobtrusive shape so they lightly dampen the vibrations in that area to remove unwanted harmonics.
THESE are the kinds of niche knowledge that you should be seeking out other luthiers for. You can ignore the high-minded prescriptivism. If they can't justify why they do something, then they don't understand it. But some craftspeople really dig deep into why they should care about tradition and they learn why certain designs are the way that they are. It's by knowing why things work the way that they do that you can then break those rules with impunity, knowing to some degree what you can expect to happen.
Thank you for your thoughts and opinions, always interesting to hear. I suspect I will probably carry on in my own flawed way regardless - it does bring great results, and "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" after all. However, I am always interested to hear others' comments - I've learned a lot that way. I think you'll enjoy the next couple of months of strange ideas and experimentation.
@@grahamvincentviolins I've seen some interesting preliminary thicknessing guides that some luthiers use when making their violin tops and backs. I've also seen some people go particularly crazy in testing the resonance of their tops and backs through various means of measurement and visualization. In the end, what matters is whether your methods produce a product that you are happy with. You can always try other methods and see if they actually make any difference or improvement, but you shouldn't feel compelled to do so if you're already getting results you're happy with. If anything, I'd say try alternate profiles only out of curiosity's sake.
Good video, learned a couple of things. Any chance of a tutorial on sharpening finger planes, mine are starting to loose their edge. Starting on violin 6 today.
Thanks! Yes, why not, sharpening is pretty important after all.
Love that pin type device. I've seen quite a few videos where people use those long armed caplier things, complete with dial guages. Not only does it look very time consuming but the guage itself looks quite expensive. That pin on a lever is something I could build myself. I'm starting to believe I could actually make a violin with just the tools I already have. I think the pin thing could also be adapted to have a bearing below and pencil on top so that it becomes a combination of both tools.
Hi Ken, people do get obsessed with tools (I'm guilty of that!!) but I was seriously thinking about doing a video showing me making a fiddle by hand with only the very most basic tools.
question ? do you think the thickness matters in the aging of the violin . ive heard that thin violins sound great when there new but as they age the sound drops off . how ever a strad is pretty thin and after 200 years or so give or take with repairs and numbers of owners still sound beautiful . i have also heard that a thicker violin will sound ok new and get better with age as it gets older it sounds better and better . what are your thoughts on that ?
Hi, I own an old French violin that was built very thin so it'd sound good under the ear in the shop, but it's not so good now!
My personal opinion (without a lot of data to back it up) is that ringy wood will work with a range of thicknesses, more dull sounding wood can be made to work by making the parts fairly thin, but the sound will be unreliable - wolf notes etc etc.
@@grahamvincentviolins ok makes sense . thank you for taking the time to answer my little questions . i dont know if ill ever make a violin . but if i do i want to try to do it right . i been watching the violin makers here on you tube for a couple years now . and have seen some beautiful violins made . i have no interest in playing one but the idea of the work it takes to make one is a addiction . it calls to me . i hope maybe you can understand that . i just wish it would have called a little earlier in my life .
For a second there I couldn't tell whether it was me or the camera who'd fallen over. But I was still holding my pint, so it could go either way.
Ha! Yes, sorry but the "no editing" policy was strictly in force for this one... and tbh I thought it was funny - but now I'm concerned that I might be unsettling any viewers and the idea of wasting any beer is a real worry!!
@@grahamvincentviolinsHa.
Very interesting! Your best video yet! I am in the middle of thicknessing a sitka spruce top. I kind of follow Davide Sora who prefers gouges (but does most of the work with a shallow #3 scoop) But I might consider trying your finger plane approach if I could ever get my finger planes working consistently. These planes are expensive and finicky... I do use the Strad point marker as you do... I think it's a great tool... worth the effort of building it.
Thanks for the kind comments! I will do a video showing how I sharpen things soon, hope that helps get your planes working, it's the angles, bevels and honing that makes the difference. I have three thumbplanes I made myself and a couple of cheap brass ones that I have managed to fettle into being good tools. I mainly use my gouges for edgework and scrolls I think.
@@grahamvincentviolins Perhaps sometime you could turn on the camera while doing some part of the belly or back arching. It always interesting to see how makers approach this.
@@gervasegallant Will do. It'll probably at least six weeks before I'm doing any, but I'll try to remember!
Gervase, I recently acquired a cheap knock off finger plane and learned a few surprising things that may help. One was that I was surprised it takes a bit of work to sharpen a curved blade. It was sharp enough when it arrived, but I did the usual drill of flattening the back before working on a primary and secondary bevel, etc. Sharpening compound on leather finished it well. Second, I was surprised to find that my plane required the toe of the sole to be held firmly down, very much in contrast to a standard plane which takes pressure in the area just behind the blade. And finally, on mine, the blade is set surprisingly aggressively for it to work, although that will depend on your plane's curvature.
@@Disappointed739 My problem with the cheap knock offs is the amount of work needed to get them functioning at all. I have 4 and it's often a matter of fitting a new wedge or grinding down a cap screw...
How do you know the thickness is 'optimum ' for producing sound on that particular piece of wood . Surely there must be a sound check to ensure correct thickness or do you just hope ?
Hi! I choose good, resilient, "ringy" wood and I thin the wood until I'm happy that there's a good degree of flexibility but still sufficient structure to be stable. I don't have a particular sound check, but my choices are based on feel and experience rather than hope. If the front was the only part of the violin producing sound then maybe the sound of the front on its own might be more important. I believe it's just one component in a complex structure that produces sound. As I've said many times, you'll find as many different opinions as violin makers and all of this is just my opinion. I'm not trying to tell people they should do it this way, I'm just opening the workshop door to let you see how one maker produces violins.
@@grahamvincentviolinsI thank you for that.
is the top plate complete or do you do additional graduating the cavities that are now all at the same thickness?
Hi Poppy, that will depend completely on how the plate feels. I know how flexible I like the front and back to feel in my hands and if they still feel too stiff I will take a bit more off. From memory, I think this one didn't need any more removed.
Not agree. I think the pressure that that nail or screw applies on the plate might influence the texture of the wood and its vibrating behavior. It literally punches the wood and changes its density at many points.
Thank you for your comment. I don't think the effect you describe is significant. Stradivarius is known to have used this method and his violins seem to sound ok.
Is the wood from a tabletop?
No, it was a drawer side. I've used wood from all sorts of places!!
Very cool😊
Why wouldn't you start with a chisel instead of a thumb plane? It seems that thumb plane would seriously take too long.
I also notice you're not just going in one direction. Does wood grain direction matter?
In parts of the centre, 2.4mm is TOO thin ..!!
Opinion. Subjective, not objective. Best to say "I believe 2.4mm is too thin". I, however was the one with that particular piece of timber in my hands, flexing and judging its unique character.
Sure….but under the sound post?
You are in a hurry hurry mode.
Haha, no - this is how I like to work!