I'm glad you bring this subject up. I recently joined a couple of violin related groups on social media. One of them offers opinions on instruments for identification purposes. All I ever see is comments like: it's mass produced junk, early 20th century mass produced, worthless, garbage, etc. Nobody offers ANY encouragement to the instrument they own. So what if it's an early 1900s German violin, a copy of some other maker or not. Who cares? Does it sound good? Is it fun to play?
I play a cheap student violin that happens to be setup right, and I couldn’t agree more. It sounds pretty good, my instructor praises it and I feel good about it. Cussing a fiddle is just a copout.
I have a newer violin, and I really enjoy how warm and comforting it sounds. Like the sunrise, it is hearty and good for the soul. It's what I feel inside. I had always wanted an older violin with history, but it's so hard to get a hold of them. Even at a lower price range. I would appreciate any of them. Because to me, these instruments give me so much joy. If anyone hates what they have, send it to me, I'll make sure it doesn't go to waste.
Back in the 1990’s I repaired a violin made by the harmony guitar company. Harmony company was known for making low quality instruments for beginner musicians. I repaired this violin for my cousin as was In a paper bag in which every part it had came unglued. You could still see the visible saw marks inside the instrument where it was made. I did the minimum amount work to put it back together and to my amazement it was one of the best sounding violins I’ve ever seen.
Started classical, got into folk and returned to classical and feel very much in agreement with your views here. We have a wonderful history of luthiery we should respect and learn from but it should never stultify invention and creativity
I've had similar experiences on social media. Unfortunately, I've usually found that it isn't worth continuing to participate. I think a problem with bowed string instruments is that they're relatively expensive compared with, for example, guitars or brass instruments, and that expensive instruments are often viewed as status symbols. I play several instruments, including bowed string instruments, and simply can't afford to buy top-of-line instruments for each of the ones I play. My violins, viola and cello are mass produced instruments in the low- to mid-range with respect to price and while I appreciate craftsmanship very much, I don't feel restricted by the quality of the instruments. I also think the uniformity in the sound of instruments, playing techniques, education, etc., makes for boring music.
I like the way you handled this! Having spent many years attending Oberlin Violin Restoration Workshop, I have seen many approaches to violin making and restoration. So many things are the not wrong approach, it is just a different way of achieving a goal. Thank you for what you are doing!
Just stumbled across your video and enjoyed listening to your thoughts. What you describe is certainly not just a problem in the violin world. I’m a pianist and a recent online discussion on piano makers that I participated in took the same turn. I was always a fan of the American brand Baldwin. Very distinctive instruments, really don’t sound like any other piano. Unique designs. But really lovely instruments. Of course the Steinway crowd had to get a little ugly. Very sad.
I remember seeing Baldwin pianos around in the US many years ago. Some years ago I had the opportunity to practice regularly on a small Steinway grand and it was a very fine instrument, but I get tired of always hearing the Steinway sound. My favorite piano that I was able to play regularly was a Bechstein, which had a much different sound (and also smelled strongly of hide glue). I believe that Steinways are designed to sound homogeneous in all registers and also to be loud, and those things are the opposite of what I usually want.
I've heard a good rule of thumb when selling artistic things you've made: charge cheap at first, and if it sells double the price of the next one. Keep going until your stuff stops selling, then stick at that penultimate price. That way, you start out inexpensive, and if your stuff takes off, the people who bought early will congratulate themselves at the lucky bargain they got and spread the word of your quality. If you start expensive and have to drop your prices because you overvalued yourself, that will make the people who bought first annoyed and thinking they got taken for a ride, and they'll spread a much more dissatisfied word. Start cheap and double your prices until your stuff doesn't sell. Then, back your prices up one step and park there.
I totally agree with what you said. Your group is the only Violin group I post my work in because of those type of people. I have had discussions with people that said it won't sound right because I am not using traditional materials. All I told them was you're right it won't sound like every other violin, if it did it would defeat the purpose of making a unique instrument. I don't think I will ever understand the violin world. Deviate from tradition on a violin and some (a lot of) people lose their minds, make a guitar out of anything you want and no one cares. And thank you very much for the compliment!
I did my training as a guitar maker - as you say, anything from a Flying V to a parlour acoustic and people are happy! I like to think our little group is helping foster a more nurturing environment for the violin outcasts!!
@@grahamvincentviolinsgreat! I’m friends with the daughter of Augustino Loprinzi. She made a ukulele for me that is damn near perfect, out of maple and spruce like a violin. 🎻
You know, its not the same thing as an online comment, but in face to face situations i have noticed some old trick in some people, it consists on frowning upon the instrument in order to get it cheaper 😂 I handled this viola to a local teacher and she made absolutely random and contradictory statements about it. Moments Later she asked me three times how much it was😂 and she wouldn't stop playing it... I got that as a hint, if it was that bad why you insist so much on its pricing 😂 I didnt want to sell it yet because its my first one, i truly love how it came out and want to see how it evolves with months....Some days later i played on an orchestral master class and handled it to my classmates, everyone loved it! This made me realise sometimes people use some kind of negotiation tricks without the ettiquete or conversational abilities to pull these off convincely 😅 In my years making instruments (mostly guitars) i have sold 100% of my work and i see people raising its prices a lot if they decide to resell these so, reality is confusing sometimes😅
I've quit all the luthiers groups on facebook, too many close minded people and too many arguments about tonewood. I appreciate your views and I like your approach, I build bass guitars and am making some forays into electric uprights, hoping one day to build a few double basses but I might need a bigger workshop. Subscribed😊
I really dont pay much notice to the blinkered view of some people, they must be infuriated most of the time because most things wont live up to their high expectations. I posted a pic of my first violin build on a beginners fiddle player group, made from cherry i thought it looked really nice, and within ten minutes i had an offer from someone in the states that wanted to buy it! I was shocked to say the least but I'd never sell my first, also im learning to play on it so I'd have nothing to play 😂.
I am a guitar player and maker, and it is no different in this world. Fanatical, tradition cultists. What comes to mind is something I’ve heard about cameras, and that’s true about many things: the best camera is the one you have.
I definitely agree. Particularly outside the classical orchestra (where conformity is expected) there should be different interpretations, approaches and design elements. Different woods and design elements can give different sounding violins, which might give a violin that suits a particular style or player more. Corner less violins or alternative (more contemporary) shaped pegbox and scroll or non-traditional woods get slammed by some people for being different and therefore not acceptable but they may be far more appropriate for a purpose. Should a fiddle for swamp blues or contemporary acoustic folk or whatever look and sound the same as a classical standard modelled after rebuilds of baroque violins in the 18th and 19th centuries?
This is a valuable, important, discussion. Thank you. On the flip side, my first instrument, not a violin, was praised to the hilt by several very professional player/ performers. This made it very difficult to enter the market as I started with a distorted idea of the value of my instruments. Also, artists and artisans tend to have poor business skills. Though your video waffles a bit the essence is invaluable info for those starting out as luthiers. If ? You are seeking a career, Its all about the market.
I've made a few violins on my own, and once thought about going to violin making school and doing it professionally. Then I realized I didn't want to spend every day of my life making Strad and Del Gesu copies because anything else is "wrong", and chose a different career path. This was long before social media was a thing. There's just something about violins that seems to breed that kind of thinking.
@@nickiemcnichols5397 Not at all. I'm absolutely in the "Strad and Guarneri " camp. That's because I make instruments intended to be used in professional, classical orchestras. I happen to play at a professional standard, and when I can I join the local symphony. But I also play folk music, much more nowadays. I have never been snubbed as much as I have going into Irish sessions as a classical player. Irish session players are the worst. There's a wide range of styles of instrument that could be suitable for folk music. Strads work really well, but one of the best folk instruments I've ever done is actually a cut down viola that was originally 17thC. The guy plays it with something similar to a Tubbs bow.😂 I didn't cut it down, I just did the repairs to make it solid enough to play on. At the end of the day I could pull my drawers apart, make a fiddle out of that and it would be fine for folk music. Same can't be said for classical. Cremonese is really the way to go, and some models are specific in what they should be used for. I wouldn't make a Betts model Strad for someone who wants to have a solo career, nor would I use most Amati patterns. And frankly, I refuse to use original Guarneri patterns. Guarneri models are amazing modified, frankly ordinary unaltered. If you get really technical, later cremonese makers like Guadagnini an Pietro Guarneri have better all-round models than Strads or Guarneris, and the best makers today will have at least one or two models in their line-up. I know a viola maker who pretty well exclusively makes on a Pietro Guarneri pattern. But most people don't even know what a Brescian model violin is. They're brilliant for show pieces and ensemble work, but it would be a stretch using the brescian model violins in a professional orchestra, much less as a solo violin in front of an orchestra (unless you're playing very specific pieces, like Hungarian dances). I hope some of that dispells the snobbery. I know I'm not the only fine instrument maker who likes a good folk session.😂
@@adifferentangle7064I have similar experience, in orchestra and folk, i have seen in general that the best sounding and professional musicians are good adapting to the situation and the instrument they have at hand, don't seem to bother too much, and give great advice. I only found snobbery in people who depends a lot in its particular context, and are somewhat rigid. Also, i have found that folk musicians tend to prefer metal strings, which i dont like so much on violin/viola (but i like these on double basses). There's a lot of variables to try in order to develop a personal style. Would you recommend me some Pietro Guarnieri and Guadagnini violin and viola examples to look for? By now i'm working on a Strad il cremonese violin and recently finished a Ornati viola model, it turned out pretty well.
I finished a stew mac kit, I swapped out the fingerboard for rosewood, and did a light blonde French polished shellac. The number of violinist who had no idea rosewood, or non traditional colors were an option was astounding. Of course I did get a lot of hate for it as well. According to my teacher, who was also a performing violinist at the time, it was well within the intermediate level of violins (I lucked out on getting a good body I guess). I would also like to make a Dutch violin at some point, they are actually doing experimentation, and release their design files
In my own, humble, jaundiced opinion...you are quite correct. I can understand that we all can see something which looks odd and we cannot see its purpose, but that does not make it wrong. We learn by asking 'why it is done that way?' I know precious little about violins but enough to be dangerous of guitars and mandolins. Some luthiers seem wedded to their idea of the perfect bracing system while others adjust to suit the needs of the player. (I am impressed by Turnstone Guitars) but both viewpoints are correct. The first guy is making the guitar that you went to him/her for and the second is using their experience to give you your ideal instrument, as far as they can. Pricing: I paint oil paintings, old fashioned ones. I do well to get £100 for a portrait. Then I hear that artists are selling plain (not blank...) canvases for thousands. If I did that they will sat it's a fake ! The signature sells, like having 'Gibson' on your headstock. Marketing and human nature combine. We just have to be content with what we get.
The big problem is that you really don't know the result untill the very end of work. Although cheap fabric made violins made 100-120 years ago, will sometimes have the right material, a lot of work thinning out front etc reconfigure with full bass clef etc.
Bravo, so many violin makers and much worse the academic types get so hung up and bent out of shape about anything they don't understand. It's almost as if NOTHING new can be done with the violin. Then I think about Kyle Dillingham making an amazing album using broken violins and doing so much more music with much more expression than many of the gatekeepers will ever do in their lifetime of I guess... What? Holding down the fort? Clutching their pearls? Egad! They act as if Stadivari wouldn't have been all over a CNC and Titebond glue if those had been around.
As a lefty with a lefty fiddle, coming from 50yrs of guitar (lefty) before discovering fiddle and falling in love with it, the discrimination and damnation I have had from the ‘classic’ community is heartbreaking. Some examples… I have been openly laughed at, told there is no such thing as a lefty violin, told I would never be able to play anything, barred from orchestra/ensemble, told to grow up and play properly, etc ad infinitum. I can’t even discuss it rationally, I am dismissed wholesale. To say I have been disheartened from the classic/purist violin community is an understatement. Having said that, from the folk/indie community it barely gets a mention or just a shrug. So I must agree that the folk community are indeed more open. As an aside, lefty violins are around in minute numbers, but shoulder and chin rests are almost non existent. ;))
I got away from bowed string instruments for much the same reason -- playing left-handed is practically being in league with the devil, even though if you have a mirror instrument, it makes zero difference. When you listen to them talk about bowing v fingering to each other, they will all say that the bow hand is more important, more expressive, "the bow hand is master and the fingers of the left hand but its servants," etc. But when you are left-handed, suddenly they change their tune and talk about how much "better" it is to use your dominant hand on the fingerboard. It's like they don't even hear themselves. I've always felt that if we took a real look inside of all of those Amatis, Strads, and Guarneris, we'd find definite signs of some of them having had their bass bars glued on the other side.
@@jcortese3300I teach kids to play ukulele, because it’s a gateway instrument. I teach the lefties to play right handed, explaining that they have an advantage this way. It seems to work. I wonder if I should have a left handed ukulele to loan to them for the workshops.???
I agree with the idea of details not being cast in stone. However, the problem pointed out with respect to the round saddle seems like legitimate functional concern. The rebuttal is "that wasn't expressed very nicely". A lot of times, useful advice comes from social jerks and doesn't come sugar coated, it is what it is. Now, about the round saddle, does it get in the way of proper tensioning?
Totally get what you're saying. I don't disagree. Time will tell as to the functioanlity of that saddle, I think it's going to be just fine. I hope so, because it's so very much more elegant than most!
great to see ya Graham buddy . been awhile . my fault im sure . you know i am not the guy that thinks violins should be all the same im sure you know that . i am a artist and i think there is no right or wrong . in fact i have been trying real hard to get one of you violin masters to step up and out of the box . i find it really tough in fact have not found one yet . you have been the closest one i have found that even have considered it . the problem with rules is that they stop growth . they stop imagination . and they stop the love for trying new things . im still waiting to see you get to a point that you are ready to step over the line and create a true Graham one of a kind master piece . i wish i was a rich man i would put you to work so hard . the old masters would cry from there graves . first thing i would have you do is throw out the rule book . because until you do your just making someone else's work . well hey man lots of love and good wishes and god bless ya buddy . dont worry about what others think there opinions like my own dont matter . the only thing that matters is your love for the art and creation .
To be fair I'd be a little concerned about a saddle with that particular shape because I would wonder how the tailpiece could remain completely stable over it. Having said that I am not sure how anyone can say that the saddle is even original which completely negates any argument about the worth of the instrument. When I saw it the first thought I had was Scottish or English though I am not sure it is of Hardie calibre.
Hi, Hardie seems to have made violins over a range of qualities. I don't think this is one of his top flight violins, but it's way better than the average factory fiddle whoever made it. Saddle looks to fit nicely with the age and feel of the instrument, but as you say, hard to tell. I don't think I discussed "worth" of the instrument, I'm more concerned by and was talking about its potential as a violin, as a tool for music and its quality as a piece of work. With regard to the saddle and how it works, time will tell. I'm expecting it to have a negligible effect.
- somebody played it.. loved it and valued it so much to have multiple repairs, it’s gotta be a good un . (But that’s only, my opinion )🤪- but what do I know.. I’m a trombone player 😂
If you gatekeep and take a prescriptivist approach to a community then the creativity within that community dies out. Violins have been around for literally centuries and we SHOULD have extant examples made in hundreds or thousands of different styles and wood combinations, but because of the gatekeeping of the community, it's relatively rare to find these novel violins because the luthiers all followed the tradition to a T without experimenting to see if they could make something special for themselves. I like your content because you go out on a limb and try new things. Even if the overall form is maintained to make it easier to tune, the fact that you try different wood combinations is already something that sets you apart from others in what I consider a very good way. On a side note, I'd love to see a violin with an olivewood back. I doubt it's resonant enough to make for a very good top material, but for the back and sides, it should be hard enough and the color and figure of the wood is quite lovely.
I knew a luthier who made a ukulele from oak wood. I called it an “oakulele”. It looked and sounded great. I almost bought it. He had another he made from pecan wood.🪵 I used to have a ukulele made from spruce and maple like a 🎻 violin. I think violin makers could learn a thing or two from ukulele makers. The first one is respect. Koa wood from Hawaii has been the holy grail for decades, however, the best sounding instrument in our house is a ukulele built of mahogany wood.
@@nickiemcnichols5397 It doesn't change the tuning, but it does change the timbre, so the sound is quite different and lovely. Dude's applewood violins sounded really cool.
All I know is that if a violin works for me, I don't care what other people make of it. One of the attractions of the violin is how differently similar-looking instruments can sound to each other, and how differently the same instrument can sound when played by different players. There is no more individual an instrument than a violin. Even the dirt-cheap Chinese mass-manufactured ones play differently. And one of the reasons is that however similar they seem, violins all differ from each other in some detail; either variations on a basic pattern produced accidentally or deliberately by a single maker; or the differences in style between one maker and another. Which means it is silly, for example, to reject a Stainer because it is not a Strad, or a tin fiddle because it is not made of wood. The joy of violins is that there is no fixed criteria for quality or craftsmanship. These righteous folk need to learn that violins, like people, have characters, personalities, and looks, of their own.
I think that the word you couldn't quite remember was *exacerbate.* I think if I were making instruments, I'd be inclined to make three grades: student, professional musician, and heirloom. The craftsmanship would be the same in all grades, just the materials would vary according to grade.
Modified versions of violins that don’t work are as important for the development of a violin maker as accuracy of reproduction of successful instruments. I’m a very big bloke and play violin (and viola). The variation in violas is much more accepted.
Well said. Legalistic rant again 🙄😵💫 we should never think we’re right at the cost of other peoples feelings and viewpoints without valid tested exposition and argument. Even then, we should be open to b wrong. Of course, I hope the contributor is not to put out by this and that they can understand the issue amicably
I totally agree with you. Most things can be done in different ways, and no way is wrong if it works for you. I'm not a violin maker, I'm just a curous person who try many things. I have buit one violin, just as an experiment to see if I was able to do it. My grandfather vas a violinmaker, he died when I was tree years old, but I can remember tha he worked on violins, so I thought I would se if I also could manage to build a violin. I watched many youtube videoes about it an found a guy that I liked very much, he explained the prosess in a way that everyone can understand, and he has found his metodes to do things in hs own way. That is very good I think. So take a look here, I think you'll find it very interesting. th-cam.com/video/AQrUlW5HZkw/w-d-xo.html
you are now the 2nd generation! that's something to be proud, my grandfather was an artisan (outstanding leather work and kitchenware) i wasn't able to meet him but since i started, the craft felt warmly familiar to me, like if i knew what to do next and even how (in some cases) if i cleared my mind. I'm the casual succesor of an old italian violinmaker across my street, a totally casual thing but very meaningful if i think about it. I got to talk to him sometimes, and now i feel like he aproves what i do from the other side. Same with you and i would dare to say, with every modern artisan too. Congratulations on your instrument!👏👏👏
I'm glad you bring this subject up. I recently joined a couple of violin related groups on social media. One of them offers opinions on instruments for identification purposes. All I ever see is comments like: it's mass produced junk, early 20th century mass produced, worthless, garbage, etc. Nobody offers ANY encouragement to the instrument they own. So what if it's an early 1900s German violin, a copy of some other maker or not. Who cares? Does it sound good? Is it fun to play?
I play a cheap student violin that happens to be setup right, and I couldn’t agree more. It sounds pretty good, my instructor praises it and I feel good about it. Cussing a fiddle is just a copout.
I have a newer violin, and I really enjoy how warm and comforting it sounds. Like the sunrise, it is hearty and good for the soul. It's what I feel inside. I had always wanted an older violin with history, but it's so hard to get a hold of them. Even at a lower price range. I would appreciate any of them. Because to me, these instruments give me so much joy. If anyone hates what they have, send it to me, I'll make sure it doesn't go to waste.
Back in the 1990’s I repaired a violin made by the harmony guitar company. Harmony company was known for making low quality instruments for beginner musicians. I repaired this violin for my cousin as was
In a paper bag in which every part it had came unglued.
You could still see the visible saw marks inside the instrument where it was made. I did the minimum amount work to put it back together and to my amazement it was one of the best sounding violins I’ve ever seen.
Started classical, got into folk and returned to classical and feel very much in agreement with your views here. We have a wonderful history of luthiery we should respect and learn from but it should never stultify invention and creativity
I've had similar experiences on social media. Unfortunately, I've usually found that it isn't worth continuing to participate. I think a problem with bowed string instruments is that they're relatively expensive compared with, for example, guitars or brass instruments, and that expensive instruments are often viewed as status symbols. I play several instruments, including bowed string instruments, and simply can't afford to buy top-of-line instruments for each of the ones I play. My violins, viola and cello are mass produced instruments in the low- to mid-range with respect to price and while I appreciate craftsmanship very much, I don't feel restricted by the quality of the instruments.
I also think the uniformity in the sound of instruments, playing techniques, education, etc., makes for boring music.
Thanks for this, Graham. I (mandolin player) just stumbled upon your channel here, and am now subscribed.
Welcome aboard!
I like the way you handled this! Having spent many years attending Oberlin Violin Restoration Workshop, I have seen many approaches to violin making and restoration. So many things are the not wrong approach, it is just a different way of achieving a goal. Thank you for what you are doing!
Totally agree. If we don't keep an open mind to new ideas and techniques how will we ever progress.
Just stumbled across your video and enjoyed listening to your thoughts. What you describe is certainly not just a problem in the violin world. I’m a pianist and a recent online discussion on piano makers that I participated in took the same turn. I was always a fan of the American brand Baldwin. Very distinctive instruments, really don’t sound like any other piano. Unique designs. But really lovely instruments. Of course the Steinway crowd had to get a little ugly. Very sad.
I agree. One of my best friends swears by Baldwin pianos.
I remember seeing Baldwin pianos around in the US many years ago. Some years ago I had the opportunity to practice regularly on a small Steinway grand and it was a very fine instrument, but I get tired of always hearing the Steinway sound. My favorite piano that I was able to play regularly was a Bechstein, which had a much different sound (and also smelled strongly of hide glue). I believe that Steinways are designed to sound homogeneous in all registers and also to be loud, and those things are the opposite of what I usually want.
Modesty and respect. Perhaps one day people will decide bragging, bullying and greed don't look as good. That would be nice.
I've heard a good rule of thumb when selling artistic things you've made: charge cheap at first, and if it sells double the price of the next one. Keep going until your stuff stops selling, then stick at that penultimate price.
That way, you start out inexpensive, and if your stuff takes off, the people who bought early will congratulate themselves at the lucky bargain they got and spread the word of your quality. If you start expensive and have to drop your prices because you overvalued yourself, that will make the people who bought first annoyed and thinking they got taken for a ride, and they'll spread a much more dissatisfied word.
Start cheap and double your prices until your stuff doesn't sell. Then, back your prices up one step and park there.
I totally agree with what you said. Your group is the only Violin group I post my work in because of those type of people. I have had discussions with people that said it won't sound right because I am not using traditional materials. All I told them was you're right it won't sound like every other violin, if it did it would defeat the purpose of making a unique instrument. I don't think I will ever understand the violin world. Deviate from tradition on a violin and some (a lot of) people lose their minds, make a guitar out of anything you want and no one cares. And thank you very much for the compliment!
I did my training as a guitar maker - as you say, anything from a Flying V to a parlour acoustic and people are happy! I like to think our little group is helping foster a more nurturing environment for the violin outcasts!!
@@grahamvincentviolinsgreat! I’m friends with the daughter of Augustino Loprinzi. She made a ukulele for me that is damn near perfect, out of maple and spruce like a violin. 🎻
Yes, I did get that far and no I don't play violin, but very much enjoyed what you had to say. Thank you.
You know, its not the same thing as an online comment, but in face to face situations i have noticed some old trick in some people, it consists on frowning upon the instrument in order to get it cheaper 😂 I handled this viola to a local teacher and she made absolutely random and contradictory statements about it. Moments Later she asked me three times how much it was😂 and she wouldn't stop playing it... I got that as a hint, if it was that bad why you insist so much on its pricing 😂 I didnt want to sell it yet because its my first one, i truly love how it came out and want to see how it evolves with months....Some days later i played on an orchestral master class and handled it to my classmates, everyone loved it! This made me realise sometimes people use some kind of negotiation tricks without the ettiquete or conversational abilities to pull these off convincely 😅 In my years making instruments (mostly guitars) i have sold 100% of my work and i see people raising its prices a lot if they decide to resell these so, reality is confusing sometimes😅
Glad you outsmarted that nasty person
@@M_SCin this case, luckily she is not exactly nasty, she's just too naive to use that kind of negotiation tricks, so you see her coming 😂
I've quit all the luthiers groups on facebook, too many close minded people and too many arguments about tonewood. I appreciate your views and I like your approach, I build bass guitars and am making some forays into electric uprights, hoping one day to build a few double basses but I might need a bigger workshop. Subscribed😊
I hear what you're saying. Welcome!
I really dont pay much notice to the blinkered view of some people, they must be infuriated most of the time because most things wont live up to their high expectations. I posted a pic of my first violin build on a beginners fiddle player group, made from cherry i thought it looked really nice, and within ten minutes i had an offer from someone in the states that wanted to buy it! I was shocked to say the least but I'd never sell my first, also im learning to play on it so I'd have nothing to play 😂.
I am a guitar player and maker, and it is no different in this world. Fanatical, tradition cultists. What comes to mind is something I’ve heard about cameras, and that’s true about many things: the best camera is the one you have.
What a great attitude- nice to hear - and I’m from a lute making background!
Thanks James!
I definitely agree. Particularly outside the classical orchestra (where conformity is expected) there should be different interpretations, approaches and design elements. Different woods and design elements can give different sounding violins, which might give a violin that suits a particular style or player more. Corner less violins or alternative (more contemporary) shaped pegbox and scroll or non-traditional woods get slammed by some people for being different and therefore not acceptable but they may be far more appropriate for a purpose. Should a fiddle for swamp blues or contemporary acoustic folk or whatever look and sound the same as a classical standard modelled after rebuilds of baroque violins in the 18th and 19th centuries?
This is a valuable, important, discussion. Thank you. On the flip side, my first instrument, not a violin, was praised to the hilt by several very professional player/ performers. This made it very difficult to enter the market as I started with a distorted idea of the value of my instruments. Also, artists and artisans tend to have poor business skills. Though your video waffles a bit the essence is invaluable info for those starting out as luthiers. If ? You are seeking a career, Its all about the market.
Ask themvl why stradivari did not just copy Amatis design?
I've made a few violins on my own, and once thought about going to violin making school and doing it professionally. Then I realized I didn't want to spend every day of my life making Strad and Del Gesu copies because anything else is "wrong", and chose a different career path. This was long before social media was a thing. There's just something about violins that seems to breed that kind of thinking.
I think it’s snobbery. I also play a ukulele, and there is no snobbery there. Uke players respect each other’s instruments.
@@nickiemcnichols5397 Not at all. I'm absolutely in the "Strad and Guarneri " camp.
That's because I make instruments intended to be used in professional, classical orchestras. I happen to play at a professional standard, and when I can I join the local symphony. But I also play folk music, much more nowadays.
I have never been snubbed as much as I have going into Irish sessions as a classical player. Irish session players are the worst.
There's a wide range of styles of instrument that could be suitable for folk music. Strads work really well, but one of the best folk instruments I've ever done is actually a cut down viola that was originally 17thC. The guy plays it with something similar to a Tubbs bow.😂 I didn't cut it down, I just did the repairs to make it solid enough to play on.
At the end of the day I could pull my drawers apart, make a fiddle out of that and it would be fine for folk music. Same can't be said for classical. Cremonese is really the way to go, and some models are specific in what they should be used for.
I wouldn't make a Betts model Strad for someone who wants to have a solo career, nor would I use most Amati patterns.
And frankly, I refuse to use original Guarneri patterns. Guarneri models are amazing modified, frankly ordinary unaltered.
If you get really technical, later cremonese makers like Guadagnini an Pietro Guarneri have better all-round models than Strads or Guarneris, and the best makers today will have at least one or two models in their line-up. I know a viola maker who pretty well exclusively makes on a Pietro Guarneri pattern.
But most people don't even know what a Brescian model violin is. They're brilliant for show pieces and ensemble work, but it would be a stretch using the brescian model violins in a professional orchestra, much less as a solo violin in front of an orchestra (unless you're playing very specific pieces, like Hungarian dances).
I hope some of that dispells the snobbery. I know I'm not the only fine instrument maker who likes a good folk session.😂
@@adifferentangle7064I have similar experience, in orchestra and folk, i have seen in general that the best sounding and professional musicians are good adapting to the situation and the instrument they have at hand, don't seem to bother too much, and give great advice. I only found snobbery in people who depends a lot in its particular context, and are somewhat rigid. Also, i have found that folk musicians tend to prefer metal strings, which i dont like so much on violin/viola (but i like these on double basses). There's a lot of variables to try in order to develop a personal style. Would you recommend me some Pietro Guarnieri and Guadagnini violin and viola examples to look for? By now i'm working on a Strad il cremonese violin and recently finished a Ornati viola model, it turned out pretty well.
This is the first time I’ve heard someone address this attitude in the industry. Been a violinist my whole life and I have avoided many luthiers.
I finished a stew mac kit, I swapped out the fingerboard for rosewood, and did a light blonde French polished shellac. The number of violinist who had no idea rosewood, or non traditional colors were an option was astounding. Of course I did get a lot of hate for it as well. According to my teacher, who was also a performing violinist at the time, it was well within the intermediate level of violins (I lucked out on getting a good body I guess). I would also like to make a Dutch violin at some point, they are actually doing experimentation, and release their design files
In my own, humble, jaundiced opinion...you are quite correct. I can understand that we all can see something which looks odd and we cannot see its purpose, but that does not make it wrong. We learn by asking 'why it is done that way?'
I know precious little about violins but enough to be dangerous of guitars and mandolins. Some luthiers seem wedded to their idea of the perfect bracing system while others adjust to suit the needs of the player. (I am impressed by Turnstone Guitars) but both viewpoints are correct. The first guy is making the guitar that you went to him/her for and the second is using their experience to give you your ideal instrument, as far as they can.
Pricing: I paint oil paintings, old fashioned ones. I do well to get £100 for a portrait. Then I hear that artists are selling plain (not blank...) canvases for thousands. If I did that they will sat it's a fake ! The signature sells, like having 'Gibson' on your headstock. Marketing and human nature combine. We just have to be content with what we get.
Fabulous100% with you there. For me violin making is art. But you already know my views :-)
agreed with you 100%
Thank you Graham, a great video...imho!
The big problem is that you really don't know the result untill the very end of work. Although cheap fabric made violins made 100-120 years ago, will sometimes have the right material, a lot of work thinning out front etc reconfigure with full bass clef etc.
Bravo, so many violin makers and much worse the academic types get so hung up and bent out of shape about anything they don't understand. It's almost as if NOTHING new can be done with the violin. Then I think about Kyle Dillingham making an amazing album using broken violins and doing so much more music with much more expression than many of the gatekeepers will ever do in their lifetime of I guess... What? Holding down the fort? Clutching their pearls? Egad! They act as if Stadivari wouldn't have been all over a CNC and Titebond glue if those had been around.
As a lefty with a lefty fiddle, coming from 50yrs of guitar (lefty) before discovering fiddle and falling in love with it, the discrimination and damnation I have had from the ‘classic’ community is heartbreaking. Some examples… I have been openly laughed at, told there is no such thing as a lefty violin, told I would never be able to play anything, barred from orchestra/ensemble, told to grow up and play properly, etc ad infinitum. I can’t even discuss it rationally, I am dismissed wholesale.
To say I have been disheartened from the classic/purist violin community is an understatement. Having said that, from the folk/indie community it barely gets a mention or just a shrug. So I must agree that the folk community are indeed more open. As an aside, lefty violins are around in minute numbers, but shoulder and chin rests are almost non existent. ;))
Really sad to hear that, but delighted that it didn't put you off! This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Glad you didn't let the snobs slow you down, check out Ashley MacIsaac for a left handed fiddle player
@@daverimar1237 I will, thank you! ;))
I got away from bowed string instruments for much the same reason -- playing left-handed is practically being in league with the devil, even though if you have a mirror instrument, it makes zero difference. When you listen to them talk about bowing v fingering to each other, they will all say that the bow hand is more important, more expressive, "the bow hand is master and the fingers of the left hand but its servants," etc. But when you are left-handed, suddenly they change their tune and talk about how much "better" it is to use your dominant hand on the fingerboard. It's like they don't even hear themselves.
I've always felt that if we took a real look inside of all of those Amatis, Strads, and Guarneris, we'd find definite signs of some of them having had their bass bars glued on the other side.
@@jcortese3300I teach kids to play ukulele, because it’s a gateway instrument. I teach the lefties to play right handed, explaining that they have an advantage this way. It seems to work.
I wonder if I should have a left handed ukulele to loan to them for the workshops.???
I agree with the idea of details not being cast in stone. However, the problem pointed out with respect to the round saddle seems like legitimate functional concern. The rebuttal is "that wasn't expressed very nicely". A lot of times, useful advice comes from social jerks and doesn't come sugar coated, it is what it is. Now, about the round saddle, does it get in the way of proper tensioning?
Totally get what you're saying. I don't disagree. Time will tell as to the functioanlity of that saddle, I think it's going to be just fine. I hope so, because it's so very much more elegant than most!
we humans are funny creatures, and we can certainty excel at being annoying! 😅
TBH I'm quite good at that - I know!
gatekeepers and the group that pulls the ladder up behind them are a sad brake on the human race.
great to see ya Graham buddy . been awhile . my fault im sure . you know i am not the guy that thinks violins should be all the same im sure you know that . i am a artist and i think there is no right or wrong . in fact i have been trying real hard to get one of you violin masters to step up and out of the box . i find it really tough in fact have not found one yet . you have been the closest one i have found that even have considered it . the problem with rules is that they stop growth . they stop imagination . and they stop the love for trying new things . im still waiting to see you get to a point that you are ready to step over the line and create a true Graham one of a kind master piece . i wish i was a rich man i would put you to work so hard . the old masters would cry from there graves . first thing i would have you do is throw out the rule book . because until you do your just making someone else's work . well hey man lots of love and good wishes and god bless ya buddy . dont worry about what others think there opinions like my own dont matter . the only thing that matters is your love for the art and creation .
Good to hear from you too buddy! I think you'll like the one I'm just finishing!
To be fair I'd be a little concerned about a saddle with that particular shape because I would wonder how the tailpiece could remain completely stable over it. Having said that I am not sure how anyone can say that the saddle is even original which completely negates any argument about the worth of the instrument. When I saw it the first thought I had was Scottish or English though I am not sure it is of Hardie calibre.
Hi, Hardie seems to have made violins over a range of qualities. I don't think this is one of his top flight violins, but it's way better than the average factory fiddle whoever made it. Saddle looks to fit nicely with the age and feel of the instrument, but as you say, hard to tell. I don't think I discussed "worth" of the instrument, I'm more concerned by and was talking about its potential as a violin, as a tool for music and its quality as a piece of work. With regard to the saddle and how it works, time will tell. I'm expecting it to have a negligible effect.
@@grahamvincentviolinsthere’s nothing wrong with a luthier having his/her own trademark that is unique!
- somebody played it.. loved it and valued it so much to have multiple repairs, it’s gotta be a good un . (But that’s only, my opinion )🤪- but what do I know.. I’m a trombone player 😂
I think you're right, but time will tell!!
If you gatekeep and take a prescriptivist approach to a community then the creativity within that community dies out. Violins have been around for literally centuries and we SHOULD have extant examples made in hundreds or thousands of different styles and wood combinations, but because of the gatekeeping of the community, it's relatively rare to find these novel violins because the luthiers all followed the tradition to a T without experimenting to see if they could make something special for themselves. I like your content because you go out on a limb and try new things. Even if the overall form is maintained to make it easier to tune, the fact that you try different wood combinations is already something that sets you apart from others in what I consider a very good way.
On a side note, I'd love to see a violin with an olivewood back. I doubt it's resonant enough to make for a very good top material, but for the back and sides, it should be hard enough and the color and figure of the wood is quite lovely.
I knew a luthier who made a ukulele from oak wood. I called it an “oakulele”. It looked and sounded great. I almost bought it. He had another he made from pecan wood.🪵
I used to have a ukulele made from spruce and maple like a 🎻 violin.
I think violin makers could learn a thing or two from ukulele makers. The first one is respect.
Koa wood from Hawaii has been the holy grail for decades, however, the best sounding instrument in our house is a ukulele built of mahogany wood.
@@nickiemcnichols5397 It doesn't change the tuning, but it does change the timbre, so the sound is quite different and lovely. Dude's applewood violins sounded really cool.
The problem is some Luthiers think their violins are worth $30,000 even when they are less then average😮
All I know is that if a violin works for me, I don't care what other people make of it. One of the attractions of the violin is how differently similar-looking instruments can sound to each other, and how differently the same instrument can sound when played by different players. There is no more individual an instrument than a violin. Even the dirt-cheap Chinese mass-manufactured ones play differently. And one of the reasons is that however similar they seem, violins all differ from each other in some detail; either variations on a basic pattern produced accidentally or deliberately by a single maker; or the differences in style between one maker and another. Which means it is silly, for example, to reject a Stainer because it is not a Strad, or a tin fiddle because it is not made of wood. The joy of violins is that there is no fixed criteria for quality or craftsmanship. These righteous folk need to learn that violins, like people, have characters, personalities, and looks, of their own.
Think you've pretty much nailed it there.
I 100% agree with you haha
I think that the word you couldn't quite remember was *exacerbate.* I think if I were making instruments, I'd be inclined to make three grades: student, professional musician, and heirloom. The craftsmanship would be the same in all grades, just the materials would vary according to grade.
Exacerbate! Yes, thanks!!
well stated. stick to your guns graham
It’s money!! Reproduce what has made the big bucks. A bit sad. You are right, a lack of acceptance of others different options is rampant.
Modified versions of violins that don’t work are as important for the development of a violin maker as accuracy of reproduction of successful instruments. I’m a very big bloke and play violin (and viola). The variation in violas is much more accepted.
Are you as large as Byron Berline?
@@nickiemcnichols5397 6’3 and still at my full rugby weight.
Well said. Legalistic rant again 🙄😵💫 we should never think we’re right at the cost of other peoples feelings and viewpoints without valid tested exposition and argument. Even then, we should be open to b wrong. Of course, I hope the contributor is not to put out by this and that they can understand the issue amicably
i agree with all of that. TBH I'd be surprised if the contributor in question watches my videos!
I totally agree with you. Most things can be done in different ways, and no way is wrong if it works for you. I'm not a violin maker, I'm just a curous person who try many things. I have buit one violin, just as an experiment to see if I was able to do it. My grandfather vas a violinmaker, he died when I was tree years old, but I can remember tha he worked on violins, so I thought I would se if I also could manage to build a violin. I watched many youtube videoes about it an found a guy that I liked very much, he explained the prosess in a way that everyone can understand, and he has found his metodes to do things in hs own way. That is very good I think.
So take a look here, I think you'll find it very interesting. th-cam.com/video/AQrUlW5HZkw/w-d-xo.html
you are now the 2nd generation! that's something to be proud, my grandfather was an artisan (outstanding leather work and kitchenware) i wasn't able to meet him but since i started, the craft felt warmly familiar to me, like if i knew what to do next and even how (in some cases) if i cleared my mind. I'm the casual succesor of an old italian violinmaker across my street, a totally casual thing but very meaningful if i think about it. I got to talk to him sometimes, and now i feel like he aproves what i do from the other side. Same with you and i would dare to say, with every modern artisan too. Congratulations on your instrument!👏👏👏