Are Lesbian Bars Shutting Down Because of Trans Women? | Kat Blaque
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ม.ค. 2022
- Lesbian Bars across the country are closing down and some people blame that on the inclusion of transgender women within these spaces. So I asked my Lesbian audience what they thought and I got some... very interesting...varied answers.
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I’m a 72 tease old lesbian that lived in SF for 30 years. The women/lesbian spaces started closing years ago. Economics are the main reasons for these closures. As well as the lesbian community’s quest towards a more healthy lifestyle that did not drink as much!
thank you, it's great to hear from people who've been active in the community for a long time. i hope you will keep commenting and even call in :)
@@Liloldliz I enjoy your channel!
@@jacquilewis3323 i didn't make the channel we're commenting on but thank you haha
@@Liloldliz omg such a cute interaction 🥰
this rings true for what i have seen in Austin too.. for better or worse, gay men tend to make more money and drink more.. so those spaces proliferate..
See, I'm a gay man who goes to gay bars occasionally, and nearly every gay bar in the country allows women in the bar in general, so I'd be quite concerned indeed if my local gay bar banned transgender men
The dynamic isn't the same though is it? Like, transphobes aren't saying that gay trans men are a danger to cis men. They're mostly saying that trans men are lost lesbians. I don't think transphobes even concieve of gay trans men. Maybe they just think they're tomboys...
@@robertofontiglia4148 Transphobes absolutely call gay trans men predatory. It's unfortunately not a super uncommon narrative. Yes, they see straight trans men as 'lost butches' but I'm pretty sure the majority of trans men (especially younger trans men) aren't straight, and transphobes know this.
A lot of the transphobia I hear directed towards gay trans men is stuff like we're 'destroying homosexuality by pressuring/forcing gay men to have sex with vaginas' or we are 'confused girls who read too much fanfiction/yaoi manga/whatever and became obsessed with gay men and tried to become them'. It's definitely not the same as how they attack transfems, but it is common for gay trans guys to hear these kinds of attacks, especially from TERF-type transphobes.
@@robertofontiglia4148 it's a public space tho you can't just ban people baised on sex. That's against the law.
I have never heard of any bar for gay men explicitly banning trans men. In fact we tend to be completly ignored in most discourse in the gay male community. With that said, this is by no means an indication that gay bars, or the gay community in general is accepting of trans men. I think I have faced more transphobia in gay male spaces than I have anywhere else. Sadly this is an issue that tends to be ignored entirely.
The gay bar I used to go to back when I was a young person who loved going out was VERY inclusive. EVERYBODY would come out. Surprisingly, Drag Night was quite popular with the straight boys. These little stag parties would get all dressed up for the show. I could never figure it out, but it was nice to see straight men secure in themselves to openly participate in entertainment they might otherwise get mocked for. And they always behaved themselves and you could tell they weren't creeping around looking for trouble or hoping to get freaky on the DL. If, back then, I learned they started turning people away I'd just stop going. I always liked being in a place where I could be my gay self without self censoring but seeing everyone hanging out being themselves too.
I always laugh at the "I don't date bi women bc they have been with men" thing cause out of the two of us, I, the lesbian, has slept with multiple men and my fiancée, who is bi, has slept with none. Orientation =/= sexual history or behavior. (and obviously it's biphobic even if she had slept with men)
yeah, it's ridiculous, it ignores that societal pressure can be really tough to deal with, and it's super cruel towards rape victims. And the idea that having sexual contact with a penis (i know that not all men have penises and not all people with penises are men, but people who say that pretty much always equate men with penises) kinda changes a woman forever is really gross, it's the same idea behind considering virginity pure and seeing women who've had sex as dirty sluts. Plus, thinking that, by touching a woman, a man just gets to change her essence or whatever is also just super misogynistic, women exist and our lives are important regardless of men and what they may have done to women. I'm a lesbian, I'm glad I've never been with a man, but that's because I know that that'd have been harmful to me personally, not because women who've had sex with men are dirty. Believing that men are able to "taint" women is super gross and misogynistic, and it's terrible to see women who claim to be feminists say some bullshit that relies on that exact logic that feminism has been trying to fight for ages.
I'm gay and I grew up in and extremely religious conservative family, than I joined the military during Don't ask don't tell (it ended 4 years after I joined). Because I was forced to be so closeted, and wanted to fit in, I dated women and had sexual relations because it was expected. I hated it. To this day, I still have regrets for that. Never really been judged by it. Mainly because I date only other men the same age as me (30's) so quite a few people have the same experience.
I wonder if this is more cultural. I grew up in the country and now as an adult live in Charleston, the biggest city I have ever lived in. Just wondering if larger cities is where your going to see this kind of ignorance occur more? Which is an odd thing to say, but really in the country, its really only the straights that are ignorant. Not enough LGBT members to have so much in group hate.
When has then ever happened? I mean really. That isn't even an argument with lesbians. What, you had 1 or 2 women say that as if it's paramount?
@@tungstenanderson5991 "orientation is indicative of sexual history" is a commonly held belief that manifests in a lot of spaces in a lot of different ways. I don't doubt that this person has likely heard this in a lot of different ways lol
Lesbians don't date bi women bc they are 90 percent straight. And it's proven they all end up with a man, Google it. And they can't see themselves live with a women for the rest of their lives.
Hey guys! I see that there's some confusion about the phrase Kevin with a fish. Throughout the call in show, we had a lot of conversations about heterosexual men who list themselves on dating sites in a way where they are visible to lesbian women, and a common thing that came up. Is that a lot of straight men will have the same photo on their profile, which is quite frequently a photo of them holding a fish. This is not really a phrase that comes from anywhere or existed in a lexicon before this conversation, to my understanding, but the ultimate communication is that there are a subset of heterosexual men who fetishize lesbian relationships and attempt to connect with lesbian women through dating apps.
I needed this explanation. No sarcasm.
I was googling "Kevin with a fish" with question marks around my head (no results) and came here seeking this exact context.
Seems prejudiced.
@@Ray-mj5mj they do hold fish lol
Lesbians are afraid that Kevin will show up IRL and they won't be able to block him. All the fears with het dating horror stories come to mind.
If you're trying to hook up but aren't sure about your preferences, it's not everyone else's job to fix you. Find yourself on your own. And people are allowed to ditch for whatever reason, including you not being certain.
As a woman, if you're rude or unwelcoming, you're overreacting. If you're nice but uninterested, you led them on. (Stereotypes)
If you're scared of men and/or get anxiety attacks around trans women who don't pass, that's not everyone else's problem. It's yours. Find a different place for yourself.
Mandatory: Not a lesbian.
i wish we measured whether people can be in a space by their behavior over their presentation. it seems like people are mostly worried about predatory people so wouldn't it make more sense to just be aware of predatory behavior and have like a zero tolerance policy?
Yeah like these people think trans women or cis men are the only people that can be predatory. Very wrong. I've had several cis women act preditory twords me to the point it's made my PTSD even worse when it comes to daiting. Like as soon as anyone gets sexual or promises something I just panic.
I'm that note as a teen when changing I'm s woman's locker room I had some adult women check me out and told me I was hot. Behavior is more important then aperence.
The FACTS say that lesbians are the most common victims of intimate partner violence per capita and the overwhelming perpetrators of that violence is cis women and the FACTS say that trans women are the most common victims of murder per capita. Statistically a trans lesbian is far more likely to be harmed by her cis partner than a cis woman is to be harmed by a trans stranger. This is all based on fear of what "could" happen, not what ever actually happens.
Definitely need to break down to flags and green flags. Communication style etc
One would think, yeah.
Yes!
Agreed, it's not like everyone in a bar is potential for you to have sex with. Like a lesbian bar may be for finding someone (hook-up or dating) but lesbian & LGBT spaces in general are largely about simply connecting with your community.
Also it's literal classic misogyny to tell a woman "hey, I personally would not have sex with you, and therefor you do not belong in this space or in my presence." Like let women exist. I thought MEN were the ones who don't respect women they don't find attractive. I acrually saw a post once discussing how many cis women treat trans women the way cis men have treated them, similar to a parent bullying a child and then the child bullying peers. Only difference being these are whole-ass adults. But this weird urge to feel power through finding a group to harass, I guess?
No matter what community or gender there are people who are disrespectful, whether that be to their own or the opposite. No community or gender is better or perfect compared to the next.
THIS THIS THISSSS
it’s also like, why does our community have to be so fixated on sex? that’s just another heteronormative idea that our community shouldn’t keep alive. it also really leaves out minors that want to hangout in lgbt spaces
I know it's not the same, but I'm a cis ace lesbian and I have felt very unwelcome and unwanted in a lot of lesbian spaces. We don't get blamed for things a lot, at least not outright when these topics come up. But say "I'm ace" in some of these spaces and there will be an immediate hive of people making sure you know you aren't welcome there. I've had this happen both online and in person, where people who identify as cis lesbians will say things like I can't possibly be a lesbian becuase ace people can't love or have real relationships (cos apparently they can't fathom love beyond sex for some reason). There are good spaces though, but the bad ones really make me afraid to even try because it's so damn exhausting.
Well, part of identifying yourself with a sexual orientation also extends to whom you may want a romantic relationship with. If a lesbian is also interested in dating women and loving women, and they use lesbian to say they would also like a girlfriend/partner, that means that identifying with a label can extend to your romantic side. We don’t say that straight people are only focused on sex and that they can have romantic interest as well, but the queer community is over sexualized and people ignore that we might want relationships as well. It’s not just about sex.
I’ll add these two points as to lesbian bars closing, even though this isn’t about trans. 1. Women don’t tend to drink/spend as much $ as men do in the gay bars. I dated a women who owned a bar and had women nights. They couldn’t make a go of it because some women order one drink and milk it all night, or even just ask for a water without ordering anything! A business can’t survive that way. 2. As a bi women I’ve been afraid to go to lesbian bars because there can be a lot of hatred from lesbians toward bi women. Unfortunate but just saying it’s there.
it is not hatred it is hurt for being dumped for men by bisexual women. it is a different sexual orientation than lesbian
@@ninatrygg1592 Well there’s a lot of hurt for bisexual women who are dismissed out of hand by lesbians. It’s outright discrimination. Plenty of bisexual women want a monogamous relationship with a women but are told “no bisexuals” from lesbians on dating sites. It cuts both ways.
@@ninatrygg1592 If you are dismissing a woman as a potential partner only on the basis that she is bisexual then that is discrimination. It’s the same as saying you won’t date women of color.
That is true they bring in drag queens especially ones that have been on drag race to get more ppl to come in Atlanta there’s this bar & it had 2 sections the actual club then the stage where the queens/kings perform the drag section was packed but the section where they just dancing together barley had ppl in there
@@ninatrygg1592 thats not an excuse. im a lesbian who has crushed on numerous lesbians & bi women. the lesbians get with someone who isnt me more often than the bi women get with men. why would you decrease your dating pool because of one experience where your infatuation/crush didnt like you back? thats illogical. there are more bi women in the world than lesbians. i suggest you get over your biphobia if you ever want to get into a relationship with a mindset like that.
If I hold Blåhaj in my profile picture, does that make me "Kevin with a fish?"
That subverts the red-flag fish-man trope in every possible way - posing with blahaj is adorable (and a green flag), knowing that sharks are fish is hot (and maybe an even bigger green flag), and the joke is top tier. My cis lesbian ass would be in your DMs so fast! :)
best comment
As a cis bi woman, I would date anyone who holds Blåhaj in their pfp.
As a rural bisexual woman, I’m just jealous of any place that has spaces for sapphic women at all… My options are mostly just hanging around Lowes or the farmer’s market and hoping.
Right
I’m cackling
Sorry I’m laughing at the Lowe’s bit
lmao mood
Facts🤦🏼♀️ even went to a pride parade hoping to get lucky because I'm too afraid to approach a woman at the risk of her being straight and me sounding creepy. No luck at the parade. Every hot lesbian there was already taken😒
Interesting that the first caller wasn't getting how policing isn't about what the trans woman is "giving" but about what the police are perceiving. I've fully socially transitioned, been on HRT since 2015, had multiple rounds of FFS, bottom surgery, etc., and I still don't generally pass. So I've done a *lot* in terms of making an effort (and will continue to do so), but I'm still not convinced that your caller would consider that enough. Because it's not about my effort--it's about her perception, and beyond a certain point, I can't control that.
I guess I've never been fishing, though, if that's the deciding factor.
Yeah I definitely think the disconnect for people who've never transitioned in this direction is that someone can indeed put in a "lot of effort" and still not pass/look overtly feminine/be read as a cis man. We should have a longer conversation about that because there's a lot there to unpack. These notions frequently mean that sometimes what you desire from your transition and what cis people require of you for your transition are completely disconnected.
I wonder how many cis women would pass according to her standards. A lot of cis butch women get misgendered 100% of the time.
@@JasonBakerEngineer yeah, I often don't look enough like either, women have shouted and glared at me for using the women's restroom (when I'm an AFAB enby) and I've never used a multi stalled men's room in my life even though a lot of people seem to think I'm a teenage boy (I'm 22) because that's just not comfy, so if I end up going into a place without a family bathroom, I have to deal with an awkward encounter of speaking to strangers and being like, "no, this is the bathroom on my driver's license, I can use it"
@@KatBlaque exactly or for example before I even figured out I was a man and started transitioning people would just assume I was a dude. Now let's say I didn't transition and identified as woman but still presented the way I do. People would still prosseve me as male and it did happen often. I I was told so often and women's restrooms that I was in the wrong restroom that I just started using the men's instead.
@@JasonBakerEngineer not very many. Expexaly alot of butch lesbians.
I’m a cisgender lesbian. Similar to what other commenters have said, the only call to action for our spaces in order to keep them safe that I’m backing is an *unbiased* “no predators” policy. Anyone breaking that code in any capacity is swiftly ejected from the space, or if caught early enough, before even entering.
Couldn't agree more. I remember (many years ago) being at a lesbian bar that had 'evolved' to allow 'friends of lesbians' (including cis men) to attend. One of my friends had to approach the bouncer (security) to have a man thrown out for peeing in the sink in the women's bathroom.
Respect the space, or get out (or be thrown out). Same goes for when your hitting on a lesbian in a bar is rejected, for whatever reason.
Str8 but not narrow minded here; I’ve never been in the lesbian spaces because I don’t think it’s appropriate. I’m not interested to hook up with someone there or wreck their vibe with my own sexuality. So I agree that people should Respect specific spaces that have been fought over 😊
I mean, idk if this is just *my* experience, but I can't go on a dating app without it showing me men who *aren't even* pretending to be women, trans or otherwise. Most dating apps occasionally just show you men regardless of your settings, because men are the primary money-maker for dating apps.
LITERALLY LIKE??
I know it’s like 2 yrs late but FOR REAL. I used taimi cause I say the tiktok ads and omg the amount of straight men I’d get liking my page or even put on my recs was insane 😩 like I’m bi but where the girlies at. And same with Turn up even though it’s a dating app connecting you through you music taste I put my settings to show both men and women but majority of the times it’s just straight guys 😭
My perspective as a cis lesbian: Cis men praying on and fetishizing lesbians being constantly pulled into discussions surrounding trans women who identify as lesbian, bi or pan leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I've been harassed and unicorn hunted by many a creepy straight dude, as many queer women have, but never has the thought come into my mind to relate that to trans women whatsoever.
In terms of lesbian bars and club events, I don't want them to be gate kept from anyone based on their gender expression as long as you're not being predatory or voyaristic. Also in my experience these events haven't really been? Like I've brought my cis gay male friend to a lesbian bar because we were travelling together and I didn't want to go alone.
If you're being a creep and/or not respecting boundaries, then yeah I don't want you there, but again that rule applies to all genders, including other cis lesbians. So again, I don't like trans women being explicity singled out in this discussion.
Also great video as always!!
So how do you tell the difference between a straight dude unicorn hunting and a trans woman at a bar?
@@truzle6133 you can't tell a person's gender or sexuality based on their appearance. if someone's being an asshole, you kick them out for being an asshole.
@@cabbage-soup and what constitutes "being an asshole"? Which behavior do the bar owners and/or security guards decide is worthy of being kicked out?
@@truzle6133 predatory behaviour would include harassment, stalking, touching without consent.. that would be an asshole in a club. And any gender can do these things. The culture of the event should be one of encouraging safety and respect
@@pearls1404 so men are allowed to be at lesbian bars? Lesbians have no right to create a space that's only for them? Every other sexuality, race or ethnicity is allowed to create a private space but lesbians. Ok 👌
You're doing a couple of incredibly important things here, Kat and nobody in this space better than you:
1) You're listening to and hearing people's experiences. You don't talk over or correct people's lived experiences and it's imperative that we hear people out even if their experiences contradict our own and serve a stereotype we disagree with.
2) You're amplifying reality and getting real people's lives on the record. Importantly, they're the people who will be affected by the policies we advocate for.
Thank you! Love you!
love her sm :)
I know, right? I love Kat Blaque.
Kat is the best.
100%
Wow I’m actually saving this as a communication guideline, thank you 😊
I ran into this one lesbian at an lgbt+ walkabout once.
I am not exaggerating here, straight after she found out I was bi, in one breath said that she wouldn't date a bi woman, and then in the very next breath, said she was once in a 5 year sexual relationship with a man. I was like, um, thankyou for telling on both counts: I don't care. I'd never even been with a man, and the topic previously had been nowhere near sex or dating, so I found it pretty bewildering.
There had been no flirting on my part - she really wasn't my type, I didn't really like her personality which was coming over as pretty neurotic, and she was about 20 years older than me. It explicitly wasn't an exclusively Lesbian hangout, and we weren't even in a dedicated area for lesbians. We were literally walking around some medieval ruins outside, not in a city bar. And all of a sudden her neurons fire off and that's what randomly falls outta her.
With retrospect, I think she may have been jealous about how well I was vibing with another lesbian. Either she was jealous of the other lesbian, or was jealous of me. Either way, that woman had issues.
ok but what is it with biphobic people always blurting that shit out loud out of no where LOL ive never encountered biphobia in a conversation about queer stuff, it's always like 2pm in the perishable goods aisle
@@alwaystired1 I was wearing a bi pride shirt and looking for where they rearranged the jell-o or something, had some woman tap my on the shoulder and say "I don't dates bis".
I wish had had a comeback other than, "Okay...Do you know where the jell-o is?"
Are the gold star lesbians okay???
@@kiwisockswhat does being a golf star have to do w biphobia
@@henazz2561AHAHA i'm not sure if you're joking or not but it says gold star, not golf star
I had a MTF friend that adamantly tried to step over the friend boundary with me, even when I told her no. She was pretty early in her transition and those experiences really felt, to me, that she was exhibiting straight male “ever pursuing, no friendzone” toxic behavior. You know the kind. She would do creepy things to me and other people and thought she got a pass because she was a woman now (she was actually on hormones and presenting as female, so she wasn’t a “Kevin with a Fish”). After enough badgering and bullshit I stopped being her friend. Now is this the norm with trans women? No, but I think the first caller is afraid of something similar happening in a lesbian space. Which to be fair, if this individual was at our LGBT+ hangout, I probably would stop going there… Now, does this experience have anything to do with trans people as a whole, especially MTF folx? Absolutely NOT. It’s that PERSON’S responsibility to stop being an asshole. The community they belong to shouldn’t have to apologize or be policed for this one individual’s behavior. I would also be extremely uncomfortable if our hangout turned away other trans people just because of one jerk’s reputation.
HE
I’ve heard gay men talk about similar experiences with FTMs
@@Random51960
Rare, but not even close to what lesbians have had to deal with.
@@tungstenanderson5991 there are trans guys everywhere these days.
@@Random51960 Let me know when Stonewall calls out gay men for not having sex with them as they did with lesbians, calling them sexual racists for not fucking men.
I've listened to all of the versions of this conversation through your social medias and I wanted to take a moment to thank you for integrating subtitles. I love it! Thank you for the additional efforts, this video is visually striking!
Aww thank you! Im experimenting with formats
this helped an extreme amount!
@@deprogramme369 Thank you for the feedback. I was actually expecting the opposite response to the burned in captions!
@@KatBlaque I like this format it's easy to listen to when I'm driving
yes thank you, i love it when creators make aesthetically pleasing CC as part of the format :) this is just really nice as someone with autism based hearing issues i noticed and appreciate it
I worked at a lesbian bar this past summer and my boss actually worked with the lesbian bar project that Kat pinned. I remember having a conversation with her where she said what's been hurting the "old-school" lesbian bars that are on the brink of going out of business is that they are too exclusionary. It's literally the opposite of what terfs think; trans women aren't killing lesbian bars, lesbian bars are killing themselves by not letting all queer folk in.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing that
this
Could this be kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy? Say a particular lesbian bar announces that they're trans-exclusionary. This means any transwomen leave, but any cis-lesbians who aren't happy patronizing a trans-exclusionary establishment also leave. The bar ends up without enough patrons and goes out of business.
Thus, exclusionary lesbian bars are closing... by excluding themselves out of business.
Really? I thought the economy, rising cost of living etc, was killing them and the fact their target clientele already make less money than the general population
@@radiationshepherd Both are a factor I think. I mean, in related points, Michfest had to shut down because it was TERFy and people boycotted it because of that.
Regarding "Fish Kevins", two experiences I've had: one, was a woman who actually just seemed kinda cool, I matched with her, turned out she was literally just beginning her journey. We've become friends, she's a gem, and seeing her blossom has been amazing.
The other was just a cis dude who claimed he was a trans lesbian because he was "very attuned with his emotions and liked flowers". He then accused me of being hostile and refusing to accept him and unmatched me on Tinder. I saw him again recently (maybe a couple years since) and he has since removed all information from his profile regarding these things.
Iv also noticed that. I am a trans woman and iv never even gotten someone to question that (except cds/cis men pretending to be trans) but the moment you call out a cis man who's pretending they seem to get more offended than I would if another woman asked me. Because I have and understand the fear of men. It's almost obvious when someone's pretending to be trans because they don't sound, talk, dress (meaning they look like there wearing something you'd see on a porn set), or even act like woman period. Sure there are trans woman who get angry when they are discriminated against and I feel for them completely. But I feel the numbers are swayed because cis men.
to be fair i use to think being a trans woman had to do with the fact your gay like. you like men so much you wanna be a woman so that its the "right way" (obviously i dont think likw that anymore) but i can see why some people would think trans women cant be lesbians based on my old mentality that gender idenitu and oriontation
Theres female lesbians who dress like fish kevins... So being 'real' trans means you wear dresses and wigs? Where does the non-biological border between man and woman exist, and the answer seems to lie in sexist stereotpes. It seems so arbitrary and filled with contradictions.
I have a trans friend who unfortunately doesn't have the privilege for hormonal treatment or to wear feminine clothes without the risk of violence. You can, however, tell that she is honest about her identity through her personality. She's super sweet.
@@wastedweirdo9853"pretending to be trans" But it's ok for you to pretend to be a woman, but you're allowed to have your fear of men, but women aren't.
I'm trans-femme and I can say that even at 24, I don't go to clubs really, period, largely due to the fact that no matter where I go there is going to be a group of people massively uncomfortable. Gay, straight, les, there is always someone who thinks you don't belong there :/ and I can't exactly control the pace nor complications of my transition either. But I mean, it is what it is really, and I'm hoping things will change.
What is trans-femme? You're a trans woman?
@@beefortebrea9386 Obviously, I don’t want to speak for someone else on what their identity is or how they define it, but my understanding of trans-femme is that they were perceived as masculine prior to transitioning to a more feminine presentation. Again, this is only my personal understanding of it, so I apologize if I mischaracterized this identity. To the original commenter and anyone that identifies as trans-femme, please correct me if I did!
@@beefortebrea9386it means transfeminine, basically they transitioned to be more feminine (they may be a woman or a feminine non-binary person)
I'm glad you respect other people's boundaries. Everyone gets comfortable around a trans person. Maybe you should create trans inclusive spaces instead of trying to make already existing spaces trans inclusive
You are a man.
When that first caller was talking about trans women's gender presentation I kept thinking about cis lesbian women who look like cis men. Like... masc cis lesbians are way more common than masc trans women I think. And I know for a fact that they face discrimination for it in women only spaces. So... if the problem is with masculine women *and* men in lesbian spaces. How does that relate to trans women?
yeah uh as a nonbinary lesbian who is basically masc and who happens to be afab (sadly not on hrt yet): I rarely get clocked as not A Dude unless i speak. I'm bulky because I lift, I'm the average male height for my ethnic group, I talk quite masc, have more "masculine interests" and body language etc. I mean like: women cross the road when they see me at night or speedwalk away from me, clockable lesbian couples glare at me when I look over because they think I'm some creepy dude. In many ways i have similar issues that masc trans lesbians face, except people are somehow willing to overlook ME and not them in lesbian spaces purely because of birth assignment.
(IK the discomfort is around the penis but someone else's genitals are not your damn problem unless you plan to be interacting with them)
@@user-on1zq9dv7f but how can you be a lesbian when you are non-binary? Doesn't the word lesbian imply that you are a woman
@@toastbrot9012 Lesbian is inclusive of non-men.
@@user-on1zq9dv7f like I don't want to offend you but I've never heard about this before and have seriously problems with understanding this😭💕
@@toastbrot9012 non-women can use the term lesbian, just like how non-men can use the term gay
As a gay man, when I'm listening, I'm trying to draw parallels to my own experience. In my opinion, I feel like there is a lot of anti-masculine sentiment. I think where the lines cross into transphobia is when there's discussion on what level of transition needs to happen before trans people are allowed into certain spaces. I think it's fascinating that this is something that lesbians go through because the reverse is also true for gay apps and spaces. There is a strong anti-feminine sentiment. And in both scenarios trans people get caught in the middle. I think visibility and time eventually will fix these problems very few people identify as trans yet for some reason they are perceived to be the heart of the problem. I don't believe in segregation and I believe it had disastrous effects on different ethnic groups in America. And I can only see that disaster continuing if we decided to do that based off people's sexualities.
I completely agree. Yes women need a safe space to be themselves. But they can't just gatekeep a litreal public space. If they want a privet group were they can drink and have fun were only cis lesbians are allowed one of them can just as esaly host a weekly get together at their house or something.
And I wonder what are the sentiments towards NB people.
But interestingly, there’s a paradox then with studs/butch lesbians who often present very masculine but are certainly accepted into the space. I’d therefore say it’s not to do with anti masculinity… it’s just plain transphobia. Lesbian TERFs are often fine with cis people having gender spectrum range just nobody else and especially not trans women
@@haeymzmdlcccc booooooo 🍅🍅🍅
Was trying to draw parallels myself as a trans gay man! Though I’m young and inexperienced, I’ve found a lot more acceptance from other men than I thought I would! Straight guy bros, and then other gay and bi men who are just legit and chill. I was worried of being perceived as some creepy fetishist, but that hasn’t been my experience at all and I have cis and trans gay and bi dudes coming to ME in all honesty haha! I think it probably helps being a masculine white twink who’s fully transitioned, as my only form of “otherness” is being trans. I have no doubt there is a lot of bigotry I don’t deal with because of this. (note: I consider myself fully transitioned even though I haven’t had bottom surgery. Just don’t want it!)
One Quick Note: no trans person is being denied a loan based on discrimination. This is 100% false. The underwriter does not know any details about the applicant's sexuality, race, religion, age. They receive credit history and current income info. This is tightly regulated by the feds. The banker has absolutely no approval power, whatsoever. I've heard this said before and it's just not true. This went down with black people in the 70's and 80's, but drastic changes were made as a result of those injustices.
Non-binary bisexual from Dallas here. It can get put into perspective the further south you go. Our local lesbian bar is Sue Ellen’s. It nearly shut down during COVID. But I think everyone part of the Sue Ellen’s family realizes that our threat isn’t each other - IT’S REPUBLICANS!! There have been smaller and smaller crowds because sometimes people are afraid to go out.
YES! Exactly this! I am terrified of the radical conservative movement and how open and threatening/violent it has become. I didn't even feel safe going to PRIDE this year. (Not that I could have, I had surgery at the beginning of this month.) Also, no one has the money to go out and everyone has dating apps so they don't need to go out in order to 'meet' people anymore. Bad combo for any bar/club.
@@EamonWill Oh for effs sakes. I am a lesbian. I have no fear of conservatives. I have a fear of morons, like the the OP and yourself when you call yourselves "non binary" when you're human beings and being human beings we are binary species, which is why I am a lesbian like any women who is same sex attracted. I am an adult human female who is same sex attracted. The vile nature of the trans and non binary so called people have been so violent to lesbians and women, to the point that Stonewall in the UK has deemed lesbians as "sexual racists" for not including men who say they are women in their dating as sex pool. You're homophobic to the core and misogynistic.
Hateful to boot.
Exactly!! This is why i cannot understand the lgb+ people who act like excluding the T will get them brownie points with people who literally hate us all... Being the token gay or token lesbian on the right does nothing for them.
My wife and I try to go to Sue Ellen's for the block party, it's nice to see some other queer people in texas here. I've always felt very welcome in Sue Ellen's.
i'm thinking about the first call, specially the question "what should we do about predatory cis men in lesbian bars and how do we make sure we don't harm trans lesbians in the process". and the thing that's confusing to me is, if the cis straight men in lesbian bars are necessarily predatory, shouldn't they be held accountable for being predatory instead of for looking like cis men? i wouldn't feel safe in a bar where sexual harrassment is not held accountable, and i wouldnt feel safe in a place where only cis men and non-passable trans women were held accountable for it either. so like, is the problem that cishet men misbehave in lesbian bars and get away with it so much that cis lesbians are getting a pavlovian response to AMAB people, or is the problem that some lesbians don't want to risk socialising with trans women without knowing theyre trans right away? or are they just very transphobic and don't want to be around any trans person? either way, it doesn't seem like excluding non-passable/closeted trans women will help anyone
This. It all boils down to this metaphysical skepticism, the Pavlovian effect, and pure disgust.
I feel like its just transphobia. I have met so many trans women pre-transition. I graduated with one in high school that not only was NOT even on hormones, but had to mask as a man bc her mom was a teacher and didn’t respect it. You can still tell the moment they talk they are women. Every single teacher used her correct pronouns too. Like i feel like people who are scared cis men will dress like women and lie… have never attempted to even meet a trans woman before.
both; of course cis men being predatory is the biggest most urgent issue but when we’re talking about creating safe spaces (not only physically safe) for talking about and experiencing queerness... non queer people simply should not be in those spaces
That's what I don't get either. It's the same thing with the bathroom argument. Like why would a person have to crossdress to to enter a space to harass women? There are no bathroom guards just like there are no club guards. There are bouncers but what if a guy is cross dressing and is "unlockable"? Couldn't they sneak in and harass people just as easily?
The thing is unless you ask every single patron to drop trow at the door how do you control whose allowed in? How do you not know the "wrong" people aren't already inside?
Like basically the correct way to handle it is to police the bad behavior not the person. Remove/ban all predators basically.
If those cis lesbians were to hold accountable people for harassment as opposed to holding people accountable for being "men", that would require them to hold accountable other cis lesbians who harass.
It's very prominent in trans-negative lesbian spaces that this is something that is often avoided, because protecting the identity of "woman" is more important than having a community safe from all abusers.
The second caller has really good points about why lesbian bars are closing but I'd like to add to that. I live in a city with a few gay bars and one lesbian bar. All the lesbian/bi/pan women I know go to the lesbian bar _and_ the gay bars. The one lesbian bar that has survived over the years has always been open to all patrons. They even have a guy's night/drag show! The lesbian bars that don't allow men in pop up every once in a while and close almost immediately because no one goes. Not enough women want that.
We aren't the Mattachine Society and the Daughters of Bilitis any more. We're the LGBTQ community, the queer community. Our activism and thus our friendships are no longer segregated.
Lesbians want to be able to invite friends to wingman them and buy them drinks on their birthday and some of those friends might be bi or trans or men. Lesbian bars now have to cater to that diversity of relationships or fail.
exactly!! it feels very out of touch to me to assume that all or most lesbians want to socialize exclusively with other lesbians - the reality of queer friend groups in the 21st century is that they're diverse! i want to go to a queer bar that welcomes all my queer friends, not someplace that will turn 70% of them away at the door for not fitting the mold of a cis lesbian. i don't want to invalidate the fact that there are lesbians who do want that kind of exclusive space, but i don't think a bar is realistically the place to have it.
🗣say it louder for the people in the back 🗣
Is it not illegal to deny someone entry based on their gender?
@@roosterqmoney yeah technically. but bars and clubs can usually get around legal issues by posting that "we refuse the right to serve anybody" sign and then if you got sued the person(s) would have to prove the discrimination. It's probably just more effort than anybody wants to go through. but I worked at a bar that stopped doing ladies nights because there was a complaint from the state or something. so with the increase of anti-discrimination policies you're right that the whole thing might be archaic in a way
Lesbian bars do allow men in
About the question of not being "correct" to date a person of the same gender as you as a trans people, I think it also impacts trans men
I am a young trans man and I've always had people who were surprised that I was gay. I guess they had in mind that I transitioned to please and attract the opposite gender, because I was disappointed of men (and why the hell would I want to be like people I don't like???)
That's actually something I never understood, as I've always been attracted to men and never had real problems with them, and I actually experienced more transphobia with fathers of friends or of my partner than with them
It just feels weird for people to think trans people can't be gay or attracted by the same gender
I don’t understand it either because personal gender identity is and has always been separate from sexual attraction.
I really appreciated how respectful you were in all the conversations. It made listening pleasant and thought provoking
the idea of trans women "taking over" lesbian bars is weird to me because, as a non-binary butch whos friends with many trans women and currently dating one the most common reaction when i take trans women to lesbian bars is very high nervousness. they only go in such spaces because im here with them and known there, even if i only go to explicitly trans-inclusive bars as someone who exists in the grey area between butch woman and trans man, because theyre afraid they dont look enough like women to be allowed in. the idea of trans women not only entering lesbian spaces alone but also aggressively flirting with the people there seems ridiculous if youve ever met a trans woman... maybe it happens, every group of people has assholes and bad people in it, but it's so very obviously not the norm.
Honestly I don't know where people get this from the whole "the trans are taking over"it's like out of 1000 people maybe one or two are trans.. I don't know it sounds like hype paranoia /an excuse to exclude trans people without being called transphobic At least in my opinion.
I can agree on this because most transwoman especially pretransition are super nervous to be out in the open expressing themselves. Imo it seems like if you don't pass we don't want you in our spaces. I met ny girlfriend pretransition so I've never been in those spaces. However even reading gender critical posts on reddit, a lot of lesbians who are opposed are just transphobic and they don't believe in trans lesbians. ( I thought I was lesbian b4 transitioning, I realized I'm bi but lean towards women just because like idk men scare me plus I love my gf so I don't have intentions of dating anyone but her.) Idk though I get it because guys will pretend and I can see how people might be uncomfortable but I definitely see that lesbians are super transphobic when we're in their spaces ( not all of them) I think my voice is really my tip to why I don't pass. Because most people can't tell until I speak. Or if my shoulders are giving man. But for the most part I don't see transwoman being so aggressive when most of them don't do things to draw attention to themselves especially pretransition because getting clocked is the first thing we're thinking about but that's just me.
THANK YOU!
@@Ikki3694 I can't believe there's a bunch of trans women going out and just harassing people, we are hyper aware of our presentation, even trans women who don't medically transition are still hyper aware of their presentation, when cis lesbians talk about "non transition trans women" entering their spaces they're almost certainly talking about trans women they think don't pass, there are trans women who aren't medically transitioning who pass better than me, and can do makeup really well who aren't what these cis lesbians think of when they think of non transition, they're thinking of women that they can clock, and it does put you on edge for being clocked, especially when getting clocked means people can be violent, I'm 6' tall and don't really like makeup so I get clocked a lot but have been transitioning for 3 years, I probably won't ever pass but I'm happy with myself, and these exclusionist lesbians usually have a narrow view of what passes as a woman anyways, there are women that find me attractive as a woman and the exclusionists can die made, I still don't imagine myself entering a sapphic space alone though just cause of how scary getting clocked can be
I know a few older trans women how are not out or are not physically transitioning and I can barely imagine them going into such a space with an invention
"people blamed transwomen, as kind of like this bogeyman" sent me.
She's correct unfortunately, I've heard that from other trans gals
@@ladyredl3210 I think that my response got eaten by auto-blocked terms, and I'm not sure of a good way to explain the joke without them. Umm, "transwomen being referred to as imaginary male monsters that lurk in the enclosed spaces of your sleeping quarters, where clothes are kept."
@@ladyredl3210 they do the same thing to cis bi women too. The rhetoric is IDENTICAL, like their lil brains can't keep up so it just copy-pastes the community in depending on the moment.
@@m.edison9339 I used to be one of those people when I first came out. And then I grew up,and evolved.
I'm confused because I read the article she referenced and it didn't blame trans women at all.
What shocks me the most is that in such a huge city like New York there are only 3 lesbian bars.. As someone in a rural part of the Netherlands I also have only been to a lesbian bar once and that was back when I was 15 in Amsterdam (I just went along with my parent who is a trans woman), nobody was acting like it was weird for my parent to be there but it was for the most part a more butch-oriented bar. In my part of the country there are no lesbian bars at all and as far as I know our options are also very limited in the rest of the country.
15 years ago in Amsterdam nobody made a big deal about a trans woman being in a lesbian bar (my parent was there frequently with friends) but I'm not sure the space would be as welcoming now as it was then.
I was also surprised to hear that there are only 3 lesbian bars in New York.
There is exactly 1 in Houston, Tx (The Houston area has a population of over 7 million) and there are less than 30 total in the entire country, so I'm not surprised.
Edit - and I can't afford the 50 minute Uber ride over to it 😫
@@electronics-girl There were around 200 in the 80s. Lesbian bars have closed at an alarming rate the past couple of decades.
Okay I agree that a transgender person shouldn't be discriminated in a lesbian bar.
But, to take a child...? I'm sorry, like you shouldn't have been there at all, seems weird
@@sussybaka119 Because a lesbian bar is explicitly hypersexual in nature? I mean, I don't get how people get to this conclusion so easily when it would've been very much fine in a regular bar/café with a parent...
Also, lesbian and gay bars have been closing because online dating is way more popular, so bars are less necessary for meeting people.
I’m so annoyed to learn there are literally CIS men on lesbian dating sites or at lesbian bars 😑 That’s so frustrating, and adds an annoying complication to this topic
yeah, it's also funny how everything the first caller mentioned as problems could be solved if cis men just wouldn't lie to prey on lesbians. like, it's not trans women, it's straight cis men they actually have a problem with.
It's been going on for a while but especially since the gender identity has come in , not good hopefully more lesbians will speak up and get their spaces back
No kidding! It goes both ways though; I used to have a female friend that would pretend to be a trans man to take advantage of men at gay bars. She confessed this to me and laughed while doing it. While it might be uncommon, people like her are out there and will take advantage of people if they get the chance.
@@loubailing1999 BS!! I don't believe that for a second. You know it's 99.9% men out here doing this! And this self-id mess has made it so any man can literally call himself a trans woman, and then call women 'bigoted' and transphobic for not sleeping with him. And y'all will support it and call her a terf. Even though lesbians are same-sex attracted women!! This is just homophobia and misogyny, it's always women that lose out.
@@Lilah1848 I honestly look down on men that do that, like they REALLY had to flip the script that hard to get any sort of power back in the dating dynamic. They're like twisted mirror image to the Terf while horribly confirming all the horrible shit they've been saying for years. It feels like it was a way of them willing this to happen.
Wow, this is a conversation we've needed for decades. As an androgynous pansexual perceived as a lesbian in social circles, I have not only come across cis lesbian women who are blind to how they blatantly police gender expression, but I have also met lesbian women who are still battling the trauma they've faced with cis men, whether they pretended to be trans to fulfill their boundary-less desires or not. In both lesbian and gay bars, I've been to in Atlanta, everyone has been so welcoming, no matter anyone's personal preferences surrounding expression. The only time people were sanctioned is if they were nonconsensually groping patrons. Some of my dearest friends are trans with no intention to physically transition, and some of them do indeed face discrimination and sometimes violence from both cis women and men. For lesbians, I am certain a lot of the mistrust they feel is due to projections of past negative experiences with cis men; others likely feel threatened due to the competitive environment society has placed on them. That in no way excuses their behaviour. These people need to address their fears if they wish to grow. And the only way we as a people can grow is by allowing a safe space for conversation where the goal is not to be right, but rather to understand and be understood. ❤
Yes to that last part!! As a victim of Spanish colonaziton, it'd be extremely stupid and frankly bigoted of me to hate on, blame and discriminate Spanish people in general now. Yes, there's a radical minority that's still nationalistic, but majority of Spanish people are just literal human beings wih struggles and happy moments, like the rest of us. So when TERFs do this, it's just transphobia, like I said. Because, first of all trans women are women, not cis men, or men at all, and second of all, trans women are not the cause of their traumas, cis men are.
As a ciswoman who has experienced plenty of abuse from other women, the weird "(cis) women are pure and can't cause serious harm, and men are inherently harmful" attitude from some women (both lesbian and straight) skeeves me the fuck out. It feels like they are fetishizing women at the same time as pretending women are some mythological monolith with only tiny variations. People abused by women may not outnumber the same by men, but not being "the best at being awful" doesn't mean abusers aren't plentiful among women too.
It's as frustrating as when people think parents couldn't possibly be extremely harmful to their children, that the child must have done something to deserve the abuse from the parents _if_ the child actually was abused and wasn't just "lying"/"being dramatic". I really hate how some don't consider men and women humans first with all the asshattery that is inherent in humanity.
I am an autist and failed all the time to perform gender correctly as a kid, which may be why I have grown to see men and women as the same thing in terms of risk of harm - I likely received far more bad treatments from other girls and women growing up for involuntarily failing to act like "one of them" than the women who performed gender well from kindergarten. (Though I am aware that not "passing" well as my gender has given me the privilege to be unlikely to be pursued by the type of men who will kill women for rejecting them.)
finally someone smart in da commentsp
@Yeetus debeetus girl queen you're so bored?
this!!! very much!!
What a gorgeous presentation of a call-in stream! Amazing work on top of a great and very interesting and complex subject.
i really like how these call ins are spaces where people dont have to be afraid to express their takes, because even if they have a bad take or just are unaware of the fuller argument, they can feel heard and then in return they can listen and possibly change their mind. i also really appreciate the subtitles, and the effort youve put into visuals!
From now on i'll call every straight cis-man that is into lesbians a Kevin with a fish.🤣
lol.
That was my first time hearing that phrase lol
Also, having the different colors for different voices was amazing--your artistic flair always shines through and adds extra nuance and clarity
Aw thank you! I'm experimenting with formats and such so that feedback means a lot to me.
It also really helped me, as someone who has auditory processing issues! tysm
ooh I loved that too. As someone who sometimes skips ahead, you can easily see when it's a new person.
I love how you casted biological women to play them all. Nice touch.
This was a nice video format! I don't normally listen to podcasts but I was able to listen to this while cleaning my bathroom.
I still love the evolution of true tea into a 2-way conversation, this was such a great discussion and like a lot of others have said I really appreciated the subtitles and visuals in this vid!
This is an incredibly challenging subject for me. I'm a pansexual trans woman, who just started coming out and haven't started medically transitioning, I'm still "boy mode" more than not. The reason is my wife and I decided we want kids and it would be easier to do that now before HRT. I'm trying to avoid rambling, but I'm PETRIFIED of the idea that I might make any woman uncomfortable by being in a "woman's space". I've accepted, once I've fully initiated my transition, that I just won't use public, non-family bathrooms for years. I understand I just dont get access to locker rooms, spas, etc, probably forever (unless a lot of things change quickly and I wasn't a huge fan of those spaces anyway). I'm scared of even basic interactions I'm going to have raising my daughter, like a PTA meeting or school events, that my transness could ostracize her in anyway. Even my sexual identity, as a pan person, has changed. I have had intimate relationships with men in the past but even if I weren't with my partner, I just dont feel the same feelings anymore. My partner asked if that makes me a lesbian (she identifies as a lesbian) and I fear so much the idea of "invading women's spaces" that I just can't call myself that. I know I have a ton of internalized transphobia that I'm working through and I'm seeing a therapist about it, but it's so hard for me to heal that. It is so hard to watch these videos but I really appreciate that they exist. Sometimes itll take me weeks to finish videos because I can only handle so much. It creates an opportunity to face some of my worst fears in a safe space and I really appreciate that you make them Kat. Thank you.
Your experience/perspective is what I feel most trans women feel. This incredible amount of hesitation because you don't want to make a woman uncomfortable. I remember it took me a bit to use women's restrooms and once I did, I only did once I was actively passing.
@@KatBlaque also, one last thing I forgot in my long comment, I appreciate that you go deep into TERFs and transphobes. Sometimes hearing someone say things I'm most scared of, buffered with your commentary, really makes me realize that... even if someone has that opinion, it just doesn't matter. They can say and do whatever they want, but as long as they don't hold a position of power over me, they can just have that mean, hateful opinion and I should not let that stop me from being me.
I can understand where the hesitation comes from and I think it's obviously at least in part cuz you're a kind person who wouldn't want to make a woman uncomfortable. But you are also woman and you deserve to feel safe too 💖 you deserve to be able to call yourself what your are. I hope the time you're comfortable with that comes soon.
I feel you. I’m still working on my internalized transphobia too. It’s a process for sure
There are some men allowed in women spaces too fyi, imo as long as you're reading the room and not monopolizing the Convo idc if you're there
I might just not understand people who are more sexual than me (which is most people) but as a trans woman who dates women, I'm not going to bars to have sex, if I go to a bar it's to meet people who I MIGHT have sex with IF we get along and there's MUTUAL attraction. And I'm not dating "straight" or "lesbian" women, I'm dating women with whom I have mutual attraction with REGARDLESS of their identity (usually bi girls who later transition to being trans guys haha). I'm always surprised by this assumption that I'm trying to hit on, date, or hook up with people who aren't attracted to me. Why would I want to do that. If you aren't into me, don't worry, I'm here for the other people here who are.
They're not talking about you, then. But let's just not dismiss other people's experiences based on what YOU do or don't do/experience!
@@LadyAstarionAncunin the thing is.. for the terfs in these discussions ALL trans women are painted as potential predators.. much like conservatives tossing the "groomer" label around for gay men and trans women.. so AppleAtti's frustrations are totally valid
Nice 👍👍👍🙂 for u apple 🍏 att❤️💜👍👍
Tbh, as a trans woman as well, I don't think it's just about us hitting on them. It's also...I don't think they want to be around men at all while they're in the space, they just want to chill and flirt with fellow women. Having someone they read as a man walk in probably sort of bursts the bubble. They didn't go into the space planning to interact with men at all--and given that they instinctively categorize us as men, it's probably not fun for them to see us in there. Which is sh*tty for us, but unfortunately it's not just bigotry.
You're so well-spoken, Kat. You really have a knack for this.
As a trans lesbian, I also totally understand why cis lesbians wouldn't want anything to do with a penis. I'm totally disgusted by penises, including my own. It's a difficult situation, especially when the surgery option costs millions
I'm so sorry. Hating your own body is so painful.
I hope you can love it someday and if you need surgery to do that, then I hope you can afford it someday.
Sending you love. 💜
So did you always found it disgusting or it started with puberty??
@@JaxAndree thank you so much! It's nice to hear that. 💗
@@estebanbr7596 As far back as I can remember
Trans women become lesbians after Cis men reject them. Sex and love are not entitled human rights.
Back in the nineties my dad regularly went to a lesbian bar bc "they had the best drinks at the best prices and they were full of fun people" but he never hit on any of the women. Never. And I think that's the important difference. It's like straight people who go to gay bars to help their friends feel more comfortable, or to just support the business. I think it's a very nuanced issue on who should and shouldn't be allowed in lesbian spaces, and I think my personal line is "men hitting on the women in that space"
i think this always go to behavior. just bc someone is existing in a specific space, doesn't mean they're predatory. i don't think we should equate someone who clearly has a predatory behavior to someone who just want to hang out and have fun.
I'm picturing your dad as Homer Simpson, FYI.
"Wait a minute...this lesbian bar doesn't have any fire exits!"
@@erraticonteuse My dad is an HVAC repair man and helped the owners figure out their AC unit one summer! He said he was sick of being hot every night he was there and did it for free just so he could have a cold bar with a cold beer.
My father was also in several punk bands over the years and once wrote a song called I Wish I Was A Lesbian, bc he was tired of not finding real love like the girls at that bar were able to find.
He's kinda cool lol
@@torrencewaespe3409 YOUR DAD WROTE "I WISH I WAS A LESBIAN"???? I LOVED that song in high school!!!
@@erraticonteuse You're probably familiar with Loudon Wainwright III 's, my dad's band was super local to Cincinnati and none of their music is online and I've never come across physical copies anywhere. Unfortunately my dad isn't*that* cool, but he needed room for improvement anyways
As a AFAB nonbinary pansexual person in lesbian spaces. I feel that a lot of time AMAB people are made into the villans (Not a fan of using AGAB but i think its relevant). Id never be told im invading a lesbian space. It wont ever be an issue for me because of the whole 'women lite' shit. But for other nonbinary and trans lesbian friends it can be. I think people misunderstand the point of spaces. Every individual has different boundaries. Its ok to be a lesbian who doesnt want to date someone with certain parts or presentation but they can still exist in the same space as you without it being 'unsafe'. Their lesbianhood isnt invalidated because you arent interested in them. And the general refusal to clearly seperate cis men predating on lesbians vs trans women who are lesbians trying to exist in a space annoys me. They are not the same. In some very rare cases you may not be able to tell which someone is but thats where your individual right and preferences come in. You dont have to interact with that person. If you feel unsafe (as in they are not taking No for an answer or are behaving aggressively etc regardless of gender) then thats obviously not good but that isnt caused by trans lesbians? thats caused by people abusing a space either by intentionally infiltrating it (eg cis men) or by them being a disrespectful person (Cis or trans lesbians can overstep ur boundaries it isnt inherently to do with transness.)
Edit: some fantastic replies in the comments but just a trigger warning there are also some transphobes in the replies to this comment.
You hit it right on the head when you said that NB afab people are just seen as “woman lite”. It’s such a weird patriarchal thing to hold on to. The sentiment honestly kind of reminds me of a dark inverse where straight men call women lesbians if they’re not into them.
@@666kittycat666 Omg unrelated but your pfp is the same image I used as a wallpaper for my old computer. Love spotted hyenas
i’m an afab nb lesbian and my partner is an amab nb lesbian and it is so apparent how differently we are viewed in a community that is supposed to treat us as equals
Yeah, the whole "trans people who haven't transitioned shouldn't be in the space" thing is just "only trans women we think that aren't icky are allowed in" which completely ignores what you said where if you don't like a person in a space you don't have to interact with them, there isn't an epidemic of trans women going to spaces and screaming at people, we're usually pretty hyper aware of our presentation when we're in a space and if we were going to queer bars to prey on people we would get tossed out like any other creep, no one gives trans women a free pass to harass people, the reverse is true and any time a trans woman does be a creep there's thousands of articles made about her
you've articulated what i was thinking so well, thank you
This is a fantastic video. I feel like discussions over this and similar subjects can just turn into screaming matches a lot of the time so thank you so much for this.
i have so many feelings about gender expression and sexuality and ive honestly never felt more fulfilled by conversations on this topic (': and sososo relieved that the all encompassing ✨capitalism✨ is highlighted as a medium which all of these issues are filtered through. its like a breath of fresh air, thank you 🙏💖
Hi Kat!
I'm a transgender woman and I think I consider myself a lesbian? See, I'm pretty much only exclusively attracted to women, but I am terrified of even claiming to be a lesbian because even though I've been transitionning socially openly for about two years now, and my name and legal gender are going to be changed officially within 30 days of writing this, and I'm on hormones (though it hasn't been long), I'm still afraid of stepping in a place where I'm not wanted.
If you go on a subreddit like r/MtF, it's chock-full of trans lesbians who have been on hormones for like 6 months, who are terrified at the thought of going to the ladies' room for fear of making other women uncomfortable, or of causing any kind of scene. Mostly, the trans women I've known are apoplectic with fear of intruding, of disrupting, or of just walking into spaces where we don't belong. It hurts because it's something that we're all very self-conscious about.
When I hear this sort of thing, "trans women are invading women-only spaces, they're not real women, etc." I'm always really confused. Where are they, these aggressively confident, non-performing trans women? You know, they keep talking about these trans women, who "don't even do anything to try and be outwardly feminine", and who haven't even started hormones, and who don't pass at all, and like, uh... Really? You've really seen these trans women? Where the fuck are they? I've never met them.
They don't exist as a far as I can tell. My wife sobbed uncontrollably when she told me she was pre GRS, because she was convinced I would call her a man and hang up on her. I already didn't like TERFS but that experience made trans rights the hill I'm dying on. And for context, I am cis, and cis men have treated me very badly because I'm femme. So I'm not a fish holder fan either. But those men aren't my wife's fault!
I've known more than one trans woman who often (as they put it) "goes butch." I'm not saying that to defend people who want to exclude trans women from lesbian spaces. Just pointing out that being a woman or girl doesn't mean wearing pink and acting like a valley girl stereotype. You can wear whatever the heck you want and, for the love of humanity, do not let other people dictate whether you're going to change your body or personality to fit into their expectations of your gender. This applies to trans women (and all other genders) as well.
(I'm a straight, cis woman, full disclosure.)
@Yeetus debeetus I don‘t think a nazi‘s opinion matters to anyone here, least of all, lesbians
@Yeetus debeetus being a woman attracted to women only makes you a lesbian so there's everything lesbian about her. You forgetting how sexualities are defined?
I'm sad that you feel that way, and I don't want to sound patronizing, but I want to tell you that you have every right to identify as a lesbian and step into lesbian spaces no matter what you look like!!! I've got two friends who are out trans lesbians and don't pass at all (i'm not saying this to be mean, they know that + i live in a country that makes transition really hard for people) and they are confident in their identities, even though they are not "outwardly feminine" at all. So - such lesbians exist (they are not a myth haha), but even if they make some cis women uncomfortable, they have every right to act and look any way they want, you do as well. The way cis people treat trans people is not trans people's fault, it's cis people's fault. I hope you'll feel more confident soon, because your identity is valid and beautiful!!
This conversation is so interesting to me, coming from a place of being a “former lesbian” who’s now a trans guy. I was allowed to be so, so butch at the bar I went to with my sapphic friends - I’m talking binding my chest and everything else traditionally masc except hormones. And nobody batted an eyelash. In a weird way, going to that bar with my friends and noticing how out of place I felt in a space where I really thought I’d feel more comfortable and “myself” than ever, was formative in my journey to transitioning. Obviously I wouldn’t feel comfortable going back to a lesbian bar, but I’m glad I had the opportunity to do so when I was still early in my gender journey. I guess my point is that people aren’t finished products; you might be meeting someone new right when they’re in the most liminal space they’ve ever been in. I would wager that this might especially be the case in queer spaces where people generally feel more comfortable trying out new things and exploring their gender expression. I don’t want anyone to lose that opportunity just because they don’t meet an impossible, arbitrary, constantly-shifting standard of femininity that I, as a “butch lesbian,” was allowed to just skirt past (no pun intended).
Wierd thing is I'm a trans man and an still in this lesbian online chat Ivd been in before I came out. No one there really cares since I just monitor the chat. There's been several lesbian chats that literally wouldn't let me leave. But on that same platform I've seen trans woman being treated like shit. like what's with that
I think despite what people say they only care about what's between someone's legs when it comes to acceptance in places like these. People born female at birth then transitioned to nonbinary or trans men get a base no matter how masc they are. While people born male at birth then transition to nonbinary or trans women dont get a base and instead get hate due to whats between their legs. Its feels extremely invalidating for the ones judged i think and everyone pretends its not suppose to be. Even tho the literal issue is whats between the legs. It took me yrs to stop myself from thinking the same way and i found myself alot less judgemental and alot more understanding and relaxed about it and my own transition but also intolerant about people who still think this way.
@@lunawolfheart336 "Penis skawy :(" is their logic. As a trans guy who has been in verbal fist-fights with TERFs in online spaces, it always always always boils down to them weaponising their trauma against others without having a shred of humanity while doing it.
@@Kris-wo4pj do u rly think afab ppl dont experience hate for whats between their legs too? like r u serious rn .... this is the most ignorant statement ive seen here
You can have hobbies and attractions without physically changing yourself
I LOOVE U N UR CHANNEL! You're so open and honest. Your fun to listen to. And u are just so real.
Trans-women should look for the types of partners they are interested in who are ALSO specifically interested - or at least open to TRANSWOMEN. It’s called consent. And people are allowed to have their sexual preferences. If you want to be trans, more power to you but you can’t then pretend you are the exact same thing as a woman who was born a woman and that anyone attracted to women should want you or they’re bigoted. At that point you want everyone else to lose their own rights to give you more and that’s called entitlement.
We are talking about bars not bedrooms. I’ve been to a few lesbian nights at bars and I have absolute no interest in women and wasn’t required to sleep with one upon entry. So this is a fascinating understanding of bar culture. At the straight bars I tend to go to, it’s fairly understood that sharing a space with someone doesn’t mean you’re forced to sleep with them.
I want to flip the script a little bit: so I'm a cis bi/ace-spec woman who lives in a small-ish town with no lesbian bars, but before the pandemic there was a monthly sapphic meetup/dance party organized by a trans woman that I used to go to and it was really good and fun and valuable to me. I'm so thankful that the woman who was motivated to organize these events decided to make a welcoming space for me even though cis women like me have made a lot of lesbian spaces unwelcoming to trans women - I'm honestly *more* understanding of why trans people would want their own space without cis people than why cis lesbians would feel like they need a cis only space, so I'm really honored to be included. And yeah, because it was an event organized by a trans person, the people who showed up were often disproportionally trans, and by that I don't even mean it was majority trans, just maybe a lot closer to 50/50 than most spaces, yno? Because trans people tend to know a lot of trans people. So in my city trans lesbians are why we have even a little bit of a lesbian scene and I'm really grateful.
And as was alluded to by a couple callers, I feel safer and more welcome in a space like this than I would in a space that wanted to police people's lesbian cred because even though I'm not trans, my bi-ness and ace-ness would likely also make me unwelcome in terfy lesbian spaces. Honestly even if I were allosexual and strictly lesbian, I like to think that I wouldn't want to be in community with a bunch of transphobes, and I certainly wouldn't want to date one. So that's relevant to the thing you see sometimes when people are like "well trans women can have their own spaces and cis women can have their own spaces problem solved" like what if I have trans friends and trans loved ones and don't want to hang out with or date people who hate them though?
That's really awesome! I can't speak for other trans women, but personally I don't think that trans women would want to exclude cis women. We are women, and cis women are also women, and we just want to be "one of the girls".
Why are you doing all this dividing lgbtq into smaller fringe groups? There's never gonna be any transwomen for real. Without Natural Born women.
I was thinking the same thing listening to these conversations! I'm a cis lesbian and I wouldn't be able to fully relax in a space where trans-exclusionist creeps are looming. I don't understand how some cis lesbians could prefer the company of transphobes over trans lesbians.
And when they discussed the idea of a trans-exclusionary lesbian bar, I wanted to scream! The last thing our community needs is a space where young lesbians are lured in to be indoctrinated by transphobes. An explicitly trans-inclusive lesbian bar would be wonderful, but creating a "safe space" for transphobes would add insult to the injury that transphobes have already dealt our community.@@MiriamClairify
I’ve never seen so much stock footage of women where they aren’t eating salad.
lol. I spent more time looking for stock footage than I did hosting and editing the episode. lol.
Noble pursuit if I ever heard one.
When I helped run a nonprofit group for the bi community in the early aughts, I facilitated trans folks. Not all of them identified as bi or pan but both the lesbian and the gay communities in our city made them feel unwelcome so they turned to us. Since many of us had encountered similar issues in those communities, we understood what our trans neighbors had encountered. There were a few regular bi peeps who felt we shouldn't welcome trans hetero, gay and lesbian people but most of us felt we were all in this together. We were struggling for acceptance by the general public so what would it be saying about us if we turned our backs? What harm would we be inflicting by doing so? What wonderful friendships and insights would we be missing by rejecting non-bi trans humans? What message would that be sending to the trans bi members we were attempting to help?
I am always confused as to why there aren't things like trans bars etc? Like people are always complaining about trans people in bars or sports etc etc - well why can't trans people have their own stuff too?
Because there aren't very many of us, and most of us are dirt poor.
It's a really complicated issue. I personally know men who are just that horny/desperate/fetishist that they do pretend to be transwomen in order to get with lesbians. I also know bi transwomen who prefer women and suffer because "Kevin with a fish" (lol) gives them a bad name. However, in real life, I find it easy to tell the two apart. There's definitely a different vibe with transwomen, call it intuition or whatever. Men who pretend to be trans are easy to spot imo, they often oversexualize topics in conversations with women, they're pushy when it comes to dating/hookups, and yes, they usually don't "look queer".
Yes! And generally those men probably will not respect boundaries and be creepy so I’ll just reject them anyways just like I would reject an afab lesbian that doesn’t respect my boundaries 🤷🏻♀️
@@antonialoos546 have to agree. Cis guys, gay or straight, have a tendency to just ignore your boundaries and bumrush your intimacy to get laid
> I personally know men who are just that horny/desperate/fetishist that they do pretend to be transwomen in order to get with lesbians
sure you do lol
Believe whatever you want if it makes you feel better but that won't change reality unfortunately.
@@nukiradio That´s not what i said. I was just talking about man crossdressers that infiltrate lesbian spaces for fetishist reasons. But yeah a lot of guys don´t understand consent still.
I've never been a fan of call-in segments, but I actually found this super interesting to listen to.
Aw thank you. That's good to hear! I'm experimenting with formats and such.
@@KatBlaque this might have to do with the recent editing changes you've made also. I find myself more engaged as the videos are more aesthetically pleasing to listen to while a convo is going on
same!!
This was a great conversation. I completely agreed with the second caller. Awesome work Kat!
Love the editing in this, Kat!!!!
As a trans woman lesbian, I just wanted to throw my experience into the ring. I've been transitioning medically for 3 years now and have socially transitioned and all of that as well. Due to a LOT of past abuse I am guy shy and so prefer being in women's only spaces, however I really only feel comfortable doing that online since I have a lot of self-esteem issues about my appearance.
So in public queer spaces I'll tend to only really hang out with other queer trans girls since it's just a lot easier and they're more understanding. Plus I just feel really predatory being in cis lesbian spaces so I just avoid them. It's nice to know a lot of cis lesbians are becoming more accepting of trans women in women's spaces though, and hopefully things will be better for the generations to come!
Im so sorry for that. I just want you to know that you are a very beautiful woman and know you'll find a space between lesbian and cis women as well as non cis.
Ignore the above, you will always be who you know yourself to be 😊
@Yeetus debeetus cope
@Yeetus debeetus Yellow Whales Never Bake Apple Waffles
@Yeetus debeetus real mature
I love the caller who calls out increasing income inequality. It seems so obvious to me... a lot of the lesbian inclusive spaces that are able to stay afloat have to intentionally cater to gay men as well, and while I love a mixed space, there’s a difference between including our friends and having next to no spaces left that actually CENTER us.
Lesbains don't drink as much tho 😒
I feel for you. My local nightclub holds a trans night once a month on a Wednesday. Maybe you could suggest something similar for lesbians (assuming there's enough demand).
Wow I didn't know it was this complex. Our bar in dallas welcomes all and our biggest complaint is that it has become so busy its crawling with suburban tourists that want to be seen and pictured at a gay bar so they can share them on Facebook or Instagram its annoying.
Thanks for helping facilitate hard discussions. Too many people are afraid to have this kind of discourse out of fear of saying the wrong thing or being labelled something they're not. Despite being a afab nonbinary pansexual who moves through the world presenting exclusively fem, I've been finding myself working through some occasional unsavory thoughts that border onto terf-y territory these past couple of years after a few friends who previously lived and identified as male have come out as trans women. Having experienced gender dysphoria myself from ages 3/4 - 13, and ultimately deciding against attempting to transition, the fact these types of sentiments sometimes cross my mind ("are there really men just using trans/NB as a vehicle to infiltrate our spaces?"... "is she *actually* trans?", etc), utterly disgusts me as I understand the struggle with gender identity. I enjoy seeking out breadtube content like yours that helps me stay informed on current community issues and conversations that I might otherwise not have the ability to be exposed to given I'm very cis passing and my friend circles at large are very hetero-centric. Like you said, we're ultimately just trying to find mutual understanding in the end. Thanks so much for this.
Brilliant video. Very interesting. As a British non passing trans woman I’ve never felt super confident in lesbian bars when I go with my lesbian friends, but the handful of times I’ve been I’ve been flirted with a bit and had a lot of lovely acceptance which was surprising and lovely. I was performing in cabaret those times though so that may have helped.
Woah Edalia Day is a cool ass name, like super awesome, im adding it on my baby name list!
@@kikibara1 Aw thanks Kikibara :)
You have really nice hair 🥰
@fizzsoda Thanks. That's really lovely. But I'm 6' 4'' with a low voice and I definitely don't pass. And I accept and love myself knowing that fact. It took a long while to get to this place but I used to think myself ugly for not passing but now I accept that I'm beautiful and that I don't pass and that those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive and that my self worth needn't be tied into that.
@@EdaliaDayCreative at some point enough is enough,
You can only do so much for others
Before you have to sacrifice your personal happiness.
So I commend you for trying to pass,
But also for knowing your limits.
The idea that there is a rampage of trans women invading women’s spaces and proudly taking up real estate there is so interesting to me, because it shows that that person is probably never really met a trans woman. I am over a year into my transition and have physically changed quite a lot (have visible breasts now much, much longer hair, shave every morning), yet every time I’m out in public I put on a concealing jacket and use the men’s restroom. I can’t imagine boldly strolling into any space where I could potentially be seen as a man because that is the validation of all of my intrusive thoughts. I don’t swim anymore, because I don’t know what to wear to be not perceived as a pervert.
While I understand and sympathize with the fact that you personally would not feel comfortable going into a gendered space where you could be misinterpretted as a man, I will say that not all trans women are like you. I'm a cis lesbian who has seen people at a lesbian bar/club who were like, 6ft tall with a beard and a tshirt that said "she/her" in jeans and a button with lesbian flags on it. While I don't think all trans women have to pass, and I don't think lesbian bars need to even be fully gendered or exclusive (there were a handful of men there too, cis men who were presumedly gay and some trans men) but there are still definitely people who don't put in any effort to "pass" and still call themselves women/trans.
@@WalkInMyPawsteps Trans women should make an effort to-be less tall?
@@skyclaw stop trying to put words in their mouths. That is not what "Shion" meant and you know it!
@@Skies133 u got trolled >:D
@@Skies133 okay, but mentioning the height is just rude and unnecessary. Trans women are constantly bullied for being tall and it's not fun. The point isn't that specific person, the point is that it's not great to use someone's height as part of the evidence that they're not a woman.
As a heavily sapphic bi woman I feel like the biggest concern right now should be trying to understand our trans sisters and how they’d feel about the situation. We have so many shared experiences as far as having our womanhood questioned and facing constant fetishization and I think any allyship with other women is really necessary right now. We should be worried about overcoming the patriarchal governing of most places and homophobia and transphobia for shutting down these bars. If we want to continue having safe places where we can be around other women without judgement we need to accept our differences and be open minded to each other. Some of the biggest supports in my life have been trans women. So many trans women have helped me in my struggle with my identity and sexuality. They really help to hold the lgbtq+ community as a whole and get so so little credit for it.
This 💯
It's over.
it is so interesting to hear women talk about these issues. You take other peoples feeling so much into consideration. For exemple ''im not going o reject that reaction'' ''I know transitioning is hard'' etc. As man i would tell you ''dont feel guilty for liking what you like'', dont have to make excuses, dont have to force yourself to like something you are not attracted to. I got my preferences and there is no power in this world that would make me feel otherwise. That doesnt mean that you hate what doesnt fit your preferences.
This is a fascinating conversation, thank you. I came out as bi (eventually pan) in 1987. I am perceived as “femme” and back then when I went to lesbian bars I was looked at suspiciously and looked down on for not looking more “masculine”. Back then to have long hair and wear makeup was not accepted at all (publicly at least). I think it’s ever-changing, ever-evolving. It used to be only LG rights, it evolved slowly (I remember a popular pride march voting to take the B out of the march because they thought it “watered down” the political message!) to LBG, then T, Q, etc. Also, finances have always been rough for lesbian bars. I remember the only lesbian bar “616” in Northampton, MA (lesbian haven in the US) closing way back in the 80s and how upset we were way back then. Economics. Great topic, thanks for this!
This point about being femme is so, so true! It always bugs me because the people criticising trans and cis women and enbys for not being feminine enough pretend like our community hasn't historically and even today been judging and suspicious of femme lesbians and bi women.
@@shraika LGB would be fine but they had to include the problematic T as well 😂
@@user-vl8ws4wd7o I prefer femme woman... I thought the point of the pride group was that you could dress how you wanted though? Like woman that look masculine are not my type but why would they hate the woman that hate the femmes?
@@shraika Trans people have always been a part of this community. Cope and seethe.
Signed,
A cis bi woman
@@yol_n you don’t prefer “femme women” you prefer feminine (I would hope straight) women, unless you, a self-admittedly straight man are just hitting on lesbians who don’t want anything to do with you ☠️☠️ Lord. Also why in the world do you think you have any authority over the “T”
Im just really curious to know how many cis lesbians have actually had these horror stories where cis men have impersonated a transwoman to try and get with a lesbian happen to them. I am by no means saying it has never happened, but it all seems to be word of mouth or on dating apps, not in person. And then even in that instance it is not transwomen that are to blame, it's predatious men. They're acting like transwomen are coming in droves to lesbian bars and driving all the lesbians out when they are a much smaller demographic than cis lesbians. I think the root to this fear is fear of losing their identity, and the weird hierarchy that has been created i.e "gold star" lesbians who are somehow MORE GAY and therefore superior to lesbians that have had sex with men and came out later, which is utter bs. I have a friend who is a lesbian, but she is attracted to a man, but vehemently refuses to call herself bi because somehow that's a bad thing, and the terrible thing is she WOULD lose lesbian friends by coming out as bi due to the stigma. It means shedding her identity and perceived superiority as a lesbian. It all boils down to insecurity. None of this really matters in the grand scheme of things, sexually is as much of what you make it. I'm tired, can we do more cherry popping instead of cherry picking babes 🧍♀️
@Hayley Bagels You are part of the problem. Sincerely, another straight woman.
In trans and have actually have had a few people pretend to be trans so I let my gaurd down. But these people were chasers and fetishizing trans people not lesbians. And this was only on the online space too. Not saying men don't pretend to be woman to catfish lesbians because before I came out as a trans man that has happened to me too but again only on the online space. But at the same time I've been just as hurt and abused by cis woman. This isint a men = evil problem. This is a problem with capatalism
I remember before I figured out I was a trans man and at the time just thought I was a bi woman I was in a lesbian chat. They all knew I was bi but the second I went on a date with a man I got dogpiled on like it was bad or something. The same woman who got mad that I was bi also tried to force me info daiting her cis male friend? Idk these people really don't make any sense. Similar stuff has happened to my partners who are cis woman and in those chats. The moment they mention they are daiting me a trans man suddenly they are invalid.
I've also had instances of lesbians hitting on me. they know I'm a trans man they know I present very masculine.i look very masculine. But they refuse to acknowledge that they're probably bi.
If this actually happens to cis lesbians too, their distrust should be towards actual cis men being the perpetrators and not trans women. They are unfairly blaming trans women for things they aren't responsible for.
Hi all, cis bi woman here. One thing that came to mind was my personal experience as a young queer in the 2000s bar scene in Chicago. The Britney/ Madonna/ Xtina kiss created this huge boom of "bisexual" women that plagued the scene. For YEARS, every time I went to a bar, it was digging through a sea of faux-bi women, who just wanted to experiment, or have one nighters, but recoiled at the idea of a legitimate lesbian-only relationship.
Up to this point, biphobia wasn't so deep (at least in Chicago), and the trans lesbians were known to frequent these bars, and it wasn't really an issue for the majority of women.
Gold star lesbians aside; After the Britney/Xtina kiss, bi women were seen as problematic, and it was expected that if you were bi, you should be avoided because you probably were part of the fad. And yes, many bi women began to identify as lesbian or leave the bar scene altogether (like me).
I wonder if there's an element of worry that the rising numbers of trans, and nonbinary queers (especially in young people under 30) are subconsciously being seen as a trend; where only after a few years, the real trans lesbians will be left and we can "trust/believe" they are safe to pursue real relationships with??
I don't want to be misunderstood that trans and nonbinary or Ace people are a trend, but let's be real, so many young people (sometimes entire HS classrooms) are suddenly self identified as these identities that have real implications and lifestyle consequences other than being rare and non mainstream. It makes me think that older lesbians may be seeing a pattern of queer trends going "mainstream" and making the scene difficult to navigate besides having preference or trauma related to these transphobic fears??
I'm all for trans lesbians and trans bisexual women being part of the lesbian scene, but I can definitely see the "worry" over non binary(AMAB & male presenting) trans people going into a space where many lesbians have experienced abuse and assault at the hands of men and trans men.
All the lesbian bars in my city are super inclusive and me and all my friends always feel super welcome. But I have known some trans-masculine friends of mine be refused service at gay bars for not being real men so idk
The questions about dating apps reminded me of the James Charles situation a few years back where he posted photos of himself like you’d see on TH-cam, and listed himself as a straight woman because he only wanted straight men to respond… and that was just wrong. Those sorts of things are cause so many problems for the community. Because of people like him, trans women become targets because they get grouped into the same category as people like him, and that’s very dangerous.
I feel like bottom line having genital preferences is fine but don't make that somebody else's problem and don't project weird shit onto trans women
Terfs: "mmm, I dont know how to tell you I'm not personally interested, I'll just say you're a rapist male!"
Its not even a genital preference at this point, for most it seems like a genital *requirement* :/
People might do have a genital requirement in regards to their partner(s) when it comes to sex.
There are various reasons why people might not like a certain genital.
... it could be that they might consider the form unappealing.
... it could be that they are neutral to the appearance of the form but it doesn't turn them on at all
... it could be that they have had traumatic experiences regarding the genital
... it could be that they were raped by a person or people with that genital
To claim that a person has to be fine with the genital is in my opionin inacceptable.
Especially if the claim comes of that a person should "get over" their genital preference / genital orientation and accept anything. Because next to beinh ignorant it risks to tell a person of violence or sexual violence to shut up, not be a victim, and accept all genitals.
It doesn't help that in regards to lesbian spaces the notion of "just get over yourself and accept that dick" has been used an am argument by the patriachy to negate lesbians sexual orientation and preferences.
@@JenniferFuss this
There is a bit of an opposite problem of people who claim that all genital preference is transphobic and if you aren't ok with dating someone with a dick its a moral failure on your part
Ultimately there's nothing wrong with these preferences, and making people feel bad for not being fem enough or not liking certain genitals is stupid but there's more than one side to it
I've not had a ton of experience with lesbian bars, but what I have had has been positive. They're generally much more inclusive than gay bars that's for sure.
That's surprising to me! Can you tell me more?
theres a lesbian bar next to my house and they have trans employees. cis men are allowed as well i believe but they don't really show up | edit: for the sake of clarification, i'm neither from nyc nor from the us lol
@@KatBlaque This isn't necessarily in North America but if you check out "TOKYO BOTTOMS" they have a few videos talking about lesbian and gay inclu/exclusivity in Japan and their comparisons to living in Canada. Might be interesting!
@@KatBlaque I was kind of nervous when I first went, as someone who definitely does not pass. But everyone was friendly to me.
Gay bars definitely make it clear when you're someone who's not desirable, and if you're not a man you're not desirable. I can count the number of trans women I've met in gay men's spaces on one hand.
Not to denigrate the harms that TERFs do, I think we have a tendency to be uncharitable to women. But really I think women if anything are less likely to be transphobic than men are. But that's just my anecdotal experience.
Oh and Kat I am glad to see how you have grown!!! More power to you!
I do hate ppl who cant understand that ppl have preferences. They ask ppl to respect their preferences but dont respect other ppls preferences
Bruh 🤯 that title alone made me pull on the side of the road
As someone who is misgendered with some regularity (including being asked in a bar restroom if I'm a trans woman) I would not feel entirely comfortable going into a space that's advertised (or lets itself be known) as a trans-exclusionary zone, any more than I'd be comfortable in a space that let itself be known as "straights only".
Then again, I'd also be highly uncomfortable in a space that was "whites only", even though I'm as pale as an anemic mime.
There was this one gay club I went to a few times and it never really bothered me when I walked into the women's room and there were men, usually cis gay men, in there. They weren't trying to creep on me and they were friendly. If I went to a lesbian bar and there were cis men, or masculine looking transwomen/lesbians in the women's bathroom, it wouldn't bother me (unless they were trying to perv on me of course). But maybe it's because I am both male and female, and it just doesn't bother me. I've always been more accepting of people and as long as nobody screws around with me, I'm good.
@@leviacronym6770 Same! Back in the day, one of my favourite gay bars (now closed, sadly), only ever had unisex bathrooms. And it was fine! Kind of a refreshing change, actually, from the usual lines in women's rooms... As a footnote, this was also back when I thought I was a cis woman; I've since realised that I'm non-binary and rather genderfluid, though with a strong masc. leaning.
i have an extremely hot take about whites only spaces, so hot i'd be flamed to hell if i spoke about it
YASSS KAT! This is such a great convo especially in NYC
I can't even enter a lesbian bar where I'm although I'm a cis woman, cuz they are very selective over their clients and apparently you get in through knowing other clients, so I guess the most that kills lesbian bars is being so picky.
5:53 aside from her point about socially transitioning (edit: which i don't agree with anymore),
"started hormones 2 weeks ago", like where I live it's not that easy to get on hormones in the first place and even aside from that not everyone has the PRIVILEGE (wether that be mental health, family situation, finances, time for beaurocracy etc) to get on hormones that easily.
I think it's kind of rude to discredit trans women who aren't/haven't been on hormones for that long. It's not that easy for everyone and I wish she'd understand that.
I think she was being a bit glib, not literally meaning that you have to be in hormones for X time. Not agreeing with her, i don't think there's any way to police who comes into a gay/lesbian bar without being discriminatory in a harmful way.
Her point abt “not putting an effort into socially transitioning” is bad too , not every trans person is a kalvin garrah or blaire white whom can easily transition w no worry, some cant even socially transition or they will be beaten by cis ppl
@@Man-wolf- yes that's true and i didn't think of that.
I was just speaking from my personal experience and frustrations abt people not understanding that medical transition isnt just a matter of "if you really wanted it, you would've done it by now".
I've personally had less problems with "basic" social transition efforts (like growing long hair, wearing somewhat feminine clothes occasionally, painting my nails etc.), while not being out to my family, but yes you couldn't expect that from everyone.
I guess that would also come down to having to "prove" that ur a trans woman *- which is such a dehumanizing experience.
edit: *(or having to prove that ur trans in general)
Cis people seem to think "well since hormones and surgeries exist, every trans person has all of them instantly" purely because they haven't had to go through the transitioning system. Getting to those points in time are hard, and surgery is SURGERY, there are recovery times, risks, high costs, and many reasons why people may delay or not even have certain surgeries. Hormones too are very expensive, and in some places you need to jump through so many hoops to get to them. But cis people who seem to only know about the fact that we HAVE these things, don't realise the reality of these things, so that's why I think so many of them base their idea of being trans on medically transitioning.
@@LainInTheBrain yeah i can get it but to me people claiming “you arent putting effort into social transitioning” is them showing their lack of knowladge, for ex , i came out to my mother as trans but she basically treats it as a phase despite me being 20 no matter how many times i tell her to stop calling me a girl she wont , not everyone is priviliged enough to be instantly accepted
I am a lesbian from and living in NYC, and I've seen plenty of people who may or may not have been cis men at Cubbyhole. No one around us seemed particularly bothered by their presence. I understand that many cis women have had traumatic experiences with men and penises in general, but there is no non-intrusive way to separate cis men from trans women from AFAB lesbians who bind and take testosterone. It's an incredibly subjective task that would inevitably exclude well-meaning trans women, who are already beaten down and excluded enough from our communities as it is. Plus we have to take into account that black women are more often read as male or having male features than women of other races. The policy as suggested by the first caller would impact black trans women the most, and how is that fair at all? How is that helping lesbians? I feel LESS safe in a space where I know butch lesbians and trans women will be scrutinized to this extent, just in case we let a cis man in. Any creepy person in our lesbian bars will be dealt with accordingly-I don't understand why this has to involve unnecessarily targeting trans women and masc-presenting women.
Exactly.
“Black women are more often read as male or having male features than women of other races…” I don’t know if you genuinely don’t know how racist you sound but this is racist. Whether you’re talking about cis black women or trans black women, black women don’t look less feminine than other races of women and trans black women aren’t likely to look more masculine than trans women of other races.
@@andiman44 They said that because **racist** people think that way about black women. Pointing out a stereotype that could affect the discussion at hand does not equate to one believing or supporting said stereotype.
@@andiman44 No, as an afab black person yes black women are read as male more often than other races. We need to address the problem instead of ignoring it. This is actually a problem and saying this doesn't happen does not help.
I first caller was very triggering - it’s very classist,sexist and ableist to say ‘prove to me you are transitioning’ like what does a woman look like- does she wear make up, dresses, high heels and with delicate shoulders on a petite frame. how does a woman act- does she have a soft voice , dainty mannerisms and behaviours. She keeps talking about a Kevin with a fish and it just reminds me all those weird ass incels describing people as “Chad’s and Stacey’s”. It was very transphobic and reeks of privilege
So, I don't do bars because I have CDM, essentially, I've always got a low-key migraine and those spaces are just too painful for me, but I felt I have something to add to this conversation as a sexual trauma survivor who isn't sexually attracted to the penis. I wouldn't frequent a space that was exclusionary of trans or nonbinary people because even when I'm looking for a romantic or sexual relationship, I first need to be in a space that I feel comfortable existing in and I don't feel comfortable in an exclusionary space. That's why I left Oklahoma, I've had enough of people judging others. I try to live my life by the idea that the only people I judge are those who spend their time and energy judging others. I personally wouldn't have a problem knowing that someone I've been flirting with has equipment that I'm not attracted to, to me that just means we'd probably be better off as friends. I can honestly see myself asking someone to go somewhere more private, getting there and them saying that I need to know this before things progress and my response being something along the lines of cool, I'm not attracted to that so how about we have a glass of wine and chat because I like you and I'm cool so long as pants stay on.
amazing conversation. the second caller was so intelligent and articulate on her opinions!
I wonder if there isn't a level of classism in the convo that isn't being addressed? I don't know how much it costs to medically transition, but I can't imagine it being cheap. Plus the time it would take with surgeries and recovery. Like, isn't saying you only want to see trans women who have "transitioned far enough" leaving out a ton of women who can't afford to? Like, they'd either have to spend enough time and money on surgery, or time and money on passing makeup, you know?
I also agree with the folks saying like, you don't have to have sex with literally every woman in a lesbian bar, right? It's one thing if you're an SA survivor, and the very sight of someone who looks male might straight up trigger trauma. But if it's just like, you don't like the look of, or feel kind of uncomfortable around women who look more masculine, you could always just not talk to them, no? Am I missing something?
The only reason I was able to get Sex Reassignment Surgery is because I had insurance that covered it. Kaiser FTW! There was a time I decided against SRS because I figured I would never be able to afford it. And why bother wanting something I could never have. Thankfully I was lucky enough to be able to get it. But a lot of people aren't that lucky. So expecting a certain level of transition is classist. I personally expect people to do something. If you have made zero effort in your transition beyond calling yourself a woman and using female pronouns; I am going to have a hard time seeing you as a woman. Besides class issues; some people have medical issues that get in the way of medical transition. As someone who is disabled and chronically ill; they have my sympathy. I would absolutely cut them a whole lot of slack. But if you can transition and just choose not to; then I am going to have a hard time seeing you as a woman. I will respect their name and pronouns. I will gladly call you she if that's what you prefer. But I am not going to see you as a woman. Sorry dude but you aren't going to make my queer clitty tingle.
you've got it pretty much on the nose i think.
money is usually only an issue in America, so that aspect is important, but it is strictly American, in other countries most things are covered by insurance or government healthcare (but often not all of it like FFS might be considered esthetic and not medical treatment etc etc).
the bottom line is , it's reactionary. we can unpack that reactionary-ness but i don't have time for that now lel
@@asuka_the_void_witch Money is less of a problem in *most* of the world, sure. But parts of North Africa and Asia don't have universal healthcare and will still have to deal with cost and access. Either because the trans person can't afford it and their country doesn't have universal healthcare, or the country itself doesn't have access to the resources necessary for the surgeries.
Even places *with* universal healthcare systems will often exclude gender-adfirmation surgery. Some are actively trying to outlaw it or create expensive and time-consuming red tape (lookin' at you, UK). In those countries, however, rich folks can still afford to travel somewhere where they can pay to get the surgery instead. Similar to how we in the US know that outlawing abortion really only does so for the poor, since rich folks can just fly to where it's legal.
@@asuka_the_void_witch I was really lucky to have insurance that covered my Sex Reassignment Surgery when I lived in California. Now that I live in Nevada I don't have that insurance. So I am going to have to conduct a fundraiser to cover breast implants. My old insurance covered implants for trans women as well as Facial Feminization Surgery. I am kicking myself in the ass for not having gotten those surgeries while I had the chance.
I feel like blaming trans women for lesbian bars closing is ridiculous. I feel like finances, online dating and maybe overspecialization are more to blame than anything.
That and the recent pandemic making it very hard to both run a business and also keep everyone safe, final nail in the coffin really
It's so conspiratorial. It's like blaming an ever present worldwide cabal for all your problems. Then gendering the whole thing. Some real Alex Jones BS.
Oh man I love your kate bush and sister of mercy posters. Great vid btw
i feel like its a small minority of ppl being rude that is getting highlighted. ive seen a few instances of trans women getting upset at cis lesbians for not wanting to date/hook up with them which is just insane. but that's not all trans women.
It’s been my experience that lesbians have always been protective of their spaces. Probably because they have so few! But in the 90s I (a gay man) went with a group of lesbian friends to a lesbian bar and got kicked out. Later in the 90s I was invited to a lesbian bar, by its manager, to help teach a dance class-and the patrons of that bar kicked me out. The manager profusely apologized, but it got ugly before I was hustled out the back door.
In some ways it must be worse now, because the shrinking bar scene means there are fewer lesbian-only spaces. Hell, even as a gay man, I feel the loss of gay-only spaces. The last time I went to a gay bar, I got hit on by straight women. That’s not the reason I stopped going to bars, but it was certainly the last nail in the coffin--because if gay bars are going to feel like straight bars, then why drive an hour to go to one?
It took me four years to be brave enough to go on a dating app. Now I’m paranoid that TERFs are using me as an example
Hello. When I was going to certain clubs the places I heard were being shut down due to noise, and fights. It had nothing to do with other people's preference. I stopped going to clubs, and bars a long time ago. It was getting very disrespectful. At least I tried to be around certain people. I had safety concerns. This was in new york city. Another reason I stopped going to clubs, and bars was that I was charged more for drinks, because I wear men's clothes. I was sent to another toilet stall, because I wear men's clothes. They even asked me what I was then told me to use another toilet made for women, or anyone that wore men's clothes. That made me feel like I didn't belong there in their community, because of my appearance. I wanted to fit in a world where no one thinks of me as a threat. I never went back. I stay away from places that I'm not welcome.
A Kevin with a fish ....😂
Lesbian and gay bars are closing down, and it's sad from a nostalgia point of view, but the reason this is happening is because they're no longer indispensable to queer life. The reason they historically existed is so that lgbt (that's right, trans people have always existed in these spaces, it's not new) people could safely meet other people like them for romance, friendship, and sex. Now that we have social media and dating apps and a much more welcoming culture, people don't need an exclusive bar to hang out in. Add pandemic pressures to that and it pretty much explains everything. It has nothing to do with trans people. That person is just a bigot.
Ohh love the captions and the editing. It’s really calming to view.
Thank you so much!
Personally, as a lesbian myself, I don't view sex as the ultimate goal in a relationship. I can't speak for all or even the majority of lesbians, but I'm okay with (and honestly prefer) a romantic relationship that is non-sexual.
I am fine with dating a pre-op trans woman even though I'm not interested in sexual intercourse (penis in vagina) because I don't feel like sex is a necessity.
But I know that many lesbians do not feel the same, and I'm okay with that. I don't think it's transphobic to reject a trans woman because you're looking for a sexual relationship, and while I don't personally feel that way, I understand why someone would.
Thank you for these videos, Kat. Very informative. I am someone who has great difficulty wrapping my head around transgenderism. I am supportive, but very confused most of the time. Your content helps me to understand these things a bit more.
i’m pretty sure if you asked the first caller if she defined womanhood by being feminine, she’d say no, that even having that sentiment would be misogyny but she is willing to subject trans women who don’t pass to that. “the only thing they have to show that they really are a woman is take my word for it” … like you can’t make this up 😭
Also, the whole going into certain spaces...most Trans people, whether trans men or trans women, or non-binary people, tend to go into spaces that looks more like what they pass as. Not always, but I don't currently feel comfortable going into men spaces, even though I'm a guy, because I'm pretty fem yet. But, I also know, that with my voice dropping and my form changing, that may not always be the case, and I do not want to make women feel uncomfortable, because I understand that hesitancy.
As a trans guy who transitioned over a decade ago, this is true. Before HRT and before getting comfortable and used to living as myself, I kept to general LGBT+ spaces, I never felt comfortable or like I fit into gay male spaces- if anything going to gay bars and being around cis gay men made me feel more dysphoric.
Now ten years later I barely think twice about it.
I didn't feel comfortable in men's bathrooms for awhile but seeing the discomfort of the women when I'd walk into the women's bathrooms and being told I don't belong there happened so much I made the change. In men's bathrooms no one cares no one talks to you they just piss and leave. It's still an ajustitment tho a year later after starting to use the men's bathroom
I’m afab non-binary and I always just go to the women’s bathroom even though whenever I go out in public im assumed as a man if I don’t speak. I just mainly hope I’m not told anything
Is a cis straight woman allowed to go to a lesbian bar if she’s questioning? This is a legit question I have for lesbians.
Haven't watched the whole video yet... But imo the REAL reason lesbian bars usually have trouble staying open is because wlw* folks (*cis, trans or nb)... We tend to couple up and never be seen again lmao. 🤣