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Yeah, she was what we used to call a "Top Shelf Honey". She did her thang, and took zero guff from anybody. Probably told all those dirty revolting peasants (see what I did there?) they better take a step back before she lost her patience with them. 😂
It's a perspective we rarely see, which makes it so much more interesting. I really enjoy the Vulgar History podcast for historical tales of a variety of women.
Joan was quite a woman! The main point that I've learned from your series on the high noble women of the medieval period is that, aside from that fact that most of them were married off to suit their families at very early ages, they actually had a lot more agency than is commonly thought.
Yes, there are definitely some great examples of very tough and canny women. Lady Margaret Beaufort and Margaret of Anjou spring to mind as well. It's a relief to know they weren't all just baby machines and doormats.
In this age of misinformation and false history it is so refreshing to hear primary sources being cited. I can just listen, knowing this information has been vetted by a reputable source! That’s such an accomplishment. Thank you for your hard work!!
I always get a kick out of medieval royal history, because you have things like "the Princess of Wales was secretly married and then lived as a bigamist for years even before she married the Prince". Can you imagine that happening today? The scandals that make the press lose their minds today are hilariously simple by comparison. 😂😂
I'm now just imagining if it turned out Catherine had been a secret bigamist before she married William. It would certainly distract the media from Harry and Meghan, I'll say that much. 😂 Of course if it threw the legitimacy of the Wales's children into question, then we could be looking at King Henry IX.
Or the now deceased Princess of Wales having an affair with a ginger-haired army officer while still married to the present King and her ginger-haired second son being the result of that affair?
What a fascinating story! I'm surprised it hasn't been utilized by historical novelists (at least as far as I know). All those marriages! And it seems she loved her first the best. I wonder what her second, enforced marriage, was really like. Thank you so much for a lovely episode. In response to your customary signoff, I would say, "Keep Teaching!"
Yes, her story is just ripe for a historical novel. I'm surprised it's not better known about too. I'd love to have a better insight into that second marriage as well. She certainly didn't flinch when it came to dumping him, that's for sure.
I'm fairly certain GRR Martin based a few characters from Song of Ice and Fire on Joan.. Or certainly some situations they found themselves in mirror her life Secret marriages ( Jeyne Pool, Lyanna Stark, ) Being desired by the King/Prince= Joanna Lannister Scandal at a tournament: Lyanna
@@anaihilator You couldn't prove it by me. I only watched the first episode of GOT. However, I did envision a whole television miniseries, beginning with the downfall of the Duke of Kent and carrying on through the many episodes of Joan's life. So many juicy roles would be possible!
My fave series of historical novels has a character very closely based on Joan! It's Susan Howatch's trilogy of Penmarric, Cashelmara & The Wheel of Fortune. It's not a straight re-telling- the royal family is changed into a noble family of a more recent era, one for each book, & they go from "Matilda & Stephen" to "Henry V". So obviously it's VERY fictional, but the relationships of the characters are bang-on, & it's ended up helping me learn the actual history.
Wow. I knew so little about her before this video. She was very remarkable! What a dramatic life and ending with seeing her son become king must have been amazing. I find it lovely that she chose to be buried with her 1st husband. I think she loved deeply, first Thomas and then the Black Prince but I imagine she felt that Thomas was her ‘true love’.
I've always thought the same. They certainly went through a lot of travails to be together. There are a couple of fictionalized accounts of her life that are enjoyable.
What a wonderful account of a remarkable life! In a very meaningful way, the simple ability to exercise personal agency is a major triumph of women throughout history, and Joan is an exemplar of that spirit.
As a woman, I totally agree and she is a brilliant example. It's so rare to see a women of her rank marrying who she chose (although I'm still extremely uncomfortable with the fact that she was 12 at the time of marriage 1).
She is such romantic heroine! 😍😍💘💘💘💘💞💞💞💞💞 I cannot understand why they keep making 100 movies about Mary Stuart, but none does any about Joan 😤 She is such inspiring person - to marry for love not once, but twice in her times... and both times in secret! She was incredibly brave and confident woman. ❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥 And it seems she was also very kind person, as smallfolk loved her, and she was loving mother who was loved by her children too! 😍💗💗💗 Such an inspiring woman and true Queen-Who-Never-Was! 👸❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥 And her love life is incredibly fascinating - we often today pity girls from medieval times that they had to marry older men, but Joan could actually choose between man who was older some 12 years and boy in her age, and yet she chose this mature man. 🤯 And after her first husband passed away, she married Black Prince in less than half-year (I fully support her, I believe we do not choose love and to me there is no such thing like 'proper amount of time', as it would be different for everyone, but I know many people absolutely would judge her), which would suggest she found much more passion with Edward than with Thomas and she completely moved on with him, giving how quickly she remarried... And yet she decided she wanted to be buried next to Thomas, showing he was always her true love! She deserves to be known more I want movie or series about her...! 😭💔💕
In the medieval period the hers to the throne were expected to marry foreign princesses, that would bring political and diplomatic advantages to the crown.However the choice of prince was Joan which would not bring any advantage, nor would it increase the prestige of the English crown in any way. In addition, Joan was a widow with four children.However, Joan had royal blood and she was extremely wealthy, having inherited her father's estates. But Joan marital history could cause problems, particularly for the succession. A papal dispensation was required. Edward III after black-mailed, the pope agreed to the request.Her reputation was dubious when she married the price, but when she died, she was loved and respected by many outside her immediate family and friends. As a child she had shown independence and courage choosing to marry Thomas Holland. As an adult she showed that she was gentle, warm and loving, a natural ability to get on well with people.Thanks for your great video!
Considering how much GRRM takes from English history for his Song of Ice and Fire series, it’s amazing that he hasn’t leapt on Joan as inspiration for a much-married almost-queen who enchanted everyone she met, guided her son and was beloved by the common people! Fascinating life!
It's so fun to know the real story behind GRRM's books. Lancaster = Lannister York= Stark Cersei Lannister is based on Margaret of Anjou. The Red Wedding is based on both the Black Dinner on 1408 & the Massacre of Glencoe in 1692. Tyrion is loosely based on Richard 3rd. And there is so much history that GRRM uses! Joffrey is based on Commodus, Sansa is based on Queen Elizabeth 1. It's really fun to be a history "nerd"- which I'm only using as I've been called it many many times, and then read ASOIAF (or watch GOT) and see history played out. I'll stop nerding out now 🤣 I hope everyone is having a lovely day! Thank you, ~Tammy
Glad you spoke about the Hollands, like the Montagues (a.k.a. Montacutes) they were to play a huge part in Medieval England particularly on campaign. Her son, Richard was the last king where the court language was French. Apparently he invented the handkerchief.
I've never heard the handkerchief story. I'm away to Google that. :-) EDIT: Googling now done. I see it on Wikipedia, but obviously better research than that will be required. Thank you for sending me down an interesting rabbit-hole though. :-)
@@HistoryCalling Yes, probably hard to confirm or disprove too for that matter. Wouldn't put it past him! If he commissioned the Wilton Diptych with the Host of Heaven wearing his "White Hart" badge you certainly couldn't. Case closed(?) Perhaps not but cirmustancial evidence would point one in that direction. Maybe his hanky had a white hart on it too ;-) Please note he was 14 at the time of the Peasants Revolt and left the Tower when the rioters broke in. His young cousin hadn't, he was hiding in a cupboard. He too survived. He was to become Henry IV.
👏👏👏I knew next to nothing of the Fair Maid of Kent so this was an enjoyable journey, HC. Your videos always open the door to further investigation (that's what happened with Catherine Parr 😊). I appreciated the insight into the lengths you go to in your research; it's a reminder that there can be frustration along the way. Thanks for persevering. Until next week! 🙏🏼
@@TheTam0613 Yes she sure is. Richard 2 legalized her children to John of Gaunt but in return the give up any rights to the English Throne but Henry VII claimed his right to the throne through John Beaufort. It is interesting though Katheines Husband.could have been the father of John de Beaufort Katherines sister married Chaucer who wrote the first popular books English. Edward III was the first King whine English was his first Language. The Wars of the Roses probably did more to focus the crown on England rather than the Continent
What a Complicated History. Very interesting explanation of the "Order of the Garter'" which I have always wondered about. As The Majority of Americans descend from British Scottish or Irish ancestry,My love of all things history of these country's Aristocracy,and MONARCHY has filled many hours of learning of the facts and Folk tales handed down for 1000 years. Thank you for delagent and well delivered history of Joan of Kent. What a Fantastic Princess for her time of living. I'm surprised her name Joan is not used in subsequent naming of Royal Female ancestors. It is a lovely name I've always thought. Thank you again for these glimpses into ancient history of Britain/ European ' Monarchy. 👑❤🇬🇧💙🙏🇺🇸😊
Yes, the whole Order of the Garter tale was new to me as well and took some digging to try to unpick. I'm glad you enjoyed hearing about Joan. Yes, you would think actually that Joan/Joanna would be more popular after her time.
Wow! I just discovered that Joan of Kent and Thomas Holland are my 19th Grandparents from their son John's lineage. I really did not expect to find much when I searched their names. Thank you so much for this video. What a fascinating story.
What a fascinating story! ❤ I had heard of her and knew she was RII's mother, but not the rest of her history. Thank you for this detailed story of a clearly passionate woman who sought to direct her own life as she wanted it (including her burial!), though that was nearly impossible for women of the era. ❤❤❤
Yes, she is really interesting. I did the video because quite a few people requested it after the Black Prince videos and I'm glad they did. She was a great subject to research.
OMG wow! I was literally reading up on Joan & following the Holland line yesterday! I only looked at wikipedia & old books though, lol, so I was STOKED to wake up & find a video about her that I know is based on an academic assessment of the primary sources- thankyou so much!! Joan sounds even more amazing & interesting than I thought- another Mediaeval woman with agency, making her own decisions, & you can get some idea of her personality from them. I'm sad to hear she _was_ 12 when she married Thomas though, that's obviously not a situation to admire- I wish wikipedia was right when it said she might've been 14, which is ofc still way too young, but slightly less awful. At least she didn't have to go through pregnancy & childbirth til she was in her 20s though, so she was luckier than some other royal & noble girls. I got curious about the Hollands cos the surname turns up CONSTANTLY, & I knew some were Joan's descendants (ie Margaret Beaufort's grandmother), & given the amount of intermarriage, I was pretty sure the others were too. Of course they were, lol, & I was amused to find one fathered an illegitimate child, not with the usual "commoner", but with Constance of York- her father was Edmund, 1st Duke of York; Edward III's son & founder of the House of York. So, another royal/noble lady making her own choices- & not merely about relationships: she actually plotted against Henry IV with the Mortimers & Owain Glyndwr! ...Actually, it'd be AMAZING to have a video about Owain Glyndwr, the last WELSH Prince of Wales! His rebellion, with Henry Tudor's ancestors in his army, & stuff like the Tripartate Agreement with Edmund Mortimer & Henry Hotspur- it's kinda written off as "it failed" & I didn't realise for ages that it was actually such a huge deal & lasted so long.
Haha, great minds think alike. I'm glad the video was so well timed for you. Yes, the medieval period is a goldmine for interesting characters and events :-)
@@Shane-Flanagan Yeah, I imagine my recent ADHD diagnosis is extremely unsurprising 😂 If you know that "never bloody shuts up & goes off on endless random tangents" is textbook for women with ADHD, that is. But I will NOT go off on a tangent about that, lol- it's just funny cos writing an essay is just TOTALLY NORMAL to me when I'm fascinated by something, but it's clearly not cos 99% of people only write one sentence, & THAT'S what seems crazy to me- how do people do it?!?!
@@beth7935 Short, one word/sentence comments can be boring and generic. I love personalised, detailed comments full of passion and excitement for a topic or subject. Never stop being you Beth 🤗
One of Joan's Holland sons was rumored to be the lover of Edmund of York's wife and father of one of their sons who founded House of York. DNA of Richard III shows break in patrilineal line and this. might be iit.
She would have been the first English Queen of England since the Norman conquest, and it wasn’t until Elizabeth Woodville was crowned that England actually had an English queen! What a fascinating figure!
Hi HC, great to watch this for a second time tonight. What an amazing life Joan lead. As I said, I had no idea of what a fascinating life she had. Following on from my question after your Black Prince video, do you think he wanted to be buried there because:- A. The chapels the Pope instructed them to build were there? B. As Joan was from Kent he assumed that she would be buried there also. But as you’ve told us she asked to be buried with her first husband. Well, you could make a blockbuster film about her life. Thanks again HC. 👍🏻
I think probably he liked the idea of being buried in the chapels he'd built, though you make a fascinating point about Kent being where his wife was countess of as well. I wonder what he would have made of her opting to go back to Thomas in death?!
Thanks for this. I’ve been aware of lots of other epic women from these times, such as Alice Perrers, Isabella of France and more, but while I knew Joan existed, I only knew of her as the Black Prince’s consort. It was amazing to discover what a fantastic life she led, so thank you.
You're very welcome. I did the video because quite a few people requested it after the Black Prince videos and I'm glad they did. She was a great subject to research.
This was fascinating stuff HC. Your research is brilliant as usual and delivered in majestic style. As for Joan, there seems to be that thread of personal determination, similar to Margaret of Anjou. She really did live an extraordinary life, I wonder why she is not more well known as the first POW. We may have to rectify that. Perhaps the current holder of that title could help? I could see this as a tv drama no problem. Many thanks HC for another excellent video. 👏
What an interesting life to showcase! After watching this I immediately searched my podcasts I use to fall asleep. But I could only find bits and pieces since she was never a queen.
this has linked soo many things together in my head after watching!! this is why I love history, there’s so much hidden and so much to learn. like many other commenters i would love to see this as a historical drama🙌🏻 excellent work HC!!
So would I. She is buried in Leceister. Her sons John and Humphrey attended the parliament in Leceister and John knighted her grandson, young Henry VI, with the Order of the Garter there. The De Bohun "Swan" was a Lancastrian badge in the same way as the Beaufort "Portcullis".
Thank you so much! It's so rare to have history from the side of a woman and I love that you give them all a voice. You're incredible. I love being a subscriber! Thank you for everything!! ~Tammy 💛
Honestly I absolutely adore this channel and appreciate the amount of work and research you put into EVERY video. I know how frustratingly inconsistent it is to find reliable sources' even for the more known figures but every upload teaches me something new sp THANK YOU
Thank you so much. I'm so glad you enjoy the videos and it's always lovely when someone appreciates the work that goes into them, as not everyone does. Have a lovely weekend :-)
I am sure you are related to her, but not likely through her marriage to Edward, as their only surviving child was Richard II, who did not leave issue.
I became interested in her when I found she was my Great Great Grandmother (through her Holland marriage). This told me a lot more than I previously knew about her. It is pitiful her family forced her to marry. That is so ...intolerable. This video astonished me. Many of my GG-grandparents, GG Uncles and Aunts are in it as main players. I am gobsmacked that it is possible to know something of their lives so long ago--especially the women! Philippa of Hainault is my GGM, the She Wolf too. Crikey!!.These were women with more than usual power and agency for the time, even among the nobility. This was well done and I enjoyed watching.
What great research! And I thought I knew about this interesting woman. Their childhood familiarity and friendship explains a lot perhaps as to their (now seemingly fitting) marriage later. My. Goodness. What an interesting player, Joan of Kent. Thank you.
Firstly, thank you for your very interesting presentation about a woman who fought against the limitations her family placed on her It looks like she had inherited her father's rebellious spirit. Regarding the garter story: some years ago I read an historical novel about Edward III called 'The King Is A Witch'. This enumerated how Edward, Prince of Wales, had found support for his rebellion against his mother, known as Isabella the she-wolf of France and her lover l, Mortimer, amongst nobles who practiced witchcraft. His coup was successful and one of these ladies became his long term mistress. I have forgotten her name. It was whilst dancing with this lady that her snake-skin garter fell to the floor. The king snatched it up swiftly and to protect her against charges of witchcraft, since snake skins were connected to the practice of black magic, proclaimed "Honi soir qui mal y pense" which properly translated means "Shame on him/them who see/s evil t/here!" The "here or there" words are important because they fix this statement to a particular event, namely, the garter dropping dance with his mistress. To protect her even further and to make this disreputable event more respectable he put both beyond the reproach of dangerous scandal by using them as founding elements of his new order of chivalry, the Order of the Garter. If memory serves, this book included two other facts supporting the claim the the king was witch. Firstly, he had stone imported from Caen to build his round tower at Windsor, because these 'blue' stones were credited with magical properties. In the upper chamber of this tower, his royal coven met. He also continued the pagan/witch cult principle of human sacrifice every seven years, with sacrificial victims drawn from his own family and nearest and dearest. Child mortality was so common place in the 14th century, that the death of a young child would never be suspected as murder. This mistress who lost her snake skin garter whilst dancing with the king, was also brutally murdered some years later, whilst staying at her manor. She also served as the human sacrifice in the seven year cycle. England's success during The Hundred Years War against the richer and mightier France begs questions for some, as to how this was maintained and achieved. True, the large and fertile duchies of Acquitaine and Normandy were under English control and the dukes of Burgundy preferred to clip their French cousins' wings by assisting the English. But in terms of manpower alone, France could still field much larger armies than England. Even if English fighting prowess and technical skills were enhanced by the Welsh long bow men which balanced such differences it still begs the question from which source did this hubris stem? Yes, our royal family was Norman French and under Henry II the Anglo/Norman empire stretched from the Scottish to the Spanish borders. His soldiers were descended from warlike beserker Vikings and Saxons, so more grit switched to cavalry, which made the Norman knights so effective. Those character traits are passed down the centuries. Nonetheless, it's very easy to see room for a diabolical pact in England's success in The Hundred Years War. Though their success eventually failed in the 15th century, after the war had been continuing on and off for 127 years. It failed largely due to fraudulent embezzlement of war funds, general mismanagement and offence given to our important ally, the duke of Burgundy by duke Humphrey, younger brother of king Henry V, who was left in full control of the child king Henry IV after his older brother, John, duke of Bedford had died. Their wives, even former wife, of both dukes, the duchess of Gloucester and Jacinta Lusignan, duchess of Bedford and mother of Elizabeth Woodville, were both accused of witchcraft. It can be said that both the trials were politically motivated to get at their powerful husbands for other charges for which they had insufficient proof. The duchess of Gloucester was found guilty, not only of witchcraft but of trying to use these black arts to foretell the date of death of king Henry VI. So treason as well as witchcraft. She was forcibly divorced from Duke Humphrey and imprisoned. Given the gravity of her crimes her sentence was lenient. A couple of years later duke Humphrey was charged with and executed for treason. Jacinta Lusignap Butn, with her descent from Melusine, the water spirit and her more powerful connections to king Edward IV, as his mother-in-law, escaped and was found innocent of witchcraft. That was a miracle in itself. She died the following winter of a cough. My point in extending the story into the 15th century is to show that senior or powerful members of the royal family continued the tradition of links to black magic and witchcraft. Coincidence, or power play you might say but perhaps they were guilty as charged.
Have you seen the Series Maximillian (German with English subtitles)? Your piece on Edward IV was contempary, his sister Margaret is in it. When he and his brothers were on their uppers they would retreat to Flanders which had Yorkist sympathies at that time whereas France had Lancastrian sympathies. Margaret's stepdaughter Mary of Burgundy had a tragically short life.
I haven't unfortunately. It sounds very interesting though. Mary of Burgundy - is she the one who fell off her horse, or am I thinking of someone else?
@@HistoryCalling Yes, she was fond of hunting. Her father, Charles the Bold was probably the richest Prince in Europe. Sadly he left his daughter and his last wife Margaret. Margaret was loaded and bankrolled two rebellions Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck, fell out with the big cities of Ghent and Bruges. I think it will be a good idea if you manage to watch it, if you can speak German, it's surreal seeing Margaret speak German, or are not bothered reading the subtitles. Being German the production values are good.
I knew almost nothing about her either, but several people mentioned her, especially after my videos on the Black Prince, so I thought I'd give her a go.
11:36 Interesting. I was under the impression it was Catherine de Grandison, the mother of Joan's husband, Montagu. Jean Froissart, however, only mentions the 'Countess of Salisbury', which Catherine de Grandison would no longer have been in 1348, as although she was still living in 1348, her husband died in 1344, relinquishing his title to their son, William, Joan's husband. Crikey! It all makes sense when you delve a little deeper. lol
Whew! You picked a complicated one this week! I was give out after all that went on with the fair maid of Kent. That took you quite a bit of time. So interesting and thank you for always peaking my interest in these figures from the past. Have a great week!
It is always a bit thrilling to see my Plantaganet ancestors making history, but it also fills me with joy that a bunch of dutch merchants and poor scots farmers would come into the family tree, it really proves that wealth and status never lasts and most of us are just a mix of royal and peasant, and our health has improved because of it! Amazing that the descendants of the serfs would be part of this line too!
I've been reading about your ancestors and their connection to vampirism. They were referred to as the "bloodline of the devil", the sea goat. Definitely some.. interesting reading.
Fascinating figure and amazing life she led! Truly an anomaly for the times in determining her own destiny, for the most part. Thank you for a well-told history of her life. Kind Regards, Cherie
Thank you for all your content!! I feel very lucky to be able to hear from you, as you are a true scholar! I appreciate your time and effort that you pour into each video. Thanks again, ~Tammy 💛
It's a bit of an icky situation, isn't it, what with her being 12. I try to remember that they had completely different attitudes to age then and to when children were adults, but it still grosses me out. Regarding him fighting for her, I hope he loved her, but I'm sure he was thinking about some financial and social gains too. She was quite the catch. I wouldn't rule out genuine religious conviction too. I think he really believed they were married in the eyes of God and she very possibly did too.
People aged faster then as life was short and always iffy as any bad infection or virus could carry you off. She must have loved him to want to go back to him and want to buried next to him. She also produced a lot of living kids in a time when many died young. 🎉
It is so interesting to learn about history from other countries! As a U.S. Citizen, I only learned about our history. It fascinates me to no end to learn about times before we were a country. We are so young compared to many other places. Thank you for all your hard work and effort!
You're young (excluding Native American history) but you've packed a lot in in that time. I really enjoy a lot of American history and wish my viewers were more interested when I dip my toe into it.
@@HistoryCalling Thank you for remembering us! As a Native American, Apache/Yaqui, comments like that can be really annoying. If I let it, which I try not to. We haven't gone anywhere, we're still here, brooding.
Thanks for such great research. Years ago, I read a history book which told the story of Joan and the garter as fact. You have completely changed my view of her.
I have always been interested in the lives of mediaeval royal women so it was a no brainer for me to listen to the life and times of Joan of Kent thankyou
thank you, i've been waiting for this one. my line comes from joan and thomas and on through john and queen joan of scotland. i have my family tree down but don't know much about any of them. on the whole, the plantagenets seemed like scallywags.
A short life by today’s standards but an eventful one! She was clearly always in love with her first husband Thomas Holland she sounds like she was a remarkable woman.
Yes, that's my impression too, though you would think she loved Prince Edward as she was financially independent and hopefully didn't have to marry him if she didn't want to. Maybe he was difficult to say no to though.
@HistoryCalling I love your channel, I just watched your war of the Roses series. But I love all your videos I don't have a steady income for patreon , so I will just do it like this. I was wondering, though, if you could do a series on the last real princes of Wales. Llywelyn Fawr (Llywelyn the Great), and his son Gruffudd ap Llywelyn. I don't know if you're familiar with the writings of Sharon Kay Penman. She wrote a book about them (Here be Dragons). Llywelyn Fawr (Llywelyn the Great) was married through a treaty with an illegitimate daughter of King John. Her name was Joan. Sharon Kay Penman also wrote a more accurate book about Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville. Called the Sunne in Splendor. I prefer her writing because there is less fantasy and more truth. Than Phillipha Gregory's books, which I find do a great disservice to accurate history.
Thanks Sandra. Don't worry at all about Patreon. There's no pressure, nor do you need to donate Superthanks of course. I've never considered the Welsh Princes of Wales. Perhaps I'll try one of them at some point for a video and see how it's received. Thanks for the idea :-)
Happy Friday. I read an article online that a portrait of Katherine Parr was sold at auction for a couple of million dollars. It was by the artist Master John. Are you familiar with that portrait of Katherine and that artist. Have a great weekend
She was really quite the looker (despite Anne of Cleves' grumblings about her). No wonder she got 4 husbands in an era when looks were so prized. Of course she had the added bonus of being very well educated and able to hold up her end of a conversation too so she was really the whole package. Can't believe Henry nearly killed her and Thomas cheated on her!
@@HistoryCalling I think Anne Boleyn and Katherine Parr were the two most beautiful wives of Henry. I believe Katherine was the most intelligent even though she married Thomas Seymour.
Thanks for a great video. This is better than a novel. What a clever woman she must have been, she got 3 strong men plainly crazy for her and two great seasoned soldiers to fight for her against anything and everything. That woman was definitely smart and strong. Her seductive and mental tactfulness must have been amazing too. Holland made himself a servant for her, fought nobles during time of plague, and the black prince risked everything too, even making his father get papal dispensation after the fact and basically doing everything against the tradition for her. Lol. 😅what a true representation of a woman’s superior brain in a time where their only chess game was through marriages. Wow
We know so little about women of that age or, to be fair, much any women before XIX century. Even about royal women, we mostly know who their parents were, to whom they were married and how many children they did give birth to. It's like most of them didn't have personalities, even though they were living, breathing human beings. Joan was roal, but not a queen and ahe had a lufe before becoming a princess of Wales, so it's even more interesting to hear her story. I wish we had more information on het and many other women of that age. Thank you so much for this video!
Well said. I wish we could get a better grasp on her personality too and on the personalities of so many other famous women from history. It's endlessly frustrating having to view them through the eyes of the men around them so much of the time. Still, I suppose the royal ladies are remembered much better than 99.99% of the rest of the female population, so I guess they're the lucky ones.
After your last video, I clicked on A video about Margaret Tudor (mother of Henry VII) and I got to say(...) It's funny how Richard III usuped the throne but it's his brother and not his line that the current king is part of.
You're welcome. I knew next to nothing about her either, but I got quite a few requests for a video on her after my videos on the Black Prince, so I thought I'd give her a go and she was well worth the effort.
Edward was the extravagant member of the couple. Joan and Thomas had lived a very modest life. After Joans brother died she became the wealthiest woman in England in her own right. A combined inheritance from her Father Edmund son of Edward 1 and her Mothers family the Wakes. But her new wealth was fraught with trouble after the Black Plague decimated much of the population. Many workers and farmers on her multiple estates were dead and it took years to rebuild. Her mother spent her life managing the vast and disparate estate.
Fascinating. Though the plot is primarily fictional, it may interest history buffs to check out the 1950s film "The Black Prince," starring Errol Flynn, in which Joan and her children are besieged by the French during Prince Edward's tenure in Aquitaine.
About the garter story, I also heard that the straps that held on the parts of armor to the body or together were also called garters. Maybe a reference to the garters that held up stockings (men also wore them when stockings were shorter not full length).
Was really enjoying this and it's academic approach to the biography of an important female presence in our History- then there was a prolonged sequence of a young girl pretending to look pained rubbing her head and sliding up and down a wall (?)
Are you ever considering of making videos on old Hollywood icons like Audrey Hepburn etc it would be cool and could be like a playlist in the future for people to see old Hollywood icons I mean could you ask Permission from the photos so you don’t get copyright thanks
During extentions to Stamford hospital in the victorian period they found two graves said to be of Joan and first husband which were reburied in the grounds .
This story reminds me of "For My Lady's Heart" by Laura Kinsale. I have often wondered if there was a real life basis for the tale, and I think I have my answer. The story is set in the later years of Edward III's reign and features appearances from John of Gaunt, The Black Prince and Edward III himself, among other historical characters. In the story, the heroine marries the hero in secret, though she is promised to another, a powerful foreign prince. Later she recants and Hero sues in Canonical court to prevent the new marriage. It is then a "He said, she said" problem which ecclesiastical authorities judge should be put to a "trial by arms." It is a very entertaining novel, which fueled a curiosity in me about that period, whcih has lasted decades.
Yeah, Edward II's death was a little too conveniently timed not to be sus. So, Joan's first husband became steward in her second husband's household...while she was married to her second husband. Hmmmmmmm...Awkward. Sounds almost like you could make a sitcom out of that...Or a romantic drama...Or a thriller where everyone starts dying in terrible ways, and everyone suspects the steward. Only to have it revealed at the end of the movie that it was Jo-Jo killing everyone! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! Damn, I need to start writing that.
@@HistoryCalling I'm gonna do some more research and work something up. I get all kinds of ideas for historical fiction/drama/romance/horror from your videos.
Katherine swineford’s book is a amazing romantic novel and makes for a very realistic romance given hr real life story with the brother of the black prince, gaunt. So, a fictional novel of the likes of Philippa Gregory for this woman should be awesome.
Hi history calling I am curious are you thinking of ever making a video on the tudors and their religion I mean Henry the 8 religion and his six wives and three children a special their wives because it is kind of confusing thanks
Not a bad idea. It's not on the cards at the moment, but there is one coming out in a few weeks which you've asked me for quite a few times before, so I hope that one will make you happy :-) Have a great weekend :-)
Joan and Prince Edward were raised together. Edward had been in love with her his whole life. He declared before the entire family at age 10 that he would one day marry her and only her. That sparked the necessity to get her married off to Montague. Joan lived Thomas and he had only been dead a few weeks when Edward showed up to press his case. Joan really had no choice when faced with the strong willed prince. It was secret because the King and Queen disapproved. They needed a political match for their oldest son. There is a lot more to the story regarding the connection between Joan and King Edward.
History tends to forget about the strong women behind the men. When we find out about these women I find it fascinating 😊. Thanks for your research and videos
Ooh a very interesting person!! (I must say she choosing to be buried with one of her previous husbands when the Black Prince expected her to be buried with him was both bad and funny af😭) Have a nice Friday all :)
@@HistoryCalling It definitely implies a close relationship, and perhaps prior discussion between the two. Joan seems to have been adept at exercising her influence on those close to her.
It's important to remember that age is very much dependent on the times. Teenagers were mostly adults, the average person didnt live incredibly long, and we should not apply the 20th or 21st century norms to the 1300s. I love that she had a true romance and fell madly in love.
I can't imagine that any woman that lived through what Joan had.. could not have had less than an agreeable personality and clearly was considered beautiful, but being wealthy would be helpful. So the stories of her personality and beauty must have merit. Her secret marriages are the most peculiar and interesting aspect of her life. That shows Men must have found he captivating and one would think women would be envious of her but I've never read of any trashing her . Interesting that she wished to be buried with her first Husband ( Love ? ) Unlike Tess of the D'uvervilles' her beauty did not destroy her. Thanks.. I didn't know of all of her husbands.
My absolute favorite detail in this is that she wanted to be buried next to her first husband. It seems to tell us a few things. She loved her first husband. She loved her second husband and wasn't with him for status.
@@HistoryCalling Exactly! Or at the very least, Richard II respected his mom's feelings, which adds a layer to the image of him as an emotionally unbalanced tyrant. I mean, Joan seems strong enough to have turned down The Black Prince if she had wanted to, so maybe it was a situation of the first husband was the passion. third husband was the friend.
When I was at university the lecturer who covered the Peasant's Revolt told us with great joy that in the early 1990s he got his Poll Tax bill in from Wat Tyler House.
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Yeah, she was what we used to call a "Top Shelf Honey". She did her thang, and took zero guff from anybody. Probably told all those dirty revolting peasants (see what I did there?) they better take a step back before she lost her patience with them. 😂
Truly fascinating woman, whom I’d never heard of!
Any chance of a video on Eleanor of Aquitaine soon? Please? 😬❤
Never say never. I do own a biography of her (though I haven't read it in about 20 years).
Excellent Peasants' Revolt pun :-)
@@HistoryCalling Thank you, you've been a great audience, I'll be here all week! 😂🤪
It’s always so fascinating to me to learn about royalty from the womens’ side of it, especially during the medieval period
Same here :-) I knew almost nothing about Joan until I did this video, but she had quite a life.
It's a perspective we rarely see, which makes it so much more interesting. I really enjoy the Vulgar History podcast for historical tales of a variety of women.
If you want an unusual woman who was fascinating and connected to the War of the Roses. Look up Jacquetta of Luxembourg.
@@flipw3605 I think she already did a biography about her. And it was very interesting. 😊
I’ll have to check that out ~ Thanks!
Joan was quite a woman! The main point that I've learned from your series on the high noble women of the medieval period is that, aside from that fact that most of them were married off to suit their families at very early ages, they actually had a lot more agency than is commonly thought.
Yes, there are definitely some great examples of very tough and canny women. Lady Margaret Beaufort and Margaret of Anjou spring to mind as well. It's a relief to know they weren't all just baby machines and doormats.
A lot of women did. It seems very modern assumption that there wasn't.
Or, they found (sometimes scandalous) ways to *take* agency, even if their society, culture and church all did their best to prevent it.❤
Women of high Birth usually did not inherit money or land so they were married off in the hopes that the husband would provide her a decent life.
I agree wholeheartedly
In this age of misinformation and false history it is so refreshing to hear primary sources being cited. I can just listen, knowing this information has been vetted by a reputable source! That’s such an accomplishment. Thank you for your hard work!!
Thanks Heather. Yes, I'm a stickler for primary sources, all the way. :-)
I always get a kick out of medieval royal history, because you have things like "the Princess of Wales was secretly married and then lived as a bigamist for years even before she married the Prince". Can you imagine that happening today? The scandals that make the press lose their minds today are hilariously simple by comparison. 😂😂
I'm now just imagining if it turned out Catherine had been a secret bigamist before she married William. It would certainly distract the media from Harry and Meghan, I'll say that much. 😂 Of course if it threw the legitimacy of the Wales's children into question, then we could be looking at King Henry IX.
@@HistoryCalling Heavens no! There's been too many already. At least we're only on 4 Williams. Although...we are up to 6 Georges. 😆
Or the now deceased Princess of Wales having an affair with a ginger-haired army officer while still married to the present King and her ginger-haired second son being the result of that affair?
@@robertd.carver6240
Didn’t DNA settle that, already??? Look to the Spencer side of the family ~~~
@@HistoryCalling
Heaven forbid!
What a fascinating story! I'm surprised it hasn't been utilized by historical novelists (at least as far as I know). All those marriages! And it seems she loved her first the best. I wonder what her second, enforced marriage, was really like. Thank you so much for a lovely episode. In response to your customary signoff, I would say, "Keep Teaching!"
Yes, her story is just ripe for a historical novel. I'm surprised it's not better known about too. I'd love to have a better insight into that second marriage as well. She certainly didn't flinch when it came to dumping him, that's for sure.
I'm fairly certain GRR Martin based a few characters from Song of Ice and Fire on Joan.. Or certainly some situations they found themselves in mirror her life
Secret marriages ( Jeyne Pool, Lyanna Stark, )
Being desired by the King/Prince= Joanna Lannister
Scandal at a tournament: Lyanna
@@anaihilator You couldn't prove it by me. I only watched the first episode of GOT. However, I did envision a whole television miniseries, beginning with the downfall of the Duke of Kent and carrying on through the many episodes of Joan's life. So many juicy roles would be possible!
My fave series of historical novels has a character very closely based on Joan! It's Susan Howatch's trilogy of Penmarric, Cashelmara & The Wheel of Fortune. It's not a straight re-telling- the royal family is changed into a noble family of a more recent era, one for each book, & they go from "Matilda & Stephen" to "Henry V". So obviously it's VERY fictional, but the relationships of the characters are bang-on, & it's ended up helping me learn the actual history.
There actually is a novel! A Triple Knot by Emma Campion. I read it a couple of years ago, but I remember really enjoying it.
Wow. I knew so little about her before this video. She was very remarkable! What a dramatic life and ending with seeing her son become king must have been amazing. I find it lovely that she chose to be buried with her 1st husband. I think she loved deeply, first Thomas and then the Black Prince but I imagine she felt that Thomas was her ‘true love’.
Yes, that was a curious decision. I wish we knew more about it. I hope too that love was the motive.
I've always thought the same. They certainly went through a lot of travails to be together. There are a couple of fictionalized accounts of her life that are enjoyable.
What a wonderful account of a remarkable life! In a very meaningful way, the simple ability to exercise personal agency is a major triumph of women throughout history, and Joan is an exemplar of that spirit.
As a woman, I totally agree and she is a brilliant example. It's so rare to see a women of her rank marrying who she chose (although I'm still extremely uncomfortable with the fact that she was 12 at the time of marriage 1).
She is such romantic heroine! 😍😍💘💘💘💘💞💞💞💞💞 I cannot understand why they keep making 100 movies about Mary Stuart, but none does any about Joan 😤 She is such inspiring person - to marry for love not once, but twice in her times... and both times in secret! She was incredibly brave and confident woman. ❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥 And it seems she was also very kind person, as smallfolk loved her, and she was loving mother who was loved by her children too! 😍💗💗💗 Such an inspiring woman and true Queen-Who-Never-Was! 👸❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥 And her love life is incredibly fascinating - we often today pity girls from medieval times that they had to marry older men, but Joan could actually choose between man who was older some 12 years and boy in her age, and yet she chose this mature man. 🤯 And after her first husband passed away, she married Black Prince in less than half-year (I fully support her, I believe we do not choose love and to me there is no such thing like 'proper amount of time', as it would be different for everyone, but I know many people absolutely would judge her), which would suggest she found much more passion with Edward than with Thomas and she completely moved on with him, giving how quickly she remarried... And yet she decided she wanted to be buried next to Thomas, showing he was always her true love! She deserves to be known more I want movie or series about her...! 😭💔💕
In the medieval period the hers to the throne were expected to marry foreign princesses, that would bring political and diplomatic advantages to the crown.However the choice of prince was Joan which would not bring any advantage, nor would it increase the prestige of the English crown in any way. In addition, Joan was a widow with four children.However, Joan had royal blood and she was extremely wealthy, having inherited her father's estates. But Joan marital history could cause problems, particularly for the succession. A papal dispensation was required. Edward III after black-mailed, the pope agreed to the request.Her reputation was dubious when she married the price, but when she died, she was loved and respected by many outside her immediate family and friends. As a child she had shown independence and courage choosing to marry Thomas Holland. As an adult she showed that she was gentle, warm and loving, a natural ability to get on well with people.Thanks for your great video!
And thank you for watching and commenting :-)
Considering how much GRRM takes from English history for his Song of Ice and Fire series, it’s amazing that he hasn’t leapt on Joan as inspiration for a much-married almost-queen who enchanted everyone she met, guided her son and was beloved by the common people! Fascinating life!
Just give him time I think, although I suppose we could argue Margaery Tyrell (3 husbands too) has shades of Joan :-)
@@HistoryCalling Very true! Great video!
It's so fun to know the real story behind GRRM's books.
Lancaster = Lannister
York= Stark
Cersei Lannister is based on Margaret of Anjou.
The Red Wedding is based on both the Black Dinner on 1408 & the Massacre of Glencoe in 1692.
Tyrion is loosely based on Richard 3rd. And there is so much history that GRRM uses! Joffrey is based on Commodus, Sansa is based on Queen Elizabeth 1.
It's really fun to be a history "nerd"- which I'm only using as I've been called it many many times, and then read ASOIAF (or watch GOT) and see history played out.
I'll stop nerding out now 🤣
I hope everyone is having a lovely day!
Thank you,
~Tammy
@TheTam0613 Plus, The Dance of Dragons, Which HBO is currently adapting in House of the Dragon, is basically the English Anarchy but with dragons.
Glad you spoke about the Hollands, like the Montagues (a.k.a. Montacutes) they were to play a huge part in Medieval England particularly on campaign.
Her son, Richard was the last king where the court language was French. Apparently he invented the handkerchief.
I've never heard the handkerchief story. I'm away to Google that. :-)
EDIT: Googling now done. I see it on Wikipedia, but obviously better research than that will be required. Thank you for sending me down an interesting rabbit-hole though. :-)
@@HistoryCalling Yes, probably hard to confirm or disprove too for that matter. Wouldn't put it past him! If he commissioned the Wilton Diptych with the Host of Heaven wearing his "White Hart" badge you certainly couldn't. Case closed(?) Perhaps not but cirmustancial evidence would point one in that direction. Maybe his hanky had a white hart on it too ;-)
Please note he was 14 at the time of the Peasants Revolt and left the Tower when the rioters broke in. His young cousin hadn't, he was hiding in a cupboard. He too survived. He was to become Henry IV.
👏👏👏I knew next to nothing of the Fair Maid of Kent so this was an enjoyable journey, HC. Your videos always open the door to further investigation (that's what happened with Catherine Parr 😊). I appreciated the insight into the lengths you go to in your research; it's a reminder that there can be frustration along the way. Thanks for persevering. Until next week! 🙏🏼
Same here, but I had a fun time learning about her. I have another medieval Princess for you next week too, but I shan't say more than that :-)
@@HistoryCalling Woo hoo! Can't wait!
@@stephencarrillo5905 ditto! 😁
@@stephencarrillo5905 ditto! 🤩
This video made me think about one of her contemporaries, Catherine Swynford - it would be interesting to meet her in a video!
She's on my list :-)
A lot of trouble that one started.
@@HistoryCallingThis is exciting to hear!! Katherine Swynford is a fascinating woman.
@@TheTam0613 Yes she sure is. Richard 2 legalized her children to John of Gaunt but in return the give up any rights to the English Throne but Henry VII claimed his right to the throne through John Beaufort. It is interesting though Katheines Husband.could have been the father of John de Beaufort Katherines sister married Chaucer who wrote the first popular books English. Edward III was the first King whine English was his first Language. The Wars of the Roses probably did more to focus the crown on England rather than the Continent
And Bess of Hardwick.
What a Complicated History. Very interesting explanation of the "Order of the Garter'" which I have always wondered about.
As The Majority of Americans descend from British Scottish or Irish ancestry,My love of all things history of these country's Aristocracy,and MONARCHY has filled many hours of learning of the facts and Folk tales handed down for 1000 years.
Thank you for delagent and well delivered history of Joan of Kent. What a Fantastic Princess for her time of living.
I'm surprised her name Joan is not used in subsequent naming of Royal Female ancestors. It is a lovely name I've always thought.
Thank you again for these glimpses into ancient history of Britain/ European ' Monarchy. 👑❤🇬🇧💙🙏🇺🇸😊
Yes, the whole Order of the Garter tale was new to me as well and took some digging to try to unpick. I'm glad you enjoyed hearing about Joan. Yes, you would think actually that Joan/Joanna would be more popular after her time.
Wow! I just discovered that Joan of Kent and Thomas Holland are my 19th Grandparents from their son John's lineage. I really did not expect to find much when I searched their names. Thank you so much for this video. What a fascinating story.
What a fascinating story! ❤ I had heard of her and knew she was RII's mother, but not the rest of her history. Thank you for this detailed story of a clearly passionate woman who sought to direct her own life as she wanted it (including her burial!), though that was nearly impossible for women of the era. ❤❤❤
Yes, she is really interesting. I did the video because quite a few people requested it after the Black Prince videos and I'm glad they did. She was a great subject to research.
@@HistoryCalling oohhh. I missed the Black Prince videos. (Hurries off to search...)
OMG wow! I was literally reading up on Joan & following the Holland line yesterday! I only looked at wikipedia & old books though, lol, so I was STOKED to wake up & find a video about her that I know is based on an academic assessment of the primary sources- thankyou so much!! Joan sounds even more amazing & interesting than I thought- another Mediaeval woman with agency, making her own decisions, & you can get some idea of her personality from them.
I'm sad to hear she _was_ 12 when she married Thomas though, that's obviously not a situation to admire- I wish wikipedia was right when it said she might've been 14, which is ofc still way too young, but slightly less awful. At least she didn't have to go through pregnancy & childbirth til she was in her 20s though, so she was luckier than some other royal & noble girls.
I got curious about the Hollands cos the surname turns up CONSTANTLY, & I knew some were Joan's descendants (ie Margaret Beaufort's grandmother), & given the amount of intermarriage, I was pretty sure the others were too. Of course they were, lol, & I was amused to find one fathered an illegitimate child, not with the usual "commoner", but with Constance of York- her father was Edmund, 1st Duke of York; Edward III's son & founder of the House of York. So, another royal/noble lady making her own choices- & not merely about relationships: she actually plotted against Henry IV with the Mortimers & Owain Glyndwr!
...Actually, it'd be AMAZING to have a video about Owain Glyndwr, the last WELSH Prince of Wales! His rebellion, with Henry Tudor's ancestors in his army, & stuff like the Tripartate Agreement with Edmund Mortimer & Henry Hotspur- it's kinda written off as "it failed" & I didn't realise for ages that it was actually such a huge deal & lasted so long.
Haha, great minds think alike. I'm glad the video was so well timed for you. Yes, the medieval period is a goldmine for interesting characters and events :-)
Lol, your comments are always like no other Beth! Long winded, crazy in a good way, full of enthusiasm and excitement for history 😍
@@Shane-Flanagan Yeah, I imagine my recent ADHD diagnosis is extremely unsurprising 😂 If you know that "never bloody shuts up & goes off on endless random tangents" is textbook for women with ADHD, that is. But I will NOT go off on a tangent about that, lol- it's just funny cos writing an essay is just TOTALLY NORMAL to me when I'm fascinated by something, but it's clearly not cos 99% of people only write one sentence, & THAT'S what seems crazy to me- how do people do it?!?!
@@beth7935 Short, one word/sentence comments can be boring and generic.
I love personalised, detailed comments full of passion and excitement for a topic or subject.
Never stop being you Beth 🤗
One of Joan's Holland sons was rumored to be the lover of Edmund of York's wife and father of one of their sons who founded House of York. DNA of Richard III shows break in patrilineal line and this. might be iit.
I LOVEEEE that you always mention your sources and if they’re trustworthy or not.
She would have been the first English Queen of England since the Norman conquest, and it wasn’t until Elizabeth Woodville was crowned that England actually had an English queen! What a fascinating figure!
Hi HC, great to watch this for a second time tonight. What an amazing life Joan lead. As I said, I had no idea of what a fascinating life she had.
Following on from my question after your Black Prince video, do you think he wanted to be buried there because:-
A. The chapels the Pope instructed them to build were there?
B. As Joan was from Kent he assumed that she would be buried there also. But as you’ve told us she asked to be buried with her first husband.
Well, you could make a blockbuster film about her life.
Thanks again HC. 👍🏻
I think probably he liked the idea of being buried in the chapels he'd built, though you make a fascinating point about Kent being where his wife was countess of as well. I wonder what he would have made of her opting to go back to Thomas in death?!
Thanks for this. I’ve been aware of lots of other epic women from these times, such as Alice Perrers, Isabella of France and more, but while I knew Joan existed, I only knew of her as the Black Prince’s consort.
It was amazing to discover what a fantastic life she led, so thank you.
You're very welcome. I did the video because quite a few people requested it after the Black Prince videos and I'm glad they did. She was a great subject to research.
This was fascinating stuff HC. Your research is brilliant as usual and delivered in majestic style. As for Joan, there seems to be that thread of personal determination, similar to Margaret of Anjou. She really did live an extraordinary life, I wonder why she is not more well known as the first POW. We may have to rectify that. Perhaps the current holder of that title could help? I could see this as a tv drama no problem. Many thanks HC for another excellent video. 👏
Thanks Elisabeth. Yes, a TV drama about Joan would be very welcome here too. :-)
What an interesting life to showcase! After watching this I immediately searched my podcasts I use to fall asleep. But I could only find bits and pieces since she was never a queen.
this has linked soo many things together in my head after watching!! this is why I love history, there’s so much hidden and so much to learn. like many other commenters i would love to see this as a historical drama🙌🏻 excellent work HC!!
Yes, Netflix or Prime should get on this for sure :-)
@@HistoryCalling absolutely!! Now whom to cast? 🤔
wonderful! i would love to see one on Mary de Bohun Countess of Derby, first wife of Henry IV
So would I. She is buried in Leceister. Her sons John and Humphrey attended the parliament in Leceister and John knighted her grandson, young Henry VI, with the Order of the Garter there.
The De Bohun "Swan" was a Lancastrian badge in the same way as the Beaufort "Portcullis".
If this one does well and there's enough primary source info. to look into Mary's life, I might just do that.
OMG, I was literally thinking yesterday I need to learn about her! Seconded!
@@beth7935 she is a interesting study in how being A WEALTHY WELL CONNECTED NOBLEWOMAN wasn't much better than being a peasant woman
Thank you so much! It's so rare to have history from the side of a woman and I love that you give them all a voice. You're incredible. I love being a subscriber!
Thank you for everything!!
~Tammy 💛
Honestly I absolutely adore this channel and appreciate the amount of work and research you put into EVERY video. I know how frustratingly inconsistent it is to find reliable sources' even for the more known figures but every upload teaches me something new sp THANK YOU
Thank you so much. I'm so glad you enjoy the videos and it's always lovely when someone appreciates the work that goes into them, as not everyone does. Have a lovely weekend :-)
As the wife of Edward the Black Prince she was my 19x great grandmother, so the history is truly fascinating.
Ah, someone else here in the comments said the same thing. You could track down one of your distant cousins :-)
I am sure you are related to her, but not likely through her marriage to Edward, as their only surviving child was Richard II, who did not leave issue.
I really appreciate your hard work and stamina producing so many well researched and produced videos. Kudos to you and long may you continue
Thanks Caroline. The biography videos are some of the longest and most arduous to do, so it's lovely to know that people are appreciating them.
I became interested in her when I found she was my Great Great Grandmother (through her Holland marriage). This told me a lot more than I previously knew about her. It is pitiful her family forced her to marry. That is so ...intolerable. This video astonished me. Many of my GG-grandparents, GG Uncles and Aunts are in it as main players. I am gobsmacked that it is possible to know something of their lives so long ago--especially the women! Philippa of Hainault is my GGM, the She Wolf too. Crikey!!.These were women with more than usual power and agency for the time, even among the nobility. This was well done and I enjoyed watching.
Glad you enjoyed it. Some of your very distant cousins are here in the comments too, if you want to track them down.
@@HistoryCalling Cool!
What great research! And I thought I knew about this interesting woman. Their childhood familiarity and friendship explains a lot perhaps as to their (now seemingly fitting) marriage later. My. Goodness. What an interesting player, Joan of Kent. Thank you.
Firstly, thank you for your very interesting presentation about a woman who fought against the limitations her family placed on her
It looks like she had inherited her father's rebellious spirit.
Regarding the garter story: some years ago I read an historical novel about Edward III called 'The King Is A Witch'. This enumerated how Edward, Prince of Wales, had found support for his rebellion against his mother, known as Isabella the she-wolf of France and her lover l, Mortimer, amongst nobles who practiced witchcraft. His coup was successful and one of these ladies became his long term mistress. I have forgotten her name. It was whilst dancing with this lady that her snake-skin garter fell to the floor. The king snatched it up swiftly and to protect her against charges of witchcraft, since snake skins were connected to the practice of black magic, proclaimed "Honi soir qui mal y pense" which properly translated means "Shame on him/them who see/s evil t/here!" The "here or there" words are important because they fix this statement to a particular event, namely, the garter dropping dance with his mistress. To protect her even further and to make this disreputable event more respectable he put both beyond the reproach of dangerous scandal by using them as founding elements of his new order of chivalry, the Order of the Garter.
If memory serves, this book included two other facts supporting the claim the the king was witch. Firstly, he had stone imported from Caen to build his round tower at Windsor, because these 'blue' stones were credited with magical properties. In the upper chamber of this tower, his royal coven met.
He also continued the pagan/witch cult principle of human sacrifice every seven years, with sacrificial victims drawn from his own family and nearest and dearest. Child mortality was so common place in the 14th century, that the death of a young child would never be suspected as murder. This mistress who lost her snake skin garter whilst dancing with the king, was also brutally murdered some years later, whilst staying at her manor. She also served as the human sacrifice in the seven year cycle.
England's success during The Hundred Years War against the richer and mightier France begs questions for some, as to how this was maintained and achieved. True, the large and fertile duchies of Acquitaine and Normandy were under English control and the dukes of Burgundy preferred to clip their French cousins' wings by assisting the English. But in terms of manpower alone, France could still field much larger armies than England. Even if English fighting prowess and technical skills were enhanced by the Welsh long bow men which balanced such differences it still begs the question from which source did this hubris stem? Yes, our royal family was Norman French and under Henry II the Anglo/Norman empire stretched from the Scottish to the Spanish borders. His soldiers were descended from warlike beserker Vikings and Saxons, so more grit switched to cavalry, which made the Norman knights so effective. Those character traits are passed down the centuries.
Nonetheless, it's very easy to see room for a diabolical pact in England's success in The Hundred Years War.
Though their success eventually failed in the 15th century, after the war had been continuing on and off for 127 years. It failed largely due to fraudulent embezzlement of war funds, general mismanagement and offence given to our important ally, the duke of Burgundy by duke Humphrey, younger brother of king Henry V, who was left in full control of the child king Henry IV after his older brother, John, duke of Bedford had died. Their wives, even former wife, of both dukes, the duchess of Gloucester and Jacinta Lusignan, duchess of Bedford and mother of Elizabeth Woodville, were both accused of witchcraft. It can be said that both the trials were politically motivated to get at their powerful husbands for other charges for which they had insufficient proof. The duchess of Gloucester was found guilty, not only of witchcraft but of trying to use these black arts to foretell the date of death of king Henry VI. So treason as well as witchcraft. She was forcibly divorced from Duke Humphrey and imprisoned. Given the gravity of her crimes her sentence was lenient. A couple of years later duke Humphrey was charged with and executed for treason. Jacinta Lusignap
Butn, with her descent from Melusine, the water spirit and her more powerful connections to king Edward IV, as his mother-in-law, escaped and was found innocent of witchcraft. That was a miracle in itself. She died the following winter of a cough.
My point in extending the story into the 15th century is to show that senior or powerful members of the royal family continued the tradition of links to black magic and witchcraft. Coincidence, or power play you might say but perhaps they were guilty as charged.
Please keep telling us about medieval history. Is so enteresting. Thank you . Sandy
Have you seen the Series Maximillian (German with English subtitles)? Your piece on Edward IV was contempary, his sister Margaret is in it. When he and his brothers were on their uppers they would retreat to Flanders which had Yorkist sympathies at that time whereas France had Lancastrian sympathies.
Margaret's stepdaughter Mary of Burgundy had a tragically short life.
I haven't unfortunately. It sounds very interesting though. Mary of Burgundy - is she the one who fell off her horse, or am I thinking of someone else?
@@HistoryCalling Yes, she was fond of hunting. Her father, Charles the Bold was probably the richest Prince in Europe. Sadly he left his daughter and his last wife Margaret.
Margaret was loaded and bankrolled two rebellions Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck, fell out with the big cities of Ghent and Bruges.
I think it will be a good idea if you manage to watch it, if you can speak German, it's surreal seeing Margaret speak German, or are not bothered reading the subtitles. Being German the production values are good.
Such an interesting story of Joan of Kent, never heard about her. Greetings from Uruguay HC!
I knew almost nothing about her either, but several people mentioned her, especially after my videos on the Black Prince, so I thought I'd give her a go.
I love history especially when it's your own. She I my ancestor! Thanks for sharing this information!
She is such a fascinating figure in history. Thank you for making a video of this amazing woman. ❤👑
Glad you enjoyed it! :-)
11:36 Interesting. I was under the impression it was Catherine de Grandison, the mother of Joan's husband, Montagu. Jean Froissart, however, only mentions the 'Countess of Salisbury', which Catherine de Grandison would no longer have been in 1348, as although she was still living in 1348, her husband died in 1344, relinquishing his title to their son, William, Joan's husband. Crikey! It all makes sense when you delve a little deeper. lol
It's a complicated little tale, isn't it? Interesting though.
Whew! You picked a complicated one this week! I was give out after all that went on with the fair maid of Kent. That took you quite a bit of time. So interesting and thank you for always peaking my interest in these figures from the past. Have a great week!
Yes, there was a lot to her, especially explaining the whole Order of the Garter thing. :-)
It is always a bit thrilling to see my Plantaganet ancestors making history, but it also fills me with joy that a bunch of dutch merchants and poor scots farmers would come into the family tree, it really proves that wealth and status never lasts and most of us are just a mix of royal and peasant, and our health has improved because of it! Amazing that the descendants of the serfs would be part of this line too!
I've been reading about your ancestors and their connection to vampirism. They were referred to as the "bloodline of the devil", the sea goat. Definitely some.. interesting reading.
@sharon_rose724 It's a great legend but it's rubbish. Based on the legend of 'Melusina' who was allegedly a witch.
Fascinating figure and amazing life she led! Truly an anomaly for the times in determining her own destiny, for the most part. Thank you for a well-told history of her life. Kind Regards, Cherie
Yes, it's great to read about a medieval woman who had a degree of control over her life and didn't end up paying for it with her life.
Ha, following last week’s video, another tale of secret medieval marriages. Great work, HC! I really enjoyed this one.
Indeed (although I wish last week's had done better to be honest).
Thank you for all your content!! I feel very lucky to be able to hear from you, as you are a true scholar! I appreciate your time and effort that you pour into each video.
Thanks again,
~Tammy 💛
Thank you so much Tammy. That's very kind of you to say 😀
So happy you did this! I've been requesting! Great job!
You weren't the only one and it was definitely a good idea. :-) She was a fascinating research subject. I enjoyed learning about her.
Thank you. She was so young when she got married the first time. I wonder if they really loved each other, it seems so when he fought for her.
It's a bit of an icky situation, isn't it, what with her being 12. I try to remember that they had completely different attitudes to age then and to when children were adults, but it still grosses me out. Regarding him fighting for her, I hope he loved her, but I'm sure he was thinking about some financial and social gains too. She was quite the catch. I wouldn't rule out genuine religious conviction too. I think he really believed they were married in the eyes of God and she very possibly did too.
People aged faster then as life was short and always iffy as any bad infection or virus could carry you off. She must have loved him to want to go back to him and want to buried next to him. She also produced a lot of living kids in a time when many died young. 🎉
It is so interesting to learn about history from other countries!
As a U.S. Citizen, I only learned about our history.
It fascinates me to no end to learn about times before we were a country.
We are so young compared to many other places.
Thank you for all your hard work and effort!
You're young (excluding Native American history) but you've packed a lot in in that time. I really enjoy a lot of American history and wish my viewers were more interested when I dip my toe into it.
@@HistoryCalling Oh, I am interested in all history.
@@HistoryCalling Thank you for remembering us! As a Native American, Apache/Yaqui, comments like that can be really annoying. If I let it, which I try not to. We haven't gone anywhere, we're still here, brooding.
Thanks for such great research. Years ago, I read a history book which told the story of Joan and the garter as fact. You have completely changed my view of her.
I have always been interested in the lives of mediaeval royal women so it was a no brainer for me to listen to the life and times of Joan of Kent thankyou
thank you, i've been waiting for this one. my line comes from joan and thomas and on through john and queen joan of scotland. i have my family tree down but don't know much about any of them. on the whole, the plantagenets seemed like scallywags.
Haha, yes, scallywags is a nice way of putting it. Then again, you had to be a bit of a scallywag to be able to get the throne and hold on to it.
A short life by today’s standards but an eventful one!
She was clearly always in love with her first husband Thomas Holland she sounds like she was a remarkable woman.
Yes, that's my impression too, though you would think she loved Prince Edward as she was financially independent and hopefully didn't have to marry him if she didn't want to. Maybe he was difficult to say no to though.
Another amazing woman and video! I just love your channel! Thank you for all your dedication and hard work! ❤
Thank you so much :-)
Thanks!
THANK YOU SO MUCH SANDRA for your very king donation to the channel. I hope you enjoyed hearing Joan's story. 😀
@HistoryCalling I love your channel, I just watched your war of the Roses series.
But I love all your videos
I don't have a steady income for patreon , so I will just do it like this.
I was wondering, though, if you could do a series on the last real princes of Wales. Llywelyn Fawr (Llywelyn the Great), and his son
Gruffudd ap Llywelyn.
I don't know if you're familiar with the writings of Sharon Kay Penman.
She wrote a book about them (Here be Dragons).
Llywelyn Fawr (Llywelyn the Great) was married through a treaty with an illegitimate daughter of King John. Her name was Joan.
Sharon Kay Penman also wrote a more accurate book about Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville.
Called the Sunne in Splendor.
I prefer her writing because there is less fantasy and more truth.
Than Phillipha Gregory's books, which I find do a great disservice to accurate history.
Thanks Sandra. Don't worry at all about Patreon. There's no pressure, nor do you need to donate Superthanks of course. I've never considered the Welsh Princes of Wales. Perhaps I'll try one of them at some point for a video and see how it's received. Thanks for the idea :-)
@@HistoryCalling your welcome
I find it interesting that Joan wished to be buried next to her first husband, and not to her Prince. As you said they seemed very much in love.
I know. It's a curious decision. I wish we knew more about it because you would have thought Richard II would have wanted his parents together.
Always a pleasure to watch your videos, thank you.
Thank you so much. Have a lovely weekend :-)
Happy Friday. I read an article online that a portrait of Katherine Parr was sold at auction for a couple of million dollars. It was by the artist Master John. Are you familiar with that portrait of Katherine and that artist. Have a great weekend
Yes, I saw that too. The one where she's in a black dress, right? It's a beautiful picture.
@@HistoryCalling it is very beautiful portrait of Katherine.
She was really quite the looker (despite Anne of Cleves' grumblings about her). No wonder she got 4 husbands in an era when looks were so prized. Of course she had the added bonus of being very well educated and able to hold up her end of a conversation too so she was really the whole package. Can't believe Henry nearly killed her and Thomas cheated on her!
@@HistoryCalling I think Anne Boleyn and Katherine Parr were the two most beautiful wives of Henry. I believe Katherine was the most intelligent even though she married Thomas Seymour.
Thanks for a great video. This is better than a novel. What a clever woman she must have been, she got 3 strong men plainly crazy for her and two great seasoned soldiers to fight for her against anything and everything. That woman was definitely smart and strong. Her seductive and mental tactfulness must have been amazing too. Holland made himself a servant for her, fought nobles during time of plague, and the black prince risked everything too, even making his father get papal dispensation after the fact and basically doing everything against the tradition for her. Lol. 😅what a true representation of a woman’s superior brain in a time where their only chess game was through marriages. Wow
Yes, she had a very impressive roster of husbands. I wish we could sit her down for an interview all about her life.
Witches are bewitching
Joan was a truly remarkable woman what a life she had, thank you HC as always research and presentation superb. 👍😊
Thanks Simon. Yes, she was quite a woman indeed. I'm surprised there aren't more TV shows and historical novels about her life.
@@HistoryCalling yes I think there should be more shows about Jean to HC, 😊👍
We know so little about women of that age or, to be fair, much any women before XIX century. Even about royal women, we mostly know who their parents were, to whom they were married and how many children they did give birth to. It's like most of them didn't have personalities, even though they were living, breathing human beings. Joan was roal, but not a queen and ahe had a lufe before becoming a princess of Wales, so it's even more interesting to hear her story. I wish we had more information on het and many other women of that age. Thank you so much for this video!
Well said. I wish we could get a better grasp on her personality too and on the personalities of so many other famous women from history. It's endlessly frustrating having to view them through the eyes of the men around them so much of the time. Still, I suppose the royal ladies are remembered much better than 99.99% of the rest of the female population, so I guess they're the lucky ones.
So glad you made this one. I've been waiting for it.
Love the photo at 26:02 where it looks like Edward is doing a spot of pigeon-falconry on horseback XD
After your last video, I clicked on A video about Margaret Tudor (mother of Henry VII) and I got to say(...) It's funny how Richard III usuped the throne but it's his brother and not his line that the current king is part of.
Yup. He got his comeuppance in the end and it was still Edward IV's descendants who got the crown, albeit through a daughter rather than a son.
@@HistoryCalling Interesting to see Margaret Beaufort called by her first married name.
Thank you so much for your work ❤
Thanks for this. I rarely come across much I haven't heard about the main historical characters but I knew nothing about Joan. Thank you
You're welcome. I knew next to nothing about her either, but I got quite a few requests for a video on her after my videos on the Black Prince, so I thought I'd give her a go and she was well worth the effort.
Edward was the extravagant member of the couple. Joan and Thomas had lived a very modest life. After Joans brother died she became the wealthiest woman in England in her own right. A combined inheritance from her Father Edmund son of Edward 1 and her Mothers family the Wakes.
But her new wealth was fraught with trouble after the Black Plague decimated much of the population. Many workers and farmers on her multiple estates were dead and it took years to rebuild. Her mother spent her life managing the vast and disparate estate.
OMG, You did Joan of Kent!!!!
I sure did. I'm glad too as she was a fascinating subject to study and someone about whom I knew almost nothing.
Thank you as always!
Thanks Scott. Enjoy the video :-)
Thank you. Wow, she was quite a woman , and at a very early age, knew what she wanted. Quite a shock for those days I’d imagine. 🙏🙏🙏🙏👵🇦🇺
Yes, I wonder how the conversation with her mother went when she had to admit to the Holland marriage. A shock indeed. 'You did what?!' 😲
Wonderful illustrations! What a life indeed!
Fascinating. Though the plot is primarily fictional, it may interest history buffs to check out the 1950s film "The Black Prince," starring Errol Flynn, in which Joan and her children are besieged by the French during Prince Edward's tenure in Aquitaine.
Great job with the video.
Thank you :-)
Very interesting, thank you!
My pleasure :-)
Today's reality television "housewives" pale in comparison to Joan. And she survived all the childbirths. She must've had exceptional DNA.
Yeah, they're just playing at it. 'Medieval housewives of England', now there's a TV show.
About the garter story, I also heard that the straps that held on the parts of armor to the body or together were also called garters. Maybe a reference to the garters that held up stockings (men also wore them when stockings were shorter not full length).
Perhaps, yes.
Thonas and her great granparents #16 thank you for video
Was really enjoying this and it's academic approach to the biography of an important female presence in our History- then there was a prolonged sequence of a young girl pretending to look pained rubbing her head and sliding up and down a wall (?)
I really enjoy your videos
Thank you very much :-)
Good evening to history calling from Bea
Hi Bea. Back to earlyish medieval England for today's video :-)
I really enjoyed today video on history calling
It's refreshing to see a woman of that period make her own decisions and avoid getting slapped down for it. She must've had an extraordinary presence!
Are you ever considering of making videos on old Hollywood icons like Audrey Hepburn etc it would be cool and could be like a playlist in the future for people to see old Hollywood icons I mean could you ask Permission from the photos so you don’t get copyright thanks
I'm sorry, no. Getting permission to use the photos and footage entailed would cost a fortune, I'd never make that back from the videos.
During extentions to Stamford hospital in the victorian period they found two graves said to be of Joan and first husband which were reburied in the grounds .
This story reminds me of "For My Lady's Heart" by Laura Kinsale. I have often wondered if there was a real life basis for the tale, and I think I have my answer. The story is set in the later years of Edward III's reign and features appearances from John of Gaunt, The Black Prince and Edward III himself, among other historical characters. In the story, the heroine marries the hero in secret, though she is promised to another, a powerful foreign prince. Later she recants and Hero sues in Canonical court to prevent the new marriage. It is then a "He said, she said" problem which ecclesiastical authorities judge should be put to a "trial by arms." It is a very entertaining novel, which fueled a curiosity in me about that period, whcih has lasted decades.
Yeah, Edward II's death was a little too conveniently timed not to be sus.
So, Joan's first husband became steward in her second husband's household...while she was married to her second husband.
Hmmmmmmm...Awkward. Sounds almost like you could make a sitcom out of that...Or a romantic drama...Or a thriller where everyone starts dying in terrible ways, and everyone suspects the steward. Only to have it revealed at the end of the movie that it was Jo-Jo killing everyone! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Damn, I need to start writing that.
You should write that. Joan's life would make a great book plot.
@@HistoryCalling I'm gonna do some more research and work something up. I get all kinds of ideas for historical fiction/drama/romance/horror from your videos.
Go for it. :-)
Katherine swineford’s book is a amazing romantic novel and makes for a very realistic romance given hr real life story with the brother of the black prince, gaunt. So, a fictional novel of the likes of Philippa Gregory for this woman should be awesome.
Love your videos!Thank you!
You are very welcome :-)
Hi history calling I am curious are you thinking of ever making a video on the tudors and their religion I mean Henry the 8 religion and his six wives and three children a special their wives because it is kind of confusing thanks
Not a bad idea. It's not on the cards at the moment, but there is one coming out in a few weeks which you've asked me for quite a few times before, so I hope that one will make you happy :-) Have a great weekend :-)
Joan of Kent’s story has fascinated me for years. Some of the best characters from royal history were named Joan
Joan and Prince Edward were raised together. Edward had been in love with her his whole life. He declared before the entire family at age 10 that he would one day marry her and only her. That sparked the necessity to get her married off to Montague. Joan lived Thomas and he had only been dead a few weeks when Edward showed up to press his case. Joan really had no choice when faced with the strong willed prince. It was secret because the King and Queen disapproved. They needed a political match for their oldest son. There is a lot more to the story regarding the connection between Joan and King Edward.
Great Vid
Thank you.
You're very welcome :-)
Fascinating!
Thank you. Yes, she had quite the life.
@@HistoryCalling I thank you for your excellent presentations.
History tends to forget about the strong women behind the men. When we find out about these women I find it fascinating 😊. Thanks for your research and videos
Great point (and thank you) :-)
Ooh a very interesting person!! (I must say she choosing to be buried with one of her previous husbands when the Black Prince expected her to be buried with him was both bad and funny af😭)
Have a nice Friday all :)
Yes, I wondered too why she made that choice. I'm even a little surprised that Richard II allowed it.
@@HistoryCallingIkr!! I would think he would’ve been aghast by the possible slander
I think it shows that he must have had a lot of respect for his mother and her decisions and I imagine that she must have told him the stories!
@@HistoryCalling It definitely implies a close relationship, and perhaps prior discussion between the two. Joan seems to have been adept at exercising her influence on those close to her.
Yes and think what stories she must have had too. She had such a fascinating life.
It's important to remember that age is very much dependent on the times. Teenagers were mostly adults, the average person didnt live incredibly long, and we should not apply the 20th or 21st century norms to the 1300s. I love that she had a true romance and fell madly in love.
I can't imagine that any woman that lived through what Joan had.. could not have had less than an agreeable personality and clearly was considered beautiful, but being wealthy would be helpful. So the stories of her personality and beauty must have merit. Her secret marriages are the most peculiar and interesting aspect of her life. That shows Men must have found he captivating and one would think women would be envious of her but I've never read of any trashing her . Interesting that she wished to be buried with her first Husband ( Love ? ) Unlike Tess of the D'uvervilles' her beauty did not destroy her. Thanks.. I didn't know of all of her husbands.
I didn't know about the bigamy story either, or the kidnapping, but I found it fascinating. It was certainly a dramatic youth!
This woman played a huge role in history and also in the makings of our Royal Family
HC, I propose a miniseries with you as historical consultant!
Haha, thanks Anne. Only if the pay is good though :-)
Thank you
$60 for a book?!!! Yikes!! I am with you on that. That book best have an extremely detailed hisrory of the world for such a price!! Good grief!!
My absolute favorite detail in this is that she wanted to be buried next to her first husband. It seems to tell us a few things. She loved her first husband. She loved her second husband and wasn't with him for status.
It seems so odd to me though that Richard II didn't insist that his parents were buried together, I wonder if there's more it than we know?
@@HistoryCalling Exactly! Or at the very least, Richard II respected his mom's feelings, which adds a layer to the image of him as an emotionally unbalanced tyrant. I mean, Joan seems strong enough to have turned down The Black Prince if she had wanted to, so maybe it was a situation of the first husband was the passion. third husband was the friend.
@@HistoryCallingroyals were very often married in different churches.
When I was at university the lecturer who covered the Peasant's Revolt told us with great joy that in the early 1990s he got his Poll Tax bill in from Wat Tyler House.
Haha, well that would be hilarious for a lecturer who I assume was teaching history. 😅
@@HistoryCalling Yep, he was a medieval historian :D