I was at a huge auto jumble sale in the 1980s at Beaulieu house motor museum and a Dutch gentleman had a strange flat two stroke engine that he did not know anything about it. As we looked at it a German fella came up and said he was a member of the Hitler youth and he was shown how to start a me 262 and this was the starter motor!!! The Dutch guy was so happy he gave us all a drink of some spirits and every one wanted to know more. Brilliant day out 👍🇬🇧
looks like a Shark roaming beneath sea level with light reflections on its back! Amazing technical leap at its time similar to the amazement when the F 117 "Night Hawk" first rolled out!
@@dipling.pitzler7650 The Me262 was introduced into service in August 1944, two months after the Meteor was introduced into service. At medium and high altitudes it was faster than the Meteor, but at lower levels the Meteor and Typhoon were faster. Merlin Mustangs and Mosquitoes with 2 stage Merlins could cruise at altitudes the Me262 could not reach. The Meteor, overall, had better fighting qualities, as too did the Spider Crab. The 262 was by far the more elegant in appearance, but it was not a great technical leap.
Don't forget his contribution to finding the wrecks of WWII era warships with R/V Petrel (tho the shipwrecks are considered "war graves" they are being stripped or "mined" in the Pacific Ocean) r. i. p. Paul Allen - may his memory be a blessing
“Let’s see Paul Allen’s plane…Look at subtle off white coloring of the camouflage; the beautiful thickness of it. My god, the tail even has a watermark!”
You got lucky. She might never run again. The new owner has not said anything to the public about what he will do with this collection. For now it is viewable in Everett Washington.
@@NormansChannel I saw it under final assembly in WA during a business trip from NZ, incredible machine. I also strolled past a hangar on the way to the workshop, the roller door was up and there was a JU88 wreck on jacks ! never heard what happened to that , this would have been around 2012 I think ..
There is a complete, but not running ME262 Night fighter in Johannesburg at the war museum. It is the only original complete night fighter in existence.
God Bless Paul Allen for using his fortune to better the world instead of for tearing it apart. And thank whoever is in charge here for not erasing the swastika from the tail based on some woke nonsense
The starter motors are 2-stroke Jodels if I remember correctly, and had a pull start from the front of the nacelle! Can't remember exactly, but I thought the German Technical museum in Munich has a cut-away motor?
+@spinnetti The starter engine was a simple 10 hp Riedel design that was clutched to the turbine. th-cam.com/video/BGUqV0dl9gA/w-d-xo.html It could be operated with electric start from the cockpit or with the pull cord: th-cam.com/video/ItXgDlSojTk/w-d-xo.html Mr. Riedel's son is on TH-cam and has commented in a few videos.
I have seen the ME-262 and engine at the Museum of the United States Air Force in Dayton, Ohio. I try and visit several times a year as it is not far from my house. It's no doubt the most unique aircraft in the WWII gallery. There have been several flying replicas built and have flown airshows. In the U.S., the only one I am aware of is operated by the Collings Foundation. I was supposed to fly at an airshow I was going to, but a last minute mechanical/maintenance issue and the plane didn't make it. I believe the replicas use GE engines. A running, original Junkers Jumo engine is TRULY a rare thing!
Ironically the GE J85 engines you mentioned were designed by German Gerhard Neumann and his team of engineers from Jumo. The J85 was developed using exactly the same Chromium based alloy that was used in the Jumo 109-004B engines. It's the German inventions of hollow air-cooled turbine blades and TBCs that make modern jet engines possible
The ME262 engines has a “pull start” like a lawn mower engine with the Handel mounted in the engine air intake. There’s a perfect example of an intact engine on display at the Air Force museum in Dayton, Ohio.
All Me-262 engines were started electrically from a starter switch in the cockpit, the rope starter is only used as an emergency backup system. Any questions?
Here in Canberra, Australia we have a captured 263 which i believe is 100% original including the paint. Last i saw it, it was in rough or poor condition compared to this one. Excellent video * After some research it has been repainted in the past
I was always driving past a place constantly in Ohio where the USAAF had one crash into the road in 1946. I did not know about it till about 5 years ago. And the pilot was the first American pilot to bail out of a jet. The exact spot is now secretive as the property owner had an issue with souvenir hunters coming on his property looking for the bits the AF did not dig out.
+@TomShewood-z5l What is interesting about that Me-262A-1 crash was that it was W.Nr. 111711 that taken new from the factory and surrendered to the Allies at Rhein-Main Airfield by Messerschmitt test pilot Hans Fay. The crash happened on 20-August-1946 when test pilot Walter J. McAuley, Jr. was testing the Me-262 against a P-80 and then suffered an engine fire. McAuley parachuted out and the Me-262 crashed near Xenia, Ohio. There are photos of the crash as well as an accident report. The impact location is now on private property and is not accessible.
The Bf109E had two machine guns mounted over the engine, you can't see them well from the ground. Early Es had machine guns in the wings, replaced by 20mm cannons by the Battle of Britain period. The central engine mounted 20mm cannon was considered unreliable and was not widely used.
+@briansilcox5729 The project located about six original core engines and used original and new-manufactured parts. Something they found was that the parts were not always swappable between engines and were hand-fitted and numbered. Aero Turbine in CA spent about ten years of research and manufacturing to build these flyable Jumos, if the plane ever flies. I think the actual plan was for only a few flights and permanently retire the restored airframe.
@@sammcdonald769 This aircraft is just north of Seattle on Everett Field. Part of a unique personal collection of what was the second richest man in the world. It takes half a day just to see them. Also in Seattle is the Museum of Flight. Both museums rank in the top 20 worldwide best aviation museums, some would say top 10. Paul never flew his airplanes or took rides but he made them all regularly fly for the public. RIP Paul and thank-you for this collection.
@@NormansChannel Paul Allen's collection was originally a private collection. Aviation groups were often disappointed when learning Allen had purchased another warbird that would disappear forever. He opened his collection to the public in 2004. But he was still known to be very protective and secretive about his projects usually requiring his contractors to sign non-disclosure and no pictures. The Fw-190 was restored mostly in secret until it was painted. The Me-262 went through the same process in the same workshop in the UK. The Stuka was also done in secret and it was only recently that the museum began the lecture series where they talked about the Me-262 and Stuka. Allen's aviation group Vulcan was very protective of pictures around their property as well.
Great vid! The Reconnaissance Version removed the cannons and that section held the cameras, with windows on the bottom flanks where the cannon shell casing ejectors were, around the nose wheel well. Wonder if any BMW jet engines survived; they were less powerful and even shorter life than the Jumos, so were dropped during development… Thanks!
The enlarged version of the BMW 109-003 called the -018 continued development and production in France and was renamed the ATAR 101... it is the longest continually produced jet engine series in history, the last version of the ATAR is still in operational service today..
You are welcome. I have a visit planned for this museum on the backside of a skiing road-trip. I plan on doing this video much better. Thank-you for your comment.
Yes. We are a bit worried that this collection is heading to Arkansa. Rumour has it some one in the Walton family fancies an entire town of museums. All kinds of museums. The Waltons happen to be from Arkansa btw. Super rich people love philanthropy and charity stuff because the dollar value aggreed upon is then used against their income. It's a nifty way to have bunch of cool stuff and avoid paying income tax all at the same time. The museum moving rumour can be somewhat fueled by Stu not giving any statements to the public in the four years since he bought Pauls collection. We are left to our own thoughts.But gosh he has a cool Corsair...
there is video on youtube from Flying Heritage & Combat Armor Museum showing engine startup and taxi of this aircraft. The starter sounds like some kind of crazy weed whacker
The two guys from Hungary that were captioning the project both passed away in Covid. Paul passed away just before in 2019. Apparently there is an instrument panel complete, done in Austria. The motor has been run. Now owned by a guy from Arkansa. I think he is building a museum. The Stuka needs four journeymen for two years and she would be ready for flight test. Another six months and she would be good.
Yes, the Stuka!!! About 3/4 done, built from what little broken trash they could find. Seems not to have been touched after Paul Allen passed on. I would like to see it completed as the tank destroyer that Hans Ulrich Rudel used late in the war.
@@NormansChannel The new owner of the museum is one of the Walmart heirs who likes and owns other warbirds. I don't think funding is an issue with the Stuka but expertise and time. The Collings Foundation has also started a Stuka so I hope that at some point the expertise will come together for both projects.
The very existence of the Messerschmitt Me-262 is a humiliating slap in the face to anyone who still foolishly believes the Allies had superior aircraft... it's essential to childishly slander and denigrate the Me-262 at every opportunity..
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke the one indisputable fact about allied aircraft was they ran on 100 octane fuel, rather than the lower grade synthetic petrol available in Germany. So I’d say the airframes and engines were roughly comparable, but the American fuel allowed higher compression and more power from slightly smaller displacements.
@@sullivanrachael I'm afraid you point is completely moot. Jets don't need high-octane gasoline. The advantage of the Me-262 is it ran primarily on jet fuel made from coal oil. the other advantage is the engines were multi-fuel rated and could run on whatever fuel was available... including OZ-74, (85 octane unleaded gasoline).
@ - very true. The jets didn’t need high grade fuel, but like all other parts of the Luftwaffe it was resource starved. Alloys for the jet engine were limited in supply and meant short service to overhaul life. The Luftwaffe needed fuel in quantity for training and delivering supplies to the airfields. It needed trained pilots. The critical lack of fuel starved the force. Arguably the brilliance of the aircraft designs were ruined by politics - such at Hitler demanding the 262 was able to drop bombs. This meant it didn’t enter service when it should have done. It meant the Me109 stayed in service to the war end, and the lack of fuel and decent lubricants meant the 109G was barely any more capable than earlier machines.
@@sullivanrachael That is not true, Jumo successfully made the switch from Nickel based stainless alloys to Chromium based alloys in the B model and restoring the TBO life to 55 hours... better than Allied high output piston engines. As is often incorrectly cited, the A models made without Nickel never saw operational service or production. they were only prototypes. Thus, the advantage of the jets... it solved many of the problems you mentioned. And they other unmatched performance, The Allies had absolutely nothing comparable to the Me-262... Nothing. Certainly entered service more fully developed and produced in significant numbers. Allied jets lacked development and performance and were not available in large numbers. They also never shot down a single Luftwaffe plane, a huge waste of Allied resources and a benefit to the Luftwaffe... Allied jets only killed allied pilots during WW2. The Me-262 was not intended to completely replace all propeller driven fighters, the Allies retained prop fighter after the war as well. Yet the Me-109 was the most successful fighter aircraft in history... no other fighter has ever shot down more enemy aircraft than the '109'..
This airframe was way ahead of it's time, lucky for the allies that the Germans didn't have the materials developed for a decent engine at the same time, WWII could have had a whole different outcome. By my reckoning this is the most formidable design to come out of the Second World War, if looks could kill?
? the P80 shooting star (first fly 1944) looks not less modern...The Me 262 was not so well designed as you think, specialy the tail section (at high speed) and the nose landing gear (extremly fragile), and the fuselage was not conform to the low of areas
@leneanderthalien I never said it was well designed only that it looks modern, far more so than the P80...in my opinion anyway. The ME262 just looks fast even sitting on the ground, the P80 looks like they just forgot to put the propeller on it, the straight wing, rounded wingtips don't help.
@@johno9507 I agree with you. The P-80 is a great aircraft, but with a straight wing, it seems an incremental step up from a piston powered plane. The Allie’s had better material selection, and manufacturing conditions.
The difference between the Me-262 and any other Allied jet was it was designed using the World's only supersonic aircraft wind tunnel laboratory during WW2 and tested to speeds up to Mach 1.4 The Messerschmitt Me-262 is the World's first aircraft to fly faster than its critical Mach number. It's fantastic speed performance is the result of its extremely low drag swept wings and tail. It's is the first jet aircraft to feature a electric, fly-by-wire Horizontal Stabilator system
Lets see if this museum can locate at least one of the four Stukas built with folding wings, intended for the carrier Graf Zeppelin ( which was never made operational ) . The four Ju87's were built, the " C " variation, I think , but I've never heard anything about their fates.
Most German war equipment was scrapped for the metals. Europe was scavenged through the 1950's for aluminum because the newer aircraft of the jet age were all much bigger. Demand for refined metals was at the same premium as during wartime. Thanks for your comment
The original Jumo 004 engine design was frozen by Junkers before it was completely developed and as a result will never be safe - even if those on this aircraft have better metal parts than the original. As old as this thing is (almost 80 years) it is inherently dangerous because of metallurgy and fatigue problems in the airframe that the Germans didn’t bother to solve. In other words, if flown there’s some chance that it will suddenly fall apart in midair. The tip of the nose houses a gun camera that’s only activated by firing the 40MM canons. It’s only safe use now is to be a museum exhibit, or to serve as a pattern aircraft for new build Me.262s or models of them. At this late date, this is true of almost all World War II warbirds.
@georgettewolf6743 The Jumo 109-004b engines easily passed the reliability test for acceptance into RAF and US Army Air Force. The same materials are still used in jet aircraft today.
The starting engine is a very high speed small 2-cycle twin mounted in front of the main engine turbine fan blade. Originally rope started, but later by electric.
Can very much understand the taxi only policy it’s not worth the risk if complications arise a complete hull loss would be a tragedy as there is few of these left I suspect
Reidel starters (built into the nose-hub of the Jumo jet-engines) were like the old ski-doo engines we used to putt-putt around on... The leading-edge Slats were automatically-controlled - but we get what you meant... Yanks F'd up everything from flying 262s to operating the 'USS Prinz Eugen' ;) Respect, and subbed eh.
The United States Army grabbed up all the best examples and the poor brits were left with whatever scraps were left over Operation LUSTY and Operation Paperclip were massive and extremely well funded programs, the British did not have the same resources that the Americans did
Its only had five owners and it kept the original paint throughout the fist three. Luftwaffe, USAAF and Ed Maloney. Paul sent the airframe to England for restoration about twenty years ago. It would have been done right. It got sent to Arlington where it was assembled and tested a bit. Then it was taken apart and trucked to Moses Lake where it was put back together test taxied. It needed work to the fuel system so it was taken apart and trucked to Everett where it is today.
There was no standard pattern for camouflage. Camouflage patterns were applied in the field and varied by unit and also changed for the season of the year
Actually these engines were made with Krupp P-198 Chromadur alloy, the high temperature, creep resistant Chromium based stainless alloy which is still used in jet engines today. What made the Jumo 109-004B engines superior to Allied jets was the use of Germanys more advanced thermal management technology. The 109-004B was the first jet engine to feature hollow air-cooled turbine blades and TBCs (ceramic thermal coatings) in the hot section. Features found in all modern jet engines.
@@leneanderthalien All Luftwaffe aircraft engines were required to pass the RLM's 100 hour PFTR reliability test. The Jumo-004B easily surpassed this test
+@mikedx2706 This restoration has carefully rebuilt the Jumo engines (with some new-manufactured areas) and the calculations are that they will be good for about 300 hours TBO if this example ever flies.
The engines weren't actually "designed" to last 25 hours, the original version actually had a service life of 140 hours but used about 21 lbs of chrome, nickel, titanium, molybdenum, manganese and cobalt to produce high temp steel alloys. In the end that was reduced to 5 lbs with cobalt and molybdenum being eliminated entirely and the resulting parts being air cooled rather than simply heat tolerant. This resulted in a radically different rotating mass which changed the engine's resonance considerably and this is what delayed the 004's development more than anything. It was found that if the engine lasted ~20 hours it would go 35 but that range of 10 to 20 was a nervous time. The redesigned engine had a significantly heavier hot section than the initial version given to Messerschmitt for aircraft development and this is when it was decided to sweep the outboard wing sections to bring the aircraft's CG back to proper Mean Aerodynamic Chord location of the wing. While an entirely swept wing had been considered for the original design it had been turned down to try to not have too many new things in a single aircraft design that could cause development delays.
Please do not post false and deliberately misleading information. All Luftwaffe aircraft engines were required to pass a 100 hour PFTR reliability test (100 hours at full power with a failure or loss of power) The A Model engine was made of a Nickel based alloy the B version with a Chromium based alloy due specifically to a shortage of NICKEL. Tests conducted by the Americans confirmed TBOs averaged 55 hours, better than the most powerful piston engines available during WW2. The Me-262 was designed with swept wings, tail and a Horizontal Stabilator system. the angle of sweep was REDUCED to improve lift and reduce stall and landing speeds. (the Me-262 has a much lower landing and stall speed than a P-51 Mustang) The Me-262 is the first jet aircraft designed in a supersonic wind tunnel and the first jet aircraft to fly faster than its _Critical Mach Number_ without crashing
That is a popular myth. It was only the early engines that melted fast. Later in WW2 the Germans began using chrome alloy steel and the engines ran for 100 hours. Keep reading the comments below and it is explained quite in detail by other commenters. Thank-you though for your comment, I appreciate all discussions. If you read all the comments on this video, it is quite interesting and very appreciated.
Actually, Germany invented high temperature creep resistant alloys, Krupp P-193 Tinadur~60 was introduced in 1932. It was developed for the world's first production gas turbines, the BB&C Velox core gas generator which was demonstrated in Berlin Germany the same year. A severe shortage of Nickel forced Germany to switch to a Chromium based alloy called P-198 "Chromadur" Chromadur is still used in jet and gas turbine engines today and is currently sold by ArcelorMittal as A286 alloy..
"The main shortcoming was the engines" and they're the "main" weakness only because the engines really were utterly terrible. Apart from that the list of weaknesses is long; 1: The guns were very poor, with low muzzle velocity giving short range & lots of bullet drop. 2: Add to that you've got a very basic gunsight. 3: .....and it carried very little ammo. 4: It couldn't accelerate or stop quickly, making it easy prey for Hawker Tempests, Spitfires & Mustangs on the long, tedious airfield approach that they'd be making all the time, because.... 5: It had very poor endurance. 6: It's speed made it hard to spot, but the very smokey engines solved that problem. 7: And all of this assumes that you didn't die in a fireball because the kludged front gear strut was weak, a change brought about by the inability of the design to get its taill off the ground, no matter how fast you went. The problem was that moving to tricycle landing gear meant a very tall gear leg & it had to be fairly light because of weight imbalance problems. The Germans & their modern day fan boys who all go "Oh, but if they'd had that in 1939..." etc etc can't understand that the Germans didn't have the Wonder Weapons sooner because they didn't think they'd need them & had no way of making them sooner or in the numbers required & that's even IF they'd been able to effectively make a difference. Only one side had a true "Wonder Weapon" & that'd be the Allies with the Atom Bomb.
The utterly terrible engines produced enough thrust to make this the fastest fighter of the war by over 100 miles an hour (Me 163 not included). You might have been able to spot a 262 but you probably couldn't catch it. If the guns were so poor how was the 262 able to score well over 500 victories in such a short amount of time? "We weren't surprised by how far the Germans were ahead of us, we were shocked" - Somebody who knew a lot more than you.
another comparison is the Japanese who never seriously updated the Zero fighter. They just didn't make more powerful engines and they got completely outclassed as the USAAF modernized every year.
Not the original eng. , they took the original parts and made them with modern materials that the germans couldn't get. This is why the engines failed in the first place. This plane does fly.....
These are genuine original engines from WW2. They were overhauled to original specifications. This plane has not flown since restoration, the owner died before completion.
WHO is making him new turbine blades? I thought the original engines had such lives on the turbine blades they were measured in hours not even hundreds of FH
That's a very popular but completely false urban myth. The Messerschmitt Me-262 has very reliable engines and passed the same 100 hour PFTR reliability requirements as Allied aircraft. Any questions?
That is incorrect, the Jumo-004A engines made with Krupp P-198 Chromadur alloy NEVER saw production or operational service. The 109-004B engines are PFTR rated to 100 hours continuous at 100% power. The testing conducted by Operation LUSTY confirmed that combat TBOs averaged 55 hours, better than Allied piston engines. Any questions?
@NormansChannel 25 hours was a typical TBO is Combat operations, the use of WEP in the Merlin engine was particularly harsh and required internal inspection of the engine with a borescope including replacement of the spark plugs every time it was used. Aircraft could not return to service until these inspections and repairs were completed. Crew chiefs checked the throttle gate lock strip after every flight and grounded the aircraft if the lock strip was found broken.
“Let’s see Paul Allen’s ME-262…”
😂😂😂
I was at a huge auto jumble sale in the 1980s at Beaulieu house motor museum and a Dutch gentleman had a strange flat two stroke engine that he did not know anything about it. As we looked at it a German fella came up and said he was a member of the Hitler youth and he was shown how to start a me 262 and this was the starter motor!!! The Dutch guy was so happy he gave us all a drink of some spirits and every one wanted to know more. Brilliant day out 👍🇬🇧
Awesome comment, thank-you. I was stunned when I learnt about the little two stoke starter motor.
It is a Reidel I believe.
Could you have bought this motor at the "sale"?
looks like a Shark roaming beneath sea level with light reflections on its back! Amazing technical leap at its time similar to the amazement when the F 117 "Night Hawk" first rolled out!
@@dipling.pitzler7650 The Me262 was introduced into service in August 1944, two months after the Meteor was introduced into service. At medium and high altitudes it was faster than the Meteor, but at lower levels the Meteor and Typhoon were faster. Merlin Mustangs and Mosquitoes with 2 stage Merlins could cruise at altitudes the Me262 could not reach. The Meteor, overall, had better fighting qualities, as too did the Spider Crab. The 262 was by far the more elegant in appearance, but it was not a great technical leap.
Thank you and thank you Paul Allen for your vision to preserve these historic items.
Don't forget his contribution to finding the wrecks of WWII era warships with R/V Petrel (tho the shipwrecks are considered "war graves" they are being stripped or "mined" in the Pacific Ocean)
r. i. p. Paul Allen - may his memory be a blessing
“Let’s see Paul Allen’s plane…Look at subtle off white coloring of the camouflage; the beautiful thickness of it. My god, the tail even has a watermark!”
*Huey Lewis in the background
watermark of tolerance, lol!
Nice to see this again, I remember them doing taxi trials on the original engines.
It was being tested in Moses lake to be flown. The future of the collection was up in the air at that time, I was fortunate enough to see it there.
You got lucky. She might never run again. The new owner has not said anything to the public about what he will do with this collection. For now it is viewable in Everett Washington.
@@NormansChannel I saw it under final assembly in WA during a business trip from NZ, incredible machine. I also strolled past a hangar on the way to the workshop, the roller door was up and there was a JU88 wreck on jacks ! never heard what happened to that , this would have been around 2012 I think ..
Magnificent Collection !😊
The place is unbelievable. A white glove collection.
What awasome beauty. As far as I heard, it is air worthy
Yes it is considered the most airworthy original Me262 in the world.
@NormansChannel are they gonna fly it? Have you heard?
There is a complete, but not running ME262 Night fighter in Johannesburg at the war museum. It is the only original complete night fighter in existence.
Thank-you for the comment. Excellent information.
Wow, no mention of where this museum is!! Incredible. Kind of a huge omission there. Especially if you want people to visit that museum.
Sorry, this is The Flying Heritage and Combat Armor Museum in Everett Washington.
it's right in the description.
unless maybe it was edited to add this.
@@joeg5414 Yes but I forgot to mention it when I was ogling this jet
God Bless Paul Allen for using his fortune to better the world instead of for tearing it apart. And thank whoever is in charge here for not erasing the swastika from the tail based on some woke nonsense
What an idiotic and completely unnecessary comment.
@ erasing history is a leftist obsession. Oh and also GFY
The machine guns of the 109 are mounted on top of the engine ;-)
Thank-you
The starter motors are 2-stroke Jodels if I remember correctly, and had a pull start from the front of the nacelle! Can't remember exactly, but I thought the German Technical museum in Munich has a cut-away motor?
This is very interesting. I would like to get to that museum in Berlin soon.
RIEDEL is the manufacturer of the 2-stroke APU starter engine
+@spinnetti The starter engine was a simple 10 hp Riedel design that was clutched to the turbine. th-cam.com/video/BGUqV0dl9gA/w-d-xo.html It could be operated with electric start from the cockpit or with the pull cord: th-cam.com/video/ItXgDlSojTk/w-d-xo.html Mr. Riedel's son is on TH-cam and has commented in a few videos.
Coolest warbird ever!
That's the gun camera in the nose. That's how they proved there kills.
Thank-you
Correct, it’s the gun camera.
I have seen the ME-262 and engine at the Museum of the United States Air Force in Dayton, Ohio. I try and visit several times a year as it is not far from my house. It's no doubt the most unique aircraft in the WWII gallery.
There have been several flying replicas built and have flown airshows. In the U.S., the only one I am aware of is operated by the Collings Foundation. I was supposed to fly at an airshow I was going to, but a last minute mechanical/maintenance issue and the plane didn't make it. I believe the replicas use GE engines. A running, original Junkers Jumo engine is TRULY a rare thing!
Thank you for your comment
Ironically the GE J85 engines you mentioned were designed by German Gerhard Neumann and his team of engineers from Jumo.
The J85 was developed using exactly the same Chromium based alloy that was used in the Jumo 109-004B engines.
It's the German inventions of hollow air-cooled turbine blades and TBCs that make modern jet engines possible
Definitely recommend the Heritage Museum (Paine Field, near Everett). There are several one of a kind aircraft on display.
Interesting that many of Paul's planes are "one off" ultra rare yet others are completely "run of the mill", for example the P-47.
The machine guns on the 109 are on the top of the fuselage in front of the windscreen not the bottom. Beautiful looking 262!
Thank-you
The ME262 engines has a “pull start” like a lawn mower engine with the Handel mounted in the engine air intake. There’s a perfect example of an intact engine on display at the Air Force museum in Dayton, Ohio.
All Me-262 engines were started electrically from a starter switch in the cockpit, the rope starter is only used as an emergency backup system.
Any questions?
@@WilhelmKarstenwhy did the chicken cross the road?
@@dustinspivey2519 because Chickens can't fly son... they walk!
Here in Canberra, Australia we have a captured 263 which i believe is 100% original including the paint.
Last i saw it, it was in rough or poor condition compared to this one.
Excellent video
* After some research it has been repainted in the past
Thank-you for the info and comment
I was always driving past a place constantly in Ohio where the USAAF had one crash into the road in 1946. I did not know about it till about 5 years ago. And the pilot was the first American pilot to bail out of a jet. The exact spot is now secretive as the property owner had an issue with souvenir hunters coming on his property looking for the bits the AF did not dig out.
Thank-you for the comment
+@TomShewood-z5l What is interesting about that Me-262A-1 crash was that it was W.Nr. 111711 that taken new from the factory and surrendered to the Allies at Rhein-Main Airfield by Messerschmitt test pilot Hans Fay. The crash happened on 20-August-1946 when test pilot Walter J. McAuley, Jr. was testing the Me-262 against a P-80 and then suffered an engine fire. McAuley parachuted out and the Me-262 crashed near Xenia, Ohio. There are photos of the crash as well as an accident report. The impact location is now on private property and is not accessible.
Sounds like the photographic cameras were to be used when the plane was inverted
The Bf109E had two machine guns mounted over the engine, you can't see them well from the ground. Early Es had machine guns in the wings, replaced by 20mm cannons by the Battle of Britain period. The central engine mounted 20mm cannon was considered unreliable and was not widely used.
Thank you for the info
The engines are replicas of the Jumo 004, built with modern metallurgy, in Stockton California.
They are not replicas, but original engines but yes many components have been replaced with modern parts.
+@briansilcox5729 The project located about six original core engines and used original and new-manufactured parts. Something they found was that the parts were not always swappable between engines and were hand-fitted and numbered. Aero Turbine in CA spent about ten years of research and manufacturing to build these flyable Jumos, if the plane ever flies. I think the actual plan was for only a few flights and permanently retire the restored airframe.
Where in Stockton I’m over here in Napa, California I would love to see this place. 😲
@@sammcdonald769 This aircraft is just north of Seattle on Everett Field. Part of a unique personal collection of what was the second richest man in the world. It takes half a day just to see them. Also in Seattle is the Museum of Flight. Both museums rank in the top 20 worldwide best aviation museums, some would say top 10. Paul never flew his airplanes or took rides but he made them all regularly fly for the public. RIP Paul and thank-you for this collection.
@@NormansChannel Paul Allen's collection was originally a private collection. Aviation groups were often disappointed when learning Allen had purchased another warbird that would disappear forever. He opened his collection to the public in 2004. But he was still known to be very protective and secretive about his projects usually requiring his contractors to sign non-disclosure and no pictures. The Fw-190 was restored mostly in secret until it was painted. The Me-262 went through the same process in the same workshop in the UK. The Stuka was also done in secret and it was only recently that the museum began the lecture series where they talked about the Me-262 and Stuka. Allen's aviation group Vulcan was very protective of pictures around their property as well.
Great vid! The Reconnaissance Version removed the cannons and that section held the cameras, with windows on the bottom flanks where the cannon shell casing ejectors were, around the nose wheel well. Wonder if any BMW jet engines survived; they were less powerful and even shorter life than the Jumos, so were dropped during development… Thanks!
The enlarged version of the BMW 109-003 called the -018 continued development and production in France and was renamed the ATAR 101... it is the longest continually produced jet engine series in history, the last version of the ATAR is still in operational service today..
Thank-you for the really great comment
WoW...... truly a flying shark
Hard to believe that was my old Army Reserve units hanger before was moved down to Ft. Lewis in 1996.
Love hearing the history of a particular aircraft and its backstory so many videos have a general history but very few give any details. Thank you.
You are welcome. I have a visit planned for this museum on the backside of a skiing road-trip. I plan on doing this video much better. Thank-you for your comment.
Thank you for sharing!
My pleasure! Thanks for your comment!
Paul Allens collection was purchased by Steuart Walton who already had an impressive collection of warbirds that he flies himself.
Yes. We are a bit worried that this collection is heading to Arkansa. Rumour has it some one in the Walton family fancies an entire town of museums. All kinds of museums. The Waltons happen to be from Arkansa btw. Super rich people love philanthropy and charity stuff because the dollar value aggreed upon is then used against their income. It's a nifty way to have bunch of cool stuff and avoid paying income tax all at the same time. The museum moving rumour can be somewhat fueled by Stu not giving any statements to the public in the four years since he bought Pauls collection. We are left to our own thoughts.But gosh he has a cool Corsair...
Arkansas * use your spell checker, man
@@Williestyle-RobotechxMacross-x The S is silent
I'm glad it won't fly. As great as it would be to see, these must be preserved.
there is video on youtube from Flying Heritage & Combat Armor Museum showing engine startup and taxi of this aircraft.
The starter sounds like some kind of crazy weed whacker
Just wondering, but what's going on with that fabulous Ju-87?
The two guys from Hungary that were captioning the project both passed away in Covid. Paul passed away just before in 2019. Apparently there is an instrument panel complete, done in Austria. The motor has been run. Now owned by a guy from Arkansa. I think he is building a museum. The Stuka needs four journeymen for two years and she would be ready for flight test. Another six months and she would be good.
Yes, the Stuka!!! About 3/4 done, built from what little broken trash they could find. Seems not to have been touched after Paul Allen passed on. I would like to see it completed as the tank destroyer that Hans Ulrich Rudel used late in the war.
@@NormansChannel The new owner of the museum is one of the Walmart heirs who likes and owns other warbirds. I don't think funding is an issue with the Stuka but expertise and time. The Collings Foundation has also started a Stuka so I hope that at some point the expertise will come together for both projects.
@@NormansChannel Hey! Thanks for the reply. Now I know much, much more than I did.
The very existence of the Messerschmitt Me-262 is a humiliating slap in the face to anyone who still foolishly believes the Allies had superior aircraft... it's essential to childishly slander and denigrate the Me-262 at every opportunity..
@@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke the one indisputable fact about allied aircraft was they ran on 100 octane fuel, rather than the lower grade synthetic petrol available in Germany. So I’d say the airframes and engines were roughly comparable, but the American fuel allowed higher compression and more power from slightly smaller displacements.
@@sullivanrachael I'm afraid you point is completely moot.
Jets don't need high-octane gasoline.
The advantage of the Me-262 is it ran primarily on jet fuel made from coal oil.
the other advantage is the engines were multi-fuel rated and could run on whatever fuel was available... including OZ-74, (85 octane unleaded gasoline).
@ - very true. The jets didn’t need high grade fuel, but like all other parts of the Luftwaffe it was resource starved. Alloys for the jet engine were limited in supply and meant short service to overhaul life. The Luftwaffe needed fuel in quantity for training and delivering supplies to the airfields. It needed trained pilots. The critical lack of fuel starved the force. Arguably the brilliance of the aircraft designs were ruined by politics - such at Hitler demanding the 262 was able to drop bombs. This meant it didn’t enter service when it should have done. It meant the Me109 stayed in service to the war end, and the lack of fuel and decent lubricants meant the 109G was barely any more capable than earlier machines.
@@sullivanrachael That is not true, Jumo successfully made the switch from Nickel based stainless alloys to Chromium based alloys in the B model and restoring the TBO life to 55 hours... better than Allied high output piston engines.
As is often incorrectly cited, the A models made without Nickel never saw operational service or production. they were only prototypes.
Thus, the advantage of the jets... it solved many of the problems you mentioned. And they other unmatched performance,
The Allies had absolutely nothing comparable to the Me-262... Nothing.
Certainly entered service more fully developed and produced in significant numbers.
Allied jets lacked development and performance and were not available in large numbers.
They also never shot down a single Luftwaffe plane, a huge waste of Allied resources and a benefit to the Luftwaffe...
Allied jets only killed allied pilots during WW2.
The Me-262 was not intended to completely replace all propeller driven fighters, the Allies retained prop fighter after the war as well.
Yet the Me-109 was the most successful fighter aircraft in history... no other fighter has ever shot down more enemy aircraft than the '109'..
Interesting, thank you for your comment
This airframe was way ahead of it's time, lucky for the allies that the Germans didn't have the materials developed for a decent engine at the same time, WWII could have had a whole different outcome. By my reckoning this is the most formidable design to come out of the Second World War, if looks could kill?
That is the camouflage representative of? Looks like a fighter now w 4 cannon
One thing for sure is the research for this airplane had an unlimited budget. This is the one that has been at Chino for many years
Amazing how modern looking the ME 262 is compared to first generation British and American jets.
Interesting the nose wheel also has a brake on it.
? the P80 shooting star (first fly 1944) looks not less modern...The Me 262 was not so well designed as you think, specialy the tail section (at high speed) and the nose landing gear (extremly fragile), and the fuselage was not conform to the low of areas
@leneanderthalien
I never said it was well designed only that it looks modern, far more so than the P80...in my opinion anyway.
The ME262 just looks fast even sitting on the ground, the P80 looks like they just forgot to put the propeller on it, the straight wing, rounded wingtips don't help.
Not sure how popular Willie was with the war ministry by the end of the war
@@johno9507 I agree with you. The P-80 is a great aircraft, but with a straight wing, it seems an incremental step up from a piston powered plane. The Allie’s had better material selection, and manufacturing conditions.
The difference between the Me-262 and any other Allied jet was it was designed using the World's only supersonic aircraft wind tunnel laboratory during WW2 and tested to speeds up to Mach 1.4
The Messerschmitt Me-262 is the World's first aircraft to fly faster than its critical Mach number.
It's fantastic speed performance is the result of its extremely low drag swept wings and tail.
It's is the first jet aircraft to feature a electric, fly-by-wire Horizontal Stabilator system
Lets see if this museum can locate at least one of the four Stukas built with folding wings, intended for the carrier Graf Zeppelin ( which was never made operational ) . The four Ju87's were built, the " C " variation, I think , but I've never heard anything about their fates.
Most German war equipment was scrapped for the metals. Europe was scavenged through the 1950's for aluminum because the newer aircraft of the jet age were all much bigger. Demand for refined metals was at the same premium as during wartime. Thanks for your comment
Try to find an BF109T , its the fighter Version for the graf Zeppelin.
Fiseler fi 167 an biplane similiar to the swordfish, was intended before the stuka for the graf Zeppelin. Its rare too less as 20 built.
The original Jumo 004 engine design was frozen by Junkers before it was completely developed and as a result will never be safe - even if those on this aircraft have better metal parts than the original. As old as this thing is (almost 80 years) it is inherently dangerous because of metallurgy and fatigue problems in the airframe that the Germans didn’t bother to solve. In other words, if flown there’s some chance that it will suddenly fall apart in midair. The tip of the nose houses a gun camera that’s only activated by firing the 40MM canons. It’s only safe use now is to be a museum exhibit, or to serve as a pattern aircraft for new build Me.262s or models of them. At this late date, this is true of almost all World War II warbirds.
@@georgettewolf6743 30mm mk108 not 40mm
@georgettewolf6743 The Jumo 109-004b engines easily passed the reliability test for acceptance into RAF and US Army Air Force.
The same materials are still used in jet aircraft today.
The starting engine is a very high speed small 2-cycle twin mounted in front of the main engine turbine fan blade. Originally rope started, but later by electric.
Very cool, thank-you for the comment
All started by electric from the cockpit,rope starter is only a backup system.
Can very much understand the taxi only policy it’s not worth the risk if complications arise a complete hull loss would be a tragedy as there is few of these left I suspect
They had every intention of flying it.
But she was gearing up for war again. XD
Reidel starters (built into the nose-hub of the Jumo jet-engines) were like the old ski-doo engines we used to putt-putt around on...
The leading-edge Slats were automatically-controlled - but we get what you meant...
Yanks F'd up everything from flying 262s to operating the 'USS Prinz Eugen' ;)
Respect, and subbed eh.
Thanks for the comment
Actually they brought most of these aircraft over to Britain, then shared them out!
The United States Army grabbed up all the best examples and the poor brits were left with whatever scraps were left over
Operation LUSTY and Operation Paperclip were massive and extremely well funded programs, the British did not have the same resources that the Americans did
That camouflage paint scheme doesn't look historically accurate. All the Me-262s I've ever seen were a mottled gray on gray.
Its only had five owners and it kept the original paint throughout the fist three. Luftwaffe, USAAF and Ed Maloney. Paul sent the airframe to England for restoration about twenty years ago. It would have been done right.
It got sent to Arlington where it was assembled and tested a bit. Then it was taken apart and trucked to Moses Lake where it was put back together test taxied. It needed work to the fuel system so it was taken apart and trucked to Everett where it is today.
There was no standard pattern for camouflage.
Camouflage patterns were applied in the field and varied by unit and also changed for the season of the year
Would the engine design be more reliable if the parts with inferior materials were replaced with more modern materials?
Actually these engines were made with Krupp P-198 Chromadur alloy, the high temperature, creep resistant Chromium based stainless alloy which is still used in jet engines today.
What made the Jumo 109-004B engines superior to Allied jets was the use of Germanys more advanced thermal management technology.
The 109-004B was the first jet engine to feature hollow air-cooled turbine blades and TBCs (ceramic thermal coatings) in the hot section.
Features found in all modern jet engines.
I was going to say, the original engines were only good for about 25 hours of flight time.
They spent buckets of money on these ones.
Tested conducted by Operation LUSTY confirmed TBOs averaged 55 hours
@@WilhelmKarsten on test range not in flight
@@leneanderthalien All Luftwaffe aircraft engines were required to pass the RLM's 100 hour PFTR reliability test.
The Jumo-004B easily surpassed this test
Let's say 500mph and 20 hours. 10,000 miles.
Didn't those original jet engines have a service life that was only 8 to 10 hours or something utterly ridiculous?
I believe around 20 , but yes since they had to use lower grade materials due to shortages in the later stages of the war.
+@mikedx2706 This restoration has carefully rebuilt the Jumo engines (with some new-manufactured areas) and the calculations are that they will be good for about 300 hours TBO if this example ever flies.
Actually 25 hr. To be exact . But they could swap out an engine in less than an hour. 😉
The testing conducted by Operation LUSTY confirmed TBOs averaged 55 hours.
@@Viking88PowerThe Jumo-004A engines never saw production or operational service..
The engines weren't actually "designed" to last 25 hours, the original version actually had a service life of 140 hours but used about 21 lbs of chrome, nickel, titanium, molybdenum, manganese and cobalt to produce high temp steel alloys. In the end that was reduced to 5 lbs with cobalt and molybdenum being eliminated entirely and the resulting parts being air cooled rather than simply heat tolerant. This resulted in a radically different rotating mass which changed the engine's resonance considerably and this is what delayed the 004's development more than anything. It was found that if the engine lasted ~20 hours it would go 35 but that range of 10 to 20 was a nervous time. The redesigned engine had a significantly heavier hot section than the initial version given to Messerschmitt for aircraft development and this is when it was decided to sweep the outboard wing sections to bring the aircraft's CG back to proper Mean Aerodynamic Chord location of the wing. While an entirely swept wing had been considered for the original design it had been turned down to try to not have too many new things in a single aircraft design that could cause development delays.
Please do not post false and deliberately misleading information.
All Luftwaffe aircraft engines were required to pass a 100 hour PFTR reliability test (100 hours at full power with a failure or loss of power)
The A Model engine was made of a Nickel based alloy the B version with a Chromium based alloy due specifically to a shortage of NICKEL.
Tests conducted by the Americans confirmed TBOs averaged 55 hours, better than the most powerful piston engines available during WW2.
The Me-262 was designed with swept wings, tail and a Horizontal Stabilator system.
the angle of sweep was REDUCED to improve lift and reduce stall and landing speeds.
(the Me-262 has a much lower landing and stall speed than a P-51 Mustang)
The Me-262 is the first jet aircraft designed in a supersonic wind tunnel and the first jet aircraft to fly faster than its _Critical Mach Number_ without crashing
That’s a lot of details, but those are interesting. Thank-you for your comment
1:02 The original engines last prolly ten hours before overhaul or replacement. At the time suitable alloys for turbines have yet to be invented.
That is a popular myth. It was only the early engines that melted fast. Later in WW2 the Germans began using chrome alloy steel and the engines ran for 100 hours.
Keep reading the comments below and it is explained quite in detail by other commenters. Thank-you though for your comment, I appreciate all discussions. If you read all the comments on this video, it is quite interesting and very appreciated.
Actually, Germany invented high temperature creep resistant alloys, Krupp P-193 Tinadur~60 was introduced in 1932.
It was developed for the world's first production gas turbines, the BB&C Velox core gas generator which was demonstrated in Berlin Germany the same year.
A severe shortage of Nickel forced Germany to switch to a Chromium based alloy called P-198 "Chromadur"
Chromadur is still used in jet and gas turbine engines today and is currently sold by ArcelorMittal as A286 alloy..
"The main shortcoming was the engines" and they're the "main" weakness only because the engines really were utterly terrible. Apart from that the list of weaknesses is long;
1: The guns were very poor, with low muzzle velocity giving short range & lots of bullet drop.
2: Add to that you've got a very basic gunsight.
3: .....and it carried very little ammo.
4: It couldn't accelerate or stop quickly, making it easy prey for Hawker Tempests, Spitfires & Mustangs on the long, tedious airfield approach that they'd be making all the time, because....
5: It had very poor endurance.
6: It's speed made it hard to spot, but the very smokey engines solved that problem.
7: And all of this assumes that you didn't die in a fireball because the kludged front gear strut was weak, a change brought about by the inability of the design to get its taill off the ground, no matter how fast you went. The problem was that moving to tricycle landing gear meant a very tall gear leg & it had to be fairly light because of weight imbalance problems.
The Germans & their modern day fan boys who all go "Oh, but if they'd had that in 1939..." etc etc can't understand that the Germans didn't have the Wonder Weapons sooner because they didn't think they'd need them & had no way of making them sooner or in the numbers required & that's even IF they'd been able to effectively make a difference. Only one side had a true "Wonder Weapon" & that'd be the Allies with the Atom Bomb.
"Can it carry a bomb?"........
Stup
The utterly terrible engines produced enough thrust to make this the fastest fighter of the war by over 100 miles an hour (Me 163 not included). You might have been able to spot a 262 but you probably couldn't catch it. If the guns were so poor how was the 262 able to score well over 500 victories in such a short amount of time?
"We weren't surprised by how far the Germans were ahead of us, we were shocked" - Somebody who knew a lot more than you.
@@biernut8723 500 victories is a bullshit, and most of the victories was about bombers who was very big targets
another comparison is the Japanese who never seriously updated the Zero fighter. They just didn't make more powerful engines and they got completely outclassed as the USAAF modernized every year.
Not the original eng. , they took the original parts and made them with modern materials that the germans couldn't get. This is why the engines failed in the first place. This plane does fly.....
These are genuine original engines from WW2.
They were overhauled to original specifications.
This plane has not flown since restoration, the owner died before completion.
Yup. It hasn't flown since 1945. It was taxing under its own power in 2019 but not since.
Jumo
WHO is making him new turbine blades? I thought the original engines had such lives on the turbine blades they were measured in hours not even hundreds of FH
Aero Turbine Inc in Stockton California. They can make anything.
The Jumo 109-004B engine was PFTR rated for 100+ hours Same as RAF and USAAF engines during WW2..
The original 262's engines were so notoriously unreliable that I sure hope no-one is crazy enough to try and fly it
That's a very popular but completely false urban myth.
The Messerschmitt Me-262 has very reliable engines and passed the same 100 hour PFTR reliability requirements as Allied aircraft.
Any questions?
The original engines had a life of 15 hours.
That is incorrect,
the Jumo-004A engines made with Krupp P-198 Chromadur alloy NEVER saw production or operational service.
The 109-004B engines are PFTR rated to 100 hours continuous at 100% power.
The testing conducted by Operation LUSTY confirmed that combat TBOs averaged 55 hours, better than Allied piston engines.
Any questions?
Yes, what was the combat TBO of a Merlin in a Spitfire or a Mustang?
@NormansChannel 25 hours was a typical TBO is Combat operations, the use of WEP in the Merlin engine was particularly harsh and required internal inspection of the engine with a borescope including replacement of the spark plugs every time it was used.
Aircraft could not return to service until these inspections and repairs were completed.
Crew chiefs checked the throttle gate lock strip after every flight and grounded the aircraft if the lock strip was found broken.
I don't get it. Why not fly it? I would pay to see that, to hear that puppy scream past with the original sound.
The owned passed away while this aircraft was doing taxi tests prior to first flight. Funding was suspended.