In Defense of Gothic 1's Controls: They're Actually Pretty Good
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 พ.ค. 2024
- Gothic 1 (2001) has an unusual control scheme that is often criticized for being clunky, unintuitive, or straight up broken, with its tank-like movements and needing to combine direction keys with the action button to perform basically every function in the game. This can lead some people to feeling frustrated and quitting the game before even leaving the starting area. Although this system does take some getting used to at first, I find that it's actually pretty fluid and responsive once you understand how it works, and actually has some hidden benefits to the immersion that you don't necessarily get with more conventional, streamlined controls. While certainly not completely free of imperfections, Gothic 1's controls never posed any serious issue for my enjoyment, and I believe them to be much better than their reputation.
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RPG Piranha Bytes CRPG Computer Keyboard G1 Classic - เกม
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As long as a starting area is quiet and leaves you alone to figure stuff out I have zero problems to get used to the controls.
Yup, this is a stark contrast to games like Gothic 3 and Risen 3 that feel the need to drop you into an intense combat encounter as your literal very first experience controlling the game. I actually miss games like Thief, System Shock 2, and Deus Ex that had separate, immersive tutorials that you could play from the main menu to learn the controls before starting the game, but that's a concept that's seemingly died and won't ever be coming back.
@@TheNocturnalRambler another example is Mafia 1. I loved the tutorial in that game.
I've played through the entire trilogy several times in these 20+ years, but I played G1 and 2 always solely on the keyboard, without mouse - I find it perfectly satisfactory, and it's a shame that today's gamers aren't willing to overcome the controls to finally see what a quality RPG is supposed to look like.
I've always felt like the controls were fine, just different. People don't want to learn an unusual control scheme so they write it off as bad before they've fully experienced it.
Same thoughts here.
Back when G1 was released, I tried to play it in the computer club. Spent about 40 minutes finding out how to loot first chest (and that time was very pricey for me). Got in love with this game since that day
I think I spent around 10 minutes struggling to figure out how to control stuff before discovering the readme file. From there it was just a matter of getting used to everything. I don't really have any interesting first-time stories apart from that. My thing was mainly giving the disc to friends at school and telling them to install it on their computers and return the disc to me. Since it didn't have any form of DRM they could all play without needing the disc in. I don't think any of them actually played long enough to even join a camp, let alone finish it, however, so Gothic was always my unique obsession that no one else ever really understood.
@@TheNocturnalRambler My best memory related to Gothic is the fact that I did pretty much the same and one friend of mine did try but he never actually got into the game, I would tell him about how cool it is while he would blab about Morrowind (which I also loved but for different reasons). Much later after high school, it happened a few years ago, we actually spent a weekend in which I replayed Gothic 1 and Gothic 2 NotR and he agreed with me that indeed, there is something just special about this particular game.
Also love the fact that youtube is bugged and it shows you posted this 7 days ago. Gotta love youtube.
@@bicualexandru246 The "Morrowind vs Gothic" discussion was especially rough for me as an American since basically no one in the US had even heard of Gothic and refused to take it (or anything I said about it) seriously because everyone was just so emphatically obsessed with Morrowind. There was practically zero media coverage of Gothic in the US at the time, and the few that did seemed generally disinterested in giving it any kind of worthwhile coverage so it only ever got half-hearted "eh, it's ok" kind of reviews that were immediately swept to the side in favor of bigger, more highly marketed games. So it was an uphill battle for me trying to convince anyone to even consider playing it, even after GIVING them a free copy of the game with my install disc. I respect Morrowind and have fond, nostalgic memories of it at the time, but I'm still a little bitter that the industry heaped so much love and adoration on Morrowind while never giving Gothic its fair due.
Regarding the TH-cam "bug," those dates are actually accurate, since this video was available for the last 9-10 days for exclusive early viewing for my Patrons and channel Members. These comments were posted during that period, before it went public just now.
@@TheNocturnalRambler I´m happy that I´m from Poland where mastering Gothic (and Heroes of Might and Magic 3) is literally required by law under threat of banishment and being stripped of your citizenship
@@TheNocturnalRambler Do not be mistaken, I am from the far eastern end of Europe in the balkans and even in that backwater of the gaming industry, the buzz around Morrowind was real, you couldn't escape it on the old forums and it was mainly due to the fact that it was "an american game" and obviously a well marketed american game which was still revolutionary for it's time. The sad part is that where the whole gaming industry gave up on trying more complex RPGs like Gothic in favor of more straightforward games in the style of Morrowind I think it rubbed off on the playerbase as well. That is why both the Elder Scrolls and Fallout series has been on a steady decline and worse has even affected my great hope and dream of Elex in more ways than one. but I digress, fond memories of a more ambitious and curious time in the world of gaming. Maybe once the AAA scene has it's crash like in the 80s we may have a return to quality over just pillaging the wallet and soul of the consumer.
Didn't know that about early releases, as one of the balkan bois it's to be expected but I'm sold now that I am old. You are actually my first subscription on youtube. Cheers and good health to you from the Free Camp of Europe.
finally someone gets it
The ability to play Gothic one-handed is actually one of the reasons my partner likes this game so much, as she unfortunately lost her hand in an accident.
❤
This might sound crass but as someone who has lived and breathed Gothic 1 and 2 all his life since the early 2000s, yeah, I'm going to like the video directly, just for the damn title because it's absolutely true, you just need to use your ... imagination and it clicks.
I second that.
Based keyboard only gang
Seriously. Never needing to take your hands off the keyboard during hours of gameplay is just one more thing that makes Gothic so immersive.
Gothics controls are binded to specific actions and translate directly into these actions. Combined with the learning process, when trainer would explain new movements and techniques for you in detail; to me it only added to the games immersion. Also; since it was my first open world RPG, Gothics controls, difficulty curve and gameplay were my first experience and my best system where I felt most comfortable. So when Elex came and people starting complaining about its controls, me as and old Gothic fan I felt like at last after 20 years I got to play something similar at last. Also Elex has other Gothic vibes
Greatest thing about the controls for me is that you can easily play a 3D RPG on a laptop that you can just put on your lap. Doesn't matter if you're on your couch, bed, hotelroom, train, plane, etc., you get the full gothic experience.
I actually really enjoy the controls for many if the reasons you state. Also, holding a button and then pressing another in order to do the action makes interaction feel more involved and intentional. It's like I've more range to think about everything I'm doing. It's the opposite of mindlessly click spamming to pick up all loot after a fight in other RPGs
Gothic was literally the first game I ever played so it never occured to me its controls are supposed to be weird.
Yeah i dont get it either, i played racing games on keyboard and it was incredibly natural and intuitive for me to play Gothic 1. It was dissapoiting how G2 oversimplified it. Combat was better, especially with superb blocking animations, but everything else suffered from it being reduced to single button press. I still preffer Gothic 1 in that regard and only thing it needs is G2 combat blocking animations and faster/better default animation set. Also i think they would translate briliantly to a controller if binded correctly. Directional input on analog and action on trigger or bumper button with face buttons for drawing weapon. It would be so few inputs that there would be unmapped buttons.
I spent a lot of my childhood playing playing PC games on an old DOS computer that I don't think even had mouse support, so I was used to playing games exclusively on the keyboard throughout the early/mid 90's. There's a hot debate/myth regarding Doom (1993) for instance, and whether it was intended to be played with just the keyboard even though it had mouse support from the very beginning, but I'd imagine there were a lot of families like mine that were using older computers and operating systems that didn't need a mouse and thus never had one, so I as a result played the original Doom exclusively on a keyboard and still to this day have a hard time convincing myself to use the mouse without mods that add-in vertical free-aiming.
@Kacpa2 For what it's worth, I actually experimented with playing Gothic 1 on the DarkWalker ShotPad (see my video review here on my channel if you're unfamiliar with it) and found it surprisingly fun and effective. It felt pretty natural on that device having the movement keys on the joystick and "action" on the trigger, with the strafe keys on the shoulder buttons. Right side face buttons for weapon, jumping, sneaking, etc. I didn't use the trackpad much for mouse-look just because it's so poorly implemented in Gothic, but it was occasionally nice having it there to use in some instances.
The biggest issue for Gothic 1, I find, is just the way the strafe keys work when you don't have a weapon drawn, since it only does that short little side-step, worse if you have something like a torch equipped. That by itself makes mouse-turning while strafing incredibly awkward, and is one improvement Gothic 2 made to its controls that I actually really like. Although by that point I was so accustomed to G1 controls that I turned on the G1 control settings and continued to play G2 with the keyboard only.
@@TheNocturnalRambler Regarding Doom - Romero likes to point out how Doom had mouse support from the start and it's true, but what he doesn't mention is how awkward the original mouse controls were. Mouse was used for turning left and right, but ALSO for moving your character forward and back. And I don't think there was a way to change this in the original game. Using the left hand and WASD for movement wasn't yet established and using arrow keys for movement was very much the norm. And I'm pretty sure that most people, apart from some hardcore deathmatchers, played it that way. I'm sure I did. I only started using mouse in Doom when the source ports came.
@@Kacpa2 I'm pretty sure that Gothic 2 has option to use Gothic 1 controls somewhere in the settings.
I appreciate you going out the way to explain the way the controls work. I still think it’s weird the game controls this way, but at least I can finally enjoy this game as I’ve been meaning to play it after finishing Elex 1+2.
One thing you forgot to mention about how this system works with looting, is how well it works for picking up items that lie loose in the game world. When an item is highlighted and you press the action key, you can actually use the sideways directional keys to cycle through all of the items available to pick up around your character. It is SO CONVENIENT for clearing out cluttered rooms and not missing anything, or being able to skip items you're not interested in. Especially when you compare it to looting controls for games like Witcher 3 which use this ugly magnetic highlight for items (to make it easier on people who use the inaccurate console controller pad), where you will put out and ignite a random candle 30 times before the game finally agrees to highlight the item you actually want to pick up.
FINALLY
FINALLY SOMEONE SAYS IT
THE KEYBOARD CONTROLS ARE BEST
HAAAAAAAAAAAAA VINDICATION
YES
Love Gothic 1 and 2 to this day, I'm amazed that people think they gave bad controls. It's pretty snapy and responsive if you get used to it
I miss your Gothic videos man. Hope you're doing well!
The Rambler returns! Your content is always welcome.
When I understand controls I was really shock how good it was. My first playthrough was like in 2022
Honestly, I'd love to hear your 2024 analysis of Gothic 1 and 2, I really enjoy how in-depth you go with your reviews.
When game was released I hated using keyboard only (mouse sucked). But after 1-2 days it became so natural. It was superior system.
PS Archolos when
This is what i was always saying. Gothic 1 is a bit like driving a car with manual transmission, you get more direct engagement and "mechanical feel" to actions. Its a very good scheme for Keyboard only play. Its when you try to forcefully use mouse in both og Gothic games is when you set yourself for bad time. On keyboard its great. People whould treatt it like a racing game. It's also kind of the scheme that should work very well for controllers. My common practice was to always to bind action key to Q so its easier to use frequently compared to original bind.
I feel Piranha never could make mouse controls right. Gothic 3 is ironicly the best implementation. Its very meh with Elex tho.
Its also one of things i wish Gothic 2 kept fully intact especially for climbing. They really worsened that aspect. }
They only kept it for combat. I very much preffer G1's scheme. I love combat in Gothic 2 for how fluid it became, its one of things i wish people would mode in quicker weapon animations Gothic 2's blocking.
G2's multirow backpack with G1's sorting would solve the inventory menagements in late game.
One of the reasons I enjoyed the early THPS games (1 -American Wasteland, I haven't played or kept track of any after that) is the level of control you were given over your actions. They also kept adding new features that, for the most part, felt very smooth and natural on the controller. There were also a lot of contextual actions you could do where buttons did different things depending on whether you were on a board or not or what type of surface or object you were interacting with. I would really like more games that focus on freedom of movement and combat fluidity.
I always use Gothic 1 control scheme in Gothic 2 and Archolos. Might be muscle memory, but it feels right and in control of combat. The only problem is dealing with groups of enemies, so area of effect attacks would possibly fix that. Anyways, I'm waiting for Archolos 2.
When I figured out the method or purpose of the default keyboard layout it made combat way easier and leveled up much quicker as a result.
Yep.
They're so good you can even play the game one-handed without an issue.
Pretty genius and intuitive, which is why it's even more baffling to me that so many people have so many problems with it.
As a kid, I figured out that mouse + forward can pick a thing, but it took me a month to figure out that the same combination gears a weapon on a character. I was playing bare knuckle Gothic 1 😁, I was dying from any beast, remember how I met Kirgo and saw an ork for the first time, I was so scared I ran to the old camp and hid there. Hung out with diggers and Snuff, talk with Mad, what a good old days, man, such a nostalgic ☺
The thing is, for my entire first playthrough of Gothic, I didnt know you could press forward to attack differently, I only knew left and right lol
Oof. You basically had the opposite of the default Gothic 2 experience, where you could ONLY attack forward and NOT attack left or right. At least, not without binding those controls in the hidden settings window. Must've been a literal game-changer for you once you figured out forward attacks were a thing.
Gothic controls are the vim code editor analogy. There are people who grew up using it as their first game or editor that can't understand why such a small step as lack of intuition in it's design prevents people from immersing into it's fluid genius. Once it clicks, you are hooked.
One thing I like about Gothics Controls is, how they strike the balance between player skill and character skill. If the player is good, it will of course be easier, but you still need to level up the character and get the feeling he gets more powerful as the game progresses
thanks for this videos - i always describe the controls as intuitive as well.
I played 1 and 2 for the first time last year. Before that i heard a lot about how janky it was - from people who never played the game i think - and seeing how you couldn't use a controller or even your mouse, and seeing how awkward the button settings were, i almost refused to play it. Thankfully in a boring sunday i just said "what the hell" and downloaded it. Turns out after about an hour playing it and interacting with as much as i could, the controls became quite intuitive. I love how simple they are, yet rarely feel like a struggle or like you're missing something. In the end it just feels natural, and after finishing 1 i jumped straight into 2 very smoothly.
Of course, it's not perfect, during combat against some of the tougher enemies or when you're attacked by multiple monsters it can get a bit awkward. Nothing dealbreaking though.
Imma be real, Gothic 2 improved on it by a ton.
Not having to press forward, and the attack/block windows being much tighter made gampleay feel 30x better.
I think "Chronicles of Myrtana - Archolos" is probably the best feeling Gothic experience out there.
I honestly prefer the controls of gothic 2 over any other game ive ever played.
Truth has been spoken.
Thank you! your videos cover games that a huge number of players dont even know that existed, if possible would you do a retrospective or review video about Arx Fatalis? i noticed you played it before.
I couldn't help thinking while playing Gothic for the first time that it's probably unique among early 2000s PC-exclusive RPGs for having controls that could be bound to a PS1 controller.
Good analysis. Bravo!
Let’s reiterate that it was simply another “era”: spending two or three hours to read the manual and another half to adjust the controls in the settings was pretty standard procedure. For what Gothic has to offer is still worth the time. Let's remind ourselves that in Piranha Bytes first game - with a minimum of effort to learn the basics - we can swim, swing our weapons, block, cast magic, transform the main character using scrolls, dive, run, jump, climb, cook and roll (the nameless hero or some weed!).
Gothic 1 control settings - are something that seems like made for console in mind
which is not or anything!
i just love that i could launch my Gothic in the past on my laptop, take wireless controller and just play without any weird mods or something
now same story with steam deck
I think the mouse works well to enhance the controls. I always use it when I play. Mouse helps you turn as fast or precisely as you want. Left click is action, so you do the action with two hands. Right click is cancel/close/back, very useful instead of reaching for Esc key. Scrolling lets you go past hundreds of items in inventory in fraction of a second. Once you get used to the mouse, you can be as nimble as in any modern WASD based game.
In Gothic 2 it is the same, or even better, since the inventory is in a grid, so scrolling actually gets you to any item within a second.
I wonder how it would work on a controller. Scheme seems to be a perfect fit for that. With directional buttons being translated onto a analog stick, d pad for inventory, questlog and character stats and one of the bumpers/triggers for the action button.
Gothic got official gamepad support with the Switch port, you can try it
For what it's worth, I actually experimented with playing Gothic 1 on the DarkWalker ShotPad (see my video review here on my channel if you're unfamiliar with it) and found it surprisingly fun and effective. It felt pretty natural on that device having the movement keys on the joystick and "action" on the trigger, with the strafe keys on the shoulder buttons. Right side face buttons for weapon, jumping, sneaking, etc. I didn't use the trackpad much for mouse-look just because it's so poorly implemented in Gothic, but it was occasionally nice having it there to use in some instances.
I don't get the hate for tank controls in general. They are slow, yes, that's the point. It also makes the game more relaxing for me as I don't have to focus on controling the camera. As long as the game doesn't require me to perform complex movement this is fine (Resident Evil is another series I appreciate for the control scheme).
Part of it might be that g1 was capped to 30 fps which makes the game pretty sluggish. However with the system pack/fix installed I think I was at over 90fps, and turning 180 degrees was very quick. Suddenly I could control the nameless hero quite smoothly
Been saying this for years. Also with the Souls comparison. If Gothic combat went away from the focus system, and allowed hitting multiple enemies, it would literally be a proto-souls game.
If only Piranha Bytes had stuck with their engine and kept refining it and the game...
I have never really understood why so many people have this persistent bias against the controls in this game! I have always considered it a valuable experiment (much like The Witcher 1). A really cool one but unlikely to be ever repeated again.🙁
Hmmm... Witcher2. Please don't open old wounds :)
I do remember hearing "mouse not working!!!!", I never had that issue myself so I think that was more people not installing the correct drivers than mouse not actually working... (personally I never had any issues with the controls, the only thing was "targetting" a specific enemy while fighting a bunch of them....but that had nothing to do with the control sceme...)
I think this control scheme is literally committing to an action 🙂 In my mind the controls are innovative and perfect.
Gothic controls are really weird at first. When u get used to it, they are pretty awesome. For me it actually was part of the "Gothic expierience" u get stronger ingame AND get better handling the controls. Progress on both sides is what made the first time playing pretty awesome to me.
But they are pretty difficult for new players cause they are different from anything ur usually used to. No wonder they repell alot of players.
Finally! Someone (except myself) noticed that Gothic's mechanics were made having TR in mind.
you just needed to show clip of Witcher 3 there you light candles unintentionally
The thing i played the whole thing with one hand blow my mind. It was SO awesome!
It is weird how the controls seem to be the last mechanic to stabilize around a sane default.
I went to play majors mask a whole ago. And even though the N64 controller is a pretty close analogy to the standard xbox or ps controller, the controls are just not mapped correctly. Similarly you have Golden Eye with its weird FPS but you have to stop moving to aim? And you mentioned doom, I think it had mouse support but it just was not enabled by default even tho it was the developers preferred way to play.
In general i share this mindset of more natural imterfaces. Didnt know about the specifics of Gothic controls but the videogame industry, specially comsoles need to revise controls. Starting by nomenclature.
Why use 3 different namimg conventions for the face buttons on a gamepad? As an example, it should just be triangle up, down, left, right. And the dpad, arrow up, down, left, right. If triggers/shoulder buttons already have a more natural convention of rt/lt just go full on with the idea.
Same goes for the standardisation of a grip button. For actions such as picking objects use a grip/paddle button independent of the thumb. Its stupid to waste time moving the thumb all over the place when a more logical and natural alternative is available.
Ahhh the days before control standards.
It has always been interesting seeing the community be split on the controls. I've always used mouse controls for the game and it never really occurred to me to play any other way. When I've tried kb only later on it just feels unnatural for me and I feel like the game controls better with a mouse. Scrolling through reddit it seems like a bunch of the people recommending keyboard controls had the same experience just reversed - they learned the game with keyboard controls so anything else feels inferior.
I guess this in part also has to do with when people got into gaming - Gothic was one of the first video games I played as a kid and most games I remember from the time used a mouse. This would be quite different if you got into gaming in the 90s.
I personally acclimated to this control scheme just fine. Gothic isn't a game that requires precision, makes it pretty good for controllers too. (with mods)
It's good if you learn to play with them, I think they're awesome but I see how people struggle with them.
i wish we would have modern gamepad support for gothic 1.
You can make it work with Steam button remapping.
it worked for me out of the box on steam. And the controls are pretty nice once you figure it out
Your content is scarce but always good. Might I recommend that you check out the Sea Dogs series? It's a Russian Eurojank from 2000s with amazing atmosphere and janky controls. Very much like Gothic.
after i started the game like 6 times becouse i forgot that older games don't have auto save i got used to controls very quick and tbh i missed g1 controls and how g1 damage and crits work when i played g2 notr with that wierd 1/2handed weapon skill needed to basically do any damage
I'm surprised you didn't bring up the biggest problem with this control scheme: THE LADDERS.
Most people who try to use ladders end up falling off of them, never understanding why. And the reason is that it's completely unintuitive.
So, you begin climbing the ladder by holding down the action button and then the forward key. You watch your character slowly approach the top. And then, as you reach the top and your character begins stepping onto the solid ground, you are under an impression that you no longer have to keep holding the buttons - so you let go of them. THIS IS A MISTAKE.
What the game EXPECTS you to do is that you keep holding both buttons until your character steps off the ladder, snaps onto the ground, and then goes into complete standstill. Only THEN can you let go without your character falling off.
Why did none of the developers realize that this is an issue?
Then you've got a few random ladders that weren't tall enough to put you on the floor when you reached the top, so even doing everything correctly you still couldn't "land" on the top platform and always fell off. There was one in the mines that I had to cheat to get up every single time.
@@theor1962 I just tested it, and the ladder you are probably referring to (in the pit with the minecrawlers) can be climbed normally, as long as you let go of only the action button, meaning that the character immediately steps forward.
The thing is that as long as the animation of stepping off the ladder finishes while you're still holding both buttons, your character will literally warp into the intended position. This is the most noticeable when climbing the ladder in the mountain fortress, which doesn't even reach the next floor, yet the character warps on top regardless.
I think the only real problem with the controls was pick up and lock on.
Otherwise i think the controls were interesting and unique overall
True I also thought it could have used a lock on feature instead of the automatic lock on, but I wonder if it would have any downsides
i always thought the controls were fine. they were meant for keyboard only controls and they work great. especially for combat.
Would be nice if remake had classic control option, i would still use controler because am use to it but it would be cool to try.
The thing I like most about this game is that I can play with one hand.
Oh yes, honey.... Show me your goods
I heard somewhere that G1 was supposed to be a console (PSX?) game but the hardware wasn't good enough. Don't know if there is any truth to it but might explain why controls are awkward and require action button/combat mode.
finally someone understands it :D YEY
as someone who hasn't played this game yet, I'm not filled with confidence after watching this video. RE4 made me fear keyboard-only controls.
It's really not that bad. I'm not sure how RE4's controls are (were? is this the remake or the original?) with just the keyboard, but Gothic doesn't require a lot of tight precision like aiming a gun to pop off headshots or knee-shots. It's basically the same as using a controller, except without even the need for an analogue stick in the first place. And like I said, as long as you understand the concept of using the action button in conjunction with the directional keys, you get used to it pretty quickly and then it starts to make intuitive sense.
hey nick i know you hate bethesda but i have to ask what is the best bethesda or bethesda styled game in your opinion?
it would work if you played old classic OG Tomb Raiders back then- similar control
these days - not so much
I've never been so early :o
Hello!
It's better than I think? I already think it's great. Must be pretty damn good, then.
Gothic controls are good, people are just lazy.
NOT FIRST! Stupid yt notifications!
Ironically Gothic I and II control scheme makes too much sense to be intuitive
"In a way it's like a crude and early prototype of what the Dark Souls games would evolve into."
I don't know if I'm the only one, but I find the combat in Gothic to be way more fun than in Dark Souls. It is crude, yes, but the ability to combine forward attacks with lateral ones which can potentially result in infinite combos is something I sorely miss in most games with this type of combat. And at first glance, these two types of attacks might seem interchangeable, but they're not really. For example with two-handed weapons, forward attacks are slightly faster and they move you forward which can allow you to reach some enemies even after they perform a back-dodge. However, lateral attacks allow you to extend your combo, so it is a good idea to throw in a lateral every once in a while. Also, if you miss the timing on your forward attack (you press the FORWARD button too early which will interrupt your combo) you can recover into a lateral attack instead of standing there helplessly for 3 seconds. The combat in most RPGs I've played just revolves around spamming the left mouse-button...with maybe the occassional "power attack" or block. This plus the fact that your attack animations evolve as you invest points into combat skills is just...still mind-blowing to me to this day.
In Dark Souls you can combine heavy and light attacks into a "true combo", but this is true only with some weapon movesets (also, in PvE this is mostly useless because spamming the light attack button always gets the job done faster and with less risk, because the individual animations take less time, hence you have more time to roll away...yes, I know that combos and running attacks and roll catching is a big deal in PvP but to me these games are 99% PvE games).
That is not to say that the combat system in Gothic is perfect, because it is not. Targetting specific enemies in the middle of combat is a nightmare and I also kinda wish we got more variability with the attacks, like maybe some counter-attacks or bash attacks. I know that's a bit demanding from an old game like this, but the fact I'm even discussing this in a GAME FROM FREAKIN' 2001 shows just how far ahead of its time this combat system was.
I think there's definitely an argument in Gothic's favor over the Souls games, especially when it comes to things like defense. Conceptually, the idea of constant roll-dodge spamming in DS is ludicrous, as is the idea of being able to dodge "through" an enemy attack due to being completely invincible during the middle of a roll. Then if you use a shield, it's incredibly easy to just stand there and tank all damage for a time, with you being able to get free hits in while the enemy recoils from bouncing off your shield.
Gothic, in contrast, uses a more realistic combination of back-stepping and side-stepping to avoid attacks, and the fact that you can't just stand there with your guard permanently up (you have to time each block to correspond with the opponent's attack) maintains that aspect of needing to time your defenses at all times. Plus, needing to time your attacks to maintain a consistent attacking rhythm and having to work a little harder to turn and maintain a target lock on an enemy can be more actively engaging than DS's permanent, perfect target lock tracking and endless R1 spam.
The big thing that DS does better than Gothic is greater variety and nuance in enemy attack patterns, so the combat stays a little more "fresh" throughout the whole experience since you're always encountering new enemies that require a slightly different approach to learning their animations and timings, with each one being slightly unique. This is especially true of bosses. Gothic has this element to a certain degree but it's much simpler and with far less total variety. Still extremely impressive and engaging for a game developed in the late 90's, but it's not hard to see why DS would be a vast improvement in this department.
One other thing that may be in DS's favor is its stamina bar, which I believe adds extra consequences to most actions with needing to balance offense and defense against your physical limitations since you can't maintain "perfect" defense at all times or have the opportunity to perform crucial actions if you've wasted too much stamina. This I would argue leads to a higher skill threshold for success since that's one more strategic element you have to juggle.
Mind you I'm not saying one game's combat is definitively better than the other's since I like both equally as representative for their time, but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that Gothic did some things better than Dark Souls.
@@TheNocturnalRambler Yup, agreed on all points. I'd say that overall Dark Souls is about how you use a (relatively) limited moveset against the various enemies the game keeps throwing at you + managing your stamina. The enemy types in Gothic are fewer and their attack patterns are more predictable (you KNOW an orc is gonna open up with a running attack or that a Bloodfly will probably try to get around you before spamming you with sting attacks). Once you figure out the attack patterns and openings of an enemy, you're settled. But then the game introduces either stronger versions of that enemy and/or several at the same time. And your previous experience with that enemy still applies, but now you have to do that whole song and dance about back-stepping and actively blocking each hit and not getting surrounded, etc. They both have their advantages and disadvantages for sure. I still prefer Gothic though, because to me the combat feels a bit less reliant on cycles like the roll, spam lights, roll spam lights cycle I always seem to fall into when replaying DS. That's just my opinion though, I can totally see how someone would prefer DS over Gothic, in terms of combat. And yeah, the constant rolling in DS is...a little bit comical to say the least and for me it was one of those things I really had to get used to. I definitely prefer games where you either block attacks or where the dodging at least looks a bit more natural (I'm not holding it out against DS though, like you said it is a game of its time and they definitely improved the dodging animations and "feel" in Bloodborne and Sekiro so...).
Thanks for replying to my post and thanks for the work you put into your videos. I always try to watch any new ones. And I normally don't do this, but I'd really love a second video about Archolos. I found out about Archolos thanks to that first video you did on it 2 years ago and...well suffice it to say that "mod" ended up being my personal GotY of that year. So hearing your conclusive thoughts about it and whether they've changed from your first impressions would certainly be interesting.
yup - the controls are actually very good.
They are BETTER than using mouse. Because in this game you do not need to precision-aim on anything.
You can play G2 with G1 controlls its in the options.
It's only working for combat. It does nothing for movement and the rest.
When Archolos review
When pokaz kostur
long time no see
Give me mouse controls in menus or die
Eh...getting used to controls took a bit, but everything else more than made up for those....
I prefer to use mouse tbh
It doesnt work in Gothic at all. And its at best mediocre in Gothic 2. Really give it a try. Treat it like playing a racing game like Need for Speed on keyboard. Also i think binding it on controller would make it very nice too.
This is interesting, i knew you could play gothic with only kb but playing with kb and mouse felt natural for me from the start, it also gives more camera control while playing with mouse but i think thats personal feeling.
Best thing about the mouse is being able to adjust the camera zoom, and set its position a little higher so you can see ahead of you when running. But that was basically the only time I ever used the mouse for anything.
@@Kacpa2 The faster turing using M+Kb allows you to do things you simply can't do as fast (or at all) with Kb only (e.g. strafe dodge running attacks and then attack from behind)
9:34 That's the entire point. You accidentally attack and most probably get hit as a penalty for mistiming a parry. And the input difference between jump vs kick is exactly the same case as step forward vs forward attack in Gothics.
pc controls
We are talking about the fact that the player has to press two buttons to do something and are dumbfounded by the idea. Modern games have truely ruined us. And archery would not be better with mouse aim in G1/2, that is a complete misconception of what the games offers. It is totally fine as it is.
No they suck. I love Gothic and mastered the controls over all these years but they are unintuitive. If a new player cannot figure them out in a matter of seconds, it is bad design. Plain and simple.
The reason why "new" players can figure out the controls in modern games is simple skill transfer. Since the release of Gothic we have pretty much standardized TPP controls. You've played one game you can transfer those skills to another.
However the controls themselves are not intuitive at all. A real new player will start by trying to move with arrow keys and if you tell them to look around with mouse, they are likely to get confused.
Try getting an elderly person to play a game and you will see what I mean. For a new player - every control scheme will be more or less confusing.
It's because people today are not used these controls.
Gothic 1 was my first 3D game, and I learned its controls quickly, but then struggled for a while to figure out controls that you would call "standard" in other 3D games. When I got Morrowind, the first thing I looked for was a mod that changes the controls to these of Gothic 1, and I couldn't understand why there is none, because Gothic controls felt so much more immersive.
@@Telhias I am not questioning the keyboard only approach vs mouse+keyboard. That's fine. What I find bad design is how you need to press CTRL + UP to perform an action (open chest/door, talk to NPC, pick up item). Why 2 keys? There is no reason why that cannot be 1 key. What is the advantage of a design where you need to press 2 keys for something like that? Even combat should be one key = one action.
@@eatpurrmeow As the video mentioned it prevents you from accidentally stealing things or jumping off the cliff when you did not intend to. With chests it also transitions nicely into lockpicking minigame.
@@bionic_batman That's still a very odd design decision. All of this just to protect against that odd chance that the player might accidentally press a button and commit to an unintended action (how often does that happen anyway), the player needs to perpetually wear these heavy and awkward proverbial bicycle training wheels in the form of CTRL+arrow key. In other words, let's make taking any action awkward every single time, just in order to make sure that 1 in 100 times when the player does fk up nothing bad happens. How often does that happen anyway? There is a reason why this control scheme did not catch on => hint: it's because it sucks. And once again, I do love Gothic 1 + 2 and replayed them countless time but I can take off my rose-tinted glasses and see them for what they are: beautiful but also flawed games. These games definitely had their strengths and original ideas, but the control scheme ain't one of them.